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ninetrey
12-10-2008, 11:18 PM
esselamu aleikum ve rametulah

id like to know how you real muslims think about homosexuals!!
so the bible says kill em what i agree with!and the quran says
leave em alone if they show remorse!i also heard of a hadith
of muhammad(allah ilahu alaii wa salam) that he used to hate em
and used to kill em too!so can someone please find some hadith
about those evil mushrik fa+ggots please inschalah?


slam
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Fishman
12-10-2008, 11:32 PM
:sl:
This is not hadith, this is my opinion, based on what I heard from somebody who probably based their own opinion on Hadith.
On one hand-
A homosexual who does not actually engage in homosexual acts is doing no wrong. They can't help being gay, its a mental disorder that is not their choice. The idea that all homosexuals must die is wrong, it is a Nazi idea based more on stupid things like 'genetic purity' than wanting to preserve good moral standards. Killing all homosexuals is no better than punishing all deaf people on the grounds of them not listening to the Quran.

On the other-
People who do commit homosexual acts are completely messed up, it is disgusting. They are simply following animalistic desires and have no shame. Sex is an identity to them, a sense of pride. And they make it worse for themselves when they claim that being gay was their choice.
:w:
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Whatsthepoint
12-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
And they make it worse for themselves when they claim that being gay was their choice.
:w:
Most gays say the opposite.
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Abu Ilyas
12-11-2008, 05:43 PM
The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).


Some of them thought that they should be stoned to death, which was narrated from both ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them).


After the Sahaabah, the fuqaha’ differed concerning the matter. Some of them said that the homosexual should be executed no matter what his situation, whether he is married or not.
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Whatsthepoint
12-11-2008, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad*
The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).
Why does Iran hang them then?
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- Qatada -
12-11-2008, 05:51 PM
:salamext:


this might be of some help insha Allah;

http://gaymuslims.wordpress.com


its muslims who know its a sin, but advice for them.
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Leyla73
12-11-2008, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
This is not hadith, this is my opinion, based on what I heard from somebody who probably based their own opinion on Hadith.
On one hand-
A homosexual who does not actually engage in homosexual acts is doing no wrong. They can't help being gay, its a mental disorder that is not their choice. The idea that all homosexuals must die is wrong, it is a Nazi idea based more on stupid things like 'genetic purity' than wanting to preserve good moral standards. Killing all homosexuals is no better than punishing all deaf people on the grounds of them not listening to the Quran.

On the other-
People who do commit homosexual acts are completely messed up, it is disgusting. They are simply following animalistic desires and have no shame. Sex is an identity to them, a sense of pride. And they make it worse for themselves when they claim that being gay was their choice.
:w:
I think i agree more with you:)
Reply

dryheat360
12-12-2008, 12:52 AM
Alahu alam but from my understanding whoever said homosexual people should be burned is incorrect because only Allah can punish with fire. Also, i dont think punishment is death, its just haram. Those are cultural rules alahu alam that punish homosexuals.
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north_malaysian
12-12-2008, 02:00 AM
Homosexuality in Muslim countries

Afghanistan
The Penal Code of 1976 was reinstated after the American invasion, and its article 427 prescribes long prison terms for adultery and pederasty. However, Article 427 of the Penal Code does contain sections that likely punish homosexualitywith fines and long prison sentences


Albania
On January 20, 1995 the Albanian Parliament legalized homosexual relations in Albania.


Algeria
According to Article 388 of the penal code from 1996, sodomy may be punished with imprisonment from two months to 2 years and a fine of 10,000 Algerian dinars.


Azerbaijan
2000 saw the abolishment of the Azerbaijani law forbidding homosexual interactions (gay sex).


Bahrain
Homosexuality has been considered illegal in Bahrain since 1956 when, as part of the British Empire, it was given the Indian Penal Code. Article 377 of this code made "unnatural sexual behaviour" a crime punishable with imprisonment not to exceed ten years, or deportation for twenty years of a fine.


Bangladesh
According to Article 377 private, adult homosexual sex acts are illegal and will be punished with deportation, fines and/or up to 10 years, sometimes life imprisonment


Bosnia and Herzegovina
Homosexual sex was decriminalized in Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina (FBiH) in 1998 and in the Republika Srpska (RS) in 2000, by those two entities adopting their own criminal laws. The age of consent is 14, regardless of sexual orientation (having sexual relations with a person under 14 is considered statutory rape.).


