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Tariqa
12-27-2008, 11:32 PM
This thread is for the Muslims who have adapted the science of psychology...

Is this field allowed for Muslims to study and practice???

Many people believe there are nothing but lies in this field that are against Islam..


The study of mental illness is alone a doubtful matter...
People diagnosed with mental illness have no proof that this disease exist...
Mental illness is a theory...there is no scientific proof though they call it a science it has no solid proof....

Is it halal for Muslims to use this study for life purposes??

To answer that question we should use the rule of thumb and ask well why not??

Many people believe that mental illness itself are lies... Though they do not say it is fact and they do say it is their opinion, they still diagnose people with illness and treat them....Some patients have to take medications which could kill them in the same year... In fact more deaths have been associated with mental illness than all US wars combined...Medical malpractice is at a height and staggering amounts concerning this field.. The trail and error has seemed to be non existent because since the field was created there have not been one documented cure in the entire history of the profession....

The numbers show that the odds are against a win....

The part of Mental Illness that is accused of oppression (Haram)

It would not be so bad if it were only a voluntary practice. Unfortunately in many ,if not all, countries that treat for mental illness, they have a program where if a subject is seeming to be too ill he will be involuntarily committed to a hospital and his whole life would be stopped for treatment against his will..If he dies under treatment this would be a murder to many in Islam and thought..


A profession of murder??

How could Muslims allow this indeed.?? How can we force a man to undergo treatment when the proof is nonexistent..

Again there is no proof to prove the existence of mental illness therefore if any one is treated for something he does not have this is a sort of tempering with the laws of allah..If one is accused of anything he should be accused of the rightful crime and nothing more or less... If anything else this is playing with the al hudud and creating lies, slandering, and wrongful accusations, false witness and in the case of mental illness, abuse, torture and/or death..
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noorseeker
12-28-2008, 12:18 AM
Brother what do you mean mental illness is false,never heard that before
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Tariqa
12-28-2008, 12:46 AM
You may have never heard that mental illness is false because people do not like to discuss this matter...
To be fair ahki there is currently no proof to prove that mental illness for mental disorders are real regarding chemical imbalances in what not.. I cannot say as of yet that they are lies and metaphors because there is no proof on both sides.. One side is saying it is true while the other is saying is not.. The only thing side b can do is tell side a to prove it.. Until side a proves it side b has a valid opinion that mental illness is not true because it has no proof....

This is clearly differing from sciences like medical disorders such as cancer where lab test can prove its existence.. The same cannot be said for mental illness... There are no lab tests that confirms its validity even yet and still people are treated for a disorder that cannot be proved or seen.....
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Malaikah
12-28-2008, 01:19 AM
One question. Do you have any training in the area of psychology or science? What makes you so sure that what you are saying is correct?

Also, let's discuss the point that the treatment actually works. What do you say to that?

I know someone who has something similar to bipolar and when she takes treatment she's back to normal in about three days. Otherwise it would stay for a few weeks, even a month.
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Tariqa
12-28-2008, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
One question. Do you have any training in the area of psychology or science? What makes you so sure that what you are saying is correct?

Also, let's discuss the point that the treatment actually works. What do you say to that?

I know someone who has something similar to bipolar and when she takes treatment she's back to normal in about three days. Otherwise it would stay for a few weeks, even a month.

Actually with all respect to your Friend there is no such thing as a success in treating any of these disorders because technically their is no proof to prove whether it was the treatment that helped the problem or something else... To understand if the treatment actually worked you would first have to understand what science is all about.. In science their is something called a variable, factors, controls and what not..When testing there must be physical proof to indicate that from the trails something was altered or not..


Basically in the case of mental illness there is no physical proof to indicate whether the "chemical imbalance" was corrected or not because the chemical imbalance cannot be found to begin the treatment in the first place..
Therefore there cannot be any physical evidence of a correction hence there cannot be a statement which implies that the treatment was a success.




If you are using the treatment to study a behavior and you would like to know did the drug treat that particular behavior then you may be permitted to state that but in this case, the case of mentally ill patients, they are diagnosed with a physical disorder and are to take a physical medication for treatment..

You may be confused but you cannot say that something has worked until you know what it worked against.. what did the medication treat?? What is mental illness..How can you evaluate a norm of behavior?? How would you ever understand what "normal" is...???

Either way whatever you are evaluating it is wrong to say because of lack of evidence.. Behavior changes responsive to treatment does not mean the treatment works because the treatment could just be a placebo to all.. A placebo means that it treats the problem but not in the way it is believed to treat meaning the patient undergoes false deception lies, or is not completely aware of what is taken place...


Hence we cannot say that any mental illness treatments have worked for the basis on lack of evidence...
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themuffinman
12-30-2008, 08:11 PM
i think mental illnesses do exist. didn't the prophet say the pen is lifted on people who are insane? meaning they have no accountability of the sins and good deeds they do if they are insane?
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Muezzin
12-30-2008, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
This thread is for the Muslims who have adapted the science of psychology...

Is this field allowed for Muslims to study and practice???
Of course.

Many people believe there are nothing but lies in this field that are against Islam..
Many people believe a lot of things. It doesn't make them correct.

The study of mental illness is alone a doubtful matter...
People diagnosed with mental illness have no proof that this disease exist...
The people diagnosed with a mental illness are not the people you want to ask for proof of their own mental illness. For proof, ask psychiatrists and psychologists.

Mental illness is a theory...there is no scientific proof though they call it a science it has no solid proof....
I'm fighting so hard not to use one of those 'facepalm' pictures floating around the Internet.

Is it halal for Muslims to use this study for life purposes??
Of course. Otherwise there would be not even be medical doctors.

To answer that question we should use the rule of thumb and ask well why not??

Many people believe that mental illness itself are lies... Though they do not say it is fact and they do say it is their opinion, they still diagnose people with illness and treat them....Some patients have to take medications which could kill them in the same year... In fact more deaths have been associated with mental illness than all US wars combined...Medical malpractice is at a height and staggering amounts concerning this field.. The trail and error has seemed to be non existent because since the field was created there have not been one documented cure in the entire history of the profession....
There are many different kinds of mental illness. There is no miracle cure for mental illness as a whole, just as there is no miracle cure for non-mentall illness as a whole.

The part of Mental Illness that is accused of oppression (Haram)

It would not be so bad if it were only a voluntary practice. Unfortunately in many ,if not all, countries that treat for mental illness, they have a program where if a subject is seeming to be too ill he will be involuntarily committed to a hospital and his whole life would be stopped for treatment against his will..If he dies under treatment this would be a murder to many in Islam and thought..
If the mental illness presents a danger to the patient or others, it's for the best.

And I fail to see how a patient dying in a mental institute is a victim of murder, solely by virtue of dying there.

Did that make sense when you wrote it?

A profession of murder??

How could Muslims allow this indeed.?? How can we force a man to undergo treatment when the proof is nonexistent..
Still... fighting... not... to... facepalm...

Again there is no proof to prove the existence of mental illness therefore if any one is treated for something he does not have this is a sort of tempering with the laws of allah..
What?

If one is accused of anything he should be accused of the rightful crime and nothing more or less... If anything else this is playing with the al hudud and creating lies, slandering, and wrongful accusations, false witness and in the case of mental illness, abuse, torture and/or death..

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Far7an
12-30-2008, 08:50 PM
Here is what the ulemah say:

Sh Salman Al Oadah

Question: What is the Islamic ruling of studying Psychology in a western university for the purpose of getting degree and being able to work as a psychiatrist? Someone told me that Psychology as a separate subject does not exist in Islam and therefore should not be delt with as a separate subject.

Answered by Sheikh Salman al-Oadah


The knowledge of psychology is based on experimentation and observation. It can be carried out by both Muslims and non-Muslims. This is similar to any other branch of scientific and medical knowledge. You can study it in an Arab or western country as long as you abide by Islamic Law.
Sh Salih Al Munajjid recommends books for psychology. http://islamqa.com/en/ref/605
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Woodrow
12-30-2008, 08:56 PM
There seems to be a lot of confussion as to just what psychologist and psychiatrists do.

First a psychiatrist is a medical MD and treats mental illness with medications. Most of the Mental disorders listed in the DSM respond well to medical treatment the most common ones, schizophrenia and Bi-polar disorder are clearly the result of hormonal imbalaces. Bi-polar is very easily treated with lithium-carbonate, schizophrenia is a bit more difficult, however the most common and delibitating form of it, paranoia schizophenia responds very well to thorazine and a few other medications.

As a psychologist I was more interested in qualatative and quantitative measurements. Psychology is a field of measurements and testing and not a field of treatment. Although some psychologists do enter into the field of psych-therapy, which seems to be the common view of what a psychologist does.

But, true treatment of mental illness, is a bonafide area of physical medicine. No different than surgery, or dermatology.
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Far7an
12-30-2008, 09:04 PM
I was going to post more statements from scholars about mental illness and how it does occur, however if you go to literally every fatwa site you'll see the shaykh giving their solution to mental illness, surely if they're offering a cure.... they acknowledge its existence?! :confused:
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Tariqa
12-30-2008, 11:52 PM
Please the next person do nto confuse mental illness with insnanity,....mental illness is a new branch of theory while insanity was known in older times...

There is no proof ask a doctor for proof of mental illness.. you will not find it..how can you say disoders such as depression is clearly hormonal when there is no clear proof???

the scholars do not know everything...their are many things the scholars have made rulings on and after much research changed their rulings... that is the thnig abotu fatwas the change with time..with mental ilness allot of scholars probely do not focus or know much about it so they do not make enough rulings.. i can assure you i have done the research..there is no proof to justify any treaments of mental illness. You say that some disorders are responsive to some medications is the same as saying some people in the cold resomnds to heat and some people in the heat resomnds to cool.. this does not prove anything but a behavorial choice, behavior and lifestyle is not biological.. we need facts and not poetry and metaphores..
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Malaikah
12-31-2008, 03:30 AM
Okay, Tariqa. Why don't you provide us with the proof of what you are saying then??
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Woodrow
12-31-2008, 03:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
Please the next person do nto confuse mental illness with insnanity,....mental illness is a new branch of theory while insanity was known in older times...

There is no proof ask a doctor for proof of mental illness.. you will not find it..how can you say disoders such as depression is clearly hormonal when there is no clear proof???

the scholars do not know everything...their are many things the scholars have made rulings on and after much research changed their rulings... that is the thnig abotu fatwas the change with time..with mental ilness allot of scholars probely do not focus or know much about it so they do not make enough rulings.. i can assure you i have done the research..there is no proof to justify any treaments of mental illness. You say that some disorders are responsive to some medications is the same as saying some people in the cold resomnds to heat and some people in the heat resomnds to cool.. this does not prove anything but a behavorial choice, behavior and lifestyle is not biological.. we need facts and not poetry and metaphores..
Clinical depression is a disorder of the limbic system. The problem is caused by a lack of some neurotransmitters primarily seratonin. It is treated by replacement therapy usually with medications that are percursors of seratonin, The result is the body is able to produce more of it's natural seratonin bringing the level back to a point of normal ranges.

The causes of clinical depression are many usually disease related, it is often an early symptom of other diseases such as diabetes. There does seem to be a strong relationship between clinical depression and disorders of the pancreas also.

Some other causes of depression are low blood pressure, low grade infections, fever, malabsorbtion of food, etc. The final long range cure is to identify the physical cause and treat that. Until that is found, the temporary treatment is the use of anti-depressants that either duplicate seratonin or facilitate the body to produce more.

Other mental disorders are caused by injury, disease, some toxins, dysfucntions of the CNS and other physical ailments.

Insanity is not a psychiatric term, it is a legal term used to define a person's ability to stand trial in a court of law.

There is a division in the types of disorders. Those with a physical basis such as genetics, injury or disease. And there are behavioral disorders and personality disorders. There is disagreement among those in the fields as to which are truly medical disorders and which are behavioral/personality disorders. Behavioral and personality disorders usually do not respond well to medical treatment, except in cases where the goal is to sedate the person sufficiently so they do not pose a danger to themselves or to others. The treatment for those is counseling, Behavior modification, and or psychiatric therapy. There is much debate over what techniques actually work and which simply train the person to hide the disorder. The qualifications to be a therapist varies from locale to locale. In some places to practice as a therapist, no training is required, in other locales the therapist needs to have at least a Ph D and practice under the direction of a medical doctor.
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islamirama
12-31-2008, 03:44 AM
How about some proof and source for all these fatwas you have been posting all over the forum. I like to see a source for every fatwa on every thread you have posted. That is also a rule on this forum, provide source for anything you claim is from Islam.
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Woodrow
12-31-2008, 03:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
How about some proof and source for all these fatwas you have been posting all over the forum. I like to see a source for every fatwa on every thread you have posted. That is also a rule on this forum, provide source for anything you claim is from Islam.
Very true. It seems myself and the mods have gotten a bit lax about enforcing that.

However, in spite of that I am not going to close this thread. Although it would be appreciated if Brother Tariqa did produce a valid fatwa to support his claim.

In the mean time I will continue with my view that Psychiatry is a legitimate field of medicine and psychology is a legitimate field of scientific measuring.
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doorster
12-31-2008, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Clinical depression is a disorder of the limbic system. The problem is caused by a lack of some neurotransmitters primarily seratonin. It is treated by replacement therapy usually with medications that are percursors of seratonin, The result is the body is able to produce more of it's natural seratonin bringing the level back to a point of normal ranges.

The causes of clinical depression are many usually disease related, it is often an early symptom of other diseases such as diabetes. There does seem to be a strong relationship between clinical depression and disorders of the pancreas also.

Some other causes of depression are low blood pressure, low grade infections, fever, malabsorbtion of food, etc. The final long range cure is to identify the physical cause and treat that. Until that is found, the temporary treatment is the use of anti-depressants that either duplicate seratonin or facilitate the body to produce more.

Other mental disorders are caused by injury, disease, some toxins, dysfucntions of the CNS and other physical ailments.

Insanity is not a psychiatric term, it is a legal term used to define a person's ability to stand trial in a court of law.

There is a division in the types of disorders. Those with a physical basis such as genetics, injury or disease. And there are behavioral disorders and personality disorders. There is disagreement among those in the fields as to which are truly medical disorders and which are behavioral/personality disorders. Behavioral and personality disorders usually do not respond well to medical treatment, except in cases where the goal is to sedate the person sufficiently so they do not pose a danger to themselves or to others. The treatment for those is counseling, Behavior modification, and or psychiatric therapy. There is much debate over what techniques actually work and which simply train the person to hide the disorder. The qualifications to be a therapist varies from locale to locale. In some places to practice as a therapist, no training is required, in other locales the therapist needs to have at least a Ph D and practice under the direction of a medical doctor.
^^ Salam Alaikum Br. Woodrow

be that as it may but I do not think that this person is interested in facts. seeing from all his spamming, it looks as if he wants to destroy us

according to some of his comments:

  1. we should leave free world and go live under tyranny (e.g. saudi arabia where one can get around 50 lashes per week for failing to help a drug addict member of a Prince's harem or Pakistan where one can be murdered in the night for not calling onself a salafi and now one can also be killed for sending a daughter to school
  2. we should abandon science and medicine (probably in favor of medieval spells and exorcists)

I have also come across another loony toon dude who also says that depressed people are all allies of the devil and are at war with The God. i.e they are only happy while sinning due to satan but then are abandoned by him until the next sin (next dose of "evil" western medicine).
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Woodrow
12-31-2008, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
^^ Salam Alaikum Br. Woodrow

be that as it may but I do not think that this person is interested in facts. seeing from all his spamming, it looks as if he wants to destroy us
On this point I disagree with you. I believe he is sincere and it is his intent to bring what he sees as errors to our attention

according to some of his comments:

1)we should leave free world and go live under tyranny (e.g. saudi arabia where one can get around 50 lashes per week for failing to help a drug addict member of a Prince's harem or Pakistan where one can be murdered in the night for not calling onself a salafi and now one can also be killed for sending a daughter to school
I suspect he has never lived in the mid-East. In theory it does seem that some of the mid-East countries are the most Islamic in the world. Sadly I did not find that to be true and the laws are more Western than those of many Western Countries. Although I was not Muslim at the time I lived in the mid-East. I did get some wrong ideas about Islam from the Muslims there. Fortunatly, I did find some pious Muslims in non-Islamic countries that showed me what Islam really is. To be fair I did meet some devout pious Muslims in Makkah, Medinah, Fez, Tehran and a f

2)we should abandon science and medicine (probably in favor of medieval spells and exorcists)
I agree with you, that does seem to be what he is saying I also find that to be the view of some extremist Christian denominations, particulary among the Pentecostals and the Church of Christ denominations.

I have also come across another loony toon dude who also says that depressed people are all allies of the devil and are at war with The God. i.e they are only happy while sinning due to satan but then are abandoned by him until the next sin (next dose of "evil" western medicine).
Many people still do not see mental illness as a treatable disease, they tend to think it is a behavioral choice and the result of immoral behavior. That is like saying people choose to get cholera.
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Tariqa
12-31-2008, 05:15 AM
I apologize if anyone has misunderstood me.. I am not a crack pot nor does anyone hear me issuing fatwas though they are accusing me of issuing fatwas. If you take a look at each of my post, i only bring the problem to the attention of the Muslim so we can discuss. If anyone says anything wrong that is when i combat that because we cannot discuss anything when someone thinks what they are saying is an opinion when it is clearly a fact...

To the miss who would like proof, it seems you do not understand my view.. You see i am the one that denies mental illness as being a real disease because the experts of mental illness all say that there is not enough proof at this time to prove of its existence, and it has been like this for over 150 years since the beginning of the theory, no breakthroughs have been discovered to this day..

Please miss tell me what you would like proof on because you are asking exactly what i am asking.. i would like proof.. I am asking to the person that says clinical depression is caused by such and such to give me a lab test right now from the INTERNET like xrays can see tumors.. bring us all a picture and statistics numbers that prove what you say is true..
You see miss i cannot prove mental illness is not true because the doctors cannot prove that it is true.. confusing is it?? Until they do not prove it i stand corrected...





Again to the admin who is saying or is stating that depression is cause by chemical imbalances i say prove it.... You forget mister that depression is not a law.. in every case you will not find anything wrong with the limbic system. not in a one or 2 patients but in millions of patients you will not find anything wrong with their limbic system and they will still be diagnosed with depression.. so how do you explain the patients that have been diagnoses with depression and their blood test, cat scans, mri's, and x rays all test negative for any disorder biological?? And statistics make this number allot higher so i assure you it is no coninceidence...

I see you cannot prove that what you have said is a fact so in Islam you are lying.. Any Muslim that makes a statement and passes that statement of as a factual statement even if it is true and does not have the proof nor does he know himself, he is a liar... I'm sorry mister but even the doctors do not claim to know what cause depression or any disorder they only have suspicions or hypothesis, good guess, studies and predictions, but no real proof..

So mister next time you explain to us what cause depression you should remember to say first that this is what you think or believe or you should say that scientist believe or studies indicate but never should a Muslim make a statement and act as if it is true and have no proof to back this statement up subanallah...may Allah forgive the weak actions of the Muslims indeed..


Again for those that want proof please explain to me what proof you are looking for because i am not here making anything up or making any fatwas...actually you never hear me make any rulings at all in this thread i do not think so if you accuse me of something i do not do may the angle invoke the wrath of Allah upon those accusing me of what is not true and clear my name ameen...


For those statements about the middle east.. i do not need to know what goes on over there.. it is a shame that some of you Muslims think that if a Muslim drink more alcohol overseas in a Muslim land and the non Muslims do not, you all would say that the Muslim land is worst then the non Muslim land?? subannallah does not Allah say that the best non Muslims is always worst then the worst Muslim.. no matter how many sins go on overseas they are our brothers in Islam and never should we degrade them so much as to put them below in the eyes of Allah under a filthy kafir for anything and raise the non Muslim who does not even believe in a god over the Muslims that at least knows who his creator is..may Allah also forgive those statements indeed...


again i do not think all medication is bad.. remember black seed was recommend for Muslims to take.. if black seed is permissible then how can i be against medications.. however i think society has became so intoxicated with the prescribing and using of drugs i think Allah will punish many nations for their medical habits as it has become extremely sick the way Nations are wasting and spending on medical drugs,which if pateints are not commiting mass suicide upon deaths but are commiting mass murders giving this poision to many loved ones or hated ones indeed it is disgusting .. mental illness is proof in itself that the drugging of societies have become so widespread and common that one does not even need proof anymore to diagnoses a person with a disorder and immediately get him so high out of his mind, he would never remember any disorders he might have been accused of having in the first place....what a true shame it is indeed.








Until there comes to the table real solid proof of mental illness we may continue to think it is nothing more than a pseudoscience.. the statistic are staggering and so many people are dying from misdiagnosing its certified enough to be called a crises at this point ... this is not a matter of choice.. our peoples and humanities peoples lives are at stake here if we do not stand up against this inhumane treatment to mankind at once.. may Allah protect us from the evils of this modern world and from the false indoctrination that has fell upon the minds of the communities in society..
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wth1257
12-31-2008, 05:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
You may have never heard that mental illness is false because people do not like to discuss this matter...
To be fair ahki there is currently no proof to prove that mental illness for mental disorders are real regarding chemical imbalances in what not.. I cannot say as of yet that they are lies and metaphors because there is no proof on both sides.. One side is saying it is true while the other is saying is not.. The only thing side b can do is tell side a to prove it.. Until side a proves it side b has a valid opinion that mental illness is not true because it has no proof....

