Somali millitants destroy Churches, graves.

[Fishman]

Somali fighters destroying shrines Al-Shabab, an armed group fighting transitional government and Ethiopian forces in Somalia, is desecrating religious shrines in the south of the country, Al Jazeera has learned.
The ancient graves of clerics and other prominent people are among holy sites being targeted by the armed group in the port city of Kismayo.

Al-Shabab took control of Somalia's third-largest city about four months ago and quickly announced it would not tolerate anything it deemed un-Islamic.

Al Jazeera correspondent Mohammed Adow said Kismayo's Roman Catholic church was torn down just days after they seized power through bloody fighting.
"The 60-year-old church had not been used for nearly 20 years and not a single Christian lives in the city - but that was not a good enough reason for the militias to spare the building, he said."
"They are planning to replace it with a mosque."
Graves targeted

The fighters then turned their hammers on graves, some of which contained the remains of followers of Sufi, a mystical form of Islam.

The sites have been revered for decades and are regularly visited by people paying homage to the dead, a practice al-Shabab has condemned as being akin to idolatry.
"We are a chosen lot by Allah to try and correct the mystics of the people and guide them," Hassan Yaqub, a spokesman for the Kismayo administration, told Al Jazeera.

"We have a responsibility to the people to guard the people against all evil deeds."

In Marka, another coastal town in the south of the country, Al Jazeera witnessed the public implementation of Sharia, or Islamic law.
Three men accused of smoking hashish were given a public flogging before the al-Shabab fighters set fire to the drugs that were purportedly found when the men were arrested.

Such practices have become more frequent as al-Shabab has increased its influence across southern and central Somalia, taking back many of the areas which were formerly controlled by the Islamic Courts Union until late 2006.

In October, a 13-year-old girl was reportedly stoned to death in Kismayo after she was found guilty of adultery.
The UN later said that she had been raped.

Last month, 32 people were whipped for taking part in a traditional dance in the town of Balad, about 30km north of the capital Mogadishu.
Public support

The crowds which were made to witness the flogging in Marka appeared to be overwhelmingly supportive of the new measures being taken by the new Islamist authorities.
In depth

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Al-Shabab's crackdown questioned

Somali rebels gaining ground

Graves and churches destroyed

"We support their efforts 100 per cent. The establishment of Sharia is a source of joy for us all," one resident told Al Jazeera.
Another said: "We are happy with the Islamists, we now have peace and the criminals have nowhere to hide."

Somalia has had no effective government since a coup removed Siad Barre from power in 1991, leading to an almost total breakdown in law and order.

The only relative stability areas of the country have enjoyed in recent years was during the short period of rule by the Islamic Courts Union in 2006.

"For the Somali people the choice is really a very difficult one ... which one would they want to live with, a strict sharia or a situation with no security," Billow Kerrow, a Kenya-based regional analyst, told Al Jazeera.
"I think in the beginning they might find it easier to implement a very strict code of Islam, but as the government responsibilities start setting in the challenges will be enormous ... to try and practice a system which will be accommodating to all."

Source: Al-Jazeera
:sl:
Comments:
1. So much for Somalia being a 100% Muslim country. Why would they have Churches there if it was 100% Muslim?

2. If people don't like Churches or shrines then they have a right not to build them. But not to demolish other people's religious sites and whip them! I hope whoever they send to deal with the pirates also squashes these insects as well.

3. Islamic Courts Union is apparently against these guys, they fought recently.
:w:

[TrueStranger]

Source: Al-Jazeera
:sl:
Comments:
1. So much for Somalia being a 100% Muslim country. Why would they have Churches there if it was 100% Muslim?

2. If people don't like Churches or shrines then they have a right not to build them. But not to demolish other people's religious sites and whip them! I hope whoever they send to deal with the pirates also squashes these insects as well.

3. Islamic Courts Union is apparently against these guys, they fought recently.
:w:

The Churches were build by the Italians, as for Al-Shabaab, these men are the true definition of extremists, ignorant extremists. All they want is war, war, war. Yesterday they said they will fight oppression in Chile, Alaska, Iceland and some other peaceful countries. What oppression is there in those countries. :blind:

[noorahmad]

when Jerusalem was conquered, no churches, synagogues nor any place of worship was destroyed. Christians are people of the book, and are alloed to practice their religion

[themuffinman]

if no christians lived there whats the big deal... it will be turned into a mosque which people can actually use. as for the destruction of muslim graves. we dont know the whole story...perhaps people were falling into bid'ah and they did good if they destroyed em

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[The_Prince]

whats the problem? they took down a church which NOBODY is using, and there are NO Christians in the town, so whats the use of having it up there?

as for destroying the grave, it seems ppl were going to this grave and commiting the bidah of worshiping at it, which is one of the worst sins, hence they did something good by getting rid of this, for instance if u see something completely evil which can lead to hell, will you not remove this harm? offcourse you will.

[themuffinman]

oh and as for the stoning of the little girl i coulda sworn i read somewhere she confessed and asked for the punishment. imma try and find the link

[TrueStranger]

oh and as for the stoning of the little girl i coulda sworn i read somewhere she confessed and asked for the punishment. imma try and find the link

Sadly, that never was the case. Her family members including her father said the girl was 13, and was a rape victim. Al-Shabab spokesman claimed that the girl made those confessions.

[noorahmad]

still, why destroy the church, its part of the cultural heritage of Somalia, when the Muslim conquered Asia, they didnt destroyed the budha statues etc

[themuffinman]

im sure the idols inside the kabah were a cultural heritage for mecca...

[Follower]

There is an ever decreasing number of Christians in Somalia because of the treatment they have been receiving from Muslims. Some have been forced to convert to Islam, many killed.

[TrueStranger]

There is an ever decreasing number of Christians in Somalia because of the treatment they have been receiving from Muslims. Some have been forced to convert to Islam, many killed.

Are these so called Christian Somalis any different from the thousands of Muslim Somalis that are being killed by other Muslim Somalis for the past 18 years?

As far as i am concerned Al-Shabab is no different that any other armed group in Somalia, they find it very easy to kill fellow Somali Muslims. imsad

[The_Prince]

There is an ever decreasing number of Christians in Somalia because of the treatment they have been receiving from Muslims. Some have been forced to convert to Islam, many killed.

dont forget to mention alot of Somali Muslims have been oppressed by Ethopian Christians, when they invaded Somalia with the support of the USA to forcefully remove the Islamic courts, hence dont make it seem one way traffic, Christians have done their fare share of oppression to Somalis.

[Fishman]

whats the problem? they took down a church which NOBODY is using, and there are NO Christians in the town, so whats the use of having it up there?

:sl:
Yes, good idea. Maybe we should go into Egypt and take down those pryramids too, nobody's using them! After all, they were built by the Pharaoh, much worse than the Christians. :skeleton:

as for destroying the grave, it seems ppl were going to this grave and commiting the bidah of worshiping at it, which is one of the worst sins, hence they did something good by getting rid of this, for instance if u see something completely evil which can lead to hell, will you not remove this harm? offcourse you will

Wether worshipping at graves is Bidah or not is debateable. Just not on this site. But it is a simple fact that these millitants are repressing people's religious freedom. Would you support knocking down Shia Mosques? I suspect not...
:w:

[S1aveofA11ah]

:sl:
Yes, good idea. Maybe we should go into Egpyt and take done those pryramids too, nobody's using them! After all, they were built by the Pharaoh, much worse than the Christians. :skeleton:




Wether worshipping at graves is Bidah or not is debateable. Just not on this site. But it is a simple fact that these millitants are repressing people's religious freedom. Would you support knocking down Shia Mosques? I suspect not...
:w:

Rather than make a one-sided judgement with a few media repoerts - why don't you give these brothers the benefit of the doubt?. "Seek 70 excsuses for your Muslim brother" is a quote I hear sometimes - did you seek one for their actions?, if so please list it. Actually list the 70 if you like. You've never met them or heard things first hand from them - just reports. You've gotta know what atrocities Ethiopian Christains have done to these people and what that would do to a community's mindset. Just like Muslims committing suicide in Gitmo when Islam forbids suicide.

