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BlackHeart
12-25-2008, 08:48 PM
I have come to you followers of Islam.

Hear Me, the followers of my Prophet, Mohammed. You are the followers of that which is right, saith the Lord.

But you have not accepted my death on the cross as the way to eternal life.

Accept me, the one who died upon the cross for I came to forgive sins and to give you eternal life.

Remove yourselves from my land which I gave to my chosen people, the Jews.

Join yourselves with my new covenant, the Christians.

Christans, join yourselves to my righteous people, the followers of Isalm, who follow my Prophet, Mohammed.

Those who follow my prophet Mohammed, you do error to set your selves against my new covenent, the Christians who follow my new law.

Join yourselves together as One Prophet.

The Deceiver has been cast down and is working to deceive you and to cause division between those who belong to me.

You are the old and the new Covenant that I have set before Mankind.

Join yourselves together as One. The Christians have forgotten that which is right and Islam does not have that which is grace.

Join together and fight the principalities and powers that come against you to deceive you and to destroy you.

Remember the words of my Prohphet, Michah.



<< Micah 4 >>
King James Bible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-26-2008, 01:15 AM
A message from Ahmed Deedat

Crucifixion Fact or Fiction Part 1

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...d+deedat&hl=en

Crucifixion Fact or Fiction Part 2

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...35534843&hl=en
Reply

Aqeel Ahmed
12-26-2008, 01:30 AM
:sl:
If you could also give the link to the article that would be good. Younger Brother what are those links for?:sl:
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-26-2008, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
I have come to you followers of Islam.

Hear Me, the followers of Jesus. You are the followers of that which is right, saith the Lord.

But you have perverted my laws and taken set up my servant as God.

Accept me, the one who dies not and forgives whenever I will, whomever I will.

Be an example for the world and to the Jews too, who think they alone are special.

Join yourselves with the natural religion, the religion of ABraham, Moses, jesus and Muhammad pbuaot.

Christans, join yourselves to my righteous people, the followers of Islam, who follow my Prophet, Mohammed.

Those who worship Jesus, you do error to set your selves against my eternal law.

Join yourselves together as One under the final Prophet.

The Deceiver has been cast down and is working to deceive you and to cause division between those who belong to me. Therefore do not assign other Gods besides me. Jesus was no more than a man, a servant, who will return to break the cross.

You are the old and the new Covenant that I have set before Mankind.

Join yourselves together as One. The Christians have forgotten that which is right and Islam is here to remind them.

Join together and fight the principalities and powers that come against you to deceive you and to destroy you.

Remember the words of my Prohphet, Michah.



<< Micah 4 >>
King James Bible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
There you go, I corrected that for you.

About the part with us leaving Israel. The Torah says that the Jews are an exiled people. The Jews belive that they cannot set up Israel until their Messiah comes. They dont belive Jesus was and do not think that Israel is legitimate.

Go look up the rabbis who have argues this point on youtube.
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Zafran
12-26-2008, 03:13 AM
salaam

MEANING OF TRANSLTION OF THE QURAN

[2.40] 'Children of Israel, remember My favor I have bestowed upon you.
Fulfill My covenant, and I will fulfill your covenant with you. Me, you
must fear.
[2.41] And believe in what I have sent down confirming what is with you,
and do not be the first to disbelieve it. Do not sell My verses for a
little price and fear Me.
[2.42] Do not confound truth with falsehood, nor knowingly hide the truth
while you know.
[2.43] Establish your prayers, pay the obligatory charity, and bow with
those who bow.
[2.44] Would you order righteousness on others and forget it yourselves?
Yet you recite the Book, have you no sense?
[2.45] And seek help in patience and prayer. For it is heavy, except to the
humble,
[2.46] who reckon that they will meet their Lord and that to Him they will
return.




PEACE
Reply

north_malaysian
12-26-2008, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
I have come to you followers of Islam.
BlackHeart is Jesus? LOL :D


format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
You are the followers of that which is right, saith the Lord.
Of course....

format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
But you have not accepted my death on the cross as the way to eternal life.
Jesus didnt die ..... yet...

format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Accept me, the one who died upon the cross for I came to forgive sins and to give you eternal life.
Accept you and get one way ticket to the hell? No ... thank you...

format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Remove yourselves from my land which I gave to my chosen people, the Jews.
How about Christian Palestinian/Israeli Arabs? They're not the chosen people, but they worship you.... have to remove them too?

format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Join yourselves with my new covenant, the Christians.
which Christians? the Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Orthodoxs or Moonies?

format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Christans, join yourselves to my righteous people, the followers of Isalm, who follow my Prophet, Mohammed.
How about joining Islam?

format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Those who follow my prophet Mohammed, you do error to set your selves against my new covenent, the Christians who follow my new law.
Christians have laws too?



format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
The Deceiver has been cast down and is working to deceive you and to cause division between those who belong to me.
who the heck is the Deceiver? CNN?
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 07:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
There you go, I corrected that for you.

About the part with us leaving Israel. The Torah says that the Jews are an exiled people. The Jews belive that they cannot set up Israel until their Messiah comes. They dont belive Jesus was and do not think that Israel is legitimate.

Go look up the rabbis who have argues this point on youtube.
Actually, Israel had to become a nation again in these last days so that Christ can return. Only the Messianic Jews really understand the Torah, because they have received God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. And in terms of Islam leaving Israel alone, take a look at what's in Pslams:

'They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.' Pslams 83: 4.
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 07:58 AM
you are a funny guy Fedos...
I love how the two churls use each other...
one establishes the colonial settler state while excavating beneath Al Aqsa to build their third temple for their moschiach to come as if making it all ready for God will make him accept the fact of the matter after all, they are 'chosen' and the others who are helping them build their colonial settler state in hopes of a republican right wing Jesus descending down a silver cloud for a perfect rapture 'Narnia style' -- while killing, exiling, displacing and ruining the lives of millions...

Doesn't it also say in your bible that the meek shall inherit the earth? Do you think forcing your biblical point of views unto the world will really make things unravel as you dream?

The assembly of the colonial settler state of Israel is indeed as well mentioned in the Quran -- but neither your point of view, nor theirs is correct...



وَقَضَيْنَا إِلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ فِي الْكِتَابِ لَتُفْسِدُنَّ فِي الأَرْضِ مَرَّتَيْنِ وَلَتَعْلُنَّ عُلُوًّا كَبِيرًا {4}
[Pickthal 17:4] And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.

فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً {5}
[Pickthal 17:5] So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.

ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَا لَكُمُ الْكَرَّةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَمْدَدْنَاكُم بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ أَكْثَرَ نَفِيرًا {6}
[Pickthal 17:6] Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.

إِنْ أَحْسَنتُمْ أَحْسَنتُمْ لِأَنفُسِكُمْ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ لِيَسُوؤُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَلِيُتَبِّرُواْ مَا عَلَوْاْ تَتْبِيرًا {7}
[Pickthal 17:7] (Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.


وَقُلْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِ لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اسْكُنُواْ الأَرْضَ فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ جِئْنَا بِكُمْ لَفِيفًا {104}
[Pickthal 17:104] And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.


you might enjoy this.. uses your book of Daniel

The Day Of Wrath


cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 08:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
you are a funny guy Fedos...
I love how the two churls use each other...
one establishes the colonial settler state while excavating beneath Al Aqsa to build their third temple for their moschiach to come as if making it all ready for God will make him accept the fact of the matter after all, they are 'chosen' and the others who are helping them build their colonial settler state in hopes of a republican right wing Jesus descending down a silver cloud for a perfect rapture 'Narnia style' -- while killing, exiling, displacing and ruining the lives of millions...

Doesn't it also say in your bible that the meek shall inherit the earth? Do you think forcing your biblical point of views unto the world will really make things unravel as you dream?

The assembly of the colonial settler state of Israel is indeed as well mentioned in the Quran -- but neither your point of view, nor theirs is correct...



وَقَضَيْنَا إِلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ فِي الْكِتَابِ لَتُفْسِدُنَّ فِي الأَرْضِ مَرَّتَيْنِ وَلَتَعْلُنَّ عُلُوًّا كَبِيرًا {4}
[Pickthal 17:4] And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.

فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً {5}
[Pickthal 17:5] So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.

ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَا لَكُمُ الْكَرَّةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَمْدَدْنَاكُم بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ أَكْثَرَ نَفِيرًا {6}
[Pickthal 17:6] Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.

إِنْ أَحْسَنتُمْ أَحْسَنتُمْ لِأَنفُسِكُمْ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ لِيَسُوؤُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَلِيُتَبِّرُواْ مَا عَلَوْاْ تَتْبِيرًا {7}
[Pickthal 17:7] (Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.


وَقُلْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِ لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اسْكُنُواْ الأَرْضَ فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ جِئْنَا بِكُمْ لَفِيفًا {104}
[Pickthal 17:104] And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.


you might enjoy this.. uses your book of Daniel

The Day Of Wrath


cheers
Corrrect me if I'm wrong, but I thought that Muslims recognized the Psalms? And the purpose of the rapture is not to displace many millions of people. It's true that the Bible teaches that after the rapture of the church that things will get horrifying down here, but that is because God is pouring out his wrath on those who reject his salvation plan.

The purpose of the rapture is to begin a process of God to restore this world back to its original state, and for the wrapping up of time into eternity. And I will read your link tomorrow when it's not so late.
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 08:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
Corrrect me if I'm wrong, but I thought that Muslims recognized the Psalms? And the purpose of the rapture is not to displace many millions of people. It's true that the Bible teaches that after the rapture of the church that things will get horrifying down here, but that is because God is pouring out his wrath on those who reject his salvation plan.
I think you should read before you write Fedos.. it seems your thoughts are always traveling on a different tangent..
We are not writing of the rapture of the moschiach.. we are writing with what is currently happening to festinate the delusions of both Christians and Jews at the price of millions (irregardless) of their religious convictions.. did it also occur to you that their are Christian Arabs, who interpret Christianity completely differently than you, further more they themselves suffering this occupation. Does your God Jesus love injustice?-- did he tell you, funnel billions into the colonial settler state so I may descend down a republican on a silver cloud to take my devotees to heaven?
The purpose of the rapture is to begin a process of God to restore this world back to its original state, and for the wrapping up of time into eternity. And I will read your link tomorrow when it's not so late.
Why does God have to descend on a silver cloud to do that? can't he do it from up there? Do you ever think how completely anticlimactic Christianity is -- and how petty you make your God? truly reducing him to a lion(animal) on a children story.. please wake up -- how mad do you have to be to believe this nonsense?

cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 09:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I think you should read before you write Fedos.. it seems your thoughts are always traveling on a different tangent..
We are not writing of the rapture of the moschiach.. we are writing with what is currently happening to festinate the delusions of both Christians and Jews at the price of millions (irregardless) of their religious convictions.. did it also occur to you that their are Christian Arabs, who interpret Christianity completely differently than you, further more they themselves suffering this occupation. Does your God Jesus love injustice?-- did he tell you, funnel billions into the colonial settler state so I may descend down a republican on a silver cloud to take my devotees to heaven?
No, but it is written in the Old Testament that whoever blesses Israel and the Jewish people God will bless, and whoever curses them he will curse. And do you have a link to what Christian Arabs believe? And by chance would these happen to be Arab Catholics?


format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Why does God have to descend on a silver cloud to do that? can't he do it from up there? Do you ever think how completely anticlimactic Christianity is -- and how petty you make your God? truly reducing him to a lion(animal) on a children story.. please wake up -- how mad do you have to be to believe this nonsense?cheers
Well, it's not like I don't have a testimony. I can see if I didn't have a lifestyle that backed up my beliefs. My life testifies to the truth of the Bible. I can't just sit here and deny what Christ has personally done for me.

In terms of why Christ has to descend on a cloud, this is what the Bible says:

'But I would not have you be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.' 1 Thessalonians 3: 13-18.

It just says that Christians will meet the Lord 'in the air,' or in the sky.

It says the same thing in 1st Corinthians:

'Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortatlity.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?' I Corinthians 15: 51-56.

I think you are confusing the Second Coming with the rapture. I think it says in Revelation somewhere that Jesus will return to Earth in a cloud, but I don't know the reasoning behind it, or why he would return in that way. Perhaps it would be akin to a herald, so those both for and against Christ can know that the tribulation is over or something, and that final judgement and deliverance are on their way.
Reply

malayloveislam
12-26-2008, 05:01 PM
Assalamualaikum warahmataullah,

I think that God Himself had cursed the Children of Israel, it had been quoted in Glorious Quran. They had killed the prophets of their own tribe, John, Zacharia, Jesus (they tried to kill him), and etc. They had brought destruction, entering the land of Palestine through opposing way that had been ordered by God. They disobey prophet Moses (pbuh) and disobey prophet Yusyaa' (Yesaya) to fight the infidel Canaanite. And after the Canaanites had embraced the path of God (Islam), they had slaughtered them again. They also had slaughtered the Children of Ismael (Muslim Arabs) which are their brethren in Palestine. They put false accusations to prophet Jesus (pbuh) and insulting him as a ******* (may Allah deflect it to those who had insult him) and his mother, Maar Maryam as a dirty woman (same goes to those who had insult this honorable pious woman).

I don't know about Orthodox Jews. I do respect Orthodox Jews, but I don't know about their view about prophet Jesus (pbuh), I guess they too do not believe in prophet Jesus (pbuh) and prophet Muhammad (pbuh) prophethood. That is why they are called as Jews and their religion as Judaism. Muslims believe in prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and other previous prophets mentioned by Lord Allah.

There are Jews and Christians in Palestine and other Nejd area of Arab Peninsula who embraced Islam because Islam is the continuation of the teaching of their prophets.

What is so special with Jews??? Lord Allah had told us that anybody be they Romans, Greeks, Indians, Arabs, Africans, etc will be special in His view if they fear God and bring peace, submitting themselves fully to Lord Allah (Islam) and spreading love among human of different tribes. But what has Zionist done in the earth instead of spilling blood?? They do not believe in prophet Muhammad (pbuh) it is still OK because it is not forced over anybody to believe his prophethood, but they had insulted the prophets that God had sent as the messenger to the universe. Claiming themselves as the children of Allah and make killing other lives who are not Jews as legal, without God permission. Most of them are Egos and stubborn.
Reply

malayloveislam
12-26-2008, 05:22 PM
When talking about Jews who suffers, what about Muslims who had suffered during Crusade Knights conquering Jerusalem?

Holy War (Jihad): http://home.att.net/~a.f.aly/jihad.htm

Non - Muslim authors accuse Muslims of spreading Islam by the sword, by waging holy wars. They ignore the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today. They cannot find a trace of evidence showing that swords or force of any kind are responsible for the current high rate of conversion to Islam.

The concepts of "holy war" and "just war" were developed by the Holy (Christian) Roman Empire to force the pacifist Middle Eastern Christians into the Roman army. These Christians believed in turning the other cheek and renounced violence for 3 centuries before the Romans converted to Christianity under the rule of Constantine.

It is not surprising that the Christian Roman Empire was militant, It's first emperor believed he conquered Rome after a vision in which he saw a cross over the sun and heard a voice telling him that he would win under the religion of the cross.

Those who claim that Jesus preached only love and peace ignore Jesus' words: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." [Matthew 10:34]. " Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. [Matthew 21:18,19].

Jesus died in his thirties leaving behind few followers. He was not responsible for a new nation under siege by the hostile Persian and Holy Roman Empires as Muhammad was.

Western authors erroneously translate the Arabic term jihad to mean holy war. Jihad means struggle or resistance. Muhammad defined the struggle with the self to be a better person or to resist temptation as the major jihad. He also defined the struggle with others to defend the Muslim Nation and to resist their threat as the minor jihad.

Islam is spreading today for the same reasons it spread rapidly in the past (since the time of Abraham). Islam presents the seeker with a natural, sound, logical, believable, practical, simple, balanced and achievable belief and practice system. Islam does not contradict human nature or modern science.

The Qur'an anticipated many of the modern scientific discoveries which were beyond human imagination 14 centuries ago. This separates the Qur'an from other religious texts.

The Qur'an advises against using force to change people's religion [Qur'an 2:256] or being the aggressor [Qur'an 2:190]. Muslims are asked to refrain from vengeance against prisoners of war or civilians in defeated regions [Qur'an 16:126,127; 8:67]. Muslims were bound by the guidelines of the Qur'an since they fought and did everything, in the name of God.

Muslims fought against the rulers who opposed them and their armies not against the people or their institutions. Non - Muslims were admitted to Muslim Universities. Those who excelled became top advisers to Muslim leaders regardless of race, religion, color, or ethnic background. This was another factor which accelerated the spread of Islam.

A search for the word "kill" found it 442 times in the Revised Standard Version, and 271 times in the King James Version of the Bible compared to 40 times in the Pickthall Version and 22 times in the Yusuf-Ali Version of the Qur'an!

The facts show that Islam tolerates non - Muslim minorities within the Muslim Nation and treats them as independent nations free to worship and live according to their own religious laws. This was outlined in the Covenant of Medina which became the world's first written constitution in 622 AD.

In contrast, the Christian Romans used force to convert all the countries under their dominion to Christianity. When Roman Catholicism became the state religion, the Romans persecuted the Orthodox Christians who did not convert. The number of Orthodox Christians killed by Rome reached 200,000 which is huge considering the small population of Egypt at the time (elshaab.com, 1/4/99, page2).

The spread of Islam in the 7th century threatened the Romans and Persians who shared dominion over Arabia and collected heavy taxes from the Arabs. This led to a series of wars between the Romans and Persians on one side and the Muslims on the other.