This is clearly differing from sciences like medical disorders such as cancer where lab test can prove its existence.. The same cannot be said for mental illness... There are no lab tests that confirms its validity even yet and still people are treated for a disorder that cannot be proved or seen.....
And I can say that you are incorrect and need to read up on the subject a bit.
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Tariqa
12-31-2008, 05:30 AM
Tell me where i am incorrect at.. i have done som much research i think it is best that even i do not do anymore research.. i have studied so many places.. if i am incorrect then you prove me wrong since it is you that is accusing me of injustice and if you can find no proof then may you ask allah for complete forgviness for your disgusting accusations and your utter lack of knowledge...
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doorster
12-31-2008, 05:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
.. I am not a crack pot ...
can you prove it?
Again to the admin who is saying or is stating that depression is cause by chemical imbalances i say prove it.... You forget mister that depression is not a law..
if there is NO real mental illness then why did Allah and his Prophet prohibit punishments for crimes by the mentally ill (except in afghani/saudi/iranian practice due to distorted versions of Islam)?

edit:

and why was first ever psychiatric hospital in the world opened by Muslims?
:peace:
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Snowflake
12-31-2008, 06:05 AM
:sl:

Actually, psychiatry has a proud early history in Islam. It was islamic psychological thought that lead to the establishment of first mental hospitals. Terms like psychology didn't exist at that time. However in their works muslim scholars wrote extensively about human psychology under 'diseases of the mind and their cures' (al-‘ilaj al-nafs) the self, psyche etc... So 'mental illness' is not a new theory and no offence, but your knowledge cannot compare to great physicians like Ibn Sinna who has described many mental disorders in his 'Qanun of Medicine' which was one of the most famous books in the history of medicine and remained so for centuries.


In shariah law too, rights and obligations depend on a persons legal competence which depends largely on intellectual competence. The mentally retarded/insane cannot be considered fit for practical functions and the degree of mental capacity varies from person to person and has to be assessed by a psychologist etc.


:w:








P.S. Ibn Sinna described love as one of the 'mental disorders' lol ;D
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north_malaysian
12-31-2008, 06:09 AM
my sister is a psychology officer at a ministry in Malaysia...

she graduated from the same university with me, Int'l Islamic Univ. Malaysia.... with a degree in psychology...

i dont think that psychology is unislamic as it's being offered in an Islamic university...
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جوري
12-31-2008, 06:10 AM
There is alot of crap in Psychiatry it is true but there is concrete of science too
we've made strides in the portion of psychiatry that touches upon neuroscience..

Can Klüver-Bucy syndrome cause behavioral problems? You bet and indeed it is linked to damage to both of the anterior temporal lobes of the brain!
Can Progressive Multifocal Leukoencephalopathy cause behavioral problems? sure it can
Can schizophrenia cause behavioral problems? you bet
How about Parkinson? sure
How about Lewy body dementia, Huntington syndrome? Alzheimer's-- you bet
How about Seizures and all its subtypes? Of course.. are they all provable by palpable science.. Many aren't -- some found out posthumously through autopsies if allowed!

I need not sit here and list chapters in the field of Psychiatry to make a point, but will pose you this question.. Can you personally prove to anyone especially a health care professional when you have a headache? or when your headache comes with changes in visual patterns better known as 'scintillating scotoma'? We have no Headache-O-Meters in the field of medicine and folks personally have to go on your subjective sensation of pain.. I am sure all of us have collectively experienced a headache-- can any of us prove it?...

I will not argue against some of the floating bull **** theories in psychology but psychiatry is an actual field of medicine, has its esoterics but I recommend you walk around the psych. ward every now and then, see for yourself how exactly it is that as you proclaim it is against Islam or any religion at all for that matter, and whether or not these folks need help or can simply while away their delusions with prayers?

to every Ailment there is a cure, so tells us prophet Mohammed SAW.. I think perhaps you should re-consider before in a massive sweep reducing an entire science to an illusory feat!

my two cents

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
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Woodrow
12-31-2008, 07:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
I apologize if anyone has misunderstood me.. I am not a crack pot nor does anyone hear me issuing fatwas though they are accusing me of issuing fatwas. If you take a look at each of my post, i only bring the problem to the attention of the Muslim so we can discuss. If anyone says anything wrong that is when i combat that because we cannot discuss anything when someone thinks what they are saying is an opinion when it is clearly a fact.....
I accept you are expressing your opinion and not trying to give fatwa or interpret any fatwas. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to express it. But, it seems some thought you were expressing the teachings of scholars and some fatwas that have been issued

To the miss who would like proof, it seems you do not understand my view.. You see i am the one that denies mental illness as being a real disease because the experts of mental illness all say that there is not enough proof at this time to prove of its existence, and it has been like this for over 150 years since the beginning of the theory, no breakthroughs have been discovered to this day..
I can not speak for the Miss, only for myself. Having worked in the field of physiological psychology for a number of years before my retirement in 1999 I feel I am qualified to express my findings from the more than one cadaver I dissected. From my personal findings I did find significant changes in the brain tissue from those diagnosed with clinical depression, Bi-Polar disorder and Schizophrenia. I will not quote from my own writings but from those of some of my former collegues and/or mentors.

First from Dr. Jose Delgado one of the pioneers in neuro anatomy and a leading physician in the treatment of epilepsy (which at one time was considered a psychiatric disorder)
Another brain-implantation pioneer, José Manuel Rodríguez Delgado, described how he induced the same effect in reverse: when a particular point on a heterosexual man’s brain was stimulated, the subject expressed doubt about his sexual identity, even suggesting he wanted to marry his male interviewer and saying, “I’d like to be a girl.”

That experiment is described in Delgado’s riveting 1969 book, Physical Control of the Mind. A flamboyant Spanish-born Yale neuroscientist, Delgado, like Heath, began exploring in the 1950s the electrical stimulation of the reward and aversion centers in humans and animals—what he called “heaven and hell within the brain.” Like Heath, Delgado tells stories of patients whose moods shifted after their brains were stimulated—some becoming friendlier or flirtatious, others becoming fearful or angry. He describes artificially inducing anxiety in one woman so that she kept looking behind her and said “she felt a threat and thought that something horrible was going to happen.” In other patients, Delgado triggered hallucinations and déjà vu

Source:http://www.thenewatlantis.com/public...uroelectronics .
Dr. Delgado's work opened the doors of physiological psychology and pointed that changes various areas of the mimiced various mental disorders and/or could be used to trat same. Bringing about the realization that mental disorders have a physical basis.

Please miss tell me what you would like proof on because you are asking exactly what i am asking.. i would like proof.. I am asking to the person that says clinical depression is caused by such and such to give me a lab test right now from the INTERNET like xrays can see tumors.. bring us all a picture and statistics numbers that prove what you say is true..
You see miss i cannot prove mental illness is not true because the doctors cannot prove that it is true.. confusing is it?? Until they do not prove it i stand corrected...
Again I can not speak for the miss, but some symptoms of clinical depression are:

Symptoms of depression include:

Loss of interest in normal daily activities
Feeling sad or down
Feeling hopeless
Crying spells for no apparent reason
Problems sleeping
Trouble focusing or concentrating
Difficulty making decisions
Unintentional weight gain or loss
Irritability
Restlessness
Being easily annoyed
Feeling fatigued or weak
Feeling worthless
Loss of interest in sex
Thoughts of suicide or suicidal behavior
Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headaches

Some of the suspected causes are:

Biochemical. Some evidence from high-tech imaging studies indicates that people with depression have physical changes in their brains. The significance of these changes is still uncertain but may eventually help pinpoint causes. The naturally occurring brain chemicals called neurotransmitters, which are linked to mood, also may play a role in depression. Hormonal imbalances also could be a culprit.
Genes. Some studies show that depression is more common in people whose biological family members also have the condition. Researchers are trying to find genes that may be involved in causing depression.
Environment. Environment is also thought to play a causal role in some way. Environmental causes are situations in your life that are difficult to cope with, such as the loss of a loved one, financial problems and high stress. Source: http://www.revolutionhealth.com/cond...ion=section_02

I include the above mainly because I found similar biochemical changes in the brains I dissected that came from people who where known to have suffered from depression.

As far as diagnosing Clinical Depression it is complicated and requires a battery of both physical exams and personal interview as the physical symptoms can be identical to the symptoms of other diseases. However the physical diagnosis is needed to diagnose a person as having clinical depression.

I wanted to give the findings of some of the researchers in the field of Deprssion, However the person I believe the most qualified is now deceased and I can not find any of her writings. She was a fellow student with me in our undergraduate days her name is Dr. Anna Marie Singdahlsen. She passed away in 1995.











Again to the admin who is saying or is stating that depression is cause by chemical imbalances i say prove it.... You forget mister that depression is not a law.. in every case you will not find anything wrong with the limbic system. not in a one or 2 patients but in millions of patients you will not find anything wrong with their limbic system and they will still be diagnosed with depression.. so how do you explain the patients that have been diagnoses with depression and their blood test, cat scans, mri's, and x rays all test negative for any disorder biological?? And statistics make this number allot higher so i assure you it is no coninceidence...
In every brain I examened of people diagnosed with clinical depression, I found changes in the limbic system. I was not the only psychologist to find the same.

Neuropsychophysiological Explanations:

The consistent finding of neuropsycholphysiological studies of depression is that abnormally low levels of neurotransmitters - mainly norepinepherine, dopamine and serotonin - appear to be linked to depression. Other findings correlate with an imbalance of the thalamocortical circuiting and feedback and gating circuits. In the depressed state the overactive circuits represent autonomous and exaggerated activity of prefrontal or basal ganglia circuits that code for negative imagery of self and the larger world3..

Work as early as 1937 (Papez, 1937) suggested that reverberations through the limbic system were responsible for generating emotional activity. And subsequent studies as well as PET investigations in 1992 by Drevets et.al., found that increased blood flow through the amygdala may be a trait marker for depressive disorders whether depression is manifest or not. Drevets, in comparing his findings to other neurophysiological data available, suggests that the functioning of a prefrontal-amygdala-medial dorsal thalmic circuitry is overactive in a depressed individual's brain3.. CT studies by Schlegal & Ketzschmar in 1987 cited ventricular enlargement in unipolar as well as bipolar depression
Source: http://www.angelfire.com/journal/ldps/Depression.htm
I see you cannot prove that what you have said is a fact so in Islam you are lying.. Any Muslim that makes a statement and passes that statement of as a factual statement even if it is true and does not have the proof nor does he know himself, he is a liar... I'm sorry mister but even the doctors do not claim to know what cause depression or any disorder they only have suspicions or hypothesis, good guess, studies and predictions, but no real proof..
I consider my own findings and the agreement of my collegues as proof of a physical basis for clinical depression. As I stated before I was not the only researcher and Psychologist to come to the same conclusions.

So mister next time you explain to us what cause depression you should remember to say first that this is what you think or believe or you should say that scientist believe or studies indicate but never should a Muslim make a statement and act as if it is true and have no proof to back this statement up subanallah...may Allah forgive the weak actions of the Muslims indeed..
I am stating what I saw with my own eyes as a scientist and Psychologist. the physical facts are there, if you care to look.

Here is an image of a CAT scan showing the differences in the brain of a clinicaly depressed person and a person not diagnosed with it.

This is from the Mayo clinic




Again for those that want proof please explain to me what proof you are looking for because i am not here making anything up or making any fatwas...actually you never hear me make any rulings at all in this thread i do not think so if you accuse me of something i do not do may the angle invoke the wrath of Allah upon those accusing me of what is not true and clear my name ameen...
I will accept your word as a Muslim that your intent is being misunderstood by some of us. For that I apologise and accept your sincerity in posting


For those statements about the middle east.. i do not need to know what goes on over there.. it is a shame that some of you Muslims think that if a Muslim drink more alcohol overseas in a Muslim land and the non Muslims do not, you all would say that the Muslim land is worst then the non Muslim land?? subannallah does not Allah say that the best non Muslims is always worst then the worst Muslim.. no matter how many sins go on overseas they are our brothers in Islam and never should we degrade them so much as to put them below in the eyes of Allah under a filthy kafir for anything and raise the non Muslim who does not even believe in a god over the Muslims that at least knows who his creator is..may Allah also forgive those statements indeed...
Just from personal experience I find it to be impossible for me to live as a Muslim in the Muslim countries I have lived in or visited. There are some cities that are exceptions such as Makkah, Medina, and Fez. I find it is impossible for me to get a residency visa for Makkah or Medinah so they are out. Fez is a dream and a possibility, but not too realistic because of my age and limited income. But, I have not given up hope of moving to Fez one day Inshallah. This is one reason I keep Fez in my signature if you scroll down on it.


again i do not think all medication is bad.. remember black seed was recommend for Muslims to take.. if black seed is permissible then how can i be against medications.. however i think society has became so intoxicated with the prescribing and using of drugs i think Allah will punish many nations for their medical habits as it has become extremely sick the way Nations are wasting and spending on medical drugs,which if pateints are not commiting mass suicide upon deaths but are commiting mass murders giving this poision to many loved ones or hated ones indeed it is disgusting .. mental illness is proof in itself that the drugging of societies have become so widespread and common that one does not even need proof anymore to diagnoses a person with a disorder and immediately get him so high out of his mind, he would never remember any disorders he might have been accused of having in the first place....what a true shame it is indeed.
Sadly I do agree with you, in many cases patients are overly medicated. I can give reasons but not any justifications as to why that happens. I no longer take any medications, not even aspirins. Currently the only medical devices I use are the hearing aides and eyeglasses I have been prescribed.

I do agree my attitude towards medications is extreme and should not be followed by most people. Prudent medication is a necessity for some people.








Until there comes to the table real solid proof of mental illness we may continue to think it is nothing more than a pseudoscience.. the statistic are staggering and so many people are dying from misdiagnosing its certified enough to be called a crises at this point ... this is not a matter of choice.. our peoples and humanities peoples lives are at stake here if we do not stand up against this inhumane treatment to mankind at once.. may Allah protect us from the evils of this modern world and from the false indoctrination that has fell upon the minds of the communities in society
Having spent a good bit of my life as a psychologist, I disagree with you about it being a pseudoscience. It is a fairly new field to be recognized as a bonafide science and until the early 20th century it was considered to be a field of philosophy. but, it gained the recognition of being a science when the early researchers proved that the findings were quantified, measurable and could be replicated.
Reply

Zamtsa
12-31-2008, 07:34 AM
Syaikh Nashir Al Albaani in one of his fatwa had praised Psychology, what he hated from it was the Philosophy of it, like Socrates', Plato's and Hypocrates', better to learn Islam's Psychology which is in the book of Tazkiyatun Nufus by syaikhul Islam Ibn Taimiyyah.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.
Reply

Woodrow
12-31-2008, 08:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Thayyib
Syaikh Nashir Al Albaani in one of his fatwa had praised Psychology, what he hated from it was the Philosophy of it, like Socrates', Plato's and Hypocrates', better to learn Islam's Psychology which is in the book of Tazkiyatun Nufus by syaikhul Islam Ibn Taimiyyah.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.
It is true that in the not very distant past psychology was a branch of philosophy. However, these days most if not all psychologists have been taught it as a science and follow the same basic premed criteria as Medical doctors. But there are at least 85 different fields of psychology and numerous disciplines in each field, so it is possible that a person can run into a psychologist who seems to be more of a philosopher than a scientist.

The rule is exam the credentials of any person who labels himself a psychologist and do not be afraid to ask questions. Not all who call themselves psychologists are psychologists. In the USA ask to see his/her membership card for the APA (American Psychological Association) do not be fooled by APA cards for the American Psychotherapists Association. A psychotherapist may not be a psychologist.
Reply

Tariqa
12-31-2008, 08:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I accept you are expressing your opinion and not trying to give fatwa or interpret any fatwas. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to express it. But, it seems some thought you were expressing the teachings of scholars and some fatwas that have been issued

Again i apologize and it is true some of what i was saying was completely from my thoughts and some were a mix between things i feel and what also many scholars do as well..

I can not speak for the Miss, only for myself. Having worked in the field of physiological psychology for a number of years before my retirement in 1999 I feel I am qualified to express my findings from the more than one cadaver I dissected. From my personal findings I did find significant changes in the brain tissue from those diagnosed with clinical depression, Bi-Polar disorder and Schizophrenia. I will not quote from my own writings but from those of some of my former collegues and/or mentors.


I understand your studies leads you to believe that mental illnesses are in fact biological due to those test but how can you use those test against statistics.. Remember the statistics shows that majority of the mentally ill patients do not test for any abnormality in brain activity..Can you use your studies as facts for the entire population of mental illness?? you can not but at least you can have strong opinions but not facts.. not even scholars have facts on their opinions thats why they call it differences of opinions... its not 100% prove but 99.9% is good enough in this case of mental illness its more like 20 to 45%..if even that high sadly

First from Dr. Jose Delgado one of the pioneers in neuro anatomy and a leading physician in the treatment of epilepsy (which at one time was considered a psychiatric disorder)


Dr. Delgado's work opened the doors of physiological psychology and pointed that changes various areas of the mimiced various mental disorders and/or could be used to trat same. Bringing about the realization that mental disorders have a physical basis.

I think you mean to say that mental disorders could or show strong signs, not that his work proved the theory right because if he proved it then we would not be differing today..

Again I can not speak for the miss, but some symptoms of clinical depression are:

Symptoms of depression include:

Loss of interest in normal daily activities
Feeling sad or down
Feeling hopeless
Crying spells for no apparent reason
Problems sleeping
Trouble focusing or concentrating
Difficulty making decisions
Unintentional weight gain or loss
Irritability
Restlessness
Being easily annoyed
Feeling fatigued or weak
Feeling worthless
Loss of interest in sex
Thoughts of suicide or suicidal behavior
Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headaches

Some of the suspected causes are:

Biochemical. Some evidence from high-tech imaging studies indicates that people with depression have physical changes in their brains. The significance of these changes is still uncertain but may eventually help pinpoint causes. The naturally occurring brain chemicals called neurotransmitters, which are linked to mood, also may play a role in depression. Hormonal imbalances also could be a culprit.
Genes. Some studies show that depression is more common in people whose biological family members also have the condition. Researchers are trying to find genes that may be involved in causing depression.
Environment. Environment is also thought to play a causal role in some way. Environmental causes are situations in your life that are difficult to cope with, such as the loss of a loved one, financial problems and high stress. Source: http://www.revolutionhealth.com/cond...ion=section_02

Keyword SUSPECTED not known because if it was proved to be a fact or known then we again wouldn't be having this discussion most likely.











In every brain I examined of people diagnosed with clinical depression, I found changes in the limbic system. I was not the only psychologist to find the same.

No disrespect but you are only one man.. your studies do not prove facts about mental illness when majority of other scientist studies are opposite of your own..




I consider my own findings and the agreement of my collegues as proof of a physical basis for clinical depression. As I stated before I was not the only researcher and Psychologist to come to the same conclusions.

This part is the part that gets to me.. How can one man consider his tiny test that he did with a few trials to be proof?? Your test has to coincide with the majority of the other scientist that test exactly as you do.. this has to be at least over a 90% chance testing rate consented among the whole of the science community.. we are talking about something that is a minority if I'm not mistake it is more like 20& or around that number.. We are not close at all to finding what we are looking for... I do not think w will find it and i think that those test are purely statistical i mean really what are you looking for with those cat scans?? And who makes up these disorders..?? How do you know it is not a big coincidence.?? the members and statistics would make it seem to be more than a coincidence.. the numbers may prove that this field is a downright lie....You are missing the point...If my tongue hurts and I'm sad that does not make me insane or mentally ill... you don't seem to get it.. Who decides what normal or not... Behavior is not a disease.. this is ludacris...in my opinion..


Here is an image of a CAT scan showing the differences in the brain of a clinically depressed person and a person not diagnosed with it.

This is from the Mayo clinic



Tell me again do ALL depressed people diagnosed with this disorder brains look like that?? If not then why don't you explain exactly HOW MANY people diagnosed with depression brains look like that?? If the number is less than half around 20% or 15 % then tell me how can you even get close enough to say that this is what you based what you call off as a scientific proof or fact??

I will accept your word as a Muslim that your intent is being misunderstood by some of us. For that I apologies and accept your sincerity in posting

Mahshallah may Allah accept your apology and mines as well my Allah forgive you as well as may Allah forgive me..inshallah..

Just from personal experience I find it to be impossible for me to live as a Muslim in the Muslim countries I have lived in or visited. There are some cities that are exceptions such as Makkah, Medina, and Fez. I find it is impossible for me to get a residency visa for Makkah or Medinah so they are out. Fez is a dream and a possibility, but not too realistic because of my age and limited income. But, I have not given up hope of moving to Fez one day Inshallah. This is one reason I keep Fez in my signature if you scroll down on it.


Again,, mister no offense but if you look at my opinion i will consider you weak.. because i consider that extreme.. you live in the states and you know it is not right to be there but yet you will not leave because you will only accept 3 countries?? It sounds as if you will only accept those 3 places or nothing else and most likely you wont be getting there any time soon due to your circumstances, may allah help, but what do you plan to do in the mean time??? In my opinion i say that you are not trying to better your life or you do not see the harm and simply "living" among non Muslims let alone in a country where the sins are greater.. not to finger point but i totally agree with you.. the difference between me and you is that even though i want what you want, i will not turn down other better lands especially the better lands that are better than the states or lands with lesser evil.. and i will continue to find lands of lesser evil even if they are the poorest of countries until i can finally get close enough and perhaps make it to my destination..

Remember this is not just a lifestyle choice, it is our duty to reduce our living conditions and sin as much as possible. Our duty to choose the lesser evil in all cases..


Sadly I do agree with you, in many cases patients are overly medicated. I can give reasons but not any justifications as to why that happens. I no longer take any medications, not even aspirins. Currently the only medical devices I use are the hearing aides and eyeglasses I have been prescribed.

I do agree my attitude to wards medications is extreme and should not be followed by most people. Prudent medication is a necessity for some people.

