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Tariqa
12-28-2008, 02:21 AM
What is the excuse for Muslims that live in non-Muslims lands and have the means to leave?? What is the excuse for a Muslim to move to a non Muslim land and avoid moving to a land of Muslims??

Muslim staying in non-Muslim lands

Any Muslim that is born or residing in a non-Muslim land, what gives him the excuse to reside among corruption..??
After a man has the means to leave why does he not leave??
Is it the fact that Muslims become fat and lazy after leaving or living in a fattening environment and have no motive or are too comfortable to go??
Do the Muslims find it permissible at all in the least to live among musriks and disbeliever in the least bit???


How about the Muslims that leave their homelands to go to a non-Muslim state?? What is their excuse?? How rare is it that a man in his homeland would be oppressed in his homeland for Islam.. You hear that excuse often but how true is it that a man is being oppressed and the only land he can leave to is a country of even more evils and ill as their are no lands of Muslims to escape to?? How many use the excuse that their is no work in their lands only to relocate to a land of spiritual poverty where work is non existent for a Muslims but is wealthy in evils and immorality...?? How could these same so called Muslims make this excuse in the least??
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Malaikah
12-28-2008, 06:32 AM
We don't need an excuse. Living in non-Muslim lands is permissible.

The corruption argument isn't strong either. The middle east is FULL of corruption.
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BlissfullyJaded
12-28-2008, 06:41 AM
:sl:

Out of curiosity, where do you live?

I don't have regrets about living in the West. We all do what is within our means to do and to make it seem like all Muslims in the West aren't doing much but just lazing around leading comfortable lives is an absurd generalization. Muslims tend to be well educated and yes in the upper middle class or even upper class, but chances are, their being here is helping less well of family members back in their home countries. Some do have the means to move back home, but for whatever reasons they have they can't just pack up and go back.

And it is valid reason, not an excuse, that finding work in many Muslim countries is difficult.
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Tariqa
12-28-2008, 03:35 PM
well we all know that a person who is so unqualified to make a statement such as it is permissible to live in Muslims lands should not speak... Is this even a question for Muslims? Tell what makes living in a non Muslim land permissible?? tell me do you see the majority of Muslims practicing this permission..?? Do they apply for this permission.. In what can you just come out and say that living in the non Muslim countries are permissible..??? In what way?? Do you think it is permissible for a Muslim to live around corruption from shirk to music, to fornication to murder??? Where do you find in Islam that this acceptable for a Muslim to endure in what way???? You shall have no proof so what would possibly make you utter such words without knowledge....



How could you say that Muslims living in non Muslim lands are helping Muslims back home??? Tell how are they helping the Muslims back home with money?? How do you think any of these Muslims in non Muslim countries make "Muslim" money?? They are obviously making non Muslim dollars in non Muslim lands.. But how?? Permissible incomes or impermissible....???

No the Muslims may not be lazying it up but do you see any of the Muslims rallying together, organizing many minority Muslims to be a voice, a means to get to a Muslim country???? Many of the Muslims think of leaving to a Muslim land as "something nice" something they would like to do... The Muslim in these non Muslim countries are making no effort to leave their home or new lands??? Nothing above and beyond.. They are sort of waiting for a chance to leave, do you see any who's actually fighting to live among the ummah????

Difficult is not an excuse.. We are to fight difficulty not just accept our miserable states..
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Woodrow
12-28-2008, 04:00 PM
My question:

What constitutes a Muslim Country?

I have lived in quite a few different countries several in the Mideast. I have yet to find any that could be considered Muslim countries. However I have found some excellent Islamic Cities. Makkah, and Medinah of course, but even Medinah has some enclaves within it that do not live up to Islamic standards.

Overall the most Islamic City I have visited is Fez, Morocco, also known as the "City of the never ending Masjid". Dearborn, Michigan is possibly the most Islamic City in the Western world. Austin, Dallas and Houston Texas have some very Islamic communities within them.

So does a true Islamic country exist anyplace, or is it there are enclaves of Islamic cities scattered throughout the world? I think it may be better to live in an Islamic City, even if it is not in an Islamic country, than to live in an non-Islamic city in an alleged Islamic country. Some of the least Islamic cities I know are in Islamic countries, Casablanca, Riyadh, Alexandria, Tehran for example.

In the original posters opinion, what countries do you believe are Islamic?
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north_malaysian
12-28-2008, 04:06 PM
How about 1,000,000 Israeli citizens who are Muslims?

I think, leaving "Israel" is bad for them...as Zionists would occupy their houses and lands and give it to the settlers .. right?
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
How about 1,000,000 Israeli citizens who are Muslims?

I think, leaving "Israel" is bad for them...as Zionists would occupy their houses and lands and give it to the settlers .. right?
A few days ago the foreign secretary Tzipi Livni stated between the lines that they will be deported once the Palestinian state has been formed, saying the solution for Israeli Arabs lies outside Israel...:-[
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Umar001
12-28-2008, 04:14 PM
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

The key part is, having the means.

I don't think anyone is so naive so as to miss the problems living in a non-Islamic country can bring, especially if the family is not that practicing, we see it in the U.K. in varying forms, you have

those who have totally lost Islaam, others who have partially lost it and are conforming to the way of the society,

then those who are culturally Muslim who are retaining some aspects of Islam due to their culture

and then those who want to become really practicing but due to the society find it easier to be doing bad,

then you have the practicing people who are ok but could be doing better.


Roughly speaking that is somewhat some of the ways people are. A lot of their problems could be solved if they lived in an Islamic place, though some of the above don't even want that, due to their socialisation with guys who don't have the same moral standards!

The question though does arise, where can people go, even if they had money to move?


Note: for those saying it is permissible, can you state if there are conditions or not, is it permissible for everyone or some and all times or not?

br.al-Habeshi
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KittyKat
12-28-2008, 04:17 PM
One could argue that a Muslim living in a non-Muslim land is setting the example for others to come to and find Allah.

Just my 2 scents.

Peace.
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Amadeus85
12-28-2008, 04:18 PM
When I talked with a few people from Maghreb all of them wanted to move to France, Holland or UK.
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north_malaysian
12-28-2008, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A few days ago the foreign secretary Tzipi Livni stated between the lines that they will be deported once the Palestinian state has been formed, saying the solution for Israeli Arabs lies outside Israel...:-[
Imagine if the European leaders telling the same thing to their Jewish citizens... that as Israel already being formed and they should be deported to Israel....

It would be "Anti-semitic!!!"
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Tariqa
12-28-2008, 04:39 PM
To answer the question of the first ...this is a good question..but...we hear it too often..as if..people are ignorant to what an "islamic land" is.

The truth is that when we say muslim we mean a majority populated land or a land where muslims run the governing system even if they are failing short, a bad muslim is better than the best musrik kufr indeed... No there is no perfect soceity today but we can at least make the best of the worst situation and non muslims that offer freedom do not offer islamic freedom it is only a decpetion and those same muslims are ven moreso oppresed though they know not...


We must make the best out of a bad situation and choose what is better and in our cases living with "bad muslims" is a lesser evil...
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Tariqa
12-28-2008, 04:44 PM
sorry to answer the question about the money issue.... yes it is true we have to find places to go..there are places that exsit or even if we cannot find thew best muslim lands to go to we can find better lands to go to then non muslim majority lands... I think that many muslims think about one particular land and then immediatly judge all other lands based off of the perception of the former.. this is a weak mentality...we must continue to strive and strive hard and one door closes continue to find other ways in.. It can be done if the muslims continue to search and not give up using the mentality that there is nowhere to go or we have so many problems.. cant is not a word right??? We can!




We can set the example of finding in allah in the lands allah has made sacred rather can we not indeed??
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S_87
12-28-2008, 05:24 PM
how many muslim lands are willing to accept muslims that are not of their nationality?
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Woodrow
12-28-2008, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by amani
how many muslim lands are willing to accept muslims that are not of their nationality?
Although that is very unIslamic, it is the Truth. Although Muslims are very welcome as tourist, visitors or students, there is much reluctance to accept non-native Muslims as residents. in many countries. Some that I have found that give the cold shoulder to non-native Muslims are Iran, UAE, Saudi, Somalia, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt. Although the people are very nice and very helpful, there are barriers put up in terms of marriage, language, employment, housing. I have never tried to live in Pakistan, so I do not know., But I do not know of any Pakistan citizens that are not of Asian or Indian Ancestry. It is hard to get by in Pakistan if you do not speak Urdu, Farsi or Bangli.
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Tariqa
12-28-2008, 11:21 PM
Ok well this is the attitude us muslims should be disscussing how we can find a muslim land to go to before we just say there is no way or it is not fard...