The Muslims won the war with Persia and restricted the Romans to Asia minor until the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople in the 16th century. This spread the Muslim influence over the civilized world from the seventh to the fourteenth centuries. The way Muslims conducted the affairs of state and their personal lives led many Christians, Jews and others to embrace Islam.

Muslims in Europe:

When the Muslims ruled European countries including Spain, Portugal, southern France, southern Italy, and Sicily; Christians and Jews thrived and were allowed in Muslim Universities. This gave Europeans the scientific and artistic tools which helped them start the Renaissance several centuries later when the hold of the Catholic Church over Europe was weakened.

Muslim taxes were a fraction of the Roman taxes. Muslims considered their sphere of influence as one nation. They did not transfer wealth from the countries they occupied to Arabia or practice genocide against the native population like what had been practiced by Portugal, Britain, Holland, and the US.

When the tables were turned and the Catholic Spaniards defeated the Muslims in Spain and Portugal, they instituted the Spanish Inquisition which killed or expelled millions of Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity. The Jews suffered a similar fate at the hands of the Spaniards.

While millions of Christians and Jews continue to thrive in the Muslim countries after 14 centuries of Muslim domination, there is no trace of the millions of Muslims who lived for centuries in Spain and Portugal. Evidence of their past existence can only be found in beautiful palaces like Alhambra in Granada, flamenco music and dancing, Portuguese fado singing, and the abundance of Arabic words in the Spanish and Portuguese languages.

The Crusades:

The "real" holy wars were waged by the Crusaders against the Muslims in the Middle East. The Crusaders were brutal in their treatment of Muslim prisoners of war and civilians. When the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem, they killed 70,000 Muslims. When the Muslims re-conquered the city they did not kill anybody.

Orthodox Christians in Palestine were considered heretics and therefore did not escape the Crusaders' brutality. The Orthodox Churches, which were safe during centuries of Muslim rule, were looted by the Crusaders. The Holy Grail was not the only thing the Crusaders took from the Orthodox churches.

When Muslims ended the Crusades by re-conquering Acre from the Crusaders, Pope Nicolas IV barred Christians from selling timber to Muslims. This embargo did not result in persecution of the Christians in the Muslim countries.

Napoleonic Crusade:

The Crusades were not an unfortunate episode during the dark age in Europe that ended a long time ago. When Napoleon invaded Egypt, he ordered his troops to destroy the face of the sphinx and the tip of the great pyramid to leave his mark on them.

His cavalry desecrated al-Azhar mosque, the Muslim World's equivalent of the Vatican and the first university in the world, with their horses. The French soldiers burned the rare manuscripts in its library to keep warm.

Napoleon was proud that he had ordered beheading 5-6 people daily and parading their heads in the streets to scare the population!

After defeating the Turks in Jaffa, Napoleon ordered his troops to kill about 2500 Turkish soldiers from the city garrison who surrendered. The soldiers were led to the shore and the French kept firing at them until they ran out of ammunition then finished them off with bayonets. The water turned red from the blood of the slain Turks. In the city, the killing, raping, looting and burning lasted for 2 days and did not stop until the French troops were too exhausted to continue.

When a survivor of the Jaffa massacre killed a French general, his hands were cut, his wrists were burned then he was impaled. After his slow death, his head was severed and was given to a French surgeon who showed the skull to his students in Paris as an example of a terrorist and a criminal.

It seems that the principles of the French revolution: Freedom, equality and brotherhood did not apply to Muslims! This was later confirmed when the French occupied Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia and declared them French territories. The French citizenship was given to Jews and Christians but not to Muslims!

Modern Crusades:

When general Allenby, the commander of the British forces in the Middle East during World War I, entered Jerusalem and Damascus he proclaimed the end of the Crusades.

Nazi Crusade:

Abdel Wahab El-Messeri (Al-Ahram Weekly, 23 - 29 December 1999, Issue No. 461) reported:

"In the course of my research for the Encyclopedia of Jews, Judaism and Zionism, I was surprised to find how frequently the word "Muselmann" (Muslim) appeared in the Auschwitz concentration camp lists. According to one source, the victims who were led off to the gas chambers were called "aliens" ((??)) and according to other sources, "Muselmanner". In the Encyclopedia Judaica, I came across the following entry:

"Muselmann (Muslim in German) was a commonly used terms in the concentration camps, used to refer to the prisoners who were on the brink of death, that is to say those who began to show the final symptoms of starvation, disease, mental apathy and physical weakness. The term was primarily used in Auschwitz, but was also used in other camps."

We see here an epitome of one central dimension of the Western mentality. Whenever it destroys its victims it perceives them as "other," and the other, since the time of the Crusades, has always been the Muslim. In the Middle Ages, moreover, Muslims and Jews were closely linked in the Western mind. One can find, for instance, many paintings which portray the Prophet Muhammad (born 570 AD) flogging Christ.

The Nazi experience is an authentic product of this Western mindset. The Nazis were the standard bearers of this vision. They epitomised the Western confrontation with the oriental civilisation closest to Europe: the Islamic civilisation. They never forgot this burden, even when annihilating millions of inhabitants of Europe. The connotation of the term "Muselmann" was simply extended to include the "other" in general, whether Slavs, Jews or Gypsies (as has occurred in a similar manner with the word "Arab" in Zionist discourse). The writer of the preceding entry in the Encyclopedia Judaica attempted to explain how this term came into currency in the camps. The Nazis' victims, he said, would crouch cross-legged in the "oriental" manner and the expression on their faces would be wooden, as lifeless as a mask. One notes that the writer, in his definition, made no attempt to avoid the customary Western stereotype of Muslims. He simply substituted the word "oriental" for "Muselmann"."

Terrorist and fundamentalist have frequently replaced the word "oriental".

Muslims revere Moses, Jesus and all the prophets and consider Judaism and Christianity earlier phases of the primordial religion of God: Islam. The Muslims in Bulgaria, for example, were very active in protecting Jewish groups from persecution, and King Hussein V of Morocco refused to hand over his Jewish subjects to the Vichy government in France.

Unfortunately, Jews and Christians do not recognize Islam or the Prophet Muhammad's mission. Most Christians and Jews consider Muslims sinners who are not chosen by God or saved and are, therefore, not entitled to equal or humane treatment.

Jewish Crusade:

The United Nations records document countless atrocities against Muslim civilians by the Jews in Palestine. Infamous examples are the massacres in Kafr Qasim, Dir Yasin by the Jewish terrorist gangs before the UN divided Palestine into a Palestinian and Jewish states.

An Israeli historian uncovered credible evidence that troops massacred 200 Palestinians in a single village on the day Israel came into being in 1948.

Teddy Katz, who researched events in the village of Tantura for a masters degree, said he had spoken to witnesses including soldiers who were present to support his findings.

``It started at night and was over in a few hours,'' Katz said 14 Israeli soldiers were killed in the ambush on the village. Tantura, near Haifa in northern Israel, had 1,500 residents at the time. It was later demolished to make way for a parking lot for a nearby beach and the Nahsholim kibbutz, or cooperative farm.

Katz said the killing spree in Tantura was more tragic and bigger than in the village of Deir Yassin just west of Jerusalem, where scores of Palestinians were killed on April 9, 1948, in an assault by Jewish armed groups.

Reports just after the Deir Yassin killings spoke of some 240 deaths. Up to 700,000 Palestinians fled from their towns and villages or were driven out by Jewish troops in the conflict between Arab and Jew that surrounded Israel's creation.

Fawzi Tanji, now 73 and a refugee at a camp in the West Bank, is from Tantura and worked until May 1948 as a guard for the army in British Mandate Palestine.

He told Reuters he had watched as Israeli troops took over the village, lined men up against a cemetery wall and shot them. Katz said 95 men were killed at the cemetery.

``I was 21 years old then. They took a group of 10 men, lined them up against the cemetery wall and killed them. Then they brought another group, killed them, threw away the bodies and so on,'' Tanji said.

The Israeli newspaper Maariv, which reported Katz's findings Wednesday, quoted the commander of the Tantura attack as saying his troops had no grounds to ask questions or spare lives.

``It was war...When you see the enemy opposite you, he doesn't have a note saying he doesn't mean to shoot you. When you see him, you shoot him,'' retired colonel Bentz Pridan said. (New York Times, January 19, 2000)

Other infamous massacres include the massacres in Palestinian refugee camps in Sabra and Shatila, and the recent massacre in Qana (where Jesus once attended a wedding and changed water into wine!) More than 200 women, children and old men who were seeking shelter near a UN camp were killed by deliberate Israeli bombing.

Israel occupied southern Lebanon for 20 years. In 1978, UN Security Council Resolution 425 called " upon Israel immediately to cease its military action against Lebanese territorial integrity and withdraw forthwith its forces from all Lebanese territory.

Instead of complying with the UN Security Council Resolution, Israel invaded additional Lebanese territory in 1982, 1993, and 1996 killing tens of thousands and displaced hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians.

Israel has been holding scores of innocent Lebanese hostages, some for more than a decade, in prisons in Israel and Israeli-occupied south Lebanon. Recent news reports also suggest that Israel has been systematically stealing fertile topsoil from Israeli-occupied southern Lebanon and trucking it to Israel.

The value of property, seized by Israel from 700,000 Palestinians who fled Palestine when the Jewish terrorists announced the formation of Israel in 1948, is estimated at more than 6 billion dollars excluding interest.

Violation of the civil, religious and human rights of the Muslim and Christian minorities in Israel, which are 18% of the population, had no effect on the flow of unlimited aid to Israel. Israel has destroyed about 400 mosques and 400 churches since the UN divided Palestine into Palestinian and Jewish States in 1948.

It seems that the US policy of linking foreign aid to human rights and religious persecution records of foreign countries does not apply to Israel.

Serbian Crusade:

The Serb Christians waged war on the Muslim civilians in Bosnia and Kosovo. In Bosnia, more than 200,000 Muslims have been killed and more than 1400 mosques have been destroyed or damaged. About 200 villages have been destroyed in Kosovo and about 250,000 refugees have fled for their lives.

When the Serb Christians invaded Kosovo, they destroyed all mosques despite the fact that the Christian monasteries were safe for centuries in the predominantly Muslim Kosovo.

Double Standards:

The mentality of the Crusades still exists today under the guise of fighting terrorists or Muslim fundamentalists, or fighting the spread of weapons of mass destruction (meaning leaving the Muslim countries vulnerable to the threat of mass destruction by Israel or others), or stemming the tide of immigration by North Africans to Europe."

The economic sanctions, advocated by Pope Nicolas IV, continue today against Muslim countries labelled by the State Department as "rogue nations" or "nations that sponsor terrorism" or "nations that violate civil rights of minorities" or "nations that oppose peace with Israel"

Despite the media's attempts to demonize the Muslims, the facts show that about 80% of the 23 million refugees in the world today are Muslims!

The facts contradict all the rhetoric by the media and government officials linking Muslims to terrorism. The State Department's "Patterns of Global Terrorism" 1997 report, there were 123 anti-U.S. attacks in that year; 97 occurred in Latin America, seven took place in Europe and six in Asia. The Middle East ranked fourth as a location of anti-American attacks.

The previous State Department report showed a similar pattern. In 1996, there were 73 anti-American attacks world-wide; 58 were in Latin America, eight in Europe and three in the Middle East.

When the Afghani Mujahideen ( those who conduct Jihad ), aided by fighters from Saudi Arabia trained and armed by the US, fought the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, they were hailed as freedom fighters. Jihad was good in those days. The US was calling for a worldwide Islamic Jihad against the Soviets.

When the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were quickly denounced as terrorists because of their opposition to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian, Syrian, and Lebanese territories.

Christian fundamentalists are waging a Crusade to end the separation between church and state in the US and put the first nail in the coffin of the American system of government. They have replaced modern science with the Bible in their schools. They advocate a pre-renaissance philosophy. This proves the Muslims provided the knowledge that launched the Renaissance in Europe. It is ironic that the West opposes Muslim fundamentalists who teach evolution in their schools.

Some Christian fundamentalists even turned to violence when they could not impose their views legally and killed law enforcement officers in Waco and bombed abortion clinics in several cities. The government and the media never refer to the threat of Christian fundamentalists.

Jewish fundamentalists murdered Rabin, their own prime minister, when he finally saw the light. Rabin realized that Israel has to make peace with the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab World to secure its long term prospects in the region.

Jewish fundamentalists oppose peace and conduct demonstrations with banners calling for killing the Arabs. Many of these fundamentalists have killed Palestinian civilians and desecrated the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem and were either never arrested or quickly released from police custody because there were judged mentally unstable.

These activities are never reported by the media in the US the way they cover suicide bombings by desperate militants who have lost everything to illegal destruction of their homes and killing of their family members by the Israeli government or by Jewish settlers who are illegally taking over Palestinian territories and barring Palestinians from access to their farms and places of worship to pressure them into submission to the illegal status quo.

The West ignores the threat of Christian and Jewish fundamentalists while actively opposing Muslim fundamentalists, even when they are democratically elected.

The military takeovers of the elected governments in Algeria, Sierra Leone, Tajikistan and Turkey were encouraged by the West. However, the military takeover of the elected government in Haiti was not tolerated. The UN authorized a US invasion to return the elected government to power.

The Crusade against Iraq:

The US vetoed many UN decisions condemning Israeli actions. The Muslim countries were told peace can be achieved only by direct negotiations with Israel. Military action or sanctions against Israel were never options for attaining peace in the Middle East.

This policy did not apply to Iraq - the former US ally during the Iran/Iraq war. The US obtained a UN decision against Iraq the day following the invasion of Kuwait. Kuwait had been a province of Iraq until the British decided to make it a separate protectorate after World War I. Iraq was not allowed (like Israel) 32 years of procrastination and frivolous negotiations with the Sheik of Kuwait. In short, there was no peace process.

Iraq was bombed into the stone age and unprecedented sanctions were imposed which led to the death of more than one million Iraqis to-date. A whole generation of Iraqis was murdered by the sanctions against Iraq since 1991. Swift military action is ready to kill more Iraqis if they protest the frivolous inspections that have been going on all these years.

More than 270 teams of inspectors have conducted 9340 inspections. Since 1991, the inspectors verified the destruction of 30 warheads, 18 ballistic missiles, 700,000 tons of chemicals they claimed could produce weapons, and 40,000 tons of chemicals that could be used in weapons.

The inspectors claim they still need to do their work. The US maintains the sanctions will continue until the inspectors "finish" their work.

Americans who oppose the U.S. government's policy on Iraq ended a Christmas visit Tuesday meant to focus attention on the suffering of Iraqi children (December 28, 1999 9:32 a.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com).

During their weeklong visit, the group spent Christmas among the Iraqi Christian community in Basra, a city some 335 miles south of Baghdad.

"We spent Christmas morning in one of the hospitals where we saw for ourselves infants dying because there is never enough medicine," said Chuck Quilty of Rock Island, Ill., one of eight American Catholics in the Voices in the Wilderness delegation.

UN officials keep resigning in protest of the sanctions against the Iraqi people. The latest resignations came February 14, 2000 from Hans von Sponeck the top UN official in Iraq and Jutta Burghardt the head of the World Food Program.

Current Crusade:

Unfortunately, the holy war against Islam will continue to claim more Muslim victims in the foreseeable future. In an effort to keep the military industrial complex going after the end of the cold war, Islam has been targeted as the new enemy and new threats have been invented. This keeps tax payers' subsidies flowing to the cold war industry and protects it from competition from the productive economy.

The US spends more on the military than the rest of the world combined. The government needs terrorists and Islamophobia to justify this level of military expenditures. It is ironic that the current most dangerous enemies, according to the US government, were trained and armed by the US!

The US accounts for half of the weapons exports around the world. These exports need wars and conflicts to sustain them. This is a major disappointment to all the people who hoped that the collapse of the Berlin Wall would bring world peace and prosperity for all.

The oil producing countries in the Middle East purchase a significant portion of the US arms sales. US taxpayers subsidize massive military aid to Israel. A just peace in the Middle East would eliminate most of the US arms sales.

Muslim militants in the Middle East are resisting Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Lebanon, and Syria. This occupation violates international law and numerous UN resolutions. Targeting the militants will not bring peace to the Middle East but will bring the downfall of the moderate leaders. Ending the occupation will bring peace and help the moderates on both sides build a better future for all the people in the Middle East.

The racial conflicts in the US in the 1960s offer a useful analogy. The assassinations of Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and militant black leaders did not end the riots and the strife. The conflicts were not obviously caused by the militants. The militants and the conflicts emerged from the anger and frustration of the black masses who were helpless in the face of persistent discrimination.

Respecting and supporting equal rights for Blacks ended all the conflicts and allowed blacks to play a productive role that benefited the whole society.

The Muslim militants are the product - not the cause of the anger and frustration in the Muslim countries which are helpless to defend themselves in the face of Israeli arrogance backed by unlimited US support.

In the mean time The US provides Israel with military and financial aid so they can continue their occupation of Arab lands by force for more than 32 years and disregard UN resolutions.

Respecting the rights of the Muslim countries and implementing the UN resolutions protecting the rights of the Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese would bring just peace to the Middle East. This would also restore the friendly and beneficial relations the US had with all the Muslim countries after World War II.

American national interest would significantly benefit from good relations with Arab and Muslim countries. Unfortunately, that has been totally ignored and replaced with a policy of supporting outrageous Israeli actions and policies at any price.

The Jewish influence on American foreign policy which started during the Lyndon Johnson administration and reached an unprecedented level in the Clinton administration is responsible for this shift.

The Muslim world occupies about one fourth of the world area. Muslims represent about one sixth of the World population. American Muslims outnumber American Jews in the US. Yet the media consider the Muslims invisible and portray them in the worst possible image.

