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Re.TiReD
11-30-2008, 09:22 PM
:salamext:

Probably a lame thread title but by that I mean intercultural marriages...

What do you think...Do you think the intolerance we see today....(When it comes to parents) will disappear over time?

Do you think that when it comes to us being parents, them prejudices will have vanished or do you think there is wisdom in sticking to your own culture/background etc and never experiencing the richness of another :mmokay:

Why do you think these prejudices exist...There is no nationalism or tribalism or racism in Islam...so why?? :enough!:

Have you personally married out of the culture and if yes did you face any difficulties/hardships/barriers?

WassalamuAlaykum
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Ummu Sufyaan
12-02-2008, 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
:salamext:
:wasalamex

What do you think...Do you think the intolerance we see today....(When it comes to parents) will disappear over time?
i dont see why not. i mean you just have to look at the past (maybe only as far as when your own parents got married) to see that alot of the cultural trends that your parents grew up with arent really there anymore...well as far as ive noticed anyway :p for eg the really pathetic one where the couple dont see each other until AFTER their married *shudders* lol and where the dude relies on what his sisters/mum think of the girl (her looks i mean) so if the girl is attractive to his mum/sisters, then apparently he'll like her too :rollseyes...aww isnt that lovely :skeleton: :p
btw, my parents didn't get married like that lol :p

Do you think that when it comes to us being parents, them prejudices will have vanished
depends on what the reason for wanting to marry in your culture..i mean i think some people are inclined to stick to marrying in their culture because they know what is expected of them/their other half etc...it makes it easier on the couple...which is reasonable...so if its reasons like that, than maybe not...
but if its weird things like worrying about reputation and by marrying into another culture is a shame on the family or something...i dno...maybe, maybe not...depends on you and how much you care what people think lol...:D

so yeah depends on the reason for wanted to stick to marriage in your own culture, would affect on how you deal with marrying off your own kiddies :D

Why do you think these prejudices exist...There is no nationalism or tribalism or racism in Islam...so why?? :enough!:
because people revolve their lives around what people think of them... reputation etc...well in my culture anyway :p
that and ignorance of islam...equals a disaster:X :p may allah guide us
Reply

Snowflake
12-02-2008, 10:24 AM
What do you think...Do you think the intolerance we see today....(When it comes to parents) will disappear over time?
Yes most definitely. We can already see today's generation edging away from cultural traditions and educating themselves in islam. I will support my son in marrying someone from another culture as long as she is a good muslimah. I can confidently say the changes you mentioned are already happening today.

Do you think that when it comes to us being parents, them prejudices will have vanished or do you think there is wisdom in sticking to your own culture/background etc and never experiencing the richness of another
It certainly makes it a tad easier if the culture is the same and there is no language barrier to deal with. But having said that, it is not vital for a happy marriage or good relations of both families. My sis-in-law is bengali and although us brits speak english, her mother and my mum speak in urdu and those we cant speak to in either language, we speak the universal language of love and respect.. so our hearts understand each other :D. So all is good and our cultures arent that diff anyway.


Why do you think these prejudices exist...There is no nationalism or tribalism or racism in Islam...so why??
Birds of a feather flock together? I guess it's human nature. Islam teaches us to overcome these traits. But without it, isnt that something observed in human and animals? So, I put it down to basic instinct.

Have you personally married out of the culture and if yes did you face any difficulties/hardships/barriers?
Not me personally, but my maternal grandfather was a hindu revert who married my burmese grandma and had a fairly strong marriage until he passed away. In the early days of marriage, my grandma did face difficulties with language and culture and even with the traditional pakistan dress. But given the chance I doubt she'd want to change anything. I've never really asked. :X

I do love the fact that she is burmese, as she's ended up with the cutest punjabi accent ever! My dad's father also reverted from hinduism and married my pakistani grandmother. I guess that's one reason why I've never had an issue with mixed marriages. It runs in the family. :p



wa alaykum assalam
Reply

Tony
12-02-2008, 10:36 AM
My wife is Turkish and I am white Englishman. We sometimes find difficulties in language barrier, ie we both say things that are taken out of context at times. We live in Bradford which has a high undercurrent of racial tension and as a result we have had to move from one address because of weak rascists. Even my own Mother has caused problems and been rascist. I have witnessed people ridicule my wifes accent at work (by other nurses !), all I ever witnessed from the Turkish community is respect and friendliness for us. It is sometimes very hard for my wife and therefore for me too, but Allah brought us together, since meeting her I have discovered and embraced Islam and have been blessed with two beautiful children. Our blessings put any rascism or tension in the shade and if all Allah is asking of me is to be a husband and father in the light of Islam, then I pray He gives me the strength to be a rock for them. I do not beleive that cultural difference is anything more than enriching in a relationship, Allah guides who He will. Peace
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IbnAbdulHakim
12-02-2008, 11:29 AM
^ thats just lovely ! :D



as for the question

course it'll dissappear (when everyone learns to speak english :D)


for real in the future if my kids wanted to marry someone who spoke a language i cant speak, i'd let em... after one sharp soul piercing gaze of "you couldnt get to know someone else COULD YA" oh and afta spanking him for being naughty of course :D (and age aint no consequence when it comes to a fathers spanking)


Assalamu Alaikum


you know what it'll be fun, like charades everytime i see his wife ;D
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Re.TiReD
12-02-2008, 12:56 PM
AssalamuAlaykum

Lol alhamduulillah. I sure hope it disappears insha'Allah.

And I doubt your son would marry somebody who spoke a language you didnt speak...unless he was extremely talented, spoke about 4 different languages and married a French woman who didnt know English (I doubt that's happen :p)

But I too, think the prejudices will disappear over time insha'Allah, but only if I break them first :p bi'ithnillah

WassalamuAlaykum
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
12-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
AssalamuAlaykum

Lol alhamduulillah. I sure hope it disappears insha'Allah.

And I doubt your son would marry somebody who spoke a language you didnt speak...unless he was extremely talented, spoke about 4 different languages and married a French woman who didnt know English (I doubt that's happen :p)

But I too, think the prejudices will disappear over time insha'Allah, but only if I break them first :p bi'ithnillah

WassalamuAlaykum
well if i decide to move to a new country and have a baby whilst there, the baby will grow up in their schools and learn the language... although i will probably learn it too ... hmm...


no your right actually, i think its impossible too.

Assalamu Alaikum
Reply

Sahabiyaat
12-02-2008, 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by TKTony
My wife is Turkish and I am white Englishman. We sometimes find difficulties in language barrier, ie we both say things that are taken out of context at times. We live in Bradford which has a high undercurrent of racial tension and as a result we have had to move from one address because of weak rascists. Even my own Mother has caused problems and been rascist. I have witnessed people ridicule my wifes accent at work (by other nurses !), all I ever witnessed from the Turkish community is respect and friendliness for us. It is sometimes very hard for my wife and therefore for me too, but Allah brought us together, since meeting her I have discovered and embraced Islam and have been blessed with two beautiful children. Our blessings put any rascism or tension in the shade and if all Allah is asking of me is to be a husband and father in the light of Islam, then I pray He gives me the strength to be a rock for them. I do not beleive that cultural difference is anything more than enriching in a relationship, Allah guides who He will. Peace
:) this made me smile, May Allah bless your marriage InshaAllah.
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Tony
12-02-2008, 01:35 PM
Thanks happy it made someone smile. Well done with driving test. Peace
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Sahabiyaat
12-02-2008, 01:36 PM
:D thank u akhee.
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kwolney01
12-02-2008, 08:54 PM
InshAllah people will grow to accept other people no matter what they are.