Yes it is true that it is dificult to find a land that is willing to accept foreniers but it is on us muslims to fight this injustice.. We have to want a muslim land like we want our lives.. We have to search for better situations.. Im sure their are many lands closer to the heart of the umah that can at least get us one step closer but some muslims are on the other side of the world, so far away form out destination how would we get there if we keep traveling further away??? There is a way and if we cant get the best situation now then at least we can settle in a land closer to the best until we keep trying to get in to the best land and succeed....It is possible and there are lands if we keep trying and keep pushing..we can do it, and we can make it inshallalh...
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Malaikah
12-29-2008, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
well we all know that a person who is so unqualified to make a statement such as it is permissible to live in Muslims lands should not speak...
lol, who said I was making it up?
Is this even a question for Muslims?
For the millions of Muslim living in non-Muslim lands, yes, it's a very important question.

Tell what makes living in a non Muslim land permissible?? tell me do you see the majority of Muslims practicing this permission..??
Why should they?? Just because living in non-Muslims lands is halal doesn't mean everyone has to pack their bags and leave!

Do you think it is permissible for a Muslim to live around corruption from shirk to music, to fornication to murder???
Are you telling me that Muslim lands are filled with these things? Been to Dubai lately? Ever watched a Lebanese TV channel? Seen the corruption happening in Egypt?? Muslim countries are not perfect or free of sin, at all.

Where do you find in Islam that this acceptable for a Muslim to endure in what way???? You shall have no proof so what would possibly make you utter such words without knowledge....
I'm, not speaking without knowledge. Believe it or not, the opinion you follow is not the only opinion out there. Many scholars are of the opinion that it is permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands as long as they are able to practise their religion.

The proofs? I'm not a scholar, but here is a very summarised version of some of the proofs mentioned by those many scholars who consider it permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands:

1. When the Muslims were persecuted in Makkah, the Prophet phub sent a large number of them to live in Ethiopia, a land ruled by a Christian king.

2. When the Prophet pbuh moved to Madinah and established an actual Islamic state*, he never sent any messengers to tell the Muslim living in Ethiopia to comeback to Madinah, even though it was safe for them to come back.


What does that tell us? That it is permissible to live in the lands of non-Muslims, even if there is an Islamic state.

(*note: not just a country where lots of Muslim live, which is what the Muslim lands are today!)

Anyway, putting that aside, even if it is haram, it would be impossible to transport millions of Muslims that are living in non-Muslims lands to Muslims lands! Try finding a country that will take them all in the first place!
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Woodrow
12-29-2008, 02:12 AM
What about Islamic cities or provinces within non-Islamic Nations. The Chinese Muslims have been living in Chinese cities almost since the time of the Prophet(PBUH), they were among the earliest of Muslims, some of the oldest Masjids are in China. The Niujie Masjid in Bejing was built in 996, Islam has been in China since at least the year 650 CE or about the year 20 in the Islamic Calender, yet China is not an Islamic Nation. Would you consider them as being in a Non-Muslim land and should migrate to a Muslim Country?

Islam grows by forming Islamic enclaves within non-Muslim lands. the Enclaves become Islamic, while the country they are within remains non-Muslim. Are these enclaves in Non-Muslim lands considered living in non-Muslim land or would these enclaves be considered Muslim Land?
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Woodrow
12-29-2008, 02:40 AM
What is the better choice, to migrate to a Muslim land(if you can find one) or do your best to make the small area where you live Muslim Land? This seems to be what has happened in much of the world. The country with the second largest Muslim population is India, which is non-Muslim land. Yet, more Muslims live in India than in Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Dubai, and Egypt combined. I am certain many Muslims living in India will tell you that the cities or neighborhoods they live in are Muslim lands.

The country with the largest Muslim population is Indonesia. But, it does not have an Islamic form of government. The country is considered to be a Constitutional Democracy with a parliament and President. Is it a Muslim land because it has the world's largest Muslim population?
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Tariqa
12-29-2008, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
lol, who said I was making it up?


For the millions of Muslim living in non-Muslim lands, yes, it's a very important question.



Why should they?? Just because living in non-Muslims lands is halal doesn't mean everyone has to pack their bags and leave!



Are you telling me that Muslim lands are filled with these things? Been to Dubai lately? Ever watched a Lebanese TV channel? Seen the corruption happening in Egypt?? Muslim countries are not perfect or free of sin, at all.



I'm, not speaking without knowledge. Believe it or not, the opinion you follow is not the only opinion out there. Many scholars are of the opinion that it is permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands as long as they are able to practice their religion.

The proofs? I'm not a scholar, but here is a very summarized version of some of the proofs mentioned by those many scholars who consider it permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands:

1. When the Muslims were persecuted in Makkah, the Prophet phub sent a large number of them to live in Ethiopia, a land ruled by a Christian king.

2. When the Prophet pbuh moved to Madinah and established an actual Islamic state*, he never sent any messengers to tell the Muslim living in Ethiopia to comeback to Madinah, even though it was safe for them to come back.


What does that tell us? That it is permissible to live in the lands of non-Muslims, even if there is an Islamic state.

(*note: not just a country where lots of Muslim live, which is what the Muslim lands are today!)

Anyway, putting that aside, even if it is haram, it would be impossible to transport millions of Muslims that are living in non-Muslims lands to Muslims lands! Try finding a country that will take them all in the first place!


I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
You forgot those were olden times when they were allowed to leave, now days those same rules do not apply..

SO tell me if there is no perfect place why would you choose the worst lands to go to over better but still corrupted Muslim countires....We as Muslims must alway choose the lesser evil and with your attitude we will be doomed to be the worst Muslims and the worst lands.. Is this permissible in Islam.. i do not think so....
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Woodrow
12-29-2008, 03:35 AM
Some of the most Pious Muslims and living very Islamic lives are here in the USA. The Islamic community in Austin for one comes to mind immediately. Many scholars from Pakistan and Saudi have moved to Austin, because they have found the areas to be very Islamic.
Austin now has Islamic schools, many Masjids, (for the size of the population) The University of Texas at Austin has an Excellent Islamic College and is even training Imams from Saudi, Pakistan and elsewhere in the Mid-East There are plans to had a department of Islamic Jurisprudence. There are even Islamic Book stores and Markets. It is not the ideal Muslim land, but outside of Makkah, Medina and Fez, it is the most Islamic city I have ever been in although the population is only about 15% Muslim. Several of the Subsections (Apartment Complexes) are 100% Muslim.

I still have to visit Dearborn, Michigan. It is the US city with the largest percentage of Muslims. The City Council now has a majority Muslim
membership and the new city laws are Sharia. The City broadcasts the Athan 5 times daily, city wide. Islam is the largest single religion in Dearborn.
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Malaikah
12-29-2008, 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
Says who? I live in the West and can practise Islam just fine, alhamdulilah.

I mean, at least where I live Muslim girls can wear hijabs in public schools, unlike Turkey which has an almost 100% Muslim population!
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wth1257
12-29-2008, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
You forgot those were olden times when they were allowed to leave, now days those same rules do not apply..

SO tell me if there is no perfect place why would you choose the worst lands to go to over better but still corrupted Muslim countires....We as Muslims must alway choose the lesser evil and with your attitude we will be doomed to be the worst Muslims and the worst lands.. Is this permissible in Islam.. i do not think so....
Don't you need to provide a Hadith or Qur'an verse to support your claim?
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Woodrow
12-29-2008, 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
You forgot those were olden times when they were allowed to leave, now days those same rules do not apply..

SO tell me if there is no perfect place why would you choose the worst lands to go to over better but still corrupted Muslim countires....We as Muslims must alway choose the lesser evil and with your attitude we will be doomed to be the worst Muslims and the worst lands.. Is this permissible in Islam.. i do not think so....
What about Spain? Spain has a very large Muslim population, especially in Southern Spain. While Spain is considered a secular Nation and most spaniards are Roman Catholic, it seem that Muslims have full rights to practice Islam without interference, at least in Southern Spain. In my opinion southern Spain is much more Islamic than much of Morocco.

State and Church

In Spain, although special treatment of any religious organization is considered illegal, the state does have agreements with the Vatican that give the Catholic Church unique rights. Some, but not all, have been extended to Islam and other faiths, although these religions do not receive state funding through the tax system. Despite the legal status of Islam, recognized in 1992, there have been difficulties with getting the state to follow through on its policy.1 Muslims have had some difficulties with establishing chaplains in prisons and the military (US State Dept., 2004). More recently, however, the Socialist government has made moves to downgrade the special status of Catholicism and introduced the study of Islam to school curricula.2

The 1978 Spanish constitution formerly declares Spain to be a secular state with no state religion. However, it does allow the state to enter into agreements with religious bodies to aid in ensuring rights and privileges. In 1992 the government of Spain entered into such an agreement with the Islamic Commission of Spain. The agreement, in part, deals with "the status of Islamic Religious Leaders and Imams, determining the specific rights deriving from the practise of their religious office, their personal status in areas of such importance as Social Security and ways of complying with their military duties, legal protection for their mosques, civil validity of marriage ceremonies held pursuant to Muslim rites, religious services in public centres or establishments, Muslim religious education in schools, the tax benefits applicable to certain property pertaining to the Federations that constitute the Islamic Commission of Spain, commemoration of Muslim religious holidays and finally, co-operation between the State and such Commission for the conservation and furthering of Islamic Historic and Artistic Heritage." [material taken from the official translation provided by Spain's Ministry of Justice regarding Law 26 of 10 November 1992.]