Maybe they removed the building because a mosque WAS needed there and the church's foundations were strong and already in place. I don't think Somalia is a very wealthy country - so perhaps they were in dire need. In Islam where there is a need it overriides the general rule e.g. if your stuck in a desert with a rescue chopper radioed in at 5 days away and you need a drink to live and all there is is hogs around you then maybe the blood/flesh of swine is what you need.

If no-one worshipped there for 20 years I doubt someone is gonna pull up on Sunday next week and start a hoo-haa about having a sermon etc.

Check out the facts first Insh'Allah.

[Izyan]

still, why destroy the church, its part of the cultural heritage of Somalia, when the Muslim conquered Asia, they didnt destroyed the budha statues etc

You're right there are ancient Budha statues in Afghani... oh right.

[Izyan]

Rather than make a one-sided judgement with a few media repoerts - why don't you give these brothers the benefit of the doubt?. "Seek 70 excsuses for your Muslim brother" is a quote I hear sometimes - did you seek one for their actions?, if so please list it. Actually list the 70 if you like. You've never met them or heard things first hand from them - just reports. You've gotta know what atrocities Ethiopian Christains have done to these people and what that would do to a community's mindset. Just like Muslims committing suicide in Gitmo when Islam forbids suicide.

Maybe they removed the building because a mosque WAS needed there and the church's foundations were strong and already in place. I don't think Somalia is a very wealthy country - so perhaps they were in dire need. In Islam where there is a need it overriides the general rule e.g. if your stuck in a desert with a rescue chopper radioed in at 5 days away and you need a drink to live and all there is is hogs around you then maybe the blood/flesh of swine is what you need.

If no-one worshipped there for 20 years I doubt someone is gonna pull up on Sunday next week and start a hoo-haa about having a sermon etc.

Check out the facts first Insh'Allah.

Why would you seek even 1 excuse if the act is inexcusable? When christians blow up abortion clinics I don't look for excuses I look for culpability and punishment.

[S_87]

may Allah assist them in doing what is right, keep them sincere and save them from evil.

[Omar_Mukhtar]

all the media is up in arms and muslims line up to apologise for Islam when an empty building, which is in ruins, is destroyed. But no international media reports AND no Muslims line up on ALjazeera when Ethiopia militia occupy nearly every masjid in Muqdisho, us them as military bases, prevent people from worshipping or butcher Islamic scholars to death.

[Izyan]

all the media is up in arms and muslims line up to apologise for Islam when an empty building, which is in ruins, is destroyed. But no international media reports AND no Muslims line up on ALjazeera when Ethiopia militia occupy nearly every masjid in Muqdisho, us them as military bases, prevent people from worshipping or butcher Islamic scholars to death.

Is it ok to tear down every mosque that's in disrepair? If it is empty is it no longer a holy site?

[Intisar]

1. So much for Somalia being a 100% Muslim country. Why would they have Churches there if it was 100% Muslim?

:sl: It was left over from the Italian colonizers, mainly in the capital city of Mogadishu.

[Omar_Mukhtar]

Is it ok to tear down every mosque that's in disrepair? If it is empty is it no longer a holy site?

it depends on the context.

[Izyan]

it depends on the context.

Explain

[Muezzin]

all the media is up in arms and muslims line up to apologise for Islam when an empty building, which is in ruins, is destroyed. But no international media reports AND no Muslims line up on ALjazeera when Ethiopia militia occupy nearly every masjid in Muqdisho, us them as military bases, prevent people from worshipping or butcher Islamic scholars to death.

You know, it is possible to hate evil deeds wherever they're performed.

Besides, even if the church is in ruins, that does not excuse the desecration of graves, Sufi or not.

[Silver Pearl]

:wasalamex


Al-Shabaab are just the definition of wrong! I don't understand how anyone can agree with the actions of these people if you see the things they say and do. Allaah yahdeekum! Not only are they putting Somalis to shame, they are insulting Islaam!


Enough time is given to these people who don't even deserve anything but education. They should retun to their Qur'aan classes and join in with the subcis rather than straying the minds of children by spreading filth! The true Heroes of Somalia are the young men who study, not these people who go around shooting innocent people and taking the maal of others, not to mention the lives of muslimeen!


Allaah yahdeekum!!

[S1aveofA11ah]

Why would you seek even 1 excuse if the act is inexcusable? When christians blow up abortion clinics I don't look for excuses I look for culpability and punishment.

Things in life and in Islam are not just black and white. My main point was TOO LOOK FOR MORE INFORMATION before running with a judgement. Who owned the Church?, Who owned the land it was built on? etc. maybe it belonged to the Muslims of the local area.

If my memory serves me right I heard of a law in the UK which states that if a building is occupied by squatters for 22 years and no-one comes forward claiming it (hence chucks them out) then it becomes the property of the squatters. A free mansion by squatting in it might sound 'inexcusable' to the ill-informed but the law states it perfectly legal and possible. Again, my point is - everything is not black and white.

The building had no-one using it for 20 years. Of course, IF these Muslims stole this building from Christains living there (or somewhere else) who owned it then this is a clear matter of a forceful wrong. Theft and oppression are haram as I'm sure you know.

Your analoogy of abortion clincs is poor in my view. Blowing up a clinc could result in the death/injury of innocent people nearby (or maybe inside). What these people did - to dismantling a deserted building - presents no life threatening dangers. I'm sure they were wise enough to check for people inside first and doubt they used tons of TNT to do the job.

I'm not saying churchs should be violated in anyway whatsoever. If I saw a person so much as put a daub of paint on a local church building I would be informing the police before you could say the word 'graffitti'!. Same for synagogues or Hindu Temples - any building for that matter. If Christains need churches to follow their religion then so be it.

You've made the act inexcusbale and it seems so clear that more evidence is required.

[S1aveofA11ah]

Is it ok to tear down every mosque that's in disrepair? If it is empty is it no longer a holy site?

He said the church was in ruins - thats a far cry from 'disrepair'!.

Of course every mosque with some wallpaper hanging off doesn't require tearing down!. The issue needs probing. This is a war torn environment - things are upside down.

For all we know the building might have been structually unsound and a potential danger hence it was 'taken out'.

Bush claimed Iraq had WMD, the papers printed these claims for the public, then he went to war on that premise. It didn't mean it was true as time prooved.

[Amadeus85]

Fishman posted this thread in good will, to show what he dislikes in the actions of those who use his religion at banners. What they have done was bad, but probably today worse things have hapenned.

[Muezzin]

He said the church was in ruins - thats a far cry from 'disrepair'!.

Of course every mosque with some wallpaper hanging off doesn't require tearing down!. The issue needs probing. This is a war torn environment - things are upside down.

For all we know the building might have been structually unsound and a potential danger hence it was 'taken out'.

And the desecration of the graves?

[noorahmad]

i think we should keep our views till we get some more information about it

[S1aveofA11ah]

And the desecration of the graves?

Well before going on to them do you agree with my point first (which is that it is wiser to get the full facts first before running with judgements and that seeking 70 excuses for your Brother/Sister is highly important in Islam)?.

[Fishman]

Well before going on to them do you agree with my point first (which is that it is wiser to get the full facts first before running with judgements and that seeking 70 excuses for your Brother/Sister is highly important in Islam)?.

