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tarek samy
12-05-2008, 05:37 PM
for those who shade douts on the truth of islam .the proof of the miracles of the Holy book Of QURAAN have been confessed even by the non muslim scientists . the sophisticated description of some of the biologoical and natural process that was described by the Holybook some 14 centuries ago has left the scientist quite fascinated and declare that QURAAN is divine message
to know about this here is useful like www.islamguide.com
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AntiKarateKid
12-06-2008, 04:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
for those who shade douts on the truth of islam .the proof of the miracles of the Holy book Of QURAAN have been confessed even by the non muslim scientists . the sophisticated description of some of the biologoical and natural process that was described by the Holybook some 14 centuries ago has left the scientist quite fascinated and declare that QURAAN is divine message
to know about this here is useful like www.islamguide.com
Careful the skeptics are drawn to this like flies to honey. They'll whip out their distortions and pass it off as logic.
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Trumble
12-06-2008, 10:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Careful the skeptics are drawn to this like flies to honey. They'll whip out their distortions and pass it off as logic.
I'm afraid the 'distortions' and 'passing off as logic' are generally on the part of those advocating such 'miracles'! However, been there, done that and can't be bothered to do it again. Anyone who has been around here more than five minutes knows all the arguments and new folks can always use the search facility to find them. :)
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tarek samy
12-06-2008, 12:58 PM
we cant force who dont want to scrutinize or use their minds .what is there on teh site is qhite facts the quotations are for well known scientists ,nothing can motivate them to say something wrong or dishonest since they are all non muslims ,but the miracles are outstanding . i think that the matter desreves more that the five minutes that you think you spent in vein .we are not addressing people who take matters lightly or transiently as their beliefs are not gonna change actually they rae not willing to hear the right voice
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Trumble
12-06-2008, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
we cant force who dont want to scrutinize or use their minds .what is there on teh site is qhite facts the quotations are for well known scientists ,nothing can motivate them to say something wrong or dishonest since they are all non muslims ,but the miracles are outstanding . i think that the matter desreves more that the five minutes that you think you spent in vein .we are not addressing people who take matters lightly or transiently as their beliefs are not gonna change actually they rae not willing to hear the right voice
Please. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion does not mean they don't 'scrutinize' or 'use their minds'. I have done both in this particular context, as have a lot of people here on both 'sides'. In so doing I have reached the conclusions firstly that most of the 'interpretations' of Qur'anic passages on which these 'miracles' depend are unjustifiable and secondly that most widely referenced of those 'well known' scientists are far less unbiased and indeed unmotivated than you suggest.
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tarek samy
12-06-2008, 03:49 PM
to have you own openion is an absolute freedom.however to say something untrure or defame just to attract attention away from something this what is undesirable .you said that all of this is just bias then simply can you tell me about the embryogenesis? i bet you know nothing about it how come yu scrutunize while you dont know facts? to critisize something you have to prove the opposite ,can you tell me why QURAAN took challenge and told about embryogenesis ? it was unnecessary but this is miracles to say that this is unbiased you have to prove that embryogenesis is something different from that description but all the recent science could not find contradiction instead they found support is not this enough to be unbiased? again your personal openion is absolute freedom but if you want to convinceothers with this openion bring the proof
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Trumble
12-06-2008, 05:21 PM
The search feature can be found at the top of the page. The topic has been discussed many times.
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Tony
12-06-2008, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Please. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion does not mean they don't 'scrutinize' or 'use their minds'. I have done both in this particular context, as have a lot of people here on both 'sides'. In so doing I have reached the conclusions firstly that most of the 'interpretations' of Qur'anic passages on which these 'miracles' depend are unjustifiable and secondly that most widely referenced of those 'well known' scientists are far less unbiased and indeed unmotivated than you suggest.
May Allah bestow his mercy and grace upon you, and open your eyes to the proofs in the Noble Quran. Peace
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AntiKarateKid
12-06-2008, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Please. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion does not mean they don't 'scrutinize' or 'use their minds'. I have done both in this particular context, as have a lot of people here on both 'sides'. In so doing I have reached the conclusions firstly that most of the 'interpretations' of Qur'anic passages on which these 'miracles' depend are unjustifiable and secondly that most widely referenced of those 'well known' scientists are far less unbiased and indeed unmotivated than you suggest.
Always attacking the credibility of scientists huh?

WHos more reliable, a forum poster named Trumble? Or a scientist and scholar who is well known outside of LI?:rollseyes

I forgot, if they think there are miracle,s they MUST be being paid or something. LOL.:thumbs_up

Dont bother Tarek, these guys are stuck.
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alcurad
12-06-2008, 09:08 PM
it is important to note that regardless of your opinion concerning scientific miracles, it is the message and teachings of Islam that matter.
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Whatsthepoint
12-06-2008, 09:09 PM
It would be interesting to know how many people converted based solely on miracles, as you call them, how many converted solely because Islam made sense to them and how many converted based on both.
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Tony
12-06-2008, 09:13 PM
I converted as the Quran made sense, then the proofs strengthened my conviction, then the feeling of being close to Allah during prayer fixed Allah in my heart absolutely. Very good question. Peace
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AntiKarateKid
12-06-2008, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
it is important to note that regardless of your opinion concerning scientific miracles, it is the message and teachings of Islam that matter.
I know, I know :D. But they are still freaking cool!
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tarek samy
12-06-2008, 10:07 PM
yes and this is another miracle of our HOLY QURAAN taht told us about the stubborness of the agonist that if they were allowed to reach heavens,see the bright evidence they would say that they are blind folded,i always ask if a blind person could see the sun ? he never sees it does this mean that the sun doesnt exist?
may ALLAH bless all the people who defend the defenders of ISLAM and support them in the face of people who even dont want us even to raise our voice and reveal the greatness of this religion that is beyond our endless effort and that is worthy what is more that our lives if it would be taken times and times just to say that we belong to it
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czgibson
12-09-2008, 02:18 PM
Greetings,

Further to wtp's excellent question, can anyone provide a list of scientists who have converted to Islam after making statements on the miraculous nature of the Qur'an?

Peace
Reply

Thinker
12-09-2008, 02:56 PM
Many years back I was in Indonesia, in a restaurant with a senior government official who had been educated at University in America. We sat by the window overlooking the sea. In casual conversation he pointed to an island in our view and told me that the native tribe of the island had special powers. He told me that when they were fighting the Japanese invaders they had the power to deflect bullets so that a bullet fired at them would curve and go around their bodies. I looked at him incredulously waiting for the punch line and there was none, he was deadly serious, he truly believed the these people did have magical powers. From that and subsequent learning in life I have concluded that it is VERY easy to convince human beings of the most ridiculous particularly if it is something they want to believe.
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crayon
12-09-2008, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
From that and subsequent learning in life I have concluded that it is VERY easy to convince human beings of the most ridiculous particularly if it is something they want to believe.
The same could be said for many accepted scientific theories that base a lot of their conclusions on guesswork, could it not? I won't go into specifics because I don't know enough about the different areas of science, it's a genuine question though. If someone is looking for a certain answer, and then even if they do all the scientific research, it's not enough for a 100% certified answer, is it not possible that they conclude what they wish?

Hmmm. I think I stopped making sense somewhere in there. meh, i guess someone might get what i mean.
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tarek samy
12-09-2008, 03:57 PM
as for the first question about scientists who converted to Islam i dont remember names for the time being .what actually matters is their testimony that was declared many times and again i remind every one that they were speaking about absolute scientific point of they were not religiosly motivated simply because they were non muslims .threre are thousands of people who covert to islam based upon convection and you can meet them here in this forum .as for the second question actually i have many to say . in islam we dont believe in myths or super power of the human beings .every thing happens with the will of ALLAH.prophets are human being . they have a message to reveal .this message is supported by miracles .because a divine message must have intelectual proof . the story you told about( bullets) is nothing but ignorance .islam orders us to learn and fight ignorance and this is why our religion has stress that we are all human beings and no one is exempt from doing wrong things or misunderstands but what really mattres that we eventully get the right way .Islam is religion of reason both in the miraculous aspect and human aspect.islam orders us to worship ALLAH and no one else.Islam ordered us with every thing good and beneficial and not to harm human being even if they are non muslims .the greatness of this religion is that it is religion of humanity and forgiveness. before Islam prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was known for his super manners he never lied he was the most honest and most kind among people . the story of convection and
evidence is long story ,it requires us to think with an intention to find the right way
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czgibson
12-09-2008, 07:48 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
as for the first question about scientists who converted to Islam i dont remember names for the time being .what actually matters is their testimony that was declared many times and again i remind every one that they were speaking about absolute scientific point of they were not religiosly motivated simply because they were non muslims
Surely any scientist who had become convinced that there were scientific miracles in the Qur'an would convert to Islam?

Peace
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AntiKarateKid
12-09-2008, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Surely any scientist who had become convinced that there were scientific miracles in the Qur'an would convert to Islam?

Peace
Maurice Bucaille did.


Here you go.
http://www.islamicbulletin.org/newsl.../embraced.aspx


Interesting to note his reasons for not openly professing his belife. THis is most proabably the same case with Moore. THey dont want their reputation to be lost.
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S1aveofA11ah
12-09-2008, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Further to wtp's excellent question, can anyone provide a list of scientists who have converted to Islam after making statements on the miraculous nature of the Qur'an?

Peace

I don't have a comprehensive list as such but a few youtube links:


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QhHr7OBQrKs

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0IspK651RpY

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=73EfykhtXsE

type in 'scientists who converted to islam' in youtube homepage for more. Hope this helps.
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czgibson
12-09-2008, 08:18 PM
Greetings,

Thanks for the information, guys. I'll try to digest it over the next couple of days.

Peace
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tarek samy
12-09-2008, 08:23 PM
SUBHANALLAH ,ALLAH AKBAR, may allah reward you for this post
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Whatsthepoint
12-09-2008, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Maurice Bucaille did.


Here you go.
http://www.islamicbulletin.org/newsl.../embraced.aspx


Interesting to note his reasons for not openly professing his belife. THis is most proabably the same case with Moore. THey dont want their reputation to be lost.
Did Moore convert?
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tarek samy
12-09-2008, 10:09 PM
yes he converted

look here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ9L-WRyUU8
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Hamayun
12-10-2008, 12:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Further to wtp's excellent question, can anyone provide a list of scientists who have converted to Islam after making statements on the miraculous nature of the Qur'an?

Peace
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Surely any scientist who had become convinced that there were scientific miracles in the Qur'an would convert to Islam?

Peace
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Thanks for the information, guys. I'll try to digest it over the next couple of days.

Peace
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Did Moore convert?

I don't see the point in replying to these questions when a quick search would reveal the answers.

All I can say to you guys is this...... :rollseyes
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Gator
12-10-2008, 02:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
for those who shade douts on the truth of islam .the proof of the miracles of the Holy book Of QURAAN have been confessed even by the non muslim scientists . the sophisticated description of some of the biologoical and natural process that was described by the Holybook some 14 centuries ago has left the scientist quite fascinated and declare that QURAAN is divine message
to know about this here is useful like www.islamguide.com
Hello,
I appreciate the link although I did not find the reference page on embryology a compelling proof.
Thanks.
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alcurad
12-10-2008, 02:36 AM
^teachings first, miracles later.
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Whatsthepoint
12-10-2008, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
yes he converted

look here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ9L-WRyUU8
Any other evidence?
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Whatsthepoint
12-10-2008, 11:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I don't see the point in replying to these questions when a quick search would reveal the answers.

All I can say to you guys is this...... :rollseyes
A quick search will only reveal that there is no reliable data as to whether Moore and Bucaille actually converted.
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tarek samy
12-10-2008, 12:54 PM
i see that you dont need further evidence .actually i think no one convincible does .all what you are about is raising suspecions .arguement is pointless can you see the sun?(i dout)
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czgibson
12-10-2008, 01:36 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Maurice Bucaille did.


Here you go.
http://www.islamicbulletin.org/newsl.../embraced.aspx


Interesting to note his reasons for not openly professing his belife. THis is most proabably the same case with Moore. THey dont want their reputation to be lost.
What a shame they feel they can't profess their belief openly (if they have indeed converted). Bucaille is slightly cagey about it even in the interview, although he may well have converted - good for him.

I think it's worth saying that Bucaille is certainly far more famous for his comments about Islam than for his scientific career. However, he's a scientist who appears to have converted to Islam, and that's fair enough.

As for Keith Moore, it's much less clear that he has converted to Islam. Tarek samy has posted a youtube video which simply asserts that he has, with no supporting evidence at all. If you find that convincing, you may need to check your critical faculties.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I don't see the point in replying to these questions when a quick search would reveal the answers.
You are, of course, under no obligation to answer them. As wtp has said, it's difficult to find clear, unambiguous evidence one way or the other, although the Bucaille interview that's come to light in this thread may go some way to clearing that up. I'm grateful to AKK for providing it.

Peace
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AntiKarateKid
12-10-2008, 02:18 PM
Has anyone ever thought, after reading that Bucaille link I gave, that the scientists arent going around shoiting that htey are Muslim because they feel that, like Bucaile said, their works would be views as biased and unreliable afterwards.

They may be Muslims at heart but not Muslims by appearance.
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tarek samy
12-10-2008, 02:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


What a shame they feel they can't profess their belief openly (if they have indeed converted). Bucaille is slightly cagey about it even in the interview, although he may well have converted - good for him.

I think it's worth saying that Bucaille is certainly far more famous for his comments about Islam than for his scientific career. However, he's a scientist who appears to have converted to Islam, and that's fair enough.

As for Keith Moore, it's much less clear that he has converted to Islam. Tarek samy has posted a youtube video which simply asserts that he has, with no supporting evidence at all. If you find that convincing, you may need to check your critical faculties.



You are, of course, under no obligation to answer them. As wtp has said, it's difficult to find clear, unambiguous evidence one way or the other, although the Bucaille interview that's come to light in this thread may go some way to clearing that up. I'm grateful to AKK for providing it.

Peace
if you think that description of embryogenesis in QURAAN was haphazard then youb aree the one who needs to revise critical faculuties .
when the ovum is fertilized it turns to oocyte and then to gametocytewhich then is stuck in the wall of uterus QURAAN described this position as (alaka)the litereral translation is hanging .for the past centuries it was thought taht the gametocyte is inside the uterine cavity and not attached to the wall how could QURAAN describe this position is not this miraculous ? what is the absolute evidence for you to see anatomy book coming from heavens ?
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Gator
12-10-2008, 03:22 PM
Hi since we're doing this, here are the usual disputations against the embryology proof of the quran. Rather than wasting time doing 5,000 responses back and forth.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../islamsci.html

We've done this alot and we could go round and round, but your link and this link should be a good summary in the pro's and con's of the argument.

There's also more comprehensive sites but you can't link to them.

Thanks.
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tarek samy
12-10-2008, 04:19 PM
i see this is complete rididculous how can you compare the openioin of specialized scientist to one person only who talks about all aspects ,embryology origin of universe with no references this is not comparable to the links we posted before it is a matter of just reaction no known scientists has said such things .
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Hamayun
12-10-2008, 11:03 PM
One thing I find amazing and remarkable Subhan Allah!!!

How dearly our Muslim brothers hold on to their faith. How firm they are in their beliefs. How much conviction they have. It really is amazing.

Subhan Allah! For some people no proof is necessary... but then what is proof?

What is rational today will be irrational tomorrow but it will not affect Muslims. We do not have the capability to understand anything outside our logic which depends on the social conditioning of the country we live in.

[3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

[17:82] We send down in the Quran healing and mercy for the believers. At the same time, it only increases the wickedness of the transgressors.

[56:79] None can grasp it (Quran) except the sincere.
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aamirsaab
12-10-2008, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
Hi since we're doing this, here are the usual disputations against the embryology proof of the quran. Rather than wasting time doing 5,000 responses back and forth.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../islamsci.html

We've done this alot and we could go round and round, but your link and this link should be a good summary in the pro's and con's of the argument.