I will be marrying someone outside of my culture. I am a Native American revert and he is a Pakistani guy. His family was a little worried about the culture differences but after we all met each other they didn't feel that way anymore. Plus he was born and raised in the U.S so that helps some.

I hate hearing stories about people having problems with the families of people they want to marry because the family wants them to marry someone of their own race. This is really sad especially as you said Islam doesn't tolerant this. Islam is a way of life for everyone and we should all accept each other for who we are not what race we are. We are first Muslims.
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Banu_Hashim
12-02-2008, 09:08 PM
I don't think it matters in the slightest, especially when it involves a second/third generation living somewhere outside their ethnic culture.
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S_87
12-02-2008, 09:12 PM
unfortunately racism will always be there even when we are parents
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Zahida
12-02-2008, 09:43 PM
:sl: Quite an interesting thread actually............made me think because i have children they are not old enough to be married yet but the time will come......................

I know of three mixed marraiges. The first a sister met and fell in love with a guy from college. He was from Africa her parents hit the roof. She is very happy now..................

Second i have a Turkish friend who also met her partner at college. MashaAllah his love was so strong that he converted to Islam before they married and is more Islamic than she...........

Thirdly a polish girl who met a Morroccon guy she was working with and she used to come to our Masjid, and sit Myself and another sister converted her to Islam before she married...............and it was the best feeling ever!!!

The problem is our parents..............................:):w:
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
:salamext:

Probably a lame thread title but by that I mean intercultural marriages...

What do you think...Do you think the intolerance we see today....(When it comes to parents) will disappear over time?

Do you think that when it comes to us being parents, them prejudices will have vanished or do you think there is wisdom in sticking to your own culture/background etc and never experiencing the richness of another :mmokay:

Why do you think these prejudices exist...There is no nationalism or tribalism or racism in Islam...so why?? :enough!:

Have you personally married out of the culture and if yes did you face any difficulties/hardships/barriers?

WassalamuAlaykum
Reply

chacha_jalebi
12-02-2008, 09:46 PM
the Prophet (Saw) married ummul mumineen Mariam al qibtiyya (ra) who was from egpyt and ummul mumineen safiyaa (rA) was from banu nadir a yahudi tribe, so enough said!

if the Prophet (saw) did it, we can do it muhahahaaa haa!

i personally believe, that if you say i just wana marry into your own culture, then you have already restricted yourself from so much potential spouses out-there, then on top of that, your looking for or you should be lookin for someone who is practisin, and speakin from what ive seen, in my pakistanian culture, many people aint really into the deen honestly, the pakistanis that i know, aint really into it! so the best option is to keep your marriage choices more and more, dont restrict yourself to one culture! get out and marry whoever is the best, because the Prophet (Saw) told us to marry people for their deen, not their culture!

muhahaaaa
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Re.TiReD
12-02-2008, 09:49 PM
AssalamuAlaykum

Sis Zahidah...Masha'Allah a fab post and beautiful examples, JazakAllah khayr.

I think we will move away from this restricting mindset one day insha'Allah. But as they say, be the changes you wanna see in the world :-[

WassalamuAlaykum
Reply

Banu_Hashim
12-02-2008, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
the Prophet (Saw) married ummul mumineen Mariam al qibtiyya (ra) who was from egpyt and ummul mumineen safiyaa (rA) was from banu nadir a yahudi tribe, so enough said!

if the Prophet (saw) did it, we can do it muhahahaaa haa!

i personally believe, that if you say i just wana marry into your own culture, then you have already restricted yourself from so much potential spouses out-there, then on top of that, your looking for or you should be lookin for someone who is practisin, and speakin from what ive seen, in my pakistanian culture, many people aint really into the deen honestly, the pakistanis that i know, aint really into it! so the best option is to keep your marriage choices more and more, dont restrict yourself to one culture! get out and marry whoever is the best, because the Prophet (Saw) told us to marry people for their deen, not their culture!

muhahaaaa
Yeah, I only found that out recently actually that Safiya (ra) was the daughter of a Jewish chief in Madinah, who was in fact a staunch enemy of Islam and Muhammad (saws). Interesting...
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islamirama
12-02-2008, 09:58 PM
There will always be resistance. Those who grow up in mix culture like outside of Muslim countries, the kids and later generations will be more open to it. This one arabi girl in my community is in love with black kid who is kuffar. That is what you get when you live in the west. But i think even then these arabs and desi will die over a white person (even black these days) before they marry among each other. As for back home, even kids will stick to their own kind when they grow up. Like it or not, it won't disppear.
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seeker-of-light
12-03-2008, 12:03 AM
i think respect for other cultures is very important:) but also your spouse must also have respect for your culture as well it must go both ways.^_^
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Mikayeel
12-03-2008, 12:06 AM
:sl:

This is the cultural barrier that i don't like... :(

Like i will never get married to the women i love because of a different background, eventhough wer both muslims nd as far as i know islam is a way of life...
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Na7lah
12-03-2008, 12:14 AM
:sl:

What do you think...Do you think the intolerance we see today....(When it comes to parents) will disappear over time?
i think it will, if we compare now to say 10 years ago we'll notice a massive change...sure there are people who are still the same but i think this problem is gradually starting to disapear

Why do you think these prejudices exist...There is no nationalism or tribalism or racism in Islam...so why??
different people have different reasons but either way it shouldn't be there

Have you personally married out of the culture and if yes did you face any difficulties/hardships/barriers?
my parents arent against it in anyway, thats probably why they dnt appose my marriage to an American convert, i don't see why there would be any hardships or barriers though

sure we'd hav dif customs and cultures but we hav the same religion right? and it won't hurt anyone to learn more bout the others culture

Wassalamu Alaykum :)
WassalamuAlaykum
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Cabdullahi
12-03-2008, 12:18 AM
Im stuck in tribal mess i cant get out of :(
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Ummu Sufyaan
12-03-2008, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
AssalamuAlaykum
:salamext:

I think we will move away from this restricting mindset one day insha'Allah. But as they say, be the changes you wanna see in the world :-[

lol... but i think the one of the reasons why parents are "anti cultural" :p when it comes to marriage is maybe they dont trust other cultures. maaaybe ...i mean that in the sense that they grew up around people of only their own culture..i mean like they didn't travel much (well at least not that i think so) so they didnt really see other people expect their own town/village, etc...so maybe they dont trust people of other nationalities simply becsue they dont really know who they are properly...


or maybe i just over think :p :-[
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crayon
12-03-2008, 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
What do you think...Do you think the intolerance we see today....(When it comes to parents) will disappear over time?

Do you think that when it comes to us being parents, them prejudices will have vanished or do you think there is wisdom in sticking to your own culture/background etc and never experiencing the richness of another :mmokay:

Why do you think these prejudices exist...There is no nationalism or tribalism or racism in Islam...so why?? :enough!:

Have you personally married out of the culture and if yes did you face any difficulties/hardships/barriers?
Will it disappear over time? I don't think it will ever fully disappear, there will always be some tension, but I do believe it will lessen, especially for those living outside of their original countries. I think it will be just like the US, how before, it was insane for a black/white couple to be even thought of, and it met a lot of resistance at first, but gradually, things got better. Even now there are still people who think each should stick to their own, but alhamdullilah they're somewhat less than they were before.