:sl:
If I saw them (and they weren't trying to kill me) I would ask them why they did it. But since that is not an option, then we should us the evidence presented to us. And it was taken from an Arab website, so you can't play the conspiracy card.
:w:

[S1aveofA11ah]

:sl:
If I saw them (and they weren't trying to kill me) I would ask them why they did it. But since that is not an option, then we should us the evidence presented to us. And it was taken from an Arab website, so you can't play the conspiracy card.
:w:

I was not even directing the question to you - if you look above it was Muezzin who said "and the desecration of the graves?". I was clearly addressing him.

OK it is not an option to ask them - practically I agree, unless you go on a high risk operation to war-torn Somalia to hook up with them. However, because that is not an option right now it doesn't mean we HAVE TO use the current evidence presented to us because that in itself might be flawed. Possible - right?.

Just because it came from an Arab website does not mean its true!. What on earth criteria for truth is that!?!?!. People reading this forum must be laughing by now. Arabs are people just like anyone else - they eat, sleep, lie etc. In fact they are some of the biggest liars (note I said SOME of the biggest liars not that they are the worst liars...).

I agree completley with the poster Noorahmed who said we should hold our views until we have more evidence.

Fishman and Izyan - don't forget what the Qur'an says:-

"Ye who are conscious of God - If a fasiq comes with alarming news, make sure to verify their word, lest you afflict people out of your ignorance, and regret your action." Holy Qur'an, Surah 49:6).

You've admitted you have not got the ability to verify their (the media reporters) words yet earlier on you were afflicting these Somalians (see Quran quote above) as being evil-doers for destroying a church.

Look at the Okhlahoma bombings. The media churned out claims of it being done by Muslims. It turned out to be a home grown non-Muslim guy who did it. They later republished new claims.

Even if you don't agree with all or much of what this particular group in Somalia does in fighting etc. that doesn't mean they are automatically wrong in every single act that they do.

[Fishman]

[quote=S1aveofA11ah;1067250]

Just because it came from an Arab website does not mean its true!. What on earth criteria for truth is that!?!?!. People reading this forum must be laughing by now. Arabs are people just like anyone else - they eat, sleep, lie etc. In fact they are some of the biggest liars (note I said SOME of the biggest liars not that they are the worst liars...).

I meant that nobody can repeat the usual whitewashing tactic that 'it was all made up by evil westeners' since it comes from an Arab website that is often anti-western. I am not saying that I think Arabs are more trustworthy myself.

I agree completley with the poster Noorahmed who said we should hold our views until we have more evidence.

We in person are never going to get that evidence. If we have to hear thingsw with our own ears and see things with our own eyes, then we might as well not believe anything anybody tells us! How do you know Antarctica exists?

Fishman and Izyan - don't forget what the Qur'an says:-

"Ye who are conscious of God - If a fasiq comes with alarming news, make sure to verify their word, lest you afflict people out of your ignorance, and regret your action." Holy Qur'an, Surah 49:6).

You've admitted you have not got the ability to verify their (the media reporters) words yet earlier on you were afflicting these Somalians (see Quran quote above) as being evil-doers for destroying a church.

1. Izyan is Christian.
2. Don't you think that the news reporters have tried to verify their news? They are news reporters, it is their job to verify alarming news for us and then tell us about it if it is true. Whilst they might just all be liars, I have no reason to believe that until somebody comes up with evidence against it.

Look at the Okhlahoma bombings. The media churned out claims of it being done by Muslims. It turned out to be a home grown non-Muslim guy who did it. They later republished new claims.

In this case though, Al-Sahaab has already admitted it, along with many residents.

Even if you don't agree with all or much of what this particular group in Somalia does in fighting etc. that doesn't mean they are automatically wrong in every single act that they do.

When did I say that?
:w:

[Amadeus85]

:sl:
If I saw them (and they weren't trying to kill me) I would ask them why they did it. But since that is not an option, then we should us the evidence presented to us. And it was taken from an Arab website, so you can't play the conspiracy card.
:w:

Probably they did this because of lack of knowledge. With all due respect, that part of the world, suffering from neverending wars (I mean Somalia) isnt the perfect place to gain education (also the correct islamic one). They are poor, desperated, they havent probably left their country for all the life. The same goes with Afghanistan and Buddha statues.

[S1aveofA11ah]

[QUOTE=Fishman;1067280]

I meant that nobody can repeat the usual whitewashing tactic that 'it was all made up by evil westeners' since it comes from an Arab website that is often anti-western. I am not saying that I think Arabs are more trustworthy myself.

We in person are never going to get that evidence. If we have to hear thingsw with our own ears and see things with our own eyes, then we might as well not believe anything anybody tells us! How do you know Antarctica exists?

That is completely a false statement - only Allah knows the past, present and future. A week from now and we might hear more clearer facts and figures. Hence my example of the Okhlahoma bombing - a much more horrofiying incident to make this point hit home.

1. Izyan is Christian.
2. Don't you think that the news reporters have tried to verify their news? They are news reporters, it is their job to verify alarming news for us and then tell us about it if it is true. Whilst they might just all be liars, I have no reason to believe that until somebody comes up with evidence against it.

2. Of course they probably have. The verse from the Quran I quoted didn't say the "the fasiq should verify his own evidence".

In this case though, Al-Sahaab has already admitted it, along with many residents.


When did I say that?

- I said:

Even if you don't agree with all or much of what this particular group in Somalia does in fighting etc. that doesn't mean they are automatically wrong in every single act that they do.

I never said you said they are "automatically wrong in every single act that they do" - read what I said above ...


:w:

........

[wth1257]

You're right there are ancient Budha statues in Afghani... oh right.

The Budha statues were destroyed by the Taliban. He was referring to the initial conquest.

[Trumble]

This is the same bunch responsible for getting a 13 year rape victim stoned to death for 'adultery'. I can't say I'm surprised.

[S1aveofA11ah]

Probably they did this because of lack of knowledge. With all due respect, that part of the world, suffering from neverending wars (I mean Somalia) isnt the perfect place to gain education (also the correct islamic one). They are poor, desperated, they havent probably left their country for all the life. The same goes with Afghanistan and Buddha statues.

I say - possibly they did this because of lack of knowledge - because I'm sticking to my arguement that more concrete, clear evidence is needed before making a judgment. "Innocent until proven guilty" is the Western legal stance not "innocent until the papers say so", so your "probably" is your opinion and my opinion about your opinon is that it is an unfair, hasty, and negative claim to say that these somalians ignorantly did this act (no refelction on you). If they were fighting a jihad then they should know at least some of the rules. Just like a Muslim who prays 5 times a day - it is EXTREMELY unlikey that he/she doesn't know about some/all of it rules e.g. to have abulution before praying, face the right direction, have the intention etc. Ask any Muslim you know if he or she has come across a Muslim who prays five times a day and is ignorant of the rules I alluded to.

Likewise these Somalians in this fighting scenario would very probably know of facts such as: do not kill women/children in the fighting, destroying cattle/trees and so on. At the same time I agree it is POSSIBLE they were ignorant vandals who did this for a laugh or for provocation of others or for a myriad of other callous reasons.

The US poking its nose into a Muslim majority area like Somalia (and plenty of other places like Iraq etc.) hasn't helped with regards to your comment of:

"that part of the world, suffering from neverending wars (I mean Somalia) isnt the perfect place to gain education (also the correct islamic one). They are poor, desperated, they havent probably left their country for all the life...".

[Izyan]

I say - possibly they did this because of lack of knowledge - because I'm sticking to my arguement that more concrete, clear evidence is needed before making a judgment. "Innocent until proven guilty" is the Western legal stance not "innocent until the papers say so", so your "probably" is your opinion and my opinion about your opinon is that it is an unfair, hasty, and negative claim to say that these somalians ignorantly did this act (no refelction on you). If they were fighting a jihad then they should know at least some of the rules. Just like a Muslim who prays 5 times a day - it is EXTREMELY unlikey that he/she doesn't know about some/all of it rules e.g. to have abulution before praying, face the right direction, have the intention etc. Ask any Muslim you know if he or she has come across a Muslim who prays five times a day and is ignorant of the rules I alluded to.

