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glo
12-18-2008, 01:02 PM
Fata Lemes, 33, said that she was pestered for sex by customers at the Rocket bar and restaurant in London's Mayfair where waitresses were "treated as prostitutes". She claimed the bar was run "like a sex club".

Miss Lemes, a Bosnian Muslim, told an employment tribunal she had initially worn loose-fitting black clothes to work but claimed that after a week she was ordered to wear a clinging, sleeveless, bright red dress that had a plunging neckline and was open at the back.

Miss Lemes said she tried the outfit on and found it was "physically revealing and openly sexual".

She said: "It was indecent. If you put this dress on you might as well be naked. I did not want men looking at my body.

"I was brought up a Muslim, and am not used to wearing sexually attractive clothes."

She refused to wear it and claims that she was immediately fired.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...g-uniform.html

Any comments?
I was wondering why a Muslim woman would work in a cocktail bar (where alcohol is served) in the first place.

Peace
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Yanal
12-19-2008, 10:17 PM
:sl:
Yes me too rather strafe than work at a place that serves alcohol and tells waitress to wear reveling clothing, astagfarullah, may Allah help every Muslim.
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Chuck
12-19-2008, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...g-uniform.html

Any comments?
I was wondering why a Muslim woman would work in a cocktail bar (where alcohol is served) in the first place.

Peace
Perhaps thats the only job she could find. I knew a Pakistani guy who worked in a bar when he first moved in this country. Worked there for a month then went on to another job. He said he couldn't find another job and he wasn't drinking, just serving. He prayed salat 5 times a day, but wasn't very religious in appearance.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-20-2008, 12:33 AM
The bar told her what to wear, she refused, she got fired. I don't see the problem.
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Whatsthepoint
12-20-2008, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...g-uniform.html

Any comments?
I was wondering why a Muslim woman would work in a cocktail bar (where alcohol is served) in the first place.

Peace
Perhaps she's the drinking type Muslim.
Reply

Snowflake
12-20-2008, 12:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...g-uniform.html

Any comments?
I was wondering why a Muslim woman would work in a cocktail bar (where alcohol is served) in the first place.

Peace

Hi Glo,

It's the same reason, why some muslims, lie, steal, kill, fornicate and do everything else they are forbidden to - lack of knowledge or no fear of Allah.
Reply

crayon
12-20-2008, 12:50 PM
Not too sure what she was expecting when she took a job at a bar?
In some places, like Hooters, female waitresses are told in their contract that their job requires them to use their sex appeal, and basically ***** themselves out to customers, if they don't they'll be in violation of their contract.
It's pretty much the same in cocktail bars, isn't it? I personally think that it's disgusting, but I guess those waitresses disagree..
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Danah
12-20-2008, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
Hi Glo,

It's the same reason, why some muslims, lie, steal, kill, fornicate and do everything else they are forbidden to - lack of knowledge or no fear of Allah.
exactly, Unfortunately not all Muslims are the same, there is the good Muslims and there is those who dont follow the teaching very well...nothing else

its just like in any other religions, you will not find all the followers of any religion act the same or following the teaching in the same manner
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julie sarri
12-20-2008, 01:10 PM
Its probably a lack of knowledge she may have grown up in a Muslim family that didn't follow Islam correctly as nowadays culture plays a big part and traditions that people get in to there heads that they are Islamic where they are not and if she was worried about men looking at her why was she not wearing hijab because she new it would be difficult to find work and it also depends on whether she had family here or not she may have had to take what she could find to support her self if she is here alone she may or may not have a visa or paper work s she went or a job that maybe wouldn't ask for a visa or work permit there are may factors that could have lead this women take that type of job i hope someone will give her dawah in the future inshaallah
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Hamayun
12-20-2008, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The bar told her what to wear, she refused, she got fired. I don't see the problem.
If your boss told you to wear a bra to work you wouldn't see a problem with it would you? Actually don't bother answering that question +o(

Secondly the woman got what she deserved and I hope she gets no compensation for it.