I personally believe that as long as the two people get along with each other and know how to communicate, culture won't be a barrier. I don't deny that sometimes it's easier to simply marry someone who has the same background as you, and if you find someone like that who has the characteristics you want in a spouse, then great. But if it has to be a choice between marrying someone with the same cultural background as you, or the kind of person you want to be with, then the latter wins, always.

Why do these prejudices exist, while in islam they don't? That's the pretty simple answer of "because for a LOT of people nowadays, culture and the practice of their forefathers >>>>>> islam".

And no, I haven't married out of my culture, but I'd love to, if the opportunity ever arises and it works out.

Originally Posted by islamirama
But i think even then these arabs and desi will die over a white person (even black these days) before they marry among each other.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I personally know of a few couples in which one person is Arab and the other is either Pakistani, or Indian.
In my extended family there's a Syrian man who is married to a lovely Indian woman, and they've got 3 kids and get along beautifully mashallah. They've intertwined their cultures, and it works for them.
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islamirama
12-03-2008, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
I don't think that's necessarily true. I personally know of a few couples in which one person is Arab and the other is either Pakistani, or Indian.
In my extended family there's a Syrian man who is married to a lovely Indian woman, and they've got 3 kids and get along beautifully mashallah. They've intertwined their cultures, and it works for them.
You know a few people, vast majority want to stick to their own kind. Many arabs despise paki/indians and i don't blame them for it. Many uneducated low class paki/indians go to arab world and do menial jobs and thus giving all desi bad name. Many desi despise arabs because they are squanderer of money and think they are better than others. And lastly, both sides are proud of their culture don't want you to marry "them" and abandon your kind.
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Sahabiyaat
12-03-2008, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by J.U.N.I.O.R
Im stuck in tribal mess i cant get out of :(
whats up akhee? anything bugging you? let us know.

mixed marriages...............say for e.g, someone of a different race proposed to you........and the parents ofcourse have a heart attack from the idea,....what should you do, if this were to happen?
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Re.TiReD
12-03-2008, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
whats up akhee? anything bugging you? let us know.

mixed marriages...............say for e.g, someone of a different race proposed to you........and the parents ofcourse have a heart attack from the idea,....what should you do, if this were to happen?
Explain to them why you'd like to consider the proposal and that there's nothing wrong with it at all and that there aint no place for racism in Islam :mmokay:
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Ansariyah
12-03-2008, 05:41 PM
Wentworth Miller?
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Banu_Hashim
12-03-2008, 05:43 PM
No there's no place for it in Islam. But I can understand how parents can be shocked momentarily. For those who are not married... do your parents expect you to marry some one of the same race as you?
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islamirama
12-03-2008, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
Explain to them why you'd like to consider the proposal and that there's nothing wrong with it at all and that there aint no place for racism in Islam :mmokay:
lol like that will fly with them :rollseyes

I know many whose family says: Only our race, culture, nation, village, tribe, cast, and even only cousins!

And if a parent brings a proposal that you dislike or won't let them pick someone out for you that they want you to marry and you say no, they'll say: Is this what i raised you for? you have no respect for your parents, what does islam teach you? i see i'm not wanted now that your grown up, fine go live your life and do what you want, i'll go back home and live rest of my lif there!
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Re.TiReD
12-03-2008, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
lol like that will fly with them :rollseyes

I know many whose family says: Only our race, culture, nation, village, tribe, cast, and even only cousins!
It'll work. And I'll not give up before trying it :)

I'm going to fight it out insha'Allah. Nothing wrong with trying to explain.
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Sahabiyaat
12-03-2008, 05:47 PM
yes they do ^ .....this is all hypothetical people :)

anyway,...im not getting married to a mangy, ill fight it with every last breath in my body.We have rights in Islam! and it is one of our fundemental rights to choose the people we will love and live with for life....buts its tough...the parents just dont get it... imsad
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Sahabiyaat
12-03-2008, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama

I know many whose family says: Only our race, culture, nation, village, tribe, cast, and even only cousins!
yup
thats my lot
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Banu_Hashim
12-03-2008, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
lol like that will fly with them :rollseyes

I know many whose family says: Only our race, culture, nation, village, tribe, cast, and even only cousins!
lol, exactly. It's not the easiest thing to explain to them. Especially in the asian (indo-pak) communities.
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islamirama
12-03-2008, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
.


anyway,...im not getting married to a mangy, ill fight it with every last breath in my body....
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
It'll work. And I'll not give up before trying it :)

I'm going to fight it out insha'Allah. Nothing wrong with trying to explain.


you fight it out? you are a "baatmeez girl" who has no haya, blah blah....

read my 2nd part on my last post :D
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Cabdullahi
12-03-2008, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
yes they do ^ .....this is all hypothetical people :)

anyway,...im not getting married to a mangy, ill fight it with every last breath in my body.We have rights in Islam! and it is one of our fundemental rights to choose the people we will love and live with for life....buts its tough...the parents just dont get it... imsad
mangoes or whatever they are?? need love too and they are human beings
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Re.TiReD
12-03-2008, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
you fight it out? you are a "baatmeez girl" who has no haya, blah blah....

read my 2nd part on my last post :D
I'll explain to Abu that this person, although not Baki could just be the best thing for me insha'Allah. And which father doesnt want his daughter to be happy?

Yeh I've read it, and yeh you're right. No harm in trying though huh ;p
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Sahabiyaat
12-03-2008, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by J.U.N.I.O.R
mangoes or whatever they are?? need love too and they are human beings
yeh, well they can go find love somewhere in the mangoe tree, cuz they aint getn none from me!
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Cabdullahi
12-03-2008, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
yeh, well they can go find love somewhere in the mangoe tree, cuz they aint getn none from me!
Thats harsh! i guess ur not into guys infested with amla oil
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Re.TiReD
12-03-2008, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
yeh, well they can go find love somewhere in the mangoe tree, cuz they aint getn none from me!
Originally Posted by J.U.N.I.O.R
Thats harsh! i guess ur not into guys infested with amla oil
To be honest...I have an opinion too sis Sahabiyaat (obviously :p) and its somewhat like urs :p but, thats not to say you couldnt be happy in such a marriage.
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Sahabiyaat
12-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by J.U.N.I.O.R
Thats harsh! i guess ur not into guys infested with amla oil
and hair split down the middle :D yeh kind of off putting. lol.
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Ansariyah
12-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
and hair split down the middle :D yeh kind of off putting. lol.
lol....
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Sahabiyaat
12-03-2008, 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
you fight it out? you are a "baatmeez girl" who has no haya, blah blah....
yup thats me, besharaam as hell :D
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Cabdullahi
12-03-2008, 06:28 PM
....
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Zahida
12-03-2008, 06:51 PM
:sl:Nice to read all the interesting posts........... Coincidentally did any of you watch the programme on BBC2 about the forced marraiges on Monday??

Back to the topic, this kind of mixed marraige thing has been going on for years, and more kids and younger generation are going for it. There is a problem culturally yes, but after you marry you adapt to that culture.

I married in Pakistan and adapted to that culture or lifestyle as you call it.