Likewise these Somalians in this fighting scenario would very probably know of facts such as: do not kill women/children in the fighting, destroying cattle/trees and so on. At the same time I agree it is POSSIBLE they were ignorant vandals who did this for a laugh or for provocation of others or for a myriad of other callous reasons.

The US poking its nose into a Muslim majority area like Somalia (and plenty of other places like Iraq etc.) hasn't helped with regards to your comment of:

"that part of the world, suffering from neverending wars (I mean Somalia) isnt the perfect place to gain education (also the correct islamic one). They are poor, desperated, they havent probably left their country for all the life...".

How do you know the US is poking it's nose in Somalia's affairs? Have you witnessed this with your own eyes? 70 excuses brother.

[Izyan]

Look at the Okhlahoma bombings. The media churned out claims of it being done by Muslims. It turned out to be a home grown non-Muslim guy who did it. They later republished new claims.

I remember that bombing quite clearly and don't remember any muslims being blamed. They went after the militia groups pretty quickly. They thought it was retaliation for Ruby Ridge.

[Fishman]

:sl:

That is completely a false statement - only Allah knows the past, present and future. A week from now and we might hear more clearer facts and figures. Hence my example of the Okhlahoma bombing - a much more horrofiying incident to make this point hit home.

And until we get those facts and figures, I'm staying with the current ones. If better facts and figures come, I'll change my mind. Same with the existence of Antarctica. But by your standards, we shouldn't believe anything about antarctica until somebody says it doesn't exist.

2. Of course they probably have. The verse from the Quran I quoted didn't say the "the fasiq should verify his own evidence".

1. How do you know that the people working for Al-Jazeera are fasiqs? According to your own standards, you can't just make accusitions without them being properly verified!

I never said you said they are "automatically wrong in every single act that they do" - read what I said above ...

Ok.
:w:

[S1aveofA11ah]

How do you know the US is poking it's nose in Somalia's affairs? Have you witnessed this with your own eyes? 70 excuses brother.

Because they have been arming Ethiopians to fight Somalians Brother - common news can be researched if one wishes to spend the time.

Not everything has to be witnessed 'with my own eyes' for me to believe it thank you all the same. I believe a Sky satellite is in orbit around Earth beacause we have sky channels - I've never seen the satellite with my own eyes though.

The 70 excuses is a hadith relating to the Muslims specifically not the US army.

[S1aveofA11ah]

:sl:

And until we get those facts and figures, I'm staying with the current ones. If better facts and figures come, I'll change my mind. Same with the existence of Antarctica. But by your standards, we shouldn't believe anything about antarctica until somebody says it doesn't exist.


That was one quick u-turn. In one post you said:

"We in person are never going to get that evidence" (strong claim) and then above you indicate we might get the facts one day. So perhaps make your own standards a little solid before passing judgement on my standards - and who are you to judge?.

As far as I know Antartica exists from reports - political, geograhphical and otherwise. I've seen films of it. I've heard reports about it. I've not actually lived there recently though. I believe it exists due to an overwhelming base of varied evidence - a fair judgement one might say. It could all be a govenrment consipracy of course to make the world think that it exists.



1. How do you know that the people working for Al-Jazeera are fasiqs? According to your own standards, you can't just make accusitions without them being properly verified!


First of all I didn't even know it was reported by Al-Jazeera. Secondly therefore (by default) I'm not saying Al-Jazeera are faasiqs. I'm quoting that verse to make a point that if a FASIQ comes to you with news then what about a NON-FASIQ?.


Ok.
:w:

....

[Fishman]

Because they have been arming Ethiopians to fight Somalians Brother - common news can be researched if one wishes to spend the time.

This is also common news that you can research and find out about. I just posted the Al-Jazeera one because it was the first article about it I saw. Plus, there are other articles about other Churches and graves being demolished.

Not everything has to be witnessed 'with my own eyes' for me to believe it thank you all the same. I believe a Sky satellite is in orbit around Earth beacause we have sky channels - I've never seen the satellite with my own eyes though.

Then why don't you believe this then?
[/quote]
:w:

[S1aveofA11ah]

I remember that bombing quite clearly and don't remember any muslims being blamed. They went after the militia groups pretty quickly. They thought it was retaliation for Ruby Ridge.

Look at under Media coverage in the article below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

[S1aveofA11ah]

This is also common news that you can research and find out about. I just posted the Al-Jazeera one because it was the first article about it I saw. Plus, there are other articles about other Churches and graves being demolished.

I don't deny the demolishing of the church/graves - I never have since the thread started.


Then why don't you believe this then?

I do believe they did it - as far as media reports indicate (which do speak the truth as well as lie as we all know). I just don't go rushing (like some Muslims like to) to say they were wrong/bad in doing it until I have investigated the matter further because I follow the well-known and important principle of having a good opinion and seeking excuses for your Muslim brother rather than to make my first reaction one of "Some Somalian Muslims have destroyed a Christain place of worship! - what an evil act! - what bad Muslims those Somalians are!".

Like I have said before - who owned the church? (no-one knows - no Christains lived in the city according to one report). What was the intention behind those who destroyed it (this is my MAIN point)?. Were they doing it for some reason - military, stategic, safety (like I mentioned before maybe the building was unsafe - a 60 year building in a war-zone might be, not surprisingly, a bit shaky), were they paid by the US or other people to do this i.e. certain 'bad apples' of the larger group they operated in?. The list is long.

:w:[/QUOTE]

[wth1257]

I remember that bombing quite clearly and don't remember any muslims being blamed. They went after the militia groups pretty quickly. They thought it was retaliation for Ruby Ridge.

Many in the media did initially assume a Muslim group was involved.

Some to this day do. Although that is primairly right wing conspiracy nuts who can't believe a good old WASP boy would go and commit atrocities like those blood thirsty Muhammadans all by his lonesome.:ermm:

[S1aveofA11ah]

Many in the media did initially assume a Muslim group was involved.

Some to this day do. Although that is primairly right wing conspiracy nuts who can't believe a good old WASP boy would go and commit atrocities like those blood thirsty Muhammadans all by his lonesome.:ermm:

I think MOST of the media did wth1257 - see my Wikipedia link above.

[wth1257]

I think MOST of the media did wth1257 - see my Wikipedia link above.

please call me Will: )

[north_malaysian]

whats the problem? they took down a church which NOBODY is using, and there are NO Christians in the town, so whats the use of having it up there?

That's the same kind of excuse the Catholics used when they kicked out the muslims out of Andalucia and Sicily... imsad

[north_malaysian]

Comments:
1. So much for Somalia being a 100% Muslim country. Why would they have Churches there if it was 100% Muslim?

According to International Religious Freedom Report 2008

[pie] There also is a very small, extremely low-profile Christian community, and small numbers of followers of other religions. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2008/108391.htm[/pie]

According to Joshua Project there are several thousands Christians:

Christians Among Ethnic Groups in Somalia

- Somali (75,370)
- Amhara (51,300)
- Oromo (5,210)
- Mushunguli (480)
- Italian (415)
- French (228)
- Indo-Pakistani (52)
- British (35)
- Arab (29)
- Boni (1)

TOTAL - 133,120

http://www.joshuaproject.net/countries.php

According to Catholic website there were 8,500 Catholics in 1950, and 100 Catholics in 2004.