Actually i also do not take any medication except the sunnah medications like honey and black seed.. natural medication is a whole lot better and allot healthy than the deadly poisons of the artificially conventional medications prescribed today.. Even if mental illness has some basis off validity to its "science" then it is no doubt not innocent of the over diagnosing and over medicating of society..which has led to mass deaths daily around the world in astonishing numbers...it is an atrocity indeed...

knowing how many people have died due to mis diagnosing and allow a person to still diagnose a Muslim knowing that in most cases the diagnosing will be wrong, this alone is enough to call the scholars and rule that this practice is haram in every stage... Humans are not testing animals.. we cant just sit around and let you give us drugs that could and should potentially kill us or destroy us in catastrophe while the doctors "work to magically find a cure experimenting on the patients until they" "get it right.." by that time the patient could be dead and the doctors may never get it right... This is enough to make a ruling that says that no doctor should force any Muslim to undergo a treatment that is still in a beginning stage of testing and also if that treatment has shown to fail in so many cases and trials across the world...


Having spent a good bit of my life as a psychologist, I disagree with you about it being a pseudoscience. It is a fairly new field to be recognized as a bonafide science and until the early 20th century it was considered to be a field of philosophy. but, it gained the recognition of being a science when the early researchers proved that the findings were quantified, measurable and could be replicated.
See my quote about the question as to what exactly gives a man the right to label something as "normal" or not??
Reply

Tariqa
12-31-2008, 08:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
See my quote about the question as to what exactly gives a man the right to label something as "normal" or not??


Again i apologize and it is true some of what i was saying was completely from my thoughts and some were a mix between things i feel and what also many scholars do as well..


I understand your studies leads you to believe that mental illnesses are in fact biological due to those test but how can you use those test against statistics.. Remember the statistics shows that majority of the mentally ill patients do not test for any abnormality in brain activity..Can you use your studies as facts for the entire population of mental illness?? you can not but at least you can have strong opinions but not facts.. not even scholars have facts on their opinions thats why they call it differences of opinions... its not 100% prove but 99.9% is good enough in this case of mental illness its more like 20 to 45%..if even that high sadly




I think you mean to say that mental disorders could or show strong signs, not that his work proved the theory right because if he proved it then we would not be differing today..


Keyword SUSPECTED not known because if it was proved to be a fact or known then we again wouldn't be having this discussion most likely.











No disrespect but you are only one man.. your studies do not prove facts about mental illness when majority of other scientist studies are opposite of your own..






This part is the part that gets to me.. How can one man consider his tiny test that he did with a few trials to be proof?? Your test has to coincide with the majority of the other scientist that test exactly as you do.. this has to be at least over a 90% chance testing rate consented among the whole of the science community.. we are talking about something that is a minority if I'm not mistake it is more like 20& or around that number.. We are not close at all to finding what we are looking for... I do not think w will find it and i think that those test are purely statistical i mean really what are you looking for with those cat scans?? And who makes up these disorders..?? How do you know it is not a big coincidence.?? the members and statistics would make it seem to be more than a coincidence.. the numbers may prove that this field is a downright lie....You are missing the point...If my tongue hurts and I'm sad that does not make me insane or mentally ill... you don't seem to get it.. Who decides what normal or not... Behavior is not a disease.. this is ludacris...in my opinion..





Tell me again do ALL depressed people diagnosed with this disorder brains look like that?? If not then why don't you explain exactly HOW MANY people diagnosed with depression brains look like that?? If the number is less than half around 20% or 15 % then tell me how can you even get close enough to say that this is what you based what you call off as a scientific proof or fact??



Again,, mister no offense but if you look at my opinion i will consider you weak.. because i consider that extreme.. you live in the states and you know it is not right to be there but yet you will not leave because you will only accept 3 countries?? It sounds as if you will only accept those 3 places or nothing else and most likely you wont be getting there any time soon due to your circumstances, may allah help, but what do you plan to do in the mean time??? In my opinion i say that you are not trying to better your life or you do not see the harm and simply "living" among non Muslims let alone in a country where the sins are greater.. not to finger point but i totally agree with you.. the difference between me and you is that even though i want what you want, i will not turn down other better lands especially the better lands that are better than the states or lands with lesser evil.. and i will continue to find lands of lesser evil even if they are the poorest of countries until i can finally get close enough and perhaps make it to my destination..

Remember this is not just a lifestyle choice, it is our duty to reduce our living conditions and sin as much as possible. Our duty to choose the lesser evil in all cases..




Actually i also do not take any medication except the sunnah medications like honey and black seed.. natural medication is a whole lot better and allot healthy than the deadly poisons of the artificially conventional medications prescribed today.. Even if mental illness has some basis off validity to its "science" then it is no doubt not innocent of the over diagnosing and over medicating of society..which has led to mass deaths daily around the world in astonishing numbers...it is an atrocity indeed...

knowing how many people have died due to mis diagnosing and allow a person to still diagnose a Muslim knowing that in most cases the diagnosing will be wrong, this alone is enough to call the scholars and rule that this practice is haram in every stage... Humans are not testing animals.. we cant just sit around and let you give us drugs that could and should potentially kill us or destroy us in catastrophe while the doctors "work to magically find a cure experimenting on the patients until they" "get it right.." by that time the patient could be dead and the doctors may never get it right... This is enough to make a ruling that says that no doctor should force any Muslim to undergo a treatment that is still in a beginning stage of testing and also if that treatment has shown to fail in so many cases and trials across the world...
Reply

Woodrow
12-31-2008, 09:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
Again i apologize and it is true some of what i was saying was completely from my thoughts and some were a mix between things i feel and what also many scholars do as well..
Apology accepted. There is no problem with that. You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it.


I understand your studies leads you to believe that mental illnesses are in fact biological due to those test but how can you use those test against statistics.. Remember the statistics shows that majority of the mentally ill patients do not test for any abnormality in brain activity..Can you use your studies as facts for the entire population of mental illness?? you can not but at least you can have strong opinions but not facts.. not even scholars have facts on their opinions thats why they call it differences of opinions... its not 100% prove but 99.9% is good enough in this case of mental illness its more like 20 to 45%..if even that high sadly
No I can not use my studies as proof, but I can show that Most if not all physiological psychologists have come to the same conclusion. In fact that is why we are called physiological Psychologist, is because we find mental disorders to be the result of physical disorders.
Although today many refer to physiological psychology as being Cognitive Neuroscience. But, I am old fashioned and it has been many years since I graduated. It is true we do disagree with the findings of some psychologists especially the Behaviorists and Social Psychologists. I do not know how many Physiological Psychologists there are, but we all have found physical changes in the brain of people diagnosed as having mental disorders. In fact without finding those changes we would not diagnose the person as having a mental disorder.




I think you mean to say that mental disorders could or show strong signs, not that his work proved the theory right because if he proved it then we would not be differing today..


Keyword SUSPECTED not known because if it was proved to be a fact or known then we again wouldn't be having this discussion most likely.
As you wrote it I agree. But, I also failed to point out that without verifiable physical changes in the neurosystem a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder












No disrespect but you are only one man.. your studies do not prove facts about mental illness when majority of other scientist studies are opposite of your own..
I believe you will find the majority of physiological psychologists to be in agreement with there being a physical basis for Mental disorders and that it is a medical condition






This part is the part that gets to me.. How can one man consider his tiny test that he did with a few trials to be proof?? Your test has to coincide with the majority of the other scientist that test exactly as you do.. this has to be at least over a 90% chance testing rate consented among the whole of the science community.. we are talking about something that is a minority if I'm not mistake it is more like 20& or around that number.. We are not close at all to finding what we are looking for... I do not think w will find it and i think that those test are purely statistical i mean really what are you looking for with those cat scans?? And who makes up these disorders..?? How do you know it is not a big coincidence.?? the members and statistics would make it seem to be more than a coincidence.. the numbers may prove that this field is a downright lie....
The cat scans show active and inactive portions of the brain. Without evidence of inactivity in various areas a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder


You are missing the point...If my tongue hurts and I'm sad that does not make me insane or mentally ill...
No but if you had other factors such as a change in behavior, loss of contact with reality, hallucinations and a CAT scan showing lack of activity in portions of your brain I would request other tests to rule out the liklihood of being mentaly ill and if I could not rule out that probability I would do my best to determine which type of disorder was present and what would be the best treatment to control it.

you don't seem to get it.. Who decides what normal or not... Behavior is not a disease.. this is ludacris...in my opinion..
there is no such thing as normal. There is only a question of if the person feels a need for help or is satisfied with how he/she feels.





Tell me again do ALL depressed people diagnosed with this disorder brains look like that?? If not then why don't you explain exactly HOW MANY people diagnosed with depression brains look like that?? If the number is less than half around 20% or 15 % then tell me how can you even get close enough to say that this is what you based what you call off as a scientific proof or fact??
Anybody diagnosed as being clinicaly depressed, by a physiological psychologist would have those same looking CAT Scans. So my answer is 100% of people that are clinicaly depressed show that very same CAT scan, otherwise the diagnosis is in error.



Again,, mister no offense but if you look at my opinion i will consider you weak.. because i consider that extreme.. you live in the states and you know it is not right to be there but yet you will not leave because you will only accept 3 countries?? It sounds as if you will only accept those 3 places or nothing else and most likely you wont be getting there any time soon due to your circumstances, may allah help, but what do you plan to do in the mean time??? In my opinion i say that you are not trying to better your life or you do not see the harm and simply "living" among non Muslims let alone in a country where the sins are greater.. not to finger point but i totally agree with you.. the difference between me and you is that even though i want what you want, i will not turn down other better lands especially the better lands that are better than the states or lands with lesser evil.. and i will continue to find lands of lesser evil even if they are the poorest of countries until i can finally get close enough and perhaps make it to my destination..
Perhaps it is that you do not know me? Many things are not my choice. I am deaf, nearly blind. Crippled in my right arm and right leg, very limited in motion and somewhat elderly. My days of living on my own are very limited. In fact less than 3 years ago I had to give up my home because I could not care for myself and had to move in with my daughter in Austin, TX. In fact it was in Texas 3 years ago where I reverted to Islam. However, in the past year Allaah(swt) was very merciful. I was given a wonderful wife in May and moved to Minnesota, some of my strength returned and I was able to drive a car again and regain a large degree of physical ability. However, I know my current health is a short term gift. I am making the most of it by giving Da'wah on the Pine Ridge Lakota Sioux reservation and the Cheyenne River Sioux reservation. I do have good rapport with native Americans as my wife is Cheyenne and my previous wife was Cherokee. There are only 6 to 8 Sioux Muslims in South Dakota and I am doing my best to keep them in contact with Islam mostly through literature I get from Makkah and Alexandria Egypt. I also try to help my brothers and sisters at Pine ridge. That is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the USA and most of the people there have no electricity or running water. Right now winter is setting in and for the past few weeks I have been bringing food to the 4 Muslims on Pine Ridge.

I still hope to move to Fez, but so far I do not have the means to and if I do manage to get there, I would have difficulty in paying rent. I am unemployable even if a job there was available. But, I do what I can do here.

Remember this is not just a lifestyle choice, it is our duty to reduce our living conditions and sin as much as possible. Our duty to choose the lesser evil in all cases..
I have been blessed in that aspect. I have very little physical ability to commit any more sins. However, it is necessary I keep trying to improve my Deen and strive to be the best Muslim I can be.

I live several miles from my nearest neighbors, and have little contact with any people except the Sioux Muslims on the reservations. I also have contact with Sioux seekers that wish to learn more about Islam. Although I drive over 1000 miles each week, I have very little contact with people.




Actually i also do not take any medication except the sunnah medications like honey and black seed.. natural medication is a whole lot better and allot healthy than the deadly poisons of the artificially conventional medications prescribed today.. Even if mental illness has some basis off validity to its "science" then it is no doubt not innocent of the over diagnosing and over medicating of society..which has led to mass deaths daily around the world in astonishing numbers...it is an atrocity indeed...
Whic is a good argument to show that more Muslims need to enter into the field of psychology. I no longer practice and even when I was practicing I did little in the realm of treating people, my forte was primarily in research.

knowing how many people have died due to mis diagnosing and allow a person to still diagnose a Muslim knowing that in most cases the diagnosing will be wrong, this alone is enough to call the scholars and rule that this practice is haram in every stage... Humans are not testing animals.. we cant just sit around and let you give us drugs that could and should potentially kill us or destroy us in catastrophe while the doctors "work to magically find a cure experimenting on the patients until they" "get it right.." by that time the patient could be dead and the doctors may never get it right... This is enough to make a ruling that says that no doctor should force any Muslim to undergo a treatment that is still in a beginning stage of testing and also if that treatment has shown to fail in so many cases and trials across the world...
Again a very good reason pious Muslims need to become Psychiatrists and psychologists. There is a strong need for Muslim Doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists in America. As the Muslim population grows, who will treat them if there are no Muslims that can? Most American Reverts will never have the chance to even visit a Muslim land much less move to one. It will be a sad day for American reverts if all of the pious Muslims move to a Muslim land.
Reply

Tariqa
12-31-2008, 10:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Apology accepted. There is no problem with that. You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it.
Allhumdulillah

No I can not use my studies as proof, but I can show that Most if not all physiological psychologists have come to the same conclusion. In fact that is why we are called physiological Psychologist, is because we find mental disorders to be the result of physical disorders.
Although today many refer to physiological psychology as being Cognitive Neuroscience. But, I am old fashioned and it has been many years since I graduated. It is true we do disagree with the findings of some psychologists especially the Behaviorists and Social Psychologists. I do not know how many Physiological Psychologists there are, but we all have found physical changes in the brain of people diagnosed as having mental disorders. In fact without finding those changes we would not diagnose the person as having a mental disorder.

I hate to combat with you again but i find this last statement to be completely wrong.. I know you have heard of so many cases of misdiagnosing where people were diagnosed with a mental illness and there was no indication of any biological abnormality.. The only thing the doctors would judge in those cases and cases alike were and are the behavioral factors.. You may not know but the deaths from misdiagnosing is what triggered many to consider this profession of the top 5 threats to mankind's existence.. This is one of the only professions besides law enforcement where a person can be trailed behind his will, even without any proof.. Now i don't know your race but if you are a minority living in the inner cities you would know how true this is, you should also know how frequent many minorities were targeted by officers for no apparent reason under racial profiling and sentenced to wild life sentences and such for things they have never thought to even commit... This holds the same weight especially today with the profession of mental illness.. it is legal for a doctor to diagnoses a patient without a single shred of biological data and in many cases no real behavioral data proof alike....it is a very real reality going on in these hospitals and if you knew the number of patients being misdiagnose you would probably be shocked and outraged...what is the excuse for these actions indeed..??



As you wrote it I agree. But, I also failed to point out that without verifiable physical changes in the neurosystem a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder
again this is in my opinion the furthest from the truth.. you may have not witnesses what many have witness of almost torture like methods practiced by these doctors in horrific measure... indeed listen to some eyewitness accounts yourself there is no denying this disturbing fact indeed..medical malpractice is more associated with the modern health cares of today then it is for known to treat people..this professions are almost a waste.. in the time of the prophet there were no doctors.. nowadays people are so lazy...they will be questioned about not being able to take care of themselves properly and when they get sick knowing these drugs kill people more so then they are known for their helpful effects so taking them can be a sort of suicide indeed..











I believe you will find the majority of physiological psychologists to be in agreement with there being a physical basis for Mental disorders and that it is a medical condition

Even if there is majority of the scientist in agreement, this still does not prove that in most cases of testing there are no signs, i mean for all patients in the entire world that was ever diagnosed...most show no signs of anything...


The cat scans show active and inactive portions of the brain. Without evidence of inactivity in various areas a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder
again i highly think you are mistaken and i fully think that they would could and do indeed everyday do this exact practice..just ask one today...
No but if you had other factors such as a change in behavior, loss of contact with reality, hallucinations and a CAT scan showing lack of activity in portions of your brain I would request other tests to rule out the likelihood of being mentally ill and if I could not rule out that probability I would do my best to determine which type of disorder was present and what would be the best treatment to control it.
possibly but me being sad does not always have to mean I'm depressed, me being sad could just be because i have a chemical imbalance in my brain, or I'm sick or I'm going through trails. the sadness can be a result from all these factors but it does not necessarily mean that the sadness itself is a disease and thats the problem with this "science" they do not realize that the chemical imbalance in a persons brain is not the cause of the symptoms, but is a co-cause of the problem..the causes are many factors of life issues, being sad is a symptom of these causes..having a mental illness could be the cause of sadness and depression.. In Islam being sad is something that only Muslims with weak iman do.. strong Muslims do not despair..so there is really no curing a weak heart except Islam and more trust in Allah.. in most cases there is nothing a doctor can prescribe to a patient to make him trust in allah..the medicine may correct the imbalance but this does not mean that the imbalance was involuntarily causing this patient to be sad for no reason... it was the patients chose.. and in cases where its more than a chemical imbalance thats causing the symptoms, for instance a patient who is going through social problems, the medication must likely will not work and the patient will need therapy..You see each case is different but what the doctors claim is nothing but lies and poetry in my opinion.. they did not do no more then give a sad kid an ice cream cone.. yes he forgot about the problem because he is distracted by the new ice cream cone but they did not solve the problem only introduced him to new "problems".

there is no such thing as normal. There is only a question of if the person feels a need for help or is satisfied with how he/she feels.
then your admitting it is a choice not a physical disorder.. if the patient chooses how they are deemed ill then it is not the doctors that changes the disorder but the patients... they are the ones that choose whether they are sick or not and the and the doctors cant really prove that anything they do is certified to work...they must be like gamblers.. just rolling the dice hoping each time they strike happiness..




Anybody diagnosed as being clinically depressed, by a physiological psychologist would have those same looking CAT Scans. So my answer is 100% of people that are clinically depressed show that very same CAT scan, otherwise the diagnosis is in error.
again i think this is anything closest to the truth...this can easily be proving by talking to patients and doctors themselves and simply asking them is it allowed to diagnose a patient with mental illness even though he shows no signs of evidence of a chemical imbalance on the charts.. i guarantee you he says yes because i have already asked.. i know for sure the answer was yes,,not only from that specific doctor but all doctors know it is allowed by the APA to diagnose a patient just by one screening of the patient done in about 5 mins between the patient and the doctor and no traditional methods that a doctor usually uses like a stethoscope and microscope for example...

Perhaps it is that you do not know me? Many things are not my choice. I am deaf, nearly blind. Crippled in my right arm and right leg, very limited in motion and somewhat elderly. My days of living on my own are very limited. In fact less than 3 years ago I had to give up my home because I could not care for myself and had to move in with my daughter in Austin, TX. In fact it was in Texas 3 years ago where I reverted to Islam. However, in the past year Allah(swt) was very merciful. I was given a wonderful wife in May and moved to Minnesota, some of my strength returned and I was able to drive a car again and regain a large degree of physical ability. However, I know my current health is a short term gift. I am making the most of it by giving Da'wah on the Pine Ridge Lakota Sioux reservation and the Cheyenne River Sioux reservation. I do have good rapport with native Americans as my wife is Cheyenne and my previous wife was Cherokee. There are only 6 to 8 Sioux Muslims in South Dakota and I am doing my best to keep them in contact with Islam mostly through literature I get from Makkah and Alexandria Egypt. I also try to help my brothers and sisters at Pine ridge. That is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the USA and most of the people there have no electricity or running water. Right now winter is setting in and for the past few weeks I have been bringing food to the 4 Muslims on Pine Ridge.

I still hope to move to Fez, but so far I do not have the means to and if I do manage to get there, I would have difficulty in paying rent. I am unemployable even if a job there was available. But, I do what I can do here.
I understand.. your excuse is allot stronger than my own and many so called young Muslims that really have the means and no excuse..

I pray Allah pardons you and forgives you for whatever you fall short on...however i do think that there is a cure for everyone..as the hadith indicates black seed is a cure for every disease except old age or death..well i think if your not dead yet that there is still hope for you.. i can only give you the advice and you can choose to act upon or not.. whether you are capable of doing so truly will be between you and Allah...

i again am only suggesting to find a land that will be of a lesser evil.. if your daughter will not move with you and support you then again Allah will judge everyones unique situation and allah knows best.. do what you know you can do and do not leave any rock or opportunity unturned because there are better ways then what we all are living in...and also do not rule anything out because of difficulty, even the oldest people some of them still choose to choose the path of difficulty and fight even though they were not required to..







Which is a good argument to show that more Muslims need to enter into the field of psychology. I no longer practice and even when I was practicing I did little in the realm of treating people, my forte was primarily in research.

Yes us Muslims need to be our own doctors thats what i proposed remember the sunnah is not to see doctors... if Muslims would start taking care of their own selves instead of relying on drugs then we can save ourselves from the injustice of the disbelievers..


Again a very good reason pious Muslims need to become Psychiatrists and psychologists. There is a strong need for Muslim Doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists in America. As the Muslim population grows, who will treat them if there are no Muslims that can? Most American Reverts will never have the chance to even visit a Muslim land much less move to one. It will be a sad day for American reverts if all of the pious Muslims move to a Muslim land.
Well we are not only proposing that the pious move but all American reverts as well... if all Muslims left that would be best...
Honestly i do not know what to tell you... i do not think that Muslims coming to non Muslim lands and also living in sin is the way out... i think we should be trying to get our Muslims out of every non Muslim land... this itself is its own discussion and we should talk about this more in detail but we can judge inshallah what the best thing is to do..

