Why am I "good"?

[Karina]

(Karina's gone all philosophical again...!) :statisfie

.................................................. ...............................................

I am far from perfect, but I imagine there is no human being on this earth who can claim to be so.... (but then, what is "perfect"?).

Anyway. I am not perfect, but I am not bad.

Ok. I sometimes ignore my phone if it's someone I don't want to talk to. I enjoy a glass of wine with my meal, which in many people's eyes is "wrong". I am occaisionally bad-tempered with those who don't deserve it when I've had a terrible day. I give to charity, but I don't give enough and I do not make enough time to help out in my community. There's probably more.

But other than these things, I am not a "bad" person.

I do not steal, do not cause physical pain, I do not think bad of others, in fact I always put myself in other peoples shoes. Always. Some would say too much.

I love my family and my friends and I always make time for them all.

I abide dishonesty, manipulation and selfishness.

I hate the media for its control.. brainwashing... over the way we think and behave.

I strive to be a good person and accept and work on my faults.

But. Why, if I have no particular religion and do not believe in a specific superior being, am I "good" and not "bad" (whatever they are!).

I once spoke to a Muslim gentleman who told me that I could not be a good person without Allah and that there was nothing other than the law (if I was caught) stopping me from causing hurt, stealing, even murder. I said that yes there was, I have a good conscience and an innate instinct to be kind to my fellow human beings.

Perhaps this is the nature/nurture debate and nothing to do with God. Perhaps God has decided to create me as a nice person hoping I'll come round to religion at some point!
Perhaps goodness is something that can shine through without the influence of the almighty?

Why am I "good"?

Thoughts please.

:)

[Musaafirah]

Right. This is a tough one.
From your post you're saying that maybe religion has nothing to do with a person being good and it's just the fact that you have an innate tendency to do good right?
What about those people who are bad? Do they have and innate tendency to be 'bad' time and time again?
How were you brought up? I mean, the way in which your upbringing plays a pivotal role on how you are no doubt.
Then again, the definition of good and bad may differ amongst society, I mean the example of drinking wine, religiously and culturally would be seen as a 'bad' thing in my household.
Oh, I'm confuzzled.

[*charisma*]

Hey,

If you want to consider religion into this aspect of your views, the only thing we as worshipers of a religion can tell you is what we see (ie. your actions) and tell you what is right and wrong based on the moral codes of our own religion, as that is what we are given to judge, and your intentions are with the Creator. The definitions of what good and bad is differs with each individual; however in Islam, every case is taken into account and our code of morals is universal to every Muslim (e.g. Alcohol is prohibited and should be considered bad for every individual, even if all he only wants to drink it sparingly and not for purposes of getting drunk).

As Muslims, we don't ask ourselves if we're good people, we ask ourselves if we're good worshipers, slaves, servants to our Lord, because everything should be done for His sake and not for show or for anyone else. You may be a good person, in a secular views, but not a good worshiper.

Peace.

[wth1257]

(Karina's gone all philosophical again...!) :statisfie

.................................................. ...............................................

I am far from perfect, but I imagine there is no human being on this earth who can claim to be so.... (but then, what is "perfect"?).

Anyway. I am not perfect, but I am not bad.

Ok. I sometimes ignore my phone if it's someone I don't want to talk to. I enjoy a glass of wine with my meal, which in many people's eyes is "wrong". I am occaisionally bad-tempered with those who don't deserve it when I've had a terrible day. I give to charity, but I don't give enough and I do not make enough time to help out in my community. There's probably more.

But other than these things, I am not a "bad" person.

I do not steal, do not cause physical pain, I do not think bad of others, in fact I always put myself in other peoples shoes. Always. Some would say too much.

I love my family and my friends and I always make time for them all.

I abide dishonesty, manipulation and selfishness.

I hate the media for its control.. brainwashing... over the way we think and behave.

I strive to be a good person and accept and work on my faults.