Brunei Darussalam
Homosexuality is illegal in Brunei and can be punished with up to 10 years imprisonment or a fine of 30,000 Brunei dollars


Burkina Faso
Article 411 prohibits any sexual act which is deemed to be unnatural or against the public morals. Articles 412-415 stipulate the punishment of acts against the public "sense of shame" of under-aged persons to be a prison sentence of between 2 months and 10 years.


Chad
There is no sodomy law in Chad. Homosexual acts are legal in Chad according to the Penal Code of 1967. Article 272 sets the age of consent for homosexual acts of both sexes to 21 years.


Comoros
Homosexual sex is illegal in Comoros according to article 318 of the Penal Code. Such acts are punished with up to five years imprisonment and a fine of 50 000 to 1 000 000 francs.


Djibouti
The laws regarding homosexuality in Djibouti are vague and can sometimes be confusing, but it is generally understood that homosexuality is de facto illegal.


Egypt
Homosexuality is not de jure illegal in Egypt. However, in the early part of the twenty-first century, homosexuality started to become de facto illegal under a wide scope of interpreting various articles of the Egyptian Penal Code and other regulations of Egyptian Public Policy related to the safeguard of "Public Order & Public Morals". Such practices were an evolution of the controversial practice used by Egyptian Security to quell youth rebellion and "lewd" expression of individuality in the mid nineties under the banner of Satanism, official charges ranged from "offenses against public morals and sensitivities" to "violating the teachings of religion and propagating depraved ideas and moral depravity."


Gambia
According to the criminal code from 1965, § 15, Offences against Morality Act, Article 144: homosexuality is an "unnatural offence" and is illegal.According to Article 145 a prison sentence for perpetrators can be for up to 7 years. Article 146 states those who commit "unnatural acts" with anyone under the age of 14 years can also be imprisoned for up to 7 years. Article 147 states homosexual acts, even in privacy are considered acts of gross indecency and can be punished with imprisonment for up to 5 years.


Guinea
Article 325 prohibits same-sex acts with a maximum penalty of 3 years imprisonment and a fine of up to 1 million Guinea francs.


Indonesia
Homosexuality is a not a crime when it occurs in private and between consenting adults.


Iran
Sodomy is a crime for which both partners can be punished by death. If the participants are adults, of sound mind and consenting; the method of execution is for the Shari'a judge to decide. A non-adult who engages in consensual sodomy is subject to a punishment of 74 lashes. (Articles 108 to 113) Sodomy is proved either if a person confesses four times to having committed sodomy or by the testimony of four righteous men. Testimony of women alone or together with a man does not prove sodomy. (Articles 114 to 119). "If sodomy, or the lesser crimes referred to above, are proved by confession, and the person concerned repents, the Shari'a judge may request that he be pardoned. If a person who has committed the lesser crimes referred to above repents before the giving of testimony by the witnesses, the punishment is quashed. (Articles 125 and 126).


Iraq
Homosexuality was legal in Iraq under Saddam Hussein until late 2001, when under pressure from religious conservatives he criminalised the act of sodomy. A law passed in 2001 made sodomy punishable by imprisonment, and repeated convictions punishable by death.

The legal status of homosexuality remains something in dispute in a post-Saddam Iraq. Homosexuality is not de jure illegal in Iraq, but it is taboo.


Jordan
Private, adult and consensual sodomy was decriminalized by the Penal Code of 1951[2]. The age of consent is 16.


Kazakhstan
Kazakhstan has no sodomy laws, the age of sexual consent is 18 for all.


Kosova
Male homosexuality became legal in Kosovo in 1970. Since 1 January 1991[citation needed], Kosovo has an equal age of consent of 14 regardless of sexual orientation and/or gender and all sexual offences became gender-neutral.


Kuwait
Article 193 of the Penal Code punishes homosexuality between men, over the age of 21, with up to seven years imprisonment


Lebanon
Article 534 of the Lebanese Penal Code prohibits having sexual relations that are "contradicting the laws of nature," which is punishable by up to a year in prison. This prohibits male homosexuality, along with adultery, sodomy and fornication, while for females, lesbian sexual activities are not illegal, because they do not involve penetration.


Libya
Homosexuality is illegal and can be punished according to article 407/4 with up to 5 years imprisonment, or 10 years when committed in an act of violence. Libya has also been known to execute gays and lesbians under Islamic Sharia Law.


Malaysia
Section 377 of the penal code prohibits heterosexual and homosexual sodomy with punishments including up to twenty years in prison and or fines and whippings. Section 337a more narrowly prohibits acts of "gross indecency with another male person" with punishment including up to two years in prison.