American interests in the vast Muslim world are being sacrificed for the benefit of 5 million Israelis and their US supporters! Comprehensive campaign finance reform is sorely needed to free US policy from lobbies and pressure groups and focus it on real "national" interest.

Christians and Jews are better off studying their Bible which anticipated Islam, the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad. Instead of trying to beat the Muslims, Christians and Jews should join them so they can all turn to God and fulfill the promise of His creation.

Most Christians in the Middle East were converted to Christianity by Jesus and his disciples. After considering the message of the Qur'an, most of those Christians embraced Islam during the last 14 centuries because Islam delivered what the Bible promised.

Muslims are not the enemy terrorizing the West (nor Israel, instead Zionism was brought to Palestine and Aaliyah of unknown Jews flogging into Palestine through Britain and Western World effort to lease their burden from Economically being controlled by Jews, as the result Muslims and Eastern Christians were punished without any reason). They are the victims of the nonstop Crusades. Islam is not a threat to the West. It is the only religion that can solve the social and moral problems of the West.
Reply

malayloveislam
12-26-2008, 05:22 PM
We always heard about Muslim terrorist terrorizing non-Muslims, but now let us see in the other perspectives. Local Malayan Peninsular Muslim Leader and a teacher who teach Islam to locals, Hajj Muhammad Hassan or Tuk Janggut (may Allah bless his soul) being brutally Killed by British through Muslim Sultan who had been deceived by British because of power and status in Kelantan, in today Malaysia around early 19th C of British colonial time began. He was martyred in 1915.

See the pictures:

http://www.kbistari.uum.edu.my/merde...k_janggut1.jpg

http://www.kbistari.uum.edu.my/merde...k_janggut2.jpg

He and his pupils had to pay expansive price for the freedom of his mother-land. His corpse was degraded and humiliated by British. Where is the message of Love practiced by Christians in their rhetoric, the teaching of love?
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
No, but it is written in the Old Testament that whoever blesses Israel and the Jewish people God will bless, and whoever curses them he will curse. And do you have a link to what Christian Arabs believe? And by chance would these happen to be Arab Catholics?
Ah, but 'Israel' is Jacob.. yasry be lyel.. has nothing to do with the colonial settler state of Israel-- here is a link to what christian arabs would like

http://www.mideastwatch.com/

Well, it's not like I don't have a testimony. I can see if I didn't have a lifestyle that backed up my beliefs. My life testifies to the truth of the Bible. I can't just sit here and deny what Christ has personally done for me.
I have no idea what that means.. it is nice and hyperbolic!

In terms of why Christ has to descend on a cloud, this is what the Bible says:

'But I would not have you be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.' 1 Thessalonians 3: 13-18.

It just says that Christians will meet the Lord 'in the air,' or in the sky.

It says the same thing in 1st Corinthians:

'Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortatlity.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?' I Corinthians 15: 51-56.
Again, a great big hyperbole.. I am not sure what your quoting your scriptures has to do with anything, I don't loan much credence to the dreams of Paul or visions of Thomas, so please spare me..

I think you are confusing the Second Coming with the rapture. I think it says in Revelation somewhere that Jesus will return to Earth in a cloud, but I don't know the reasoning behind it, or why he would return in that way. Perhaps it would be akin to a herald, so those both for and against Christ can know that the tribulation is over or something, and that final judgement and deliverance are on their way.
you are entitled to your beliefs.. they mean nothing to the rest of us!

cheers
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-26-2008, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
Actually, Israel had to become a nation again in these last days so that Christ can return. Only the Messianic Jews really understand the Torah, because they have received God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. And in terms of Islam leaving Israel alone, take a look at what's in Pslams:

'They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.' Pslams 83: 4.
Sorry but you should take another look at JEWISH not christian prophecies. The Jews belive the Messiah was to establish the nation of Israel. Jesus did not establish a nation and did not rule over one.

You are picking a subsect of Judaism that conveniently fits your own theology.
The vast majority of Jews rejected Jesus because he, according to them, did not fulfill their prophecies.


Quran: Then, when they forgot that whereof they had been reminded, We opened unto them the gates of all things till, even as they were rejoicing in that which they were given, We seized them unawares, and lo! they were dumbfounded.

The Jews and Christians forgot the true message of Allah. So now as a test God gave them everything good in the world. Christians have the most powerful nations, the Jews are terrorizing the middle east in Israel. Your view of world events is backward. YOU guys are in control right now, but God will turn the tables again soon.
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by malayloveislam
When talking about Jews who suffers, what about Muslims who had suffered during Crusade Knights conquering Jerusalem?

Holy War (Jihad): http://home.att.net/~a.f.aly/jihad.htm

Non - Muslim authors accuse Muslims of spreading Islam by the sword, by waging holy wars. They ignore the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today. They cannot find a trace of evidence showing that swords or force of any kind are responsible for the current high rate of conversion to Islam.

The concepts of "holy war" and "just war" were developed by the Holy (Christian) Roman Empire to force the pacifist Middle Eastern Christians into the Roman army. These Christians believed in turning the other cheek and renounced violence for 3 centuries before the Romans converted to Christianity under the rule of Constantine.

It is not surprising that the Christian Roman Empire was militant, It's first emperor believed he conquered Rome after a vision in which he saw a cross over the sun and heard a voice telling him that he would win under the religion of the cross.

Those who claim that Jesus preached only love and peace ignore Jesus' words: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." [Matthew 10:34]. " Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. [Matthew 21:18,19].

Jesus died in his thirties leaving behind few followers. He was not responsible for a new nation under siege by the hostile Persian and Holy Roman Empires as Muhammad was.

Western authors erroneously translate the Arabic term jihad to mean holy war. Jihad means struggle or resistance. Muhammad defined the struggle with the self to be a better person or to resist temptation as the major jihad. He also defined the struggle with others to defend the Muslim Nation and to resist their threat as the minor jihad.

Islam is spreading today for the same reasons it spread rapidly in the past (since the time of Abraham). Islam presents the seeker with a natural, sound, logical, believable, practical, simple, balanced and achievable belief and practice system. Islam does not contradict human nature or modern science.

The Qur'an anticipated many of the modern scientific discoveries which were beyond human imagination 14 centuries ago. This separates the Qur'an from other religious texts.

The Qur'an advises against using force to change people's religion [Qur'an 2:256] or being the aggressor [Qur'an 2:190]. Muslims are asked to refrain from vengeance against prisoners of war or civilians in defeated regions [Qur'an 16:126,127; 8:67]. Muslims were bound by the guidelines of the Qur'an since they fought and did everything, in the name of God.

Muslims fought against the rulers who opposed them and their armies not against the people or their institutions. Non - Muslims were admitted to Muslim Universities. Those who excelled became top advisers to Muslim leaders regardless of race, religion, color, or ethnic background. This was another factor which accelerated the spread of Islam.

A search for the word "kill" found it 442 times in the Revised Standard Version, and 271 times in the King James Version of the Bible compared to 40 times in the Pickthall Version and 22 times in the Yusuf-Ali Version of the Qur'an!

The facts show that Islam tolerates non - Muslim minorities within the Muslim Nation and treats them as independent nations free to worship and live according to their own religious laws. This was outlined in the Covenant of Medina which became the world's first written constitution in 622 AD.

In contrast, the Christian Romans used force to convert all the countries under their dominion to Christianity. When Roman Catholicism became the state religion, the Romans persecuted the Orthodox Christians who did not convert. The number of Orthodox Christians killed by Rome reached 200,000 which is huge considering the small population of Egypt at the time (elshaab.com, 1/4/99, page2).

The spread of Islam in the 7th century threatened the Romans and Persians who shared dominion over Arabia and collected heavy taxes from the Arabs. This led to a series of wars between the Romans and Persians on one side and the Muslims on the other.

The Muslims won the war with Persia and restricted the Romans to Asia minor until the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople in the 16th century. This spread the Muslim influence over the civilized world from the seventh to the fourteenth centuries. The way Muslims conducted the affairs of state and their personal lives led many Christians, Jews and others to embrace Islam.

Muslims in Europe:

When the Muslims ruled European countries including Spain, Portugal, southern France, southern Italy, and Sicily; Christians and Jews thrived and were allowed in Muslim Universities. This gave Europeans the scientific and artistic tools which helped them start the Renaissance several centuries later when the hold of the Catholic Church over Europe was weakened.

Muslim taxes were a fraction of the Roman taxes. Muslims considered their sphere of influence as one nation. They did not transfer wealth from the countries they occupied to Arabia or practice genocide against the native population like what had been practiced by Portugal, Britain, Holland, and the US.

When the tables were turned and the Catholic Spaniards defeated the Muslims in Spain and Portugal, they instituted the Spanish Inquisition which killed or expelled millions of Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity. The Jews suffered a similar fate at the hands of the Spaniards.

While millions of Christians and Jews continue to thrive in the Muslim countries after 14 centuries of Muslim domination, there is no trace of the millions of Muslims who lived for centuries in Spain and Portugal. Evidence of their past existence can only be found in beautiful palaces like Alhambra in Granada, flamenco music and dancing, Portuguese fado singing, and the abundance of Arabic words in the Spanish and Portuguese languages.

The Crusades:

The "real" holy wars were waged by the Crusaders against the Muslims in the Middle East. The Crusaders were brutal in their treatment of Muslim prisoners of war and civilians. When the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem, they killed 70,000 Muslims. When the Muslims re-conquered the city they did not kill anybody.

Orthodox Christians in Palestine were considered heretics and therefore did not escape the Crusaders' brutality. The Orthodox Churches, which were safe during centuries of Muslim rule, were looted by the Crusaders. The Holy Grail was not the only thing the Crusaders took from the Orthodox churches.

When Muslims ended the Crusades by re-conquering Acre from the Crusaders, Pope Nicolas IV barred Christians from selling timber to Muslims. This embargo did not result in persecution of the Christians in the Muslim countries.

Napoleonic Crusade:

The Crusades were not an unfortunate episode during the dark age in Europe that ended a long time ago. When Napoleon invaded Egypt, he ordered his troops to destroy the face of the sphinx and the tip of the great pyramid to leave his mark on them.

His cavalry desecrated al-Azhar mosque, the Muslim World's equivalent of the Vatican and the first university in the world, with their horses. The French soldiers burned the rare manuscripts in its library to keep warm.

Napoleon was proud that he had ordered beheading 5-6 people daily and parading their heads in the streets to scare the population!

After defeating the Turks in Jaffa, Napoleon ordered his troops to kill about 2500 Turkish soldiers from the city garrison who surrendered. The soldiers were led to the shore and the French kept firing at them until they ran out of ammunition then finished them off with bayonets. The water turned red from the blood of the slain Turks. In the city, the killing, raping, looting and burning lasted for 2 days and did not stop until the French troops were too exhausted to continue.

When a survivor of the Jaffa massacre killed a French general, his hands were cut, his wrists were burned then he was impaled. After his slow death, his head was severed and was given to a French surgeon who showed the skull to his students in Paris as an example of a terrorist and a criminal.

It seems that the principles of the French revolution: Freedom, equality and brotherhood did not apply to Muslims! This was later confirmed when the French occupied Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia and declared them French territories. The French citizenship was given to Jews and Christians but not to Muslims!

Modern Crusades:

When general Allenby, the commander of the British forces in the Middle East during World War I, entered Jerusalem and Damascus he proclaimed the end of the Crusades.

Nazi Crusade:

Abdel Wahab El-Messeri (Al-Ahram Weekly, 23 - 29 December 1999, Issue No. 461) reported:

"In the course of my research for the Encyclopedia of Jews, Judaism and Zionism, I was surprised to find how frequently the word "Muselmann" (Muslim) appeared in the Auschwitz concentration camp lists. According to one source, the victims who were led off to the gas chambers were called "aliens" ((??)) and according to other sources, "Muselmanner". In the Encyclopedia Judaica, I came across the following entry:

"Muselmann (Muslim in German) was a commonly used terms in the concentration camps, used to refer to the prisoners who were on the brink of death, that is to say those who began to show the final symptoms of starvation, disease, mental apathy and physical weakness. The term was primarily used in Auschwitz, but was also used in other camps."

We see here an epitome of one central dimension of the Western mentality. Whenever it destroys its victims it perceives them as "other," and the other, since the time of the Crusades, has always been the Muslim. In the Middle Ages, moreover, Muslims and Jews were closely linked in the Western mind. One can find, for instance, many paintings which portray the Prophet Muhammad (born 570 AD) flogging Christ.

The Nazi experience is an authentic product of this Western mindset. The Nazis were the standard bearers of this vision. They epitomised the Western confrontation with the oriental civilisation closest to Europe: the Islamic civilisation. They never forgot this burden, even when annihilating millions of inhabitants of Europe. The connotation of the term "Muselmann" was simply extended to include the "other" in general, whether Slavs, Jews or Gypsies (as has occurred in a similar manner with the word "Arab" in Zionist discourse). The writer of the preceding entry in the Encyclopedia Judaica attempted to explain how this term came into currency in the camps. The Nazis' victims, he said, would crouch cross-legged in the "oriental" manner and the expression on their faces would be wooden, as lifeless as a mask. One notes that the writer, in his definition, made no attempt to avoid the customary Western stereotype of Muslims. He simply substituted the word "oriental" for "Muselmann"."

Terrorist and fundamentalist have frequently replaced the word "oriental".

Muslims revere Moses, Jesus and all the prophets and consider Judaism and Christianity earlier phases of the primordial religion of God: Islam. The Muslims in Bulgaria, for example, were very active in protecting Jewish groups from persecution, and King Hussein V of Morocco refused to hand over his Jewish subjects to the Vichy government in France.

Unfortunately, Jews and Christians do not recognize Islam or the Prophet Muhammad's mission. Most Christians and Jews consider Muslims sinners who are not chosen by God or saved and are, therefore, not entitled to equal or humane treatment.

Jewish Crusade:

The United Nations records document countless atrocities against Muslim civilians by the Jews in Palestine. Infamous examples are the massacres in Kafr Qasim, Dir Yasin by the Jewish terrorist gangs before the UN divided Palestine into a Palestinian and Jewish states.

An Israeli historian uncovered credible evidence that troops massacred 200 Palestinians in a single village on the day Israel came into being in 1948.

Teddy Katz, who researched events in the village of Tantura for a masters degree, said he had spoken to witnesses including soldiers who were present to support his findings.

``It started at night and was over in a few hours,'' Katz said 14 Israeli soldiers were killed in the ambush on the village. Tantura, near Haifa in northern Israel, had 1,500 residents at the time. It was later demolished to make way for a parking lot for a nearby beach and the Nahsholim kibbutz, or cooperative farm.

Katz said the killing spree in Tantura was more tragic and bigger than in the village of Deir Yassin just west of Jerusalem, where scores of Palestinians were killed on April 9, 1948, in an assault by Jewish armed groups.

Reports just after the Deir Yassin killings spoke of some 240 deaths. Up to 700,000 Palestinians fled from their towns and villages or were driven out by Jewish troops in the conflict between Arab and Jew that surrounded Israel's creation.

Fawzi Tanji, now 73 and a refugee at a camp in the West Bank, is from Tantura and worked until May 1948 as a guard for the army in British Mandate Palestine.

He told Reuters he had watched as Israeli troops took over the village, lined men up against a cemetery wall and shot them. Katz said 95 men were killed at the cemetery.

``I was 21 years old then. They took a group of 10 men, lined them up against the cemetery wall and killed them. Then they brought another group, killed them, threw away the bodies and so on,'' Tanji said.

The Israeli newspaper Maariv, which reported Katz's findings Wednesday, quoted the commander of the Tantura attack as saying his troops had no grounds to ask questions or spare lives.

``It was war...When you see the enemy opposite you, he doesn't have a note saying he doesn't mean to shoot you. When you see him, you shoot him,'' retired colonel Bentz Pridan said. (New York Times, January 19, 2000)

Other infamous massacres include the massacres in Palestinian refugee camps in Sabra and Shatila, and the recent massacre in Qana (where Jesus once attended a wedding and changed water into wine!) More than 200 women, children and old men who were seeking shelter near a UN camp were killed by deliberate Israeli bombing.

Israel occupied southern Lebanon for 20 years. In 1978, UN Security Council Resolution 425 called " upon Israel immediately to cease its military action against Lebanese territorial integrity and withdraw forthwith its forces from all Lebanese territory.

Instead of complying with the UN Security Council Resolution, Israel invaded additional Lebanese territory in 1982, 1993, and 1996 killing tens of thousands and displaced hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians.

Israel has been holding scores of innocent Lebanese hostages, some for more than a decade, in prisons in Israel and Israeli-occupied south Lebanon. Recent news reports also suggest that Israel has been systematically stealing fertile topsoil from Israeli-occupied southern Lebanon and trucking it to Israel.

The value of property, seized by Israel from 700,000 Palestinians who fled Palestine when the Jewish terrorists announced the formation of Israel in 1948, is estimated at more than 6 billion dollars excluding interest.

Violation of the civil, religious and human rights of the Muslim and Christian minorities in Israel, which are 18% of the population, had no effect on the flow of unlimited aid to Israel. Israel has destroyed about 400 mosques and 400 churches since the UN divided Palestine into Palestinian and Jewish States in 1948.

It seems that the US policy of linking foreign aid to human rights and religious persecution records of foreign countries does not apply to Israel.

Serbian Crusade:

The Serb Christians waged war on the Muslim civilians in Bosnia and Kosovo. In Bosnia, more than 200,000 Muslims have been killed and more than 1400 mosques have been destroyed or damaged. About 200 villages have been destroyed in Kosovo and about 250,000 refugees have fled for their lives.