But. Why, if I have no particular religion and do not believe in a specific superior being, am I "good" and not "bad" (whatever they are!).

I once spoke to a Muslim gentleman who told me that I could not be a good person without Allah and that there was nothing other than the law (if I was caught) stopping me from causing hurt, stealing, even murder. I said that yes there was, I have a good conscience and an innate instinct to be kind to my fellow human beings.

Perhaps this is the nature/nurture debate and nothing to do with God. Perhaps God has decided to create me as a nice person hoping I'll come round to religion at some point!
Perhaps goodness is something that can shine through without the influence of the almighty?

Why am I "good"?

Thoughts please.

:)

:?

If you do not define what you mean by "good" or "bad" there is not much anyone can say.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Keltoi]

Embracing a religion doesn't make one "good", meaning moral. The morality of an athiest and the morality of a person of faith are usually not that far apart. The difference is what we see as the source of that morality. An athiest would suggest the source of morality is the brain. A person of faith would suggest the source of morality is God. So a person can be "good" without being faithful to a religion. Being "good" and being "saved" are not the same thing however.

[- Qatada -]

Remember karina, if we're going philosophical - then one can argue that you're only good due to the principles set out by God. By people measuring you by them - they can accept that as a form of goodness and therefore say that you're good.

just something to think about :)


In Islam, if you do good - you get rewarded with good depending on who you wanted it from. If you do good for God and for the benefit of humanity - you will get your reward from God and maybe the benefit will be seen in your life, or even after. If you do good for this life only, then thats the only limited good you'll get (which isn't everlasting.) That's why humans want more, they want to reach a higher level of goodness - so they turn to God, hoping for an everlasting source of goodness for the limited good efforts they did in this life, so God/Allah appreciates that and will reward even more, because He is the Most Merciful, and appreciates what His servants do for His sake.




Peace.

[AntiKarateKid]

(Karina's gone all philosophical again...!) :statisfie

.................................................. ...............................................

I am far from perfect, but I imagine there is no human being on this earth who can claim to be so.... (but then, what is "perfect"?).

Anyway. I am not perfect, but I am not bad.

Ok. I sometimes ignore my phone if it's someone I don't want to talk to. I enjoy a glass of wine with my meal, which in many people's eyes is "wrong". I am occaisionally bad-tempered with those who don't deserve it when I've had a terrible day. I give to charity, but I don't give enough and I do not make enough time to help out in my community. There's probably more.

But other than these things, I am not a "bad" person.

I do not steal, do not cause physical pain, I do not think bad of others, in fact I always put myself in other peoples shoes. Always. Some would say too much.

I love my family and my friends and I always make time for them all.

I abide dishonesty, manipulation and selfishness.

I hate the media for its control.. brainwashing... over the way we think and behave.

I strive to be a good person and accept and work on my faults.

But. Why, if I have no particular religion and do not believe in a specific superior being, am I "good" and not "bad" (whatever they are!).

I once spoke to a Muslim gentleman who told me that I could not be a good person without Allah and that there was nothing other than the law (if I was caught) stopping me from causing hurt, stealing, even murder. I said that yes there was, I have a good conscience and an innate instinct to be kind to my fellow human beings.

Perhaps this is the nature/nurture debate and nothing to do with God. Perhaps God has decided to create me as a nice person hoping I'll come round to religion at some point!
Perhaps goodness is something that can shine through without the influence of the almighty?

Why am I "good"?

Thoughts please.

:)

Are you not aware of the Islamic concept of fitrah? Allah has given everyone the ability to do "good." The purpose of religion is to refine and channel this good into its purest form.

If you belive that Allah has given you good fitrah, like you claim right now, then your responsibility is to turn toward him and take the advice of the Prophets who were the BEST of mankind and to emulate them in every way.