Mali
There are no laws against homosexuality. Homosexual behaviour is not mentioned as a criminal offence in the penal code. Gay sexual activity is hence legal. However in a case in 1999 two lesbians where punished under the guise of violating Public Morals. There exist only Public Indecency in Sexual Offence article. (Three months to two years in prison and a fine )


Mauritania
The Shari'a law applies in Mauritania. According to the penal code from 1983, part II chapter 1, section 4, Article 308 states any adult Muslim caught engaging in an "unnatural act" with a member of the same sex is punishable with the death sentence by public stoning


Morocco
Article 489 of the Penal Code of Morocco criminalizes “lewd or unnatural acts with an individual of the same sex.”Homosexuality is illegal in Morocco and can be punished with anything from 6 months to 3 years imprisonment and a fine of 120 to 1200 Dirhams


Niger
Homosexuality is not forbidden in Niger but a punishment is possible should you "offend the public moral" according to Articles 275-279 or engage in sexual intercourse with minors under the age of consent, which is set at 21 years of age (Article 282). An imprisonment of 6 months to 3 years and a fine of between 10,000 and 100,000 CFA-franc is possible for offenders.


Nigeria
Homosexuality in Nigeria is illegal according to Chapter 21, Articles 214 and 217 of the Nigerian penal code and can be punished by imprisonment of up to 14 years. The north of Nigeria is Islamic and extremely conservative. According to the Shari'a law, which applies here, anal intercourse (Liwat) is punished with 100 lashes (for unmarried men) and one years imprisonment and death by stoning for married men.


Oman
Homosexuality in the Sultanate of Oman is illegal according to § 32 of the penal code and can be punished with a jail sentence of up to 3 years.


Pakistan
Article 377 - Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal, shall be punished with imprisonment for life, or with imprisonment of either description for a term which shall not be less than two years nor more than ten years, and shall also be liable to fine. Penetration is sufficient to constitute the carnal intercourse necessary to the offence described in this section.


Palestine
Homosexuality is technically illegal under the sodomy prohibition originally enacted under the British Mandate


Qatar
Article 201 of the 1971 Penal Code punishes sodomy between consenting adults (irrespective of sex) with up to five years imprisonment.


Saudi Arabia
In 1928, the Saudi judicial board advised Muslim judges to look for guidance in two books by the Hanbalite jurist Mar'I ibn Yusuf al-Karmi al Maqdisi (d.1033/1624). Liwat (sodomy) is to be "treated like fornication, and must be punished in the same way. If muhsan (married, or within a legal concubinage) and free, one must be stoned to death, while a free bachelor must be whipped 100 lashes and banished for a year." Sodomy is thus proven either by the perpetrator confessing four times or by the testimony of four trustworthy Muslim men. If there are less than four witnesses, or one of them is not upright, they are all to be chastised with 80 lashes for slander.


Senegal
Homosexual activity is illegal in Senegal. Article 319, paragraph 3 of the Senegal Penal Code, in the edition of the law of n° 66-16 of 12 February 1966 bans homosexual conduct.


Somalia
In the previous penal code; Article 409 prohibited homosexual acts. Punishment can be up to 3 years imprisonment.


Sudan
Homosexuality is illegal in Sudan. The judicial system is based on the Shari'a and according to Article 148, capital punishment applies should the offense be repeated for the fourth time for women, and the first for men.[1] Before this 100 lashes apply to unmarried women who engage in homosexual acts.[2]
For homosexual men, the death penalty is used on the first act.
For lesbian women, the first three acts of homosexuality are punished with 100 lashes, and on the fourth offense, death.


Syria
Article 520 of the penal code of 1949, prohibits having homosexual relations, i.e. "carnal knowledge against the order of nature", and provides for a possible three-years imprisonment. However, the law is de-facto suspended.


Tajikistan
There are no laws against homosexuality in Tajikistan


Tunisia
Article 230 of the Penal Code of 1913 (largely modified in 1964) decrees imprisonment of up to three years for sodomy between consenting adults.


Turkey
Gay sexual conduct between consenting adults in private is not a crime in Turkey. The age of consent for both heterosexual and homosexual sex is 18.


Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus
in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus male homosexual conduct only (not lesbianism) is still illegal and yet to have the law repealed by a new Criminal Code


Turkmenistan
Male homosexuality is illegal in Turkmenistan. Punishment ranges from a fine to 2 years in prison.

Penal Code 1997/98 (revised 2000)
  • § 135
“(1) Muzhelozhstvo, that is the sexual relations of the man with the man, is punished by imprisonment for the term of up to two years with the placing of the responsibility of stay in the specific locality for the period from two to five years or without the same.”