When the Serb Christians invaded Kosovo, they destroyed all mosques despite the fact that the Christian monasteries were safe for centuries in the predominantly Muslim Kosovo.

Double Standards:

The mentality of the Crusades still exists today under the guise of fighting terrorists or Muslim fundamentalists, or fighting the spread of weapons of mass destruction (meaning leaving the Muslim countries vulnerable to the threat of mass destruction by Israel or others), or stemming the tide of immigration by North Africans to Europe."

The economic sanctions, advocated by Pope Nicolas IV, continue today against Muslim countries labelled by the State Department as "rogue nations" or "nations that sponsor terrorism" or "nations that violate civil rights of minorities" or "nations that oppose peace with Israel"

Despite the media's attempts to demonize the Muslims, the facts show that about 80% of the 23 million refugees in the world today are Muslims!

The facts contradict all the rhetoric by the media and government officials linking Muslims to terrorism. The State Department's "Patterns of Global Terrorism" 1997 report, there were 123 anti-U.S. attacks in that year; 97 occurred in Latin America, seven took place in Europe and six in Asia. The Middle East ranked fourth as a location of anti-American attacks.

The previous State Department report showed a similar pattern. In 1996, there were 73 anti-American attacks world-wide; 58 were in Latin America, eight in Europe and three in the Middle East.

When the Afghani Mujahideen ( those who conduct Jihad ), aided by fighters from Saudi Arabia trained and armed by the US, fought the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, they were hailed as freedom fighters. Jihad was good in those days. The US was calling for a worldwide Islamic Jihad against the Soviets.

When the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were quickly denounced as terrorists because of their opposition to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian, Syrian, and Lebanese territories.

Christian fundamentalists are waging a Crusade to end the separation between church and state in the US and put the first nail in the coffin of the American system of government. They have replaced modern science with the Bible in their schools. They advocate a pre-renaissance philosophy. This proves the Muslims provided the knowledge that launched the Renaissance in Europe. It is ironic that the West opposes Muslim fundamentalists who teach evolution in their schools.

Some Christian fundamentalists even turned to violence when they could not impose their views legally and killed law enforcement officers in Waco and bombed abortion clinics in several cities. The government and the media never refer to the threat of Christian fundamentalists.

Jewish fundamentalists murdered Rabin, their own prime minister, when he finally saw the light. Rabin realized that Israel has to make peace with the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab World to secure its long term prospects in the region.

Jewish fundamentalists oppose peace and conduct demonstrations with banners calling for killing the Arabs. Many of these fundamentalists have killed Palestinian civilians and desecrated the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem and were either never arrested or quickly released from police custody because there were judged mentally unstable.

These activities are never reported by the media in the US the way they cover suicide bombings by desperate militants who have lost everything to illegal destruction of their homes and killing of their family members by the Israeli government or by Jewish settlers who are illegally taking over Palestinian territories and barring Palestinians from access to their farms and places of worship to pressure them into submission to the illegal status quo.

The West ignores the threat of Christian and Jewish fundamentalists while actively opposing Muslim fundamentalists, even when they are democratically elected.

The military takeovers of the elected governments in Algeria, Sierra Leone, Tajikistan and Turkey were encouraged by the West. However, the military takeover of the elected government in Haiti was not tolerated. The UN authorized a US invasion to return the elected government to power.

The Crusade against Iraq:

The US vetoed many UN decisions condemning Israeli actions. The Muslim countries were told peace can be achieved only by direct negotiations with Israel. Military action or sanctions against Israel were never options for attaining peace in the Middle East.

This policy did not apply to Iraq - the former US ally during the Iran/Iraq war. The US obtained a UN decision against Iraq the day following the invasion of Kuwait. Kuwait had been a province of Iraq until the British decided to make it a separate protectorate after World War I. Iraq was not allowed (like Israel) 32 years of procrastination and frivolous negotiations with the Sheik of Kuwait. In short, there was no peace process.

Iraq was bombed into the stone age and unprecedented sanctions were imposed which led to the death of more than one million Iraqis to-date. A whole generation of Iraqis was murdered by the sanctions against Iraq since 1991. Swift military action is ready to kill more Iraqis if they protest the frivolous inspections that have been going on all these years.

More than 270 teams of inspectors have conducted 9340 inspections. Since 1991, the inspectors verified the destruction of 30 warheads, 18 ballistic missiles, 700,000 tons of chemicals they claimed could produce weapons, and 40,000 tons of chemicals that could be used in weapons.

The inspectors claim they still need to do their work. The US maintains the sanctions will continue until the inspectors "finish" their work.

Americans who oppose the U.S. government's policy on Iraq ended a Christmas visit Tuesday meant to focus attention on the suffering of Iraqi children (December 28, 1999 9:32 a.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com).

During their weeklong visit, the group spent Christmas among the Iraqi Christian community in Basra, a city some 335 miles south of Baghdad.

"We spent Christmas morning in one of the hospitals where we saw for ourselves infants dying because there is never enough medicine," said Chuck Quilty of Rock Island, Ill., one of eight American Catholics in the Voices in the Wilderness delegation.

UN officials keep resigning in protest of the sanctions against the Iraqi people. The latest resignations came February 14, 2000 from Hans von Sponeck the top UN official in Iraq and Jutta Burghardt the head of the World Food Program.

Current Crusade:

Unfortunately, the holy war against Islam will continue to claim more Muslim victims in the foreseeable future. In an effort to keep the military industrial complex going after the end of the cold war, Islam has been targeted as the new enemy and new threats have been invented. This keeps tax payers' subsidies flowing to the cold war industry and protects it from competition from the productive economy.

The US spends more on the military than the rest of the world combined. The government needs terrorists and Islamophobia to justify this level of military expenditures. It is ironic that the current most dangerous enemies, according to the US government, were trained and armed by the US!

The US accounts for half of the weapons exports around the world. These exports need wars and conflicts to sustain them. This is a major disappointment to all the people who hoped that the collapse of the Berlin Wall would bring world peace and prosperity for all.

The oil producing countries in the Middle East purchase a significant portion of the US arms sales. US taxpayers subsidize massive military aid to Israel. A just peace in the Middle East would eliminate most of the US arms sales.

Muslim militants in the Middle East are resisting Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Lebanon, and Syria. This occupation violates international law and numerous UN resolutions. Targeting the militants will not bring peace to the Middle East but will bring the downfall of the moderate leaders. Ending the occupation will bring peace and help the moderates on both sides build a better future for all the people in the Middle East.

The racial conflicts in the US in the 1960s offer a useful analogy. The assassinations of Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and militant black leaders did not end the riots and the strife. The conflicts were not obviously caused by the militants. The militants and the conflicts emerged from the anger and frustration of the black masses who were helpless in the face of persistent discrimination.

Respecting and supporting equal rights for Blacks ended all the conflicts and allowed blacks to play a productive role that benefited the whole society.

The Muslim militants are the product - not the cause of the anger and frustration in the Muslim countries which are helpless to defend themselves in the face of Israeli arrogance backed by unlimited US support.

In the mean time The US provides Israel with military and financial aid so they can continue their occupation of Arab lands by force for more than 32 years and disregard UN resolutions.

Respecting the rights of the Muslim countries and implementing the UN resolutions protecting the rights of the Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese would bring just peace to the Middle East. This would also restore the friendly and beneficial relations the US had with all the Muslim countries after World War II.

American national interest would significantly benefit from good relations with Arab and Muslim countries. Unfortunately, that has been totally ignored and replaced with a policy of supporting outrageous Israeli actions and policies at any price.

The Jewish influence on American foreign policy which started during the Lyndon Johnson administration and reached an unprecedented level in the Clinton administration is responsible for this shift.

The Muslim world occupies about one fourth of the world area. Muslims represent about one sixth of the World population. American Muslims outnumber American Jews in the US. Yet the media consider the Muslims invisible and portray them in the worst possible image.

American interests in the vast Muslim world are being sacrificed for the benefit of 5 million Israelis and their US supporters! Comprehensive campaign finance reform is sorely needed to free US policy from lobbies and pressure groups and focus it on real "national" interest.

Christians and Jews are better off studying their Bible which anticipated Islam, the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad. Instead of trying to beat the Muslims, Christians and Jews should join them so they can all turn to God and fulfill the promise of His creation.

Most Christians in the Middle East were converted to Christianity by Jesus and his disciples. After considering the message of the Qur'an, most of those Christians embraced Islam during the last 14 centuries because Islam delivered what the Bible promised.

Muslims are not the enemy terrorizing the West (nor Israel, instead Zionism was brought to Palestine and Aaliyah of unknown Jews flogging into Palestine through Britain and Western World effort to lease their burden from Economically being controlled by Jews, as the result Muslims and Eastern Christians were punished without any reason). They are the victims of the nonstop Crusades. Islam is not a threat to the West. It is the only religion that can solve the social and moral problems of the West.
Yes, and this is why the Roman Catholic Church is the biggest stumbling to people accepting Christ, and the world's greatest deception. And Jesus did not mean warfare when he said that, he was talking about separation in terms of families and friends being divided over you (as a person) accepting him. What we are experiencing now in this time of grace is a great divide, those who accept Christ, and those who do not.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Ah, but 'Israel' is Jacob.. yasry be lyel.. has nothing to do with the colonial settler state of Israel
No, this is not true. Israel does mean the Jewish people today and even the state of Israel. God has not broken his covenant with those whom he foreknew, that would make him unjust.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
-- here is a link to what christian arabs would like

http://www.mideastwatch.com/
I read the letter from Baghdad, thoughts on the Palestinian Question. It is my belief that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict will not be solved until the Second Coming. And I've heard a Christian gentlemen who put forth a scenario that Christ, when he returns, would give the Palestinians who accept them their own state, so that he could begin to heal the psyche of all those involved. Of course, I don't know how he will heal, but I just know that he will.


format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I have no idea what that means.. it is nice and hyperbolic!
I was mainly talking about how the Lord has delivered me from a life of sin.
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mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Sorry but you should take another look at JEWISH not christian prophecies. The Jews belive the Messiah was to establish the nation of Israel. Jesus did not establish a nation and did not rule over one.

You are picking a subsect of Judaism that conveniently fits your own theology.
The vast majority of Jews rejected Jesus because he, according to them, did not fulfill their prophecies.


Quran: Then, when they forgot that whereof they had been reminded, We opened unto them the gates of all things till, even as they were rejoicing in that which they were given, We seized them unawares, and lo! they were dumbfounded.

The Jews and Christians forgot the true message of Allah. So now as a test God gave them everything good in the world. Christians have the most powerful nations, the Jews are terrorizing the middle east in Israel. Your view of world events is backward. YOU guys are in control right now, but God will turn the tables again soon.
All of those prophecies concerning the Messiah that the Jewish people are looking for will happen during the Second Coming. The reason the Jews have not accepted Christ is because God has placed a veil over their eyes, so that we all might start out in unbelief.
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos



No, this is not true. Israel does mean the Jewish people today and even the state of Israel. God has not broken his covenant with those whom he foreknew, that would make him unjust.
No it doesn't.. to begin with Jew=yahoodi = man itaba3a alhouda.. Israel means Jacob on the account he used to yasri be'layel to God, the suffix (el) means to God, a name given to Jacob since he used to seek God by night-- you are so ignorant it is kind of frightening.. maybe you should stop learning at the hands of falwel?


I read the letter from Baghdad, thoughts on the Palestinian Question. It is my belief that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict will not be solved until the Second Coming. And I've heard a Christian gentlemen who put forth a scenario that Christ, when he returns, would give the Palestinians who accept them their own state, so that he could begin to heal the psyche of all those involved. Of course, I don't know how he will heal, but I just know that he will.
Hilarious-- screw all the Palestinians now because we have to wait for your 'alleged God' to set things aright -- please give me a break man


I was mainly talking about how the Lord has delivered me from a life of sin.
Good for you
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
No it doesn't.. to begin with Jew=yahoodi = man itaba3a alhouda.. Israel means Jacob on the account he used to yasri be'layel to God, the suffix (el) means to God, a name given to Jacob since he used to seek God by night-- you are so ignorant it is kind of frightening.. maybe you should stop learning at the hands of falwel?




Hilarious-- screw all the Palestinians now because we have to wait for your 'alleged God' to set things aright -- please give me a break man



Good for you
Well, you can either accept what someone whose Christian has to say, or you can choose to reject it. The most effective thing I can do as a Christian in this enviornment (the anonymous Internet) is just lead someone in the right direction, like suggesting watching Christian television or something. You can be sure, however, that you cannot live the Christian lifestyle apart from Christ, and that there is no equivalent lifestyle in any other religious form.
Reply

Chuck
12-26-2008, 06:56 PM
The rapture:
A man dashes into the Pope's office, panting, gasping, and trying to speak all at once.
"What's the matter?" the Pope asks, offering the man a seat.
"Oh your Grace!" the man exclaims, flopping on the chair. "I have good news and I have bad news. Which would you like to hear first?"
"Give me the good news," the Pope says.
"Oh your Grace! JESUS is on the phone and he wants to speak to you!" the panting man exclaims.
"Praise the Lord!" the jubilant Pope replies, "What could the bad news possibly be?"
"Your Grace, he's calling from Mecca!"
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-26-2008, 07:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
The rapture:
Pure awesome.:thumbs_up:D
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
Well, you can either accept what someone whose Christian has to say, or you can choose to reject it. The most effective thing I can do as a Christian in this enviornment (the anonymous Internet) is just lead someone in the right direction, like suggesting watching Christian television or something. You can be sure, however, that you cannot live the Christian lifestyle apart from Christ, and that there is no equivalent lifestyle in any other religious form.
I have already shown you what someone christian from Palestine (medhat credi) has to say, making our brand of Christianity rather monolithic .. apart from that when it comes to your beliefs we part ways.. I will not worship a man!


cheers
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
The rapture:
:haha: that was hilarious

Jazaka Allah khyran

:w:
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I have already shown you what someone christian from Palestine (medhat credi) has to say, making our brand of Christianity rather monolithic .. apart from that when it comes to your beliefs we part ways.. I will not worship a man!


cheers
If the "Christian" you quoted was Catholic or doesn't recognize that Jesus is the Son of God then he doesn't have an ounce of Jesus.
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 09:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
If the "Christian" you quoted was Catholic then he probably doesn't have an ounce of Jesus.
Medhat credi is Coptic-- funny how they themselves view you as heretics :D

cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Medhat credi is Coptic-- funny how they themselves view you as heretics :D

cheers
I edited my post. Basically I was saying if he doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God then he doesn't have an ounce of him. Basically he has a form of godliness, but denying its power, and there's a whole lot of those people walking around.
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جوري
12-26-2008, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
I edited my post. Basically I was saying if he doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God then he doesn't have an ounce of him. Basically he has a form of godliness, but denying its power, and there's a whole lot of those people walking around.
Where on his website does it say that?
Concentrate Fedos.. you sound incoherent at best.. and tangential and circumstantial the rest of the time.. I wonder at times if you speak the same language the rest of us do.. your posts for the most part have no relevance whatsoever to what is written..

cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 09:50 PM
Well, I just checked Wikipedia and it doesn't even have a section on what Copts believe. Though I saw that there were evangelical copts and copts that are more closely related to the Roman Catholic Church.

Going back to your previous post in terms of he probably viewing me a herectic, I don't think it matters what this particular gentlemen or anyone else thinks is a herectic in the Christian faith, because if you are a professing Christian and you aren't living the life, if you don't have power over your lifestyle (given to you by almighty God) then you don't have any of Christ living inside of you. That is the determinant factor in terms of if someone is Christian or not.
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 09:56 PM
fabulous thanks for that!
The Copts believe themselves to the the only true and first Christians.. as many of you appear to be under the delusion of being!

The Coptic Church is based on the teachings of Saint Mark who brought Christianity to Egypt during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero in the first century, a dozen of years after the Lord's ascension. He was one of the four evangelists and the one who wrote the oldest canonical gospel

cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
fabulous thanks for that!
The Copts believe themselves to the the only true and first Christians.. as many of you appear to be under the delusion of being!




cheers
If you wanna talk about the 'first Christians' then you would have to be speaking of the disciples, basically the Jewish people. But it makes no difference if you are first, or the last person to accept Christ before the trumpet, so long as you accept him.
Reply

جوري
12-26-2008, 10:07 PM
Again, you have missed the point.. which is to say, Christian Arabs don't share your beliefs on the importance of the colonial settler Zionist state of Israel --

You are wasting your time otherwise with nonsense and taking up too much webspace..
No one here and I suspect most reasoning adults, accept a man for a God-- all that matters is that you are inebriated on your pipe dreams!

cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-26-2008, 10:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Again, you have missed the point.. which is to say, Christian Arabs don't share your beliefs on the importance of the colonial settler Zionist state of Israel --

You are wasting your time otherwise with nonsense and taking up too much webspace..
No one here and I suspect most reasoning adults, accept a man for a God-- all that matters is that you are inebriated on your pipe dreams!

cheers
And I was trying to explain that if these "Christian" Arabs aren't living the Christian life, then they don't have any of Christ. So it wouldn't really matter what they believe. In terms of no "reasoning adults" accepting Christ because he took on flesh, well, that is why the Holy Spirit is needed, to convict the sinner of their sin, and the Father to draw them. If that doesn't happen then they won't be saved in the first place.