If you do not do this, then you are rejecting what is good and accepting waht is wrong. You fail to live up to your responsibility as a human and are forever cast adrift,obeying your personal desires and convictions, thinking that your actions are "good", though they disobey Allah, who is the ultimate source of good.

The fact that you have spoken with Muslims and are on this forum i because Allah wishes for you to become the best you can be.

Basically, by yourself, you will never find out what it fully means to be good. Only Allah can tell you that. Only the Prophets were that. Not you. So be upright and follow the true path of Allah.

Quran 2:11-13
When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.

Sound familiar? These verses are for you, and people who are like you. You reject your creator and the true criteria for good, and make up your own. You call yourself good and lead others astray in the process. You are presented with the truth countless times and obstately refuse to follow all the laws that Allah gave you to make you become truly good.

Every action is judged by its intention. Your intention is to rebel against your creator, do good deeds for yourself and then say you are doing it because "it is good." WHen all the while you are just doing it so that you feel happy. Your intentions will what takes you down.

[AntiKarateKid]

Embracing a religion doesn't make one "good", meaning moral. The morality of an athiest and the morality of a person of faith are usually not that far apart. The difference is what we see as the source of that morality. An athiest would suggest the source of morality is the brain. A person of faith would suggest the source of morality is God. So a person can be "good" without being faithful to a religion. Being "good" and being "saved" are not the same thing however.

I disagree. Embracing a religion turns your unrefined fitrah into a pure form. Thereby allowing you to ACTUALLY be good.

Where was the last atheist Prophet. Has there existed ANYONE een closely moral to Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad (PBUAOT). They were the best of the best.

If you do not find the right path, you may find that what you thought was good , and you fought for, was in fact evil. Take the supporters of Gay marriage, untamed genetic manipulation, idol worshippers, etc.

You will never draw closer to God and be truly "good" without obeying the example of is Prophets.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

how can you be good when your not asking for forgiveness from God even though you transgress him in hideous ways everyday?


i remind myself before you, and i assure you i never think of myself as good..... even though i do ask forgiveness many times...

[Keltoi]

I disagree. Embracing a religion turns your unrefined fitrah into a pure form. Thereby allowing you to ACTUALLY be good.

Where was the last atheist Prophet. Has there existed ANYONE een closely moral to Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad (PBUAOT). They were the best of the best.

If you do not find the right path, you may find that what you thought was good , and you fought for, was in fact evil. Take the supporters of Gay marriage, untamed genetic manipulation, idol worshippers, etc.

You will never draw closer to God and be truly "good" without obeying the example of is Prophets.

Well, I don't think we are that far apart on that. I meant that a person without faith can still do the right things morally. Meaning give to the poor, save another's life, treat others with respect, etc. Being righteous in the "eyes" of God is a different matter altogether. Although being moral is a heck of a good start, and is probably closer to God than many who call themselves people of faith.

[Najm]

Peace. I saw a different perspective on your post. It revolves around deciding, what is "good" and what is "bad"?

I strive to be a good person and accept and work on my faults.

Well depends on what you "decide" what is good, and what is fault!!! If good means to murder someone then you must strive to kill someone until you can become "a good person".

I once spoke to a Muslim gentleman who told me that I could not be a good person without Allah and that there was nothing other than the law (if I was caught) stopping me from causing hurt, stealing, even murder. I said that yes there was, I have a good conscience and an innate instinct to be kind to my fellow human beings.

His right! If there was no laws in the world then you would be free to do what u like. You would decide what was good for you and what was bad. So if one society sets no laws, then what we are saying is, everybody has a good conscience, and nobody can ever be evil, whether they steal, murder, drink, bombs everything. Everybody is perfect!!!!

On the other hand, if a society makes laws that stealing, murdering, drinking, bombs everything is good. And worshipping, giving charity, being honest, unselfish are bad. Then your going to end up in jail all your life cause in this society you have "an evil conscience!!! Or you will do all the good things in this society that you have been brought up with hence that's you "innate instinct" >>> meaning that the environment has an effect on you!!!

