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Tony
12-18-2008, 03:47 PM
what are peoples thoughts on this, Will use Hitler as example but could be 1 of so many who have commited grave sins such as genecide. If Hitler had not taken his life, but instead he had sincerely embraced Islam then been killed, would he have been forgiven and given access to paradise. I know if your sins are as high as the heavens then you repent that Allah will forgive, but is it that simple. For me he did not deserve forgiveness but I am insignificant. The question is, would Allah have foegiven him. Peace
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Tony
12-18-2008, 03:53 PM
:bump1:
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islamirama
12-18-2008, 04:30 PM
I think you will find your answer if you study Islam and history. Frown was a very evil tyrant who did lot of bad stuff to people of Moses a.s. He is worst then Hitler because he was the enemy of Allah's Prophet (musa a.s.) and an enemy of Allah because he wanted his bony behind recognized as divine. When he was about to be drowned in the sea, the archAngel Jibrael took dirt from the ocean floor and shoved it in his mouth so he wouldn't be able to ask Allah for forgiveness and help. Jibrael a.s. feared that Allah would forgive this evil person out of His vast Mercy. Frown called on Musa many times to save him, even Allah says that had he called on Allah once, Allah would've saved him. Remember that Allah created 100 parts of mercy and only 1 part is here on earth, out of which we are kind to each other.

As far as paradise is concerned, Allah will forgive all sins even if the are as vast as the foam on the oceans or the sand in the deserts, so long as you sincerely repent and ask for forgiveness. Allah will forgive all your sins related to Him. He will not forgive right away any sins you have committed against another person, for that He requires you to first ask forgiveness from the one you transgressed. So to answer your question, Hitler/Bush/Blair/etc will need to ask forgiveness for all the evil they did to other people first. Those people can either forgive or they can ask for justice, in which case all his deeds will be given to those he did injustice to and if it is not enough then their sins will be given to him till it's fully repayed and then he will be casted into hellfire, having such a heavy scale of sins and no deeds to save him.
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Danah
12-18-2008, 04:33 PM
:sl:

Allah can forgive whom he want only and we cant decide who we think that deserve forgiveness or not. We cant intrude or interfere the way that Allah deal with his servant. He is the one that create them and he is the only one who decide what to do with them


first, he can guide whoever he want
It is true thou will not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but ALLAH guides those whom He will. And He knows best those who receive guidance.
[56: al qasas]


and forgive however he want
To ALLAH belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. he forgiveth whom he pleaseth and punisheth whom he pleaseth; but God is oft forgiving, most merciful.
[129: al emran]

but you might ask, then what will happened to the poor people that were suffering because of the evil people?
Allah dont waste the right of the sincere people, even if they did not got their right back in this life, they will have it in the after life

Allah said:
....for ALLAH never harms those who serve him.

[182: al emran]

hope that answer the question
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aadil77
12-18-2008, 04:47 PM
Pharoah began to believe when he was drowning, but Allah did not forgive him, as it says in the Quran.

Its all up to Allah in the end we can't really assume anything
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Keltoi
12-18-2008, 04:48 PM
This isn't from an Islamic perspective, but I believe it would depend on the sincerity of his or her heart. If lying on a death bed one simply accepts a "religion" without any sincere repentence I doubt it would make any difference. And of course God is the One who grants salvation, so it is above our paygrade to guess.
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Tony
12-19-2008, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
I think you will find your answer if you study Islam and history. Frown was a very evil tyrant who did lot of bad stuff to people of Moses a.s. He is worst then Hitler because he was the enemy of Allah's Prophet (musa a.s.) and an enemy of Allah because he wanted his bony behind recognized as divine. When he was about to be drowned in the sea, the archAngel Jibrael took dirt from the ocean floor and shoved it in his mouth so he wouldn't be able to ask Allah for forgiveness and help. Jibrael a.s. feared that Allah would forgive this evil person out of His vast Mercy. Frown called on Musa many times to save him, even Allah says that had he called on Allah once, Allah would've saved him. Remember that Allah created 100 parts of mercy and only 1 part is here on earth, out of which we are kind to each other.

As far as paradise is concerned, Allah will forgive all sins even if the are as vast as the foam on the oceans or the sand in the deserts, so long as you sincerely repent and ask for forgiveness. Allah will forgive all your sins related to Him. He will not forgive right away any sins you have committed against another person, for that He requires you to first ask forgiveness from the one you transgressed. So to answer your question, Hitler/Bush/Blair/etc will need to ask forgiveness for all the evil they did to other people first. Those people can either forgive or they can ask for justice, in which case all his deeds will be given to those he did injustice to and if it is not enough then their sins will be given to him till it's fully repayed and then he will be casted into hellfire, having such a heavy scale of sins and no deeds to save him.

Thanks for your reply, I am a little confused in as much as If we only ask for Allahs forgivness and only Allah can forgive why do we need to ask others forgivness. I can see how it makes sense but is it wrong. Im not arguing, I am seeking truth only. Peace
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islamirama
12-19-2008, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by TKTony
Thanks for your reply, I am a little confused in as much as If we only ask for Allahs forgivness and only Allah can forgive why do we need to ask others forgivness. I can see how it makes sense but is it wrong. Im not arguing, I am seeking truth only. Peace

Giving up Hope of the Mercy of Allah is a crime in itself:

"Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins (except shirk): for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'" (39:53)

"And it is He who accepts repentance from His servants and pardons the evil deed and knows what you do." (42:25)


1) Hadith Qudsi:
Allah, the Almighty, has said: O Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.