There's also more comprehensive sites but you can't link to them.

Thanks.
You do know that link has bias written ALL OVER IT? I'm all for discussion on this topic, but come on, infidels.org? I admit I didn't read all of that page. I gave it a skim read and found it to be in the same vain as certain cherry pickers off youtube complete with their knowledge about Islamic theology (which is less than my 11 year old brother's!).

Gonna have to use a more reliable source than that, hermano.
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AntiKarateKid
12-10-2008, 11:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You do know that link has bias written ALL OVER IT? I'm all for discussion on this topic, but come on, infidels.org? I admit I didn't read all of that page. I gave it a skim read and found it to be in the same vain as certain cherry pickers off youtube complete with their knowledge about Islamic theology (which is less than my 11 year old brother's!).

Gonna have to use a more reliable source than that, hermano.
Well said.
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Trumble
12-11-2008, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You do know that link has bias written ALL OVER IT?
Of course it does. As does every link posted that takes the opposite point of view... which I note you don't comment on.


format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Has anyone ever thought, after reading that Bucaille link I gave, that the scientists arent going around shoiting that htey are Muslim because they feel that, like Bucaile said, their works would be views as biased and unreliable afterwards.
No. As competent scientists their work will either stand up to peer review and critical analysis on it's own merits or it won't. Scientific papers are not opinion pieces.

They may be Muslims at heart but not Muslims by appearance.
I see no reason to hide any conversion/reversion to Islam, particularly after having made some of the comments attributed to them; the suggestion simply makes no sense. It's far more likely that, as the old saying goes, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck. Other than perhaps Bucaille these alleged conversions just never happened.
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Gator
12-11-2008, 01:03 AM
Dudes,
Tarek was starting to go down the well traveled path of usual back and forth argument. I don't care what the link is, never saw it before (and honestly it gave only some of the the usual arguments, that's why I said google it).

None of us are going to be convinced.

The interesting point of this thread was the individual scientists (two I think) that have converted to Islam based on the strenght of the argument.

Just trying to keep the thread on track.

Let's see what CZ has to say.

Thanks.
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czgibson
12-11-2008, 01:31 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
if you think that description of embryogenesis in QURAAN was haphazard then youb aree the one who needs to revise critical faculuties .
I don't recall mentioning embryology at all. I was talking about the youtube video you linked to. Do you really find it convincing?

when the ovum is fertilized it turns to oocyte and then to gametocytewhich then is stuck in the wall of uterus QURAAN described this position as (alaka)the litereral translation is hanging .for the past centuries it was thought taht the gametocyte is inside the uterine cavity and not attached to the wall how could QURAAN describe this position is not this miraculous ? what is the absolute evidence for you to see anatomy book coming from heavens ?
No, it is not miraculous. The Qur'an is a highly suggestive and poetic text that is open to many interpretations.

And anyway, this topic has been discussed many times, as people keep saying. If you want to know what people think about it, use the search feature at the top of every page on the forum.

Just when you think the 'scientific miracles' argument has been quietly laid to rest, along comes another person trying to sell it to us all. If I were a Muslim, I think I'd find it embarrassing.

Peace
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aamirsaab
12-11-2008, 10:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Of course it does. As does every link posted that takes the opposite point of view... which I note you don't comment on.
....
I misunderstood his post. I thought he was trying to further the conversation as opposed to making a point about the entire thread :).
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AntiKarateKid
12-11-2008, 04:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Of course it does. As does every link posted that takes the opposite point of view... which I note you don't comment on.




No. As competent scientists their work will either stand up to peer review and critical analysis on it's own merits or it won't. Scientific papers are not opinion pieces.



I see no reason to hide any conversion/reversion to Islam, particularly after having made some of the comments attributed to them; the suggestion simply makes no sense. It's far more likely that, as the old saying goes, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck. Other than perhaps Bucaille these alleged conversions just never happened.
Are you serious? After Bucaille mentioned the relationship between the Quran and the Big bang theory, he was mocked for that and his scientific theories were called Bucailism.

Your answer surprises me. You are lying to youself if scientists start becomng heavily involved with one religion or another, that people will not be suspicious of their work's authenticity.

You yourself said that Moore probably got paid to say those things. You dismiss his work and call him biased.
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AntiKarateKid
12-11-2008, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I don't recall mentioning embryology at all. I was talking about the youtube video you linked to. Do you really find it convincing?



No, it is not miraculous. The Qur'an is a highly suggestive and poetic text that is open to many interpretations.

And anyway, this topic has been discussed many times, as people keep saying. If you want to know what people think about it, use the search feature at the top of every page on the forum.

Just when you think the 'scientific miracles' argument has been quietly laid to rest, along comes another person trying to sell it to us all. If I were a Muslim, I think I'd find it embarrassing.

Peace


Its only your vain wish that it got laid to rest. Scientists from around the world have commented in favor of the miracles. Some have argues against it too. But the miracles still stand there.

THe only thing I find embarrassing are your paltry attempts at dismissing ever miracle that comes along your path and self-declaring it to be dead. THAT is embarassing.
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czgibson
12-11-2008, 07:36 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Its only your vain wish that it got laid to rest. Scientists from around the world have commented in favor of the miracles. Some have argues against it too. But the miracles still stand there.

THe only thing I find embarrassing are your paltry attempts at dismissing ever miracle that comes along your path and self-declaring it to be dead. THAT is embarassing.

Ad hominem
.

AKK, you are much more interesting when you address the issues.

Peace
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AntiKarateKid
12-11-2008, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



Ad hominem
.

AKK, you are much more interesting when you address the issues.

Peace
CZ, you yourself are interesting when you don't make grand statements like "I thought the scientific miracles argument has been laid to rest" and "if I were a Muslim, I would be embarrassed."

We are far from embarrassed at the signs found in the Quran. What we are is frustrated at others' dismissal of such claims by saying it is too poetic to be precise, the Greeks did it, etc etc.

If you want to go the Greek route: http://www.quranicstudies.com/articl...mbryology.html


Poetic route is at your discretion though. I feel that it is precise, you disagree.

I apologize for that burst of emotion towards you but these are viable signs from God.

Peace
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tarek samy
12-12-2008, 11:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
Dudes,
Tarek was starting to go down the well traveled path of usual back and forth argument. I don't care what the link is, never saw it before (nd honestly it gave only some of the the usual arguments, that's why I said google it).

None of us are going to be convinced.

Thanks.
we know that you are not convincible we are told in QURAAN that not all people will be muslims actually we are not trying to convince you we are discussing truth

if somebody thinks its embarasing to rediscuss miracles of Quraan then i think whta is more embarassing to post 2235 post to attack islam .actually you need to post 2 billion might it hav effect .our spiritual power is something you have not no , you will not either know
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Gator
12-12-2008, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
we know that you are not convincible we are told in QURAAN...
Oh I see. A book that is supposed to be the absolute TRUTH has a clause in it (right up front mind you) saying that anyone who doesn't believe it is the TRUTH is just not supposed to see it due to God (rather than him or her having actual objections relying on reason and intellect).

Well, nevermind then.

Thanks.
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czgibson
12-12-2008, 04:06 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
we know that you are not convincible we are told in QURAAN that not all people will be muslims actually we are not trying to convince you we are discussing truth

if somebody thinks its embarasing to rediscuss miracles of Quraan then i think whta is more embarassing to post 2235 post to attack islam .actually you need to post 2 billion might it hav effect .our spiritual power is something you have not no , you will not either know
I don't post to attack Islam, and I don't particularly expect to convince anyone; I'm just discussing truth, like you. There's no need to get emotional about it.

I'm very surprised to learn that you think 2 billion internet posts might have an effect on Islam.

Peace
Reply

tarek samy
12-12-2008, 04:34 PM
i am totally amazed that you cant get what i mean . of course i dont think that 2 billion post will affect islam neither do i think that you are able to right them in your lifetime . it is so called impossible conditioning .i think it is interestiing to start studying linguistics and hidden meaning of words here

SUBHANALLAH
__________________
Then, when they forgot that whereof they had been reminded,We opened unto them the gates of all things till, even as they were rejoicing in that which they were given, We seized them unawares, and lo! they were dumbfounded.
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-16-2008, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
for those who shade douts on the truth of islam .the proof of the miracles of the Holy book Of QURAAN have been confessed even by the non muslim scientists . the sophisticated description of some of the biologoical and natural process that was described by the Holybook some 14 centuries ago has left the scientist quite fascinated and declare that QURAAN is divine message
to know about this here is useful like www.islamguide.com
In that case, using your reasoning, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is proof that science is true and islam is wrong since she converted away from islam. As you will probably agree, this isn't correct way of reasoning (whether or not islam/science is good/bad).

These kinds of arguments, that scientists marvel at the Quran ergo it's true, are a bit moot. Whatever "hidden knowledge" is in the Quran according to such claims are utterly useless, as the knowledge apparently always stays hidden until science discovers it independently and believers go cherry-picking in their esoteric scripture to find ambiguous passages that can be interpreted in a fitting way.

I would be rather impressed instead, if the believers divined some useful discoveries from their divinely inspired texts and beat scientists to the goal by explaining stuff like quantum-theory fully, the cure for cancer or invent the hyper-drive.
Reply

tarek samy
12-16-2008, 11:24 PM
although i dont feel that AYAAN is a topic to talk about here as we are talking about the scientific and miraculous aspect of the holy QURAAN i will rep[ly to some of the points that she had stated on no basis ,she is addressing the social aspect of islam as a failuer especially when dealing with womenok lets view some of her openion and think about it with reasoning

first she said that women are flogged when they practice adultry ,actually this is also the punishent for men when she was asked how she describes this as discrimination about women she made a naive statement that women get dicovered easily as they get prergnant ,so let me tell you a story .
one of teh women came to prophet Mohammed (PBUH) commiting adultry and she was carrying her newly borne baby . he told her to go and come back when she becomes older ,she returned one month later but he told her to go and take care of him then come later .doesnt this show mercy?
do you know that islam has put strict terms to prove adultry that to be witnessed by 4 persons can any one practice adultry in the prescence of 4 witness ? so islam always gives a way of returnig back to right way (tawba) . as for women islam has kept the dignity of women .islam has honoured motheres as never in other religion . any muslim woman can ask for separation from her husband when she feels even that life with him is incompatible . i think some one like AYAAN and her idle openion are not good example to show off or foloow she is someone who sees antagosism as advantage and way of gaining more fame but actually no link to reason
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BlackMamba
12-17-2008, 05:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
In that case, using your reasoning, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is proof that science is true and islam is wrong since she converted away from islam. As you will probably agree, this isn't correct way of reasoning (whether or not islam/science is good/bad).

These kinds of arguments, that scientists marvel at the Quran ergo it's true, are a bit moot. Whatever "hidden knowledge" is in the Quran according to such claims are utterly useless, as the knowledge apparently always stays hidden until science discovers it independently and believers go cherry-picking in their esoteric scripture to find ambiguous passages that can be interpreted in a fitting way.

I would be rather impressed instead, if the believers divined some useful discoveries from their divinely inspired texts and beat scientists to the goal by explaining stuff like quantum-theory fully, the cure for cancer or invent the hyper-drive.
Haha you would want your religious book to be a science/medical book... Weird.
The Quran is a book of SIGNS not SCIENCE as said by Dr Zakir Naik
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-17-2008, 02:06 PM
first she said that women are flogged when they practice adultry ,actually this is also the punishent for men when she was asked how she describes this as discrimination about women she made a naive statement that women get dicovered easily as they...
I'm not saying anything about whether or not what Ayaan means is true or false, I'm simply saying that according to the OP's way of reasoning an argument like that would be valid and true. Hence, if you don't want Ayaan's claims to be true (for the idiotic reasons I made up), you don't want the OP's claims to be true for the same reason (that cherry-picking "redeemed ex-experts" is not proof of anything, proof relies on evidence, not on street-cred).

Haha you would want your religious book to be a science/medical book... Weird.
The Quran is a book of SIGNS not SCIENCE as said by Dr Zakir Naik
So...you're basically saying that the Quran is useless, and that it's ok to piggy-back on good science, claiming prior knowledge of a given discovery whenever it's made?

In that case, here's my holy book : "X works like this because of Y".

Whenever a new discovery is made I'll point to this text and proudly yell "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!", as I (as an XY-person) posses divinely inspired knowledge that makes it possible for me to interpret X and Y as anything I like.
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Trumble
12-17-2008, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Are you serious? After Bucaille mentioned the relationship between the Quran and the Big bang theory, he was mocked for that and his scientific theories were called Bucailism.

Your answer surprises me. You are lying to youself if scientists start becomng heavily involved with one religion or another, that people will not be suspicious of their work's authenticity.

With respect, and with apologies for the delay in replying, I think you need to re-read my post. You are completely confusing philosophical and religious speculation with scientific research. Both can be 'work', but only one is 'science'. Bucaille did not offer any 'scientific theories' on the subject, let alone any that would stand up to peer review. Where are his equations?What were his experiments? Where are his results? Has anybody duplicated those results? Pointing out an alleged piece of 'Quranic science' in the form of alleged similarities between mainstream cosmological theories and what the Qur'an says does not constitute a 'scientific theory'.

You yourself said that Moore probably got paid to say those things. You dismiss his work and call him biased.
I don't dismiss his science, but the 'work' we are discussing is not science. Moore has never claimed that it was.
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tarek samy
12-17-2008, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
I'm not saying anything about whether or not what Ayaan means is true or false, I'm simply saying that according to the OP's way of reasoning an argument like that would be valid and true. Hence, if you don't want Ayaan's claims to be true (for the idiotic reasons I made up), you don't want the OP's claims to be true for the same reason (that cherry-picking "redeemed ex-experts" is not proof of anything, proof relies on evidence, not on street-cred).



So...you're basically saying that the Quran is useless, and that it's ok to piggy-back on good science, claiming prior knowledge of a given discovery whenever it's made?

In that case, here's my holy book : "X works like this because of Y".

Whenever a new discovery is made I'll point to this text and proudly yell "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!", as I (as an XY-person) posses divinely inspired knowledge that makes it possible for me to interpret X and Y as anything I like.
i see that you completely mix things up you are comparing things that are uncomparable . i replied to you as regard AYAAN point of view although it is by far much more trivial than credible scientists openions it is no way of comparison .all what you want to say is that there are some people antagonising islam and this is normal .we (muslims ) know as i told you before that not all people will be believers .but again we are revealing the intellectual proof of islam . isee it is completely unreasnable that you compare Quraan to the (x y book )youare refering to actually quraan phrases are determind and stressed they ofcourse are noy of the x xy ambiguuity you claim if you dont want to let your mind believe what is believable dont try to invent what is unbelievable
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-17-2008, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
i see that you completely mix things up you are comparing things that are uncomparable . i replied to you as regard AYAAN point of view although it is by far much more trivial than credible scientists openions it is no way of comparison .all what you want to say is that there are some people antagonising islam and this is normal .we (muslims ) know as i told you before that not all people will be believers .but again we are revealing the intellectual proof of islam .
I do not mix things up. What Ayaan says is completely irrelevant in what I'm getting at. I simply made a false argument saying that if person X (who used to be an adherent of point of view Y) "defects" to the other side and starts attacking point of view Y, then that is not proof that person X's case is true. Feel free to substitute person X with Ayaan, non-muslim scientists, Santa Claus, whoever fits your taste. I simply mentioned Ayaan as an opposite to the "non-muslim scientist"-version to show the bad reasoning in a format that muslims would instantly recognize and debunk.