But this will be my last response. As I said, you can either accept what someone whose Christian has to say, or choose to reject it. And the anonymous Internet is hardly the best conduit for witnessing, but at least you can reach people that you'd never have a chance to before.
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جوري
12-26-2008, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
And I was trying to explain that if these "Christian" Arabs aren't living the Christian life, then they don't have any of Christ
.
Amusing indeed, considering Christianity is a middle eastern religion, and Abraham(P) was originally from Ur in Iraq.. but it is always amuses them how a bunch of buclolic oafs think they know chriatnaity better.. to be honest the lot of you here or there are hilarious bas ma 3lyna

So it wouldn't really matter what they believe. In terms of no "reasoning adults" accepting Christ because he took on flesh, well, that is why the Holy Spirit is needed, to convict the sinner of their sin, and the Father to draw them. If that doesn't happen then they won't be saved in the first place.
You are confabulating again -- I think you might want to up the dose of your clozapine?
But this will be my last response. As I said, you can either accept what someone whose Christian has to say, or choose to reject it. And the anonymous Internet is hardly the best conduit for witnessing, but at least you can reach people that you'd never have a chance to before.
you should start in your own community or at hooters or maybe tackle your porn industry, or Vegas.. you have alot of Christians astray right in your ally.. why don't you sell them the man/God/Mother and alter ego before going to the birth place of civilization and selling them bull that they apparently don't want to eat here?

cheers
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BlackHeart
12-31-2008, 03:04 AM
Thank you Brothers,

I am but a messenger like Johah, who was in the belly of a whale.

The Lord asked me to post this message.

I see that you are a holy and wise people, full of grace and wisdom. I hope that I as a Christian am not an Infidel before you.

Peace and blessing upon you in the name of Allah.

BlackHeart. ( Magnetar )
Reply

north_malaysian
12-31-2008, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Thank you Brothers,

I am but a messenger like Johah, who was in the belly of a whale.
like prophet Younes?
Reply

جوري
12-31-2008, 03:47 AM
a self-appointed prophet me thinkus -- why Jonah why not Enoch or some other? :lol:
Prophets are a done deal with the seal of the prophets... any self-proclaimed prophet here on forth is either unwell (in the head), or a Tartuffe but still unwell as it is rather a task to undertake!

cheers
Reply

BlackHeart
12-31-2008, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
a self-appointed prophet me thinkus -- why Jonah why not Enoch or some other? :lol:
Prophets are a done deal with the seal of the prophets... any self-proclaimed prophet here on forth is either unwell (in the head), or a Tartuffe but still unwell as it is rather a task to undertake!

cheers
Rather a prohet who fears the great day of the Lord. Arrogance shall disappear in the presence of his wrath. Those who are lifted up shall be cast down at his mighty power.

Those who receive Yeshua and beleive on him shall be saved. The vultures gather to receive his body.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
12-31-2008, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Rather a prohet who fears the great day of the Lord. Arrogance shall disappear in the presence of his wrath. Those who are lifted up shall be cast down at his mighty power.

Those who receive Yeshua and beleive on him shall be saved. The vultures gather to receive his body.
You might want to fear Yeshua (peace be upon him) disowning you. He will come back to you and break the cross and free you from your morbid blood atonement.

Take a lesson from the Bible:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."


Who is claiming to make prophecies and miracles in his name? The Jews? Nope. The Muslims? Nope. You. And he will disown you because you worshipped him.

You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

Peace
Reply

جوري
12-31-2008, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Rather a prohet who fears the great day of the Lord. Arrogance shall disappear in the presence of his wrath. Those who are lifted up shall be cast down at his mighty power.

Those who receive Yeshua and beleive on him shall be saved. The vultures gather to receive his body.
Good for you man..

أَفَحَسِبَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَن يَتَّخِذُوا عِبَادِي مِن دُونِي أَوْلِيَاء إِنَّا أَعْتَدْنَا جَهَنَّمَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ نُزُلًا {102}
[Pickthal 18:102] Do the disbelievers reckon that they can choose My bondmen as protecting friends beside Me? Lo! We have prepared hell as a welcome for the disbelievers.

قُلْ هَلْ نُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِالْأَخْسَرِينَ أَعْمَالًا {103}
[Pickthal 18:103] Say: Shall We inform you who will be the greatest losers by their works?

الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَهُمْ يَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّهُمْ يُحْسِنُونَ صُنْعًا {104}
[Pickthal 18:104] Those whose effort goeth astray in the life of the world, and yet they reckon that they do good work.

أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَلِقَائِهِ فَحَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ فَلَا نُقِيمُ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَزْنًا {105}
[Pickthal 18:105] Those are they who disbelieve in the revelations of their Lord and in the meeting with Him. Therefor their works are vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We assign no weight to them.

ذَلِكَ جَزَاؤُهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ بِمَا كَفَرُوا وَاتَّخَذُوا آيَاتِي وَرُسُلِي هُزُوًا {106}
[Pickthal 18:106] That is their reward: hell, because they disbelieved, and made a jest of Our revelations and Our messengers.


so good luck.. I am off to pray Maghrib to the one God, who took no spouses, no sons and no alter egos, the one who doesn't abrogate his own commandments in a covert fashion in the dreams of charlatans!

cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-31-2008, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
You might want to fear Yeshua (peace be upon him) disowning you. He will come back to you and break the cross and free you from your morbid blood atonement.

Take a lesson from the Bible:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness
."


Who is claiming to make prophecies and miracles in his name? The Jews? Nope. The Muslims? Nope. You. And he will disown you because you worshipped him.


Peace
That is not talking about what you think. It is actually referring to the hypocrites, those people who call themselves Christian but don't have the lifestyle to back it up.
Reply

جوري
12-31-2008, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
That is not talking about what you think. It is actually referring to the hypocrites, those people who call themselves Christian but don't have the lifestyle to back it up.
That in fact would be all sects of Christianity no? Seems at the very marrow of their beliefs, something rather very contradictory to God's being, commandments, and what Jesus preached!


cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-31-2008, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
That in fact would be all sects of Christianity no? Seems at the very marrow of their beliefs, something rather very contradictory to God's being, commandments, and what Jesus preached!


cheers
No, even in the Old Testament, in the Jewish scriptures, we have scriptures which point to the Trinity. Such as Pslams 110: 1, which states:

'The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Which, when Jesus referenced it to the Pharisees (in Matthew 22: 42-46) they were silenced and ceased asking him questions. And Isiaiah 53, which ultimately explained what the Messiah would have to do.

And Psalms 16: 10, which describes the resurrection: 'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

So there are texts, even in the Old Testament, which point to the trinity, and the authority of the New Testament.
Reply

جوري
12-31-2008, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
No, even in the Old Testament, in the Jewish scriptures, we have scriptures which point to the Trinity. Such as Pslams 110: 1, which states:

'The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Which, when Jesus referenced it to the Pharisees (in Matthew 22: 42-46) they were silenced and ceased asking him questions. And Isiaiah 53, which ultimately explained what the Messiah would have to do.

And Psalms 16: 10, which describes the resurrection: 'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

So there are texts, even in the Old Testament, which point to the trinity, and the authority of the New Testament.
actually it really doesn't.. perhaps you should get your pals the Jews to explain it to you? I'd think they'd know the contents of their own books, If God were divisible, you'd think they too would be all over the man/God/wife/alter ego thing.. but they don't subscribe to the 'trinity' nor sudden change of heart of saul or the dreams of Thomas.. pretty much like the Muslims, they view you as polytheists, and paganists for kneeling before all those hand carved statues!
You are certainly free to infer what you desire.. Jesus never said, I am your God, worship me!

cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
12-31-2008, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
actually it really doesn't.. perhaps you should get your pals the Jews to explain it to you? I'd think they'd know the contents of their own books, If God were divisible, you'd think they too would be all over the man/God/wife/alter ego thing.. but they don't.. pretty much like the Muslims, they view you as polytheists, and paganists for kneeling before all those hand carved statues!
You are certainly free to infer what you desire.. Jesus never said, I am your God, worship me!

cheers
No, he never said that, because if someone actually walked up to you and said that, you wouldn't believe him. And the Jews will accept Christ enmasse during the seven year tribulation. As I've said, God has placed a veil over their eyes, partially so that we all might start out in unbelief.
Reply

جوري
12-31-2008, 10:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
No, he never said that, because if someone actually walked up to you and said that, you wouldn't believe him
.
lol.. what an exquisite argument you have there about his so-called divinity!

And the Jews will accept Christ enmasse during the seven year tribulation. As I've said, God has placed a veil over their eyes, partially so that we all might start out in unbelief.
When Jesus descends he'll break the cross, indeed the righteous Jews and Christians at the time will follow the rightly guided message, the path of Abraham!



وَقَالُواْ كُونُواْ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَى تَهْتَدُواْ قُلْ بَلْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ {135}
[Pickthal 2:135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them: Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.


You want to be of the idolaters (which you are) be my guest, just stop bugging everyone else about it-- you prove nothing to me, quoting hordes of Saulian nonsense!

cheers
Reply

BlackHeart
01-01-2009, 09:23 PM
Brothers and Sisters,

What can you tell me about the "Great day of the Lord"?

I saw a video where a teacher of Islam said that the earth will come to a halt and then turn the other direction. Is this in the Koran somewhere?

Peace and blessings be upon you.
Reply

aadil77
01-01-2009, 09:27 PM
you should know since you're a prophet:D

the great day of the the lord? you mean the day of ressurection
Reply

جوري
01-01-2009, 09:33 PM
funny guy
here are a few links.. enjoy

http://thetruth.hypermart.net/wrath/0_preface.htm

uses your books too, a refreshing different perspective

and here is a quick read

Said the Holy Prophet PBUH:

"You will invade the Arabian Peninsula and God will grant it. Then Persia and God will grant it. Then you shall invade Ar-Rum (Europe) and God will grant it. Then you shall attack the Antichrist and God shall give him to you"The Messenger of God was then asked "which of the two cities will be conquered first - Constantinople or Rome?" and the Holy Prophet PBUH replied : " The city of Heraclius (Constantinople) will be conquered FIRST"

Prophethood (meaning himself) will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to
remain, then Allah will raise it up wherever he wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will
be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood remaining with you for as
long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, He will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it
up. Afterwards, there will be a reign of violently oppressive [Umayyad, Abbasids, Ottomans etc]
rule and it will remain with you for as long as Allah
wills it to remain. Then, there will be a reign of tyrannical rule
(current nationalistic secular and totalitarian governments) and it will remain for as long as Allah wills it to remain.
Then, Allah will raise it up whenever He wills to raise
it up. Then, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood." Then he fell silent.


"The Caliphate will remain in my nation after me for thirty years (included Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Hassan and Hussain) . Then, it
will be a monarchy after that (Ummayad, Abbasids, Ottomans etc) ."
"Therefore, hold fast to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly
guided Caliphs, hold it between your front teeth! And beware of
innovations (in the religion), for every innovation is a bid'ah, and every
bid'ah is a deviation, and every deviation is in the Fire."

"if you see that the
Caliphate has taken its abode in the holy land, then the earthquake, the tribulations and great events are at hand, and
the Last Hour on that day will be closer to people than my hand is to your head."

"There will be an oath of allegiance according to
guidance in Jerusalem."

"You will fight the unbelievers
until the remnant of you fights on the River Jordan, you to the east of it and they to the west of it."

"God Almighty will enable you to conquer Syria after
my death, from Al- 'Arish to the Euphrates. Their men and women will be garrisoned until the Day of Judgement.
Whoever from among you chooses one of the coasts of Syria or Jerusalem is in the sacred struggle (jihad) until the
Day of Judgement"

"Day of Judgment will come...

* When it will be regarded as a shame to act on Quranic injunctions.
* When untrustworthy people will be regarded as trustworthy and the trustworthy will be regarded as untrustworthy.
* When it will be hot in winter (and vice versa).
* When the length of days is stretched, i.e. a journey of a few days is covered in a matter of hours.
* When orators and lecturers lie openly.
* When people dispute over petty issues.
* When women with children come displeased on account of them bearing offspring, and barren women remain happy on
account of having no responsibility of offspring.
* When oppression, jealousy, and greed become the order of the day.
* When people blatantly follow their passions and whims.
* When lies prevail over the truth.
* When violence, bloodshed and anarchy become common.
* When immorality overtakes shamelessness and is perpetrated publicly.
* When legislation matters pertaining to Deen is handed over to the worst elements of the Ummat, and if people accept them
and are satisfied with their findings, then such persons will not smell the fragrance of Jannat.
* When the offspring become a cause of grief and anger (for their parents). * when writing will be widespread



"The Day of Judgment will not come until :

* Music and musical instruments will be found in every home.
* People will indulge in homosexuality.
* There will be an abundance of illegitimate children.
* There will be an abundance of critics, tale-carriers, back- biters and taunters in society.
* People will establish ties with strangers and sever relations with their near and dear ones.
* Hypocrites will be in control of the affairs of the community and evil, immoral people will be at the helm of business
establishments.
* The Masjid will be decorated, but the hearts of the people will be devoid of guidance.
* The courtyards of Masjids will be built beautifully and high mimbars (pulpits) will be erected.
* Gangsters and evil people will prevail.
* Various wines will be consumed excessively.

"Count six things before the advent of the Day of Judgment :

1 My death
2 The conquest of Jerusalem
3 Mass deaths amongst you people, just as when sheep die in large numbers during an epidemic
4 Abundance of wealth to such an extent that if a person were to be given a hundred Dinars he will still not be satisfied
5 General anarchy and bloodshed, that no Arab household will be spared from it
6 Then a life of peace as a result of a peace agreement between you and the Banil Asfaar
(Romans) which they will break and attack you with a force consisting of eighty flags and under each flag will be an army of
twelve thousand men."

"The Hour will not come until :

*The disappearance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance (Bukhari & Muslim)
*Adultery and fornication will be prevalent (The Prophet, peace be upon him, said that this has never happened without new
diseases befalling the people, which their ancestors had not known.) (Bukhari & Muslim)
*Adultery and fornication will be performed in the open
*The consumption of intoxicants will be widespread (Bukhari & Muslim)
*Women will outnumber men......eventually 50:1 (Bukhari & Muslim)
*Killing, killing, killing (Bukhari & Muslim)
*The children will be filled with rage (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
*Rain will be acidic or burning (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
*Children of fornication will become widespread or prevalent (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
*When a trust becomes a means of making a profit
*Gains will be shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor
*Paying zakat becomes a burden and miserliness becomes widespread
*When a man obeys his wife and disobeys his mother; and treats his friend kindly while shunning his father
*When voices are raised in the mosques
*People will walk in the marketplace with their thighs exposed
*Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time
*The people of Iraq will recieve no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans (Europeans) (Muslim)
*People will hop between the clouds and the earth
*The leader of a people will be the worst of them
*People will treat a man with respect out of fear for some evil he might do
*Men will begin to wear silk
*Female singers and musical instruments will become popular
*People will dance late into the night
*When the last ones of the Ummah begin to curse the first ones
*People will believe in the stars
*People will reject al-Qadr (the Divine Decree of Destiny)
*Time will pass rapidly (Bukhari)
*Good deeds will decrease (Bukhari)
*Miserliness will be thrown into the hearts of people (Bukhari)
*Smog will appear over cities because of the evil that they are doing
*People will be carrying on with their trade, but their will only be a few trustworthy persons
*A man will pass by a grave and wish that he was in their place
*Earthquakes will increase
*The appearance of false messengers (30 dajjals)
*Women will be naked in spite of being dressed
*The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims
*When the sheperds of black camels start boasting and begin to compete with others in the construction of taller buildings
(Bukhari)
*Wild animals will be able to talk to humans
*A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home
*The truthful person will not be believed and the liar will be believed
*When men lie with men and women lie with women
*Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business
*A woman will enter the workforce out of love for this world
*Books will be widespread and knowledge will be low
*Arrogance will increase in the earth (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
*Family ties will be cut
*Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men

'Soon the people of IRAQ will
neither receive any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the
non-Arabs." (i.e they will prevent food from going into Iraq, in the form of "sanctions" to this day.) He then said: "Soon the people of
Shaam (SYRIA) will neither receive any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the
Romans (christians)."

"The Hour will not be established till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will
be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religion"

" Allah drew the ends of the world together for my sake. I have seen its
eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation will reach those ends which have been drawn together
near me and I have been granted the red and the white treasures. I begged my Lord that my Ummah should not
be destroyed by famine, nor be dominated by a foreign enemy who will take their lives and destroy them root and
branch. My Lord said: Muhammad, whenever I make a decision, there is none to change it. Well, I grant you that your
Ummah will not be destroyed by famine, nor will it be dominated by a foreign enemy who will take their lives and
destroy them root and branch, even if all the people from the different parts of the world join hands together (for
this purpose). However, it will be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some people will kill or imprison the
others. "

"Iraq would withhold its dirhams and qafiz; Syria would withhold its
mudd and dinar and Egypt would withhold its irdab and dinar and you would recoil to that position from where
you started and you would recoil to that position from where you started and you would recoil to the position
from where you started (i.e in Arabia) "

"The Last Hour would come (when) the Romans (West/Christians) would form a
majority amongst people (or be dominant amongst the world)."

"By Him in Whose Hand is my life, a time would come when the
murderer would not know why he has committed the murder, and the victim would not know why he has been
killed. "

"There would be in the last (phase) of the time a caliph who would
distribute wealth but would not count. "

"The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against
the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a
stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him."