As far as medicine again i do not recommend any Muslim to go to a doctor whether Muslim or non Muslim but seek allah.... honey is a cure. can a Muslim stay home and use home remedies??? it is the sunnah .. if the messanger of Allah did it then we surely can and should do it as well..may Allah bestow upon all of the Muslims strength to follow the sunnah to the closest letter inshallah..
Reply

Tariqa
12-31-2008, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Apology accepted. There is no problem with that. You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it.
Allhumdulillah


No I can not use my studies as proof, but I can show that Most if not all physiological psychologists have come to the same conclusion. In fact that is why we are called physiological Psychologist, is because we find mental disorders to be the result of physical disorders.
Although today many refer to physiological psychology as being Cognitive Neuroscience. But, I am old fashioned and it has been many years since I graduated. It is true we do disagree with the findings of some psychologists especially the Behaviorists and Social Psychologists. I do not know how many Physiological Psychologists there are, but we all have found physical changes in the brain of people diagnosed as having mental disorders. In fact without finding those changes we would not diagnose the person as having a mental disorder.
I hate to combat with you again but i find this last statement to be completely wrong.. I know you have heard of so many cases of misdiagnosing where people were diagnosed with a mental illness and there was no indication of any biological abnormality.. The only thing the doctors would judge in those cases and cases alike were and are the behavioral factors.. You may not know but the deaths from misdiagnosing is what triggered many to consider this profession of the top 5 threats to mankind's existence.. This is one of the only professions besides law enforcement where a person can be trailed behind his will, even without any proof.. Now i don't know your race but if you are a minority living in the inner cities you would know how true this is, you should also know how frequent many minorities were targeted by officers for no apparent reason under racial profiling and sentenced to wild life sentences and such for things they have never thought to even commit... This holds the same weight especially today with the profession of mental illness.. it is legal for a doctor to diagnoses a patient without a single shred of biological data and in many cases no real behavioral data proof alike....it is a very real reality going on in these hospitals and if you knew the number of patients being misdiagnose you would probably be shocked and outraged...what is the excuse for these actions indeed..??



As you wrote it I agree. But, I also failed to point out that without verifiable physical changes in the neurosystem a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder
again this is in my opinion the furthest from the truth.. you may have not witnesses what many have witness of almost torture like methods practiced by these doctors in horrific measure... indeed listen to some eyewitness accounts yourself there is no denying this disturbing fact indeed..medical malpractice is more associated with the modern health cares of today then it is for known to treat people..this professions are almost a waste.. in the time of the prophet there were no doctors.. nowadays people are so lazy...they will be questioned about not being able to take care of themselves properly and when they get sick knowing these drugs kill people more so then they are known for their helpful effects so taking them can be a sort of suicide indeed..












I believe you will find the majority of physiological psychologists to be in agreement with there being a physical basis for Mental disorders and that it is a medical condition
Even if there is majority of the scientist in agreement, this still does not prove that in most cases of testing there are no signs, i mean for all patients in the entire world that was ever diagnosed...most show no signs of anything...



The cat scans show active and inactive portions of the brain. Without evidence of inactivity in various areas a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder
again i highly think you are mistaken and i fully think that they would could and do indeed everyday do this exact practice..just ask one today...

No but if you had other factors such as a change in behavior, loss of contact with reality, hallucinations and a CAT scan showing lack of activity in portions of your brain I would request other tests to rule out the likelihood of being mentally ill and if I could not rule out that probability I would do my best to determine which type of disorder was present and what would be the best treatment to control it.
possibly but me being sad does not always have to mean I'm depressed, me being sad could just be because i have a chemical imbalance in my brain, or I'm sick or I'm going through trails. the sadness can be a result from all these factors but it does not necessarily mean that the sadness itself is a disease and thats the problem with this "science" they do not realize that the chemical imbalance in a persons brain is not the cause of the symptoms, but is a co-cause of the problem..the causes are many factors of life issues, being sad is a symptom of these causes..having a mental illness could be the cause of sadness and depression.. In Islam being sad is something that only Muslims with weak iman do.. strong Muslims do not despair..so there is really no curing a weak heart except Islam and more trust in Allah.. in most cases there is nothing a doctor can prescribe to a patient to make him trust in allah..the medicine may correct the imbalance but this does not mean that the imbalance was involuntarily causing this patient to be sad for no reason... it was the patients chose.. and in cases where its more than a chemical imbalance thats causing the symptoms, for instance a patient who is going through social problems, the medication must likely will not work and the patient will need therapy..You see each case is different but what the doctors claim is nothing but lies and poetry in my opinion.. they did not do no more then give a sad kid an ice cream cone.. yes he forgot about the problem because he is distracted by the new ice cream cone but they did not solve the problem only introduced him to new "problems".


there is no such thing as normal. There is only a question of if the person feels a need for help or is satisfied with how he/she feels.
then your admitting it is a choice not a physical disorder.. if the patient chooses how they are deemed ill then it is not the doctors that changes the disorder but the patients... they are the ones that choose whether they are sick or not and the and the doctors cant really prove that anything they do is certified to work...they must be like gamblers.. just rolling the dice hoping each time they strike happiness..





:
Anybody diagnosed as being clinically depressed, by a physiological psychologist would have those same looking CAT Scans. So my answer is 100% of people that are clinically depressed show that very same CAT scan, otherwise the diagnosis is in error.
again i think this is anything closest to the truth...this can easily be proving by talking to patients and doctors themselves and simply asking them is it allowed to diagnose a patient with mental illness even though he shows no signs of evidence of a chemical imbalance on the charts.. i guarantee you he says yes because i have already asked.. i know for sure the answer was yes,,not only from that specific doctor but all doctors know it is allowed by the APA to diagnose a patient just by one screening of the patient done in about 5 mins between the patient and the doctor and no traditional methods that a doctor usually uses like a stethoscope and microscope for example...



Perhaps it is that you do not know me? Many things are not my choice. I am deaf, nearly blind. Crippled in my right arm and right leg, very limited in motion and somewhat elderly. My days of living on my own are very limited. In fact less than 3 years ago I had to give up my home because I could not care for myself and had to move in with my daughter in Austin, TX. In fact it was in Texas 3 years ago where I reverted to Islam. However, in the past year Allah(swt) was very merciful. I was given a wonderful wife in May and moved to Minnesota, some of my strength returned and I was able to drive a car again and regain a large degree of physical ability. However, I know my current health is a short term gift. I am making the most of it by giving Da'wah on the Pine Ridge Lakota Sioux reservation and the Cheyenne River Sioux reservation. I do have good rapport with native Americans as my wife is Cheyenne and my previous wife was Cherokee. There are only 6 to 8 Sioux Muslims in South Dakota and I am doing my best to keep them in contact with Islam mostly through literature I get from Makkah and Alexandria Egypt. I also try to help my brothers and sisters at Pine ridge. That is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the USA and most of the people there have no electricity or running water. Right now winter is setting in and for the past few weeks I have been bringing food to the 4 Muslims on Pine Ridge.

I still hope to move to Fez, but so far I do not have the means to and if I do manage to get there, I would have difficulty in paying rent. I am unemployable even if a job there was available. But, I do what I can do here.


I understand.. your excuse is allot stronger than my own and many so called young Muslims that really have the means and no excuse..

I pray Allah pardons you and forgives you for whatever you fall short on...however i do think that there is a cure for everyone..as the hadith indicates black seed is a cure for every disease except old age or death..well i think if your not dead yet that there is still hope for you.. i can only give you the advice and you can choose to act upon or not.. whether you are capable of doing so truly will be between you and Allah...

i again am only suggesting to find a land that will be of a lesser evil.. if your daughter will not move with you and support you then again Allah will judge everyones unique situation and allah knows best.. do what you know you can do and do not leave any rock or opportunity unturned because there are better ways then what we all are living in...and also do not rule anything out because of difficulty, even the oldest people some of them still choose to choose the path of difficulty and fight even though they were not required to..







Which is a good argument to show that more Muslims need to enter into the field of psychology. I no longer practice and even when I was practicing I did little in the realm of treating people, my forte was primarily in research.
Yes us Muslims need to be our own doctors thats what i proposed remember the sunnah is not to see doctors... if Muslims would start taking care of their own selves instead of relying on drugs then we can save ourselves from the injustice of the disbelievers..


Again a very good reason pious Muslims need to become Psychiatrists and psychologists. There is a strong need for Muslim Doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists in America. As the Muslim population grows, who will treat them if there are no Muslims that can? Most American Reverts will never have the chance to even visit a Muslim land much less move to one. It will be a sad day for American reverts if all of the pious Muslims move to a Muslim land.
Well we are not only proposing that the pious move but all American reverts as well... if all Muslims left that would be best...
Honestly i do not know what to tell you... i do not think that Muslims coming to non Muslim lands and also living in sin is the way out... i think we should be trying to get our Muslims out of every non Muslim land... this itself is its own discussion and we should talk about this more in detail but we can judge inshallah what the best thing is to do..

As far as medicine again i do not recommend any Muslim to go to a doctor whether Muslim or non Muslim but seek allah.... honey is a cure. can a Muslim stay home and use home remedies??? it is the sunnah .. if the messanger of Allah did it then we surely can and should do it as well..may Allah bestow upon all of the Muslims strength to follow the sunnah to the closest letter inshallah..
Reply

aamirsaab
12-31-2008, 01:08 PM
:sl:
Hey Tariq. Erm, you still have this really bad conception of psychology and psycho-analysis. It's not like you sit down for 5 minutes and you get diagnosed. The process of pscyhoanalysis is lenghty and a lot of things are factored.

For example; someone who has just been crying due to a relative passing away will not be diagnosed as mentally depressed (yes they are currently in a state of depression but it doesn't mean they need to take medication!)

However, someone who has been non-stop crying, whailing and screaming all day for a week will probably be in need of some medication or at least some psychological help (to find out what exactly is going on!). But, psycho analysis doesn't always lead to you needing medication or being diagnosed as mentally ill.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that psychology actually helps explain certain Islamic teachings. For instance: the Id, Ego and SuperEgo offer a very similar explanation to how shaytan works in Islam. Also, there are numerous psychological reasons for prayer, tasbih, the seperation of males and females etc etc.

So basically, psychology doesn't contradict Islam's teachings - in fact, it helps offer explanations for them which therefore make it easier to understand and to thus carry out.

Another point I should make is that if you are to follow the Islamic teachings as taught to us from hadith and Quran, you're psychological make up is actually quite good - i.e you won't suffer depression (or it's less likely) etc. I think you actually mentioned this in one of your posts that if we followed Islam properly then we wouldn't need the assistance of psychoanalysis - and most people would agree with that. But that actually means that psychology is actually working WITH Islam, not against it.

Yes misdiagnosis happens, and yes people can die as a result. But, is it any different in any other practice? The Law system isn't perfect and it makes mistakes - wrong people go to jail or get the death sentence all the time. The medical system isn't perfect and it makes mistakes - some people die as a result. In Business, you can do everything right but sometimes you don't pay your creditors and they go bankrupt as a result. But, none of those professions are haram in and of themselves - in fact, in Islam we have the perfect versions of each and every one of them so clearly they aren't at their core haram.

In the end psychology carries more good than bad. If you (or anyone) really want to know more about this subject (which I recommend you should because it is great!) then there are atleast 3 members on this forum (Skye, Woodrow, me) that have a lot of info to give. I myself studied it at college for A - levels so I know 2 years worth, but I think woodrow actually studied it further so ask him first.
Reply

Woodrow
12-31-2008, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
Allhumdulillah




I hate to combat with you again but i find this last statement to be completely wrong.. I know you have heard of so many cases of misdiagnosing where people were diagnosed with a mental illness and there was no indication of any biological abnormality.. The only thing the doctors would judge in those cases and cases alike were and are the behavioral factors.. You may not know but the deaths from misdiagnosing is what triggered many to consider this profession of the top 5 threats to mankind's existence.. This is one of the only professions besides law enforcement where a person can be trailed behind his will, even without any proof.. Now i don't know your race but if you are a minority living in the inner cities you would know how true this is, you should also know how frequent many minorities were targeted by officers for no apparent reason under racial profiling and sentenced to wild life sentences and such for things they have never thought to even commit... This holds the same weight especially today with the profession of mental illness.. it is legal for a doctor to diagnoses a patient without a single shred of biological data and in many cases no real behavioral data proof alike....it is a very real reality going on in these hospitals and if you knew the number of patients being misdiagnose you would probably be shocked and outraged...what is the excuse for these actions indeed..??
There is no combat in honest disagreement. Disagreement is healthy and constructive if it is understood that all parties agree to disagree with respect.

Yes, Psychiatry and psychology can be missused and misdiagnosis can be made, either through error or deliberate.

I am very familiar with racial profiling. Although I inherited very few oriental traits most of my family has strong oriental features. It was difficult growing up in America during WW2 and being from an oriental family. All of us were viewed as being Japanese.

All things when misused will have evil effects. This applies to every area of Human actions and thought.

Yes, the police do misuse psychiatric diagnosis as a means of illegal tracking. However, the diagnosis need not be made by any qualified professional. In any State the county coronor can make the decision and for a short term commitment any person can contact the local coronor or police chief with the fear that somebody is insane and is a danger. On the basis of that alone a persone can be held up to 24 hours for observation. In some states if that does not work. An accusation of public intoxication by a police officer is sufficient grounds to have a person held for 4 hours, with know verification that the person has been partaking any intoxicants. It is not uncommon for diabetics to die in jail because they were accused of being intoxicated and in reality were having an insulin reaction. Misuse of legal proceedure is not neccessarily a reason to judge a field of medicine when it may be a fault of the legal system





again this is in my opinion the furthest from the truth.. you may have not witnesses what many have witness of almost torture like methods practiced by these doctors in horrific measure... indeed listen to some eyewitness accounts yourself there is no denying this disturbing fact indeed..medical malpractice is more associated with the modern health cares of today then it is for known to treat people..this professions are almost a waste.. in the time of the prophet there were no doctors.. nowadays people are so lazy...they will be questioned about not being able to take care of themselves properly and when they get sick knowing these drugs kill people more so then they are known for their helpful effects so taking them can be a sort of suicide indeed..
I was a witness against the State of Louisiana in the infamous Gary W. class action suit in which over 1000 people were wrongly incarcerated in Mental institutions simply because they were "different". But, again this is a misuse of the legal system under the guise of medicine. We did win the case against Louisiana and that group of people were freed and given life time compensation.














Even if there is majority of the scientist in agreement, this still does not prove that in most cases of testing there are no signs, i mean for all patients in the entire world that was ever diagnosed...most show no signs of anything...
If there are no signs there is no diagnosis, that is an accusation and not professional medicine. yes, it is done, but that is a misuse of Medicine and violation of all medical codes.





again i highly think you are mistaken and i fully think that they would could and do indeed everyday do this exact practice..just ask one today...
Yes, it is done. But it is not valid psychological or psychiatric practice.


possibly but me being sad does not always have to mean I'm depressed, me being sad could just be because i have a chemical imbalance in my brain, or I'm sick or I'm going through trails. the sadness can be a result from all these factors but it does not necessarily mean that the sadness itself is a disease and thats the problem with this "science" they do not realize that the chemical imbalance in a persons brain is not the cause of the symptoms, but is a co-cause of the problem..the causes are many factors of life issues, being sad is a symptom of these causes..having a mental illness could be the cause of sadness and depression.. In Islam being sad is something that only Muslims with weak iman do.. strong Muslims do not despair..so there is really no curing a weak heart except Islam and more trust in Allah.. in most cases there is nothing a doctor can prescribe to a patient to make him trust in allah..the medicine may correct the imbalance but this does not mean that the imbalance was involuntarily causing this patient to be sad for no reason... it was the patients chose.. and in cases where its more than a chemical imbalance thats causing the symptoms, for instance a patient who is going through social problems, the medication must likely will not work and the patient will need therapy..You see each case is different but what the doctors claim is nothing but lies and poetry in my opinion.. they did not do no more then give a sad kid an ice cream cone.. yes he forgot about the problem because he is distracted by the new ice cream cone but they did not solve the problem only introduced him to new "problems".
The DSM does give very specific criteria as to what is needed to make a valid diagnosis. Situational depression does not meet the criteria for clinical depression. Yes, medicine in all fields can be mis used, but that does not make the field wrong. Psychiatry and psychology did not become recognized sciences or fields of medicine until the late 1800s and early 1900s. Prior to that those with any "abnormal" (abnormal being what the local populace called abnormal) behavior were incarcerated tortured or killed. since the advent of psychiatry as a medical field the number of Mad house, insane asylums etc dropped. the most notorious ones such as Bedlam were shut down.



then your admitting it is a choice not a physical disorder.. if the patient chooses how they are deemed ill then it is not the doctors that changes the disorder but the patients... they are the ones that choose whether they are sick or not and the and the doctors cant really prove that anything they do is certified to work...they must be like gamblers.. just rolling the dice hoping each time they strike happiness..
A erson always has the right to accept treatment or refuse treatment. That does not have any relationship to the need for treatment.





:


again i think this is anything closest to the truth...this can easily be proving by talking to patients and doctors themselves and simply asking them is it allowed to diagnose a patient with mental illness even though he shows no signs of evidence of a chemical imbalance on the charts.. i guarantee you he says yes because i have already asked.. i know for sure the answer was yes,,not only from that specific doctor but all doctors know it is allowed by the APA to diagnose a patient just by one screening of the patient done in about 5 mins between the patient and the doctor and no traditional methods that a doctor usually uses like a stethoscope and microscope for example...
That is only part of the diagnosis. The DSM requires full physical testing along with personal interview.







I understand.. your excuse is allot stronger than my own and many so called young Muslims that really have the means and no excuse..

I pray Allah pardons you and forgives you for whatever you fall short on...however i do think that there is a cure for everyone..as the hadith indicates black seed is a cure for every disease except old age or death..well i think if your not dead yet that there is still hope for you.. i can only give you the advice and you can choose to act upon or not.. whether you are capable of doing so truly will be between you and Allah...
Jazakallahu Khayran

i again am only suggesting to find a land that will be of a lesser evil.. if your daughter will not move with you and support you then again Allah will judge everyones unique situation and allah knows best.. do what you know you can do and do not leave any rock or opportunity unturned because there are better ways then what we all are living in...and also do not rule anything out because of difficulty, even the oldest people some of them still choose to choose the path of difficulty and fight even though they were not required to..
My youngest daughter is over 40 years old and has the responsibility of her husband, children and her own grandchildren it is out of the question to expect her to move. My wife has no family in the USA and all of her family are non-Muslim Her children chose military life.









Yes us Muslims need to be our own doctors thats what i proposed remember the sunnah is not to see doctors... if Muslims would start taking care of their own selves instead of relying on drugs then we can save ourselves from the injustice of the disbelievers..
Yes, Muslims need to take care of themselves. right now I know of only one Muslim Doctor in the Dakotas. Although when I was in Texas it seemed most of the Doctors were Muslim




Well we are not only proposing that the pious move but all American reverts as well... if all Muslims left that would be best...
Honestly i do not know what to tell you... i do not think that Muslims coming to non Muslim lands and also living in sin is the way out... i think we should be trying to get our Muslims out of every non Muslim land... this itself is its own discussion and we should talk about this more in detail but we can judge inshallah what the best thing is to do..
That is another topic, let us finish one topic at a time

As far as medicine again i do not recommend any Muslim to go to a doctor whether Muslim or non Muslim but seek allah.... honey is a cure. can a Muslim stay home and use home remedies??? it is the sunnah .. if the messanger of Allah did it then we surely can and should do it as well..may Allah bestow upon all of the Muslims strength to follow the sunnah to the closest letter inshallah..
Perhaps, Doctors are granted their knowledge from Allaah(swt) and they may be the tool provided by Allaah(swt) Just as honey while made by bees is medicine from Allaah(swt). Perhaps some people are guided by Allaah(swt) to become Muslim Doctors to assist us in times of illness. Just a thought and personal opinion.
Reply

Tariqa
12-31-2008, 11:05 PM
Yes, Psychiatry and psychology can be missused and misdiagnosis can be made, either through error or deliberate.
I am very familiar with racial profiling. Although I inherited very few oriental traits most of my family has strong oriental features. It was difficult growing up in America during WW2 and being from an oriental family. All of us were viewed as being Japanese.
All things when misused will have evil effects. This applies to every area of Human actions and thought.
We are talking almost everyday they misuse this profession and in mass numbers..

Yes, the police do misuse psychiatric diagnosis as a means of illegal tracking. However, the diagnosis need not be made by any qualified professional. In any State the county coronor can make the decision and for a short term commitment any person can contact the local coronor or police chief with the fear that somebody is insane and is a danger. On the basis of that alone a persone can be held up to 24 hours for observation. In some states if that does not work. An accusation of public intoxication by a police officer is sufficient grounds to have a person held for 4 hours, with know verification that the person has been partaking any intoxicants. It is not uncommon for diabetics to die in jail because they were accused of being intoxicated and in reality were having an insulin reaction. Misuse of legal proceedure is not neccessarily a reason to judge a field of medicine when it may be a fault of the legal system
Again thios happens allot more than "it happens sometimes" we are talking about a daily misuse of medicine...




If there are no signs there is no diagnosis, that is an accusation and not professional medicine. yes, it is done, but that is a misuse of Medicine and violation of all medical codes.
You admit that it is done but do you admit how often it is done??? Every single day and in mass numbers.. Check the statisitcs im sure you would be shocked.

Yes, it is done. But it is not valid psychological or psychiatric practice.
I guess then majority of todays diagonoses arent even ethical and valid..






A erson always has the right to accept treatment or refuse treatment. That does not have any relationship to the need for treatment.
Not in the case of involunetary committment they do not... Quite distrubing..to accuse one of false accusations.. Isnt in islam you need like 2 witnesses.. If this man dies they could go to hell for slander and false accusations.. subhannallah..





My youngest daughter is over 40 years old and has the responsibility of her husband, children and her own grandchildren it is out of the question to expect her to move. My wife has no family in the USA and all of her family are non-Muslim Her children chose military life.
Thats why i said if... if that is the case then may allah help you in your battles..inshaallah






Perhaps, Doctors are granted their knowledge from Allaah(swt) and they may be the tool provided by Allaah(swt) Just as honey while made by bees is medicine from Allaah(swt). Perhaps some people are guided by Allaah(swt) to become Muslim Doctors to assist us in times of illness. Just a thought and personal opinion.
[/QUOTE]

If the doctors are killing so many pateints today then i think a scholar should make a fatwa that states that all muslims must take care of themselves and it would be a sin to fall in the traps of the unhealthy states we are falling in today.. Just look at obesity.. surely allah hates the wasters of our ummah and the ones that eat foods that are so unhealthy....this clearly is a case of suicide only it is not with drugs any more its with doctors hospital and groceries..well yeah it still is with drugs..but legal ones may allah save us all from this fitnah...
Reply

جوري
12-31-2008, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa

We are talking almost everyday they misuse this profession and in mass numbers..
How is Medicine misused everyday? Do you want to give me numbers?
Let's divide it into helped vs. unhelped..