Why is it so? Well, people of all walks of life has a tendency to favor arguments which are for their own cause, even when the arguments are logically incoherent. You probably do not see the pattern when using "non-muslim scientists", but jump at chance to criticize Ayaan because she is against something which is dear to you. It is not Ayaan you have to debunk however, it is the bad reasoning I use to put her forth as an argument, the argument itself should have been shot down before I even got to Ayaan, just as the OP's claim should have been shot down before people even started to debate particular "non-muslim scientists" and their musings.

format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
isee it is completely unreasnable that you compare Quraan to the (x y book )youare refering to actually quraan phrases are determind and stressed they ofcourse are noy of the x xy ambiguuity you claim if you dont want to let your mind believe what is believable dont try to invent what is unbelievable
Belief and truth are two distinct things. I can believe in the XY-book because it says on the front-page that it was sent from the Heavenly Calculator. That does not make it true however. Neither does the fact that the Heavenly Calculator is mentioned in the XY-book mean that such an entity must exist.

In essence, it doesn't matter how "believable" any claims in the Quran or the XY-book are. As long as it is a matter about belief and personal inclination, truth will only cross its path by accident.
Reply

Hamayun
12-17-2008, 07:34 PM
A wise man once said:

Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.
Not pointing fingers but you know who you are :)

Peace
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-17-2008, 09:32 PM
A wise man once said:

Quote:
Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.
Risk nothing, gain nothing :D
Reply

tarek samy
12-17-2008, 10:09 PM
i see all what you are posting is skeptical philosophy actually i am not discussing philosophy in this thread .some of the peopel on this thread have asked for more evidence we provided them with the scientists names and the links of their views .but the philosophical arguement you are up to is something i dont care about .simply we provide facts that we consider miracle . you are not ready to believe it so it is up to you . i will not be dragged to philosophical discussion of the xy type
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BlackMamba
12-18-2008, 12:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK

So...you're basically saying that the Quran is useless, and that it's ok to piggy-back on good science, claiming prior knowledge of a given discovery whenever it's made?

In that case, here's my holy book : "X works one this because of Y".

Whenever a new discovery is made I'll point to this text and proudly yell "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!", as I (as an XY-person) posses divinely inspired knowledge that makes it possible for me to interpret X and Y as anything I like.
No I'm not sayingthe Quran is useless thats what you're saying not me. And you're not gettig it. If you read the Quran Allah is talking about his creation and while he is talking about it, you see that all the things discussed about the creation is true and actually keeps up with modern science. Such as the big bang theory (surah ambiyaa) that all life is from water(surah ambiyaa and nur I think). It's just like Allah is telling us about the creation through a religious
point I view, but if you want to look at it scientifically, nothing can be proved wrong. All facts in Quran about creation keep up with modern science.
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Tony
12-18-2008, 10:36 AM
We are slaves of Allah, as far as I know there are no scholars as such on here. So why you are trying so hard to trip up Muslims and hold us to account for your disbeleif, I think there is a nagging voice in the heads of agnostic and atheists that Islam is the true path, you post on here expecting great answers from mere slaves of Allah and I think you use our responses to excuse yourself from following the righteous path. We are not trying to convert anyone, this is your own responsibility, it is enough for us to stay on the right path and become ever closer to our exalted Lord Allah. I have all the proof I need when my Dua's are answered and Allah grants me peace. Stop trying so hard to catch people out, if you dont beleive thats up to you, I hope your eyes will be opened but its not our responsibility. There are miracles in the Qur'an and indeed the Qur'an itself is a miracle in as such as it is an everliving word of God. Peace to you all :sl:
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ZarathustraDK
12-18-2008, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
i see all what you are posting is skeptical philosophy actually i am not discussing philosophy in this thread .some of the peopel on this thread have asked for more evidence we provided them with the scientists names and the links of their views .but the philosophical arguement you are up to is something i dont care about .simply we provide facts that we consider miracle . you are not ready to believe it so it is up to you . i will not be dragged to philosophical discussion of the xy type
Miracle or not, you agree with me that whatever hearsay you hear from non-muslim scientists, Ayaan and Santa Claus is not in itself proof of anything, correct?

No I'm not sayingthe Quran is useless thats what you're saying not me. And you're not gettig it.
I am getting that you think something is a miracle, and it is your right to think so. But the moment you put it to a public forum your uttering becomes inter-subjective and subject criticism, criticism that you either have to refute or accept. I don't do this in order to bash you or islam, I'm above that sort of childish behavior. I simply don't understand how you can take personal belief as inter-subjective proof something, yet chide me when I employ the exact same mode of reasoning.

If you read the Quran Allah is talking about his creation and while he is talking about it, you see that all the things discussed about the creation is true and actually keeps up with modern science.
"True" as in "proof", or "true" as in "I believe it's true" (in which case it may not be true).

Such as the big bang theory (surah ambiyaa) that all life is from water(surah ambiyaa and nur I think).
Life cannot arise from water, it requires sulphur, phosphorous, carbon and nitrogen too. I know, I know, but you see how ambiguity plays a role here, right?

So why you are trying so hard to trip up Muslims and hold us to account for your disbeleif
I'm simply discussing a subject on a forum with the same tools I'd discuss politics, math, and Britney Spears' hair-length with, logic, as I wouldn't make much sense if I discussed illogically. It's not a matter of tripping up anybody and feeling gleeful about, stop feeling so sorry for yourself, I'm not trying to be mean.

Indeed, if the topic was about life, the universe and everything, I'd beg for people to trip me, prove me wrong, refute my arguments etc. because then I would that much wiser afterwards. But you guys treat it like I've thrown crap at you.

I think there is a nagging voice in the heads of agnostic and atheists that Islam is the true path, you post on here expecting great answers from mere slaves of Allah and I think you use our responses to excuse yourself from following the righteous path.
If I knew (knew as in inter-subjective proof) that Islam was the true path, I'd be the first to offer myself to Allah. Why would I do otherwise? What you're saying there is tantamount to jumping into a tiger-pit in order to excuse oneself from jumping into the tiger-pit, which would be kind of...counter-productive and senseless.

We are not trying to convert anyone, this is your own responsibility, it is enough for us to stay on the right path and become ever closer to our exalted Lord Allah. I have all the proof I need when my Dua's are answered and Allah grants me peace. Stop trying so hard to catch people out, if you dont beleive thats up to you.
Again with proof and belief mixing it up. They are different from each other.

There are miracles in the Qur'an and indeed the Qur'an itself is a miracle in as such as it is an everliving word of God
You believe that. Your personal belief is not proof it is true, yet you spout it as it was fact in order to rile up fellow muslims.
That is all I am saying. It's the "Emperors New Clothes" all over again. I'm just the little boy in the crowd calling a shovel for a shovel.
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Tony
12-19-2008, 08:11 PM
Zarath....DK you are presumptious. You do not know me yet you accuse me of feeling sorry for myself, Ive been thru it and back without ever having felt sorry for myself as for trying to stir up Muslims ????? You are a bizzare and I think a bit twisted person. Go stir yourself up and I would suggest ou spend a bit more time outdoors in the real world instead of trying to dish out underhanded aggression in cyber space.We are Muslims and we dont need to be stirred up any more than we already are
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czgibson
12-19-2008, 09:46 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
You do not know me yet you accuse me of feeling sorry for myself, Ive been thru it and back without ever having felt sorry for myself as for trying to stir up Muslims ????? You are a bizzare and I think a bit twisted person.
Listen to your own argument: you don't know him, yet you call him twisted and bizarre...

Re: the title of this thread

I think the progress of the thread so far has shown very convincingly that there are no "undisputed miracles of the Holy Quraan".

Peace
Reply

Chuck
12-19-2008, 10:14 PM
First need to define what would most people consider a miracle in an scripture.
Reply

Tony
12-19-2008, 11:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Listen to your own argument: you don't know him, yet you call him twisted and bizarre...

Re: the title of this thread

I think the progress of the thread so far has shown very convincingly that there are no "undisputed miracles of the Holy Quraan".

Peace
truth be told he hit a nerve. I reacted badly and I am sorry. Im just ordinary guy and a Muslim, I dont want to be battered constantly bout my beleifs, not just in here but everywhere, before ou say it, I am in forum to try and help and be helped not to argue with people. I wil hold my tongue in future and again I sincerely apologise to any one offended

The Qur'an in arabic form is unchangeable, A miracle.
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czgibson
12-19-2008, 11:37 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
truth be told he hit a nerve. I reacted badly and I am sorry.
It's very big of you to say so. Much respect.

Peace
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ZarathustraDK
12-20-2008, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
First need to define what would most people consider a miracle in an scripture.
True, that's a hard enough question in itself.

My take on it: a miracle is something impossible that happens inter-subjectively anyway. Not chance, luck or extremely unlikely stuff. Something impossible.

Some people would say that extremely unlikely things happening also qualifies as a miracle. From my point of view this would be wrong, as attributing magic and/or divine intervention to something that has a set probability of happening (even by freak chance) would implicitly carry a risk of being wrong about a lot more than what the thing happening entails in itself. In other words, seeing Elvis' face burnt on a piece of toast should make me think "lol funny coincidence" (because it's perfectly possible for it to happen, although very unlikely), not make me start an Elvis-church (which there probably already is somewhere).
Reply

tarek samy
12-20-2008, 03:48 PM
Subhanallah everything ALLAH has told us in QURAAN is coming true . your attempt to copare between Quraan and magic is comething we are told about in our holybook ,it is something repeated and dates back to the revolution of islam . TKtony i see your apology doesnt make sound you are critisizing the way of thinking of those peoeple i think you are right . all the time they are trying to do somthing but to attack islam . look what he sasya about creation froom water ,it is amiracle .nowadays it is unanimous that 90% of the human body is composed of water life cant go without water . these are the proofs they beleive in . all the other composition are trace element not as essential as water .now as i go through the minds of their peolple expressed in their maliciuos posts they actually not seeking conviction and one of them said it in one of their replies . they dont want to beleive that there is holybook which is miraculous what they know about QUraan AND ISLAM IS nul only adopt some idle openion like Ayaan AND magnify it . we muslims know taht islam is a light in heart strenthened by teh mirackles of Quraaan. they are seeking a scientific formula and even in case they are not gonna believe they have teh skeptical philosophy and this constitutes the core of teir misbeliefs
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-20-2008, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
Subhanallah everything ALLAH has told us in QURAAN is coming true . your attempt to copare between Quraan and magic is comething we are told about in our holybook ,it is something repeated and dates back to the revolution of islam .
Let me guess, it says something like "beware of the kuffir, for they will spin your head around with logic and make you doubt"? If I could sell books by writing "everything in this book is true and magnificent" at the first and last page, I'd be a rich man by now.

format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
TKtony i see your apology doesnt make sound you are critisizing the way of thinking of those peoeple i think you are right . all the time they are trying to do somthing but to attack islam . look what he sasya about creation froom water ,it is amiracle .nowadays it is unanimous that 90% of the human body is composed of water life cant go without water . these are the proofs they beleive in . all the other composition are trace element not as essential as water .
But life can't arise from H20 alone, that's all I said. There is no "essentiality-priority" in this. Without carbon there'd be no life (they call it carbon-based life for a reason), without phosphorous there'd be no life (it's an essential part of the DNA-chain, among other things), without sulphur there'd be no life (well, there could be, but not humans, as they need sulphur for an essential amino-acid), without nitrogen there'd be no life (nitrogen is in all amino-acids which make up DNA).

format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
now as i go through the minds of their peolple expressed in their maliciuos posts they actually not seeking conviction and one of them said it in one of their replies . they dont want to beleive that there is holybook which is miraculous what they know about QUraan AND ISLAM IS nul
Nothing but useless assumptions about other people (which you apparently find malicious) and their motives. You don't bring anything constructive to the table by whispering "boo" and "hooray" in the ears of other people. Sure, you might achieve making them angry at me, but I'd say that would be an underhanded tactic bereft of any sincerity.

format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
only adopt some idle openion like Ayaan AND magnify it
I said it once and I'll say it again. I simply used Ayaan as an example. Whatever she thinks about Islam has nothing to do with what I was explaining. Read it again.

format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
they are seeking a scientific formula and even in case they are not gonna believe they have teh skeptical philosophy and this constitutes the core of teir misbeliefs
Idle assumptions once again. They are close to being true, but could do without the negative spin you seem to put on them. I simply seek truth as revealed by logic, if your belief flies in the face of logic, then it is, by definition, illogical.
Reply

Hamayun
12-20-2008, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK


But life can't arise from H20 alone, that's all I said. There is no "essentiality-priority" in this. Without carbon there'd be no life (they call it carbon-based life for a reason), without phosphorous there'd be no life (it's an essential part of the DNA-chain, among other things), without sulphur there'd be no life (well, there could be, but not humans, as they need sulphur for an essential amino-acid), without nitrogen there'd be no life (nitrogen is in all amino-acids which make up DNA).

And you really think if those elements were mentioned to the people living in a desert 1400 years ago it would make any sense??? :?

Words like "Carbon" and "Phosphorous" weren't even invented.... :rollseyes

This place is just full of trolls...
Reply

tarek samy
12-20-2008, 09:49 PM
[QUOTE=ZarathustraDK;1065820]Let me guess, it says something like "beware of the kuffir, for they will spin your head around with logic and make you doubt"? If I could sell books by writing "everything in this book is true and magnificent" at the first and last page, I'd be a rich man by now.

i see discussion with you is going through a funnel toworda the narrow end what you say here reflects that you know nothing about QURAAN or its versus you say let me guess is logic a matter of guessing ? you debunk yourself if you wanrt to discuss something especailly if it is divine miraculous and widely believed like QURAAN dont try to guess you better learn its literal verses even if you dont want to believe in it

But life can't arise from H20 alone, that's all I said. There is no "essentiality-priority" in this. Without carbon there'd be no life (they call it carbon-based life for a reason), without phosphorous there'd be no life (it's an essential part of the DNA-chain, among other things), without sulphur there'd be no life (well, there could be, but not humans, as they need sulphur for an essential amino-acid), without nitrogen there'd be no life (nitrogen is in all amino-acids which make up DNA).
i see it is completely ridiculous do you this that QURAAN will go desribe the composition of the body that it consists from 21 aminoacids and then names them like leucine ,arginine methionine ...etc to be satisfied ?what makes earth the only planet of life ? it is water which is absent from all other palnets you are forcing me into this basic discussion but no problem
it is obvious and easy judgable
Reply

BlackMamba
12-20-2008, 10:15 PM
To this Zarasusdk dude,
Why do u think ur soo smart and think Muslims are stupid like no Muslim has ever thought "logically" about the quran or learned any science. Just cuz ur atheist and think religion is worthless doesn't mean ur smart there are many people 1000000s of times smarter and more logical than you that are muslim. What qualifications do u have anyway? I mean for some reason it just seems to me like u think u know more and have read more than any Muslim hear. Have you ever read the Quran?
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ZarathustraDK
12-20-2008, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
i see discussion with you is going through a funnel toworda the narrow end what you say here reflects that you know nothing about QURAAN or its versus you say let me guess is logic a matter of guessing ? you debunk yourself if you wanrt to discuss something especailly if it is divine miraculous and widely believed like QURAAN dont try to guess you better learn its literal verses even if you dont want to believe in it
Don't try and sidetrack this with supposed "learnedness" of the Quran. You are not right simply because you can recite a book by heart. I simply said that there is such a "Faith-failsafe" in the Quran. Now please your learnedness, do tell me if I'm wrong: does the Quran not say not to listen Kuffir's advice in matters of what to believe?

format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
i see it is completely ridiculous do you this that QURAAN will go desribe the composition of the body that it consists from 21 aminoacids and then names them like leucine ,arginine methionine ...etc to be satisfied ?
It'd be a nice start. But I agree, it's completely ridiculous to expect that sort of thing from a book almost 1½ millennia old, unless, of course, it's sent from Allah himself who is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. But does it do that? No. Does it indeed say anything about the sub-microscopic world in any sensical non-ambiguous manner? No, it doesn't, because the first magnifying lens wasn't invented until 3 centuries after the Qurans arrival.

format_quote Originally Posted by tarek samy
what makes earth the only planet of life ? it is water which is absent from all other palnets you are forcing me into this basic discussion but no problem it is obvious and easy judgable
Sigh, when astronomers say that they look for water first when searching for life on other planets there's actually a reason for it:
1. Water is essential for biological life, just like carbon, sulphur, nitrogen and phosphorous. If one of these are missing, life can't be, they're all equally important in this aspect.
2. Flowing water is easier to identify with a telescope, compared to the other elements.
3. Different from the other elements water is a compund of hydrogen and oxygen (2 other elements) which requires certain circumstances to exist in a useful, life-supporting form. The air-pressure needs to be right, otherwise the water will simply evaporate into space or solidify, same thing goes for temperature. As such, liquid water is rare compared to the other elements, and since it is still essential for life to exist, it only makes sense to focus first and foremost on water when searching for life. But that does not, by no means, make it more/most essential for life to exist than any of the other compounds.
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-20-2008, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
To this Zarasusdk dude,
Why do u think ur soo smart and think Muslims are stupid like no Muslim has ever thought "logically" about the quran or learned any science. Just cuz ur atheist and think religion is worthless doesn't mean ur smart there are many people 1000000s of times smarter and more logical than you that are muslim. What qualifications do u have anyway? I mean for some reason it just seems to me like u think u know more and have read more than any Muslim hear. Have you ever read the Quran?
I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

Of education I am a philosopher (you know, the guys who discovered how LOGIC works almost a 1000 years before the Quran went to print).