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dmgds.html

From wikipedia:

Christianity is a minority religion in Somalia. Most Christians in Somalia belong to the Church of the Nazarene. Likely about a hundred Catholics live in Somalia. There is one diocese for the whole country: The Diocese of Mogadishu. According to the World Christian Encyclopedia (2nd edition), Volume 1, p. 673 the Anglican Church, the Somalia Believers Fellowship, the Somalia Mennonite Mission and the Seventh-day Adventists are present in this country. The Seventh-day Adventists of Somalia belong to the East-Central Africa Division of Seventh-day Adventists. Sheikh Nur Barud stated that all Somali Christians must be killed. Since the U. N. Peacekeeping forces left in 1995, more than 500 Christians in Somalia have been murdered. There are no church buildings in Somalia. Somali Christians are despised. Paramilitary groups in Somalia have engaged in widespread looting of Christian graves. There is a Christian radio Somali Voice of New Life, based in Kenya. Professing Christians face persecution and death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Somalia

[Umar001]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

This type of news gives me much food for thought. Think about it, why would some people, according to the news report, encourage such groups if they, as written in the news report, are stoning rape victims?

Imagine you had a child, and you heard of people stoning rape victims would you encourage for such people to take power? As usual I don't think the sources are as trustworthy as they may appear. Either at their level or their source's levels.

I thus wonder why people are hasty to condemn or praise. Most of us here don't know the situation there. Some of us who may have Somali family have to also bear in mind that when we hear information it is coming from, generally, a particular point of view. For example, I hear very different stories, including praise and condemnation of the current goverment of my home country. So please let us becareful.

As for some of the actions, one needs to ask several things:

1. Do we ever think we have a correct view, Islamically speaking, after we have done some research and heard some trusted person speak on it?

2. Is it possible that there is a difference of opinion on some of the issues addressed?

Is it possible that the shrines were mosques being built on graves and people worshipping the graves, and that these brothers had read:

In the Sahih, it is recorded from 'A'isha, that Umm Salamahtold Allah's Messenger, salla Allahu 'alayhi wa salam, about a church he saw in the land of al-Habashah, and about the images that it contained. So he said, "These are the kind of people, that when a righteous man among them died, or - a righteous worshipper - they build a masjid over his grave, and they made those images in it. Those are the most evil creatures to Allah.43

Footnote 43 - Al-Bukhari, Muslim and others.

Or in the same chapter from Kitab At Tauhid:

Jundab bin 'Abdullah said, "Five days before he died, I hear the Prophet, salla Allahu 'alayhi wa salam saying: 'Surely I am innocent before Allah of having taken a khalil from among you. For surely Allah has taken me as His khalil, just as He took Ibrahim as His khalil. Yet if I were to have taken a khalil from among my ummah, then I would take Abu Bakr as a khalil. Truly those above you would take their prophets graves as masjids. So do not take the graves as masjids. I certainly have forbidden you from that'" (Muslim)

And as always Allah knows best, the above is taken from Chapter: The detriment of one who worships Allah at someone's grave, So how abouot when he worships its inhabitant? I need not say the above is right, all I am saying imagine they are trying to save their people from shirk and do what is best for their people and we are here totally removed from the situation, listening to some source we do not even know, and condemning? If they do good then may Allah reward them with Jannatul Firdaws and if they do bad may he guide us and them and forgive us and them.

Think about it, it may not be that these Muslims are just ignorant, just as we make mistakes sometimes, and even some scholars did! They can make mistakes too, with having sincere intention. Moreover some of the issues may have some scholarly opinions that we don't even know about!

I am amazed at the speed at which people condemn or praise. Maybe that's due to my ignorance, if so correct me.

Your Br.al-Habeshi

[Muezzin]

Well before going on to them do you agree with my point first (which is that it is wiser to get the full facts first before running with judgements and that seeking 70 excuses for your Brother/Sister is highly important in Islam)?.

And where would we find the full facts?

I know perfectly well about seeking 70 excuses. It's just that in my view desecrating a grave doesn't really have any, whether it's a Sufi shrine or not.

[YusufNoor]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

this MAY surprise some of you:

http://www.anwar-alawlaki.com/

Salutations to al-Shabab of Somalia
Posted (Anwar alAwlaki) in Imam Anwar's Blog on December-21-2008

We are following your recent news and it fills our hearts with immense joy. We would like to congratulate you for your victories and achievements.

Al-Shabab not only have succeeded in expanding the areas that fall under their rule but they have succeeded in implementing the sharia and giving us a living example of how we as Muslims should proceed to change our situation. The ballot has failed us but the bullet has not.
al-Shabab who are with limited resources in an impoverished country are a manifestation of what tawakul on Allah means. We see in them the meaning of “And whoever has taqwa, Allah will make a way out for him. And will provide for him from where he does not expect.” [al-Talaaq 2-3]
The university of the battlefield that al-Shabab have chosen to study at, which is teaching them lessons in honor and steadfastness will prove to be a better tarbiyyah method than the Islamic universities run by Green Zone Scholars under governments headed by pimps that teach them the fiqh of weakness and humiliation.
The university of Somalia will graduate an alumni of judges, administrators, enjoiners of good and forbiders of evil, capable and tested leaders, teachers, imams, and fighters who are hardened by the field and ready to carry on with no fear and hesitation. It will provide its graduates with the hands-on experience that the ummah greatly needs for its next stage.
But their success depends on your support. It is the responsibility of the ummah to help them with men and money.
Al-Shabab have already started a program of enforcement of law that would bring peace and security to the people. They are also applying hudud and fighting against innovations that have been around for centuries. We ask Allah to grant them success.
I would like to take this opportunity to advise my brothers to be kind and soft with the masses; to excuse them for centuries of ignorance and false beliefs; to teach first and hold responsible last. I would advise you to go by certainty and to leave doubts; to prefer forgiveness over revenge. The masses of the people are suffering from the illnesses of tribalism, ignorance, and a campaign of defamation of sharia. Therefore you need to win the hearts and minds of the people and take them back to their fitrah.
Dear brothers may Allah guide you and grant you victory. Only Allah knows that if my circumstances would have allowed I would not have hesitated in joining you and being a soldier in your ranks.
Assalamu alaykum
Your Brother
Anwar al-Awlaki

:w:

[themuffinman]

i think the desecration of the graves is the most justified thing they did to save their people from shirk. as for the chrurch and the stoning victim allah knows best

[themuffinman]

oh and i was watching the video in which the guy was being whipped for smoking hashish....they werent even whipping him hard and it really didnt look like he was in any type of pain. i

[themuffinman]

see now where is there anyhthing unislamic in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPWI-p9Kl4g

[themuffinman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7A5Ujp67lg&NR=1
subhanallah

[Muezzin]

i think the desecration of the graves is the most justified thing they did to save their people from shirk. as for the chrurch and the stoning victim allah knows best

Huh?

It's the living who committed shirk, not the dead. Destroying a grave or a tomb disrespects the dead. Leave them be. Deal with the mushriks, don't touch the graves.

[TrueStranger]

Somalis grow fearful of Islamists

Public anger at the recent stoning of a 13-year-old girl in Somalia shows the growing resentment towards radical Islamists who have gained control of much of the south and centre of the country.

Insurgents from the militant group al-Shabab are seen as authoritarian and unaccountable - unlike the Islamists who were in control of the capital, Mogadishu, in 2006.

Asha Ibrahim Dhuhulow was stoned to death for adultery in the southern port city of Kismayo, which was taken control by al-Shabab and its allies in August.
Her 62-year-old aunt told the BBC that the teenager had in fact been raped by three armed men - and she took Asha to the police station to report it.

Several days later, after two suspects had been arrested, she was asked to return to the station with her niece.

To her surprise the girl was taken into custody too.

"I tried to speak to the police but they said they were not talking," she said.

Three days later, after Asha had been tried in an Islamist court, she was stoned to death.

"They said that the girl had chatted up these men and had confessed to adultery," she said.

But the aunt said the authorities clearly failed to notice her age, how mentally disturbed she was by her experience, or her history of mental illness.

"She was only 13 years old. I have got her card from Hagarder refugee camp which has her age on it. She might have looked a bit older, but you could tell her age by talking to her," she said.

Law and order

Other critics point to the lack of lawyers, witnesses or appeal process.