In my previous post (above) I mentioned my Turkish friend her now husband used to go clubbing, pubbing etc etc now he is more religious than his wife and adapted to the Turkish culture very well. He has just decorated their house and has put cushions on the floor.........Lovely!!!

I guess what i am trying to say is that everyone is different and you have to give yourself a chance as well as others........................:):w:
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Woodrow
12-03-2008, 07:09 PM
I don't think I have any 2 relative that are the same race, faith or nationality. When we have a family get together, it looks like a spill over from a UN meeting. In my family we have white, black, brown, yellow. There are Muslims, Christian, Jewish, atheist, agnostic, Mormon, JW, Budhist etc. and German, French, Jamaican, Puerto Rican, Italian, Arabic, etc.

I do not know anything except mixed marriages.
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Faith.
12-03-2008, 07:13 PM
I don't think I have any 2 relative that are the same race, faith or nationality. When we have a family get together, it looks like a spill over from a UN meeting. In my family we have white, black, brown, yellow. There are Muslims, Christian, Jewish, atheist, agnostic, Mormon, JW, Budhist etc. and German, French, Jamaican, Puerto Rican, Italian, Arabic, etc.
Omg:ooh:
Thats a Massive varity of races and cutures.....
Id love to have a family like that:p
Although I have got a rather large family...
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Woodrow
12-03-2008, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by XxFaithxX
Omg:ooh:
Thats a Massive varity of races and cutures.....
Id love to have a family like that:p
Although I have got a rather large family...
Actually it is fairly common in the States. You have to remember that most Americans are new to America and for most of us our ancestry here only goes back one or 2 generations. In the area I grew up in everybody was an immigrant from places like Lithuania, Poland, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Italy, Russia, Iran. Iraq, Jordan, Germany etc. We mixed and the marriages reflected the mix.
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IbnAbdulHakim
12-03-2008, 07:35 PM
kids dont go falling in love with other races - save the parents that trouble UNLESS you know 150% they wont mind


anyway aint suppose to be intermingling, but for the poor ones who it happens to before they know anything bout it or stop it (the young ones), you should know that your parents love you more then any man/girl AT THE MOMENT so make them your top priority AT THE MOMENT.


inter-cultural booby traps - heh Alhamdulillah i stayed far clear o that stuff
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Re.TiReD
12-03-2008, 09:34 PM
AssalamuAlaykum

Masha'Allah some interesting replies, especially from brother Woodrow, JazakAllah khayr.

But for those of you who married somebody from outside of your particular culture, was it difficult? I mean the process and parents/family etc etc?

WassalamuAlaykum
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Zahida
12-03-2008, 09:52 PM
:sl:MahshaAllah.................... Do you guys have big house???:):w:
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I don't think I have any 2 relative that are the same race, faith or nationality. When we have a family get together, it looks like a spill over from a UN meeting. In my family we have white, black, brown, yellow. There are Muslims, Christian, Jewish, atheist, agnostic, Mormon, JW, Budhist etc. and German, French, Jamaican, Puerto Rican, Italian, Arabic, etc.

I do not know anything except mixed marriages.
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Faith.
12-03-2008, 09:55 PM
:sl:

Actually it is fairly common in the States. You have to remember that most Americans are new to America and for most of us our ancestry here only goes back one or 2 generations. In the area I grew up in everybody was an immigrant from places like Lithuania, Poland, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Italy, Russia, Iran. Iraq, Jordan, Germany etc. We mixed and the marriages reflected the mix.
Thats something new I learnt today...:thumbs_up
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
12-03-2008, 11:10 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
yes they do ^ .....this is all hypothetical people :)

anyway,...im not getting married to a mangy, ill fight it with every last breath in my body.We have rights in Islam! and it is one of our fundemental rights to choose the people we will love and live with for life....buts its tough...the parents just dont get it... imsad
You can always use emotional blackmail :P Since you have the right to refuse proposals until you like the person, you can simply say that you'll reject everyone that comes along until you get the man you want. It might just work. :D

Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
I'll explain to Abu that this person, although not Baki could just be the best thing for me insha'Allah. And which father doesnt want his daughter to be happy?

Yeh I've read it, and yeh you're right. No harm in trying though huh ;p
Dooon't tell you're dad things along the lines of love or emotions..it won't work! Give him some rational explanation why a marriage to the different culture bro is good. And get your mom on your side, she's the key to changing your dad's heart.
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Re.TiReD
12-03-2008, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

Dooon't tell you're dad things along the lines of love or emotions..it won't work! Give him some rational explanation why a marriage to the different culture bro is good. And get your mom on your side, she's the key to changing your dad's heart.
:wasalamex

I'm not besharam enough to do that :-[ lol I wouldnt even if I wanted to. Yeh I guess, at mum. JazakAllah khayr akhee.

And emotional blackmail, yah turn the tables sahabiyaat ;D

WassalamuAlaykum
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Woodrow
12-04-2008, 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by Zahida
:sl:MahshaAllah.................... Do you guys have big house???:):w:
LOL, I grew up with just my Mother and my Sister. I did have 14 or 15 Aunts and Uncles and numerous first cousins. I believe I had over 30 married cousins when I left home in 1958.

We used to all get together at my grandparents farm at least once a month. The last family gathering I went to was 2 years ago and that was the first one since 1959 I had been to. The family has now grown to over 1000 living relatives. The 85 acres that remain of the old family farm looked like a rainbow with all of the different colored people and all related to me to some extent. I am the oldest surviving male.

I shoul point out my Granparent were mixed on both sides. On my Mother's side My grand mother was full blooded Lipkas and spoke Lipkas, Chinese and Lithuanian. My Grand father was Russian, Polish and Lipkas He spoke Lipkas, Russian, Chinese and Hebrew. On my Father's side My Grandmother was primarily Native American (one of the Algonquin tribes) and German with a touch of French She only spoke American English. Her Husband, My Grand father was predominantly Scott with some Russian, Lithuanian, Lipkas and Chinese. He spoke English, Russian German and Chinese. On my mother's side they were Roman Catholic, on my father's side they were Episcopalian. I was raised Roman Catholic. As a child the languages spoken most often at home were Russian, Chinese and Lithuanian
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czgibson
12-04-2008, 03:32 AM
Greetings,

That is an amazing mixture, Woodrow. Very interesting to read. :)

Peace
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Sahabiyaat
12-04-2008, 12:39 PM
i wacthed the program on forced marriages

i sat there and watched it with my dad and thanked Allah with all my heart for letting it appear now lol

All my dad had to say about it was, **** them, why are they always picking on pakistan, why dont they go see whats happening in india! and besides this stuff doesnt really happen and if it does, so what.

:muddlehea

yup, its exasperating ...................i know....i need a paracetomol..........


ofcourse i will say no ......im not allowed to say no btw.....but im going to do it anyway.....and then...all hell will be let loose.....:) i have such a wonderful life i want to skip and distribute flowers.
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Re.TiReD
12-04-2008, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat

ofcourse i will say no ......im not allowed to say no btw.....but im going to do it anyway.....and then...all hell will be let loose.....:) i have such a wonderful life i want to skip and distribute flowers.
:salamext:

Honey, you're tellin me?! :exhausted

But you know, saying NO isnt as bad as you think ;D Lo0o0oL! Like seriously you know wat you gotta say? Just tell em that if they force you into summin you dont want then u aint guna be happy and then if the marriage dont work out na'uthubillah its guna be all their fault for ruining ur happiness.