And no, I haven't read the Quran because it (like the bible) basically goes "The Quran is the message Allah because it says so in the Quran, and because of that Allah must exist" which is circular reasoning and not proof of anything. The amount of content does not change anything, you can stuff a turkey all you want, it's still a turkey afterwards.

So Shakoor15-guy, I'm sure you find the Quran exhilerating and beautiful, that does not mean it's true. There are heaps of would-be proofs of an omnipotent god out there, some quite well thought out and advanced, yet all fail when logic is applied to them. All I can say is, those would-be proofs are leagues and bounds better than "This book says so, ergo it must be true".
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Tornado
12-20-2008, 11:28 PM
Intelligence and being religious are seperate. There are tons of incredibly intelligent people who are atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Christians, and etc.,

The take home message is, as czgibson said, is that these miracles aren't undisputed.
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BlackMamba
12-20-2008, 11:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

Of education I am a philosopher (you know, the guys who discovered how LOGIC works almost a 1000 years before the Quran went to print).

And no, I haven't read the Quran because it (like the bible) basically goes "The Quran is the message Allah because it says so in the Quran, and because of that Allah must exist" which is circular reasoning and not proof of anything. The amount of content does not change anything, you can stuff a turkey all you want, it's still a turkey afterwards.

So Shakoor15-guy, I'm sure you find the Quran exhilerating and beautiful, that does not mean it's true. There are heaps of would-be proofs of an omnipotent god out there, some quite well thought out and advanced, yet all fail when logic is applied to them. All I can say is, those would-be proofs are leagues and bounds better than "This book says so, ergo it must be true".
Wow man there you go again just listen to yourself go and re-read your posts. First you say that you haven't read the Quran, then in the very next sentence you try to sum up the Quran in one line as if you have mastered all the aspects of the Quran. Who do you think you are? And I've noticed that you've been doing this throughout the whole thread just acting like you are better than everyone.
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ZarathustraDK
12-21-2008, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Wow man there you go again just listen to yourself go and re-read your posts. First you say that you haven't read the Quran, then in the very next sentence you try to sum up the Quran in one line as if you have mastered all the aspects of the Quran. Who do you think you are? And I've noticed that you've been doing this throughout the whole thread just acting like you are better than everyone.
I have supplied explanations and refutations for all your...musings... What have you supplied other than attempts trying to sully my background?

Truth does not care about whether you like the form in which it is delivered, that's the beauty of it. If it's true, then it's true.

Truth doesn't care whether you are an imam, Stephen Hawking or a buffoon, which is why not having read the Quran is not a prerequisite for questioning its veracity. How do you think new knowledge is discovered in this world? It's done by having a discoverer of something new being put into a shower of questions from fellow humans in order to see if his claims holds true in light of that which we know to be true with absolute certainty.
In your eyes new knowledge is discovered by having somebody supposedly discover something new, write a book about it, then "prove" its veracity by telling everyone who read the book that the book is to be read as it was the utmost truth in the world. Of course the book will be "true" on that premise, however we do not live in a world where we can say (with any sort of certainty) that that premise is fulfilled.
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tarek samy
12-21-2008, 02:08 AM
i see you supply no evidence of what you say your way of writing is so mysterious you dont go to the point but you spin times and times again . you say unbalanced words how you compare your discussion in religion to discussion about britany spears ? yes you must read QURAAN before you discuss it unless you do you will copletely biased

i seek all believers in the miracles of QURAAN to say SUBHANALLAH
say it from all of your hearts and wipe out any illusions
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Najm
12-21-2008, 02:28 AM
Peace

"In the 21st Century, the term "flat-earther" is used to describe someone who is spectacularly - and seemingly wilfully - ignorant. But there is a group of people who claim they believe the planet really is flat."

...Source...

Maybe its flat for some people here too, woops i meant "flat-earther" :rollseyes

Peace.
Reply

BlackMamba
12-21-2008, 06:18 AM
Zarathustra I'm not just trying to attack your background because quite frankly I know nothing about you. But, you cannot just come on an Islamic forum and disrespect the Quran, a book which has been read, memorized, and analyzed by billions of people for the past 1430 years all without even reading the Quran. I'm sorry but it just does not work like that.
And just a question to you and other atheist/agnostics on the forum. What is it that brings you to this Islamic forum and makes you discuss religion, something that you reject. Like if I was without a relgion and certaiN about disbelief theN I would NEVER waste my time discussing it I'd be out being free doing all haram things.
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K.Venugopal
12-21-2008, 08:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Maurice Bucaille did.


Here you go.
http://www.islamicbulletin.org/newsl.../embraced.aspx


Interesting to note his reasons for not openly professing his belife. THis is most proabably the same case with Moore. THey dont want their reputation to be lost.
From Wikipedia:
Criticism has been made both of Bucaille's book in particular and Bucailleism in general. Theoretical physicist Parvez Hoodbhoy of Pakistan identifies the problem with such claims to ownership is that they lack an explanation for why quantum mechanics, molecular genetics, etc., had to await discovery elsewhere. Nor is any kind of testable prediction ever made. No reason is offered as to why antibiotics, aspirin, steam engines, electricity, aircraft, or computers were not first invented by Muslims. But even to ask such questions is considered offensive.
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Hamayun
12-21-2008, 10:07 AM
ZarathustraDK if you haven't got anything sensible to say then please refrain from spamming the threads with your ignorant and un-educated banter.

So far I haven't seen a single mature and educated post from you. Take your crusade somewhere else please.
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ZarathustraDK
12-21-2008, 12:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
ZarathustraDK if you haven't got anything sensible to say then please refrain from spamming the threads with your ignorant and un-educated banter.

So far I haven't seen a single mature and educated post from you. Take your crusade somewhere else please.
Sensible? Sensible?! All I've been doing is saying sensible things that are perfectly in tune with logic. I've received nothing but appeals to emotion in return. I truly get that you guys adore the Quran, really, I get it, but that is a love one has to overlook when discussing anything objectively, otherwise one is biased. To me, the Quran is just another book, it's not something I hate or resent. Age doesn't matter. Amount of people following it doesn't matter.
I have yet to see any proof that the Quran is anything more than a heartwarming fiction. I shouldn't be the one finding the proof that your holybook and your claims are true, you should. Yes I employ skepticism as a rule, the same skepticism that keeps me from being run over by cars in the street, and not eating food that I have doubts about whether it's properly cooked or not. You are telling me to disregard those instincts and throw myself before a god unquestioningly, without even demanding proof for its existence?! You call that "sensible"?

Now, if I were to call you "un-educated", your statements "ignorant banter", accuse you of immaturity and crusading, would you take offense? I think you'd think such accusations merit nothing but pity when unfounded. So please stop attacking my background, it's pitiful.
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ZarathustraDK
12-21-2008, 01:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Zarathustra I'm not just trying to attack your background because quite frankly I know nothing about you. But, you cannot just come on an Islamic forum and disrespect the Quran, a book which has been read, memorized, and analyzed by billions of people for the past 1430 years all without even reading the Quran. I'm sorry but it just does not work like that.
I don't see myself as disrespecting the Quran. It's just a book to me like any other book. I respect that you like the Quran, you have every right to do so. However, we're not discussing your right to love stuff, we're talking about supposed miracles claimed to exist. Miracles that, if true, also has an impact on my reality.

I know the argumentation may piss you off, but trust me when I say it is not my intention. I simply think that the question of the existence of an omni-potent god is too important to hampered by "respectfullness" and overtly avoiding certain words and questions because it might set off some people. I mean, it's like...the most fundamental question of the whole universe, and people seem to care more about making "yo momma"-insults.

format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
And just a question to you and other atheist/agnostics on the forum. What is it that brings you to this Islamic forum and makes you discuss religion, something that you reject. Like if I was without a relgion and certaiN about disbelief theN I would NEVER waste my time discussing it I'd be out being free doing all haram things.
It's no fun to discuss anything if everyone agrees with you.
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Hamayun
12-21-2008, 01:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
You are telling me to disregard those instincts and throw myself before a god unquestioningly, without even demanding proof for its existence?! You call that "sensible"?
I am not telling you to do anything :?

I did not come looking for you...

I did not impose my opinions on you...

I did not expect you to share the same faith or ideology as me...


You on the other hand...

You have come to an Islamic forum...

You are hurling your opinions at people...

You are trying to impose your logic and way of thinking on Muslims on a Muslim forum.

Now the question arises... why are you really here?

Bored? Thought you could enlighten the Gullible and primitive Muslims? Why are you here really?
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Tony
12-21-2008, 04:56 PM
ZarathustraDK, Peace. I get why your here, but to many who beleive in Allahs oneness we dont need any logical explanations, tere are plenty, but seriouslly when you have had a prayer answered and what you get in your heart once accepted Islam, there really is no way we can deny Him. Think about it, we wouldnt all follow Islam if we had tried it and found it empty. For those of us who are really Muslim and fulfill our covenant we know without needing logic. It is a way where the highest in human esteem and the lowest are equal in the eyes of Allah, the Qur'an can be understood b all intellectual students and uneducared people alike. I wish you peaece but I think you are striving for a format or logic that you may never find. For a truly logical discuccion I strongly suggest you go and talk to a scholar within a mosque and you may find your answers.I would like to be able to say whatever it is that would make you see that what we beleive is truth, but I cannott, and for my own part I have proof. Please go and discuss at a mosque, they will welcome you I am sure. I think its highly commendable that you search for truth, but I also think that truth can be so subtle it is easy to miss. I wish you peace and respect.
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ZarathustraDK
12-21-2008, 09:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I am not telling you to do anything :?
You are telling me to stop using logic in my attempts to establish common ground with you. If I can't do that, then what can I do?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I did not impose my opinions on you...
Maybe not, you just think I'm an immature ignoramus full of un-educated banter.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I did not expect you to share the same faith or ideology as me...
Neither did I. I did, however, expect a certain amount of adherence to logic, as it is the basis of language and discourse. Is it impossible for us to have meaningful discourse? No, you can read my words and understand them, you simply don't like them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
You on the other hand...

You have come to an Islamic forum...
Yes, I have.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
You are hurling your opinions at people...
Ehh no, I am not. Everything I've said I'm ready to explain why is so in an exact and non-ambiguous manner, visible and self-evident to all, also known as proof. I did not go on a rampage demanding respect, demanding university-degrees, and generally avoid answering tough questions whenever it suits me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
You are trying to impose your logic and way of thinking on Muslims on a Muslim forum.
Yet you have no problems communicating with me in a language that is logically build up by grammar and sentences that carry a certain meaning. Logic is not a choice or something that is imposed, it simply is. 1+1=2, not because I want to impose it someone, it just works that way self-evidently. Fallacies are nothing but an extention of that, just as simple, it's not a matter whether I want to believe they're right and wrong, they simply are, sometimes to my own detriment. It's not like I regard you as logic-kuffirs or something like that :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Now the question arises... why are you really here?

Bored? Thought you could enlighten the Gullible and primitive Muslims? Why are you here really?
What's with the paranoia? I just enjoy a good religion-discussion every once in a while. It's that whole "proof which is not proof"-thing I'm trying to understand, how it can be so. But if it'd make you feel any better then pretend I'm a secret service-agent looking for shoes :statisfie Seriously, I don't give a **** about politics, Bush, terrorists, Ayaan, hijabs or the KKK when discussing a certain topic (unless, of course, they themselves are the topic), I would consider it "haram" to let my heart influence my mind in such a way when discussing on a forum because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
Reply

Tony
12-22-2008, 07:03 AM
Look people this is not a thread dedicated to affording attention to someone is absolutely against beleif. Let it go now. Allah knows best and as Muslims that is enough. Peace
Reply

Hamayun
12-22-2008, 08:04 PM
You are telling me to stop using logic in my attempts to establish common ground with you. If I can't do that, then what can I do?
As mentioned before I never asked you to stop/start using logic or anything of the sort. Feel free to use whatever logic you fancy. Good for you I say...

Common grounds?? Doesn't really bother me whether you do or don't. I am not looking for common grounds.

Quran 109:3 to 109:6:
(3) And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) To you be your Way, and to me mine. (6)


Neither did I. I did, however, expect a certain amount of adherence to logic, as it is the basis of language and discourse. Is it impossible for us to have meaningful discourse? No, you can read my words and understand them, you simply don't like them.
I don't dislike your words... I just dont share the same "logic". After all what is logical to you is not necessarily logical to all living creatures. There are many murders and crimes commtted everyday because it seems logical to those people. Thanks but no thanks for the lesson on logic.


Yes, I have.
Great.

Ehh no, I am not. Everything I've said I'm ready to explain why is so in an exact and non-ambiguous manner, visible and self-evident to all, also known as proof. I did not go on a rampage demanding respect, demanding university-degrees, and generally avoid answering tough questions whenever it suits me.
There is nothing you can explain that hasn't already been repeated millions of times over the last few centuries. I think it would be a "logical" choice to find another source of amusement.

Yet you have no problems communicating with me in a language that is logically build up by grammar and sentences that carry a certain meaning. Logic is not a choice or something that is imposed, it simply is. 1+1=2, not because I want to impose it someone, it just works that way self-evidently. Fallacies are nothing but an extention of that, just as simple, it's not a matter whether I want to believe they're right and wrong, they simply are, sometimes to my own detriment. It's not like I regard you as logic-kuffirs or something like that :)
Thanks. I appreciate your kindness.

What's with the paranoia? I just enjoy a good religion-discussion every once in a while. It's that whole "proof which is not proof"-thing I'm trying to understand, how it can be so. But if it'd make you feel any better then pretend I'm a secret service-agent looking for shoes :statisfie Seriously, I don't give a **** about politics, Bush, terrorists, Ayaan, hijabs or the KKK when discussing a certain topic (unless, of course, they themselves are the topic), I would consider it "haram" to let my heart influence my mind in such a way when discussing on a forum because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
The Quran is a book of guidance and not an encyclopedia. People who try to use it as an encyclopedia are diluting its credibility. Let the Quran be what it is. A book of guidance and blessing to mankind.

There is nothing that you can prove/disprove without the other person producing his "proof".

Do a search.. you will find all these questions have been asked before..