She got a job in a bar... what was she expecting? priests and nuns? Good thing she got fired from that job.
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S_87
12-20-2008, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...g-uniform.html

Any comments?
I was wondering why a Muslim woman would work in a cocktail bar (where alcohol is served) in the first place.

Peace
ditto my thoughts.
Reply

The Ruler
12-20-2008, 01:29 PM
Miss Lemes, a Bosnian Muslim, told an employment tribunal she had initially worn loose-fitting black clothes to work but claimed that after a week she was ordered to wear a clinging, sleeveless, bright red dress that had a plunging neckline and was open at the back.
Yet,

Miss Lemes said she tried the outfit on and found it was "physically revealing and openly sexual".
I was laughing at that particular bit. How stupid can one woman get?
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Whatsthepoint
12-20-2008, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
If your boss told you to wear a bra to work you wouldn't see a problem with it would you? Actually don't bother answering that question +o(
What I'm saying is that she doesn't have the right to sue the bar.
Reply

S_87
12-20-2008, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What I'm saying is that she doesn't have the right to sue the bar.
no she doesnt. they should sue her for being a pain lol
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Hamayun
12-20-2008, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What I'm saying is that she doesn't have the right to sue the bar.
I have to admit I do agree with you.

But I am looking at this in another way too...

What if she wasn't a Muslim but just didn't feel comfortable in the dress? Isn't democracy supposed to give you the right to choose not to dress indecently?

Peace :)
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-20-2008, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
What if she wasn't a Muslim but just didn't feel comfortable in the dress? Isn't democracy supposed to give you the right to choose not to dress indecently?
Yep, but not everywhere. There's this thing called dress code that an employee has to abide to.
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Amadeus85
12-20-2008, 04:02 PM
Its same situation as if a jew wanted a job in a butcher shop and then accused the owner that he had to touch the pork meat.
Reply

glo
12-20-2008, 05:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
What if she wasn't a Muslim but just didn't feel comfortable in the dress? Isn't democracy supposed to give you the right to choose not to dress indecently?
Perhaps the fact that this is a muslimah is not so important?

Personally I would feel extremely uncomfortable to work in an environment where men come to drink and are likely to make leery comments or treat me (and other women) in ways which I would consider disrespectful.
I would also hate to have to wear revealing clothing - which can only add to the already uncomfortable situation I mentioned in the previous sentence.

I dislike the idea so much that I am not likely to ever consider taking a job in such a place.

However, I wouldn't take such a job, but then expect to wear different clothes. I guess the dresscode is part of the job contract. You either agree and do your job, or you don't and don't.
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Hamayun
12-20-2008, 08:43 PM
I completely agree. She can't put her hand in fire and not expect it to burn *as someone mentioned earlier*

She has no right to sue the employers. I was merely trying to see the situation from different angles.
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S1aveofA11ah
12-21-2008, 10:01 PM
Well if this report is true (as there is so much 'this Muslim did this that and the other' trend in the media going on) then one has to establish what this ladies contract says about dress code. As the saying goes 'there is always two sides to every story' and it would be important to check out all the facts on both sides. One start would be to analyse the dress code over the history of the establishment. Did it change much?. Was it predominately of one type e.g. smart or revealing?. Of course sleazy dressing will be for sleazy joints and vice versa.

I've seen some bars etc. in the UK and usually the men/women are quite smartly dressed in things like long-sleeved shirts, waistcoats, trousers etc - i.e. what would generally constitue a smart unifrom. That dress they asked her to put on seems more like something a person would go out to party/flirt in - it doesn't conjure up the immediate picture of 'uniform'.