Failing that, the sisters section is open for ya if u wanna talk *wub*

WassalamuAlaykum
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Zahida
12-04-2008, 05:21 PM
:sl: MahshaAllah........... and you are the oldest surviving male.............

Your reply left a very pretty picture in my mind especially the way you described it as being a rainbow of different coloured people........:)

May Allah Bless you with a long and healthy life so that you may relate some of the stories to your grandchildren. Ameen. Summ Ameen.:):w:
Originally Posted by Woodrow
LOL, I grew up with just my Mother and my Sister. I did have 14 or 15 Aunts and Uncles and numerous first cousins. I believe I had over 30 married cousins when I left home in 1958.

We used to all get together at my grandparents farm at least once a month. The last family gathering I went to was 2 years ago and that was the first one since 1959 I had been to. The family has now grown to over 1000 living relatives. The 85 acres that remain of the old family farm looked like a rainbow with all of the different colored people and all related to me to some extent. I am the oldest surviving male.

I shoul point out my Granparent were mixed on both sides. On my Mother's side My grand mother was full blooded Lipkas and spoke Lipkas, Chinese and Lithuanian. My Grand father was Russian, Polish and Lipkas He spoke Lipkas, Russian, Chinese and Hebrew. On my Father's side My Grandmother was primarily Native American (one of the Algonquin tribes) and German with a touch of French She only spoke American English. Her Husband, My Grand father was predominantly Scott with some Russian, Lithuanian, Lipkas and Chinese. He spoke English, Russian German and Chinese. On my mother's side they were Roman Catholic, on my father's side they were Episcopalian. I was raised Roman Catholic. As a child the languages spoken most often at home were Russian, Chinese and Lithuanian
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
12-04-2008, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
ofcourse i will say no ......im not allowed to say no btw.....but im going to do it anyway.....and then...all hell will be let loose.....:) i have such a wonderful life i want to skip and distribute flowers.
The Shariah gives you the right to say no - and saying no doesn't entail disobedience to parents. Just be wise in the way you say it. :thumbs_up
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Al-Zaara
12-04-2008, 05:59 PM
Selam aleykum,

It's with a heavy heart I read how some of you gals 'can't say No"'... It's just so saddening, it's wrong in every way possible. InshaAllah things will become better for you!

Elhamdulillah, my parents aren't like that and I have been raised to always have a choice.

I think I'd be very open to the idea of marrying someone outside my culture, it would require lots of work to make the relationship strong and working. Like any other marriage, just that it would feel more challenging when you meet a whole new culture. I already speak 5 languages and have come in touch with many cultures, and I'm not even nearly satisfied, I wanna know more languages, more different kinds of people, see more places... I love mixed (cultures, races) families and marriages. :D
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Re.TiReD
12-04-2008, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara

I think I'd be very open to the idea of marrying someone outside my culture, it would require lots of work to make the relationship strong and working. Like any other marriage, just that it would feel more challenging when you meet a whole new culture. I already speak 5 languages and have come in touch with many cultures, and I'm not even nearly satisfied, I wanna know more languages, more different kinds of people, see more places... I love mixed (cultures, races) families and marriages. :D
:wasalamex

Masha'Allah thats fab ^^

Some cultures and the lifestyles are just so rich its amazing masha'Allah.

I think the only prob for me would be doing something wrong by mistake and insulting the elders :exhausted because every culture has diff things they regard as right or wrong. Like seriously, it's scary. I imagine there'd be a list of do's and dont but insha'Allah get used to it :p
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Soulja Girl
12-04-2008, 06:03 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Yanoorah
Wentworth Miller?
^Whats Wentworth Miller got to do wiv this topic sis? :hmm:

:w:
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Ansariyah
12-04-2008, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Crazy_Lady
:sl:



^Whats Wentworth Miller got to do wiv this topic sis? :hmm:

:w:
:w:

Everything. I've never heard anyone who's as mixed as he is.

His father is African-American,Jamaican,German,English,Jewish/ (mother: Russian,French,Dutch,Syrian,Lebanese.
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Ummu Sufyaan
12-06-2008, 07:21 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
I'll explain to Abu that this person, although not Baki could just be the best thing for me insha'Allah. And which father doesnt want his daughter to be happy?
LOL...it took me a while to get what baki meant ;D
lol but i think away to convince him is to look at it logically, ask him what you've got to lose...i mean you usually do background checks yeh...and by that you can usually tell if the dude/dudette is good/bad...so yeah if i were in your shoes, i would explain that we would have nothing to loose because you do your research and find out the dude is good--->then you take the next step...
OR you do you background check and find put the dude isnt suitable--->go your separate ways...

and i agree with bro abu sayyad, esp the bolded part:
Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
:sl:
Dooon't tell you're dad things along the lines of love or emotions..it won't work! Give him some rational explanation why a marriage to the different culture bro is good. And get your mom on your side, she's the key to changing your dad's heart.
:thumbs_up


okay back OT...just had to add that :-[ :D
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Intisar
12-06-2008, 07:32 AM
:sl: I don't wanna marry outta my culture, too much trouble and I find people of my culture more easier to get a long with. Inshaa'Allaah I want my children to grow up knowing their language, and usually with the kids being half something else, Islamically they take the father's side. So if I were a man, I might consider it, but I just find being with a person who comes from the same background, speaks the same language, and generally understands you better makes a marriage that much more easier.

I don't understand why people think that breaking cultural barriers actually makes a marriage easier. That's completely flawed and wrong, in most cases there are many hardships that come along with it and as with anything it's very hard to remain patient.

For others, I say go for it, as for me, no thanks I'd rather stick with my own culture.

And no, I'm not doing it to please my parents, but because I've witnessed some things and I just feel strongly about keeping it in my culture. :)
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Al-Zaara
12-06-2008, 08:37 AM
Selam aleykum, sis

That's cool, your opinion is competely valid! Though I didn't understand this:
Inshaa'Allaah I want my children to grow up knowing their language, and usually with the kids being half something else, Islamically they take the father's side.
Their father's side about what?
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Olive
12-06-2008, 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
:w:

Everything. I've never heard anyone who's as mixed as he is.

His father is African-American,Jamaican,German,English,Jewish/ (mother: Russian,French,Dutch,Syrian,Lebanese.
Woah... :X

How is that possible? :skeleton:
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Woodrow
12-06-2008, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Hanz
Woah... :X

How is that possible? :skeleton:
If each of a persons parents is a different nationality, the person is equal parts of 2 different nationality. If the Grand parents were each of a different nationaily the person is of 4 nationality, if the Great Grand parents were of different nationality you have a minimum mixture of 8 nationalities.

Then think in terms of the grandparents and great grandparents being of mixed nationality and the number of inherited cultures becomes staggering.