Peace
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ZarathustraDK
12-22-2008, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Common grounds?? Doesn't really bother me whether you do or don't. I am not looking for common grounds.
That sort of rules out any form meaningful discussions between you and non-muslims.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I don't dislike your words... I just dont share the same "logic". After all what is logical to you is not necessarily logical to all living creatures. There are many murders and crimes commtted everyday because it seems logical to those people. Thanks but no thanks for the lesson on logic.
It may not be logical to people, that does not exempt people from logic. I may not believe in gravity, that does not mean I can fly.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
The Quran is a book of guidance and not an encyclopedia. People who try to use it as an encyclopedia are diluting its credibility. Let the Quran be what it is. A book of guidance and blessing to mankind.

There is nothing that you can prove/disprove without the other person producing his "proof".

Do a search.. you will find all these questions have been asked before.
I am more intersted in figuring out exactly where chain comes off in regards to logic/islam. I mean, we can agree that 1+1=2, we can agree that we understand each others sentences, no problem. You guys use the internet (and probably also a lot of other space-age technology), so somewhere I guess you must also agree on the logic which created those things (or do you think they were divinely inspired to the people who created them?).

The chain definitely is off when logic says something nasty about Allah or muslims in general. Is it simply when logic violates the axiom (I guess you could call it) of the Quran that it's bunk? So that you, from my point of view, do a big switcharoo of logic and Allah?

If so, then I hope you can see why this is "cheating" the rest of the world in any practical and mundane matters (politics for instance) relating to islam; because it'd mean that you can use logic and "proper" argumentation against people not of your belief to further a given goal, yet declare yourself exempt from the same arguments/reasoning when used against you because it violates the sanctity of the Quran which permeates every aspect of your life.

That's like playing a soccer-match where one team grants itself the right to pick up the ball with their hands without penalty. :)
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Hamayun
12-22-2008, 11:09 PM
Look bro. Your opninions are already formed and mind made up. I do enjoy a good discussion with people who actually listen.

Sorry but you are not here to listen... only here to talk and confirm your opinions.

Good luck with whatever you want to acheive but I would rather converse with people who are honestly here to learn about Islam.

You wanna talk about Islam? Read the Quran.... then when you find your so called "illogical" verses post them up and ask for explanations.

I don't do red herrings...
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tarek samy
12-23-2008, 12:25 AM
SUBHANALLAH

THE more i hear , the more i see the more i feel the more i think the more i realize.

the more i pray the more i thank ALLAH for making me MUslim the more i feel enslaved to this great religion .
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ZarathustraDK
12-23-2008, 12:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Look bro. Your opninions are already formed and mind made up. I do enjoy a good discussion with people who actually listen.
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

It is not I whose opinions are already made up.

But let me guess, I've either:

a) Quoted those verses out of context.
b) Need to learn arabic in order to get the "true" message.
c) You've got some hadiths to counter it with (and vice versa if I use hadiths).

As for the illogical verses, lets compare these two for instance:

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69

and then :

Unbelievers are those that say:
"God is the Messiah, the son of Mary." For the Messiah himself said:
"Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord."
He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him Paradise,
and the fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers.
-- Sura 5:72

I'm sure the christians would like to know where they go after they die.
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tarek samy
12-23-2008, 01:02 AM
if you do want to know the answer to your questions you are welcome although this is not our topic

as for fighting (Jihad) it is a must for the MUSLIMS but for certain reasons we fight for two purposes :

first : to defend ourselves when we are attacked or invaded
second : to spread the message of islam
however we dont force any one to embrace islam we just spread the message and everybody can choose .
morever we are ordered not to kill children women or elderly not to knock down any church
as for the second issue : to discuss it you should have good knowlege of Quraan as many verse have spoken about christian and jews but no contradiction in them .
christians and jews who worship ALLAh only and who believe that messiah(pbuh)is human and the messanger of allah ,those are different from the chritians who believe that messiah is god . of course QURAAN is obvious that ALLAH IS THE ONLY GOD and messiah(pbuh) is a messanger from ALLAH . any one who thinks that messiah is god is is not considerd believer
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wth1257
12-23-2008, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

It is not I whose opinions are already made up.
lol. Yes you have. That seems pretty clear



a) Quoted those verses out of context.
Well. Out of a five hundred book you have posted two unconnected sentences hundreds of pages apart. I'd say that is out of context. Your screen name is a knock off of a very accomplished philologist, you should have noted that:p

b) Need to learn arabic in order to get the "true" message.
that's probably true. Plenty of non Muslim arabists would agree with it

c) You've got some hadiths to counter it with (and vice versa if I use hadiths).
I don't believe a Hadith could be contrary to the Qur'an

As for the illogical verses, lets compare these two for instance:

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69

and then :

Unbelievers are those that say:
"God is the Messiah, the son of Mary." For the Messiah himself said:
"Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord."
He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him Paradise,
and the fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers.
-- Sura 5:72

I'm sure the christians would like to know where they go after they die.
The first is referring to true Jews and Christians who practice islam, the latter referres to "Jews" and "Christian" who have introduced "innovations" into their pristine revelations, hence the innovative doctrines enumerated in the latter.

I think that is fairly clear independent of one being an Islamic Scholar, Arabist, or Muslim.

If that is wrong perhaps one of the Muslims here could correct me.
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ZarathustraDK
12-23-2008, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Well. Out of a five hundred book you have posted two unconnected sentences hundreds of pages apart. I'd say that is out of context. Your screen name is a knock off of a very accomplished philologist, you should have noted that:p
My screen name is a dichotomy. It may refer to the teachings of Zarathustra, it may refer to Zarathustra in Nietzches "Thus spoke Zarathustra", who is clearly not anything of the sort. Point is, there is no middleground, either god exists or he doesn't, I wish to find out which.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
I don't believe a Hadith could be contrary to the Qur'an
It hasn't stopped other muslims I've debated with from doing it, these people haven't done that yet though, so I'll give them the benefit of doubt.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
The first is referring to true Jews and Christians who practice islam, the latter referres to "Jews" and "Christian" who have introduced "innovations" into their pristine revelations, hence the innovative doctrines enumerated in the latter.
Like what? It clearly says that people who believe God is the messiah, son of Mary (aka Jesus) are unbelievers. That means any christian who believe in the trinity is an unbeliever. I mean, either it's a contradiction in verses, or it's a contradiction to reality, since christians historically has always considered Jesus to be the lord, and of the same nature as god.
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tarek samy
12-23-2008, 03:46 PM
i wonder where did you get such great deal of stubbotness taht you ddont see what is clearly seen and leaves you with no common since .
what you have written all over here is not worthy replying however it is just like making loud noise . ofcourse Quraan can nevere has such clear contradiction .moreover who told you that natural christians those who contempelated MESSIAH(PBUH) consider him god
you are totally biased
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wth1257
12-23-2008, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
My screen name is a dichotomy. It may refer to the teachings of Zarathustra, it may refer to Zarathustra in Nietzches "Thus spoke Zarathustra", who is clearly not anything of the sort. Point is, there is no middleground, either god exists or he doesn't, I wish to find out which.

Well I don't recall Zarathustra having a profession so I am probably referring to Nietzsche, who was an accomplished philologist before parting ways with his University. Yes, you could have been referring to the founder of Zoroastrianism, but he is usually known in the West as Zoroaster.

Regardless, the origins of your title were incidental to my point, namely that the two sentences are clearly out of context. Perhaps your connotation is correct, that also is irrelevant to my point; however, seeing as it was more whimsical than anything else, I fair to see why we must remain hung up on it.



It hasn't stopped other muslims I've debated with from doing it, these people haven't done that yet though, so I'll give them the benefit of doubt.
The benefit of what doubt? That they are using their own religious texts correctly?



Like what?
Like what, what?

I don't know what you want an example of.

It clearly says that people who believe God is the messiah, son of Mary (aka Jesus) are unbelievers.
It is an innovation and they have assigned partners to God is the message I believe. The Qur'an very clearly says that in it's accounting of events Jesus would have fervently denied any claims to divinity.

That means any christian who believe in the trinity is an unbeliever.
I suppose, but being a non Muslim I am hesitant to say so definitively

I mean, either it's a contradiction in verses
I think it clearly is not if one reads it carefully and pays attention

or it's a contradiction to reality
That is possible, but a distinct claim from the one you advanced previously

since christians historically has always considered Jesus to be the lord, and of the same nature as god.
False. A Christian may argue that the Trinity goes back to the teachings of Jesus, but no one could argue that the early body of "Christians" was a homogenous sect. Even within the Gospels we see changes and differences of understanding, for example the more prophetic, human Jesus of Mark as opposed to the more divine Jesus of John. Whether the trinity was organic to Jesus’ message or the result of Paulism and the infusion of Hellenism in a Jewish religious movement is debatable, but such a blanket statement of the beliefs of "Christians" is unfounded.
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wth1257
12-23-2008, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK

Of education I am a philosopher (you know, the guys who discovered how LOGIC works almost a 1000 years before the Quran went to print).
I hate to be a bug however Aristotelian logic did not "discover how logic works". His accounting of logic was far from definitive and could only represent very basic propositional logic. Moreover it was not on a solid foundation. The "logical renaissance" began with Leibniz or Boole who were both born some time after the Muhammad. Frege, who introduced a coherent quantification of logic, and Cantor, who introduced set theory, were both men of the late 19th century and early 20th centuries. "Philosophers" may have held sole custody of "logic" for a long time, but it was impotent, ineffectual, and utterly primitive to what we would now call logic, which is as much the intellectual property, if not more so, of mathematicians as philosophers.

And no, I haven't read the Quran because it (like the bible) basically goes "The Quran is the message Allah because it says so in the Quran, and because of that Allah must exist" which is circular reasoning and not proof of anything.
Lol. I should switch to a philosophy major, I suppose they could teach me how to derive the contents of a text without reading it.




MAGIC!

And fyi Islam while the Qur'an does refer to itself as proof of it's divine origins I am not aware of any such claims that are solely authoritarian, and it utilizes teleological appeals much more.
Reply

Hamayun
12-23-2008, 07:10 PM
Thanks wth1257 you have more patience than I do.

I was hoping ZarathustraDK could do better than that.

He picked the two most shallow and lame questions from some Anti-Islamic website. It proves his true intentions behind coming here.

I wouldn't waste my breath on him since he doesn't even know the basics of Islam. Leave him alone and he will soon get bored and leave.

Also wth1257 its good you know so much even though you are not a Muslim. I admire that :)
Reply

wth1257
12-23-2008, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Thanks wth1257 you have more patience than I do.

I was hoping ZarathustraDK could do better than that.

He picked the two most shallow and lame questions from some Anti-Islamic website. It proves his true intentions behind coming here.

I wouldn't waste my breath on him since he doesn't even know the basics of Islam. Leave him alone and he will soon get bored and leave.
we'll see:blind:

Also wth1257 its good you know so much even though you are not a Muslim. I admire that :)
Thank you: )

But I don't know that much.
Reply

Trumble
12-23-2008, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
I hate to be a bug however Aristotelian logic did not "discover how logic works". His accounting of logic was far from definitive and could only represent very basic propositional logic. Moreover it was not on a solid foundation. The "logical renaissance" began with Leibniz or Boole who were both born some time after the Muhammad. Frege, who introduced a coherent quantification of logic, and Cantor, who introduced set theory, were both men of the late 19th century and early 20th centuries. "Philosophers" may have held sole custody of "logic" for a long time, but it was impotent, ineffectual, and utterly primitive to what we would now call logic, which is as much the intellectual property, if not more so, of mathematicians as philosophers.
Yes. And (mostly) no. The vast majority of successful argumentation involves nothing more complicated than just that 'basic propositional logic'; maybe a hypothetical syllogism here or a modus ponens there. Those, and similar basic forms, were well known to both Greeks and Romans. Far from being "impotent" and "ineffectual" (where on earth did you get that from?) they are immensely powerful and perfectly adequate for most philosophical and general arguments. Are you a mathematician, by any chance? :rollseyes:D
Reply

wth1257
12-23-2008, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Yes. And (mostly) no. The vast majority of successful argumentation involves nothing more complicated than just that 'basic propositional logic'; maybe a hypothetical syllogism here or a modus ponens there. Those, and similar basic forms, were well known to both Greeks and Romans. Far from being "impotent" and "ineffectual" (where on earth did you get that from?) they are immensely powerful and perfectly adequate for most philosophical and general arguments.
"Impotent and ineffectual" as compared to contemporary mathematical logic. I would disagree about the utility of propositional logic. While it is perfectly apt for some common discussions it has severe limitations, as the classical example goes "All men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal" exceeds the powers of propositional logic. Similarly, beginning algebra and Euclidian geometry are apt for most situations the average individual to come into contact with. But 16th century algebra is comparable to Aristotelian logic. Both can be used to great utility and most people can get by using little more, but compared to modern mathematics 16th century algebra is incredibly weak and impotent. Brahe and Kepler used contemporary mathematics to great ends, but most of their work could have been done much, much, much more quickly with Calculus.

The comparison is simply enough; get a contemporary text on Mathematical Logic and compare it to Aristotle's. It's like comparing a middle school physical science text to a grad student's text on quantum mechanics.

Not to mention meta logic or a sound theory of logistics systems.

Are you a mathematician, by any chance? :rollseyes:D

no
Reply

wth1257
12-23-2008, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Yes. And (mostly) no. The vast majority of successful argumentation involves nothing more complicated than just that 'basic propositional logic'; maybe a hypothetical syllogism here or a modus ponens there. Those, and similar basic forms, were well known to both Greeks and Romans. Far from being "impotent" and "ineffectual" (where on earth did you get that from?) they are immensely powerful and perfectly adequate for most philosophical and general arguments.
"Impotent and ineffectual" as compared to contemporary mathematical logic. I would disagree about the utility of propositional logic. While it is perfectly apt for some common discussions it has severe limitations, as the classical example goes "All men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal" exceeds the powers of propositional logic. Similarly, beginning algebra and Euclidian geometry are apt for most situations the average individual to come into contact with. But 16th century algebra is comparable to Aristotelian logic. Both can be used to great utility and most people can get by using little more, but compared to modern mathematics 16th century algebra is incredibly weak and impotent. Brahe and Kepler used contemporary mathematics to great ends, but most of their work could have been done much, much, much more quickly with Calculus.

The comparison is simply enough; get a contemporary text on Mathematical Logic and compare it to Aristotle's. It's like comparing a middle school physical science text to a grad student's text on quantum mechanics.

Not to mention meta logic or a sound theory of logistics systems.

Are you a mathematician, by any chance? :rollseyes:D

no
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-26-2008, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Thanks wth1257 you have more patience than I do.

I was hoping ZarathustraDK could do better than that.

He picked the two most shallow and lame questions from some Anti-Islamic website. It proves his true intentions behind coming here.
I simply googled "Quran" and "contradictions", as that was what you asked for, try it yourself. It proves nothing of my inentions, only your own paranoia. I don't understand your antipathy towards me Hamayuun, I've said it once already, I'm only looking for the truth. If you somehow know that Allah exists through some private revelation which is not possible to put into plenum, then simply take heart in the fact that I'm searching for that which you already know to be true; I don't see the reason for you to discourage that.

Lol. I should switch to a philosophy major, I suppose they could teach me how to derive the contents of a text without reading it.
It's very easy, simply study the utterings of the adherents of the given text. Question these, and you are less likely to fall victim to any rhetoric a given text might contain.

As for the whole "history of logic"-lesson, well, Trumble kind of scooped that one up. It makes no difference anyway, it was simply an appeal to antiquity used as a reply to one of its own kind, utterly ridiculous and fallacious, I know. It just seems that since that kind of argument flies in here (what with the whole "we're 2 billion muslims and our book is very old"), I wouldn't want to be left out.

And fyi Islam while the Qur'an does refer to itself as proof of it's divine origins I am not aware of any such claims that are solely authoritarian, and it utilizes teleological appeals much more.
In other words it uses "proof" not considered proof nowadays. Merely translating here.