No profession is immune from human error, happens in engineering, in computing, in economics, in theology even.. so how about we look at the numbers.. if those unhelped outnumber those helped, perhaps we can have a lead to go on?

Again thios happens allot more than "it happens sometimes" we are talking about a daily misuse of medicine...
Pls elucidate your point with some statistics?




You admit that it is done but do you admit how often it is done??? Every single day and in mass numbers.. Check the statisitcs im sure you would be shocked.
Seems your job to bring us those statistics not reference us to elusive numbers?


I guess then majority of todays diagonoses arent even ethical and valid..

How so?





Not in the case of involunetary committment they do not... Quite distrubing..to accuse one of false accusations.. Isnt in islam you need like 2 witnesses.. If this man dies they could go to hell for slander and false accusations.. subhannallah..
In medicine even insane people have autonomy I reference you to this book
http://www.amazon.com/Kaplan-Medical...0765119&sr=8-5

the only time a physician is allowed to hold a patient is if he is clear threat to himself or others, and s/he can't hold a patient longer than 72 hrs, from then on, only a court of law decides.. which really should let you to shift the blame to the court system not the clinical judgment of a physician



If the doctors are killing so many pateints today then i think a scholar should make a fatwa that states that all muslims must take care of themselves and it would be a sin to fall in the traps of the unhealthy states we are falling in today.. Just look at obesity.. surely allah hates the wasters of our ummah and the ones that eat foods that are so unhealthy....this clearly is a case of suicide only it is not with drugs any more its with doctors hospital and groceries..well yeah it still is with drugs..but legal ones may allah save us all from this fitnah...
They didn't use herbs and surgery during the time of the prophet? in Ghazwit Uhud, there wasn't basic surgery practiced on the battle field?

interesting

:w:
Reply

Tariqa
12-31-2008, 11:37 PM
No profession is immune from human error, happens in engineering, in computing, in economics, in theology even.. so how about we look at the numbers.. if those unhelped outnumber those helped, perhaps we can have a lead to go on?
Pls elucidate your point with some statistics?

I can give you many stats.. Fo one the number of deaths of all the mental misdiagnosed of mental illness over the years is higher than all soldiers killed in all the us wars combined..





How so?
because the stats prove it...i will give you more statistics to prove that this profession is worst than all of the us wars combined..




In medicine even insane people have autonomy I reference you to this book
http://www.amazon.com/Kaplan-Medical...0765119&sr=8-5

the only time a physician is allowed to hold a patient is if he is clear threat to himself or others, and s/he can't hold a patient longer than 72 hrs, from then on, only a court of law decides.. which really should let you to shift the blame to the court system not the clinical judgment of a physician
Even so pateints can be committed to hospitals for weeks with not a shred of evidecne this happens daily..

They didn't use herbs and surgery during the time of the prophet? in Ghazwit Uhud, there wasn't basic surgery practiced on the battle field?
Yes they used natural medications not artifically conventional methods of medication.. that is why more people are dying today then before ..everything seems to be so unreal..nothing they use today is natural harldy ever..
Reply

جوري
12-31-2008, 11:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
I can give you many stats.. Fo one the number of deaths of all the mental misdiagnosed of mental illness over the years is higher than all soldiers killed in all the us wars combined..
Ok, go ahead and we'll analyze them together!






because the stats prove it...i will give you more statistics to prove that this profession is worst than all of the us wars combined..
Ok, I'll be waiting for your stats!




Even so pateints can be committed to hospitals for weeks with not a shred of evidecne this happens daily..
and I just told you that even deranged patients have autonomy, given you a book if you'll bother read it about the cases that have shaped modern ethics. No ONE can be committed against their will unless they are a clear threat to themselves or others..
if you want you can google more about the The Case of Tatiana Tarasoff vs California Board of Regents

Yes they used natural medications not artifically conventional methods of medication.. that is why more people are dying today then before ..everything seems to be so unreal..nothing they use today is natural harldy ever..
in fact many medications used today are naturally derived.. It is an expansive topic, I can get into it if you'd like, but I have already discussed how everything from human urine, to fish testicles is used in modern medicine...
for such diseases as HIV, synthetic isomers are derived as to interlock with enzymes and arrest them from replication. Such advances have allowed people who would have otherwise died in a few months to living for twenty years or more..

Indeed Allah swt has given us knowledge and intelligence to combat some of the things that plague us in this world, and that is commendable.
I'll have to wager that you are rather under-educated when it comes to modern medicine, and how it relates to Islam..
I'd hope for your sake that you'd re-consider your position before you drive many around you who could potentially be in serious need of medical attention to the brink because of some beliefs that you hold that are otherwise unfounded, either medically or theologically!


and Allah swt knows best

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
Reply

Tariqa
01-01-2009, 02:23 AM
Ok, I'll be waiting for your stats!


im still gathering


and I just told you that even deranged patients have autonomy, given you a book if you'll bother read it about the cases that have shaped modern ethics. No ONE can be committed against their will unless they are a clear threat to themselves or others..
if you want you can google more about the The Case of Tatiana Tarasoff vs California Board of Regents
i think you are wrong... who decides what a threat or not?? there are many people that are not threating.. they only may be deemed violent but many times they wouldnt hurt a fly so who judges that??

in fact many medications used today are naturally derived.. It is an expansive topic, I can get into it if you'd like, but I have already discussed how everything from human urine, to fish testicles is used in modern medicine...
for such diseases as HIV, synthetic isomers are derived as to interlock with enzymes and arrest them from replication. Such advances have allowed people who would have otherwise died in a few months to living for twenty years or more..
I think you are just not getting it.. This has nothing to do with medicines from natural sources.. just because they are from natural soucres does not mean anything.. it is the proccessing of natural sources that is the bad part and deadly part proven by doctors.. every time you take a natural substance and you alter it, it becomes processed.. the processing if products is lead our nations to desruction... if you can not give the medicin in its entire natural form then maybe its best not to give it all.. if you have to add chemicals to a natural product this is clearly a way to destroy the actual helpful enzymes in a product as well as taking chcmicals away or even heating the prodcut up.. any alteration is wrong in the case of medication... we should eat and use things in the most pure most natural.. it is the sunnah is it not..misqak?? water food.. ? is it not the sunnah to leave them in their natural ways???


and Allah swt knows best
allah hu alim
Reply

جوري
01-01-2009, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
im still gathering
I was under the impression given the conviction in your writing that such stats would already be in your possession? nonetheless we'll be waiting insha'Allah for the moment you back up your claims with some evidence from a reputed source!


i think you are wrong... who decides what a threat or not?? there are many people that are not threating.. they only may be deemed violent but many times they wouldnt hurt a fly so who judges that??
who decides? licensed physicians who go through 8 yrs of school and anywhere from 3-7 years of residency and grueling exams -- further if you have read anything I wrote at all and mulled over it, you'd know that no one is held against their will unless they threaten harm to themselves or others! and confinement in the hospital is no more than 72 hrs. It costs $800 for a hospital bed alone at night let alone medication and services.. No one wants to hold anyone in a hospital unless they themselves will be liable by a court of law for letting a potential criminal go!


I think you are just not getting it.. This has nothing to do with medicines from natural sources.. just because they are from natural soucres does not mean anything.. it is the proccessing of natural sources that is the bad part and deadly part proven by doctors.. every time you take a natural substance and you alter it, it becomes processed.. the processing if products is lead our nations to desruction... if you can not give the medicin in its entire natural form then maybe its best not to give it all.. if you have to add chemicals to a natural product this is clearly a way to destroy the actual helpful enzymes in a product as well as taking chcmicals away or even heating the prodcut up.. any alteration is wrong in the case of medication... we should eat and use things in the most pure most natural.. it is the sunnah is it not..misqak?? water food.. ? is it not the sunnah to leave them in their natural ways???

Medications have to go through three or possible four phases of trials before they are put out for human use.. in phase IV any potential undesired side effects can mark the death of a Medication irregardless of time, money, research and FDA approval-- it is a 'grueling' process-- you can always purchase 'natural herbs' and risk a certain death with drugs unregulated by the FDA .. you really should read about that more? some of the diseases relevant to our time weren't relevant during the time of the prophet and vice versa... you want to treat such disease as acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL) with black seed and honey, be my guest, simply don't impose your views on the whole.. One thing I know for a fact is that Allah swt will ask us, what we have done with our health on the day of recompense.. if there is available treatment with 95% chance of cure rate and you chose to forgo it for delusions of 'natural cures' then just simply be responsible for your own soul.. I'd be very careful what information I spill out there with such authority.. You have no formal training in Islamic jurisprudence or in Medicine.. I don't know what you have to gain by disseminating this sort of nonsense?!

:w:



allah hu alim[/QUOTE]
Reply

Tariqa
01-01-2009, 03:17 AM
I was under the impression given the conviction in your writing that such stats would already be in your possession? nonetheless we'll be waiting insha'Allah for the moment you back up your claims with some evidence from a reputed source!
Yes im i know but i dont want to say it without being 100% sure... but that one statisic i gavce you was clear



who decides? licensed physicians who go through 8 yrs of school and anywhere from 3-7 years of residency and grueling exams -- further if you have read anything I wrote at all and mulled over it, you'd know that no one is held against their will unless they threaten harm to themselves or others! and confinement in the hospital is no more than 72 hrs. It costs $800 for a hospital bed alone at night let alone medication and services.. No one wants to hold anyone in a hospital unless they themselves will be liable by a court of law for letting a potential criminal go!
what does 8 years of school make anyone an expert.. so tell me the black magic schools are oficaial..?? because somone goes to a school for 8 years of non sense that makes him worthy of an opinion??





Medications have to go through three or possible four phases of trials before they are put out for human use.. in phase IV any potential undesired side effects can mark the death of a Medication irregardless of time, money, research and FDA approval-- it is a 'grueling' process-- you can always purchase 'natural herbs' and risk a certain death with drugs unregulated by the FDA .. you really should read about that more? some of the diseases relevant to our time weren't relevant during the time of the prophet and vice versa... you want to treat such disease as acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL) with black seed and honey, be my guest, simply don't impose your views on the whole.. One thing I know for a fact is that Allah swt will ask us, what we have done with our health on the day of recompense.. if there is available treatment with 95% chance of cure rate and you chose to forgo it for delusions of 'natural cures' then just simply be responsible for your own soul.. I'd be very careful what information I spill out there with such authority.. You have no formal training in Islamic jurisprudence or in Medicine.. I don't know what you have to gain by disseminating this sort of nonsense?!
It seems as if you do not beleve in black seed and honey.. may allah forgive you if you trust some western kafir more so then the muslims.. what you dont seem to understand is that these same drugs you seem to trust are root causes and leads to other diseases. for example you ever heard aids is a created disease by the governemet?? the principle lies in this notion that the medication they give to treat hiv is what causes the disease to mutate into aids.. you se it could be the reason we have so many new diseases is because we have been doing som many drugs... maybe to perserve your life you would need to give up this drugged mentality.. people are dying in mass numbers.. 95% is far an exageration i assure you...
Reply

جوري
01-01-2009, 03:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
Yes im i know but i dont want to say it without being 100% sure... but that one statisic i gavce you was clear
All I have so far is your word to go on & so far you are neither consistent nor credible!



what does 8 years of school make anyone an expert.. so tell me the black magic schools are oficaial..?? because somone goes to a school for 8 years of non sense that makes him worthy of an opinion??
I have no idea what that means.. what are your qualifications then? These are the standard set.. Just like in Islam, if you want to become a scholar you need formal schooling, in science if you want to become a scholar you need formal schooling.. seems rudimentary?






It seems as if you do not beleve in black seed and honey.. may allah forgive you if you trust some western kafir more so then the muslims
Where in my post did I state, I don't believe in black seed and honey?

.. what you dont seem to understand is that these same drugs you seem to trust are root causes and leads to other diseases. for example you ever heard aids is a created disease by the governemet?? the principle lies in this notion that the medication they give to treat hiv is what causes the disease to mutate into aids.. you se it could be the reason we have so many new diseases is because we have been doing som many drugs... maybe to perserve your life you would need to give up this drugged mentality.. people are dying in mass numbers.. 95% is far an exageration i assure you..
All medications have side effects, that is the case with any xenobiotic -- Licorice is a natural plant that many middle easterners have as drinks, yet chronic licorice intoxication is a well-recognized cause of hypokalemia and hypertension and metabolic alkalosis, mineralocorticoid excess and possible long term cardiac arrhythmia..

Without research and Medicine folks wouldn't know that?


Anyhow, I am not sure why folks even entertain you, seems the majority have lost interest..

:w:
Reply

Tariqa
01-01-2009, 03:45 AM
All I have so far is your word to go on & so far you are neither consistent nor credible!
if you dont beleve me i will provide sources. its not easy ..this is a very difficult subject and well kept secrete


I have no idea what that means.. what are your qualifications then? These are the standard set.. Just like in Islam, if you want to become a scholar you need formal schooling, in science if you want to become a scholar you need formal schooling.. seems rudimentary?
what i mean is that whi says this science is really even a sceince.. You cant just judge a mans expertise because he went to school what about if that school was a flawed school..?? does that make him qualifies in islam then??


Where in my post did I state, I don't believe in black seed and honey?
if that is what your implying that black seed is a joke because we have medical advancements then thats what i got out of what you said espeecialy when you said that i may be delusional about anceint healings.
All medications have side effects, that is the case with any xenobiotic -- Licorice is a natural plant that many middle easterners have as drinks, yet chronic licorice intoxication is a well-recognized cause of hypokalemia and hypertension and metabolic alkalosis, mineralocorticoid excess and possible long term cardiac arrhythmia..
That is claerly wrong.. Honey does not have any side effects except for exceptions, rare exceptions... We are not talking about side effects, we are talking about the drugs itself being the effect...!!!
Without research and Medicine folks wouldn't know that?

Anyhow, I am not sure why folks even entertain you, seems the majority have lost interest..
mahashallah
Reply

جوري
01-01-2009, 04:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
if you dont beleve me i will provide sources. its not easy ..this is a very difficult subject and well kept secrete
lol.. then how is it this secret knowledge is made available only to you? How did you formulate your opinion? You interviewed your neighbors or better yet, ran a randomized double blind clinical trial of which the FBI is persecuting you for an all out expose against the AMA?



what i mean is that whi says this science is really even a sceince.. You cant just judge a mans expertise because he went to school what about if that school was a flawed school..?? does that make him qualifies in islam then??
I don't understand what you mean? Science is about being able to produce solutions in some problem domain.. if you are successful widely so, you document it and it becomes the standard of care until something even better comes along.. being a doctor imposes on you CME yearly (continuing medical education) in order to stay current and renew your license.. a faulty or flawed school means nothing if you are capable of passing the standardized international exams taken by physicians the world over..
I really don't like hypotheticals.. you have challenged science with nothing much to go on save your own accusations.. yet you provide us with no evidence or even your own credentials whether theological or scientific.. do you not find this preposterous?
if that is what your implying that black seed is a joke because we have medical advancements then thats what i got out of what you said espeecialy when you said that i may be delusional about anceint healings.
Again, I am asking you, where I stated black seed is a joke.. I think you are delusional period. I have a book of prophetic medicine here and it doesn't stray too far from the modern scientific method.. Black seed and honey take but two pages of a 359 page book.. which I'll go on a limb and say you probably don't even have in your possession?
http://www.darussalam.com/product_in...roducts_id=195

That is claerly wrong.. Honey does not have any side effects except for exceptions, rare exceptions... We are not talking about side effects, we are talking about the drugs itself being the effect...!!!
Without research and Medicine folks wouldn't know that?



mahashallah
Where did I mention 'Honey' is a medication or has side effects in my post, perhaps you can quote me? in fact Honey is being used to combat MRSA

http://tahilla.typepad.com/mrsawatch...ney/index.html

A British scientist has clinched a £28,000 grant to fund research into how simple breakfast honey can combat the killer MRSA superbug. Microbiologist Dr Rose Cooper, based at the University of Wales Institute, Cardiff, began studying the health benefits of honey eight years ago, and now she is savouring the sweet smell of success. Cash from the British Society for Anti-Microbial Chemotherapy will fund 12 months' research into the role of New Zealand manuka honey in the fight against MRSA.

as well a host of other disease, YES still by modern Medicine..
Perhaps the problem is that you are gauging a subject of which you have no knowledge whatsoever ..

and admittance of an ill executed thought isn't defeat, keeping the nonsense up and deducing what you desire to see in terms of flaws in the thoughts of others however is!

:w:
Reply

doorster
01-01-2009, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
.. I am not a crack pot ...
can you prove it?
Again to the admin who is saying or is stating that depression is cause by chemical imbalances i say prove it.... You forget mister that depression is not a law..
if there is NO real mental illness then why did Allah and his Prophet prohibit punishments for crimes by the mentally ill (except in afghani/saudi/iranian practice due to distorted versions of Islam)?

edit:

and why was first ever psychiatric hospital in the world opened by Muslims?
:peace:
whats up fake mullah saab? did you not see this? ^^

honey and black seed is a cure all solution for all illness? do you really believe that medicine should be abandoned in favor of it?

why are people dying of old age at around 45 in Pakistan (with exception of rich who have access to latest medicine?)

I bet I get abused for this post and get accused of insulting this half-read ignoramus by <snipped> but mullah is being let off for repeated false accusations against other Muslims, who seem to me to be more more learned and he keeps implying that Skye and Woodrow need forgiveness for being educated as if not to remain ignorant is a sin
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
I apologize if anyone has misunderstood me.. I am not a crack pot nor does anyone hear me issuing fatwas
your very first lesson in Islamic Arabic terminology:
A fatwā [فتوى ], is an opinion about religious matters (no matter if its from a real aalim or a lahnatullah or any loony who has delusions of being a scholar
Reply

Woodrow
01-01-2009, 05:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
if you dont beleve me i will provide sources. its not easy ..this is a very difficult subject and well kept secrete
It is such a well kept secrete that those of us who are or have been in the medical field have not seen it either.





what i mean is that whi says this science is really even a sceince.. You cant just judge a mans expertise because he went to school what about if that school was a flawed school..?? does that make him qualifies in islam then??
There is a bit more involved than simply Graduating from school. After schooling there are internships, passing standardized licensing exams, meeting the standards of a hospital for your residency.

Now as far as does this make him qualified in Islam? No more and no less than becoming a pilot would qualify a person in Islam. A person who is a good Muslim need not change because they become a doctor, likewise a person who is not a Muslim will not become one because they don't become a doctor.


if that is what your implying that black seed is a joke because we have medical advancements then thats what i got out of what you said espeecialy when you said that i may be delusional about anceint healings.
When black seed is used for what it is designed for it is a medicine but even it can be misused. Such as being given for things it has no healing powers for. the early Muslims were also well skilled in surgery and other forms of medicines.


That is claerly wrong.. Honey does not have any side effects except for exceptions, rare exceptions... We are not talking about side effects, we are talking about the drugs itself being the effect...!!!
When honey is used properly that is true. But like all things honey too can be misused. A potent intoxicant, ouzel I beleive is the name, is made from honey and is a popular liquar in several countries. Many people believe it is not an intoxicant because the alcohol is produced from fermented honey instead of fermented fruit.

As sister Skye stated any occupation can be used for the wrong purposes. Raising grain is a good thing, but it is also the base for many alcoholic beverages, beer, whiskey, vodka, ale, mead etc.. Alcohol is responsible for many deaths, the destruction of homes and broken families.

Does that make farming an evil occupation? Without farming there would be no large scale production of alcoholic beverages. Alcohol could very well be the single most destructive product on earth.

Now let us take automobiles. More people die each year in automobile accidents than in the worse war year of WW2. Does that mean to become a licensed driver is an evil endeavor and that Muslims should not learn to drive as it contributes to road slaughter? Nearly all accidents are the result of driver error, are drivers trained to kill? So far more people have died or became maimed because of faulty drivers, than in all of the known wars combined.
Reply

Tariqa
01-01-2009, 05:26 AM
It is such a well kept secrete that those of us who are or have been in the medical field have not seen it either.
Its not a secrte because we know its true.. its just not that popularly known..



There is a bit more involved than simply Graduating from school. After schooling there are internships, passing standardized licensing exams, meeting the standards of a hospital for your residency.
iot doesnt matter.. many people will beleve any idiot just because he has a degree.. that doesnt make thje field he has got his degree in any more valid becuase its on paper.. the whole profesion could be a sham..


.




When black seed is used for what it is designed for it is a medicine but even it can be misused. Such as being given for things it has no healing powers for. the early Muslims were also well skilled in surgery and other forms of medicines.
were not denying that but there were many muslims that did things that the prophet did not do.. for see eating onions.. the prophet did not eat these things but the muslims still did it.. maybe since its not the sunnah to do you think maybe thats a sgin that we should not do so either??




Now let us take automobiles. More people die each year in automobile accidents than in the worse war year of WW2. Does that mean to become a licensed driver is an evil endeavor and that Muslims should not learn to drive as it contributes to road slaughter? Nearly all accidents are the result of driver error, are drivers trained to kill? So far more people have died or became maimed because of faulty drivers, than in all of the known wars combined.
This is different.. you cannot compare a theory of mental illness to the fact of cars.. We can see cars and choose not to drive them, but we cannot say the same about mental illness..
Reply

doorster
01-01-2009, 08:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
Its not a secrte because we know its true.. its just not that popularly known..

iot doesnt matter.. many people will beleve any idiot just because he has a degree.. that doesnt make thje field he has got his degree in any more valid becuase its on paper.. the whole profesion could be a sham..

were not denying that but there were many muslims that did things that the prophet did not do.. for see eating onions.. the prophet did not eat these things but the muslims still did it.. maybe since its not the sunnah to do you think maybe thats a sgin that we should not do so either??