"The Antichrist would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan (Iran)"

The Prophet stood on his pulpit in Medina and faced the East and said:

"Afflictions will verily emerge from here, where the top of Satan's head will appear"

"Verily , the Satan has lost all hopes that the worshippers
would ever worship him in the peninsula of Arabia, but he is hopeful that he would sow the seed of dissension
amongst them. "

"God will raise for this(muslim) community at the end of every hundred years the
one who will renovate its religion for it. "

"The building of the Bayt-al-Maqdis (in Jerusalem) will be followed by the destruction of Yathrib (Medina) which will be followed by a fierce battle, which will be followed by the conquest of Constantinople, which will be followed by the appearance of the AntiChrist". Then he put his hand on the thigh of the one with whom he was speaking and said : " This is true as the fact that you are sitting here"

"The Great war, the conquest of Constantinople and the appearnce of the Antichrist will all happen within 7 months. "

"The people will soon summon one another to attack you as people
when eating invite others to share their dish. Someone asked: Will that be because of our small numbers at that
time? He replied: No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be scum and rubbish like that carried down
by a torrent, and Allah will take fear of you from the breasts of your enemy and last enervation into your hearts.
Someone asked: What is wahn (enervation). Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): He replied: Love of the
world and dislike of death. "

"When bloody wars break out, God will send an army of the mawali (Non-Arabs)
whose horses and weapons are superior to the best of the Arabs' horses and
weapons. Through them God will strengthen the religion of Islam."

"The place of assembly of the Muslims at the time of the war will be in
al-Ghutah near a city called Damascus, one of the best cities in Syria. "

"The Last Hour will not come before there come forth thirty Dajjals
(fraudulents), everyone presuming himself that he is an apostle of Allah. "

"When the people see a wrongdoer and
do not prevent him, Allah will soon punish them all."

"enjoin one another to do what is good and forbid one another to do what is evil.
But when you see niggardliness being obeyed, passion being followed, worldly interests being preferred, everyone
being charmed with his opinion, then care for yourself, and leave alone what people in general are doing; for
ahead of you are days which will require endurance, in which showing endurance will be like grasping live coals.
The one who acts rightly during that period will have the reward of fifty men who act as he does. "

"If only one day of this time (world) remained, Allah would raise up a
man from my family who would fill this earth with justice as it has been filled with oppression. "

"This world will not come to
an end until one person from my progeny does not rule over the Arabs, and his name will be the same as my
name."

"Al Mahdi will be from my
progeny. His forehead will be broad and his nose will be high. He will fill the world with justice and fairness at a
time when the world will be filled with oppression. He will rule for seven years."

" After the death of a Ruler
there will be some dispute between the people. At that time a citizen of Madina will flee (from Madinah) and go to
Makkah. While in Makkah, certain people will approach him between Hajrul Aswad (sacred black stone on the
kaaba)and Maqaame Ibraheem (position of Abraham in the sacred Grand Mosque of Mecca), and forcefully
pledge their allegiance to him.
Thereafter a huge army will proceed from Syria to attack him but when they will be at Baida, which is between
Makkah and Madina, they will be swallowed into the ground.
On seeing this, the Abdaals of Syria as well as large numbers of people from Iraq will come to him and pledge their
allegiance to him. Then a person from the Quraish, whose uncle will be from the Bani Kalb tribe will send an army
to attack him, only to be overpowered, by the will of Allah. This (defeated) army will be that of the Bani Kalb.
Unfortunate indeed is he who does not receive a share from the booty of the Kalb. This person (Imam Mahdi) will
distribute the spoils of war after the battle. He will lead the people according to the Sunnat and during his reign
Islam will spread throughout the world. He will remain till seven years (since his emergence). He will pass away and
the Muslims will perform his Janazah salaat (funeral prayers)."

"There will be four peace
agreements between you and the Romans (the Western powers). The fourth agreement will be mediated through a
person who will be from the progeny of Hadhrat Aaron (that is will be from the priestly Levite tribe of Israel) (A.S.)
and will be upheld for seven years."
The people asked: "O Rasulullah (Prophet Muhammad), who will be the Imaam of the people at the time?"
Rasulullah (Prophet Muhammad) said: "He will be from my progeny and will be forty years of age. His face will
shine like a star and he will have a black spot on his left cheek. He will don two "Qutwaani" cloaks and will appear
exactly as a person from the Bani Israeel (Children of Israel)..."

"(Armies carrying) black flags will come
from Khurasaan (Iran). No power will be able to stop them and they will finally reach Eela (Dome of the Rock in
Jerusalem) where they will erect their flags."

"There will be many armies after me.
You must join that army which will come from Khurasaan (Iran)."

"The sun will soon set, and what remains of this world, compared to what has passed, is like what remains of this day compared to what has passed"

"Islam began as something strange, and it will revert to being something strange as it was in the beginning, so good tidings for the strangers. It was asked of him : "who are the strangers?" and he said : "the ones who break away from their people for the sake of Islam"

"By him in whose hand my soul is, my nation will split into 73 sects: one will enter paradise and 72 will enter hell". It was asked of him : " who will they (the saved people) be?" and he said : "The main body of the muslims (Jama'ah)"

"Among the signs of the hour will be the disapperance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance. Adultery will be prevalent and the drinking of wine will be commmon"

"If fornication should become widespread you should know that this has never happened without God sending new diseases to the people which their forbears didn't suffer from . If people should begin to cheat in weighing out goods then know that this has never happened without drought and famine befalling the people, and their rulers oppressing them. If people should withhold Zakat then you should realize that this has never happened without the rain being stopped from falling, and were it not for the animal's sake it would never rain again. If people should break their covenant with God and His Messenger you should realize that this has never happened without God sending an enemy against them to take some of their possessions by force. If the leaders do not govern according to the Book of God, you should realize that this has never happened without God dividing them into groups and making them fight one another."

"O People, it has been the duty of every Prophet before me to guide his people to whatever he knew was good for them and to warn them against whatever he knew was bad for them, but this nation has its time of peace and security, at the beginning; close to the end it will suffer trials and tribulations, one after another. Tribulation will come and the believer will say "This will finish me" but it will pass. Another tribulation will come and he will say "This is it" but it will pass also and a third will come and go likewise. Whoever wishes to be rescued from Hell, and enter Paradise let him die believing in God and the Last Day and treat the people as he himself wishes to be treated. If anoyone gives allegiance to an Imam, then let him obey him as much as he can."

"You will sign a peace treaty with the Romans (Christians/Europeans), and together you will invade an enemy beyond Rome. You will be victorious and take much booty. Then you will camp in a hilly pasture; one of the Roman men will come and raise a cross and say "Victory to the Cross", so one of the muslims will come and kill him. Then the Romans will break the treaty and there will be battle. They will gather an army against you and come against you with eighty banners, each banner followed by ten thousand men"

Pointing towards Syria he said:

"An enemy will gather forces against the muslims". He was asked :"do you mean the Romans ?" and he said :" Yes. At that time there will be very heavy fighting. The muslims will prepare a detachment to fight to death. Both sides will return without being victorious; then many will be killed on both sides. On the fourth day, the muslims who are left will return to the fight and God will cause the enemy to be routed. There will be a battle the like of which has never been seen, so that even if a bird were to pass their ranks, it would fall down dead before it reached the end of them. Out of a family of one hundred, only one man will survive, so how could he enjoy the booty or divide any inheritance? While they are in this state, they will hear of an even worse calamity. A cry will reach them : "the Antichrist has taken your place among your offspring"

"The hour will not be established until the Romans camp at Al-A'mash or Dabiq. An army composed of the best people on earth at that time will come out from Medina to meet them. When they have arranged themselves in ranks, the Romans will say "Do not stand between us and those who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight them". The Muslims will say " No, by God, we will never stand aside from you and our brothers". Then they will fight. One third will turn away and run away and God will never forgive them. One third will be killed and they will be the best of Martyrs in God's sight. One third who will never be subjected to trials and tribulations will win and will then conquer Constantinople. Whilst they are sharing their booty after hanging their swords, Satan will shout to them that the Antichrist has taken their place among their families. They will rush out but they will find out it is not true. When they come to Syria, the Antichrist will appear while they are preparing for battle and drawing up their ranks. When the time for prayer comes, Jesus the son of Mary will descend. When the enemy of God sees him (i.e Jesus) he (the Antichrist) will start to dissolve like salt in water"

"The Hour will not come until the muslims fight against the Jews and destroy them."

"Neither the Antichrist nor a plague can enter Medina"

"By Him in Whose hand is my soul, the Hour will not come until wild animals talk to men and a man speaks to his whip or his shoe and his thigh will tell him about what happened to his family after he left"

"The hour will not come until time passes so quickly that a year will be like a month, a month like a week, a week like a day, a day like an hour and an hour like the time it takes for a palm-leaf to burn"

"The bare-footed and naked paupers (of Arabia) will compete with one another in constructing high buildings"

"The hour will not come until the time when a man will leave his home and his shoes or whip or stick will tell what is happening to his family"

"There will be a tribulation that will clean the Arabs and its dead will be in Hell (because they fought for wordly ideologies and glory not Islam)"

"The last Hour will not come upon us until the lands of the Arabs are once again pasture lands
and filled with rivers."

"The people will flee from the Antichrist to the mountains". He was asked : "O Messenger of God! Where will the Arabs be at that time" to which he replied : "they will be very few"

"They (the Arabs) will be few and they will be concentrated around Jerusalem and their Imam will be a righetous man (the Imam Mahdi)."...and he continued to describe the descent of Jesus the Son of Mary

"Woe to the Arabs of an evil drawing nigh! Its shadow has fallen on them already by the Lord of the Ka'aba. Its shadow has fallen on them! (i.e it is close)"

"Soon the river "Euphrates" will disclose the treasure (the mountain) of gold, so whoever will
be present at that time should not take anything of it"

"The Euphrates would soon uncover a mountain of gold and
when the people would hear of it they would flock towards it but the people who would possess that (treasure)
(would say): If we allow these persons to take out of it they would take away the whole of it. So they would fight
and ninety-nine out of one hundred would be killed. "

"God will send no Apostle after me, but only Mubashshirat. It was said: what is meant by al-Mubashshirat. He said : Good vision or pious vision"

"Towards the Latter Days dreams shall become confused. The truthful dream will be by the truthful, pious person (muslim)"


http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/30...eethfuture.htm
Reply

BlackHeart
01-01-2009, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
The rapture:
Thank you for that post, Chuck. A merry heart is medicine for the soul.

:D
Reply

BlackHeart
01-01-2009, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
you should know since you're a prophet:D

the great day of the the lord? you mean the day of ressurection
Do not think that one who gives his mouth to the Lord has also given his heart and mind to the Lord.

Also, do not think I lift myself up or take pride when I am asked to speak for him. The Lord does not spoon feed me with answers though I wish I could push a button and answers would just pop out of nowhere. I suppose if everyone had all the answers then we would not have a need for one another.

I realize that I am a sinner and that I have much repenting to do.

The Lord has set me before you and I realize now that I sin against him because I do not love my enemies.

I also realize that he has sent me here to learn something from Islam.

The great day of the Lord that I speak of is a day of darkness and terrible destruction upon the earth.

I fear that I might live through it and be left on a desolate earth.
Reply

جوري
01-01-2009, 10:38 PM
Didn't your God Jesus already eat your sins and die for them? There is not much lost in your very counter intuitive religion -- you can indeed keep your black heart, sin all the way to the bank, a republican Jesus is sure to descend and carry you on a silver cloud to your rapture.. now off you go :smile:
Reply

BlackHeart
01-01-2009, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Didn't your God Jesus already eat your sins and die for them? There is not much lost in your very counter intuitive religion -- you can indeed keep your black heart, sin all the way to the bank, a republican Jesus is sure to descend and carry you on a silver cloud to your rapture.. now off you go :smile:
The wages of sin is death. Yeshua came to take the penalty for my sins.

Yeshua died in my place that I may have eternal life. I am called to repent and turn away from sin. Every time I sin I nail Yeshua to the cross again.
I am not perfect. I strive to become a perfect man, without blemish.

I do not believe in the rapture as portrayed by my body being sucked up into the clouds by some great vacuum cleaner.


In your post above, you listed this for example:

*A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home.

Is this a verse in the Koran?
Reply

Tony
01-01-2009, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Brothers and Sisters,

What can you tell me about the "Great day of the Lord"?

I saw a video where a teacher of Islam said that the earth will come to a halt and then turn the other direction. Is this in the Koran somewhere?

Peace and blessings be upon you.

There is a sign that the sun will rise in the west, I have also heard that this could mean the rise of Islam in the west. Think this is what you refer to. peace
Reply

Tony
01-01-2009, 11:26 PM
I also realize that he has sent me here to learn something from Islam.

Now I wonder what that could be !!! I really hope you figure it out. May Allah open your eyes now that you have been guided, Peace
Reply

جوري
01-01-2009, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
The wages of sin is death. Yeshua came to take the penalty for my sins.
lol.. ok!
Yeshua died in my place that I may have eternal life. I am called to repent and turn away from sin. Every time I sin I nail Yeshua to the cross again.
I am not perfect. I strive to become a perfect man, without blemish.
aha
I do not believe in the rapture as portrayed by my body being sucked up into the clouds by some great vacuum cleaner.
Your entire belief system is counter intuitive-- really makes no difference whether a vacuum cleaner or a 'beam me up scotty' and in the end is of no consequence to me!


In your post above, you listed this for example:

*A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home.

Is this a verse in the Koran?
These are ahadith.. why are you on comparative, if you don't know the basics on theology?

you've heard of



and




ahhhhhhhhhmazing!

cheers
Reply

BlackHeart
01-02-2009, 01:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
There is a sign that the sun will rise in the west, I have also heard that this could mean the rise of Islam in the west. Think this is what you refer to. peace

No, I think that this will what I am looking for.

The earths rotation shall stop for three days and the sun shall actually rise in the west.



Where the Sun goes

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Zar that the Messenger of Allah one day said, "Do you know where the Sun goes?" They replied, "Allah and his apostle know best." He (The Holy Prophet ) observed, "Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is told, 'Rise up and go to the place whence you came' and it goes back."
Then it continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the throne where it falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is told, 'Rise up and return to the place whence you came.' And it returns and emerges out of it's rising place and then it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the throne. Then it would be said to it, 'Rise up and emerge from the place of your setting,' and it will rise from the place of its setting." The Messenger of Allah said "Do you know when it will happen? It will happen at the time when faith will not benefit anyone who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith." (Muslim)

Worshippers during the night will remain till the sun rises from the West
Abdullah-b-Abu-Owfa reported that I heard the Messenger of Allah say, "Verily a night will come upon the people which is equivalent of three of your nights. When it comes those that engage themselves in worship during the night will recognise it. One of them will stand in prayer, read his Hizb (The normal amount he has made the habit of reading) and then go to sleep. Thereafter he will wake up (for the second time) read his Hizb in prayer and go to sleep. While this is the situation the people will begin to shout, scream and call one another. They will say, "What's this?" With fear they will run to the mosque. To their surprise they will see that the sun has risen from the west. When it reaches the middle of the sky it will return and set in the west." He said , "That is when Imaan will not benefit anyone (who brings faith after seeing the sign)." (An-Nihaya)
Back to content

Everyone will bring faith in seeing the sign
Narrated by Abu Huraira (R.A), "Allah's Messenger said, 'The hour will not come until the sun rises from the west; and when the people see it, then whoever will be living on the surface of the Earth will have faith, and that is (the time) when no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before." (Bukhari)

The real basis of faith is that man believes in the unseen realities on the authority of the Messenger of Allah . But when Allah manifests such startling and visible signs which herald the approach of the last hour and by which the veil of the unseen is rent asunder, then the belief becomes meaningless. The rising of the sun from the west will be of great disturbance to nature and will shake the mind of every man and awaken him to see for himself the great power of Allah. At this time the belief of the unseen will lose its importance.
Back to content

Door of Repentance Closed

Once the sun has risen from the west the door of repentance will be closed and will remain closed until the Day of Judgement. If any infidel embraces Islam or any Muslim repents and seeks forgiveness for his sins any time after the rising of the sun from the west till the Day of Judgement, it will not be accepted.

The Messenger of Allah said, "Verily Allah extends his hand at night so that the sinners of the day may repent and verily extends his hand during the day so that the sinners of the night may repent. (He will keep on doing this) as long as the sun does not rise from the west." (Abu-Musa al-Ashari/ Muslim)

The Prophet said, "Allah has built a door of repentance in the west the breadth of which is seventy years and it will not close as long as the sun does not rise from the west." (Safwan-b-Assal / Tirmidhi)

The above Ahadith have clearly specified that the extreme limit of the acceptance of repentance is till the sun rises from the west. Once it has risen it will not be accepted.

Ibne Hajar has mentioned many Ahadith which prove that the door of repentance will remain closed till the Day of Judgement and thereafter writes, ''These narration's give strength to one another, agreeing completely in that when the sun rises from the west the door of repentance will be closed and will not be opened thereafter. And this is not specific with that day but will prolong till the Day of Judgement.'' (Fathul- Bari)

Back to content
Reply

BlackHeart
01-02-2009, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
lol.. ok!

aha


Your entire belief system is counter intuitive-- really makes no difference whether a vacuum cleaner or a 'beam me up scotty' and in the end is of no consequence to me!


cheers

I can't wait until you turn into a Butterfly. :thankyou:
Reply

Chuck
01-02-2009, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Thank you for that post, Chuck. A merry heart is medicine for the soul.

:D
Your welcome
Reply

BlackHeart
01-02-2009, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
No one here and I suspect most reasoning adults, accept a man for a God--

cheers
It is rather that the "word" was made manifest in a man and dwelt amoung us.

It is written that in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God.

Does Islam recognize the Torah?

Peace, hope, love and joy upon you.
Reply

BlackHeart
01-02-2009, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Your welcome
A Jew, a Christian and a Muslim were having a discussion about who was the most religious.