Some of the practical implications of this accord have been in the workplace. Workers are allowed time off for prayers, and to take off an hour early from work during Ramadan. There is some speculation that while the accord may have been legally beneficial, it is providing a means for discrimination in the work place as employers can argue that certain positions cannot be filled by those who take the time off from work.
Source: http://www.arabia.pl/english/content/view/21/16/
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KelleyD
12-29-2008, 04:26 AM
Well, speaking as an American female who reverted to Islam, I traveled to Egypt after converting in hopes of being able to stay. Every three months I had to leave and come back in again as a tourist. I made friends with the locals and passed around my resume in hopes of gaining employment working in a hotel, travel agency or as a guide. That was somewhat futile. I investigated going to TEFAL (teaching English as a foreign language) school but it was $3,000 pounds with no guarentee of employment afterwards. In the meantime, my visa kept running out....and so did my money.

I looked into Saudi Arabia. They don't even allow females into that country. Tunisia, Morroco...etc....all the same. The only means for a female to actually be able to live in a Muslim country is to marry a Muslim man. That isn't an overnight process. I tried one of the Muslim single's internet site a few months back and that was a complete disaster. Most of the men who contacted me were only interested in coming over to the United States! Doesn't anyone want to stay in their own country?

So, while your question is a legitimate one, it isn't as simple as just saying now that one has converted, all we need to do is move. First the Muslim countries must be willing to take on the new Muslims. As of today, there is NO Muslim country that will do that. I even looked at England and Canada, since I'd been there on travel quite a bit and they both speak English, but those countries are harder to get into than Saudi Arabia. Plus, they are not really Muslim countries so they don't fall into the category that you are referring to.

I know that Saudi Arabia will allow a foreigner into the country while making Hajj. Why not just change the rule and allow all Muslims in if they have skills and are willing to contribute to society? Believe me, if I could move, I would. Living in America as a Muslim is like living a daily jihad. If only it were as simple as just packing up and moving. I've pretty much concluded that I'm stuck here until the Mahdi returns. imsad
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Tariqa
12-29-2008, 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Says who? I live in the West and can practise Islam just fine, alhamdulilah.

I mean, at least where I live Muslim girls can wear hijabs in public schools, unlike Turkey which has an almost 100% Muslim population!


Again i think you are not understanding what i am saying... You cannot practice your deen to the full extent in a non Muslim land... Hijab is not all of Islam.. What you don't seem to understand is that it is not the parts of Islam you can practice in non Muslim countries but the parts you cannot practice or is very hard to do so... Most people that live in non Muslims lands fail for even being in the country in that is not practicing the deen.. If their is a land that is so corrupt that you are living in sin for just living their then you are not a practicing Muslim if you believe that you can practice your deen committing daily sins... You have more religious freedom in other countries and it would be obligatory to leave, as there is no way in any Muslims right stubborn mind that he or she can say i can practice my deen FULLY in a non Muslim land. that statement is contradictory to itself.. You may be able to hear hijab and make your slat but again there are allot more rules in Islam than just hijab and the 5 pillars, there is many things in the sunnah we are not allowed to do and being in non Muslim countries in the manner that we live today is not acceptable.. If you cannot admit then i would have to get detailed because obviously you must not remember the daily sins people in these lands commit in the majority...




Mister you may not also understand.. You say that there are pious Muslims in Texas?? Why for the sake of Allah would a Muslim leave Saudi to come live in a "Islamic" city in America??? And you say they are pious..???? It wouldn't matter if there was a city that was 100% Muslim, as long as the city is under the democratic, non Muslim, kufr rule then they are living under hypocrisy and disbelief every single day supporting the most evil of regimes...no matter how many prayers they make the, boss is non Muslim, and he s in charge, and the 100% Muslim city's are working for a 100% kufr leader and this is not acceptable in Islam..

What is the excuse that there is no where to go?? Of all states there is no where on the spacious earth to leave to.. ??? So what you plan to just wait until the Mahdi comes??? When will that be?? We do not know so how can anyone just say there is no hope on our parts.. This lazy mentality is the reason Muslims today are behind indeed..They give up and put trust in Allah before even tieing the camel...You cant say theres no real hope you must say that i will continue to struggle even if my money keeps running out... Deal with the hardships of the corrupt Muslim countries because it is easier than living in a non Muslim country the struggles are allot harder... You cannot give up you must continue to strive and find ways to enter these countries..

We cannot even talk about how it will be done because their are too many Muslims around here that think it is OK to live how we are living literally giving weapons to the kufr who will turn it on our families and such things.. which makes us wonder how any Muslim in their right mind will allow these way of life?? We must first all agree the leaving the lands of greater evil is wrong indeed.. If we all stick together we may be able to do this but..many Muslims are too lazy, arrogant, bold to Even admit they are in sin...Its clearly a shame..on the ummah..as well..
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_PakistaN_
12-29-2008, 07:31 AM
Well now days u can actually compare muslim countries to non muslim ones. all these half sleve shirts and skirts that are being worn in muslim countries. it is shame.
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BlissfullyJaded
12-29-2008, 07:40 AM
:sl:

I think it would be a grave error to doubt somebody's piety because they move to the US for the sake of dawah and helping the Muslim community. One of the most amazing people to come into our life was a Madani sheikh who moved here for several years teaching the youth Quraan. It was a very hard move for him and his wife to make, and I'm sure that is the case with many who move. However, his sincerity can never be doubted and he had a positive impact on many and revived many Sunnahs that were forgotten in the community here.

Before we point fingers at others, labeling them as arrogant and lazy, let us look within ourselves first to see what we are doing for this ummah. :)
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Tariqa
12-29-2008, 08:53 AM
Every person that comes in here mostly starts off saying the wrong thing... They keep comparing Muslims with non Muslims....

No way are muslims comparable to non muslim...

It doesn't matter how short their skirts are they are not the same because Muslims believe in Allah. This is the most important thing in all life... the key to life....non Muslims do not... Even if these Muslim countries are hypocrites, only Allah knows what is truly in the heart.. As long as the Muslims continue to testify in Allah and his messenger than they are Muslims to our perceptions hence if we compare their evils to the evils of non Muslims it would be like saying they are as low as the kufr, disbelievers, naked and doomed to the fire eternally, which no Muslim can utter, so the next Muslim that comes in here and says that the Muslims are no better than the non Muslims, or they are worst than non Muslims take notice of Allah's wrath upon these so called Muslims who accuse the Muslims of sins lower than a pagan or polytheist..


You may not be understanding....Any Muslim that comes to this country is not automatically deemed ill. There can be ways to give Dawah in many non Muslim countries without Settling i think it is a the mistakes of even many good scholars that come here for the sake of teaching but the forgot that in this time, even something so pure as dawah can be taken in vain and rendered fruitless and nothing more than a waste of time, energy, resources, air, and space.....Something that could be used in these even almost more so desolate Muslim countries where it seems they would need the dawah first and foremost before any other non Muslim.. We have to build our homes first before we can save the world.. How do we expect to save our home lands (Muslim lands) when we give up, say it is too hard there, and leave to a non Muslims country for a better life..?? We must battle ourselves in our homelands until the victory is acheived.....
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Thinker
12-29-2008, 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
The proofs? I'm not a scholar, but here is a very summarised version of some of the proofs mentioned by those many scholars who consider it permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands:

1. When the Muslims were persecuted in Makkah, the Prophet phub sent a large number of them to live in Ethiopia, a land ruled by a Christian king.

2. When the Prophet pbuh moved to Madinah and established an actual Islamic state*, he never sent any messengers to tell the Muslim living in Ethiopia to comeback to Madinah, even though it was safe for them to come back.


What does that tell us? That it is permissible to live in the lands of non-Muslims, even if there is an Islamic state.
Hmmm I think that’s a bit of a stretch . . .

Is that how you interpret it or could it be that Muslims are allowed to leave Muslims countries to live in non Muslim countries only when they are being persecuted.

AND

Is not commanding them to come back the same as condoning them not returning i.e. did they ask if it was OK for them to stay there and get the reply that it was OK?
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Tariqa
12-29-2008, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Hmmm I think that’s a bit of a stretch . . .

Is that how you interpret it or could it be that Muslims are allowed to leave Muslims countries to live in non Muslim countries only when they are being persecuted.

AND

Is not commanding them to come back the same as condoning them not returning i.e. did they ask if it was OK for them to stay there and get the reply that it was OK?

Your missing the point. This hadith does not justify what the Muslims are doing today... Back in that time Islam was in the beginning stages.. There was not many Muslim countries as there are today.. that is why they were being perscuted... After the end of the messenger ship everything was to be now in order and jihad was to be obligatory upon the Muslims.. It is a shame on the Muslims that they have not keep up the traditions and commands of the sunnah indeed...