False. A Christian may argue that the Trinity goes back to the teachings of Jesus, but no one could argue that the early body of "Christians" was a homogenous sect. Even within the Gospels we see changes and differences of understanding, for example the more prophetic, human Jesus of Mark as opposed to the more divine Jesus of John. Whether the trinity was organic to Jesus’ message or the result of Paulism and the infusion of Hellenism in a Jewish religious movement is debatable, but such a blanket statement of the beliefs of "Christians" is unfounded.
True. So, the answer to the riddle is "pretty much all christians nowadays will go to hell if the Quran is true"? I admit I picked the two verses partly because I was interested in getting to know Islams stance on that.

Regardless, the origins of your title were incidental to my point, namely that the two sentences are clearly out of context. Perhaps your connotation is correct, that also is irrelevant to my point; however, seeing as it was more whimsical than anything else, I fair to see why we must remain hung up on it.
Agree.

we'll see :blind:
I'mmmmm back :) The duck tasted wonderful, thank you very much, and I got a couple of tickets to an ABBA-musical weeeee.... :thumbs_up
Reply

wth1257
12-26-2008, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
I simply googled "Quran" and "contradictions", as that was what you asked for, try it yourself.
As you are a Philosopher, if not occupationally then "by education" I would hope you see why this is a poor research method.

It proves nothing of my inentions, only your own paranoia.
I would posit that it says a lot about your willingness to put in the hard work necessary to judge the merits of a religion. This does reflect your intentions to some degree. If you are truly seeking to understand things, Islam in this instance, I suspect you would read the Qur'an thoroughly and seek to understand it, rather than Google "Qur'an contradictions".

I don't understand your antipathy towards me Hamayuun, I've said it once already, I'm only looking for the truth. If you somehow know that Allah exists through some private revelation which is not possible to put into plenum, then simply take heart in the fact that I'm searching for that which you already know to be true; I don't see the reason for you to discourage that.
Good luck



It's very easy, simply study the utterings of the adherents of the given text. Question these, and you are less likely to fall victim to any rhetoric a given text might contain.
Well that's just silly. So if I argue with a philosophy major for a few minutes over Heidegger's hermetical turn I am better able to avoid falling into the rhetorical appeal of Being and Time, and have an adequate understanding of Heidegger's philosophy? You cannot seriously be maintaining that you can understand the contents of the Qur'an by some posts on an internet forum. Never mind the epistemic challenge of how you would know you understand it if you do not read the text and hence have nothing to compare the claims here to.

As for the whole "history of logic"-lesson, well, Trumble kind of scooped that one up.
Hardly, with all due respect to her. I mean that if Trumble reads this, I have no problems with you whatsoever; I just think your argument was incorrect.

It makes no difference anyway, it was simply an appeal to antiquity used as a reply to one of its own kind, utterly ridiculous and fallacious, I know. It just seems that since that kind of argument flies in here (what with the whole "we're 2 billion muslims and our book is very old"), I wouldn't want to be left out.
Alright



In other words it uses "proof" not considered proof nowadays. Merely translating here.
Well I don't know exactly how you understand the contemporary meaning of "proof". Certainly what a mathematician means by proof is distinct from what a philosopher, for the most part, would mean. I don't think the Qur'an intends to claim that it presents deductively valid arguments in a strictly logical sense. Generally the appeals, as I understand them, seem to be surrounding an individual's need to "reflect" on the presented "signs" and more intuitive than strictly rational.


True. So, the answer to the riddle is "pretty much all christians nowadays will go to hell if the Quran is true"? I admit I picked the two verses partly because I was interested in getting to know Islam’s stance on that.

Islam has a somewhat different eschatology and view of salvation/the afterlife than Christianity. You may want to read up on that before asking this particular question.




I'mmmmm back :) The duck tasted wonderful, thank you very much, and I got a couple of tickets to an ABBA-musical weeeee.... :thumbs_up
Merry Christmass
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-27-2008, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
As you are a Philosopher, if not occupationally then "by education" I would hope you see why this is a poor research method.
I'm merely discussing, not writing a Ph.d. I figured writing the suras' numbers and chapters would be enough.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
I would posit that it says a lot about your willingness to put in the hard work necessary to judge the merits of a religion. This does reflect your intentions to some degree. If you are truly seeking to understand things, Islam in this instance, I suspect you would read the Qur'an thoroughly and seek to understand it, rather than Google "Qur'an contradictions".
If I read the Quran I would likely understand Islam better from the point of view that the Quran is true. That is not what I am seeking though. I seek to know IF the Quran is true, a much simpler task in comparison which does not require me to accept the book as the ultimate truth before I doubt the contents of it. Anything can be made true if you assume you have a magic wand from the beginning, it's a subjective can of begging the question I will not open up, I'll leave that for the religion-historians.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Well that's just silly. So if I argue with a philosophy major for a few minutes over Heidegger's hermetical turn I am better able to avoid falling into the rhetorical appeal of Being and Time, and have an adequate understanding of Heidegger's philosophy?
Of course not, but you'd likely understand more about Heidegger's hermetical turn afterwards. I'm simply saying "learning by doing" here.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Well I don't know exactly how you understand the contemporary meaning of "proof". Certainly what a mathematician means by proof is distinct from what a philosopher, for the most part, would mean. I don't think the Qur'an intends to claim that it presents deductively valid arguments in a strictly logical sense. Generally the appeals, as I understand them, seem to be surrounding an individual's need to "reflect" on the presented "signs" and more intuitive than strictly rational.
In other words, convince oneself that intricate things in nature were designed, and down subjectivity-road we go.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. In this case the claim concerns a supposed omnipotent being who created the entire universe, which I'd say would be quite extraordinary. However much one "reflects" on "signs" the only thing that will change is ones own subjective opinion on the matter. This, in turn, will kick the ball on to people stating "it's a matter of belief", which would all well and good if it wasn't for the miniscule fact that practical decisions are made on the basis of this belief every single day.

Suppose i did read the Quran, memorized it, and developed my own opinion of it; what irrevocably true knowledge would I gain from it apart from the trivial? Nothing, because it all the "good stuff" rests on the assumption that Allah exists and that the Quran is his user-manual. I might as well read Harry Potter and assume that magic exists, it'd be the same deal; only I will not be told to read it in latin afterwards to understand the quasi-linguistic mechanics of spell-incantation, or be called a "Muggle" because I opine against Mr. Potters' magnificence.
Reply

Hamayun
12-27-2008, 08:32 PM
What did you expect to find when you googled "Quran contradictions"? Its not surprising you got those off some evalengical anti-Islamic site.

This is my last reply to you and I would advise everyone else to stop wasting their time on you too...

If you really wanted to know the truth you would read the Quran. Your intentions and character are quite clear by your googling. Lazy and arrogant...

Here's some friendly advice.... why dont you google all your questions rather than ask them here?

Shoo troll....
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-28-2008, 01:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
What did you expect to find when you googled "Quran contradictions"? Its not surprising you got those off some evalengical anti-Islamic site.
When it concerns criticism what better place to go to than somewhere critical? I could have gotten the verses from the KKK's homepage for all I care, it wouldn't make a bleeping difference as long as the argument is sound.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
This is my last reply to you and I would advise everyone else to stop wasting their time on you too...

If you really wanted to know the truth you would read the Quran. Your intentions and character are quite clear by your googling. Lazy and arrogant...
Again with the assumptions about my character. I bet if the debate was about hair-lotion you would divine my hair-color from a few google-searches.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Here's some friendly advice.... why dont you google all your questions rather than ask them here?
Here's some friendly advice... why don't you just stop replying if you have nothing to say other than criticizing my character? Your tactics are below contempt, all you've been doing from the beginning is trying to sully me by calling me : lazy, uneducated, immature, arrogant, crusading, and a whole slew of other things while grasping for straws in the dark about my motives and how I'm basically Shaitan incarnate (paid by the CIA) coming to put mischief on your little forum.

Seriously if you want to disgrace me, do it by argumentation not by rhetoric. You could rightfully bash me around if we were discussing the Quran from the assumed premise that it is correct and flawless, but we're NOT. We're talking about miracles happening in intersubjective space which happen to be a place we all share, and so the opinions on the Quran vary, suck it up. If you need reassurance of your faith then I'm pretty sure there are other subforums here that will cater to your needs.
Reply

Hamayun
12-28-2008, 01:48 PM
You want someone to reply to your lame googling attempt? :? Do a search it has been answered at least 50 times. What you posted was nothing more than Anti Islamic propaganda used by Anti-Islamic websites that has no credibility or evidence.

If you are demanding anwers to questions that have already been answered several times, rather than use the search feature then yes! you are lazy and arrogant! I don't have to say this, it is quite apparent from your attitude.

What is your question? :?

State your question clearly with clear references and verses (I mean complete verses, not bits of them taken out of context)

Come back when you have a real question or stop wasting everyone's time.
Reply

Najm
12-28-2008, 02:03 PM
Peace....

Just reminded me of these verses.....

O you who believe! If you help (in the cause of) Allâh, He will help you, and make your foothold firm. (47:7)

But those who disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), for them is destruction, and (Allâh) will make their deeds vain. (47:8)

That is because they hate that which Allâh has sent down (this Qur'ân and Islâmic laws etc.), so He has made their deeds fruitless. (47:9)

Peace
Reply

wth1257
12-29-2008, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
I'm merely discussing, not writing a Ph.d. I figured writing the suras' numbers and chapters would be enough.
Sure, if you’re just shooting the breeze or batting ideas around that's fine. If your talking about serious discussion and honestly understanding a point of view goggling "Qur'an contradictions" is a bad idea. It would be akin to me goggling "Heidegger Contradictions" finding statements espousing his agnosticism and conjoin that with his assertive and unqualified statement that "God does not exist". Of course without the requisite background this appears to be a blatant contradiction. Once I immerse myself in Heidegger's philosophy, however, I quickly see that no such contradiction is present and that Heidegger could make his statement even if he were an avowed theist.



If I read the Quran I would likely understand Islam better from the point of view that the Quran is true.
No, just yesterday I was reading Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained". I think his materialism and reductionist ontology is one of the silliest things I've ever read. In reading his book I was making no presupposition that his philosophy was correct, rather I was simply reading it to understand the content and his point of view. Actually reading the Qur'an as opposed to picking up tid bits on an internet forum is the difference between reading "The Brothers Karamazov" and the spark notes of "The Brothers Karamazov"

That is not what I am seeking though. I seek to know IF the Quran is true, a much simpler task in comparison which does not require me to accept the book as the ultimate truth before I doubt the contents of it.
I sought to know if Daniel Dennett's philosophy was correct. So I started to read the book. I want to know if the Qur'an is true so I read the text to understand it's philosophy, it's various claims, look for absurdities and contradictions.

Anything can be made true if you assume you have a magic wand from the beginning, it's a subjective can of begging the question I will not open up, I'll leave that for the religion-historians.
I know what question begging is, I also know that it is irrelevant to this matter. No question begging is apparent absent your apparent quixotic claim that there is some logical necessity to presuppose a text is true when reading it.



Of course not, but you'd likely understand more about Heidegger's hermetical turn afterwards. I'm simply saying "learning by doing" here.
Assuming the individual actually understood Heidegger. I don't think that anyone here is a great Islamic Scholar nor do they present themselves as such. If I want to understand Heidegger I go to his texts and experts on his philosophy, and I certainly don't limit my research to chatting with philosophy majors in between classes. Yes they can be helpful but to confine oneself to their guidance is a bad idea.



In other words, convince oneself that intricate things in nature were designed, and down subjectivity-road we go.
Not really

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
As much as I like 18th century French Mathematicians it's best not to take paraphrasing of their quotes as dogma. Why? What constitutes an "extraordinary claim" and what suffices as "extraordinary evidence"?

In this case the claim concerns a supposed omnipotent being who created the entire universe, which I'd say would be quite extraordinary.
Perhaps. I find it extraordinary that there are infinitely many prime numbers. I don't know if Euclid's proof constitutes "extraordinary" evidence. I would posit that a claim's being "extraordinary" is relative to the psychology of the assessor. Mathematicians and logicians certainly found Gödel’s incompleteness theorems "extraordinary" yet Gödel didn't understand what all the fuss was about, he said it seemed to be an intuitive and obvious observation.

However much one "reflects" on "signs" the only thing that will change is ones own subjective opinion on the matter.
Except Islam views faith as the result of undeserved God given grace. As I said it is not intended to be a discursive and deductive but intuitive. You’re arguing against the deductive validity of an argument that was never supposed to be deductive.

This, in turn, will kick the ball on to people stating "it's a matter of belief", which would all well and good if it wasn't for the miniscule fact that practical decisions are made on the basis of this belief every single day.
what?

Suppose i did read the Quran, memorized it, and developed my own opinion of it; what irrevocably true knowledge would I gain from it apart from the trivial?
I said you would better understand it. I never said "read the Qur'an and you will immediately receive irrevocably true knowledge"

Nothing, because it all the "good stuff" rests on the assumption that Allah exists and that the Quran is his user-manual.
no

I might as well read Harry Potter and assume that magic exists, it'd be the same deal
No, what would be the "same deal" is if you claimed that Harry Potter contradicts itself because of X and Y. Upon pointing out that X and Y only seem to contradict each other in absence of proper back ground knowledge of the contents of Mrs. Rowling’s work I suggest you read the Harry Potter book series to understand it better rather than picking up tid bits from Google and Harry Potter enthusiasts.

only I will not be told to read it in latin afterwards to understand the quasi-linguistic mechanics of spell-incantation
It would be a good idea if you wanted to better understand some of the connotations present in her spells that become apparent if one knows the Latin behind them.

or be called a "Muggle" because I opine against Mr. Potters' magnificence.
holla!
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-29-2008, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Sure, if you’re just shooting the breeze or batting ideas around that's fine. If your talking about serious discussion and honestly understanding a point of view goggling "Qur'an contradictions" is a bad idea. It would be akin to me goggling "Heidegger Contradictions" finding statements espousing his agnosticism and conjoin that with his assertive and unqualified statement that "God does not exist". Of course without the requisite background this appears to be a blatant contradiction. Once I immerse myself in Heidegger's philosophy, however, I quickly see that no such contradiction is present and that Heidegger could make his statement even if he were an avowed theist.
My reason for shooting the breeze on this is simple. Even if I had the "proper" background, whatever argumentation I'd put forth would be shot down by "it's a misinterpretation" or "read it in arabic" or "you have ulterior motives". It would be, as you so eloquently put it yourself, like discussing spell-incantations with Harry Potter fans; nothing will amount from it except a subjectively induced shoutfest of boo's and hooray's.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
No, just yesterday I was reading Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained". I think his materialism and reductionist ontology is one of the silliest things I've ever read. In reading his book I was making no presupposition that his philosophy was correct, rather I was simply reading it to understand the content and his point of view. Actually reading the Qur'an as opposed to picking up tid bits on an internet forum is the difference between reading "The Brothers Karamazov" and the spark notes of "The Brothers Karamazov"
And would your reading of Dennet had made any difference if it said "this book is true" on the cover? I don't think so.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
I sought to know if Daniel Dennett's philosophy was correct. So I started to read the book. I want to know if the Qur'an is true so I read the text to understand it's philosophy, it's various claims, look for absurdities and contradictions.
You can correctly read Dennet's book and aptly scour it for absurdities, contradictions etc. However you cannot do the same with the Quran because you presuppose Allah to be above logic. Hence all attempts to find contradictions and absurdities, or any other attempt to use logic against the Quran will inevitably fail. It is tantamount to arguing against the ridiculous magic of Harry Potter, you simply can't do that because it is a self-contained fiction which is not supposed to have any likeness to the real world.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
I know what question begging is, I also know that it is irrelevant to this matter. No question begging is apparent absent your apparent quixotic claim that there is some logical necessity to presuppose a text is true when reading it.
You misunderstand. I do not believe there is a logical necessity to presuppose a text is true in order to read it, at the contrary. However, as I said before, any criticism levelled against the Quran and/or islam is swiftly countered with the "Harry Potter fan response", and thus dragged into the morass of subjective interpretation. This is why I say it is painfully obvious that one has to read the Quran from the perspective that it is true before any semi-meaningful discourse can take place, and any positive response gained. It is all made moot though, since the barb of criticism is eradicated by this procedure.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
As much as I like 18th century French Mathematicians it's best not to take paraphrasing of their quotes as dogma. Why? What constitutes an "extraordinary claim" and what suffices as "extraordinary evidence"?