"I was riding my camel in the middle of the Sahara," exclaimed the Muslim. "Suddenly a fierce sandstorm appeared from nowhere. I truly thought my end had come as I lay next to my camel while we being buried deeper and deeper under the sand. But I did not lose my faith in the Almighty Allah, I prayed and prayed and suddenly, for a hundred metres all around me, the storm had stopped. Since that day I am a devout Muslim and am now learning to recite the Quran by memory."

"One day while fishing," started the Christian, "I was in my little dinghy in the middle of the ocean. Suddenly a fierce storm appeared from nowhere. I truly thought my end had come as my little dinghy was tossed up and down in the rough ocean. But I did not lose my faith in Jesus Christ, I prayed and prayed and suddenly, for 300 metres all around me, the storm had stopped. Since that day I am a devout Christian and am now teaching young children about Him."

"One day I was walking down the road," explained the Jew, "I was in my most expensive designer outfit in the middle of New York city. Suddenly I saw a black bag on the ground in front of me appear from nowhere. I put my hand inside and found a million dollars in cash. I truly thought my end had come as it was a Saturday and we are not allowed to handle money on Saturdays. But I did not lose my faith in Jehova, I prayed and prayed and suddenly, for 500 metres all around me, it was Tuesday..."
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 01:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
It is rather that the "word" was made manifest in a man and dwelt amoung us.

It is written that in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God.

Does Islam recognize the Torah?

Peace, hope, love and joy upon you.
In the beginning and in the end and always there is God!

Yes the Torah is from God before "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

God's first creation was a pen.. not man.. should really emphasize the importance of reflection and learning in lieu of emotionality and nonsense!

..ooOOoo..

It is reported on the authority of `Ubadah Ibn As-Samit (ra ) that he said to his son: "Oh, son! You will never taste true faith until you know that whatever afflicts you would not have missed you, and whatever has missed you would never have come to you. I heard the Messenger of Allah (saas ) say: "The first thing Allah (swt ) created was the pen; He commanded it to write. It said: "My Rabb! What shall I write?" He said: "Write down what has been ordained for all things until the establishment of the Hour." Oh, my son! I heard Allah's Messenger (saas ) say: "Whoever dies believing something other than this does not belong to me." In another narration by Imam Ahmad, it was reported: "Verily, the first thing which Allah (swt ), Most High, created was the pen, and He said to it: "Write;" and in that very hour all what was to occur (was written) up to the Day of Resurrection." In another version from Ibn Wahab, it was said: "Allah's Messenger (saas ) said: "Whoever disbelieved in Al-Qadr, the good and the bad of it, will be burnt in the Hell-fire."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...1-chap-57.html



بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
هَلْ أَتَى عَلَى الْإِنسَانِ حِينٌ مِّنَ الدَّهْرِ لَمْ يَكُن شَيْئًا مَّذْكُورًا {1}
[Yusufali 76:1] Has there not been over Man a long period of Time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned?

God creates what he pleases.. we shouldn't be so vain as to think, we are all that matters or all that there is!
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
I can't wait until you turn into a Butterfly. :thankyou:
Can't wait until you turn into a Hucho Perryi :coolious:

cheers
Reply

BlackHeart
01-03-2009, 05:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
In the beginning and in the end and always there is God!

Yes the Torah is from God before "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
KJV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8 "How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain."

And the vanity in context of verse 9.

"The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?"

I do not like the NIV translation. It was not a lying pen of the scribes but that the truth of the law is rejected.
Reply

BlackHeart
01-03-2009, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Can't wait until you turn into a Hucho Perryi :coolious:

cheers
Does that make me worth 15,000 bells? :coolalien
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 05:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
KJV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8 "How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain."

And the vanity in context of verse 9.

"The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?"

I do not like the NIV translation. It was not a lying pen of the scribes but that the truth of the law is rejected.
You can subscribe to the version and translation to your liking.. it is sort of inconsequential.. I believe the Jews to be closer (practice wise) to Muslims than Christians, but they have rejected the prophet that was sent to them (the lost sheep of bani Israel) and given your own distorted narrative of his being, one can't blame them for being still lost.. or you being so far astray from the covenant of Abraham...

It is almost sad when I really think about it.. you probably think in your own mind that you are doing good, but you are no different than the idolaters of UR who carved their Gods of dates prayed to them then ate them...


cheers
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 05:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Does that make me worth 15,000 bells? :coolalien
30,000 if I wait for the flea market :smile:
Reply

BlackHeart
01-03-2009, 05:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
In the beginning and in the end and always there is God!

God's first creation was a pen.. not man.. should really emphasize the importance of reflection and learning in lieu of emotionality and nonsense!

..ooOOoo..

It is reported on the authority of `Ubadah Ibn As-Samit (ra ) that he said to his son: "Oh, son! You will never taste true faith until you know that whatever afflicts you would not have missed you, and whatever has missed you would never have come to you. I heard the Messenger of Allah (saas ) say: "The first thing Allah (swt ) created was the pen; He commanded it to write. It said: "My Rabb! What shall I write?" He said: "Write down what has been ordained for all things until the establishment of the Hour." Oh, my son! I heard Allah's Messenger (saas ) say: "Whoever dies believing something other than this does not belong to me." In another narration by Imam Ahmad, it was reported: "Verily, the first thing which Allah (swt ), Most High, created was the pen, and He said to it: "Write;" and in that very hour all what was to occur (was written) up to the Day of Resurrection." In another version from Ibn Wahab, it was said: "Allah's Messenger (saas ) said: "Whoever disbelieved in Al-Qadr, the good and the bad of it, will be burnt in the Hell-fire."
Thank you for the reference, Skye. I agree with it.

King James Bible, John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Shalom
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 05:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Thank you for the reference, Skye. I agree with it.

King James Bible, John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Shalom
are you changing your bible thumping ways and ready for theological reason or this is just a momentary lapse of judgment? :ooh: :p

peace
Reply

BlackHeart
01-03-2009, 05:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Yes the Torah is from God .
The words "Us" and "Our" are plural, meaning more than one.

Can there be "One" God that consists of many?

Genesis 1:26 (King James Version)

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Hucho. ^o)
Reply

BlackHeart
01-03-2009, 05:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
are you changing your bible thumping ways and ready for theological reason or this is just a momentary lapse of judgment? :ooh: :p

peace
Both and neither.

Matthew 19:26 (King James Version)

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Double Peace!
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 05:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
The words "Us" and "Our" are plural, meaning more than one.

Can there be "One" God that consists of many?

Genesis 1:26 (King James Version)

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Hucho. ^o)
Actually in both Arabic and Hebrew and undoubtedly Aramaic the plural is used to denote 'respect' if you will listen to sure al waqi3a

Media Tags are no longer supported

around verses 57 on God uses 'nahno' which is 'we' in its entirety .. the closest thing to it is you speaking in the third person.. there is no plurality to God..
to begin with God is described in the Quran 'none like unto him'
so your attempts at anthropomorphism are not only not befitting of his magistrate but kind of puerile when you think about it.. your mind can't wrap itself around the idea of a being so great, you'll have to invent him a poor boy born to a woman after impregnating her with himself and sending his alter ego down to tell her of himself before he gets into her womb..

Religion should be built upon logic and valid reason to go with the nature of man!


peace
Reply

AntiKarateKid
01-03-2009, 07:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Does that make me worth 15,000 bells? :coolalien
LOL. Animal crossing. My little sister plays that!:D

Now if only you both shared the same religion!:rolleyes:
Reply

Zamtsa
01-03-2009, 07:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
I have come to you followers of Islam.

Hear Me, the followers of my Prophet, Mohammed. You are the followers of that which is right, saith the Lord.

But you have not accepted my death on the cross as the way to eternal life.

Accept me, the one who died upon the cross for I came to forgive sins and to give you eternal life.

Remove yourselves from my land which I gave to my chosen people, the Jews.

Join yourselves with my new covenant, the Christians.

Christans, join yourselves to my righteous people, the followers of Isalm, who follow my Prophet, Mohammed.

Those who follow my prophet Mohammed, you do error to set your selves against my new covenent, the Christians who follow my new law.

Join yourselves together as One Prophet.

The Deceiver has been cast down and is working to deceive you and to cause division between those who belong to me.

You are the old and the new Covenant that I have set before Mankind.

Join yourselves together as One. The Christians have forgotten that which is right and Islam does not have that which is grace.

Join together and fight the principalities and powers that come against you to deceive you and to destroy you.

Remember the words of my Prohphet, Michah.



<< Micah 4 >>
King James Bible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
You're Syaithan insi which Allahu Ta'ala warned:

Making someone to look back after the guidance is clear and define so that Syaithan make people at ease in doing sins and in having illusions in this life (QS.47:25)

Allahu kalam:


An Nisa (4):157 That they said (in boast) "We killed Al Masih Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor CRUCIFIED him but so it was made to APPEAR to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.
Reply

malayloveislam
01-03-2009, 08:33 AM
Ludicrous, taking the word "our" and "us" as plural literal meaning. I use to say "we" and "us" in my native language when talking to others but is that means that I am three in one??? I'm still a person with the nickname "Malayloveislam" and there is no one resembling me or taking my function as the person who bear the nickname unless if I have a twin or an impostor who are operating his face with plastic surgery or using my nickname because I forgot to erase my password when joining tis forum. I'm just using the pronoun "we" to be polite and respect, instead of using "I" like in English because in my culture, saying "I" is impolite, beside using "I", I will also use "we". I think I can understand Arabic usage of "we" when God refer to Himself. That is not complicated to understand at all, why making it complicated???
Reply

BlackHeart
01-04-2009, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by malayloveislam
Ludicrous, taking the word "our" and "us" as plural literal meaning. I use to say "we" and "us" in my native language when talking to others but is that means that I am three in one??? I'm still a person with the nickname "Malayloveislam" and there is no one resembling me or taking my function as the person who bear the nickname unless if I have a twin or an impostor who are operating his face with plastic surgery or using my nickname because I forgot to erase my password when joining tis forum. I'm just using the pronoun "we" to be polite and respect, instead of using "I" like in English because in my culture, saying "I" is impolite, beside using "I", I will also use "we". I think I can understand Arabic usage of "we" when God refer to Himself. That is not complicated to understand at all, why making it complicated???
Then what you are saying that God can only be modeled after a man?

Who is like unto God? Who can counsel him? He has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.

How can the Sun rise in the West? It is only when the eye shall see that it can be believed. It is only when it is made manifest that faith can be grasped. Reason is but a fantasy created by Man.
Reply

Chuck
01-04-2009, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
How can the Sun rise in the West? It is only when the eye shall see that it can be believed.
Exactly, it is sign of the end time when world is coming to end, and that is the reason everybody want to believe then since they will realize world is about to end. It is a sign of the end, nothing more.
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Then what you are saying that God can only be modeled after a man?

Who is like unto God? Who can counsel him? He has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.

How can the Sun rise in the West? It is only when the eye shall see that it can be believed. It is only when it is made manifest that faith can be grasped. Reason is but a fantasy created by Man.
Actually it is quite feasible and possibly have a very scientific explanation.. if any celestial body to move its course by even one degree, can have a profound impact, not to mention affecting our perception..


take for instance

Cosmic Illusion: Mars to Move Backward

By Joe Rao
SPACE.com Skywatching Columnist
posted: 09 November 2007
06:25 am ET


We're now coming into the home stretch of the last good apparition of Mars until 2016. Now blazing in the late-evening east-northeast sky like an eye-catching yellowish-orange "star," Mars is less than six weeks away from its closest approach to Earth during this apparition.

At the beginning of the year, the red planet was 221 million miles (356 million kilometers) from Earth. This week, it will be 63 million miles (102 million kilometers) away and it now shines some 10 times brighter than it did on New Year's Day.

Since Jan. 1, Mars has progressed more than halfway around our sky and now is on an easterly course through the background stars of the Zodiac. It currently resides smack in the middle of the constellation of Gemini, the Twins.

But on Thursday, Nov. 15, that steady eastward course is going to come to a stop.

Wandering 'star'

Actually, for the past few weeks, Mars has appeared to slow in its eastward trajectory as seen from Earth. It seems to waver, as if it had become uncertain. Finally, on Nov. 15, it will pause and come to a halt.

Then, for about the next 11 weeks, the "wandering star," as ancients called it, will reverse its course in the heavens and move backward against the star background – toward the West. Then, on Jan. 30, 2008, it will pause again, before resuming its normal eastward direction.

All the planets exhibit this "retrograde motion" at one time or another. But for the longest time, the ancient astronomers were unable to come up with a satisfactory explanation for it. For one thing, while behaving in this strange manner, Mars will also appear to deviate somewhat from its normal course; the retrograde motion will appear to bring it a little above its regular orbital track. In other words, for those of us watching from Earth, Mars will appear to travel in a loop.

Yet, the Greeks staunchly believed that the sun, moon and planets all moved around the Earth in perfect circles. They had a great difficulty in representing and calculating this mysterious loop and for a long time they had no adequate explanation for it.

The Greeks finally explained away this anomaly by assuming that the planets moved around the Earth in smaller "epicycles" – that is, a small circle whose center moves along its main orbital circle around Earth, resulting in complex, almost coil-like curves. Unfortunately, the actual observations of the planets never seemed to fit this strange orbital mechanism, ultimately making the Greeks explanation quite useless.

The truth emerges

It was not until the year 1543 when the great Polish astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543) had his lifelong work "De revolutionibus" published, that the secret of the odd retrograde loops were finally revealed. By demoting the Earth from its hallowed position at the center of the solar system and replacing it with the Sun, he was able to triumphantly explain the riddle of the apparent "backwards motion effect" of the planets.

In fact, it's the same effect obtained when passing another car on a highway: Both cars are going in the same direction, but one is moving more slowly. As they pass, the slower car will appear to be moving backward in relation to the faster one.

Copernicus simply applied the same effect to the planets. In the present situation, both Earth and Mars are moving in the same direction around the Sun, but the slower one, Mars, appears to move backwards compared to the faster one, Earth.

Just an illusion

The retrograde motion of Mars – like the apparent motion of the slower car on the highway – is nothing more than an illusion. The last two times Mars underwent retrograde motion (in 2003 and 2005), I received numerous inquiries asking if the sun, as seen from Mars, would also appear to stop and move backwards across the sky.

The answer is most definitely "no."

The apparent backward motion will manifest itself after Mars arrives at its first stationary point on Nov. 15. Mars will then begin to loop back toward the west. Earth will overtake Mars on Christmas Eve. Finally, on Jan. 30, 2008, the combined movements of Earth and Mars will cancel-out the apparent backward motion, with Mars reaching a second stationary point. From then on, Mars will loop back to the east, resuming its normal eastward path among the stars


http://www.space.com/spacewatch/0711...rsreverse.html

but if you want to take delusions of men, I really don't think you can win this one pal.. from the descending republican God to the wife/alter ego/son in one will have to win delusion of men hands down..

Maybe that is why Christianity is always reveling in dark ages, even still?

cheers
Reply

BlackHeart
01-04-2009, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
LOL. Animal crossing. My little sister plays that!:D

Now if only you both shared the same religion!:rolleyes:
Hehe, I am not a God of Religion but a God of spirit.

I also have dogs which I love.

Reply

Chuck
01-04-2009, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Hehe, I am not a God of Religion but a God of spirit.
That is blasphemous comment even by mainstream Christianity standards.
Reply

BlackHeart
01-05-2009, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
That is blasphemous comment even by mainstream Christianity standards.
Thus saith Yeshua.

Is it blasphemous that I send my spirit upon men? I came to my people, Israel and blasphemy was assigned to me. I came and died on a cross as the Lamb of God, to take away the sins of the world. I came to my own and was not received. In these days they shall see me, the one whom they pierced and receive me. They will be my people and I will be their God.

Yes, blashphemy is assigned to me by those who have been made blind and deaf. But my sheep know my voice and they hear me. They have received me and the spirit of truth has been given to them that they may be led into all truth. These sheep have knocked on the door and I came into them.

I and my father are one. I am in the father and the father is in me.
Those that receive me are in me and I am in them.

I will pour out my spirit in these days and the sons and daughters shall prophesy. Old men shall have dreams. I will hasten to perform my word as spoken by the mouths of my Prophets.

I am the prince of peace, Almighty God, the wonderful counseler.

Peace be unto all men but the wicked shall not inherit my kingdom.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 12:09 AM
You should direct that to the people of Israel indeed..

"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," Matthew 15:24 -- it is a wonder to me why Israel doesn't buy into the manGodmotherofGodalterego mythos?
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 12:12 AM
BTW why does your God Jesus abrogate commandments he was so adamant about having upheld in the 'OT' much less through the mouth and efforts of his arch nemesis while he was alive?
Reply

BlackHeart
01-05-2009, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
BTW why does your God Jesus abrogate commandments he was so adamant about having upheld in the 'OT' much less through the mouth and efforts of his arch nemesis while he was alive?
The commandments show the pathway to life.

Adam and Eve were deceived and disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden whereby Sin entered in. All of the descendants of Adam and Eve are born into sin because of this.

The Law proves that all are as filthy rags before the most high.
None are righteous before the Lord and none can attain to the absolute obedience of the Law because we are born in sin.
The Law is good and its ways are life.

Therefore Yeshua came to be the covering for our sins. When God looks upon us he sees the blood of Yeshua which is righteousness and we become perfect in his sight.

But Yeshua requires that we make some effort to prove that we are not just providing lip service to him. There is no covering for those who try to deceive the most high.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
The commandments show the pathway to life.
The commandments are a sign of the covenant which Christians don't uphold!