It is a different time.. We can not use things that were done in the time of Medina because they were going through beginning States.. They went through all of that so that our generations wouldn't have to go through the same things they have went through.. Its a shame that Muslims chooses to leave their lands and make it hard on themselves causing the ummah to separate, the same thing the Islamic predecessors were fighting against so that we today would stick together.. Now today people are taking the easy way out, leaving the ummah well it self destroys it self to give dawah to people who will not help much of the situation to begin with??
Our dawah and jihad is at home first... We must stay as soldiers and protect our homelands.. though the Muslims know not what is best for them.. We cannot just say "oh the Muslim countries are all corrupt so lets move to an even worst non Muslim society and leave the ignorant Muslims in sin.. We must stay and fight against our Muslim brothers before some non Muslim such as Bush comes in our Muslims states and sets up regimes like democraocy...
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Thinker
12-29-2008, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
Your missing the point. This hadith does not justify what the Muslims are doing today... Back in that time Islam was in the beginning stages.. There was not many Muslim countries as there are today.. that is why they were being perscuted... After the end of the messenger ship everything was to be now in order and jihad was to be obligatory upon the Muslims.. It is a shame on the Muslims that they have not keep up the traditions and commands of the sunnah indeed...

It is a different time.. We can not use things that were done in the time of Medina because they were going through beginning States.. They went through all of that so that our generations wouldn't have to go through the same things they have went through.. Its a shame that Muslims chooses to leave their lands and make it hard on themselves causing the ummah to separate, the same thing the Islamic predecessors were fighting against so that we today would stick together.. Now today people are taking the easy way out, leaving the ummah well it self destroys it self to give dawah to people who will not help much of the situation to begin with??
Our dawah and jihad is at home first... We must stay as soldiers and protect our homelands.. though the Muslims know not what is best for them.. We cannot just say "oh the Muslim countries are all corrupt so lets move to an even worst non Muslim society and leave the ignorant Muslims in sin.. We must stay and fight against our Muslim brothers before some non Muslim such as Bush comes in our Muslims states and sets up regimes like democraocy...
There was a programme on TV in the UK some months back - 'Under Cover Mosques' where two women preachers from Saudi were saying the same thing as Tariq - I think she denounced Muslims who chose to live in non Muslim countries as hypocrites. (I'm sure most of the members here will remember that but I mention it as Tariq may not have seen the programme)
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themuffinman
12-29-2008, 12:06 PM
what you have to look at is that there are muslims all over the world but no form of government is islamic in any country. sure it would be great is all the muslims lived in islamic countries but the problem is finding a means to live inthose islamic countries whos laws arent very non native muslim friendly.....so what do you do then? there isnt much difference with the west and the islamic countires either. you have a community of pious and a community of not so pious people everywhere albeit youll find alot more people that are pious in muslim countires since it is a percentage of a larger population. as far as corruption from shirk to music to fornication....its all there even in some islamic countries.....iran for example is mostly shia, and when i went back home to pakistan i noticed there are so many forms of shirk like grave worshipping so how does that make them muslim? r these so called muslims rlly better than non muslims? i think not. i think these "muslims" who have brought inoovations in islam are ten times worse than kaffirs because atleast we know that kaffirs are so far off base they cant lead the muslims astray but some muslims can fall into the trap of these shirk committing idiots
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Tariqa
12-29-2008, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by themuffinman
what you have to look at is that there are Muslims all over the world but no form of government is Islamic in any country. sure it would be great is all the Muslims lived in Islamic countries but the problem is finding a means to live inthose islamic countries whos laws arent very non native muslim friendly.....so what do you do then? there isnt much difference with the west and the islamic countires either. you have a community of pious and a community of not so pious people everywhere albeit youll find alot more people that are pious in muslim countires since it is a percentage of a larger population. as far as corruption from shirk to music to fornication....its all there even in some islamic countries.....iran for example is mostly shia, and when i went back home to pakistan i noticed there are so many forms of shirk like grave worshipping so how does that make them muslim? r these so called muslims rlly better than non muslims? i think not. i think these "muslims" who have brought inoovations in islam are ten times worse than kaffirs because atleast we know that kaffirs are so far off base they cant lead the muslims astray but some muslims can fall into the trap of these shirk committing idiots


Brother that was one of the most intriguing points i have read on this entire post.. yes you do make a valid point..Actually i have no aim toward fighting against deviant sects of Islam.. Many of the governments such as the government in Saudi Arabia follows the Madhab's of the hannibli fiqh...school of thought.. They may fall short to follow every fatwa but they try to do so a little at least.. What you are telling me is something i had no knowledge of.. I did not know that majority of certain countries are shia and this sounds to be very odd.... If what you are saying is true then i too will advise you too avoid these lands as these lands are not even majority Muslim if their beliefs incorporate shirk...

As i have said i cannot make any rulings until i know for sure what you say is true specifically what you say about Iran being mostly shia... If this is true than the Muslims would be better off in these countries then in non Muslims lands... Even if they are deviant Muslim sects.. Yes we all know that a man of bidah is worst than a man who is ignorant..he is off the worst sinner so we can judge and clearly say who is in the fold of Islam and who is not...


Indeed this is a very intriguing issue...It is one that i may even have to research because it did not cross my mind that there are Muslim lands that are majority deviant.... I mean the type of deviance that falls outside the fold of Islam like Sufism as opposed to disobedient Sunni Muslims...just falling short to practice correctly..


All in all mister your point is very valid that there are so called muslims that are clearly kufr... I would say that no Muslim should leave a land of kufr(such as shias) to another land of kufr...Instead the Muslims should find areas of these lands that are not infested with deviant Muslim groups... Like in non Muslim lands that have Muslim communities, the same should be done for the Muslims in their so called deviant Muslim lands... But no way should a Muslim find himself go to a land where the kufr is not a hidden shirk but is i more blatant shirk as in the lands of the non Muslims.
The difference between deviant sect Muslims and non Muslims is that the deviant Muslims still claim and think that they are doing the right thing while a non Muslim knows he is wrong and he admits that he is on the path of the kufr...the non Muslims boasts about being kufr while the deviant Muslim thinks he is doing a good by being evil in islam...he is ignorant and we should still give them advice and dawah...



It is true that many Muslims fall for this trap but the cure will not be in the non Muslim lands..As i have said the Muslims in non Muslim lands should stick together as they are doing so and the Muslims in deviant Muslim lands should also do the same...they should only strive for the best.. they should not turn around or seek another evil land which is equal in sin or worst in sin...
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Ar-RaYYan
12-29-2008, 01:48 PM
I still have to visit Dearborn, Michigan. It is the US city with the largest percentage of Muslims. The City Council now has a majority Muslim
membership and the new city laws are Sharia. The City broadcasts the Athan 5 times daily, city wide. Islam is the largest single religion in Dearborn.
wow mashallah thats amazing!

to the thread starter - i know you keep saying that muslims need to move back to muslim countries but where do you suggest muslim converts move to? like some of the members already said not many islamic countries are willing to accept non-native muslims!

It is a different time.. We can not use things that were done in the time of Medina because they were going through beginning States.. They went through all of that so that our generations wouldn't have to go through the same things they have went through.. Its a shame that Muslims chooses to leave their lands and make it hard on themselves causing the ummah to separate, the same thing the Islamic predecessors were fighting against so that we today would stick together.. Now today people are taking the easy way out, leaving the ummah well it self destroys it self to give dawah to people who will not help much of the situation to begin with??
Our dawah and jihad is at home first... We must stay as soldiers and protect our homelands.. though the Muslims know not what is best for them.. We cannot just say "oh the Muslim countries are all corrupt so lets move to an even worst non Muslim society and leave the ignorant Muslims in sin.. We must stay and fight against our Muslim brothers before some non Muslim such as Bush comes in our Muslims states and sets up regimes like democraocy...
i know its important to give dawah to our muslim brothers and sisters but giving dawah to non-muslim is just as important! If muslims did not move to non-muslim countries Islam wouldnt have spread as much as it has today.

Again i think you are not understanding what i am saying... You cannot practice your deen to the full extent in a non Muslim land... Hijab is not all of Islam..
i dont think you can practice your deen to the full extent in most 'Islamic countries'


What you don't seem to understand is that it is not the parts of Islam you can practice in non Muslim countries but the parts you cannot practice or is very hard to do so... Most people that live in non Muslims lands fail for even being in the country in that is not practicing the deen.. If their is a land that is so corrupt that you are living in sin for just living their then you are not a practicing Muslim if you believe that you can practice your deen committing daily sins...
Many muslims find easier to practice Islam in the west than some islamic countries.
Can you clarify the daily sins muslims in the west are committing?