United Arab Emirates (Abu Dhabi)
Article 80 of the Abu Dhabi Penal Code makes sodomy punishable with imprisonment of up to 14 years.


United Arab Emirates (Dubai)
Article 177 of the Penal Code of Dubai imposes imprisonment of up to 10 years on consensual sodomy.


Uzbekistan
Male homosexuality is illegal in Uzbekistan. Punishment ranges from a fine to 3 years in prison.

Penal Code 1994/95 (revised 2001)
  • § 120
“Besoqolbozlik, that is, voluntary sexual intercourse of two male individuals - shall be punished with imprisonment up to three years.”


Yemen
Homosexuality is illegal in Yemen in according to the country's Shari'ah legal system. Punishment ranges from flogging to death. Yemen is one of only seven countries to apply a death penalty for consensual sexual acts between adults of the same sex.

taken from wikipedia
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BlackMamba
12-12-2008, 02:29 AM
Does anyone know what the punsihment is for the gays according to shariah. It seems that everytime someone answers it it's either an opinion or people start disputing it. This is a pretty common question and I don't know how to answer when asked. I've heard the throwing off a building one many times, then today I heard the fire one, and today I learned that Saudi treats it like fornication(100 lashes). So does anybody have a straight up answer with proof?
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alcurad
12-12-2008, 04:05 AM
there is no punishment proscribed for homosexuals either in the qur'an or the sunnah. no cases occurred at his time for the prophet to issue a ruling.
as for the story of the people of prophet Lot, the punishment mentioned is Allah's decree on a people as a whole, including women, and sodomy was onlt one of the acts mentioned. so all the rulings being invented since after the prophet's death till now are simply reflecting norms and culture, not Islam.
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north_malaysian
12-12-2008, 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by alcurad
there is no punishment proscribed for homosexuals either in the qur'an or the sunnah. no cases occurred at his time for the prophet to issue a ruling.
as for the story of the people of prophet Lot, the punishment mentioned is Allah's decree on a people as a whole, including women, and sodomy was onlt one of the acts mentioned. so all the rulings being invented since after the prophet's death till now are simply reflecting norms and culture, not Islam.
Is it true that God decided to punish the people of Sodom, not because of their homosexuality... but because they forcing Prophet Lot to handover the angels... for them to have fun?
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Amadeus85
12-12-2008, 10:48 AM
I think that the problem of homosexuality is solved well in majority of muslim countries with the excpetion of Iran and Afghanistan etc.
I mean, ban these acts, but not kill the people.
Like it was in most parts of Europe just 50 years ago.
It shows how our sexual european morality changed in last years. Into bad, im sure.
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Snowflake
12-12-2008, 11:41 AM
Name of Questioner
Sayyed

Title
Threats to Behead Homosexuals: Shari`ah or Politics?

Question
Respected scholars, as-salamu `alaykum.

Recently, we heard from the news that Gambian president Yahya Jammeh threatened to behead homosexuals, and two persons were arrested and are being held for trial. What is the Shari`ah stance on this?

Jazakum Allahu khayran.

Date
09/Jun/2008

Name of Mufti
Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti

Topic
Disciplinary Penalties (ta`zir), Sexual perversity


***




Wa`alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.






Brother, thank you for your question and concern to know the rules of Islam. May Almighty Allah enlighten our hearts and minds with His guidance.

The issue you raised in your question is a thorny one. For sure, homosexuality and lesbianism are heinous crimes against humanity that deserve a deterrent punishment. Muslim scholars have various views regarding the punishment of this abhorrent crime. It is high time for juristic counsels in the Muslim World to tackle this issue to reach an agreed-upon law that does suit our complicated contemporary life and situations.

Responding to your question, Sheikh Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti, director of the Islamic Center of South Plains, Lubbock, Texas, US, stated,


I agree with president Jammeh that homosexuality is a grievous sin that a Muslim must find repugnant, and that its perpetrators do not deserve to be respected or accepted in the Muslim society. This sin represents retrogression in the sound and natural human disposition and destruction to the structure of family, which is the original unit in society.

The relation between this sin and HIV/AIDS, which has killed millions of people and has caused suffering for many other millions, indicates that those promoting this sin are in fact committing a crime against humanity. This also shows that their loud protest against Jammeh's remarks is a mere hypocrisy.