This is often the case here in America. America is a mixture of inherited cultures and races, there is no true American race or Culture except for the Native American people, which are very few left.
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Olive
12-06-2008, 03:05 PM
Oh... I get it now. Thnx :p
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Re.TiReD
12-06-2008, 08:24 PM
LOL...it took me a while to get what baki meant ;D
Ureedu bebsitayn wa Bizza :p

lol but i think away to convince him is to look at it logically, ask him what you've got to lose...i mean you usually do background checks yeh...and by that you can usually tell if the dude/dudette is good/bad...so yeah if i were in your shoes, i would explain that we would have nothing to loose because you do your research and find out the dude is good--->then you take the next step...
OR you do you background check and find put the dude isnt suitable--->go your separate ways...
PM coming your way insha'Allah honey.

and i agree with bro abu sayyad, esp the bolded part:

:thumbs_up
I'd rather be bonked repeatedly over the head by baa than say something like that to Abu so I'm alright there :p lol :-[
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Intisar
12-07-2008, 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Selam aleykum, sis

That's cool, your opinion is competely valid! Though I didn't understand this:

Their father's side about what?
:w: Well in Islam you are what your father is, according to lineage. So if I were to get married to a man from another race I'm afraid that it'd be harder for them to learn my language. They'd just follow their fathers. I'd rather be married to someone of the same culture, so that his does not override mine since we are of the same culture. Fahamtu? :)
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S_87
12-07-2008, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
I'll explain to Abu that this person, although not Baki could just be the best thing for me insha'Allah. And which father doesnt want his daughter to be happy?

Yeh I've read it, and yeh you're right. No harm in trying though huh ;p
and if you get a reply saying youre thinking with your heart and how do you know they will be the best person for you then let me know :p

inshaAllah your father will accept, after all your cultures are similirish right and u both live in the same country so its not near impossible to find out about him inshaAllah.
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Re.TiReD
12-07-2008, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by amani
and if you get a reply saying youre thinking with your heart and how do you know they will be the best person for you then let me know :p

inshaAllah your father will accept, after all your cultures are similirish right and u both live in the same country so its not near impossible to find out about him inshaAllah.
Abuuuuu....what have I got to lose? Like seriously, where's the harm in actually considering this bro? Not like I wanna marry yet anyway, I wanna complete my degree....So lets look into it insha'Allah. I'll make Istikharah and thats it....1...2..3....Bismillah!

Woooooooooot! :p

But for real, I doubt he'll say that....He might comment on the cultures though buuutt...That bridge has yet to come :p

WassalamuAlaykum
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Al-Zaara
12-07-2008, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ameena*
:w: Well in Islam you are what your father is, according to lineage. So if I were to get married to a man from another race I'm afraid that it'd be harder for them to learn my language. They'd just follow their fathers. I'd rather be married to someone of the same culture, so that his does not override mine since we are of the same culture. Fahamtu? :)
That's definitely not the case, those things are predominantly decided according to the culture. I do not speak Turkish, which is my father's language. I speak Albanian, my mother's. That's why I'm a mixture, I have both cultures, and not only that, but Finnish and Swedish too 'cause I've been raised here. It's up to the parents what they do!

It's deffo not "Islamic", 'cause sometimes people mix what is Arabic or whatever else, to be "Islamic" too. =)
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Re.TiReD
12-07-2008, 10:26 PM
AssalamuAlaykum

I agree with you Al-Zaara.

Plus, maybe I'm just being naive but I think there'd have to be some sort of mutual agreement between the both of you and he wouldnt necassarily force his language on the children. Wallahu A'lam. That's @ Ameena, I mean you could come to some sort of agreement. Language doesnt have to be a barrier.

WassalamuAlaykum
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Woodrow
12-08-2008, 03:13 AM
I keep thinking of my youngest daughter when she got married 25 or so years ago. Her husband did not speak English he only spoke Urdu, Bengali, Hindi, German and Farsi. My daughter only spoke English, Arabic, and Spanish plus a little Vietnamese.

We all predicted a disaster. So far they are still married and the kids are almost normal, but they speak, English, Urdu and Spanish. Urdu is what is spoken in the home. My daughter did learn Urdu.

Of course all of them are familiar with Qur'anic Arabic and my Grandson is doing his best to be a Hafiz before he reaches 10 years old.
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Intisar
12-08-2008, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Amatul Wadud
AssalamuAlaykum

I agree with you Al-Zaara.

Plus, maybe I'm just being naive but I think there'd have to be some sort of mutual agreement between the both of you and he wouldnt necassarily force his language on the children. Wallahu A'lam. That's @ Ameena, I mean you could come to some sort of agreement. Language doesnt have to be a barrier.

WassalamuAlaykum
:w: I am a bit stubborn when it comes to interracial marriage, for myself, so I wouldn't even wanna come across that problem at all. I'ma stick to my own culture inshaa'Allaah. :)

Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
That's definitely not the case, those things are predominantly decided according to the culture. I do not speak Turkish, which is my father's language. I speak Albanian, my mother's. That's why I'm a mixture, I have both cultures, and not only that, but Finnish and Swedish too 'cause I've been raised here. It's up to the parents what they do!

It's deffo not "Islamic", 'cause sometimes people mix what is Arabic or whatever else, to be "Islamic" too. =)
I don't get what you mean by this? Do you mean following your father's lineage is not ''Islamic'', cause it definitely is. According to Islam, you are what your father is.
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Al-Zaara
12-08-2008, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Ameena*
I don't get what you mean by this? Do you mean following your father's lineage is not ''Islamic'', cause it definitely is. According to Islam, you are what your father is.
Sister, what you are saying is, "Islamically", if my father is an black American and my mother is an white English, then I'm a black American girl, completely not caring what my mother's lineage is? Is that what you are saying?
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islamirama
12-08-2008, 07:50 PM
Culture and nationalism has divided this ummah. People stick to their own culture like there's no tomorrow, i got news for you people. All of your culture isn't so great, and has many shirkful things in it. Quit being slaves of your culture and become slaves of Islam. Until you learn to accept others like your own, you'll never be true believers. No wonder i hate arabs, desi, and so many other ignorant cultural fools.
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Intisar
12-08-2008, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Sister, what you are saying is, "Islamically", if my father is an black American and my mother is an white English, then I'm a black American girl, completely not caring what my mother's lineage is? Is that what you are saying?
:sl: You are islamically considered black, you're not disregarding your mother's lineage, you just follow that of your fathers. :)
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Al-Zaara
12-09-2008, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Ameena*
:sl: You are islamically considered black, you're not disregarding your mother's lineage, you just follow that of your fathers. :)
Aleykum selam we rahmetallahu,

Wha... Are you serious? Does that even sound fair/sane to you? I know Islam is logical and that isn't. That's something completely new to me and very alien, that's not what I have been taught at all. First time I even heard of it. :S
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Whatsthepoint
12-09-2008, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ameena*
:sl: You are islamically considered black, you're not disregarding your mother's lineage, you just follow that of your fathers. :)
There was this black guy, married a white woman, had a son, who according to you would be considered black. He then married a woman, had a son, who according to what you say would also be considered black. The line could go on and on, a completely white child would be considered black.
Doesn't make to much sense to me..
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Intisar
12-09-2008, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Aleykum selam we rahmetallahu,

Wha... Are you serious? Does that even sound fair/sane to you? I know Islam is logical and that isn't. That's something completely new to me and very alien, that's not what I have been taught at all. First time I even heard of it. :S
With all due respect sister, Islam is not supposed to be logical and it does not depend on whether you think parts of it are ''alien'' or not. That's just the way it is. :)
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Al-Zaara
12-09-2008, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Ameena*
With all due respect sister, Islam is not supposed to be logical and it does not depend on whether you think it's ''alien'' or not. That's just the way it is. :)
In many cases Islam is logical and fair in many levels, that what you told me just sounds like racism or even nationalism, which islam is suppoused to be withot. Proove it to me then, tell me who told you this and what evidence they put forth. I am going to ask my teacher inshaAllah, I am quite willing to learn and wanna know what I have missed, 'cause that's quite big.
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Intisar
12-09-2008, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
In many cases Islam is logical and fair in many levels, that what you told me just sounds like racism or even nationalism, which islam is suppoused to be withot. Proove it to me then, tell me who told you this and what evidence they put forth. I am going to ask my teacher inshaAllah, I am quite willing to learn and wanna know what I have missed, 'cause that's quite big.
How is it unfair to be considered what your father is? And who says you disregard what your mother is? Nobody, you just put that into the equation.