You have more religious freedom in other countries and it would be obligatory to leave, as there is no way in any Muslims right stubborn mind that he or she can say i can practice my deen FULLY in a non Muslim land. that statement is contradictory to itself..
ever lived in Tunisia, Turkey, Somalia, Morroco, Iran? At least here in the west we have more religious freedom than those so-called muslim countries
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Ansariyah
12-29-2008, 02:16 PM
Some people are Refugees, wat u gonna tell them go back to their war stricken countries n die?

Some people call the west their home, were born n bred right here, why shud they leave.

Besides, if we all leave who will conquer the west n turn it into Muslim countries?:blind:
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Argamemnon
12-29-2008, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
Muslims tend to be well educated and yes in the upper middle class or even upper class
Not here in Europe, maybe in the US.
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Intisar
12-29-2008, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Not here in Europe, maybe in the US.
:sl: How would you know that brother? There are many well-educated Muslims living in the West. Raage Omar for example, he's a top journalist from Britain and he's Muslim. I also have many Uncles from my father's side who live in Europe and are doctors, attorneys, and accountants. You can't make such a sweeping generalisation brother.

The same goes for many Muslims living in the States, and Canada. Wayyyyy before I was born my father studied abroad in the United States and England, and then he decided to go back to his country and help his people. If he had the opportunity to move back to home, of course he would but unfortunately he cannot.

Most people don't choose to live in Non-Muslim lands, it's simply a matter of circumstance. Many people fled wars, and as result became refugees and went to Western nations to seek assylum. Others simply cannot work in Muslim countries because job opportunities are scarce, many of them want you to at least have a degree (some even a high school diploma). Finally, some people call the West their home; they were born and raised here.

I don't understand this ''go back to where you belong'' mentality, because in essence, if you live in the US, Canada, or Australia, natives and aboriginals are the ones whom this land that we live in belong to. Unfortunately the colonisers came and the natives have become almost extinct.

Unfortunately in Europe you cannot use the ''I belong here as much as you do'' rant because they're the original people of those nations. At the end of the day, this is Ard Allaah, and Allaah made this world spacious enough for you to follow his commandments so there is essentially no excuse.

Say alhamdulilah that you have 3 warm meals a day, a place to live in, a family to love, and a place where you are not persecuted because so many people (living in Muslim countries btw) would love to be in your position(s). It's not all honky-dory, especially considering the fact that a lot of ''Muslim'' countries have on-going civil wars that have lasted almost more than a decade.
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Yanal
12-29-2008, 07:12 PM
Bismilahair Rahmanair raheem
:sl:
Bro I do not know why you posted this thread but I'll answer anyway. We live in a non Muslim country because we are hear to live our life in an easy way in the way of Allah. The corruption comes from leaders and politicians start that and in our so called non- Muslim country there aren't many Muslim leaders . Living with non believers is no harm rather than having good respect between neighbors. It just prides us to be a Muslim if we live near non believers.
:w:
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Keltoi
12-29-2008, 09:23 PM
When a Muslim chooses to live in a non-Muslim country, meaning here the West, they are choosing to move into a system of government. Not a Christian country, Buddhist country, Hindu country, etc. The "West" is a system. Capitalist, secular, law and order, constitutions, etc. Compared to most so-called "Muslim" countries that gives them more opportunity to live an Islamic life.
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Tariqa
12-29-2008, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ar-RaYYan
wow mashallah thats amazing!

to the thread starter - i know you keep saying that muslims need to move back to muslim countries but where do you suggest muslim converts move to? like some of the members already said not many islamic countries are willing to accept non-native muslims!

Anywhere its not the point that of where they should move the point is should they move. just listen to people like yourself that think it is OK everyday to live among disbelievers and corruption and you excuses are that because their are Muslim countries that also practice corruption? You are wildly mistaken if you think the fitnah in places such as UK Europe or America is anything close to the corruption in any land with many Muslims populations..
We are not here telling people where to move to we are telling them that they should move.. Before we can discuss where to move to we first must all agree that we have to and we should move for the sake of Islam.. No ands ifs or buts in most cases, no excuses...If we cant agree on this fact then i see the Muslims may be weak, white washed and doomed to the hells fire of Allah possibly forever... Jihad is obligatory upon the Muslims, to struggle and live hard lives not take the easy way out, these Muslims are not struggling to find Muslim lands because they have made up their mind to live easy lives.. They are not consistently trying every year to get into a Muslim country it is something that is just in the back of their minds, something that sounds "nice to do so one day" but no effort are the making..
Many Muslims believe they do not have to leave because the Muslim countries are bad as well but obviously they are lying to themselves if they think the corruption in the Muslim countries is as widespread as in countries of the west and the like..



i know its important to give dawah to our Muslim brothers and sisters but giving dawah to non-Muslim is just as important! If Muslims did not move to non-Muslim countries Islam wouldn't have spread as much as it has today.

You are widely mistaken if you believe that giving dawah to non Muslims take precedence over supporting the Muslim ummah first.. It is our first and foremost duty to secure the homeland first.. This is our dawah, protecting our Muslim states and fighting for and against the oppression of our Muslim family as well as the non Muslim family... we cannot run and use the excuse that we are giving dawah because giving dawah first you must be a living example.. What kind of message are you sending the non Muslims when you go overseas or what not, settle in a land of sin, a land full of even more corruption then many homelands of Muslims, and use the haram materials of that land to give dawah and do right..?? Allah does not accept haram means.. You cannot justify being in non Muslim lands because for 1 it is a greater evil, and for 2 you just living there every night sleeping next to these kafirs is a sin, and you cannot do evil for the sake of good especially a greater evil as Muslims seem to go to these non Muslims countries and do haram to help halal causes.. totally backward , Allah will not accept this at all..


i dint think you can practice your deen to the full extent in most 'Islamic countries'



Yes this is true but you can practice it better than you can in many non Muslim lands..We are choosing the lesser evil, Muslim going to non Muslims lands is a greater evil..you cannot justify that

Many Muslims find easier to practice Islam in the west than some Islamic countries.
Can you clarify the daily sins Muslims in the west are committing?


Any Muslim that comes in here from here on out and say that he can practice Islam easier in a non Muslim land or the west for that matter has indeed been widely indoctrinated...He is under a false perception that the little bit of freedoms he has in western and non Muslims states are indeed freedoms but they are just an illusion, they are not true freedoms..And they are greater injustices to the Muslims than in a Muslim land understand that..

To clarify the daily sins Muslims many Muslims commit daily just living in the west for one the mere presence of living there.. Any Muslim that lives in a land with so much fitnah and chooses this as his home is in sin over the fitnahs of the Muslims...Just living there is a sin....Living there includes, choosing non muslims as your neighbors under one head system of democracy or whatever kufr system you have to abide by.. You have to support this regime every day, when you pay the taxes to the government who in turn uses this wealth to support armies to kill Muslim, you support their system everyday you abide by their evil laws, Taxes, insurance, support of kufr, lack of support to the Muslim lands the ones that really need our support...
How about the money issue.. How many halal jobs are there in places such as the west...??
How many can find a halal job one that is not Incorporated with some type of sin or free mixing of women and men and blatant displays of adorations among non Muslims??
How about the economic problem how the country is much more usurious and economy based off riba then many other Muslim countries.. The more freedom you get is because of the more riba based money they make so indeed the wealthier they become they greater their evils become hence why it makes it a greater sin, a greater evil then some smaller Muslim lands of riba or even other non Muslims lands that are pooorer...

How about the banking system?? How many Muslims are supporting these evil banking regimes full of riba even though they have things like checking accounts, the banks uses their money to lend on usurious loans every single day just about which you are contributing to their sin by giving them the money you know they will lend on riba because that is their profession...There are very few if any at all Islamic banking systems in the west or in non Muslims lands for that matter.. You have a choice to find halal banking but many do not chooses to go the extra mile, they choose to take the easy way out, the way of sin..
Just to name a few disgusting sins these so called Muslims are committing in their "lands of ease" they call it
That seems mighty hard indeed for a Muslim to try to come to these lands and practice his deen when the corruption is even higher, greater more widespread in these countries then home lands.. may Allah forgive these ignorant muslims........



ever lived in Tunisia, Turkey, Somalia, Morocco, Iran? At least here in the west we have more religious freedom than those so-called Muslim countries


Somalia, and Morocco, I do not agree if those lands do not have at least Muslims as governing affairs i cannot say.. I do think that a Muslim say for instance who lives in the west America and cannot move to Saudi Arabia at the time will reduce his sin of living in the west by moving to a country like Somalia or Tunisia or turkey BECAUSE THOSE LANDS ARE CLOSER TO THE MUSLIM LANDS, they may not be Muslims lands but they are closer and they have a greater population of Muslim, even going to one of these lands is better than going to the worst lands of non Muslims such as America..



















This is a shame to listen to some of the statements these so called Muslims are making on this site.. I true shame indeed.. The Muslims have more respect for non Muslims it seems then their own brothers in Islam.. Some Muslims would rather seek asylum with the disbelievers before they try to find Muslim lands to work with..