Anyway like I said the case needs looking into deeply especially before making generalisations like "she has no case to sue or not".
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Izyan
12-22-2008, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
Well if this report is true (as there is so much 'this Muslim did this that and the other' trend in the media going on) then one has to establish what this ladies contract says about dress code. As the saying goes 'there is always two sides to every story' and it would be important to check out all the facts on both sides. One start would be to analyse the dress code over the history of the establishment. Did it change much?. Was it predominately of one type e.g. smart or revealing?. Of course sleazy dressing will be for sleazy joints and vice versa.

I've seen some bars etc. in the UK and usually the men/women are quite smartly dressed in things like long-sleeved shirts, waistcoats, trousers etc - i.e. what would generally constitue a smart unifrom. That dress they asked her to put on seems more like something a person would go out to party/flirt in - it doesn't conjure up the immediate picture of 'uniform'.

Anyway like I said the case needs looking into deeply especially before making generalisations like "she has no case to sue or not".
Dress codes can be changed at will. One day you can be made to wear a red shirt and brown pants and the next day they can consider blue a better color and make you change.
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Muezzin
12-22-2008, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Its same situation as if a jew wanted a job in a butcher shop and then accused the owner that he had to touch the pork meat.
Exactly.

Could the woman in question really not have found a job that was not in a cocktail bar?
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Izyan
12-22-2008, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Exactly.

Could the woman in question really not have found a job that was not in a cocktail bar?
Those jobs are a dime a dozen. People get burned out in the food service industry pretty quickly. I did it for many years while paying for school. If she didn't like it she could have quit and found a new job.
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S1aveofA11ah
12-22-2008, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Exactly.

Could the woman in question really not have found a job that was not in a cocktail bar?
Well why don't you give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she was desperate for money (had to take a job to feed/house herself) - doing this job but hoping to move to a more halal one in future. Things don't all come overnight.
Reply

S1aveofA11ah
12-22-2008, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
Dress codes can be changed at will. One day you can be made to wear a red shirt and brown pants and the next day they can consider blue a better color and make you change.
That is what this issue is all about. Say a man works in IT (in an office for example) and he wears a suit/tie as company dress code for say the first 3 months. Then one day his department head calls him and says from tomorrow he has to wear just his underpants and giant wellington boots at his desk then some people might object from religious grounds (undies exposing awrah)or dispute things from the angle of practicality (giant wellies are hard to walk around in).

Clearly from the Islamic angle to wear the dress described is haram - as it is known that a Muslim women should dress modestly (the meaning of 'hijab' - not just the cloth worn on the head), I think the majority of Muslims agree to that.

It strange - recently UPS have had some coverage where they did the same i.e. dres code change to some of their Muslim female workers asking them to wear shorter skirts due to health and safety (they claimed) and the ladies are I think taking legal action (as they never had a problem wearing what they did before).
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wth1257
12-22-2008, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Its same situation as if a jew wanted a job in a butcher shop and then accused the owner that he had to touch the pork meat.
Prostitution is not a facet of being a waitress. She was fufilling her duties as a waitress. Her boss was trying to coerce her into turning herself into a sex object and refused to protect her from total sexual objectification and harassment. That is an affront to her dignity as a human being and a woman. A Jewish (or Muslim) individual looking for work as a butcher who objects to handling pork is failing to fufill a vital aspect of their profession (in the Western context). If she had decided to be a stripper and objected to wearing revealing clothing that would be an apt comparison.
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Hamayun
12-22-2008, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Prostitution is not a facet of being a waitress. She was fufilling her duties as a waitress. Her boss was trying to coerce her into turning herself into a sex object and refused to protect her from total sexual objectification and harassment. That is an affront to her dignity as a human being and a woman. A Jewish (or Muslim) individual looking for work as a butcher who objects to handling pork is failing to fufill a vital aspect of their profession (in the Western context). If she had decided to be a stripper and objected to wearing revealing clothing that would be an apt comparison.