Islam = father's lineage
Judaism = mother's lineage.

In most cultures, the tribe is carried on by the males side, so if he gives birth to daughters, then she will be what her father is. The boy carries on the tribes name, or the family name, that's why you see boys being so prized in many cultures because no matter who they marry their kids will be their tribe. As for the daughters, they're usually given a man, most likely of the same tribe, so she can give birth to kids that will carry on her tribes name. Sometimes though, a woman is disowned because she ''married out of her tribe''. And why is that? Because the kids won't be of lineage, but of her husbands.

This has nothing to do with nationalism or racism, who says one feels superior to another person or hates another person based on race or nationality? Lol, you're just following your father's lineage (I think the word you were actually looking for was ''tribalism'', but even so, that doesn't
fit what we're talking about). ;)
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Whatsthepoint
12-09-2008, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Ameena*
How is it unfair to be considered what your father is? And who says you disregard what your mother is? Nobody, you just put that into the equation.

Islam = father's lineage
Judaism = mother's lineage.

In most cultures, the tribe is carried on by the males side, so if he gives birth to daughters, then she will be what her father is. The boy carries on the tribes name, or the family name, that's why you see boys being so prized in many cultures because no matter who they marry their kids will be their tribe. As for the daughters, they're usually given a man, most likely of the same tribe, so she can give birth to kids that will carry on her tribes name. Sometimes though, a woman is disowned because she ''married out of her tribe''. And why is that? Because the kids won't be of lineage, but of her husbands.

This has nothing to do with nationalism or racism, who says one feels superior to another person or hates another person based on race or nationality? Lol, you're just following your father's lineage (I think the word you were actually looking for was ''tribalism'', but even so, that doesn't
fit what we're talking about). ;)
It's neither racism nor nationalism. It's sexism, male-ism if you will.
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crayon
12-09-2008, 03:33 PM
^^I don't think I've ever heard of that before... Do you know any hadiths that corroborate what you're saying?

(to sis ameena, not whatsthepoint)
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Al-Zaara
12-09-2008, 03:35 PM
^ Yeah, sorry about nationalism, I meant to say sexism, I am reading right now about nationalism, so the terms got confused, my apologies.

In most cultures, the tribe is carried on by the males side, so if he gives birth to daughters, then she will be what her father is. The boy carries on the tribes name, or the family name, that's why you see boys being so prized in many cultures because no matter who they marry their kids will be their tribe. As for the daughters, they're usually given a man, most likely of the same tribe, so she can give birth to kids that will carry on her tribes name. Sometimes though, a woman is disowned because she ''married out of her tribe''. And why is that? Because the kids won't be of lineage, but of her husbands.
That's culture not an wide-spread religion to fit all people (Islam). In my culture it isn't like that for example, but in yours for example it is, but both follow Islam, so why would something part of your culture be described as Islamic while mine wouldn't? Islamically, religiously, it doesn't say anything to it, it's culture based. You can't say it is Islamic to be called black just 'cause your Dad is black and your Mum is white, example.
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Intisar
12-09-2008, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
^^I don't think I've ever heard of that before... Do you know any hadiths that corroborate what you're saying?

(to sis ameena, not whatsthepoint)
Inshaa'Allaah I'll find some.

Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
^ Yeah, sorry about nationalism, I meant to say sexism, I am reading right now about nationalism, so the terms got confused, my apologies.

That's culture not an wide-spread religion to fit all people (Islam). In my culture it isn't like that for example, but in yours for example it is, but both follow Islam, so why would something part of your culture be described as Islamic while mine wouldn't? Islamically, religiously, it doesn't say anything to it, it's culture based. You can't say it is Islamic to be called black just 'cause your Dad is black and your Mum is white, example.
Hmmm, and you know this for a fact right?

Just checking. :)
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Al-Zaara
12-09-2008, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ameena*
Hmmm, and you know this for a fact right?
For me absolutely it is a fact, this is how I was taught. I'll be waiting for the evidence you have for this, inshaAllah, will then show my teacher too. =)
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Intisar
12-09-2008, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
For me absolutely it is a fact, this is how I was taught. I'll be waiting for the evidence you have for this, inshaAllah, will then show my teacher too. =)
Okay so what you're telling me is, it's a ''fact'' because you were taught that from when you were young?
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Al-Zaara
12-09-2008, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Ameena*
Okay so what you're telling me is, it's a ''fact'' because you were taught that from when you were young?
I am waiting for your evidence first, then you can question mine. I did say for me, now the same question applies to you too, innit, I'll rather wait for you to bring forth the evidence to your claim. And then, I can bring forth my evidence if that is what you want, we can discuss.
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Whatsthepoint
12-09-2008, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There was this black guy, married a white woman, had a son, who according to you would be considered black. He then married a woman, had a son, who according to what you say would also be considered black. The line could go on and on, a completely white child would be considered black.
Doesn't make to much sense to me..
Anyone care to islamically evaluate this?
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Banu_Hashim
12-09-2008, 04:08 PM
OK. This is what I found in a book called;

بحشتي زيور
Heavenly Ornaments
A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
Volume One

By
Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi

Translated by
Maulana Muhammad Mahomedy.

Page 441, Under the section headed "Equality in Lineage":

" 2. In matters of lineage, the lineage of the father is considered and not the mother. If the father is a Sayyid, the son is also a Sayyid; and if the father is a Shaykh, the son is also a Shaykh - irrespective of what the mother may be. If a Sayyid marries a woman who is not a Sayyid, their son will be regarded as a Sayyid. This son will be equal in status to all other Sayyids. Although the son whose father and mother are both from a noble family is respected more, according to the Shariah they will be regarded as relatives or of the same social standing."

Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion. Interpret it as you wish.
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S_87
12-09-2008, 04:11 PM
im not sure if sister ameena means this but from what i understand her to be saying: the mothers lineage is not disregarded but lets look at the example of Muhammed :arabic5: how far back can we go in his lineage? pretty much all the way back right. we can name his forefathers or if not, we can easily find out. How many of us can name the women from who his :arabic5: lineage is from?
for the tribe thing in particular, we dont have tribes so cant comment on that, but in islam a child is from his/her fathers tribe. Again the example of Muhammed :arabic5: can be used.
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islamirama
12-09-2008, 04:18 PM
As far as religion is concerned. In Islam, the child follows the religion of the father, regardless of what the faith of the mother is. In Judaism, it's the opposite. A jew's mother's child will always be jewish.

As far as lineage is concerned this is a culture, traditions and customs aspect of the society. Generally the girl is considered marrying into so and so's family, not the other way around. It's the girl that goes to the groom's house and it is the girl that has to get used to the customs and ways of the groom's side of the family. So in a sense, the children do take after the father as far as not just religion, but culture, customs and traditions are concerned.