This is different.. you cannot compare a theory of mental illness to the fact of cars.. We can see cars and choose not to drive them, but we cannot say the same about mental illness..
How many have you got?

Lesson 1 in English terminology:

Idiot: (definition of)

  • a person of subnormal intelligence


  • idiotic - crackbrained: insanely irresponsible
  • idiotic - absurd: incongruous;inviting ridicule
  • idiotic - imbecile: having a mental age of three to seven years

word Idiot is derived from the Greek language and was used to classify individuals with severe mental retardation. These individuals were unable to function well enough to take care of themselves and required care around the clock. They could never hope to get any degree from an educational institute, however, some do manage to escape from mental institutions and end up here to wreak havoc on forums until they are recaptured.
Reply

Tariqa
01-01-2009, 10:01 AM
word Idiot is derived from the Greek language and was used to classify individuals with severe mental retardation. These individuals were unable to function well enough to take care of themselves and required care around the clock. They could never hope to get any degree from an educational institute, however, some do manage to escape from mental institutions and end up here to wreak havoc on forums until they are recaptured
people will escept an idiots word if he has somthing opf value.. what are you getting it.. many people are very ignorant what is your point???
Reply

doorster
01-01-2009, 10:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
people will escept an idiots word if he has somthing opf value.. what are you getting it.. many people are very ignorant what is your point???
do you own a full length mirror?
Reply

Tariqa
01-01-2009, 09:01 PM
excuse my spelling but i am not an idiot im waiting for someone to prove me wrong as what i am saying is clearly true...
Reply

doorster
01-01-2009, 09:10 PM
yeah! clearly you are not an idiot since only an idiot will go to school and university to waste years, when he could simply have made do with myth and magic and become Amish-like, how dare we use evil western medicine when Prophet clearly had none of it likewise how dare we use Jeep, helicopter, jet fighter in our armed forces when prophet won battles on horse back
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Tariqa
01-01-2009, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
yeah! clearly you are not an idiot since only an idiot will go to school and university to waste years, when he could simply have made do with myth and magic and become Amish-like, how dare we use evil western medicine when Prophet clearly had none of it likewise how dare we use Jeep, helicopter, jet fighter in our armed forces when prophet won battles on horse back
It seems you are mocking me but think about this.. how much haram insurnce moeny do you pay to keep your jeeps and stuff.. how many haram pictures do you see on people to keep cars.. maybe there is wisdom in keeping to the sunnah as close as possible...


I would not object to becoming amishlike especially since people are predicting global warming may be caused by us..

its a shame so many muslims go to schools to get degrees that have prerequites that have nothing to do with the degree..
Reply

doorster
01-01-2009, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
It seems you are mocking me but think about this.. how much haram insurnce moeny do you pay to keep your jeeps and stuff.. how many haram pictures do you see on people to keep cars.. maybe there is wisdom in keeping to the sunnah as close as possible...


I would not object to becoming amishlike especially since people are predicting global warming may be caused by us..

its a shame so many muslims go to schools to get degrees that have prerequites that have nothing to do with the degree..
right again, we should give up every piece of modern armaments in favor of sword, it will not only make us green but enable kuffar to send us to paradise quicker and a lot easier than at present.
Reply

جوري
01-01-2009, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
excuse my spelling but i am not an idiot im waiting for someone to prove me wrong as what i am saying is clearly true...
I think everyone on board has proven you wrong thus far, I am not sure why you have this desire to beat a dead horse? You are certainly welcome to the life style of your choosing .. It is also Islamic not to preoccupy yourself so much and be overly judgmental with what your neighbors are doing, given you lack basic knowledge in almost every topic you've gauged, you might do folks more harm than good-- though I doubt you inspire a little more than a minor itch on everyone's side..


and Allah swt knows best

:w:
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Tariqa
01-01-2009, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I think everyone on board has proven you wrong thus far, I am not sure why you have this desire to beat a dead horse? You are certainly welcome to the life style of your choosing .. It is also Islamic not to preoccupy yourself so much and be overly judgmental with what your neighbors are doing, given you lack basic knowledge in almost every topic you've gauged, you might do folks more harm than good-- though I doubt you inspire a little more than a minor itch on everyone's side..


and Allah swt knows best

:w:


by allah name one thing that one person has proven me wrong at..

the scholars say that its best to use a sword because the prophet used a sword.. but in the case of murder we can use what they use so if they use a gun we can.. that does not make it right.. that just means we are doing it becuase we have to not because we want to...

the sword is somthing a rather use but it may be that in this day.. the modern weapons will be wiser ..not better but wiser.. it is a shame many muslims mock others for thier wisdom and what they do not understand..
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جوري
01-01-2009, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
by allah name one thing that one person has proven me wrong at....
Actually everyone has-- further gone to do what you have failed to accomplish and that is provide reason and credible sources!.. your failure to accept what others wrote, is a matter entirely different.
You are entitled to your sole beliefs at this point!
reason should be built upon logic, and it is also the very foundation of our religion.. it isn't subject to your archaic interpretation and crude understanding.. on the lowest common denominator you are not even a scholar. If we are to forgo the scientist aspect of someone who wishes to discuss science, we shouldn't forgo the scholar aspect of someone who wishes to discuss religion.. but seems at both end, neither is to your liking, that is NOT anything anyone can help.. with that said, do and live as you please!

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
Reply

Tariqa
01-01-2009, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Actually everyone has-- further gone to do what you have failed to accomplish and that is provide reason and credible sources!.. your failure to accept what others wrote, is a matter entirely different.
You are entitled to your sole beliefs at this point!
reason should be built upon logic, and it is also the very foundation of our religion.. it isn't subject to your archaic interpretation and crude understanding.. on the lowest common denominator you are not even a scholar. If we are to forgo the scientist aspect of someone who wishes to discuss science, we shouldn't forgo the scholar aspect of someone who wishes to discuss religion.. but seems at both end, neither is to your liking, that is NOT anything anyone can help.. with that said, do and live as you please!

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

you need a credible source??? this is fine but you cannot say that anyone has proven me wrong when i have sources.. just because i have been too busy to get sources does not make me wrong...

and again i have been studing sceince and islam since i was a child.. and yet and still i do not say that i am a better scientist or scholar then so and so.. much of what i say is from others opinions.. i am only conveying the message if you do not like what i say do not attack me attack the one where i have got my information from..

oh right you need sources..
please be pateint because like i have said , the imformation i recieve is not common knowledge... i am like a jewler i seek only the most rare of gems... much of what i know is not the least common to the average thinker.. much of what i say takes loogic to understand.. many get emotional the minute they hear of anything i have found...

so again be pateint,.... i will be happy to give you the sources.. but it will take me much research indeed.. like classified information you cannot expect to just find it in your local library.. they do not want you to know the negitive sides of medicine which is why many only talk about only the positive sides..

fyi did you even know ALL drugs are poisions??? i bet you id not because this is somthing the drug agenicies would might not like to get out into common thougts...
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جوري
01-01-2009, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
you need a credible source??? this is fine but you cannot say that anyone has proven me wrong when i have sources.. just because i have been too busy to get sources does not make me wrong..
.
Interesting.. but what are people basing their judgment on?
1-You have done no formal research.
2-you didn't tighten the confidence interval on your non existing research as to make it credible
3-You didn't provide research of others to support your point of view
4- you didn't list the flaws or confounders in the research offered you --
I am a little at a loss.. exactly how are you correct?

and again i have been studing sceince and islam since i was a child.. and yet and still i do not say that i am a better scientist or scholar then so and so.. much of what i say is from others opinions.. i am only conveying the message if you do not like what i say do not attack me attack the one where i have got my information from..
Thus far every post of yours is replete with insults towards proper schooling whether by Islamic scholars or 'western science' .. I am not sure exactly what science or what Islam you have learned? your posts are puerile at best!

oh right you need sources..
please be pateint because like i have said , the imformation i recieve is not common knowledge... i am like a jewler i seek only the most rare of gems... much of what i know is not the least common to the average thinker.. much of what i say takes loogic to understand.. many get emotional the minute they hear of anything i have found...
Again, the only person here who is emotional is you, but you are projecting! -- on the previous page, we told you, we'd wait for your sources and research, why do you go on insisting you are correct without backing it up for pages of nonsense.. even if we'll consider you of a milatonic mind, do grant some respite to us bucolic country oafs and throw us a little bone we can sink our teeth in!

so again be pateint,.... i will be happy to give you the sources.. but it will take me much research indeed.. like classified information you cannot expect to just find it in your local library.. they do not want you to know the negitive sides of medicine which is why many only talk about only the positive sides..
we'll be waiting!

fyi did you even know ALL drugs are poisions??? i bet you id not because this is somthing the drug agenicies would might not like to get out into common thougts..
I believe I have told you as much on the previous page if you'll bother reading.. I believe I also told you about three phases of clinical trials, as well, you may in your secret research read upon 'lethal dose' 'Toxic dose' 'therapeutic dose' area under the curve (MAC) we have plenty of pharmacists on board I am sure who can explain this to you in greater details if you are still having difficulty..

The point of medicine is the greater good, the pros vs. cons, It isn't the fountain of youth, as even doctors die!

but thanks for the heads up!

all the best

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
Reply

Tariqa
01-02-2009, 01:23 AM
Interesting.. but what are people basing their judgment on?
1-You have done no formal research.
2-you didn't tighten the confidence interval on your non existing research as to make it credible
3-You didn't provide research of others to support your point of view
4- you didn't list the flaws or confounders in the research offered you --
I am a little at a loss.. exactly how are you correct?
I did.
inshallaha i will
i will inshallah and i did
i did and i will inshallah.. if i did not

Thus far every post of yours is replete with insults towards proper schooling whether by Islamic scholars or 'western science' .. I am not sure exactly what science or what Islam you have learned? your posts are puerile at best!
I do not insult anyone....and allah knows best

Again, the only person here who is emotional is you, but you are projecting! -- on the previous page, we told you, we'd wait for your sources and research, why do you go on insisting you are correct without backing it up for pages of nonsense.. even if we'll consider you of a milatonic mind, do grant some respite to us bucolic country oafs and throw us a little bone we can sink our teeth in!
i am not emotional.. i will correct any false information as need in order to keep moving along to get my point across.
I have proof.. but it seems you and others keep pressing me fopr proof.. its like you keep saying "prove it prove it." give me some time so that i can get the proof..

we'll be waiting!
alhumdulillah

I believe I have told you as much on the previous page if you'll bother reading.. I believe I also told you about three phases of clinical trials, as well, you may in your secret research read upon 'lethal dose' 'Toxic dose' 'therapeutic dose' area under the curve (MAC) we have plenty of pharmacists on board I am sure who can explain this to you in greater details if you are still having difficulty..
I dont understand what that has to do with anything.. drugs are poisions and every doctor should know that..

The point of medicine is the greater good, the pros vs. cons, It isn't the fountain of youth, as even doctors die!
yes the greater good.. yeah but do you know how many people are dying in america alone... 75% of the country or so is obese... 91% of the people that may go to the dentist regularly has cavities... these numbers indicate that the medical worlds is the leading causer of death in america let alone the world.. mental illness treatments alone has killed more people than any wars has done...health complications is at its highest of ills.. how can you say its doing more good then bad..??? who is doing the judging???
Reply

جوري
01-02-2009, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
I did.
inshallaha i will
i will inshallah and i did
i did and i will inshallah.. if i did not
we'll be waiting!
I do not insult anyone....and allah knows best
Selective memory loss perhaps!
i am not emotional.. i will correct any false information as need in order to keep moving along to get my point across.
I have proof.. but it seems you and others keep pressing me fopr proof.. its like you keep saying "prove it prove it." give me some time so that i can get the proof..
Indeed.. why do you gauge a topic that you are unable to back up short of fervently insisting?

alhumdulillah
!



I dont understand what that has to do with anything.. drugs are poisions and every doctor should know that..
What is your point?
the mortality difference plus improvement of symptoms is what drives you..
You could forgo a vaccine for Meningococcus and literally die within 24 hrs of Waterhouse-Friedrichsen Syndrome or you can take a simple vaccine and risk redness or pain where the shot was given, headache or fatigue worst case scenario and rarely Guillain-Barré Syndrome -- any wise thinking person I suppose will chose pain and headache over death.. what do you think? that is what the paragraph above denotes.. benefits outweighing risk.. is that simple enough for you to understand?

yes the greater good.. yeah but do you know how many people are dying in america alone... 75% of the country or so is obese
Death is something man is meant to endure.. what does obesity have to do with modern medicine?


... 91% of the people that may go to the dentist regularly has cavities...
yeah, they have poor hygiene, or some have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome ( a disease) they can't help having poor blood vessles and fragile collagen!
these numbers indicate that the medical worlds is the leading causer of death in america let alone the world..
How so? perhaps you can elaborate?

mental illness treatments alone has killed more people than any wars has done...health complications is at its highest of ills.. how can you say its doing more good then bad..??? who is doing the judging???
Yes, so you keep saying.. I'd like to see numbers.. those helped vs those unhelped, and how those taking medications are worst.. is that difficult for you to do? That is your main objective I assume with this thread, how about you run a world wide study and run it to the world health organization, it seems your allegations are serious indeed and in need of prompt attention.. in lieu of arguing nonsense on the forum all day, I suggest you prove what you say so something can be done about it!

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
Reply

Tariqa
01-02-2009, 02:12 AM
!




What is your point?
the mortality difference plus improvement of symptoms is what drives you..
You could forgo a vaccine for Meningococcus and literally die within 24 hrs of Waterhouse-Friedrichsen Syndrome or you can take a simple vaccine and risk redness or pain where the shot was given, headache or fatigue worst case scenario and rarely Guillain-Barré Syndrome -- any wise thinking person I suppose will chose pain and headache over death.. what do you think? that is what the paragraph above denotes.. benefits outweighing risk.. is that simple enough for you to understand?
Did it occur to you that its more than medicine its a lifstyle... a person who lives illy will get ill.. those medications are ills to a healthy person..

Death is something man is meant to endure.. what does obesity have to do with modern medicine?
It has virtually everything to do with it.. The doctors do not direct you to anything natural they give you pills.. How many do you know are unhelathy by eating good and living good?? How many do you know are constanly sick and go to the doctors and never get cured only to have to make another visit next month??


yeah, they have poor hygiene, or some have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome ( a disease) they can't help having poor blood vessles and fragile collagen!
yes your right they have poor hygine even thought they do everything the doctors tell them to do... they brush regualr and make regual checkups and still get cavities.. why?? because the doctors lifestyle and recommedations are 91% most likely not true.. they keep getting cavities not because they ar not doing what the doctors say but most likely because the doctors advice is giving them poor hygine.




Yes, so you keep saying.. I'd like to see numbers.. those helped vs those unhelped, and how those taking medications are worst.. is that difficult for you to do? That is your main objective I assume with this thread, how about you run a world wide study and run it to the world health organization, it seems your allegations are serious indeed and in need of prompt attention.. in lieu of arguing nonsense on the forum all day, I suggest you prove what you say so something can be done about it!
take a look at the dentist.. 91% of the people that go to dentist and follow orders still end up with cavities.. that is proof enough that majoirty of the people that go for help gets not that exactly...
Reply

جوري
01-02-2009, 02:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
!

Did it occur to you that its more than medicine its a lifstyle... a person who lives illy will get ill.. those medications are ills to a healthy person..
What the hell are you talking about? Sob7an Allah.. do you just have to get your quota of crap in? This particular example I used specifically strikes children.. you were never struck by disease?


It has virtually everything to do with it.. The doctors do not direct you to anything natural they give you pills.. How many do you know are unhelathy by eating good and living good?? How many do you know are constanly sick and go to the doctors and never get cured only to have to make another visit next month??
Doctors deal with pathology, and preventive medicine which is highly dependent on the field.. do you expect a pathologist or an anesthesiologist or a radiologist to lecture you on your obesity in fact they stand to suffer more if you are in bad shape (litigation) . No one can spoon feed you compliance!.. hardly seems fair to blame them for your poor life style choices.. and shows you how much you know of medicine.. treatment is almost never prescribed on a first visit unless there is a serious reason to, a Judgment call which I wouldn't expect you to understand!




yes your right they have poor hygine even thought they do everything the doctors tell them to do... they brush regualr and make regual checkups and still get cavities.. why?? because the doctors lifestyle and recommedations are 91% most likely not true.. they keep getting cavities not because they ar not doing what the doctors say but most likely because the doctors advice is giving them poor hygine.
Forgive me but at this stage I know for a fact you are full of ****.. I am tired of arguing against your ignorance and nonsense.. you are so undereducated I hope to God you are not in contact with people to whom you can bring harm with your linear thought process!


take a look at the dentist.. 91% of the people that go to dentist and follow orders still end up with cavities.. that is proof enough that majoirty of the people that go for help gets not that exactly...
:rolleyes:
Reply

Tariqa
01-02-2009, 02:40 AM
Doctors deal with pathology, and preventive medicine which is highly dependent on the field.. do you expect a pathologist or an anesthesiologist or a radiologist to lecture you on your obesity in fact they stand to suffer more if you are in bad shape (litigation) . No one can spoon feed you compliance!.. hardly seems fair to blame them for your poor life style choices.. and shows you how much you know of medicine.. treatment is almost never prescribed on a first visit unless there is a serious reason to, a Judgment call which I wouldn't expect you to understand!
why do docotors not tell the patients to start eating better or the medicine will make it worst.. they will not get health by taking drugs..
Reply

Muezzin
01-02-2009, 04:43 PM
I know there are at least five good reasons to close this thread.

But it's too entertaining.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
why do docotors not tell the patients to start eating better or the medicine will make it worst.. they will not get health by taking drugs..
Look, I don't know what the doctors are like round your end, but the few times I've been physically ill enough to be prescribed drugs, the doctor (or pharmacist when applicable) has told me:

1 - the particular drug, its effects, and the dosage

2 - which foods to eat or avoid

3 - how much rest I need

4 - what I can do to avoid becoming ill in the future

I don't know if I'm lucky, but somehow, despite the interference of what you imply is a sham profession, I am still alive over a decade later!
Reply

alcurad
01-02-2009, 04:51 PM
close thread close thread..




I mean, no offense but really,,,
Reply

doorster
01-02-2009, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Look, I don't know what the doctors are like round your end, but the few times I've been physically ill enough to be prescribed drugs, the doctor (or pharmacist when applicable) has told me:

1 - the particular drug, its effects, and the dosage

2 - which foods to eat or avoid

3 - how much rest I need

I don't know if I'm lucky, but somehow, despite the interference of what you imply is a sham profession, I am still alive over a decade later!
I had a friend in Pakistan, who died of TB through lack of medication for being poor at age 25. One person died of an asthma attack of all things. Another passed away through lack of antidote for a snake bite 1985, because nearest clinic to their village was 6 mile walk each way

I, myself was saved from TB 3 years ago by an evil clinic in England who no doubt used evil antibiotics when I should really have used honey and blackseed.^o)

oh and I knew someone who was born in 1927 and was kept alive until 2007 despite having been shot in 1984 by backward looking cave dwelling sectarian killers followed by a stroke followed by move to England

:w:
Reply

Mysterious Uk
01-02-2009, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I know there are at least five good reasons to close this thread.

But it's too entertaining.


Look, I don't know what the doctors are like round your end, but the few times I've been physically ill enough to be prescribed drugs, the doctor (or pharmacist when applicable) has told me:

1 - the particular drug, its effects, and the dosage

2 - which foods to eat or avoid

3 - how much rest I need

4 - what I can do to avoid becoming ill in the future

I don't know if I'm lucky, but somehow, despite the interference of what you imply is a sham profession, I am still alive over a decade later!
Yeh please DONT close this thread it is really funny. Yeh it isn't just doctors there is a campaign thing (posters, t.v. adverts etc) in the Uk to make poeple understand that medicine doesn't cure cold or flu. People are urged to exercise and all that business.
Reply

Tariqa
01-02-2009, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mysterious Uk
Yeh please DONT close this thread it is really funny. Yeh it isn't just doctors there is a campaign thing (posters, t.v. adverts etc) in the Uk to make poeple understand that medicine doesn't cure cold or flu. People are urged to exercise and all that business.

i greatly apoligize if i am coming off as ignorant.. i urge the mods not to close my threads because i do have an understanding of this subject..

It is easy to se that the people unhelathiness comes from their diet..
The doctors are like drug dealers.. they are not making anyone better they only make it worst....

they condone an unhealthy lifestlye even if they tell you that you need foods and rest, they still give you drugs as last minute resort..

How would anyone learn if they are constanly rewarded with lifesaving operations??


One more thing.... the reason people are dying is because they have become addicted to this drugged lifestyle... In many times patainets are too drugged up to turn to a helathy lifestlye.. The doctors have conditioned them so much like a trainer to an animal.. If they would try to live some alternitive lifestlye most likely the would relaspse and die...

it is the conditioning of the doctors which is why the world needs drugs so much..
If they were never introduced to this ill way it is safe to say that the world might not have so many diseases and the world would most likely be a healthier place..
Reply

جوري
01-02-2009, 10:05 PM
took me a good two seconds to google this, grabbed the first on the list too..

Life expectancy to soar


There is "no sign" of a ceiling on life expectancy

People are set to live increasingly long lives, and reaching 100 will soon be "commonplace", say experts.
They say that although there is no prospect of immortality, the trend for living increasingly long lives looks set to continue.

Centenarians - 100-year-olds - will become unexceptional within the lifetimes of people alive today, according to Jim Oeppen, from Cambridge University, UK, and Dr James Vaupel, from the Max Plank Institute for Demography in Rostock, Germany.