Perhaps. I find it extraordinary that there are infinitely many prime numbers. I don't know if Euclid's proof constitutes "extraordinary" evidence. I would posit that a claim's being "extraordinary" is relative to the psychology of the assessor. Mathematicians and logicians certainly found Gödel’s incompleteness theorems "extraordinary" yet Gödel didn't understand what all the fuss was about, he said it seemed to be an intuitive and obvious observation.
We can discuss where the border between trivial and extraordinary goes for eternity, can we at least agree that the "Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything" is an extraordinary claim? And yes, I know that's Douglas Adams.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Except Islam views faith as the result of undeserved God given grace. As I said it is not intended to be a discursive and deductive but intuitive. You’re arguing against the deductive validity of an argument that was never supposed to be deductive.
Well, good for them. I shall remember that when these intuitions have ramifications on aspects of my everyday which are tuned to the optimal deductively derived result. I don't mind islam or the Quran as an introspective discipline, but when dead people on broomsticks start littering my frontlawn, then I think it's time to have a reality-check (and lock off the door to my roof).

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
I said you would better understand it. I never said "read the Qur'an and you will immediately receive irrevocably true knowledge"
I understand that I'll understand the motives of Voldemort and the constantly tested character, his begoggled magnificence, Harry Potter. It will not make me better at magic.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
No, what would be the "same deal" is if you claimed that Harry Potter contradicts itself because of X and Y. Upon pointing out that X and Y only seem to contradict each other in absence of proper back ground knowledge of the contents of Mrs. Rowling’s work I suggest you read the Harry Potter book series to understand it better rather than picking up tid bits from Google and Harry Potter enthusiasts.
Yes, and why is that? Because Harry Potter is a self-contained work of fiction that has no root in reality. It would always be a fan-on-fan-discussion. Had it been a philosophical treatise then one could apply logic to it, had it been a biological report then one could apply molecular biology to it (+ a dozen other established disciplines). However that is not the case with Harry Potter because it is a complete description of a universe containing magic, muggles, Hogwarts, evil wizards, hooded witches, magical pecking-orders, stone-set worldview etc. Beautiful and romantic I'm sure, but not a dogma that can be succesfully carried into the real world.

format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
It would be a good idea if you wanted to better understand some of the connotations present in her spells that become apparent if one knows the Latin behind them.
I wave my wand and yell "Petrificus!" proudly and loudly, but am only petrified by the lack of desired result. Oh my god, it works!
Reply

Hamayun
12-29-2008, 09:17 PM
What a pointless and fruitless discussion...

Have you actually got any relevant questions or are you just going to constantly throw out red herrings?

I think a mod needs to clear up this thread as it has gone way off topic...
Reply

ZarathustraDK
12-29-2008, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
What a pointless and fruitless discussion...

Have you actually got any relevant questions or are you just going to constantly throw out red herrings?

I think a mod needs to clear up this thread as it has gone way off topic...
It is indeed a major digression, but not one I purposefully perpetrated in order to draw attention away from something, hence it is not a red herring.

My original claim still stands. Kneeling at the altar of an opposing worldview does not automatically make that worldview proven or valid. All hell broke loose just because I mentioned Ayaan Hirsi Ali in an allegory to explain that single point, and show how ridiculous that mode of argumentation can be if not adressed, which was not my intention.
Reply

Wilma_Hum
12-29-2008, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
What a pointless and fruitless discussion...

Have you actually got any relevant questions or are you just going to constantly throw out red herrings?

I think a mod needs to clear up this thread as it has gone way off topic...
Thinks, I have been looking at this thread for some time, just waiting for the right moment.

My first thought when I saw the title was:

As long as there are atheists, there will never be an “undisputed” religious statement.
Reply

Hamayun
12-29-2008, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZarathustraDK
It is indeed a major digression, but not one I purposefully perpetrated in order to draw attention away from something, hence it is not a red herring.

My original claim still stands. Kneeling at the altar of an opposing worldview does not automatically make that worldview proven or valid. All hell broke loose just because I mentioned Ayaan Hirsi Ali in an allegory to explain that single point, and show how ridiculous that mode of argumentation can be if not adressed, which was not my intention.

Even still... all I see is a lot of assorted words which in no way relate to this thread.

If you have a valid question regarding the Quran please ask... if not please stop spamming this thread with irrelevant arguments.
Reply

Muezzin
12-30-2008, 02:48 PM
Harry Potter and the Please Return to the Topic Forthwith Warrant
Reply

wth1257
01-02-2009, 12:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
What a pointless and fruitless discussion...

Have you actually got any relevant questions or are you just going to constantly throw out red herrings?

I think a mod needs to clear up this thread as it has gone way off topic...
I'm sorry. If we have dragged this thread off topic then I will leave it at that.
Reply

Tony
05-19-2009, 06:06 PM
Matters relating to droplets of fluid within the reproduction sequence. Apologies if off topic, How do the non-beleivers out there deal with the fact that sperm are so incredible, certain armoury against being dissolved by female chemicals, tails that drive the body to the egg then jetison so as not to damage the egg cell, devices to penetrate the egg wall. All this and more, they are assembled in stages and all for a journey that it is impossibls to know of through plain evolution with no God involved. The reason I say this (and its not my idea, I saw it on islam channel) is that as far as I am aware not one single sperm has ever re-entered the male body to discharge information gleaned of the journey. Yet of the billions of sperms ejected, mere hundreds get to the egg and only one enters !!!!!!! How do the sperm who are unintelligent know all this and how can they possibly be so well equiped to deal with the journey ? This is a tiny part of an impossible process, it is not impossible when veiwing the process from a beleivers point of veiw, in fact it is the only logical explanation I can find. Why attribute this to Allah ? Apart from being a believer in Allahs oneness anyway , there is specific mentions of seed emitted from the male in water from the correct body area. I must apologise for my lack of qouting the Qur'an, I hope some brother or sister may be able to provide this, also I am not sure how to create links but once again if anyone would like to further this point, the scientist on Islam channel is a Turkish Hodja, I will find out and post his name.
I know I am not the only one who would find this a scientific proof of our Creators almighty power, when the links etc have been added I would really like to hear from some of the agnostics and evolutionists on the subject. Sorry for my lack of info to back up point but the point remains regardless, peace
Reply

Hamayun
05-19-2009, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
I'm sorry. If we have dragged this thread off topic then I will leave it at that.
I wasn't referring to you :)
Reply

Converse02
05-26-2009, 05:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
Yet of the billions of sperms ejected, mere hundreds get to the egg and only one enters !!!!!!! How do the sperm who are unintelligent know all this and how can they possibly be so well equiped to deal with the journey?
This is the God of the Gaps argument. Just because you haven't figure out how one unintelligent sperm is able to enter an egg, it doesn't mean God exists.
Science has answered how only one sperm enters. The membrane of the egg changes once one sperm enters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_activation As far as "armoury against being dissolved by female chemicals, tails that drive the body" and so on, you can look up the evolution of sperm. Surely, if someone designed sperm, only one sperm would be needed to make the journey, instead of billions going and dying off hoping one will reach the egg. Nearly 15% of couples are infertile. If God exists, what a waster.



The fact is, one sperm doesn't always enter. Sometimes, TWO sperm enters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_pregnancies
"In contrast, a partial mole occurs when a normal egg is fertilized by two spermatozoa."
Note that a molar pregnancy can sometimes kill the mom.
If God is tickling the sperm and guiding them, he's sometimes a pretty bad guide.


What about females is born with only one X chromosome (Turner syndrome).


This wouldn't be expect if their was a God designing people or guiding sperm (seriously, do you believe God guides sperm, lol), and completely expected if one accepts blind evolution by natural selection.
Reply

جوري
05-26-2009, 05:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
This is the God of the Gaps argument. Just because you haven't figure out how one unintelligent sperm is able to enter an egg, it doesn't mean God exists.
Science has answered how only one sperm enters. The membrane of the egg changes once one sperm enters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_activation

The fact is, one sperm doesn't always enter. Sometimes, TWO sperm enters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_pregnancies
"In contrast, a partial mole occurs when a normal egg is fertilized by two spermatozoa."
Or a female is born with only one X chromosome (Turner syndrome).

This is to be expected if there was no conscience God designing people, and completely was is expected if chance was involved.
I don't enjoy threads of this nature as I find them ridiculous on both sides.. but sometimes one side is even more ridiculous (such as with your case here).. how is having a hydatidiform mole exactly proof of God's nonexistence?

The fact that they are extremely rare and an aberrancy that aborts before term should actually point the attention as to what goes right all the time that folks take for granted.. It is by defining the baseline for normal that we are able to define abnormal.. & It actually has the opposite effect on most reflecting people!
Reply