Perhaps goodness is something that can shine through without the influence of the almighty?

God has created you, he gives and takes, he judges in accordance to your actions and intentions, on the ability he has given you. Everybody has the same aspect of fitrah (natural deposition) one of them is to Worship and/or to follow and/or to obey.

Hence naturally you are influenced!! However it maybe be your influenced by someone or some thing, like a footballer, or prime minister, or the Sun or God etc. You have the choice of worshipping to whoever, thus choosing the source of goodness you want from them. By choosing God to worship, your choosing the best form of goodness, and you can channel that goodness to the most purest form.

Why am I "good"?

Society's laws are made by someone and written down somewhere. Societies laws change though time. In uk, 1900 homosexuality was a crime and 1950s is decriminalised. In Islam homosexuality is always a crime etc

All in all, a Societies idea of good and evil change through time. So your only "good" based on the beliefs you have or just measured against the law of the land.

For Muslims the measurement of good and evil is given to us 1400 years ago, and these remain constant. This is found in the Quran and Hadith

Post written while feeling sleepy, may need editing
p.s. post is generalized, and doesnt apply directly to YOU!!

Peace be to you

[syilla]

Good enough...is not enough when becoming a muslim.
And who are judging us that we are good? Or are we imagining ourselves that we are good but others see us not. But how good is good when human becomes the judges?

hmm....

[Aqeel Ahmed]

:sl:
Yes if your a Muslim it doesn't mean that you are good. I ask you people what is a person with good prayers but no hood virtues?:sl:

[جوري]

To the OP.. you are seeking answers from people.. You'll only get opinions.. if you are good, then be happy you are good.. your judgment doesn't really lie with humans..

cheers

[Najm]

:sl:
Yes if your a Muslim it doesn't mean that you are good. I ask you people what is a person with good prayers but no hood virtues?:sl:

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Muslims can be good or bad. A person with good prayers will repent and ask for forgiveness for their shortcomings and strive to find the right path. A person without good prayers, mostly likely wont and just dig a bigger hole!!!!!

Allahu Alim

FiAmaaniAllah

[IbnAbdulHakim]

To the OP.. you are seeking answers from people.. You'll only get opinions.. if you are good, then be happy you are good.. your judgment doesn't really lie with humans..

cheers

no but my answer was based on Gods judgement...

[جوري]

no but my answer was based on Gods judgement...

:sl:
I haven't really read your post akhi, however-- here is a lady who has' laid her deeds' before you, or whomever else is reading this, and I am merely commenting that the state of being good or being bad isn't a personal judgment or should be left even to human judgment..

I am not agreeing on her statement nor challenging it...Obviously to a theist, there is a philosophical and often time logical reason behind worship and the direct relationship to goodness-- but, it is the question of the ages, some mull over it and realize the path they must walk on, and others leave it to their whimsy..

Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that I see no rationale behind convincing folks of that which they have no desire to understand...
Like arguing with Christians on the 'divinity of Jesus' --
at the end of the day you'll have to part ways unfortunately after having wasted a great deal of time on the matter.

My two cents

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

Depends on how you define "good" of course.

If good is defined as obedience to God (as I suspect many religious folks define it) then atheists by definition ca not be good.

If good is defined otherwise, for example by empathy or kindness, then things get a lot more complicated and moral relavatism may sneak in the door, no?

[جوري]

'Good as obedience' is the reductionist approach of course is as expected, after all empathy as defined by atheism is nothing more than a mere extension of narcissism-- true goodness is a very evolved trait that requires more ism and less materialism-- it is too much of an abstract for an atheist to wrap his mind around!

[noorseeker]

When you are practising. People automaically think you are good, your an angel.
when you make a mistake then its like oh he should know better.

YOu cant stp people respecting you, and the danger is you start to believe you are a good person.