However, the Gambian president, like any other president, is neither judge nor jurist, and does not have the right to prescribe a legal punishment. Punishments in the Shari`ah are not for political disputes, but they are part of a judicial system, which is maintained by an impartial independent courts. Because the Gambian president is not a jurist, and it is not expected from a man of political and military background like him to be a jurist, he does not know that his threat to behead homosexuals is based on a very weak basis in the Shari`ah.

The juristic view on which president Jammeh threatened to behead homosexuals has no basis in the glorious Qur'an or the authentic Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). This will be explained as follows:

a) No legal punishment is stated in the Qur'an for homosexuality; all what is stated in this concern is the condemnation of committing it in the context of the story of Prophet Lot and the divine punishment his people received for committing such a hideous sin.

b)It is not reported that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) has punished somebody for committing homosexuality, a fact that Ibn Al-Qayyim has explained by saying that "this (sin) was not known among Arabs" during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

c) There is no authentic hadith reported from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) prescribing a punishment for the homosexuals. However, the Qur'anic description of homosexuality as a fahishah (Arabic for: abomination), which is the same description of zina (Arabic for: adultery or fornication), hints that both sins entail inflicting the same legal punishment.

d) Scholars of Islamic schools of jurisprudence have different views on the punishment to be inflicted for committing this sin: Some say that the punishment is the killing of the perpetrator, others say that it is the same as in the case of zina, and a third party are of the opinion that the judge may afflict a lower discretionary punishment, such as imprisonment.

However, punishing the homosexuals by stoning them to death is supported through only two weak hadiths, on which the scholars who adopt the views of stoning and killing build their opinions.

The first hadith is narrated on the authority of `Abdullah ibn `Abbas that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "If you find anybody committing the act of the People of Lot (i.e. sodomy), then kill the one doing it and the one with whom it is done."This hadith is recorded by Imam Ahmad, Imam Abu Dawud, and Imam At-Tirmidhi among others. However, Al-Bukhari, Yahya ibn Ma`in, An-Nasa'i, and Ibn Hazm impugned the authenticity of this hadith.

The second hadith is narrated on the authority of Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said about the one committing sodomy, "Stone the upper and the lower (i.e. both persons committing it)."This hadith is recorded by Ibn Majah, Abu Ya`la, and Al-Hakim; however, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Hazm, among others, impugned the authenticity of this hadith. In his book Ahkam Al-Qur'an, judge Abu Bakr Al-Jassas commented on this hadith stating that the narrations of two of the narrators of this hadith "are not reliable by any means, and no legal punishment can be prescribed based on them (i.e. on their narrations)."

There are some similar traditions in this concern, among which a hadith narrated by Jabir ibn `Abdullah that reads "kill whoever commits the act of the people of Lot,"and another narration in which `Ali ibn Abu Talib adopted the opinion of stoning the sodomite. However, these traditions are even weaker than the ones discussed above, according to the scholars of Hadith.

Al-Hafiz ibn Hajar summarized the whole issue in the chapter of hudud (Arabic for: punishments prescribed by Islamic Shari`ah) in his book Fath Al-Bari, saying, "The narration reported on killing the one doing it and the one with whom it is done or stoning them is weak."

In fact, no scholar of the science Hadith deemed authentic the aforementioned two hadiths except Ibn Habban among the early scholars and Al-Albani among the contemporary ones. Ibn Habban deemed the hadith of Ibn `Abbas authentic, while Al-Albani deemed Abu Hurairah's hadith authentic. However, it is known among the scholars of Hadith that Ibn Habban's views are unreliable if not substantiated by other scholars of Hadith in deeming hadiths authentic. In addition, Al-Albani's opinion cannot stand against the doubts Al-Bukhari, Ibn Ma`in, Ibn Hajar, and other prominent scholars of Hadith raised as to the reliability of the narrators if these hadiths.

In brief, if these hadiths were not weak, no disagreement was to be among scholars on the punishment of sodomy since the time of the Prophet's Companions till now.

I would like to conclude this discussion by stating some important points on the historical context we are experiencing now.

First, it should be stated that sodomy (or homosexuality) is a wicked and grievous sin and a crime against society, but beheading or stoning those committing it are punishments that have no foundation in the Qur'an or the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). All what can be said is that sodomy is a fahishah, the same way the Qur'an described zina, so it has the same legal punishment — the lashing of the perpetrator one hundred times in a public place as stated in Surat An-Nur, or imprisoning and punishing him as stated in Surat of An-Nisa'.

Second, all the juristic views stating that the homosexuals are to be killed, burnt, or thrown from a high place, have no sound legal foundation, though they show how much the early Muslim society was disgusted with such a wicked, immoral practice. However, legal judgments are based on divine revelation not on the tendencies of societies.