This is a shame over and over i keep restating on this post that you do not have religious freedom, the religious freedom you think you have in non Muslim lands.. You are playing by their kufr system, you are supporting their system. This is the problem where Muslims say that there is no other land to go to in hard times so they go to a non Muslim land before they even attempt to find another Muslim land for refuge.. All Muslim lands aren't the same and their are some that has easier entrance then others..The point is that the Muslims do not even try to find an Islamic land and they immediately go to some kufrs arms.. Tell me how many Muslim inhabitant lands are there??? Your telling me out of the 30 lands or more there was no place to go?? SO what made you think certain countries like America was a free land among all the others.. How is that you were so oppressed but manage to find your way all the way to a land such as that...

The Muslims are weak.. The minute some war breaks out they all go running to the disbelievers for support,.. They do not even think that staying in their war ravaged land and fighting the oppressors is a jihad. The Muslims just want to get some money and live a fat, easy, simple life. The Muslims have lost sight that jihad is not an option, it is an obligation upon the ummah.. You do not have a choice to live a fat "easy" life in a non Muslim land while your families are dieing and being oppressed overseas.. Your western money will not save your family.. The Muslim ummah does not need the occupations of many Muslims that go to the non Muslim countries and start haram occupations. They are weak people that have forsaken the religion and denied the struggle us Muslims are supposed top be going through... Muslims are not entitled to live easy lives.. No one ever said that it would be perfectly easy for the Muslims.. Whenever some adversity strikes you can just pack up and throw yourself into the arms of kufr.. These weak Muslims have no intention on fighting.. they have settled in their new homes of sin...
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Amadeus85
12-30-2008, 12:36 AM
Muslims living in USA, UK, Holland, Germany etc might be aware that their tax money goes also to fund western troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Besides, I think that its easier to raise a muslim child in islamic way in an Egypt or Indonesia than in Europe, as many young european muslims choose unreligious way of life.
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Tariqa
12-30-2008, 01:30 AM
Of course it is easier because they temptations are alot less in smaller countires to begin with.. Its like raising a child in a smaller classroom over a large one..Obviosuly the temptations will be less than the temptation and energy of a larger room.. anyone that says it is eaiser to live an islamic life is speaking from an intoxicated mind.. they obviously are not thinking logically. How can a muslim living in a non muslim majorty counrty have it easier where islam is a minorty and many people do not understand the religon as opposed to a muslim country where at least they understand the religion, their are more islamic shops, more mosques that call the athan at the proper times, more finalical security as opposed to shark like westen banks, and a more islamic enviorment.. How could one deny that this s easier for a muslim to live in this state as opposed to the starngers of the non muslim lands..??

Also for those that say in their lands they are oppressed, allah will question why they could not find another land full of muslims that did not have wars and oppression most likely.. Those using this excues are the same ones that go to the furthest ends of the world as if the country that had a war was not next to another muslim land that was not warring.. They disregard all the other muslim lands or even non muslim lands such as eygypt or morroco that are still in the middle east or closer to the heart of the ummah..Some travel so far away to flee from "oppression" right into the arms of even worst trials..
Not thinking about trying any close neighbors land until the war dies down, they flee and set up lives and in many cases never even think to come back...





The tax issue is very legitimate.. Any muslim supporting these regimes do so more so in any other way than the taxes and suppport sent directly to the governemnts.. DOing business with the enemy is bad enough as we seen that Saudi Arabia would do business with the enemy builing the enemies infrastucture but we are not talking about business we are talking about nvoluentary support the governents of non muslim lands foruce their citizens to contrabute...a muslim moving there willingly knows that he will have to support the governments of a greater evil then corrupt governents in the muslim lands but yet he would still be willing to submit to these regimes with aid, help, and support..

Ding business with the enemy is not as great of a sin as livng directly under supporting the enemies infastucture which majority if not all of the muslims, in these non muslim lands are doing exactly that..
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rpwelton
12-30-2008, 01:38 AM
Being a new Muslim, this is an issue I've ran through my head again and again.

I have heard from many people who go live abroad and return to the US that the environment here in America is probably the closest to the environment that existed in the time of Muhammad (SAW). I'm not talking about the government or the people that surround us in our daily lives who are not Muslim, but merely the society we live in.

We have the freedom to practice all parts of our religion. We can pray 5 times a day anywhere (I've prayed in parks, businesses, planes, trains, etc). The women can wear hijab and abayas; the men can grow their beards. There is really no part of the religion we can't fulfill.

However, there are a few major obstacles we face.

One is the food. It's easy to make sure the meat you eat is halal, but there are so many ingredients used in food these days that come from suspect sources. The pig is literally the most pervasive animal on the planet. Not only does it come in countless varieties of meat and is served in nearly every American restaurant, but they make stuff you wouldn't even think of out of pig parts. You have to make sure you watch everything you buy in the stores and when you eat out, the only safe place to eat is in a restaurant that is 100% halal. It's a big fitna, but it's doable.

The other is the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our tax dollars go to fund a war that is being waged against Muslims. No doubt this is a conflict nearly all American Muslims (and Muslims in other allied lands) are a part of. Honestly the only way to get around it is to force yourself to live below the poverty line to avoid paying federal taxes. I'm not sure how Allah SWT will judge us on this. I haven't yet heard a good answer on how to deal with this one.

If the government weren't waging war against Muslim-populated lands then living here would not be such a big deal. There isn't an Islamic state anywhere, so you really can't say just because we live in a non-Muslim land there are better forms of government out there.

In the end, there is no easy answer. I would love to live in a Muslim country, but as so many life experiences have taught me in the past, the grass is not always greener on the other side. Insha Allah I would like to visit some Muslim lands to see what they're like before settling, as it would be very frustrating to get there and realize that my deen is either not growing or is shrinking. So many countries these days are Westernized, so I'm really not sure which cities in the world are best.

Allahualim.
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TrueStranger
12-30-2008, 01:58 AM
:sl:

Bro Tariqa do me a favor and tell me which Muslim Nation you live in. And kindly do tell me how many Muslim refugees it provides for, and please do tell me have you ever helped any Muslim that came from a war-torn country?
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Tariqa
12-30-2008, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by rpwelton
Being a new Muslim, this is an issue I've ran through my head again and again.

I have heard from many people who go live abroad and return to the US that the environment here in America is probably the closest to the environment that existed in the time of Muhammad (SAW). I'm not talking about the government or the people that surround us in our daily lives who are not Muslim, but merely the society we live in.

We have the freedom to practice all parts of our religion. We can pray 5 times a day anywhere (I've prayed in parks, businesses, planes, trains, etc). The women can wear hijab and abayas; the men can grow their beards. There is really no part of the religion we can't fulfill.

However, there are a few major obstacles we face.

One is the food. It's easy to make sure the meat you eat is halal, but there are so many ingredients used in food these days that come from suspect sources. The pig is literally the most pervasive animal on the planet. Not only does it come in countless varieties of meat and is served in nearly every American restaurant, but they make stuff you wouldn't even think of out of pig parts. You have to make sure you watch everything you buy in the stores and when you eat out, the only safe place to eat is in a restaurant that is 100% halal. It's a big fitna, but it's doable.

The other is the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our tax dollars go to fund a war that is being waged against Muslims. No doubt this is a conflict nearly all American Muslims (and Muslims in other allied lands) are a part of. Honestly the only way to get around it is to force yourself to live below the poverty line to avoid paying federal taxes. I'm not sure how Allah SWT will judge us on this. I haven't yet heard a good answer on how to deal with this one.

If the government weren't waging war against Muslim-populated lands then living here would not be such a big deal. There isn't an Islamic state anywhere, so you really can't say just because we live in a non-Muslim land there are better forms of government out there.

In the end, there is no easy answer. I would love to live in a Muslim country, but as so many life experiences have taught me in the past, the grass is not always greener on the other side. Insha Allah I would like to visit some Muslim lands to see what they're like before settling, as it would be very frustrating to get there and realize that my deen is either not growing or is shrinking. So many countries these days are Westernized, so I'm really not sure which cities in the world are best.

Allahualim.












First off i just wanted to quote a few statements this brother has made..
Ill admit in a land such as America you are "free" to do what you like.. Is is easier in lands such as US to do what you like?? No it is not.. You are confusing freedom with difficulty... In America it is harder to practice those same freedoms you do admit we have..The truth is even though we are allowed to make our 5 salats and grow beards, many companies also have the right to not hire you in many cases.. they may be sued but freedom only goes so far...As for mosques it is not as easy to live in Muslim communities, the ones that do then mashallah.. It is also not so easy to find halal jobs as you said the restaurants that sell pig prevail and the halal restaurants are the minority in many places... It is hard for many Muslims to find halal incomes and halal places to shop in these lands that are prevailing with flith....