The Islamists were reported to have announced their verdict the day before the stoning from cars with loudspeakers.

But Asha's aunt was not informed of the court's decision - despite repeated visits to the police station.

"I was not even told that she was to be killed, I just heard it from people after it happened.

"I don't know what crime she committed other than being raped; and I was not even allowed to see her body," she said.

Al-Shabab in Kismayo has refused attempts by the BBC to discuss the stoning.

It is almost two years since the Ethiopian-backed interim government ousted the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC), which had ruled much of Somalia for nearly six months.

In 2006, the UIC was generally welcomed for the law and order it brought to a country bedevilled by more than a decade of civil war and clan fighting.

UIC fighters launched an insurgency following what many Somalis regarded as an Ethiopian invasion. Its youth and military wing, al-Shabab, gained notoriety for its determination, despite its much smaller numbers.

Fear

The group, which is on the US terror list and is said to have links with al-Qaeda, has since split from the UIC, angered by its current peace negotiations with the government.

It does not work against the UIC, but it favours co-operating with other groups including:

• The Kaanboni, led by Hassan Turki, who is also on the US terror list

• The Islamic Front, a new group about which very little is known.

For example, since mid-August, when they captured the Lower Jubba, Middle Jubba and Gedo regions from local clan militia, they now share the administration with existing officials.

According to well-informed sources in the regions who requested anonymity, these groups instil fear among the local population.

"You keep quiet and follow the commands of the Islamists, or emigrate to neighbouring countries, or simply die and leave this world," one of them said.

In Mogadishu, al-Shabab insurgents are said to move around the city freely - often in vehicles captured from the government.

The government forces and troops from Ethiopia and the African Union are limited to the airport, port, presidential palace and a few military camps.

Besides the central city of Baidoa, these are the only areas government forces now hold.

When they attempt to move between these points, they are often ambushed by the Islamists.

A few weeks ago, al-Shabab held a military parade in a former military camp in the capital, where they carried out a public flogging of two men sentenced by an Islamic court over a family dispute.

The flogging took place in front of crowds of local residents, and was orchestrated to show just who is running the show.

Death threats

Al-Shabab insurgents have a countrywide organisation, threatening anyone they perceive to be supporting the government with text messages.
One human rights activist outside the capital told the BBC that he was ordered to close down his offices.

He said he began receiving quite frequent threatening messages on his mobile. So he stopped using his phone.

Eventually a relative brought him a stern message from al-Shabab. It said if he did not stop his work, he would be killed.

As the government has lost ground over the last five months, the number of attacks on civil society activists, local non-governmental workers and international aid workers has increased.

Some have been shot dead point-blank; others have been kidnapped and are still missing.

Most suspect that those behind the attacks are al-Shabab insurgents, even if no-one dares say so publicly.

In the central Hiiran region, where most towns have seen a presence of al-Shabab and the more moderate UIC since July, people have been more vocal in their complaints.

'Not Islamic'

A former army engineer and political activist detailed examples of those targeted because of their association with Ethiopia or the West.

"They have killed 17 civilians without reason or due process including two teachers and a well-known traditional elder, Da'ar Hirsi Hooshow," the man, whose name is being withheld for his own safety, told the BBC.

The teachers worked at a school that taught English and employed foreign staff.

The shooting of Mr Hooshow, who was known to be holding talks with Ethiopian troops before he was shot dead on 10 October, prompted angry scenes in Beled Weyne.

Town residents stoned al-Shabab centres believing them to be behind the killing.

And while the UIC may share al-Shabab's aim to see the Ethiopians leave the country, it has distanced itself from its former allies.

On Monday, UIC authorities in Beled Weyne arrested nine al-Shabab members for allegedly kidnapping an official over the weekend

"We didn't ask them to do any operation at all," Hiiran's al-Shabab Chairman Sheikh Ali Dheere told the BBC.

"They are wrong if they committed a kidnap. They will have to be punished under Sharia law," he said.

But many fear that law and order is not al-Shabab's priority.

"They are holding this region with the barrel of the gun, and it has nothing to do with Islam," the Hiiran political activist said.

Sources- BBC

[themuffinman]

Huh?

It's the living who committed shirk, not the dead. Destroying a grave or a tomb disrespects the dead. Leave them be. Deal with the mushriks, don't touch the graves.

graves shouldnt be marked as shrines, and if they were pios and practicing muslims they would have condemed their graves being worshipped. you have to get rid of the markings and shrines on the graves to prevent people from falling into shirk again...

[Wilma_Hum]

graves shouldnt be marked as shrines, and if they were pios and practicing muslims they would have condemed their graves being worshipped. you have to get rid of the markings and shrines on the graves to prevent people from falling into shirk again...

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seams to justify forcing one beliefs on another.

I understand this to say you not only have the right, but you have the obligation to remove something I place on a grave.

Am I wrong?

[themuffinman]

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seams to justify forcing one beliefs on another.

I understand this to say you not only have the right, but you have the obligation to remove something I place on a grave.

Am I wrong?

you have to look at why those graves were made into shrines. we dont kno why it was done in somalia but usually its because the people who lay there were pious and practicing muslims and the people around them reveared them so after they died they setup shrines to honor them, which is against islam. there not imposing their beleifs on other people by destroying the graves they are preventing MUSLIMs from going astray

[Fishman]

there not imposing their beleifs on other people by destroying the graves they are preventing MUSLIMs from going astray

:sl:
Uh, one man's Haq is another man's Kufr. Not everybody wants to follow your sect. Infact, since you have only got a majority in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and America, almost nobody does.

Two questions:
1. Would you demolish Shia Mosques?

2. What do you think about Shias who want to persecute Salafi Sunnis in the same way as you want to do to 'Sufi' Sunnis? They use the same excuses!
:w:

[Wilma_Hum]

you have to look at why those graves were made into shrines. we dont kno why it was done in somalia but usually its because the people who lay there were pious and practicing muslims and the people around them reveared them so after they died they setup shrines to honor them, which is against islam. there not imposing their beleifs on other people by destroying the graves they are preventing MUSLIMs from going astray

But still, you seam to say that what you believe gives you the right to destroy what some one has done to honour someone.

I don't know anything about Somali, but if you removed my flowers form my grandfathers grave, things would turn unplesent, to say the least.

And the fact that my grandfather was not a Muslim has nothing to do with it.

[Follower]

Yusof-Noor- Did you read some of the comments after that blog post? Disgusting.

The ballot has failed us but the bullet has not. UUgghh!! Does this mean to watch out if you are a not only Christian but a Sufi, Quran only Muslim, too?

[themuffinman]

i dont know where these "sects" come in but i try and follow only the guidelines of the quran and sunnah which is islam so if these people are following islam they should adhere to the quran: (O Prophet) say (to the Polytheists): "Call upon other (gods) whom ye fancy besides Allah; they have no power, - not even the weight of an atom - in the heavens or on earth; no (sort of) share have they therein, nor is any of them a helper of Allah." (Quran: Saba, 3)

O Prophet) say (to the Polytheists): "Call on those - besides Him -whom ye fancy: they have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them." (Quran: Bani Israel, 6)

"Worship ye that which ye have (yourselves) carved?" (Quran: Saffat, 3).

Prophet Mohammad even at his death bed warned Muslims not to imitate Jews and Christians who earlier had venerated the graves of their prophets and saints (Sahih Muslim, Mishkat).

as for the demolition of shia mosques....well i dont beleive there muslim and to them their faith and to me mine.

[Fishman]

as for the demolition of shia mosques....well i dont beleive there muslim and to them their faith and to me mine.

:sl:
You seem to like to call us polytheists and innovators, but you won't leave us to our own...