I think you should start everyday fresh. At the end of the day then say what actions have i done today to make me a good person

[Argamemnon]

'Good as obedience' is the reductionist approach of course is as expected, after all empathy as defined by atheism is nothing more than a mere extension of narcissism-- true goodness is a very evolved trait that requires more ism and less materialism-- it is too much of an abstract for an atheist to wrap his mind around!

Sister, I hardly ever understand your posts. Might be my poor English. I did understand all words in this post, but couldn't make anything of it. Let me try; are you saying that when atheists do something good - such as helping people in need - they do it to please themselves, or feel good about themselves, and in reality do not care about the people they are helping?

[جوري]

The fellow is defining 'good' when comes to theists as

'obedience to God (as I suspect many religious folks define it)'

see above for reference!.. and by same token, I am defining Good, in terms of atheism as an extension of narcissism if we are to take the reductionist approach..

whatever the case, I really believe the last few verses of suret Al-kahf are the best response to this thread

• (103) Say: "Shall we tell you who are the greatest losers in whatever they may do?
  
• (104) "[It is] they whose labour has gone astray in [the pursuit of no more than] this world's life, and who none the less think that they are doing good works: (105) it is they who have chosen to deny their Sustainer's messages and the truth;'that they are desEined to meet Him."
  
• Hence, all their [good] deeds come to nought, and no weight shall We assign to them on Resurrection Aay.'0° (106) That will be their recompense - [their] hell -for having denied the truth and made My messages and My apostles a target of their mockery.

:w:

[Abdiel]

"I have a good conscience and an innate instinct to be kind to my fellow human beings... Perhaps God has decided to create me as a nice person hoping I'll come round to religion at some point! Perhaps goodness is something that can shine through without the influence of the almighty?"

Karina, is the point of life merely to be good?

But first: how can you be sure that the goodness you show does not come from the Almighty, if it is possible that He made you in His own image to begin with? Perhaps God is the source of your conscience and (as you suggested) it is meant to lead you to Him, but not just religion for its own sake?

Yet it says in Paul's letter to the Romans that our consciences alternately affirm and condemn us. Do you think that a good thing you do today can balance out or even erase a bad thing done yesterday? That might make sense, but in practise I don't think it works. If I stole a car one day, and volunteered at a soup kitchen the next I would still go to jail. In Isaiah it says that all our good deeds are like filthy, menstral rags to God. So the bad in our lives always taints the good.

Jesus even said that there are none good except God alone. So when you ask "why am I good," I say you are not, in fact, good at all, just like me. So if we are not good, and cannot become good (because our bad always taints us) then what are we supposed to do? Good news for us: God has made an alternative choice possible through the Death and Resurrection of Christ. Through Him, He can erase our bad and cover us with His own goodness, so that in His eyes we can be perfect (absolutely good), and be adopted as His Sons and Daughters.

So the point of life is not just to be "good," but to enjoy and love God.

[ZarathustraDK]

An evolutionist would say that the reason you do good things (in this context stuff that benefits yourself and others, even for seemingly altruistic reasons), is because it enhances the individuals chance of survival, makes it more fit.

Teamwork allows groups of individuals to accomplish things which a single individual cannot, so it "pays off" to be nice to your fellow humans, as they're more likely to help you back when you need it. Of course, most normal people do this by instinct (they don't actively think "hey if I help these guys then they must reciprocate").

[Karina]

Thank you dear people for your replies. I've not been around for a while so only just got round to looking at this....

I was not seeking answers, simply stimulating polite debate as usual!

:)

[Grace Seeker]

Thank you dear people for your replies. I've not been around for a while so only just got round to looking at this....

I was not seeking answers, simply stimulating polite debate as usual!