It is hard for many Muslims to find halal banking environments, halal shops, halal many things because Islam is the minority in non Muslim lands.. This is why we say 1# that it is easier to practice Islam in a Muslim land and that 2# it may be obligatory because whether or not you are free to practice your religion in a non Muslim land or not, the mere living situation with non Muslims is not allowed in Islam You are choosing non Muslims as your neighbors over Muslims.. This in Islam with no valid reason is not acceptable.. Muslims are not allowed to live wherever they choose to live, Muslims are only allowed to be Muslims wherever they are..

For anyone to sit in here and say that a Muslim is allowed to live among disbelievers, ask them how?? How can a Muslim carry out shariah law in a land of disbelievers??? Shariah law is apart of Islam and it is not allowed under the regime of a kufr system.. The kufr's are in charge and you must obey their laws.. That goes for Taxes, insurance for cars, photos for licenses, marriage laws. Hope about the fact that Muslims are supposed to change the evils that are being done in their lands?? If a Muslim lives in a land with immorality he has no way of changing that evil because the kufrs are in charge.. He cannot fully practice that part of his deen...School systems and non mixing areas.. It makes it really hard for Muslims living in this situation and Muslims are not supposed to make it hard on themselves...

So what do we do just go broke?? No there are ways around paying taxes but it takes some work....The scholars say that it is permissible to obey these laws if you live in a land and you have no choice but to obey, laws such as taxes but this applies for the one that was born in the land and people of the like that have no means or plan to leave.. But they only do enough until they can leave and when they have the mean,which many do, they leave wherever is available to leave to, the lesser evil lands, as so as possible...By no means does this mean a person can immigrate to a non Muslim land and pay the tax because its a law.. He should not have came over here in the first place knowing the situations thats going on today...
Even in this permissions there are exceptions....


In the end there is an easy answer..we leave these lands instead of going under poverty.. how weak would the Muslims be if to avoid paying taxes we harmed ourselves with poverty.. Leave the land for thats they easy way out and stop trying to justify everything and get around rulings by playing with the laws of allah....We are not allowed in Islam to live like this so to make it easy we leave however we can in an Islamic manner..

If the next person responds and tells me that there is nowhere to go i may call him a liar because there are better places to go then places like America, there are smaller lands, that are cheaper with lesser evils...If you cannot now then do not say that it is permissible to live in a evil land because you cant find anything else but close your mouth and accept that you are living in sin and make the intention to leave these haram places first and then strive to find a better place...


















Why is that the Muslims keep asking me which Muslim nation i live in.. Do they not think that i have such a keen insight on whats going on if i did not live in these same lands of flith..??? I should be more entitled to speak then any scholar for i know what is going on, i know what is the deal in these lands and with the state of the ummah with my own eyes, i know i have seen, i am trying, i have tried..


Where i live does not matter, what i am doing to help the Muslims is not just for the Muslims, it is for us all. i am trying to rally support among all Muslims to at least recognize that we do have a problem and understand what the solution is to this problem.. Once we understand this then we can figure how we will execute this knowledge but first we must all understand what needs to be done...
Reply

KelleyD
12-30-2008, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
What is the excuse that there is no where to go?? Of all states there is no where on the spacious earth to leave to.. ???
Tariqa, Quite respectfully, I will ask you......which Muslim country will allow an American muslim woman to enter in and live? As soon as you can give me the answer, I'll be booking a flight.

You see, I've already done the research.....alot of it. And I keep on researching every year. And instead of finding a country which will welcome foreign Muslims with open arms, I find that the rules and regulations are becoming more and more strict. It is now virtually impossible for a foreigner to enter most Muslim countries to even visit, much less, to take up permanent residence there. The reason being is that since 9-11 and this so-called "war on terror", the violence in the Middle East has escalated to the point where almost all Muslim countries are on the State Department's list of countries which harbor terrorists and access to American (and other) citizens is denied.

So again, I pose the question, which Muslim country will welcome us with open arms?
Originally Posted by Tariqa
So what you plan to just wait until the Mahdi comes???
O.K. That was a joke.

Originally Posted by Tariqa
When will that be?? We do not know so how can anyone just say there is no hope on our parts.. This lazy mentality is the reason Muslims today are behind indeed..They give up and put trust in Allah before even tieing the camel...You cant say theres no real hope you must say that i will continue to struggle even if my money keeps running out... Deal with the hardships of the corrupt Muslim countries because it is easier than living in a non Muslim country the struggles are allot harder... You cannot give up you must continue to strive and find ways to enter these countries..
Well, you have a valid point here. While I don't see myself as a "lazy" Muslim, I will concede that I have become quite complacent in the continued search to find a way to enter those countries. As I said, about the only other way I know how is to marry a Muslim from that country. If I am not in that country to begin with, how is that possible? Can you offer any viable suggestions besides just telling someone not to give up? Not that that isn't a good start, but I welcome any others that you may have because I've wracked my brain over this for a long time and, to date, have found no viable solutions.

Which brings up another issue. I look forward to the day when Allah (SWT), inshallah, will bring a husband to me. On that day, I hope that he will want to marry me because I am a good Muslim women (among other virtues and qualitites) and NOT because I live in America. So how much worse would a good God-fearing Brother feel if he felt the only reason someone else wanted to marry him was to move to his country? There should be more to the sacred marriage union between two people than that. This is one of the reasons why I have not sought this option out. Having an alterior motive for marriage somehow feels dishonest.

So, like I said.....for me, there is no easy answer here. The one thing I know is that if I remain steadfast in my desire to move, and if my intentions are pure, Allah, (SWT) will help me find a way. I endeavor to have patience until that day arrives.

Now, I hope it doesn't sound as if I am being contentous with you because really I am not. You bring up some important points:

1 – If you live in a non-Muslim land, you should consider leaving because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) disavowed himself of anyone who settles among the mushrikeen. Hence it is haraam for you to stay in the land of kufr, especially those that have moved to them for the sake of work, since that is not one of the legitimate excuses for which you may be allowed to move or stay there.

2 – When choosing a Muslim land to live in, if possible, stive to choose the Muslim land where people adhere most closely to modesty, chastity and commitment to Islam. It is well known that the Muslim lands vary in these matters, and not every country is a place where you could settle, unfortunately, rather that depends on your nationality and the laws of the land.

3 – If you cannot move to that country, then you must fear Allah, may He be exalted, and adhere to His commands in all your affairs, foremost among which must be guarding your families against disintegration and assimilation. You must pay attention to your children, both males and females, give them a good Islamic upbringing and a sense of connection to Islamic history, teach them the rulings of Islam, and teach them Arabic well. While not impossible in America, it's not a walk in the park either......especially since 911.

4 - Whoever stays in the non-Muslim lands must realize that Allah will ask him about his flock on the Day of Resurrection, so let him prepare an answer.

Along with those points are some other things to consider:

One member said he wasn't sure why you posted this topic. I believe the basic underlying principle to this thread is that it is not permissible for the Muslim to settle among the mushrikeen. This is indicated by evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

In the Qur’aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): “In what (condition) were you?” They reply: “We were weak and oppressed on the earth.” They (angels) say: “Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?” Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!”

[al-Nisa’ 4:97]

In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

As you pointed out throughout your posts, the Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen cannot carry out many of the rituals and visible acts of worship of Islam, in addition to the fact that he is exposing himself to temptation because of the permissiveness in those countries that is protected by their laws. The Muslim should not expose himself to temptations and trials. Now, there are other schools of thought that allow this if the Muslim attempts to keep himself free from those temptations. While this is all well and good, and does provide a loophole of sorts, haven't we all been a moth dancing too close to the flame at times? Why invite temptation if one doesn't have to? Why choose to live in lands which abound with temptation on all sides if it isn't absolutely necessary?

If you look at the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah without paying attention to what is really happening in Muslim and kaafir countries, it's hard to place judgments on those living in a non-Muslim lands. To do so is to make a gross generalization of a subject that is very complex. The Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to how closely or otherwise they adhere to the laws of Islam. Rather they vary in that, and even within one country, regions and cities may vary in that regard.

Similarly the non-Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to their permissiveness and moral laxity; they also vary in that regard.

So given that the Muslim countries vary, as do the non-Muslim countries, and given that the Muslims, male or female, cannot just up and go to any Muslim country and settle there because of visa and strict settlement laws etc, and that a Muslim may not be able to practice his religion in some Muslim countries, when he may be able to do so in whole or at least in part in some non-Muslim countries – for all these reasons it is impossible to issue a general blanket statement, such as has been done in this thread, that will cover all countries and all individuals.

Rather, wouldn't it be best to say that each Muslim has his own unique set of circumstances and his own ruling that applies to him, and each person is accountable for himself. If he is able to practise his religion in the Muslim country in which he lives more than he can in a non-Muslim country, then it is not permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country. But if it is the other way round, then it is permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country, subject to the condition that he is confident that he can resist the desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah and will continue to endeavor to migrate if possible.

Here are some comments of Islamic scholars which support this whole topic of Muslims who live in non-Muslim lands:

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about this matter and he said: This is one of the most difficult issues nowadays because countries vary, as stated above, and because for some Muslims, if they go back to their homelands they will be persecuted for their religion whereas they are safe from that in the kaafir countries. But if we say that it is haraam for them to settle among the kuffaar, then where is the Islamic state that will accept them and allow them to settle there?! This is the meaning of what he said, may Allaah have mercy on him.