They said there was no sign there was a natural limit, as some experts had predicted.

Each time one has been suggested, it has been exceeded within five years.

Increased life expectancy

The researchers' suggestion that life expectancies could rise is based on patterns seen since 1840.



This is far from eternity: modest annual increments in life expectancy will never lead to immortality

Researchers Jim Oeppen and Dr James Vaupel
Since then, the highest average life expectancy has improved by a quarter of a year every year.

If that trend continues, the researchers say people in the country with the highest life expectancy would live to an average age of 100 in about six decades.

The researchers wrote in the journal Science: "This is far from eternity: modest annual increments in life expectancy will never lead to immortality.

"It is striking, however, that centenarians may become commonplace within the lifetimes of people living today."

Average lifespan around the world is around double what it was 200 years ago. It is now around 65 for men and 70 for women.

Japanese women are currently the likeliest to live long lives, on average reaching 84.6 years of age.

Japanese men are the second longest male survivors, reaching an average age of 77.6 years old.

'No ceiling'

The British rank well down the list. Men come in at 14th in the world table, living to an average age of 75 while women are in 18th place, living on average to 79.9.

In France, there is a big difference between men and women's life expectancy.

Men came 16th in the world table, with an average lifespan of 74.9, with French women in fourth place with a life expectancy of 82.4 years.


British women have a life expectancy of 79.9

Mr Oeppen, senior research associate at the Cambridge Group for the History of Population and Social Structure, said: "One of the assumptions is that life expectancy will rise a bit and then reach a ceiling it cannot go through.

"But people have been assuming that since the 1920s and it hasn't proved to be the case.

"If we were close to the ceiling we might expect the survival of Japanese women now to be improving at a slower rate. But the improvement in Japan is among the fastest in the world."

He added: "I think there is a ceiling, but we don't know where it is. We haven't got there yet."

Mr Oeppen and Dr Vaupel said their predictions meant even the highest forecast for numbers of elderly people in the future could be too low, affecting decisions over pensions, health care, and other social needs.

Political reaction

Frank Field, Labour MP for Birkenhead and chairman of the all-party committee on pensions, welcomed the report.

He called for an independent body to be set up to examine the need for an increase in the retirement age.

He said: "If you look at life expectancy in 1948, when the state pension was introduced, and take that as a reasonable length of time to receive a pension, you would have a retirement age of 74 today."


I wonder why people are living longer today than they did 200 yrs ago? Must be magic!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1977733.stm
Reply

Tariqa
01-02-2009, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I wonder why people are living longer today than they did 200 yrs ago? Must be magic!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1977733.stm

what you do not understand is that people in anceint times used to live to thousands of years old..

obesity is a health problem.. it is the #1 killer of america...it kills more than 65% of the nation because more than 60% of the nation or more is obese..

This is because of the unhealthy liofestyle many have been living and with the people depending on the doctors who "support their unhelathy lifestyles" by giving them quick drugs and such, the people will not learn and continue to live these unhelathy lifestyles...which is clearly haram in islam..

Allah prohibits one to assist in sin.. Are these docotors not helping the masses continue to live these unhealthy lifestyles.. with quick fixes that do not cure....only delay the problems.??
Reply

جوري
01-02-2009, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
what you do not understand is that people in anceint times used to live to thousands of years old..
:sl:
The prophet and his companion lived to be thousands, sob7an Allah, that is news to me, thanks for the heads up..
obesity is a health problem.. it is the #1 killer of america...it kills more than 65% of the nation because more than 60% of the nation or more is obese..
aha
Why do the eating habits of other folks whether endocrine in origin or pure gluttony concern you so? and again, how are doctors or modern science contributing to it? Perhaps you should direct your grievances to the folks at KFC, Dunkin Donuts, and frito lays?
you are too funny.. I wonder how long you can keep this up, but it seems you don't read or unable to comprehend what is written?

This is because of the unhealthy liofestyle many have been living and with the people depending on the doctors who "support their unhelathy lifestyles" by giving them quick drugs and such, the people will not learn and continue to live these unhelathy lifestyles...which is clearly haram in islam..
again, I fail to see how doctors are crusading for obesity?.. perhaps you can connect the dots for me?..

Allah prohibits one to assist in sin.. Are these docotors not helping the masses continue to live these unhealthy lifestyles.. with quick fixes that do not cure....only delay the problems.??
I really think you should give it up.. I would be embarrassed by now if I were you -- unless you are unwell in the head, which I am really starting to believe is the case..
thanks for the many pages of pure hilarity :D

:w:
Reply

Tariqa
01-02-2009, 11:31 PM
The prophet and his companion lived to be thousands, sob7an Allah, that is news to me, thanks for the heads up..
Its true.. prophets like adam and noah, musa(a) they all lived for hundreds of years or more.. they were healthier then we are today and they had lees modern advancements..

aha
Why do the eating habits of other folks whether endocrine in origin or pure gluttony concern you so? and again, how are doctors or modern science contributing to it? Perhaps you should direct your grievances to the folks at KFC, Dunkin Donuts, and frito lays?
you are too funny.. I wonder how long you can keep this up, but it seems you don't read or unable to comprehend what is written?
The doctors are apart of this global scheme.. Its like this, the people come up with unhealthy foods, the doctors come up with drugs that counter the effects of these unhelathy foods... Do you not see?? They are like a team, a 1,2 punch wam bam deal.. They are like the maids that clean up after the masters flith.. they are working for this regime. they do not condemn it because they are making mass amounts of money for the treating the sicknesses of the world in the manner they do..

again, I fail to see how doctors are crusading for obesity?.. perhaps you can connect the dots for me?..
again, alternitives to unhealthy lifestlye equals contribution and not refuting. See above for more..


I really think you should give it up.. I would be embarrassed by now if I were you -- unless you are unwell in the head, which I am really starting to believe is the case..
thanks for the many pages of pure hilarity :D
We will see who will have the last laugh when the organic and natural eaters of america avoids the gambling ways and assisting ways of the unhealthy lifestlye.. It may seem like a joke to you but this way is closer to the sunnah. The prophet of ilsam did not himself use the assistence of doctors. Perhaps there is more wisdoms from the prophets then what you call modern knowledge.. I do think the sunnah shows more advancments then any modern science would ever show.. I do think the Allah and his prophets know best what is best for the creation indeed.
Reply

جوري
01-02-2009, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
Its true.. prophets like adam and noah, musa(a) they all lived for hundreds of years or more.. they were healthier then we are today and they had lees modern advancements..
Did the prophet Mohammed or anyone from the prophet Mohammed's (SAW) time live to hundreds and thousands? yes or no? I think the question is fairly simple?

The doctors are apart of this global scheme.. Its like this, the people come up with unhealthy foods, the doctors come up with drugs that counter the effects of these unhelathy foods... Do you not see?? They are like a team, a 1,2 punch wam bam deal.. They are like the maids that clean up after the masters flith.. they are working for this regime. they do not condemn it because they are making mass amounts of money for the treating the sicknesses of the world in the manner they do..
No I don't see it, further just provided you a report stating that we are living longer today than we have 200 years ago, thanks to the advances in modern science.. a gift indeed from Allah SWT it is to be educated and to help people, not revel in ignorance and flaunt it like a badge of honor!


again, alternitives to unhealthy lifestlye equals contribution and not refuting. See above for more..
What are you talking about? so what for more? you are as credible as a three dollar bill



We will see who will have the last laugh when the organic and natural eaters of america avoids the gambling ways and assisting ways of the unhealthy lifestlye.. It may seem like a joke to you but this way is closer to the sunnah. The prophet of ilsam did not himself use the assistence of doctors. Perhaps there is more wisdoms from the prophets then what you call modern knowledge.. I do think the sunnah shows more advancments then any modern science would ever show.. I do think the Allah and his prophets know best what is best for the creation indeed.
Not only were there doctors during the time of the prophet, but there were women doctors and surgeons as well!

Women Surgeons
Rufaidah Aslamiyyah was an expert in medicine and surgery. She used to tend to the sick and wounded in the battlefields. According to Ibn Sa'd, her tent was equipped with equipment for surgery and first aid. When Sa'd ibn Mu'adh was injured in the Battle of the Trenches, the Prophet transferred him to her tent for medical care.

http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat...arly_islam.htm

I hope for your sake, that you'd request a ban, you are beyond help.. enroll in some classes, preferably starting with Islamic fiqh before you speak like an ignoramus on every thread.

:w:
Reply

Mysterious Uk
01-02-2009, 11:44 PM
So Tariqa.. are you saying that people rely too heavly on modern/western medicine? and that ALL modern/western medicine should stop?
Reply

جوري
01-02-2009, 11:51 PM
more on the subject

Medicine

Throughout history nations have developed materially in all spheres of life. Advancements in science have made this possible, particularly in the field of medicine. However, unknown to many, much of modern science today has emanated from the Muslim world. Whilst Europe was (and still is) stuck in the Dark Ages, the Islaamic State , which is called the Khilaafah, was leading the world in Science and Medicine. It boasted the founding fathers of many sciences that diagnosed and treated meningitis as well as numerous other illnesses. Also the words Retina and Cataracts are derived from Arabic, as the Muslims were experts in Ophthalmology.


The Health Service of the Islaamic State


Before Islaam there were no hospitals, as we would see today, there were places for the sick to stay, but these were mainly temples cared for by priests with 'God' playing a major role in healing people. The Islaamic State was responsible for the formation of such institutes as the hospital. There were far more hospitals in the Islaamic Empire than in Europe itself. At one time, in Baghdad there were 60 hospitals while in London there was just one. The hospitals were multifunctional, they were not just used to treat the ill but there were also departments and theatres where medical students could attend lectures. Also hospitals under the Islaamic State were used as nursing homes to look after the old especially if they had no families and to look after the insane who also had no one to care for them.

All the hospitals in Islaamic lands were financed by the Bait ul-Maal, the treasury of the Khilaafah, and the services were provided free of charge to all citizens irrespective of race, colour or creed.


Characteristic features of Hospitals in the Islaamic State

The hospitals consisted of separate wards and separate nurses. Segregation between the sexes was strictly observed as this is ordered by the Sharee'ah. Also different types of diseases extremely infectious ones, in particular were allocated to different wards to avoid cross contamination etc. Pregnant women did not have the worry about foreign men walking into the labour rooms and violating their honour, unnecessary internal check-ups were not done and there was no issues of having to take your husband into the hospital with you out of the fear that a male doctor would be present or that even the female nurses and doctors could not be trusted.

The Khilaafah was the first State in history to keep detailed records of its patients and the medical care they were receiving. Keeping the records detailed, organised and concise was taken with great seriousness therefore a strong administration was a regular operation within the hospital.

Pharmacy had developed to an outstanding degree with new drugs and compounds being developed. The Khilaafah had access to numerous resources as it was ruling over two thirds of the civilised world. Chemistry became an advanced science and one of its founders was Jaabir bin Hayan. He discovered Evaporation and Crystallisation as well as being the first to classify substances into animal, vegetable and mineral.

All the hospitals in the Muslim world were models for medieval hospitals built later in Europe. They became international centres for medical studies and sciences where those seeking advanced medical knowledge from the East or West would travel to learn.
_________________
The Muslim Ummah is an unique Ummah among the whole of mankind.
Thier Land is One.Their War is One.Their Peace is One.Their Honour is One.And Thier Trust is One.
Muhammad (Peace and Blessing be Upon Him)
[Narrated by Ahmed]



Contributions to medicine by Muslim women


Throughout history and at the time or prophet Muhammad (saw) in particular, one can discover examples of great stateswomen who made vital contributions to medicine and the health service motivated by their concern for the affairs of the people. The Sharee'ah obliges the Muslims to have great concern for the Ummah in all spheres of life. Thus the pursuit of scientific knowledge in Islaamic history was considered an act of worship to Allaah (swt). The following are examples of some of these women.


Rufaidah bint Sa'd

Rufaidah bint Sa'd also known as Rufaidah Aslamiyyah was the first professional nurse in the Islaamic history. She lived at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) in the 1st century AH/8th century CE. Rufaidah's father was also a great physician, from whom she learnt most of her medical knowledge from by working as his assistant. She was kind, empathetic and a capable leader and organiser. With all the clinical skills she had she trained other nurses and worked very closely with them. Also she did not limit her profound skills to public health but she also approached society as a social worker helping to solve the social problems that lead to disease. She also came to the assistance of other Muslims in need, who were poor, orphans, or handicapped. She looked after the orphans, nursed them, and taught them general skills of life.

Over time Rufaidah Aslamiyyah became an expert in medicine and surgery. When the Islaamic state was well established in Madeenah, Rufaidah devoted herself to nursing the Muslims who were sick. Over time she set up a tent outside the Prophet's mosque in Madeenah where she tended to the ill who come to for help. During the time of war she led groups of volunteer nurses who went to the battlefield and treated the casualties. At the battle of the trench ( Ghazwat al-Khandaq), Rufaidah set up her hospital tent. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) instructed that Sa'd bin Mu'aadh who had been injured in battle be moved to the tent. Rufaidah nursed him, carefully removed the arrow from his forearm and achieved haemostasis.

Other battles she participated in were the battles of Badr, U hud, Khandaq, Khaybar, and others. Rufaidah's field hospital tent became very famous during the battles and the Prophet (saw) used to pass order for all the casualties to be carried to her tent so that she may treat them with her medical expertise.


Other women experts during the time of the Prophet (saw)


The Companion ash-Shifaa bint Abdullaah al-Qurashiyah al-Adawiyah was one of the wisest women of her time. Her real name may have been Laylaa. Ash- Shifaa is a title derived from her profession as a medicine woman, it meant, healing. She was literate in an illiterate age, she was also skilled in medicine, involved in public administration, and had a strong presence in early Muslim history. She used to conduct preventative treatments against ant bites before the advent of Islaam. After Hijrah, she approached the Prophet (saw) and said, "Oh Messenger of Allaah, I used to do preventative medicine for ant bites during Jaahiliyyah, and I want to demonstrate it for you." He (saw) said, "Demonstrate it." Ash- Shifaa said: "So I demonstrated it for him, and he said '[continue to] do this, and teach it to Hafsah [a wife of the Prophet].' She apparently taught Hafsah, and many others, she also taught them to read and write, at the personal request of the Prophet

Other women experts in the time of the Prophet (saw) in medicine and surgery were Umm Muta', Umm Kabashah, Hamnah bint Jahsh, Mu'adhah, Laylaa, Umaimah, Umm Zaid, Umm 'Atiyyah, and Umm Sulaym. They were all great women with superb knowledge and skills in the arena of medicine, teaching, surgery etc. There skills and expertise helped the Ummah of Muhammad (saw) immensely throughout history.


Course of history

Over time Muslim women have contributed greatly to the field of health and medicine taking roles as, midwives, specialising on female anatomy and physiology, aiding in the development of cosmetics, perfumes, ointments and medicines for all parts of the body; constructing scientific instruments and contributing enormously to society as social workers. Unfortunately after the destruction of the Islaamic state in 1924 societies became contaminated by the non-Islaamic way of life, with kufr, shirk and bid'ah. Even the Muslim countries were eventually ruled by Taaghout rulers who aided in the people forgetting their Islaamic heritage, of all the greatness the Khilaafah contributed to the world. These situation hindered Muslim women with regards to the field of science and many of the professions and skills which they acquired.

Islaam encouraged women to apply their minds and discover what Allaah (swt) has created for the benefit of mankind on the basis of being in a continuous state of concern about the affairs of the people. However now a days our realities are different. No longer is the moral idea of segregation observed, subjects are no longer taught from an Islaamic angle and kufr concepts are indoctrinated into the people.

We as Muslim women today have great examples or role models to follow (above are only a few examples of many). It is unfortunate that the Khilaafah has become the figment of ones imagination, so much so that Muslims take the Kufr state and society as their example. Why should we do this when we ourselves are the ones that formed history and a base for the rest of the world to follow? Islaam gave women the dignity, honour and importance of being mothers, daa'ies, wives, daughters, stateswomen and even pioneers of the medicine world. Islaam had elevated the Muslim women in all arenas of life and each role has extremely important duties to full fill to please only Allaah (swt) and not anyone else.

Allaah (swt) did not instruct us to go out to kufr education institutions to become these great women by participating in free-mixing, socialising between sexes, being in a room were Allaah (swt) and the religion of Muhammad (saw) is condemned and is looked upon as minor or insignificant. And neither did he instruct us to learn subjects from the angle of the non-Muslims, to not stand up for the honour and rights of the Creator when it is attacked by the secularists and atheist, the Mushrikeen and the Faasiqs! Unfortunately there are no Islaamic environments where we can go to acquire the positions the great Muslim women of history had once done until the Khilaafah State returns and brings back the wonders it once left behind.

_________________

http://londonmetisoc.com/forum/viewt...e6c0465877e301

Instead of coming down hard on you, I should thank you, for exposing what ails some members of this umma..
May Allah grant us shifa from all that ails us, especially diseases of ignorance!

:w:
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Whilst Europe was (and still is) stuck in the Dark Ages,
What do you mean by this?
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 12:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What do you mean by this?
If you want to start a separate topic on what ails Europe from an Islamic perspective we can do that on another thread --

thanks
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 12:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
If you want to start a separate topic on what ails Europe from an Islamic perspective we can do that on another thread --

thanks
I don't, I just don't see the point in incorporating political and theological disputes you have with Europe into an article about science and medicine.
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't, I just don't see the point in incorporating political and theological disputes you have with Europe into an article about science and medicine.
I suppose in that case you may take your grievances to the owner of that website? I am sure you can see that I wasn't the one who wrote the article and have included the link so it will be easily accessible otherwise?



cheers
Reply

Trumble
01-03-2009, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
You may have never heard that mental illness is false because people do not like to discuss this matter...
To be fair ahki there is currently no proof to prove that mental illness for mental disorders are real regarding chemical imbalances in what not.. I cannot say as of yet that they are lies and metaphors because there is no proof on both sides.. One side is saying it is true while the other is saying is not.. The only thing side b can do is tell side a to prove it.. Until side a proves it side b has a valid opinion that mental illness is not true because it has no proof....

This is clearly differing from sciences like medical disorders such as cancer where lab test can prove its existence.. The same cannot be said for mental illness... There are no lab tests that confirms its validity even yet and still people are treated for a disorder that cannot be proved or seen.....
I'm obviously not a muslim (nor am I a psychologist or psychiatrist), but if you will forgive me..

You seem to be making an assumption here that all mental illness is associated with, if not identical with, physical disorders (which surely a 'chemical imbalance' must be?) For all I know some may well be but surely there is no requirement for that? Why should 'proof' needed to demonstrate the existence of mental illness be any different from the proof needed to demonstrate other purely mental phenomena such as, for example, intelligence (even if such phenomena should ultimately be reducible to the purely physical). There is no direct lab test for intelligence, we judge it by observations of behaviour tracing behaviour back, as it were, to its mental source - but nobody denies intelligence exists, and to varying degrees. Why should mental illness be any different?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-03-2009, 12:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I suppose in that case you may take your grievances to the owner of that website? I am sure you can see that I wasn't the one who wrote the article and have included the link so it will be easily accessible otherwise?



cheers
Sorry for that. I thought you wrote the intro.
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 12:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Sorry for that. I thought you wrote the intro.
No just this much is my contribution

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
more on the subject
......................
_________________

http://londonmetisoc.com/forum/viewt...e6c0465877e301

and

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

Instead of coming down hard on you, I should thank you, for exposing what ails some members of this umma..
May Allah grant us shifa from all that ails us, especially diseases of ignorance!

:w:
Reply

Tariqa
01-03-2009, 12:25 AM
you totally missed the point.. you went off on a spur about muslim doctors.. I never denied there being muslim soctors.. i specifically said that it is not the sunnah to use doctors.. The prophet never accepted the help of doctors for himself nor did he forbid it.. He himeself did not rely on a doctor.. You keep going off aobout doctor this doctor that but the prophet himself did not use doctors for himself.. did you miss this point??

Why are you so proud of medicine and its acheivments when this has little to do with the sunnah.. Why are you not qouting from some religous acheivements.. Something that the prophet actually condoned.,..like religous knowledge or polital advantage(somthing muslims obviosuly is not excelling at).. how about dominion, how about being the most healthy so that we dont need doctors..how about most prolific in childre as is the sunnah to have many offsprings.. or did the modern advancements of birth control reduce this as well? How about the acheivement ofthings that are related to the sunnah, things the prophet condoned hisself... things he did..This is like qoting from an advancement in onions and garlic acheivments, it is not somthing the prophet did meaning it is not sunnah to take for oneself..

the prophet did not even himself take medicine and prohibited from anyone to pour it in anothers mouth, unlike the doctors forcinbg pateints to take medicine after they decline.. isnt this clearly agasint the sunnah??
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 12:27 AM
FYI.. this is health and science section.. if you wished to discuss ahadith, fiqh, righteous people do it in the appropriatly delegated section? Or is this your spin to save face?
pls give it up, I am tired of your ignorance your antics and your tangents! just take a leave of absence come back with a different screen name and we'll pretend this never happened!

:w:
Reply

Tariqa
01-03-2009, 12:29 AM
i guess insted of answering my question it must be easier for you to just get emotional..understood..

to the miss quoting about intellegence and mental illness.. this is not the same thing...mental illness cannot be proven.. not even through behavoir..
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
i guess insted of answering my question
Judging by your grammar, your poor insights, your total lack of knowledge of Islam and science , your inability to reflect on the wisdom of other members, all who have painstakingly slaved to help you transition to the road of common sense, I am not a bit surprised that you are incapable of apprehending what exactly goes into making a 'question'.. further, I don't really think you are interested in the multitudes of websites and feedback given you by other Muslims, our affairs are a shura amongst ourselves, if you don't partake in that, you are not one of us--simple!-- perhaps you enjoy standing in the jungle and pounding on your chest extra hard?
it must be easier for you to just get emotional..understood..
That is an incredibly wise reflection of self.. perhaps you should mull over why such a statement echoed from your keyboard..(psychiatry) would deem it an immature defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone else!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb :smile:
Reply

Tariqa
01-03-2009, 01:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Judging by your grammar, your poor insights, your total lack of knowledge of Islam and science , your inability to reflect on the wisdom of other members, all who have painstakingly slaved to help you transition to the road of common sense, I am not a bit surprised that you are incapable of apprehending what exactly goes into making a 'question'.. further, I don't really think you are interested in the multitudes of websites and feedback given you by other Muslims, our affairs are a shura amongst ourselves, if you don't partake in that, you are not one of us--simple!-- perhaps you enjoy standing in the jungle and pounding on your chest extra hard?