:)

Mind if I debate the premise itself? You ask, "Why am I good?" in which you assume that the premise that you are "good" is true. But I would like to suggest that "goodness" is a state of being like God with respect to righteousness. By that standard I don't believe that any of us humans -- you, me, not even Muhammad (pbuh) -- is truly good, because if we were then we would be equal to God and none of us qualifies for that distinction. Perhaps by his grace and with God's help we can become "good", but not since Adam chose to go his own way rather than God's way do I think we can say that any of us have been truly "good". Sure, some of us have been "better" than others. But what does that mean if those we measure ourselves by are already known to not be so good in the first place? The only legitimate standard by which we can measure "goodness" is God himself, and when we do this we all fall short.

[Qingu]

Mind if I debate the premise itself? You ask, "Why am I good?" in which you assume that the premise that you are "good" is true. But I would like to suggest that "goodness" is a state of being like God with respect to righteousness. By that standard I don't believe that any of us humans -- you, me, not even Muhammad (pbuh) -- is truly good, because if we were then we would be equal to God and none of us qualifies for that distinction. Perhaps by his grace and with God's help we can become "good", but not since Adam chose to go his own way rather than God's way do I think we can say that any of us have been truly "good". Sure, some of us have been "better" than others. But what does that mean if those we measure ourselves by are already known to not be so good in the first place? The only legitimate standard by which we can measure "goodness" is God himself, and when we do this we all fall short.

The problem with this is if we take the Biblical god seriously then we're forced to conclude that slavery and genocide are good things.

In Deuteronomy 20, Yahweh commands you to enslave all the men of cities you conquer—that is, unless they live in the holy land, in which case you are to "let nothing that breathes remain alive." This is the deity who, in Deuteronomy 28, says he will "take delight in your ruin and destruction" if you fail to follow all of his ridiculous laws (including the ones commanding slavery and genocide). Among Yahweh's preferred methods of destroying the disobedient are inflicting a litany of disease-curses, bringing foreign nations to enslave you, and forcing you to eat the flesh of your own miscarried children.

Yahweh is despicable. Aside from his sadism and intolerance, he is the only deity that I am aware of to actually command his followers to commit genocide. While I imagine many bronze-age nomads thought genocide was a-okay, it is hard to imagine an honest modern Christian defining "goodness" in terms of a genocidal deity.

Which is to say, Grace Seeker: I seriously doubt Yahweh is your moral yardstick in any sense at all. Instead, I think this is just theological nonsense that Christians have trained themselves to say, without actually thinking about its implications. But please correct me if your moral yardstick does, in fact, entail a tolerance for genocide and slavery.

[Karina]

OK I get the point!

"good" "nice" "pleasant" "kind" "good-hearted" "honourable"

Goodness is many things, it's such a broad category which varies from culture to culture. How good is defined is debatable, which is why I put the word in inverted commas!

Personally I don't define myself as "bad", "unpleasant" or "vile", but hey... that's incredibly subjective.

Maybe I should have phrased the question "Why am I not a murder, liar or thief?"


:)

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe I should have phrased the question "Why am I not a murder, liar or thief?"
:)

So, why aren't you? Is it by choice, fear of retribution, or just happenstance?

[sevgi]

how can you be good when your not asking for forgiveness from God even though you transgress him in hideous ways everyday?


i remind myself before you, and i assure you i never think of myself as good..... even though i do ask forgiveness many times...

How do you know she trangresses God in hideous ways everyday?

She is a good moral being. She has drawn out very moral and somewhat 'Islamic' principles for herself in the context to which she belongs.

Did our prophet not do the same thing before Islam was revealed to him? I don't think it is much of a risk to call our prophet an agnostic, prior to Islam.

I don't know if he drank alcohol. But even if he had, it wasn't forbidden then.

The way you find inner peace is upto you. I know for a fact that many people would fall into depression if they were to 'never believe that they are good'. Perhaps the key is to never think you are 'good enough'. And the OP does mention her flaws. She is well aware of the fact that she is not good enough.

[Karl]

everybody is good and evil...something has to die to give us life and we have no choice, we're not solar powered. Dont get too deep in morality you'll go mad.