Third, it should be stated that Islam is a religion of mercy, and the society has the duty of giving the guilty an opportunity to repent and correct his or her way. In the crime of murder, which is the most heinous crime, Islam opens the door to forgiveness and paying blood money before afflicting the qisas (Arabic for: retribution). Thus, jumping directly to the punishment indicates that the societal system has failed, and that there is a disorder in the educational thinking in the society.

Fourth, reviewing the Islamic criminal jurisprudence has become a must, because some of the punishments commonly stated in the books of jurisprudence are based on weak traditions, such as stoning the adulterer and killing the apostate. Without a serious review of these punishments, we would always find some enthusiastic persons who hurt the image of Islam using weak juristic views, though intending the good for Islam.

Fifth, independenceof judiciary has become an urgent matter that should not be delayed. This is because legal punishments are the work of independent, impartial legitimate judiciary; politicians have nothing to do with such punishments.

Sixth, legal punishments need to be codified through constitutional texts and laws approved by parliaments. This also should be based on legal foundation, scholarly study, and a scrutinizing review of the rich jurisprudential Islamic heritage. By doing this, we will save Islam from the political and legal chaos it is experiencing now.

In conclusion, Gambian president Jammeh deserves respect for his enthusiasm for Islam and virtue in his society. However, before iterating his threats, he needs to wait and make sure of the legal foundation of them; otherwise, his enthusiasm may prove counterproductive, as happened with others, and, thus, harm the Muslim societies, defame the Islamic message, and contradict the Islamic concepts of justice and punishments.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar
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north_malaysian
12-12-2008, 12:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken, according to Hanafi jurists, sodomy/homosexuality is considered as ta'zir and the punishments for ta'zir must never be heavier than any punishments prescribed for hudood or qisas...

maybe can someone further elaborate on this?
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north_malaysian
12-12-2008, 12:30 PM
I think the homosexual status in the Muslim nations can be categorized into 4 categories:

Death Penalty
1. Iran
2. Iraq
3. Nigeria
4. Saudi Arabia
5. Sudan
6. Yemen

Imprisonment
1. Bahrain
2. Burkina Faso
3. Gambia
4. Kuwait
5. Lebanon
6. Libya
7. Maldives
8. Oman
9. Pakistan
10. Qatar
11. Somalia
12. Syria
13. Tunisia
14. United Arab Emirates
15. Uzbekistan

Fine (minimum) to Imprisonment (max)
1. Afghanistan
2. Algeria
3. Bangladesh
4. Brunei Darussalam
5. Comoros
6. Guinea
7. Malaysia
8. Morocco
9. Turkmenistan

Homosexuality Legalized
1. Albania
2. Azerbaijan
3. Bosnia and Herzegovina
4. Chad
5. Indonesia
6. Jordan
7. Kazakhstan
8. Kosova
9. Mali
10. Niger
11. Tajikistan
12. Turkey

P/S: Homosexuality is legalized in 12 Muslim majority nations... whoa ... I dont know that...:exhausted
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Argamemnon
12-12-2008, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by ninetrey
so the bible says kill em what i agree with!
You can't act as you desire and decide to kill people going against the Quran. I would repent if I were you.
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czgibson
12-12-2008, 03:18 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Muhammad*
The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).


Some of them thought that they should be stoned to death, which was narrated from both ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them).
I find this kind of thing really upsetting. Does Allah really hate homosexuality more than violence?

Killing people for religious reasons ought to be seen as morally unjustifiable. If everyone on the planet could see it this way, I think the world would be a much happier place.

Peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by mohsen1985
From what I've heard (from somewhat reliable sources) the punishment for homosexuals is to be thrown off of the highest point of the city. The rule is you only get 1 push, if the person tries and hangs on and doesn't fall off the cliff, then he lives.

I've actually seen a short clip where they push a homosexual off a cliff and he hangs on...
An off-topic q:
Is it true that you bury women that are to be stoned up to the neck and men up to the waist?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I think that the problem of homosexuality is solved well in majority of muslim countries with the excpetion of Iran and Afghanistan etc.
I mean, ban these acts, but not kill the people.
Like it was in most parts of Europe just 50 years ago.
It shows how our sexual european morality changed in last years. Into bad, im sure.
I personally consider it a great progress, emancipation of homosexuals and other sexual minorities is one of the most important achievements of recent social developments in the western world.
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Amadeus85
12-12-2008, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I personally consider it a great progress, emancipation of homosexuals and other sexual minorities is one of the most important achievements of recent social developments in the western world.
In my opinion the society in Europe is now in much worse state than lets say 50 years ago. The amount of divorces, kids being raised by single parents, children born out of marriage, broken families, total apathy in the society. Treating relationship of two men as "normal relationship" goes well with all these "advances" of our societies.
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Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Well i guess not much can be said about lewd people, especially considering their president's own daughter is a lesbo....