EDIT: this doesn't mean I'm a Shia, I'm just comparing how you treat them with how you treat others.
:w:

[YusufNoor]

:sl:
You seem to like to call us polytheists and innovators, but you won't leave us to our own...
:w:

:sl:

FishBro,

please tell me that you are not a Shia!

Yusof-Noor- Did you read some of the comments after that blog post? Disgusting.

actually, i did. i have NO IDEA what to make of the Somali situation. the Somalis [that i know] don't know what the hell is going on there, so how am i to know? i WAS totally surprised by what Br Anwar wrote. i then saw this thread, and then posted his comments.

the Somalis i know HERE were thrilled when the Courts took over, not so thrilled about giving up the ghat or their soccer, though. IF the Somalis THERE were thrilled, one ASSUMES they would have kept them in power....

but then again, who put the Ethiopians up to invading a foreign country? i mean who do they think they are? Russia? America?

it would be nice to know the real story!

:w:

[Fishman]

please tell me that you are not a Shia!

:w:

:sl:
No. I'm saying that they leave the Shia alone, but not the 'Sufi' Sunnis.
:w:

[themuffinman]

the thing about sufi islam is that it originated with pure intention. the people liked to alot of dhikr and i dont see anything wrong with that, they had alot of love for allah but that isnt the case for "modern" sufi, they have even brought innovations into their own so called "sect"

[czgibson]

Greetings,

see now where is there anyhthing unislamic in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPWI-p9Kl4g

That just looks like a bunch of guys having fun destroying things.

Peace

[muslimahCA]

Because they have been arming Ethiopians to fight Somalians Brother - common news can be researched if one wishes to spend the time.

Not everything has to be witnessed 'with my own eyes' for me to believe it thank you all the same. I believe a Sky satellite is in orbit around Earth beacause we have sky channels - I've never seen the satellite with my own eyes though.

The 70 excuses is a hadith relating to the Muslims specifically not the US army.

I definetly agree with everything you are saying, as a somali from day one of leaving somalia and hearing about these different governments coming in left and right and no hope of stablity in sight one thing we are sure of is the American backed Ethiopian troops.

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/viewArticle/19831

[muslimahCA]

:sl:
No. I'm saying that they leave the Shia alone, but not the 'Sufi' Sunnis.
:w:

Wait, who said their is even shia's in somalia? There is a very low percentage of sufi's to begin with let alone shia's.

As for the graves and churches, i just want to comment on them by saying that I have always heard that people would come to them across the country and worship there. Someone let me know if any of the shabah may peace and blessing be on them would allow such a obvious bidah and wallahu alam maybe even shirk!

As for churches, i agree its totally wrong and it could be on their part of little education about the deen. I am not making excuses for them but after decades of darn near slavery with the Italians little care is in my heart.


Plus, remember that somali's and NON somali's from all over the world are residing in somalia now because of the Al Shabab so its not only the people born and raised in somalia are setting up this system.

I have faith and have given them my 70 excuses, if Somalia is all we have in gaining a real muslim country run by Islamic law, we as muslims are obligated to support our brothers and sister in establishing this.

May Allah make this successful for all of us guiding them to see the truth and protect them from evil and let it be a leader for the ummah to follow.

['Abd-al Latif]

It is a sad state of affairs that errant Muslims have raised graves, mounted shrines over them, and exalted the dead as was the practise of the pagans before the Call to Islam. Today, Muslims have built huge shrines over the graves of some of the Ahlel Bayt, Sahabah, the righteous people, and others. This has led to the inevitable result of mimicking pagans who worship the dead, either directly or indirectly. There is therefore a necessity to raze to the ground these pagan shrines and to level the graves, as was the Sunnah.

Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid says:

“Islam forbids erecting structures over graves, and commands that any such structures should be knocked down. But it is permitted to put a marker on the grave so that the family and friends of the deceased will know where it is (and nothing more than this). However, this marker should not be a structure or anything else that is not allowed in sharee’ah.”

With regard to the prohibition on erecting structures over graves, it was narrated that Jabir said: “The Messenger of Allah forbade plastering over graves, sitting on them and erecting structures over them.” (Sahih Muslim, 970)

Al-Shawkani said:

“The phrase ‘erecting structures over them’ indicates that it is Haram to build anything over a grave.”

Al-Shafi’i said:

“I saw the imams in Makkah ordering that what had been built (over graves) was to be knocked down.”

Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid says:

“With regard to the command to knock down structures that have been built over graves, that is proven in the Sunnah.”

It was narrated that Abu’l-Hayaaj al-Asadi said: Ali ibn Abi Talib said to me: “Shall I not send you on the same mission as the Messenger of Allah sent me? Do not leave any statue without erasing it, and do not leave any raised grave without leveling it.” (Sahih Muslim, 969).

Al-Shawkani said:

“The words ‘do not leave any raised grave without leveling it’ means that the Sunnah is that a grave should not be made very high, and there should be no differentiation between those who were virtuous and those who were not virtuous.”

Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid says:

“Making a grave higher than the amount that is permitted is Haram…The making graves high that is mentioned in the Hadith especially includes the domes and shrines that are built over graves, and the taking of graves as places of worship. The Prophet cursed those who do that (refer to Nayl al-Awtaar, 4/130).”

All of these pagan shrines should be torn down and removed. Instead, all of the dead should have flat and level graves equal to everyone else. This is the faith of Islam. For the one who cannot accept this, he has deviated away from the path of the Hanif (i.e. the monotheists) and inclined himself towards the Mushriks.

http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/shirk/raze-shrines

[themuffinman]

But still, you seam to say that what you believe gives you the right to destroy what some one has done to honour someone.

I don't know anything about Somali, but if you removed my flowers form my grandfathers grave, things would turn unplesent, to say the least.

And the fact that my grandfather was not a Muslim has nothing to do with it.

but u mis the point...there not honoring them they using them to worship, hence it is a form of idolatry... flowers on a grave and worshipping a grave is HUGE difference

[Follower]

Who are you?! LOL!! to say the "idols" must be destroyed!!

Gees, I thought Muslims were worshipping a black stone. There may be some illiterate Muslims that still do!!

That is one fault I find with many Muslims. They seem so concerned with outward actions and appearances and not what is in people hearts.

They are also very concerned about punishing people that they think are at fault. Are you a better judge then GOD? Judge not!! Show some tolerance!!

John 8
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

GOD's Blessings to all of you!! Praise GOD for sending Jesus as a gift of grace to each and everyone of us!!

[CROME]

:sl:
Uh, one man's Haq is another man's Kufr. Not everybody wants to follow your sect. Infact, since you have only got a majority in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and America, almost nobody does.

Two questions:
1. Would you demolish Shia Mosques?

2. What do you think about Shias who want to persecute Salafi Sunnis in the same way as you want to do to 'Sufi' Sunnis? They use the same excuses!
:w:

Funny how muffinman has given some proof for what he mentioned, where as you have said what you think and expect us to just simply blindfollow what you said. True one man's Haq is another man's kufr, but we all know that there is only one "Haq" which is the Qur'an and Sunnah (which by the way you have not once quoted).

[themuffinman]

Who are you?! LOL!! to say the "idols" must be destroyed!!

Gees, I thought Muslims were worshipping a black stone. There may be some illiterate Muslims that still do!!

That is one fault I find with many Muslims. They seem so concerned with outward actions and appearances and not what is in people hearts.

They are also very concerned about punishing people that they think are at fault. Are you a better judge then GOD? Judge not!! Show some tolerance!!

John 8
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

GOD's Blessings to all of you!! Praise GOD for sending Jesus as a gift of grace to each and everyone of us!!

LOL the same could be said WHO WAS THE PROPHET TO ESTROY THE IDOLS IN MECCA??? of course im not even fit to wipe the dust off prophet muhammed feet but if you call yourself muslims then we have no business having idols around, do muslims go around breaking idols of hindus? no because that is there religion and there so far off base were not threatened by them them that they will corrupt our faith but it is the muslims who incorporate parts of hinduism into islam and leading other muslims astray

['Abd-al Latif]

Who are you?! LOL!! to say the "idols" must be destroyed!!