100% agreed. :)

Great post :thumbs_up
Reply

Izyan
12-22-2008, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
That is what this issue is all about. Say a man works in IT (in an office for example) and he wears a suit/tie as company dress code for say the first 3 months. Then one day his department head calls him and says from tomorrow he has to wear just his underpants and giant wellington boots at his desk then some people might object from religious grounds (undies exposing awrah)or dispute things from the angle of practicality (giant wellies are hard to walk around in).

Clearly from the Islamic angle to wear the dress described is haram - as it is known that a Muslim women should dress modestly (the meaning of 'hijab' - not just the cloth worn on the head), I think the majority of Muslims agree to that.

It strange - recently UPS have had some coverage where they did the same i.e. dres code change to some of their Muslim female workers asking them to wear shorter skirts due to health and safety (they claimed) and the ladies are I think taking legal action (as they never had a problem wearing what they did before).
My employer would be well within his right to make me the undies and boots as in I would be well within my right to quit. As for the long skirts they are a tripping hazard.
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S1aveofA11ah
12-22-2008, 08:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Prostitution is not a facet of being a waitress. She was fufilling her duties as a waitress. Her boss was trying to coerce her into turning herself into a sex object and refused to protect her from total sexual objectification and harassment. That is an affront to her dignity as a human being and a woman. A Jewish (or Muslim) individual looking for work as a butcher who objects to handling pork is failing to fufill a vital aspect of their profession (in the Western context). If she had decided to be a stripper and objected to wearing revealing clothing that would be an apt comparison.

Good points wth1257. Whats most important here is the relationship of the concept of Halal (permissible) and Haram (forbidden) in Islam with regards to this particular work scenario.

Some non-Muslim women out there might have even favoured the raunchiness of wearing such a dress in such a job over normal, less revealing unifrom. They might have preferred this and the benefits they feel it would bring e.g. more stares/comments from customers, more dates from customers etc.

However, for the Muslim woman (in Arabic its: 'Muslimah') things would be in the total opposite. This wearing of the dress for the Muslimah is Haram unless its for someone she is in a sexual relationship with i.e. for her husband only.

The reason is because the Muslimah's dress code has certain guidelines - detailed ones in fact. Again I mention the word 'Hijab' (meaning modesty) as many think it refers just to a 'headscarf' worn by Muslim ladies. If that was the case then wearing just a thong down the highstreet with a headscarf would be considered Islamic which it isn't.

At the same time it is Haram for her to serve alcohol but this doesn't detract from the Haram of the dress so it is neither here nor there.

Overall it sounds like another case of unjust, persecution of Muslims on a micro-level. She has little chance of getting far with matters. She can sue and maybe win a little and be out of a job, or sue and win and keep her job but be bullied (with little record of proof) until she has to leave etc.

I repeat my oft-mentioned statement to all people of all religions on this forum (ALL people including those who believe God doesn't exist) - there will NEVER be peace in this world until the people strive first for justice as a prerequisite for peace. Its high time folks to stop harming your neighbours on Earth and start helping - me first and foremost.
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S1aveofA11ah
12-22-2008, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
My employer would be well within his right to make me the undies and boots as in I would be well within my right to quit. As for the long skirts they are a tripping hazard.
Does that make it right though?. If he told you to come in naked every day and then you thought - "No I can't do this" then you would be jobless. Then if you went to the next employer after suffering from being poorer and he said "You can't wear anything except a necktie" and you thought "Gotta go - too cold/embarrasing etc". then you would be in an endless downward spiral of 'have a job/lost it' leading to a financial meltdown. As for long skirts being attributed to the UPS case (not saying you did) - then that is an investigation issue.
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Muezzin
12-23-2008, 11:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
Well why don't you give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she was desperate for money (had to take a job to feed/house herself) - doing this job but hoping to move to a more halal one in future. Things don't all come overnight.
True. However, were I in her position, I would not really find myself able to complain when something like this happened. I would try to find another job.