Today homos can go have a gay party, tomorrow incest will be legal (not that it's not happening already in europe), society reflects the beliefs of it's people and the people are getting more and more lewd and disgusting while others approve all this in the name of "progress and emancipation"
I believe you are refering to the vice president's daughter, Mary Cheney.
Perhaps incest will be legal someday, though it is not as morally unambiguous as homosexuality is, as it can result in genetic deficiencies in offspring.
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Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
In my opinion the society in Europe is now in much worse state than lets say 50 years ago. The amount of divorces, kids being raised by single parents, children born out of marriage, broken families, total apathy in the society. Treating relationship of two men as "normal relationship" goes well with all these "advances" of our societies.
LGBT rights have nothing to do with divorce stats or singe parent families.
And why complain about not enough people getting married and in the same breath ban two others from marrying.
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Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 07:15 PM
prop 8 - the musical
Quite funny and makes some good points.
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mohsen1985
12-12-2008, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
An off-topic q:
Is it true that you bury women that are to be stoned up to the neck and men up to the waist?
Nah, I just hang them:thumbs_up Seriously, those are not true...
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Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by mohsen1985
Nah, I just hang them:thumbs_up Seriously, those are not true...
Not homosexuals, adulterers for instance, anyone convicted to stoning.
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Muezzin
12-12-2008, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No it's not.
I'll be the judge of that.

Time for a little cleanup... Man, we need a janitor.
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Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I'll be the judge of that.

Time for a little cleanup... Man, we need a janitor.
Leave it as it is. Deleting posts ruins the thread.
Polygamy has a place in homosexual-related threads as much as much as it does in UK-sharia-courts-related threads.
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Muezzin
12-12-2008, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Leave it as it is. Deleting posts ruins the thread.
Oops. Perhaps members should stay on topic in that case.

Polygamy has a place in homosexual-related threads as much as much as it does in UK-sharia-courts-related threads.
Not really.

Like I said, this thread is on shaky ground to begin with. I've probably extended its life before lock by a few hours.

Enjoy the discussion.

Edit: Also, certain members have been insulting others for having an opposing point of view. Continue and you will receive warnings for Beef.
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Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 08:07 PM
Anyway, killing homosexuals, as well as their imprisonment, is barbaric and has no place in a civilized society.
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brotherinfaith
12-12-2008, 08:13 PM
who decides if the society is civilised or not ?
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Whatsthepoint
12-12-2008, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by brotherinfaith
who decides if the society is civilised or not ?
It's a subjective evaluation for the most part.
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Fishman
12-12-2008, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by brotherinfaith
who decides if the society is civilised or not ?
:sl:
These days, most people regard society as a bad move.
:w:
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islamirama
12-12-2008, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Anyway, killing homosexuals, as well as their imprisonment, is barbaric and has no place in a civilized society.
What civilized society?

the one that wages illegal wars and commits holocausts after holocausts?
or
the one that that teaches its kids to start fornicating soon as they hit puberty?
or
the one that whose priests like fondling little boys and girls?
or
the one where pornography is as common as popcorn?
or
the one where society is addicted to sex?

Any society that allows such immoral, indecent, and unnatural acts is a barbaric, uncivilized and backward society.
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Fishman
12-12-2008, 08:50 PM
the one that wages illegal wars and commits holocausts after holocausts?
Rwanda is a western society? Sudan is a western society? Serbia is a western society? Truth is, all societies start illegal wars and commit genocides if conditions are right. I bet even the Bahais or the Armenians and all the other little, peaceful communities would go around bombing and conquering if they were strong enough to.

the one that that teaches its kids to start fornicating soon as they hit puberty?
Yes, I agree, but this is not just done in the west. It is probably a mark of 'modernisation' in general, rather than westernisation. But since the west is the most 'modernised' society technologically and economically, it is hard to tell.

the one that whose priests like fondling little boys and girls?
There are many cases of Imams and teachers in Madrassas doing these things too. They just aren't as well-reported. I get a feeling that some Hindu and Sikh temples probably have these goings on in them as well. If there is not enough done to protect children then any weirdo can do as they please, regardless of the intent of the actual institution.

the one where pornography is as common as popcorn?
Most people in the west hate porno and think it is disgusting. What is actually defined as porn, however, is a bit dodgy, probably due to so-called 'modernisation'.

the one where society is addicted to sex?
Yeah, I agree with this as well. But again, it could happen anywhere, not just the west. You could even accuse Shakespeare of this, though what he thought was a dirty joke is nothing compared to today's comedy.