Gees, I thought Muslims were worshipping a black stone. There may be some illiterate Muslims that still do!!

That is one fault I find with many Muslims. They seem so concerned with outward actions and appearances and not what is in people hearts.

They are also very concerned about punishing people that they think are at fault. Are you a better judge then GOD? Judge not!! Show some tolerance!!

John 8
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

GOD's Blessings to all of you!! Praise GOD for sending Jesus as a gift of grace to each and everyone of us!!

Punishment's are to be carried out when one leaves an obligation, and in this case the obligation is stay away from acts of polythiesm and disbelief, which is the worst thing one can do.

As for muslims "worshipping" the black-stone, or for a muslim to not care about the inward action couldn't be further from the truth. You clearly don't know the simple basics of Islam so why speak of something which you don't know?? Browse through the different sections of the forum and you're in for a surprise to see who muslims worship and what actions of the heart mean to a muslim so until then my advise is for you to remain silent since you have no facts except mere personal opinions and wishful thinking which do not reflect on neither Islam nor Muslims.

But as for jesus, the slave of Allah, this is what will be said in his own words on the day of judgement, or - and correct me if i'm wrong - I think you christians call it dooms day.

Allah says:

“And (remember) when God (Allah) will say (on the Day of Resurrection): 'O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: “Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?”’ He will say: ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner‑self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All‑Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).

‘Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: “Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things’”

[al-Maa'idah 5:117]

[YusufNoor]

Who are you?! LOL!! to say the "idols" must be destroyed!!

Gees, I thought Muslims were worshipping a black stone. There may be some illiterate Muslims that still do!!

this is a common misperception, here's an Hadeeth about Omar ibn Al Kitaab [the 2nd Kalipha]:

Book 007, Number 2914:

Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: By Allah. I am kissing with full consciousness of the fact that you are a stone and that you can neither do any harm nor good; and if I had not seen Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you. The rest of the hadith is the same.

source:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...m/007.smt.html

additional info:

Thank you for your question.


Your main point is that Islam encourages idolatry. Nothing could be farther from the truth; because no other religion opposes idolatry as vehemently as Islam.

As for the Black Stone in the Kabah, it is not an idol; and nobody worships it. It is simply 'a black stone' and its chief use in the Kabah during pilgrimage is as a marking stone.


Do Christians worship the picture of Mary or the Cross behind the Altar? These are but symbols. Yet, the Black Stone does not even have that status.

Muslims honor the ten commandments just like Christians. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) never claimed that he came to teach a new religion. He taught that his mission was to restore the religion of all prophets of God, including Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all) to its pristine purity.


This basically means that we humans must not worship any god other than the One and Only Creator of the universe. You know the first of all commandments, according to Jesus is:


"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.." (Mark 12: 29)


Here he was actually reiterating the First Commandment of the Torah as revealed to Moses:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.." (Deuteronomy 6:4)


The Quran repeatedly and most emphatically states that God is One and Only. You can read this concrete Islamic concept in the Quran:


*{Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.}* (Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4)


Before I explain at length how Muslims view the Black Stone, let me say that it can never be considered as an idol, as it is not the likeness of anything living, and no worship is rendered to it.


First of all, the Black Stone is not mentioned in the Quran. It is only a marker at which point the tawaf (the circumambulation of the Kabah) starts and ends. The traditions speak about kissing or touching the Stone during tawaf; but this is not compulsory. Our scholars are unanimous that waving in that direction is enough.


It is reported that Umar ibn al-Khattab drew near the Black Stone and kissed it, saying:

"No doubt, I know that you are only a stone and can neither benefit nor harm anyone. If I had not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you." (Al-Bukhari)


No Muslim has any doubt about the fact that the Black Stone is not to be worshipped or regarded as anything but a marker. At Hajj time, the whole area around the Kabah is so crowded that most pilgrims cannot even see it. And many pilgrims perform tawaf not on the ground floor of the Kabah, but on the floors above.


This means that they cannot see the Black Stone at all. They start tawaf and end it at the place where there is a marking line on the floor. And, nobody can ever say that their Hajj is incomplete for that reason.


Many critics of Islam make much of this stone, trying to find some sort of justification for their own polytheistic practices. But the founding principle of Islam is the concept of the Oneness of God: la ilaha illa Allah; there is no one that deserves worship or obeisance except the One and Only God.


So, Muslims do not worship anybody--or anything--other than Allah, Almighty. This was the teaching of all prophets of God from Adam to the Last Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

source:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE

That is one fault I find with many Muslims. They seem so concerned with outward actions and appearances and not what is in people hearts.

actually, unlike Christians who allow themselves to practice pagan polytheism, Muslims are required to obey Allah Ta' Aala in outward from AS WELL AS inward form!

They are also very concerned about punishing people that they think are at fault. Are you a better judge then GOD? Judge not!! Show some tolerance!!

John 8
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

GOD's Blessings to all of you!! Praise GOD for sending Jesus as a gift of grace to each and everyone of us!!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

we clearly see from the Hadeeth on Omar[May Allah be pleased with him], that the black stone is nothing but "a stone and that [it] can neither do any harm nor good." there MAY BE some "illiterate Muslims" who do worship the stone, however, we know that they are in error. Islam isn't like the "Christianity" of today where followers can worship crosses and statues and make anyone they want to a god!

i LOVE the example that you used about Jesus[May the Mercy and Blessings of Allah be upon him]! in fact it one of my FAVORITE stories from the "New Testament1" HOWEVER, as you may or may not know, IT ISN'T REALLY FROM THE BIBLE!!! imagine that, just like Christians have no authentic sources from Jesus, the son of Mary [May the Mercy and Blessings of Allah be upon him], for their acts of worship, and despite the FACT that there are no contemporary sources for what they call the New Testament, EVEN "CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS PLACE THIS PASSAGE FROM A MUCH LATER TIME PERIOD!"

Jesus Forgives a Woman Taken in Adultery

This story, beloved for its revelation of God's mercy toward sinners, is found only in John. It was almost certainly not part of John's original Gospel. The NIV separates this passage off from the rest of the Gospel with the note, "The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53--8:11." That is, the earliest Greek manuscripts, the earliest translations and the earliest church fathers all lack reference to this story. Furthermore, some manuscripts place it at other points within John (after 7:36, 7:44 or 21:25), others include it in the Gospel of Luke (placing it after Luke 21:38), and many manuscripts have marks that indicate the scribes "were aware that it lacked satisfactory credentials" (Metzger 1994:189). Furthermore, it contains many expressions that are more like those in the Synoptic Gospels than those in John.

it's STILL a nice story, though!

:w:

[Follower]

Sorry for misunderstanding - Yes I now know at least for past 4 years that Muslims do not worship Kaaba- It appears as such to the unlearned.

How do you know that the people are worshipping the graves and it is not just appearing to you as such?

The idols in the Kaaba where not atached to human as the graves are. Destroying idols not as hurtful as destroying graves.

[themuffinman]

Sorry for misunderstanding - Yes I now know at least for past 4 years that Muslims do not worship Kaaba- It appears as such to the unlearned.

How do you know that the people are worshipping the graves and it is not just appearing to you as such?

The idols in the Kaaba where not atached to human as the graves are. Destroying idols not as hurtful as destroying graves.

even if they are not worshipping the graves, god has given all muslims a point of focus for all muslims to turn to when they pray to him so why leave that and setup your own?

[Follower]

YusufNoor - yah, yah, yah, caught me. LOL!!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=7&version=31

LOL!! How about this one?

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Basically the same message.

Don't you wonder what Jesus was writing in the ground with His finger!?!

[Muezzin]

Evidently, discussion of the original subject has been exhausted.

Thread closed.