That said, I hope that she does succeed in any litigation.
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Izyan
12-23-2008, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
Does that make it right though?. If he told you to come in naked every day and then you thought - "No I can't do this" then you would be jobless. Then if you went to the next employer after suffering from being poorer and he said "You can't wear anything except a necktie" and you thought "Gotta go - too cold/embarrasing etc". then you would be in an endless downward spiral of 'have a job/lost it' leading to a financial meltdown. As for long skirts being attributed to the UPS case (not saying you did) - then that is an investigation issue.
Then I would chose another profession. I would go into porn and be shocked to see a bunch of naked people. Whatever happened to Allah supplying for your needs? You don't have to take the job. If you need a job where you can dress modestly Allah will supply one.
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S1aveofA11ah
12-23-2008, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
Then I would chose another profession. I would go into porn and be shocked to see a bunch of naked people. Whatever happened to Allah supplying for your needs? You don't have to take the job. If you need a job where you can dress modestly Allah will supply one.
Hmm...you would go 'into porn'?...I think that shows the viewers what kind of mindset you have Izyan, May Allah guide you to Islam (ameen). I don't think any decent Muslim would wish to take this 'into porn' option as it is against the teachings of Islam.
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wth1257
12-23-2008, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
Then I would chose another profession. I would go into porn and be shocked to see a bunch of naked people. Whatever happened to Allah supplying for your needs? You don't have to take the job. If you need a job where you can dress modestly Allah will supply one.



The Qur'an gives Muslims a dispensation with regards to Haram activities with respect to dietary laws in extream situations, and the head scholar at Al Anzar issued a Fatwa excusing Muslim women in countries like France from wearing the Hijab so they can pursue their education.

I suppose I just don’t see how your reasoning is coherent with Islamic precedent
Reply

Izyan
12-23-2008, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
Hmm...you would go 'into porn'?...I think that shows the viewers what kind of mindset you have Izyan, May Allah guide you to Islam (ameen). I don't think any decent Muslim would wish to take this 'into porn' option as it is against the teachings of Islam.
Bad keyboard and I didn't check what I typed before I hit enter. What I meant to say was IF I were to go into porn I shouldn't be suprised to see naked people. I was a muslim and now I'm a christian. I think I'll stay one thank you for the offer though.
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Izyan
12-23-2008, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
The Qur'an gives Muslims a dispensation with regards to Haram activities with respect to dietary laws in extream situations, and the head scholar at Al Anzar issued a Fatwa excusing Muslim women in countries like France from wearing the Hijab so they can pursue their education.

I suppose I just don’t see how your reasoning is coherent with Islamic precedent
Once again bad keyboard and things didn't come out clearly. Sorry.
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Grace Seeker
12-23-2008, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
The Qur'an gives Muslims a dispensation with regards to Haram activities with respect to dietary laws in extream situations, and the head scholar at Al Anzar issued a Fatwa excusing Muslim women in countries like France from wearing the Hijab so they can pursue their education.

I suppose I just don’t see how your reasoning is coherent with Islamic precedent


Now, I learned something new here. Muslims can get dispensations to live contrary to the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith???? I just thought it was different interpretations that caused some to wear the hijab and others to say it was unnecessary. But here it sounds like you are saying the interpretation is correct that it is required, but we are going to excuse you from having to follow it.

Do I understand correctly?
Reply

Woodrow
12-24-2008, 12:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now, I learned something new here. Muslims can get dispensations to live contrary to the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith???? I just thought it was different interpretations that caused some to wear the hijab and others to say it was unnecessary. But here it sounds like you are saying the interpretation is correct that it is required, but we are going to excuse you from having to follow it.

Do I understand correctly?
It does sound like:

Now, I learned something new here. Muslims can get dispensations to live contrary to the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith????

But it is not that simple. You need to remember that we follow no earthly religious leaders. However, scholars and Imams will sometimes issue fatwahs in which they are requesting something or explaining something. But, the end result is we as individuals need to do the research and see if we are sinning. We can not use the excuse that Sheik Somebody, said it was ok to do.