That is an incredibly wise reflection of self.. perhaps you should mull over why such a statement echoed from your keyboard..(psychiatry) would deem it an immature defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone else!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb :smile:


i do not know what else to say.. you say we are a shura.. but i think i have some knowledge many of you do not..

I ask you a few simple questions about medicine.. Being that medicine is not somthing the prophet did himslef, do you not say taking the aid of a doctor is not sunnah or somthing the prophet did not do himself.. isnt it better to do what the prophet did and obstain from what he abstained from?


i understand if you would like to give up on this subject but just remmeber the people around the clock who are dying, we need answers, we need truth..
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
i do not know what else to say.. you say we are a shura.. but i think i have some knowledge many of you do not..
You have secret knowledge apparently no one else in the world has!

I ask you a few simple questions about medicine..
and they are?

Being that medicine is not somthing the prophet did himslef, do you not say taking the aid of a doctor is not sunnah or somthing the prophet did not do himself.. isnt it better to do what the prophet did and obstain from what he abstained from?
And I have proven to you that medicine, surgery and hospitals existed as far back as the prophet, many contending that prophet Mohammed himself was the frst physician amongst other things he was. Black seed and Honey wasn't the only herb used during the prophet's time further gone to give you a link of where you can purchase a book on prophetic medicine so you can educate yourself on the matter before yapping here?


i understand if you would like to give up on this subject but just remmeber the people around the clock who are dying, we need answers, we need truth..
Exactly what are your hopes in stopping progress of medicine? Do you not believe in divine decree and that death is something man is meant to endure-- you can't stop cellular aging and dying with medicine, but you can help restore people's lives to normal base line.. type I diabetics didn't survive a hundred yrs ago, and if untreated is rather a deadly disease, thanks to Allah swt for the gift of reason we are now able to utilize E.Coli bacteria to synthesize Insulin, do you want to give Honey to a diabetic and deem it curative? or do you think they deserve to die because they have committed sin, or are you suggesting that they have brought it upon themselves when it can manifest as young as 3 yrs of age? .. al-mawt 3lyna 7aq (death is truth) and every soul shall taste it!

but, Allah swt will ask you of your health on the day of recompense for it too is a gift, whether you discarded it chasing after flowery dreams when aid was available!

I am done with you guy.. go live whatever way you want to live away from us.. A3ooth billah min al jahl, walkasal!

:w:
Reply

Tariqa
01-03-2009, 02:03 AM
And I have proven to you that medicine, surgery and hospitals existed as far back as the prophet, many contending that prophet Mohammed himself was the frst physician amongst other things he was. Black seed and Honey wasn't the only herb used during the prophet's time further gone to give you a link of where you can purchase a book on prophetic medicine so you can educate yourself on the matter before yapping here?
You did not answer my question.. I am not asking did medicine exist back in that time i am asking did the prophet use the help of doctors yes or no??..
Simple question not the question as to did he perform surgery or what not but did he (was he the recepient) take the help of a doctor.. this is a very simple question and it seems you do not know..

Exactly what are your hopes in stopping progress of medicine? Do you not believe in divine decree and that death is something man is meant to endure-- you can't stop cellular aging and dying with medicine, but you can help restore people's lives to normal base line.. type I diabetics didn't survive a hundred yrs ago, and if untreated is rather a deadly disease, thanks to Allah swt for the gift of reason we are now able to utilize E.Coli bacteria to synthesize Insulin, do you want to give Honey to a diabetic and deem it curative? or do you think they deserve to die because they have committed sin, or are you suggesting that they have brought it upon themselves when it can manifest as young as 3 yrs of age? .. al-mawt 3lyna 7aq (death is truth) and every soul shall taste it!
Not stopping the progress but advancing by going back to the sunnah.. We are so chemically altered.. Do we even know the way back..?
Reply

جوري
01-03-2009, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
You did not answer my question.. I am not asking did medicine exist back in that time i am asking did the prophet use the help of doctors yes or no??..
sure he did.. a doctor is someone who gives medical treatment to those who need it, the profession has evolved over time but that is because many quacks (I imagine the likes of you) proclaimed they can cure things which they couldn't and did more harm than good, thus institutions were built to set the standards of medical care-- the basics of medicine hasn't changed, even if there are licensure and proper schooling requirement established since.. You should read about what happened to the prophet after ghazwit uhud for starters or any of the links given you if you can perhaps descend down back to earth to meet with the rest of humanity instead of reveling in conspiracy theories!..
honestly, what is wrong with you?
Simple question not the question as to did he perform surgery or what not but did he (was he the recepient) take the help of a doctor.. this is a very simple question and it seems you do not know..
I have just answered your question see above reply-- again the answer is yes!.. regardless, why are you comparing the rest of humanity with their new diseases to that which might have ailed the prophet himself centuries ago.. Do you honestly have a point?



Not stopping the progress but advancing by going back to the sunnah.. We are so chemically altered.. Do we even know the way back..?
Don't be chemically altered then.. I have seen hypocrites such as yourself, 'Jehovah witnesses', adamant upon not receiving blood transfusions during surgery (which by the way contradictory to your popular belief, medical ethics mandates that you must respect the patient's autonomy and can't force treatment on those who choose to do without) so you ask them to sign a form AMA and inform them that death is imminent, and you'll be surprised how fast they forgo 'Jehovah' for dear life!
Reply

Tariqa
01-03-2009, 07:38 AM
sure he did.. a doctor is someone who gives medical treatment to those who need it, the profession has evolved over time but that is because many quacks (I imagine the likes of you) proclaimed they can cure things which they couldn't and did more harm than good, thus institutions were built to set the standards of medical care-- the basics of medicine hasn't changed, even if there are licensure and proper schooling requirement established since.. You should read about what happened to the prophet after ghazwit uhud for starters or any of the links given you if you can perhaps descend down back to earth to meet with the rest of humanity instead of reveling in conspiracy theories!..
can you give an example....

and if you find any examples beside the cupping incidents, i will give you an example.. do you rememeber when the man came to the prophet and offered him doctors as a gifrt and the prophet(p) declined the gift..If you are familiar with this hadith can do you remember his exact words??

I have just answered your question see above reply-- again the answer is yes!.. regardless, why are you comparing the rest of humanity with their new diseases to that which might have ailed the prophet himself centuries ago.. Do you honestly have a point?
I was of the notion that the prophet did not like medicine in fact when he was sick he repremended those that tried to pour medicine in his mouth.. are you not aware of this..?



Don't be chemically altered then.. I have seen hypocrites such as yourself, 'Jehovah witnesses', adamant upon not receiving blood transfusions during surgery (which by the way contradictory to your popular belief, medical ethics mandates that you must respect the patient's autonomy and can't force treatment on those who choose to do without) so you ask them to sign a form AMA and inform them that death is imminent, and you'll be surprised how fast they forgo 'Jehovah' for dear life!
Miss lets get one thing clear.. people like chemical lifestyles nowadays.. It is there fault that they need transfusions.. Even for little babies this is somthing that they may inherit from the ills of the parents and bad lifestyles through genetics.. If we dont take care of our bodies then this is what we will become, relying on chemical fixes instead of natural ones..

Like the ayat says, the mushirkeen are for the mushrikeen and the believer for the believer, in the same way if you live a chemical lifestlye you will recive a chemcial treatment in medicine, and if you live a natural lifestlye you will recieve a natural healings..

You say we are the healtiest we have been in 200 years?\
So what.. i told you that people lived allot loned 2000 years ago.. 200 years ago people were no different then today, maybe more ignorant or less.. they are no examples to compare to..
Reply

alcurad
01-03-2009, 02:16 PM
the longevity we have nowadays is simply incredible in contrast to humans before us,what role do you think medicine plays in that? the flu killed over twenty million of people at the first quarter of the previous century, the FLU..
this is getting offtrack though, wasn't the discussion about psychology, now it's about chemical or natural?? we're meant to regress to the neolithic era now?
natural medicine is also chemical isn't it..
Reply

Tariqa
01-03-2009, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
the longevity we have nowadays is simply incredible in contrast to humans before us,what role do you think medicine plays in that? the flu killed over twenty million of people at the first quarter of the previous century, the FLU..
this is getting offtrack though, wasn't the discussion about psychology, now it's about chemical or natural?? we're meant to regress to the neolithic era now?
natural medicine is also chemical isn't it..
No this conversation is about medicine in genral conventional methods, doctors, forms of medical treatment.. which happens to accomdate mental illness..

I keep trying to tell the people that people in the times of the prophets such as prophet musa(a) they used to live hundreds of years longer than us...
just because we are doing better then 1776 does not mean we are doning better that 776 or even 76 or 7666bc... these people were allot healthier than we are today.. 200 years is not enough to judge how good are medicines are when the people before us proved for thousands of years that they could maintain good health...

yes natural medicine is chemical its not about natural or non matural its about artifical vs authentic.. the medicine should be kept in its most purest form without any man made processing.. when the chemicals of a natural source is processed this is where the complacations set in...
Reply

Trumble
01-03-2009, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
I keep trying to tell the people that people in the times of the prophets such as prophet musa(a) they used to live hundreds of years longer than us...
You do indeed, but I don't think anybody except you actually believes it. There is no evidence to support such a contention. I wasn't aware the Islamic tradition assigned Moses a lifespan above 100 years or so (?), and the OT only credits him reaching 120. For the general population the average lifespan was far less than it is now... and any benefit from being chemical-free was more than outweighed by disease, malnutrition and the general brutality experienced living in those times.
Reply

doorster
01-03-2009, 03:08 PM
I wasn't aware the Islamic tradition assigned .....
I believe him to be either a fraud or an imbecile because he refuses to answer questions put to him instead he rambles on and on, making claims about xyz is Islamic without being willing or able to back it up (other than saying (anonymous) scholars said), which is against the site rules.

18. Do not say "Islam says X" unless your position is based upon sound evidence - which means the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Always cite your sources (i.e. what page of which book).
Reply

Tariqa
01-03-2009, 09:48 PM
how about the prophet ad or naoh (a) they suerely did
Reply

doorster
01-04-2009, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
how about the prophet ad or naoh (a) they suerely did
what? what did you just say?
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 02:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
can you give an example....

and if you find any examples beside the cupping incidents, i will give you an example.. do you rememeber when the man came to the prophet and offered him doctors as a gifrt and the prophet(p) declined the gift..If you are familiar with this hadith can do you remember his exact words??
If you have a hadith to share by all means do. especially one that forbids progress.. I am not going to do your home work for you!

But I will share this hadith

The Prophet (SAW) said, "For any disease there is a cure, and when the cure matches the disease, the person recovers, by the will of Allah..."

I was of the notion that the prophet did not like medicine in fact when he was sick he repremended those that tried to pour medicine in his mouth.. are you not aware of this..?
Again, if you have a hadith, as I myself have done above then pls do share ..further--

the opinion of Imam Bukhari, realized the importance of the art of medicine as a means to preserve health and restore it, if one falls into illness, into the normal condition. Following the idea of Imam Bukhari, the majority of the Sunni legal schools accept the use of medicines because it does not deny the belief of God’s destiny (al-tadawi la yunafi al-tawakkal).[2] For this reason, Ibn Hajr (773–852/1372-1449), the author of Fath al-Bari, advised a patient to seek relief and healing from any physical or mental ailment by means of medical assistance and treatment; and not only by putting one’s trust in God’s power and mercy. This interpretation was essentially a distraction from the ahadith, although in many cases the Prophet (s.a.w) did not provide specific drugs for certain treatment. However, we are responsible to find its cure because Allah (s.a.w) mercifully provides cures for all illnesses except death and old age. Imam Bukhari reported the hadith of the Prophet (s.a.w): “for every disease there is a remedy, and when the remedy is made apparent, then the disease is cured by the permission of Allah, the Almighty.” Connecting to this hadith, Imam Bukhari reported that Abu Hurayrah narrated the hadith of the Prophet: “Allah has not created any disease without also creating a medicine or a remedy for it (ma anzala Allah da’ illa anzala lahu shifa’).”[3]


source
Umdah al-Qari Sharh Sahih Bukhari by Badr al-Din `Ayni (762-855/1361-1452), 25 vols. (Beirut: Dar Ihya’ al-turath al-`Arabi, n.d); Fath al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih Bukhari by Ibn Hajr al-`Asqalani (773–852/1372-1449), 13 vols. (Beirut: Dar al-kutub al-`ilmiyyah, 1989).

Miss lets get one thing clear.. people like chemical lifestyles nowadays.. It is there fault that they need transfusions.. Even for little babies this is somthing that they may inherit from the ills of the parents and bad lifestyles through genetics.. If we dont take care of our bodies then this is what we will become, relying on chemical fixes instead of natural ones..
Far it be from me to wish disease upon you or yours, so you'd get an understanding of what it means to be sick and need cure.. instead I pray that Allah swt bestows upon you a discerning brain and fast! -- you only embarrass yourself and do Islam and humanity a great disservice every time you open your mouth or fiddle with your keyboard to eject nonsense
Like the ayat says, the mushirkeen are for the mushrikeen and the believer for the believer, in the same way if you live a chemical lifestlye you will recive a chemcial treatment in medicine, and if you live a natural lifestlye you will recieve a natural healings..
I love your interpretation of Quranic verses to suit your ends oh great mullah

You say we are the healtiest we have been in 200 years?\
So what.. i told you that people lived allot loned 2000 years ago.. 200 years ago people were no different then today, maybe more ignorant or less.. they are no examples to compare to..
And I asked you if from the time of the prophet and since if anyone lived to such numbers? Did the prophet himself live to be a hundred? or two hundred or 1000?
Reply

Tariqa
01-04-2009, 02:55 AM
]If you have a hadith to share by all means do. especially one that forbids progress.. I am not going to do your home work for you!
The hadith is the hadith where the man of another land casme to him and offered him doctors for his city. The prophet replied that we are a people that only eat when we get hungry and we have no need for doctors.. The prophet himself declined the gift of doctors for his ummah which signifies that your health is better taken care of by yourself and not depended on others such as doctors...

But I will share this hadith

The Prophet (SAW) said, "For any disease there is a cure, and when the cure matches the disease, the person recovers, by the will of Allah..."
How about black seed is cure for every disease except death.. Surely this is true and and bad cases we do not need blood transfusions when there is black seed. Are you saying this hadith is outdated and the prophet is a liar...








And I asked you if from the time of the prophet and since if anyone lived to such numbers? Did the prophet himself live to be a hundred? or two hundred or 1000?
[/QUOTE]
the prophet had said that every generation has a life span and his life span was to about 60 years of age... no they did not live for long periods of time but the people before him did..If we are living longer than his time does that make it wrong...? Is it not the sunnah to die young??
Reply

doorster
01-04-2009, 03:41 AM
<snip> are you taking the mick? do you thrive on people suffering? blackseed cures every disease and sickness? why is it not doing you any good by curing your insanity and/or lust to see/cause suffering through plagues of disease?
Reply

جوري
01-04-2009, 03:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
The hadith is the hadith where the man of another land casme to him and offered him doctors for his city. The prophet replied that we are a people that only eat when we get hungry and we have no need for doctors.. The prophet himself declined the gift of doctors for his ummah which signifies that your health is better taken care of by yourself and not depended on others such as doctors...
I need a reference for the hadith with isnad.
Thank you!

How about black seed is cure for every disease except death.. Surely this is true and and bad cases we do not need blood transfusions when there is black seed. Are you saying this hadith is outdated and the prophet is a liar...
Actually it is you who is a liar and a charlatan. I have presented my case with sources.. all we have to go on is your crap..
Your crap against well documented sources..hmm wonder which to choose?






the prophet had said that every generation has a life span and his life span was to about 60 years of age... no they did not live for long periods of time but the people before him did..If we are living longer than his time does that make it wrong...? Is it not the sunnah to die young??
You keep contradicting yourself.. do you not see what you write? on one post you speak of living to a hundred, even a thousand, on the next you speak of dying young.. which would you like to derange to suit your fancy?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-04-2009, 04:32 AM
Not everything in psychology is correct but u cant debunk EVERYTHING all together.

Ok didnt Muslims, at the time when Islam was at its peak, TREAT such things?? How can you not cure something when there is problem with someone...or try at least.

There are differences of psychology of people in general, so u think the chances of it being imbalanced is null?

What about psychotic killers? u think they are normal, going on a rampage assaulting people? u dont think there is something mentally wrong with such people?

People with bipolar, skitzophrenia ADHD etc...u think they are doing all this for fun?

If science in general is wrong to u, as ur claiming with the hadith if im not mistaken(without reference), would ISLAM have been at its peak, exalting the world?


JUST out of curiousity...
Reply

Tariqa
01-04-2009, 06:15 AM
What about psychotic killers? u think they are normal, going on a rampage assaulting people? u dont think there is something mentally wrong with such people?
No they are evil.. they are spirtually corrupt. It is sad that the west makes excuses for the evil souls by saying they are not evil, they are just diseased..

People with bipolar, skitzophrenia ADHD etc...u think they are doing all this for fun?
What is bi polar and adhd?? where is your proof that these diseases exists?

If science in general is wrong to u, as ur claiming with the hadith if im not mistaken(without reference), would ISLAM have been at its peak, exalting the world?
Whos claiming scieince is wrong..??
Reply

doorster
01-04-2009, 09:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
No they are evil.. they are spirtually corrupt. It is sad that the west makes excuses for the evil souls by saying they are not evil, they are just diseased..


What is bi polar and adhd?? where is your proof that these diseases exists?


Whos claiming scieince is wrong..??
tell me one last thing o mullah, if a person you judge to be "evil.. spirtually corrupt" whom I call insane, should they be punished for their crimes or hospitalised?

and I do hope that LIStaff take note of your next reply
Reply

Tariqa
01-04-2009, 10:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
tell me one last thing o mullah, if a person you judge to be "evil.. spirtually corrupt" whom I call insane, should they be punished for their crimes or hospitalised?

and I do hope that LIStaff take note of your next reply
if they are truely insane then they are too be judged under the laws of insanity.. thats that..we are not talking about insanity we are talking about mental illness. It is a shame that many of you confuse mental illness with insanity.. they are 2 different things If you give medicine to a insane person it could kill him if you have no proof that there is a chemical imbalance that needs to be corrected.. Its like trying to stab at a object in the dark.. You dont know what you aiming at or if there is any object actually there.. you can stab the wall or even yourself and comitt suicide.. They have no proof and if you diaognose a man with mental illness when they are only insane, this in islam is only a misdiagnoses a false judgement.. If it is commited repeadtly as it is today allah could greatly punish these judges for the wrong doings and deaths associated with their organizations...
Reply

Wyatt
01-04-2009, 11:12 AM
If you don't believe there's any evidence that there are mental illnesses, what's going on in panic attacks, depression, phobias, post-traumatic stress disorder?

Are you saying that because we can't see the chemical imbalances, that they do not exist?

If you're that kind of person, then why would you believe in Allah?

How would you explain tics? Do you believe that they are lying when people with tourette syndrome have these?

The way alcohol works is that it blocks off neurons in the brain from receiving any signals, thus a chemical imbalance, right?

Why would it be bad for a muslim to study their own species through sciences such as psychology? Does Allah not encourage it?
Reply

doorster
01-04-2009, 11:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tariqa
if they are truely insane then they are too be judged under the laws of insanity.. thats that..we are not talking about insanity we are talking about mental illness. It is a shame that many of you confuse mental illness with insanity.. they are 2 different things If you give medicine to a insane person it could kill him if you have no proof that there is a chemical imbalance that needs to be corrected.. Its like trying to stab at a object in the dark.. You dont know what you aiming at or if there is any object actually there.. you can stab the wall or even yourself and comitt suicide.. They have no proof and if you diaognose a man with mental illness when they are only insane, this in islam is only a misdiagnoses a false judgement.. If it is commited repeadtly as it is today allah could greatly punish these judges for the wrong doings and deaths associated with their organizations...
okay, insanity is not a metal illness? hm.. thank you o learned one, is it posession by evil jinn or may be a spell from bad old magicians?

instead of admitting them to evil western hospital, should we either burn them at stake or get an exorcist who then will drag them by the hair and beat the evil out of them?
you diaognose a man with mental illness when they are only insane,
ROFL
Traditionally, insanity or madness is the behaviour whereby a person flouts societal norms and may become a danger to themselves and others. Greek tragedies and Shakespeare often refer to madness in this sense. Psychologically, it is a general, popular and legal term defining behaviour influenced by mental instability. In modern usage, it is most commonly encountered as an informal, unscientific term, or in the narrow legal context of the insanity defence. In the medical profession the term is now avoided in favour of more specific diagnoses of mental illness such as schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. When discussing mental illness in general terms, "psychopathology" is also considered a preferred descriptor.
Reply

aamirsaab
01-04-2009, 12:16 PM
:sl:
18. Do not say "Islam says X" unless your position is based upon sound evidence - which means the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Always cite your sources (i.e. what page of which book).

LI forum Rules


Locking this thread because Tariqa still hasn't given ANY backing for his statements. If and when you do have it ready, pm me with them and I'll re-open this thread.

In future, have your references ready and in the post - it shows good academic practice and does reflect a level of credibility behind your statements.
Reply

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