2) Prophet (SW) has said:
A certain person had committed 99 murders. He went to a scholar and asked, is there any chance of my being forgiven? The scholar said no, you have committed too many crimes. The man killed the scholar too, but his heart was restless, so he went to another scholar and asked the same question. He was told yes, but you must leave this town of bad people and go live in the next town in the company of good people.
So the man set out to the town he was told to go to. On the way he died. A man passing by saw two angels arguing over his dead body. The Angel from Hell said, 'His body belongs to me as he had not done any good in his life.' The Angel from Heaven said, 'His body belongs to me as he had repented and was set out to be with good people.' The man who was the passer-by said, 'Let us measure the distance of his body from the town he left and the town he was going to.'


This was done. He was found to be nearer to the town he was going to. In another version, the earth was ordered by Allah to shrink and make the distance smaller, so that he was admitted to Heaven.

But it is not just Allah we do wrong against, we also do injustice against our fellow man and other creation. Just as it is important to believe in the mercy and forgiveness of Allah, it is also necessary to base human relations on forgiveness. We cannot expect Allah’s forgiveness unless we also forgive those who do wrong to us. Forgiving each other, even forgiving one’s enemies is one of the most important Islamic teaching. In the Qur’an Allah has described the Believers as “those who avoid major sins and acts of indecencies and when they are angry they forgive.” (al-Shura 42:37) Later in the same Sûrah Allah says, “The reward of the evil is the evil thereof, but whosoever forgives and makes amends, his reward is upon Allah.” (al-Shura 42:40) In another place the Qur’an says, “If you punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, indeed it is better for the patient. Endure you patiently. Your patience is not except through the help of Allah." (al-Nahl 16:126-127)


So we can forgive those who do us wrong or we can ask for recompense in equal to what they did to us, this is islamic justice. But if someone is unable to ask for justice, like against a tyrant or someone powerful. Then we will get the justice on J-Day. On that day you can take their good deeds as compensation for what they did to you. If their deeds are not enough to pay you, then you start giving your bad deeds to them till its payed in full. And everyone else will do the same to everyone else. So imagine whole of iraq and afghanistan asking Bush and his buddies for justice, these war criminals won't have anything but mountains of sins from others. And where else would a sinner be if not hell?
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Tony
12-19-2008, 11:16 PM
Many thanks you are helping me alot brother and others too. This example makes it very clear. Now please give me some advice on not loosing my cool with the atheists in here who are persistent in their denials, I am getting angry sometimes with the comments and wonder whether I should abandon the forum, I am learning so much and it helps me concentrate on Allah more, but I get vexed also. Peace.
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Eric H
12-20-2008, 01:42 AM
Greetings and peace be with you TKTony;
Now please give me some advice on not loosing my cool with the atheists in here who are persistent in their denials, I am getting angry sometimes with the comments
Anger is like picking up a burning coal with the intention of throwing it at the person we are angry with. The chances are that we are the only one getting burned by our anger, it eats away inside of us and makes us bitter. Anger takes us away from the love and mercy of God.

In the spirit of praying to a loving and merciful God.

Eric
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islamirama
12-20-2008, 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by TKTony
Now please give me some advice on not loosing my cool with the atheists in here who are persistent in their denials, I am getting angry sometimes with the comments and wonder whether I should abandon the forum, I am learning so much and it helps me concentrate on Allah more, but I get vexed also. Peace.
Brother the atheist deny God, they say deny religion bout atheism is a religion as well. What is religion but a system of beliefs and their beliefs limited their human brain. We are told to approach all those who discuss with good manners and to respond to them in a manner better than theirs. This way we practice are deen as well as give dawah to them by our example. If they something that is against Islam in negativity in any way then you can report that to the mods so proper actions are taken. If it is not then dismiss it as nothing like their beliefs. Read surah Kuffiroon and even post that to them when you think you have hit a dead end and talking to them is like hitting your head against the wall.


Sura Kuffairoon


In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


Say: O ye that reject Faith!

I worship not that which ye worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your Way, and to me mine.
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Tony
12-20-2008, 11:35 PM
Thanks again brother, you are right. I decide to stay on and learn/help but will stay away from big discussion for the moment. peace
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Eric H
12-21-2008, 04:30 AM
Greetings and peace be with you TKTony;
I decide to stay on and learn/help but will stay away from big discussion for the moment. peace
I think the internet is a good place to try and manage anger and learn patience, here are a couple of tips.

When you read a post that makes you feel angry, try and wait at least a day before you reply.

Pray for that person, they may also be feeling angry about something, ask God for help to make you feel at peace with yourself before replying. Make prayers that they will also find an inner peace.

If you are still feeling angry after a day, wait another day before you reply, make more prayers for peace in your heart. If you cannot find a peaceful way to reply, then do not reply at all.

The stronger person is not the one who wins an argument, rather it is the person who controls their anger.

The more often you reply in this way, you will find yourself becomming stronger and kinder. The only person you can change is yourself, you cannot change other people, they have to want to change themselves.

In the spirit of praying for an inner peace that surpasses all understanding.

Eric
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