Any society that allows such immoral, indecent, and unnatural acts is a barbaric, uncivilized and backward society.
I wouldn't say 'uncivilised'. There is a big difference between an ancient German worrior and today's people, wouldn't you say?
:w:
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Tony
12-12-2008, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Anyway, killing homosexuals, as well as their imprisonment, is barbaric and has no place in a civilized society.
Got to admit I am with you on this subject, whatever a person chooses to do with their body is their discision to make. I am surprised that people really find it acceptible to condone killing in Allahs name, Allah is all forgiving and it is not for mere slaves to make any judgement on Allahs creations. What if a person was about to revert, if a life is entrusted to a Muslim it cannot be right to take that life surely, peace to all
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Fishman
12-12-2008, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by TKTony
Got to admit I am with you on this subject, whatever a person chooses to do with their body is their discision to make. I am surprised that people really find it acceptible to condone killing in Allahs name, Allah is all forgiving and it is not for mere slaves to make any judgement on Allahs creations. What if a person was about to revert, if a life is entrusted to a Muslim it cannot be right to take that life surely, peace to all
:sl:
Given that you need to have four, adult, male Muslim witnesses to even stand a chance of punishing somebody with hudud punishments (ie. stoning, beheading), then it is pretty hard to kill somebody for just doing what they want in private.
:w:
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brotherinfaith
12-12-2008, 09:06 PM
if it's a persoal choice and each on e is free to do whatever thy want with their boby why god destroyed the people of lut then or do we know best than allah ?????
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alcurad
12-12-2008, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by brotherinfaith
it's not our opinion to kill but what the prophet said about them and that is a hadith sahih
refer to post #18.

generally, society begins to accept open homosexuality at the time it peaks materially/intellectually. generally it's also a sign of impending weakness/decline. on the other hand when a society-usually backward- begins to identify homosexuals as bad and in need of punishment, that's one of the signs of it becoming stronger,usually the enemy's/others moral decay-including homosexuality- is used as a rallying cry against them,in contrast to perceived purity. simply look at all the 'Barbarian' invasions that occurred through history, against more 'civilized' societies like the Romans,Persians, Abbasids etc.
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alcurad
12-12-2008, 10:08 PM
the opinion that the companions were unanimously agreed to the execution of homosexuals is a claim that needs much backing. these are only the words of a single scholar who claimed they were unanimously agreed and was picked up and is usually flung about as some sort of indisputable proof. even if all the companions were agreed to that, it still is not binding since there are no saheeh ahadith or verse that explicitly state so, there are only weak ahadith. again, post #18
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alcurad
12-12-2008, 10:11 PM
also, not to insult or anything, but from my personal experience people who feel very strongly against homosexuals might have an inclination towards homosexuality themselves, only societal pressure/conditioning make them against it.
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Tony
12-12-2008, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by alcurad
also, not to insult or anything, but from my personal experience people who feel very strongly against homosexuals might have an inclination towards homosexuality themselves, only societal pressure/conditioning make them against it.
No far from it, just really dislike any thing I perciece as bullying or victimisation. I understand what u say, but my beef is with bullies due to personal probs as a youngster, sometimes put my foot down too hard or in wrong place. but will never accept the singling out of any section of humanity
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alcurad
12-12-2008, 10:21 PM
dude, I didn't even remotely mean your post..
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Tony
12-12-2008, 10:24 PM
Oh yes, just reread your post, think its time for me to log off till 2mo. gone a bit posting crazy. peace
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alcurad
12-13-2008, 12:52 AM
Ibn Taimiyah in his book entitled السياسة الشرعية في إصلاح الراعي والرعية mentioned that "the sahaba agreed unanimously etc", and people quote him on that as if every scholar before and after him said it.
many scholars have said that there are no sahih ahadeeth regarding the punishment of homosexuals, if you take the opposing opinion that's your choice.
and attack the argument not the arguer. getting into personal allegations and attacks only shows how much you can't argue properly. so do try to be more even headed when discussing, throwing accusations right and left is not a very good way to prove a point.
also, keep in mind that scholars are also human, and their rulings are their personal opinions as it were. but I'm not going to argue semantics with you.
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