The belief of you belong to your father's lineage does exist in the east, and this the eastern custom belief that is common among muslims and non-muslims. A child is known by his father's name, therefore he is also known by his father's tribe, family name and heritage as well as race. Even in the west, you're more likely to hear "Son of black man" or "son of arab man" or "son of a paki" but you'll never here something like "Son of white/black/indian/arab/etc woman". That's just the way the world turns. Which is why many out there that won't marry their daughters outside of thier culture but will allow their son to since he'll be bring her into his culture and race.

This is why the pagan arabs made fun of the Prophet (saw) saying that he has only daughters and no son, so his lineage will end. But Allah made the prophet's lineage continue through his daughters and it is from this very lineage the Mahdi will come.
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Ansariyah
12-09-2008, 06:22 PM
My culture My Culture, My culture. Ur culture isn't ur one way ticket to Jannah. Islam Is InshaAllah! It's part of who u are no doubt, but to speak of it this highly n bein hell bent isn't a pretty sight to see.

There are spouses who are of different races/cultures who get married, have beautiful children, n there is nothing missing in their marriage except that there is more gain MashaAllah! Islam binds people, culture doesn't. The language of Love, understanding, Mercy, is wat unifies hearts.

I am quite mixed, its all good in the hoood lol.
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crayon
12-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
As far as religion is concerned. In Islam, the child follows the religion of the father, regardless of what the faith of the mother is. In Judaism, it's the opposite. A jew's mother's child will always be jewish.

As far as lineage is concerned this is a culture, traditions and customs aspect of the society.
Yup, that's what I know as well.

As for the kids taking their father lineage, even if they do, there's no reason for lineage to be considered the same thing as customs and traditions. There's nothing haram with mixing between both cultures (as long as nothing goes against islam, of course), and that's generally what happens when 2 people of different cultures marry. If the mother or father want to totally give up their culture and let the other person have full authority, I also don't think there's anything wrong with that. Ultimately, it depends on the specific two people, and how willing each person is to adapt to the way of life of the other person.
So while the father carrying the lineage might be important when it comes to tribes, traditional outdated social classes, "sayiids" and "shaykhs" whatever that is (i'm guessing just the names for the different social classes in the old arab world), in this day and age, I don't think it matters too much.
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Muezzin
12-09-2008, 07:45 PM
Probably a lame thread title but by that I mean intercultural marriages...

What do you think...Do you think the intolerance we see today....(When it comes to parents) will disappear over time?

Do you think that when it comes to us being parents, them prejudices will have vanished or do you think there is wisdom in sticking to your own culture/background etc and never experiencing the richness of another

Why do you think these prejudices exist...There is no nationalism or tribalism or racism in Islam...so why??

Have you personally married out of the culture and if yes did you face any difficulties/hardships/barriers?

WassalamuAlaykum
Well, one of my uncles married an Afro-Carribean lady, and another uncle married a White (or is Caucasian more PC?) lady.

I'm not married. I personally couldn't care less about the colour of a spouse's skin or her culture - as long as they're good, friendly, decent people I'd be like, 'Great! Let's get married so one of us can drain the other's bank account!'

Originally Posted by Alpha Dude™
^ Sayyids are referred to as being the descendants of the Prophet SAW (I think Sayyid might be a desi term). From what I have read/learnt on the topic of sayyids, it is incumbent for us to show all of them respect, even if they may not be the best of muslims/people.
I'd agree with that if it also states that all people must be afforded respect, regardless of their (alleged) gene pool. I don't know if it does or not because I haven't read it.

This lineage stuff sounds decidedly dodgy.
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crayon
12-09-2008, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude™
I believe that we aren't allowed to give zakat money to sayyids, either.
Yeah, I just asked my mom about them, she told me that too. Zakat, sadaqa, anything besides a gift is not allowed to be given to them. I know them as "ahl al bayt" (people of the house), not sure if that's the word for them in arabic.
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Banu_Hashim
12-09-2008, 08:57 PM
No, it's not a hadith. Just a book written on religious law by the scholar Ashraf Ali Thanwi. But I think he was just using the Sayyids and Shaykhs as example names to get across the point that the children take the father's name/lineage.

Originally Posted by Alpha Dude™
I believe that we aren't allowed to give zakat money to sayyids, either.
Really? ....You learn somethin new every day. :statisfie
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Intisar
12-10-2008, 11:33 PM
''The child is an extension of his father and the bearer of his characteristics. During his lifetime he is the joy of his father's eyes, while after his death he represents a continuation of his existence.''

http://www.themodernreligion.com/fam...ren_rights.htm

^^ If you click on this link and read the rest of it, you'll notice that basically what the author is trying to say is the child continues on their father's lineage, which I was I was trying to get at this whole time.

The rest of it I don't agree with at all, I only agree with the part that I've quoted (well only slightly). :D

I also had some evidence from a book I had about lineage in Islaam, but it seems I can't find it.

Anyway, I hope this sums up what I've been saying this whole time.

:sl:

Edit: Check out this link too, it's really interesting. http://bitesizeislam.wordpress.com/2...on-of-lineage/
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crayon
12-11-2008, 09:46 AM
Yes, a child can be the 'continuation' of the father after he has passed away, but it takes more than just sperm to make a baby. Two sets of chromosomes are in that child, the child could be a mirror image of the mother, in both physical aspects, as well as 'mental qualities and traits'. So no matter how much the father (and perhaps mother) want and expect the child to be a replica of his father, in culture, tradition, mindset, etc. he/she will still be affected by his mother, even moreso than they would by the father i would say, since the mother is the main person who raises the child.

So yeah, what was said in those two links doesn't cite any islamic evidence or sources, it's merely the opinion of whoever wrote it. I'm not saying that it is wrong for a person to take after their father, if the mother wants that, then so be it, but by no means is it "islamically" right that that happen.

Again, maybe we're just disagreeing because we had different ideas of "lineage". Like I said before, lineage =/= cultures and traditions, for me anyway.
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Banu_Hashim
12-11-2008, 10:20 AM
I don't think anyone's doubting that biologically, a child is gentically half the mother and half the father, and therefore the child's phenotype will show both side's of his/her's heritage. But the child takes the last name of the father, and is carrying on his family name rather than the mother's. That's all.
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crayon
12-11-2008, 10:27 AM
I'm not doubting that either, what I am doubting is that islamicallya child must fulfill the traditions and culture of his father while ignoring those of his mother.
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Banu_Hashim
12-11-2008, 10:42 AM
Oh ok. Then yeah, I agree. That isn't morally correct or islamic to completely ignore your mother's side/culture/traditions.
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Re.TiReD
12-11-2008, 12:07 PM
From intercultural marriages to genetics, well done dudes ;D
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Intisar
12-11-2008, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
I don't think anyone's doubting that biologically, a child is gentically half the mother and half the father, and therefore the child's phenotype will show both side's of his/her's heritage. But the child takes the last name of the father, and is carrying on his family name rather than the mother's. That's all.
:sl: JazakAllaah khair, that's exactly what I meant. :)
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crayon
12-11-2008, 05:44 PM
Well okay then, it's just been a misunderstanding based on what the word "lineage" entails.:)
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