جوري
05-26-2009, 05:39 AM
just an excerpt

7. What does a cell need in order to function?
To determine the probability that the first cell was assembled
randomly, we first need to answer the following general question:
what is required in order to make a functional living cell?
In other words, what is the bare minimum number of proteins for a
cell to function at all? If we can answer this, it should help us
determine what the very first cell might have looked like.
As a first step in answering this, it is worthwhile to consider
the simplest known cell that exists in the world today. This is an
organism called "Mycoplasma genitalium" (MG) whose genetic
information is many times smaller than the information in the
human genome: the number of genes required for the functioning of
MG in its natural state is only 517. (Humans have tens of
thousands of genes.)
Recently, researchers have raised the interesting issue: are all
517 of these genes really necessary for MG to function properly?
The answer is No. By removing genes one at a time, researchers
have been able to show that the cell continues to function with
fewer than the total complement of 517. By eliminating more and
more of the genes, it has emerged that MG continues to function
normally as long as there are between 265 and 350 protein-coding
genes (see Hutchison et al., Science vol. 286, p. 2165, 1999). An
earlier estimate of the minimum cell size in nature had suggested
that the minimum number of proteins for cell operation might
indeed be about 250 (J. Maniloff, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol.
93, p, 10004, 1996).
It appears, then, that the simplest cell in the modern world
requires at least 250 proteins in order to survive in viable form.
Many of the 250 (or so) essential proteins in MG have identifiable
14
functions. Hutchison et al. list 13 categories of identified
functions in the MG genome: (1) cell envelope, (2) cellular
processes, (3) central intermediary metabolism, (4) co-factors and
carriers, (5) DNA metabolism, (6) energy metabolism, (7) fatty
acid metabolism, (8) nucleotides, (9) protein fate, (10) protein
synthesis, (11) regulatory functions, (12) transport/binding
proteins, and (13) transcription. Each of these 13 categories
contains multiple genes, so that (e.g.) protein synthesis does not
depend solely on a single protein for its operation: there are
backups and multiple redundancies in each category. For example,
some 19 proteins are used for membrane maintenance (category (1)).
About 150 of the MG proteins can be assigned with some confidence
to one of the 13 categories.
However, more than 100 of the MG genes perform functions that are
currently unidentified. Nevertheless, the cell certainly requires
them: without them, there is empirical proof that the cell fails
to function.
8. The first cells to appear on Earth: reducing the requirements
to an absolute minimum
It might be argued that the first cells to appear on Earth were
smaller than the simplest cells (such as MG) that exist in the
world today. Those primitive cells might have been able to operate
with many fewer proteins than the 265 needed by MG.
Although we will use this argument below, it is actually difficult
to substantiate. The mathematician John Von Neumann estimated the
bare necessities which are necessary in order to construct what he
referred to as “a self-replicating machine” (Theory of Self-
Reproducing Automata: Univ. of Illinois press, 1966). It has been
a popular exercise among science fiction writers to use this idea
in connection with how a civilization might colonize a galaxy by
sending out machines. Von Neumann concluded that the number of
parts in one such machine must be in the millions. Other authors
have reduced this estimate somewhat, but even according to the
most optimistic estimate, the numbers remain very large: the best
estimates suggest that there must be between 105 and 106 parts in a
self-replicating machine. This means that the genome needs at
least 105 bits in order to metabolize and replicate (Yockey, p.
334). Using the information content in a typical modern protein,
Yockey concludes that the original genome must have been able to
specify at least 267 proteins. The fact that this is close to the
minimum number required for a modern cell (such as MG) suggests
that one is not necessarily permitted to assume that the original
15
cell contained significantly fewer proteins than the smallest
modern cell.
Nevertheless, other authors have argued that the Von Neumann
approach is overly restrictive. E.g., Niesert (1987, origins of
Life 17, 155)) estimates that the first cell might have been able
to operate with as few as 300-400 amino acids.
Which of these various estimates of minimum requirements for the
first cell should we consider? There must be some absolute minimum
requirements for making even the simplest cell. For example, one
might argue that, among the 12 non-regulatory categories of gene
functions listed by Hutchison et al., one representative protein
should be present in the first cell. And each of these 12 proteins
should have an accompanying protein to serve in a regulatory role.
This line of reasoning would suggest that 24 proteins are a
minimum for cell operation.
Can we reduce this to an even barer minimum? Examples of minimum
cell requirements have been summarized by the paleontologist
George Gaylord Simpson. Of the 13 categories listed by Hutchison
et al, Simpson narrows down the bare minimum to the following: (i)
energy generation, (ii) storing information; (iii) replicating
information; (iv) an enclosure to prevent dispersal of the
interacting sub-structures; (v) digestion of food; (vi) waste
product ejection (Science vol. 143, p. 771, 1964).
In view of these bare-bones requirements, it is hard to imagine
how any cell could function without at least the following six
types of proteins: (i) those that help to digest food, (ii) those
that generate energy for cell operations, (iii) those that carry
away waste products, (iv) those that preserve and repair the cell
membrane, (v) those that determine when reproduction is to occur,
and (vi) those which actually catalyze the tasks of reproduction.
Corresponding to each of these six, there must be a regulatory
protein which ensures that the corresponding protein does not
“express itself” in the wrong location in the cell.
It is hard to imagine how a living cell would exist at all if it
failed to contain at least these 12 proteins.
The fact that the simplest cell in the modern world (MG) requires
265 proteins as a bare minimum in order to function makes our
estimate of 12 proteins look ridiculously small. But since it is
possible that the first living cells may have been much simpler
than those we find in the world today, let us make the (perhaps
16
absurdly reductionist) assumption that the first cells in fact
were able to operate on the basis of the bare minimum 12 proteins.
As an illustration of how reductionist our assumption is, we note
that in the first cell, we are assuming that a single protein is
responsible for ensuring proper functioning of the lipid membrane
of that cell. In contrast, the smallest known cell in the modern
world (MG) uses 19 genes to encode for lipoproteins (Hutchison et
al. Science vol. 286, p. 2166). The use of 19 genes in the modern
cell is an example of the large amount of redundancy that nature
uses to ensure that the membrane survives. But the first cell may
not have had the luxury of redundancy: it may have been forced to
survive using only one gene for its membrane. It would have been a
precarious existence.
We have argued that each protein must contain at least 14 amino
acids: thus our bare minimum cell, with 12 proteins and 14 amino
acids in each, contains 168 amino acids. This is even smaller than
the bare minimum of 300-400 amino acids described by Niesert
(1987, Origins of Life, 17, 155). The DNA of our minimal (12-14)
cell would contain only about 500 bases. This is 10 times shorter
than the genome of a certain virus (PHI-X 174) which transmits 9
proteins. It is widely believed that a virus cannot be regarded as
a “living cell” (it has no self-contained replication system), so
this again indicates the extreme nature of our assumption that the
first cell could have as few as 12 proteins. But let us proceed in
the spirit of optimizing the probability that the first cell
appeared by chance.
8.1. The first cell: putting the proteins together by chance
In the early Earth, the commonest concept of conditions back then
is that the primeval "soup" consisted of various chemicals that
were stirred up and forced into contact with one another as a
result of the forces of nature (including rain, ocean currents,
lightning). Simple chemical reactions in the soup were easily able
to create amino acids: these molecules are so small (containing no
more than 10-30 atoms each) that random processes can put them
together quickly from the abundant C, O, N, and H atoms in the
soup. As a result, we expect to find in the primeval soup, in
abundant supply, all of the 22 amino acids that occur in modern
life forms. (For the number 22, see Nature vol. 417, 478, 2002).
In fact, there are more than 100 amino acids in modern nature, but
only 22 are used in proteins. And of those 22, numbers 21 and 22
are rare. Most living material relies on only 20 of these amino
acids, and we will use that number here.
17
To be sure, the “primeval soup” hypothesis is not without its
opponents (e.g. Yockey, pp. 235-241). Laboratory experiments which
claim to replicate conditions in the primeval Earth generate not
only amino acids but also a tarry substance (as the principal
product). This substance should have survived as a non-biological
kerogen in ancient sedimentary rocks, but no evidence for this has
been found. It should not be surprising that, in the primeval
soup, other amino acids, not currently used in life forms, could
have been formed. (This would include the acids that are used in
nylon.) And each of the amino acids which are created randomly in
the primeval soup would be created in two forms: the D-variety and
the L-variety. (These varieties refer to the ability of the
molecule to rotate the polarization of light either right or left:
this ability depends on the chirality of the molecule, i.e. on the
handedness of its 3-dimensional structure.) For reasons that are
not yet obvious, only one of these varieties (the L-variety) is
actually used in present-day life forms. However, the basic
property of amino acids, that they polymerize, operates only
between L alone or D alone: when an L and a D amino acid combine,
their opposite chirality has the effect of locking out any
possibility of further polymerization.
Another difficulty of a very different nature has to do with
reactions in an aqueous solution. The very process of assembling
amino acids into a polypeptide chain (so as to make a protein)
requires the removal of H from the amino radical and the removal
of OH from the acid radical: it is not obvious how these
constituents of a water molecule can be removed in an aqueous
solution.
Despite these difficulties with the primeval soup hypothesis, the
idea of the soup is so widespread in textbooks that it is a
natural starting point for an optimized estimate of probabilities.
In the spirit of the present approach (where we do whatever we can
to optimize the chances of assembling the first cell randomly), we
will simply go along with the textbooks. We shall assume that the
formation of the first cell in the early Earth began in liquid
water where only 20 L-amino acids need to be taken into account.
Other simple chemical reactions in the soup also give rise more or
less quickly to the four bases (two purines and two pyrimidines)
that form the "rungs" of DNA. Why are these formed relatively
readily? Because each base consists on no more than 13-16 atoms,
random processes can also assemble these bases rapidly from the
abundant C, O, N, and H atoms. It was probably more difficult to
form pyrimidines than purines, but the principle is robust:
18
formation of small molecules is essentially inevitable in the
early Earth.
In order for the first cell to come into existence, at least 12
proteins, each with Na amino acids in a specific order, had to
emerge in the same patch of the "primeval soup". To be sure,
individual proteins were probably emerging at random at many
places around the world. But if our aim is to form a complete
living cell, it will not help if the membrane protein emerged (at
random) in China, the energy protein in Russia, and the
replication protein in South America. That will not do: the only
way to have the first cell develop is if all 12 proteins emerge in
close enough proximity to one another to be contained within a
single membrane.
How might this have happened in random processes? By way of
example, let us consider one particular protein, in which the
chain of amino acids happens to be denoted by the series of
letters ABCDEFGHIJKLMN. In order that this protein be made by
chance, amino acid E (say) (one of the 20 commonest in nature)
might have started off by entering into a chemical reaction with
amino acid F (another of the 20), such that the two found it
possible to become connected by a peptide bond. Then amino acid D
might have had a chemical reaction so as to join onto the EF pair
at the left end, forming DEF by means of a new peptide bond. Note
that it is important to form DEF rather than EFD, which would be a
very different protein. This process presumably continued until
the entire 14-unit protein chain ABCDEFGHIJKLMN was complete.
8.2. The first cell: putting the DNA/RNA together by chance
It is not enough to assemble 12 proteins to have a functional
living cell: the cell must be able to reproduce, and for that
the cell needs DNA (or at least RNA). In order to ensure
reproduction of the cell, there had to be (also in the same patch
of the primeval soup) at least 12 genes on an RNA strand, each
containing 3Na+6 bases in a specific order.
Thus, in the very same patch of "soup" where the protein
ABCDEFGHIJ formed by chance, a strand of RNA must have been formed
where the three bases that encode for amino acid A were joined in
a specific order along the RNA strip by a series of chemical
reactions. Then the three bases that encode for amino acid B had
to be added in a specific order to the sidepieces, right next to
the three bases that encode for A. This process must have
continued until the triplets of bases that encode for each of C,
D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, and N respectively were assembled in
19
a specific order into a chain of 30 bases. There would also be one
triplet at each end of the 30-base sequence to serve as markers
for start and stop. This 36-base sequence would then form the gene
for the first protein in the first cell.
Now that we know how the first proteins and RNA/DNA were put
together, we are in a position to estimate the probability that
this will occur by random processes.
9. Probability of protein formation at random
In the example given above, we recall that amino acid (say) E is
only one of 20 amino acids that exist in living matter. Amino acid
F is also one of 20. Therefore, a process that successfully forms
the sequence EF at random out of a soup where all amino acids are
present in equal abundances, has a probability p2 which is roughly
equal to (1/20) times (1/20) = 1/400.
Actually, however, pre-living matter contains not only the Lvariety
of each amino acid, but also the D-variety. Therefore, a
better estimate of the probability p2 that the correct pair of Lamino
acids be formed is (1/40) times (1/40), i.e. p2 = 1/1600.
However, once an L-acid unites with a D-acid, the opposite nature
of their chiralities leads to a “lock-out”: no further
polymerization is possible. So we will optimize probability by
assuming that only the L-variety is present. We therefore take p2 =
1/400.
Another way to state this result is that if we wish to create the
combination EF (both L-variety) by chance, the number of chemical
reactions that must first occur between amino acids in the
primeval soup is about 1/p2, or about 400. That is, if we allow so
much time to elapse that 400 reactions can occur in the primeval
soup, then there is a high probability (close to a certainty) that
the combination EF will appear simply at random.
This argument assumes that the only amino acids in the primeval
soup are the 20 which occur in modern living organism. However,
there were certainly other non-biological amino acids available.
As a result, many more than 400 reactions was almost certainly
required before the combination EF appeared at random. However, we
will optimize the chances for random assembly of the first cell by
ignoring the non-biological amino acids.
After creating EF by random processes, the next step is to have
the next amino acid to join the chain be the L-variety of (say) G,
i.e. only 1 out of the 20 types available. Then the probability
20
that the three amino acids EFG will be assembled in the correct
order is about (1/20)3.
Continuing this all the way through a sequence of Na amino acids
in a protein, the chance f1 of correctly picking (at random) all
the necessary amino acids to create one particular protein is
roughly equal to (1/20) raised to the power Na. This corresponds to
f1 = (1/10)x where x = 1.3Na. Actually, to the extent that some
amino acids may be replaced by others without affecting the
functionality of the protein, the above expression for f1 is a
lower limit. (We will allow for this later in this section.)
Yockey (p. 73) shows that instead of 20N for the value of 1/f1, a
more accurate estimate is 2NH where H is the mean value of a
quantity known as the Shannon entropy of the 20-acid set (see
below). In the limit where all amino acids have equal probability
of being encoded, and are equally probable at all sites in the
protein, 2NH turns out (from the definition of H) to be equal to
20N . In all other cases, 2NH is less than 20N. This returns us to
the previous conclusion: the above expression for f1 is a lower
limit on the true value.
Suppose that the particular protein with probability f1 has been
formed in a particular patch of the primeval soup. Then in order
to form a single cell (with at least 12 proteins as a bare minimum
to function), eleven more proteins must also be formed in the same
patch of soup, in close enough proximity to one another to be
contained within a single membrane. Each of these proteins also
has a certain number of amino acids: for simplicity let us assume
that all have length Na.
The overall probability f12 that all twelve proteins arise as a
result of random processes is the product of the probability for
the twelve separate proteins. That is, f12 is roughly equal to f1
12,
i.e. f12 is roughly (1/10)y where y = 15.6Na.
We can now quantify the claim that the first cell was assembled by
random processes. If the first cell consisted of only the bare
minimum 12 proteins, and if each of these proteins was uniquely
suited to its own task, the probability that these particular 12
proteins will be formed by random processes in a given patch of
primeval soup is f12.
Now let us turn to the fact that a protein may remain functional
even if a certain amino acid is replaced with another one.
(Obviously, we are not referring to invariant sites here.) For
example, it may be that the protein which we have specified as the
one that is responsible for (say) energy generation in the cell is
21
not unique. There may exist other groupings of amino acids which
also have the shape and properties that enable the task of energy
production for the cell. Maybe the others are not as efficient as
the first one, but let us suppose that they have enough efficiency
to be considered as possible candidates for energy production in
the first cell. Then we need to ask: how many energy-producing
proteins might there be in the primeval soup?
It is difficult to tell: in principle, if Na has the value 14
(say), then one could examine the molecular structure of all 14-
amino acid proteins (of which there are some 2014 , i.e. 1018.2 if
all amino acids are equally probable) and identify which ones
would be suitable for performing the energy task. Presumably there
must be some specificity to the task of energy production:
otherwise, a protein which is supposed to perform the task of
(say) waste removal might suddenly start to perform the task of
(say) membrane production in the wrong part of the cell.
Therefore, it is essential for stable life-forms that not all
available proteins can perform all of the individual tasks.
Suppose the number of alternate energy-producers Q is written as
10q. In a world where all proteins have Na = 14, the absolute
maximum value that q can have is qmax = 18.2. This is the total
number of discrete locations in the “14-amino acid phase space”.
In the real world, a more realistic estimate of qmax would be
smaller than the above estimate. First, not all amino acids have
equal probability of being encoded: there are more codons in the
modern genetic code for some amino acids than for others. (E.g.,
Leu, Val, and Ser have 6 codons each, whereas 10 others have only
2 codons each.) When these are allowed for in the probability
distribution, it is found that the “effective number” of amino
acids in the modern world is not 20 but 17.621 (Yockey, p. 258).
Thus, with Na = 14, a more accurate estimate of qmax(eff) is 17.4
(rather than 18.2).
As a result, in the real world, qmax(eff) may be considerably
smaller than 18.2. However, in the spirit of optimizing
probabilities, let us continue to use the value 18.2.
The requirement that some specificity of task persists among
proteins requires that the value of q must certainly not exceed
qmax. At the other extreme, in a situation where each protein is
uniquely specified, q would have the value qmin = 0 (so that one
and only one protein could perform the task of energy production).
22
Now we can see that our estimate of f12 needs to be altered. We
were too pessimistic in estimating f12 above. Each factor f1 needs
to be multiplied by 10q. For simplicity, let us assume that q has
the same value for each of the 12 proteins in the cell. Then the
revised value of f12 is 1/10z where
z = 15.6Na - 12q . (eq. 1)
This result applies to a cell with 12 proteins, each composed of
amino acids chosen from a set of 20 distinct entries.
10. Random formation of DNA/RNA

The first cell could NOT have functioned if it consisted only of
proteins. In order to merit the description living, the cell must
also have had the ability to reproduce. That is, it must also have
had the correct DNA to allow all 12 proteins to be reproduced by
the cell.
In order to estimate the probability of assembling a piece of DNA
by random processes, we can follow the same argument as for
proteins, except that now we must pick from the available set of 4
bases.
Repeating the arguments given above, we see that for each protein
which contains Na amino acids in a certain sequence (plus one start
and one stop), there must exist in the DNA a strip of B = 3Na+6
bases in a corresponding sequence. If we pick bases at random from
a set of 4 possibilities, the probability of selecting the correct
sequence for a particular protein is (1/4)B. Therefore, the
probability of selecting the correct sequences for all twelve
proteins, if each protein is unique, is (1/4)D where D = 36Na + 72.
Writing this with the symbol fRNA, we see that fRNA is equal to
(1/10)E where
E = 21.7Na + 43.3. (eq. 2)
Again, however, if instead of unique proteins for each task, there
are 10q proteins available to perform each task in the cell, then
we must increase the above value of fRNA to 10-G where
G = 21.7Na + 43.3 - 12q.
for full article http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf

and here folks you are asked to forgo the battalions of functions that go into making or a primitive cell to making it a functional cell, as it so happens it isn't a matter of throwing some randoms proteins together and as if by magic they animate, take shape and function, carrying that thought equally to every specie (giving you a pair of each for proper perpetuation of that specie) none which stopped at primeval goo, no kept on naturally over centuries, as well a perfect environment to house it all, fruits, nuts, trees, minerals, oxygen all perfectly simpatico at the same time, but what warrants your attention here, isn't all of this, no, it is that there are rare enzyme disorders or aborted hydatidiform moles

what genius indeed draws satisfaction out of overly simplistic conclusions save for the atheist mind?
God is indeed in the details, would any of you like to take a stab at the details?

anyone without kitschy talk and fallacies?
Reply

Converse02
05-26-2009, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
how is having a hydatidiform mole exactly proof of God's nonexistence?
You can't disprove God or invisible magical elves. I'm just showing that, for an allegely perfect being, he's a poor designer.


The fact that they are extremely rare and an aberrancy that aborts before term
Not all of them abort. Some turn into cancer and kill the mom. Some God, some design. Naturalistic evolution explains it better.


Also, take in vitro fertilization. Do you believe we can now make God ensoul embryos, and have turn God into our puppet? Of course out, naturalistic evolution again explains this whereas God-belief cannot.
Reply

جوري
05-26-2009, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
From Wikipedia:
Criticism has been made both of Bucaille's book in particular and Bucailleism in general. Theoretical physicist Parvez Hoodbhoy of Pakistan identifies the problem with such claims to ownership is that they lack an explanation for why quantum mechanics, molecular genetics, etc., had to await discovery elsewhere. Nor is any kind of testable prediction ever made. No reason is offered as to why antibiotics, aspirin, steam engines, electricity, aircraft, or computers were not first invented by Muslims. But even to ask such questions is considered offensive.
what nonsense Vishnu? as far as I am concerned antibiotics and the rest didn't come courtesy of a Hindu either or are you too good to be true? aside from that a little google to your same favorite site, might in fact show you what Muslims contributed to the field of physics alone..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_physics



you are only offensive because you choose to be, not because you have anything of substance to impart on the matter!

all the best
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جوري
05-26-2009, 06:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
You can't disprove God. I'm just showing that, for an allegely perfect being, he's a poor designer.
what is your idea of 'perfection' where is your baseline?


Not all of them abort. Some turn into cancer and kill the mom. Some God you worship, some design. A more likely explanation, that makes more sense, is to accept naturalistic evolution
a very negligible percentage turns to cancer, and can actually be remedied early by following serum HCG and vigilant action .. the one who created us also gave us the science to deal with whatever tribulations come our way.. this isn't heaven!

Also, take in vitro fertilization. Do you believe we can now make God ensoul embryos, and have turn God into our puppet? Of course out, naturalistic evolution again explains this whereas God-belief cannot.
How so, do tell, as that is indeed news to me!
How is taking cells already in existence playing God?

all the best
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