Adam and Eve were deceived and disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden whereby Sin entered in. All of the descendants of Adam and Eve are born into sin because of this.
Although Adam and Eve could no longer live in the Paradise, God forgave Adam and Eve for their sin after they sincerely repented (Quran 2:35-37). We are responsible for our own deeds and will not be punished for the deeds of another person (Quran 53:38-42). Therefore, Muslims reject the doctrine of original sin. Although Adam and Eve were punished, God would still be merciful by sending Guidance to mankind. "We said: 'Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.'" (Quran 2:38).

The Law proves that all are as filthy rags before the most high.
None are righteous before the Lord and none can attain to the absolute obedience of the Law because we are born in sin.
The Law is good and its ways are life.
see above.. you are a filthy rag because of your choosing..

Therefore Yeshua came to be the covering for our sins. When God looks upon us he sees the blood of Yeshua which is righteousness and we become perfect in his sight.
That is a nice piece of anticlimactic fantasy-- not even good enough for Narnia.. aside from the very apparent split personality God seems to suffer from.. why don't Christians have respect for God?

But Yeshua requires that we make some effort to prove that we are not just providing lip service to him. There is no covering for those who try to deceive the most high.
You mean like when you dance like lunatics in churches? I wouldn't even categorize that as lip service.. it is just plain satanism!

cheers
Reply

BlackHeart
01-05-2009, 02:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You should direct that to the people of Israel indeed..

"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," Matthew 15:24 -- it is a wonder to me why Israel doesn't buy into the manGodmotherofGodalterego mythos?
Thus saith Yeshua.

Do you not think that the world has become as evil it was in the days of Noah when I flooded the earth?

Is the world not like the days of the Tower that they built into the sky, where they said we shall not be taken by the flood again for who can reach up to us to destroy our evil?

Do you not think that I, Yeshua have raised up prophets to speak to my people, Israel?

Yet there is evil in Israel just as there is evil in all the earth. I shall gather my elect from the four corners of the earth.

I shall yet bring some of my chosen people into my kingdom.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
01-05-2009, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
The commandments show the pathway to life.

Adam and Eve were deceived and disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden whereby Sin entered in. All of the descendants of Adam and Eve are born into sin because of this.

The Law proves that all are as filthy rags before the most high.
None are righteous before the Lord and none can attain to the absolute obedience of the Law because we are born in sin.
The Law is good and its ways are life.

Therefore Yeshua came to be the covering for our sins. When God looks upon us he sees the blood of Yeshua which is righteousness and we become perfect in his sight.

But Yeshua requires that we make some effort to prove that we are not just providing lip service to him. There is no covering for those who try to deceive the most high.
God sees his own blood? In Islam, we believe Allah doesnt need blood atonement to forgive sins.

I'm not sure you understand our view of the trinity.

You are basically telling us God came down in human form, then had himself tortured and killed,all to save us from his OWN wrath, all the while being a "PERSONAL" savior yet being sent for EVERYONE??? :? ^o)

Is that correct?

We believe God is unlike his creation, he is something altogether separate. He does not need his own blood to forgive us of our sins.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Thus saith Yeshua.
indeed but you are a gentile!

Do you not think that the world has become as evil it was in the days of Noah when I flooded the earth?
It has, you can thank your fundies for most of the evil in the world.. wars, corruption and transgression against his magistrate!
Is the world not like the days of the Tower that they built into the sky, where they said we shall not be taken by the flood again for who can reach up to us to destroy our evil?
I'd indeed be afraid if I were you for spreading more Paul(ian) lies and corruption to those rightly guided!

Do you not think that I, Yeshua have raised up prophets to speak to my people, Israel?
If you are Yeshua, I suggest you take yourself to the nearest ER for a dose of Haldol Decanoate IM!

Yet there is evil in Israel just as there is evil in all the earth. I shall gather my elect from the four corners of the earth.
They shall be gathered there for a certain fate!
Noble Verses 17:4-10 "4. And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.

8. It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).

9. Verily this Qur'an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;

10. And to those who believe not in the Hereafter, (it announceth) that We have prepared for them a Penalty Grievous (indeed)."

According to Noble Verses 17:4-10, Allah Almighty allowed for the Jews before the Noble Quran was revealed "that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!" The first time they rose before the Noble Quran was revealed was during the times of the Babylon Empire. When they did mischief on earth, Allah Almighty decided to **** them by sending them the army of "Nebuchadnezzar" and he destroyed them. See also 2 Kings 24:10-21, 2 Kings 25:1-5 in the Bible

I shall yet bring some of my chosen people into my kingdom.
see above

cheers
Reply

mkh4JC
01-05-2009, 02:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
God sees his own blood? In Islam, we believe Allah doesnt need blood atonement to forgive sins.

I'm not sure you understand our view of the trinity.

You are basically telling us God came down in human form, then had himself tortured and killed,all to save us from his OWN wrath, all the while being a "PERSONAL" savior yet being sent for EVERYONE??? :? ^o)

Is that correct?

We believe God is unlike his creation, he is something altogether separate. He does not need his own blood to forgive us of our sins.
Here's a good quote explaining why God doesn't just forgive sins without requiring some kind of payment:

Let's think about that for a minute, in a human context. Such a law might look something like this: "If a person is convicted of murder, rape, child abuse, mutilation, or irreversible destruction of someone's good reputation, he is subject to these minimum/maximum penalties (A-Z), unless the court finds him repentant for the crime and truly committed to a crime-less life in the future, whereupon no sentence/punishment whatsoever is to be levied against him--there is full forgiveness."




The first obvious, major, and FATAL problem with this is that the perp's 'repentance and commitment' seems GROSSLY INADEQUATE to 'balance out' the horrendous aftermath of those crimes in the lives of their victims. Our sense of 'fairness' and 'decency' would be abjectly shocked by this, and actually our moral outrage (a response to evil) would probably also be triggered at such a disproportionate response of the State to such brutalization. Such 'forgiveness' might make a bit more "moral sense" to us at a parole hearing after a couple of decades of imprisonment/hard labor, and/or a couple of decades of amazingly altruistic good works on behalf of the victims (or other victims in the same type of class), but at the point of conviction/sentencing it would be unthinkable. And this shock would NOT be related to some 'dullness in our hearts' or 'lack of love for the criminal' -- it would ONLY come from hearts sensitive to the real extensive dimensions of this evil. It would be the pure-in-heart which would be most shocked by such miscarriage. It would be those most 'schooled by love of neighbor' that would cry out the most over this, as being an act of violation itself.




And this would not be a 'utilitarian' response--we wouldn't be outraged solely because such a judgment wouldn't 'incite the community to goodness'. We would be shocked at the 'moral outrage' level--an instinctive response that a moral atrocity was present. We might not be able to specify what should be the sentence on such a 'contrite indict-ee', but we know for sure that such 'easy forgiveness' is NOT IT.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/whyjust.html
Reply

AntiKarateKid
01-05-2009, 05:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
Here's a good quote explaining why God doesn't just forgive sins without requiring some kind of payment:



http://www.christian-thinktank.com/whyjust.html
I am not following your logic. Arent you incriminating YOUR OWN religion? So if it isnt fair for the criminal to get off free, you would rather have someone else die for his sins? Honestly? The murderer faces the jury and says "Christ died for MY sins."

In Islam, no one bears the burden of your sins but YOU.

Anyways, a person who murdered another doesnt know if Allah has forgiven him until he has met him. In the meantime, Allah may choose to punish him in this life or the next. His part is to sincerely repent and constantly ask for forgiveness, and to submit himself to the laws of Allah.

In any case, as soon as the person has murdered, he has brought destruction upon himself by bringing his soul teetering on the edge of hell. What worse punishment is there than this? It is up to him to make amends for it and Allah may or may not accept his repentance, He knows best if the man deserves forgiveness.

I am not the best person to explain this but your article does not argue against the Islamic concept of forgiveness but rather your own.
Reply

north_malaysian
01-05-2009, 06:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Hehe, I am not a God of Religion but a God of spirit.
Huh.... first you called yourself a messenger like Jonah...now a ...God?
Reply

mkh4JC
01-05-2009, 07:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I am not following your logic. Arent you incriminating YOUR OWN religion? So if it isnt fair for the criminal to get off free, you would rather have someone else die for his sins? Honestly? The murderer faces the jury and says "Christ died for MY sins."

In Islam, no one bears the burden of your sins but YOU.

Anyways, a person who murdered another doesnt know if Allah has forgiven him until he has met him. In the meantime, Allah may choose to punish him in this life or the next. His part is to sincerely repent and constantly ask for forgiveness, and to submit himself to the laws of Allah.

In any case, as soon as the person has murdered, he has brought destruction upon himself by bringing his soul teetering on the edge of hell. What worse punishment is there than this? It is up to him to make amends for it and Allah may or may not accept his repentance, He knows best if the man deserves forgiveness.

I am not the best person to explain this but your article does not argue against the Islamic concept of forgiveness but rather your own.
Hmm...maybe these would be better quotes. From the same site:

One final point: I identify this God-the-ground of my/our compassion, mercy, love for beauty, and love for people (as well as the source of all the beauty and balance in nature and physics) with the God of the Bible. Conceivably, one might philosophically ‘back into’ a God-the-moral-ground, who is understood to be supra-human in love, forgiveness, patience, wisdom, social law design, commitment to community and the poor, etc—as I argued above that He is—yet do so in explicit rejection of the identification of this ‘theoretically wonderful God’ with the God of the Bible. They might object that the God of the Bible does too much punishment, does it too quickly, and/or uses warnings that are ‘too harsh’ instead of more coddling, etc. To me, there is a huge theological problem here: the implied silence of this philosophically-derived wonderful, “outgoing”, extroverted, redemption-oriented, community-loving God. If this God really, really cares this much for us, it would be hugely dissonant for Him/Her/It/They to not reveal that love, forgiveness, social law, etc and their beautiful Heart to us who would appreciate such a Companion. This is almost at the contradictory level: “I want the best for you, but I will NOT tell you what that is, how to reach it, how to deal with challenges, how to recover from failure and/or treachery, or even THAT I WANT the best for you”. Love beyond some certain level MUST disclose itself (at least at THIS god-level) and teach the creatures how to achieve good/happiness. Without getting into ‘comparative religion’ territory, I want to point out that the closest ‘match’ between the content of revealed religious literature and this philosophically-derived wonderful God occurs in the Bible. Only the monotheistic religious even HAVE a furthest-back God who can ‘feel’ mercy and offer personal forgiveness. [The traditional Eastern religions’ personal deities are NOT ultimates, and the Ultimate in those systems is not ‘personal’ in the sense we are talking about here, capable of love and forgiveness.] Among the monotheistic religions—all of which claim God is compassionate, merciful, forgiving (yet fair, patient, and consistent in eventual punishment), Christianity stands out as having the absolutely most vivid expression/demonstration of this love, compassion, eagerness-to-redeem, and pursuit-of-forgiveness in the incarnation and self-sacrifice of Jesus the Son of God on the Cross for the sin of the world, as God’s aggressive movement toward reconciliation and restoration of fallen mortals. Nothing else comes close to the incandescence, historical concreteness and immersion, and revelatory explicitness of this act. There are many amazing acts of beauty in the OT/Tanaach—Exodus, Return from Exile, and God’s long-running appeals to Judah through the prophets come foremost to my mind (beauty shared between Biblical Judaism and New Testament Christianity)—but the gift/incarnation of the Son is on another order altogether: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His absolutely unique Son…Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world…God made His love evident to us, in that while we were yet sinners and enemies, Christ died for us…”. If there WERE such a philosophically-plausible God and if He/she/it WERE as good-hearted as He would need to be to ground the many brilliantly beautiful and tender hearts I personally know, then there is every reason to believe that His love has been communicated to us in history in SOME sacred literature, and the best ‘candidate’ for that is the Judeo-Christian Bible. The match is too close. So, it won’t do any good to say “I’ll take the Wonderful God of my philosophical construct, but reject the punitive God of the Bible”. You are stuck with this: (a) such a Wonderful God is essentially propelled to communicate its intentions and relate warmly to its moral creatures; (b) such a Community-Loving God is going to reveal laws for community development/healing in a more ‘explicit’ manner than the vagueness of ‘conscience’ and ‘intuition’; (c) such a Redemptive/Good-seeking God is going to communicate what reality, the future, and the human condition are like [and it might not be ‘pretty’, but it will absolutely be helpful and constructive to know where the ‘potholes’ are in the dark]; and (d) such a Universal-Loving God would have to protect this love-letter to us from radical distortion [some, even a lot, of distortion could theoretically be allowed, of course, but not the parts that communicated His goodness of heart—implying that IF the many punishment passages were INCONSISTENT with His love, compassion, mercy, etc, THEN those could NOT have been ‘allowed in’ at that magnitude, NOR be so interwoven with the love message of the Cross. Errors of ‘weights, measures, distance, and headcount’ could conceivably be allowed to be corrupted, but He/she/it could NOT let His message of aggressive love be twisted into something about ‘punishment’, if rescue-from-punishment were NOT a central expression of His redeeming love. Bet on it.
And, at some level, God was sensitive to the "unjust reputation", for Paul argues in Romans 3.23f that:

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.




He wanted it to be very clear that the way to reconciliation was not by the 'whim of a deity' but through perfect satisfaction of the just demands of a just God! In other words, the relationship of peace that I personally enjoy with a morally perfect God is one that is grounded on the solid and unchanging bedrock of His completely satisfied justice! There are no "unpaid claims" against me, no "open issues", no "future debts" to cloud our relationship. God somehow took these upon Himself on the Cross, with the result that He is "just" to forgive me, and I can relax in my heart in His morally perfect presence! What incredible kindness, to construct such a God-costly plan to reconcile me to Himself, without compromising my confidence in His moral integrity! "Justice and Mercy are met in Thee"...
Reply

Zamtsa
01-05-2009, 03:02 PM
This is from Allahu Ta'ala the God of Yeshua the Prophet of Bani Isra'il, and every creature's God, yaa Black Heart:


QS.43(Muhammad):36 If anyone withdraws himself from remembrance(lessons) of (Allah) Most Gracious We appoint for him an EVIL one to be an intimate companion to him.

That's the one you claim as Yeshua 'alaihi Salaam.


37 Such (evil ones) really hinder them from the Path but they think that they are being guided aright!

38 At length when (such a one) comes to Us he says (to his evil companion): "Would that between me and thee were the distance of East and West!" Ah! Evil is the companion (indeed)!

That's what going to happen to you if you don't repent.

39 When ye have done wrong it will avail you nothing that day that ye shall be partners in punishment!

The Syaithan won't protect thee.

40 Canst thou then make the deaf to hear or give direction to the blind or to such as (wander) in manifest error?

Or people here couldn't lead thee to truth of Islam, if you're as deaf and blind as a deaf and blind people.


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace be upon who follow the guidance).
Reply

AntiKarateKid
01-05-2009, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos
Hmm...maybe these would be better quotes. From the same site:
Please describe it to me in your own words. Walls of text hurt me eyes.
Reply

BlackHeart
01-05-2009, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
God sees his own blood? In Islam, we believe Allah doesnt need blood atonement to forgive sins.

We believe God is unlike his creation, he is something altogether separate. He does not need his own blood to forgive us of our sins.
Well, I see lots of blood being shed between Israel and Hamas right now.

Where there is sin, there is blood.
Reply

BlackHeart
01-05-2009, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Walls of text hurt me eyes.
LOL, Amen!
Reply

BlackHeart
01-05-2009, 11:28 PM
Well, i guess Im off to wander through the Garden of Islam now to look for the unblemished fruit and to cast aside the blemished fruit.

Thanks for all of your links, Skye.

It Looks like I will start with Hadith and the Mahdi.

Peace and blessings upon all. :D

Before I leave Skye...

Left Wing, flap ,flap, flap,

Right Wing, flap, flap, flap,

Both Wings, flap, flap, flap,

Off we go! :thankyou:
Reply

BlackHeart
01-06-2009, 02:57 AM
I have been subscribing to some Islam videos on Youtube.
I get the following email...

help center | e-mail options | report spam
vandall has sent you a message on YouTube:

scum sucking rag head
If our paths ever cross , I'll gut you like a fidh and feed you to my dog you islamic scum . We'll turn the middle east into a glass parking lot before we put up with you pieces of **** .
You can reply to this message by visiting your inbox.

© 2008 YouTube, LLC


My, My. It appears that I am guilty by association.

Let us pray for this dear lost soul.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
01-06-2009, 03:25 AM
:rolleyes:
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
I have been subscribing to some Islam videos on Youtube.
I get the following email...

help center | e-mail options | report spam
vandall has sent you a message on YouTube:

scum sucking rag head
If our paths ever cross , I'll gut you like a fidh and feed you to my dog you islamic scum . We'll turn the middle east into a glass parking lot before we put up with you pieces of **** .
You can reply to this message by visiting your inbox.

© 2008 YouTube, LLC


My, My. It appears that I am guilty by association.

Let us pray for this dear lost soul.
LOL, seriously I dont know why but that guy made me laugh. Your comment is priceless... "My, my." LOLOLOLOL :haha:

I wonder if he realizes that Abraham, isaac, Moses, Jesus, SOlomon, David, Ishmael (pboat) and basically everyone in the Bible are middleastern?

I suppose Moses pbuh got the Ten Commandments in Italy?:rolleyes:

May Allah guide that poor soul.
Reply

Tony
01-06-2009, 07:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BlackHeart
Well, I see lots of blood being shed between Israel and Hamas right now.

Where there is sin, there is blood.
Where there is evil oppression and the denial of Allahs ways there is the blood of innocents and children
Reply

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