There is a general consensus among scholars that Allaah(swt) is all merciful and all just. with that being so it seems logical that Allaah(swt) would never give us trials without the ability to overcome them.

So it is with life and restrictions, there are times when we can not follow what we are required to follow. Not because of choice but because of necessity. For example we are forbidden to eat pork. If some how we got stranded in Antarctica and for the next 2 years the only food available was frozen bacon sandwiches, it is doubtful we would be punished because we ate only a sufficient amount of the bacon to sustain life until we are rescued.

So it is with employment. Although some jobs are haram and it is sinful to work in them, if it is necessary to preserve the lives of our family to work at such a job long enough to find halal work, most scholars would agree that it is doubtful we would be punished for the sin, if we can not avoid it. That does not mean it is not a sin, it just means we can trust in Allaah(swt) to only punish us for that which is the result of our free will and not the result of circumstances.

On a personal note, I think the sin would be getting ourselves in such a situation to begin with. That I feel would result in just punishment as a sin. But, fortunately it is not up to me to judge what is or is not a willful sin in others. I think the best choice is to avoid sin at any personal cost and do not use the cop-out that Allaah(swt) will ignore it, because we had no choice. I can not see any situation that would force me into a position of being able to avoid committing a sin, unless I did something dumb to get me there.
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Tony
12-24-2008, 12:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
Bad keyboard and I didn't check what I typed before I hit enter. What I meant to say was IF I were to go into porn I shouldn't be suprised to see naked people. I was a muslim and now I'm a christian. I think I'll stay one thank you for the offer though.

I was a muslim and now I'm a christian.

May Allah guide you back to Islam, brother you are truly lost have you no sense of the punishment awaiting you.My heart really and truly cries for you
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wth1257
12-24-2008, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now, I learned something new here. Muslims can get dispensations to live contrary to the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith???? I just thought it was different interpretations that caused some to wear the hijab and others to say it was unnecessary. But here it sounds like you are saying the interpretation is correct that it is required, but we are going to excuse you from having to follow it.

Do I understand correctly?
In extraordionary cases and to a limited extent.

There are arguments over the Hijab but in the instance I mentioned it was in reaction to laws passed by secular governments baring women from employment and education if they were the Hijab. It's not like a "get out of gail free card" I mean the women couldn't go around in high heels and a mini skirt, she would still have to be modest. And I assume she would have to wear the Hijab when not in the buildings where it was prohibited.

At least this is how I understand it.
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Izyan
12-24-2008, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
I was a muslim and now I'm a christian.

May Allah guide you back to Islam, brother you are truly lost have you no sense of the punishment awaiting you.My heart really and truly cries for you
Don't cry for me brother for I have finally found peace. I don't belive any punishment is awaiting for I have found my calling but I sincerely thank you for your concern
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aamirsaab
12-24-2008, 08:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
In extraordionary cases and to a limited extent.

There are arguments over the Hijab but in the instance I mentioned it was in reaction to laws passed by secular governments baring women from employment and education if they were the Hijab. It's not like a "get out of gail free card" I mean the women couldn't go around in high heels and a mini skirt, she would still have to be modest. And I assume she would have to wear the Hijab when not in the buildings where it was prohibited.

At least this is how I understand it.
You are correct in your understanding. As a general rule, fatwas are for specific occasions such as the one for hijabs in france.

As for the topic; I know of muslims who work in mcdonalds in the UK (where it is haram). Sometimes, a haram or grey area job is the only job they can get (and, financially speaking, it is needed!) so we really shouldn't blast those people for doing so.
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Woodrow
12-24-2008, 11:18 PM
Sometimes it is best to end a thread after a good reply.

Before this thread gets hijacked and turned into an off topic clothing debate let us let it rest in peace.

:threadclo:
Reply

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