Zakariya al-Ansaari al-Shaafa’i said in his book Asna al-Mataalib (4/207):

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practise their religion openly.

Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: Hijrah (migration) means leaving dar al-harb [non-Muslim lands] and going to dar al-islam [Muslim lands]. This was obligatory at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and remains so after his time for those who fear for their lives. From Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/33, by al-Shawkaani.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said concerning the hadeeth, “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen”:

This is to be understood as referring to those who are not safe to practise their religion there.

In al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (20/206) it says:

Dar al-harb refers to every place in which the rule of kufr prevails. One of the rulings that have to do with dar al-harb is hijrah (migration). With regard to migration from dar al-harb, the fuqaha’ divided people into three categories:

(a) Those who are obliged to migrate: they are those who are able to migrate and who cannot practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is obligatory upon a female even if she does not have a mahram, if she thinks she will be safe when travelling, or if the risk of travelling is less than the risk of staying in dar al-harb…

(b) Those who are not obliged to migrate: they are those who are unable to do so, either because of sickness or because they are forced to stay in the kaafir land, or those who are weak, such as woman and children, because Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:98]

(c) Those for whom migration is mustahabb but not obligatory: they include those who are able to migrate but are also able to practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is mustahabb for such a person to migrate so that he can participate in jihad and increase the numbers of the Muslims.

In a fatwa issued by the Standing Committee (12/50):
One may also migrate from a mushrik land to another mushrik land that is less evil and where there is less danger to the Muslim, as some of the Muslims migrated from Makkah at the Prophet’s command to Abyssinia.

I pray and ask Allah to make a path for those of us who wish to migrate to Muslim lands to give us strength and make us steadfast in adhering to Islam and His true guidance until that day, inshallah, arrives. Ameen.
Reply

Tariqa
12-30-2008, 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by KelleyD
Tariqa, Quite respectfully, I will ask you......which Muslim country will allow an American muslim woman to enter in and live? As soon as you can give me the answer, I'll be booking a flight.

You see, I've already done the research.....alot of it. And I keep on researching every year. And instead of finding a country which will welcome foreign Muslims with open arms, I find that the rules and regulations are becoming more and more strict. It is now virtually impossible for a foreigner to enter most Muslim countries to even visit, much less, to take up permanent residence there. The reason being is that since 9-11 and this so-called "war on terror", the violence in the Middle East has escalated to the point where almost all Muslim countries are on the State Department's list of countries which harbor terrorists and access to American (and other) citizens is denied.

So again, I pose the question, which Muslim country will welcome us with open arms?O.K. That was a joke.



Well, you have a valid point here. While I don't see myself as a "lazy" Muslim, I will concede that I have become quite complacent in the continued search to find a way to enter those countries. As I said, about the only other way I know how is to marry a Muslim from that country. If I am not in that country to begin with, how is that possible? Can you offer any viable suggestions besides just telling someone not to give up? Not that that isn't a good start, but I welcome any others that you may have because I've wracked my brain over this for a long time and, to date, have found no viable solutions.

Which brings up another issue. I look forward to the day when Allah (SWT), inshallah, will bring a husband to me. On that day, I hope that he will want to marry me because I am a good Muslim women (among other virtues and qualitites) and NOT because I live in America. So how much worse would a good God-fearing Brother feel if he felt the only reason someone else wanted to marry him was to move to his country? There should be more to the sacred marriage union between two people than that. This is one of the reasons why I have not sought this option out. Having an alterior motive for marriage somehow feels dishonest.

So, like I said.....for me, there is no easy answer here. The one thing I know is that if I remain steadfast in my desire to move, and if my intentions are pure, Allah, (SWT) will help me find a way. I endeavor to have patience until that day arrives.

Now, I hope it doesn't sound as if I am being contentous with you because really I am not. You bring up some important points:

1 – If you live in a non-Muslim land, you should consider leaving because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) disavowed himself of anyone who settles among the mushrikeen. Hence it is haraam for you to stay in the land of kufr, especially those that have moved to them for the sake of work, since that is not one of the legitimate excuses for which you may be allowed to move or stay there.

2 – When choosing a Muslim land to live in, if possible, stive to choose the Muslim land where people adhere most closely to modesty, chastity and commitment to Islam. It is well known that the Muslim lands vary in these matters, and not every country is a place where you could settle, unfortunately, rather that depends on your nationality and the laws of the land.

3 – If you cannot move to that country, then you must fear Allah, may He be exalted, and adhere to His commands in all your affairs, foremost among which must be guarding your families against disintegration and assimilation. You must pay attention to your children, both males and females, give them a good Islamic upbringing and a sense of connection to Islamic history, teach them the rulings of Islam, and teach them Arabic well. While not impossible in America, it's not a walk in the park either......especially since 911.

4 - Whoever stays in the non-Muslim lands must realize that Allah will ask him about his flock on the Day of Resurrection, so let him prepare an answer.

Along with those points are some other things to consider:

One member said he wasn't sure why you posted this topic. I believe the basic underlying principle to this thread is that it is not permissible for the Muslim to settle among the mushrikeen. This is indicated by evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

In the Qur’aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): “In what (condition) were you?” They reply: “We were weak and oppressed on the earth.” They (angels) say: “Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?” Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!”

[al-Nisa’ 4:97]

In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

As you pointed out throughout your posts, the Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen cannot carry out many of the rituals and visible acts of worship of Islam, in addition to the fact that he is exposing himself to temptation because of the permissiveness in those countries that is protected by their laws. The Muslim should not expose himself to temptations and trials. Now, there are other schools of thought that allow this if the Muslim attempts to keep himself free from those temptations. While this is all well and good, and does provide a loophole of sorts, haven't we all been a moth dancing too close to the flame at times? Why invite temptation if one doesn't have to? Why choose to live in lands which abound with temptation on all sides if it isn't absolutely necessary?

If you look at the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah without paying attention to what is really happening in Muslim and kaafir countries, it's hard to place judgments on those living in a non-Muslim lands. To do so is to make a gross generalization of a subject that is very complex. The Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to how closely or otherwise they adhere to the laws of Islam. Rather they vary in that, and even within one country, regions and cities may vary in that regard.

Similarly the non-Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to their permissiveness and moral laxity; they also vary in that regard.

So given that the Muslim countries vary, as do the non-Muslim countries, and given that the Muslims, male or female, cannot just up and go to any Muslim country and settle there because of visa and strict settlement laws etc, and that a Muslim may not be able to practice his religion in some Muslim countries, when he may be able to do so in whole or at least in part in some non-Muslim countries – for all these reasons it is impossible to issue a general blanket statement, such as has been done in this thread, that will cover all countries and all individuals.

Rather, wouldn't it be best to say that each Muslim has his own unique set of circumstances and his own ruling that applies to him, and each person is accountable for himself. If he is able to practise his religion in the Muslim country in which he lives more than he can in a non-Muslim country, then it is not permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country. But if it is the other way round, then it is permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country, subject to the condition that he is confident that he can resist the desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah and will continue to endeavor to migrate if possible.

Here are some comments of Islamic scholars which support this whole topic of Muslims who live in non-Muslim lands:

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about this matter and he said: This is one of the most difficult issues nowadays because countries vary, as stated above, and because for some Muslims, if they go back to their homelands they will be persecuted for their religion whereas they are safe from that in the kaafir countries. But if we say that it is haraam for them to settle among the kuffaar, then where is the Islamic state that will accept them and allow them to settle there?! This is the meaning of what he said, may Allaah have mercy on him.

Zakariya al-Ansaari al-Shaafa’i said in his book Asna al-Mataalib (4/207):

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practise their religion openly.

Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: Hijrah (migration) means leaving dar al-harb [non-Muslim lands] and going to dar al-islam [Muslim lands]. This was obligatory at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and remains so after his time for those who fear for their lives. From Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/33, by al-Shawkaani.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said concerning the hadeeth, “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen”:

This is to be understood as referring to those who are not safe to practise their religion there.

In al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (20/206) it says:

Dar al-harb refers to every place in which the rule of kufr prevails. One of the rulings that have to do with dar al-harb is hijrah (migration). With regard to migration from dar al-harb, the fuqaha’ divided people into three categories:

(a) Those who are obliged to migrate: they are those who are able to migrate and who cannot practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is obligatory upon a female even if she does not have a mahram, if she thinks she will be safe when travelling, or if the risk of travelling is less than the risk of staying in dar al-harb…

(b) Those who are not obliged to migrate: they are those who are unable to do so, either because of sickness or because they are forced to stay in the kaafir land, or those who are weak, such as woman and children, because Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:98]

(c) Those for whom migration is mustahabb but not obligatory: they include those who are able to migrate but are also able to practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is mustahabb for such a person to migrate so that he can participate in jihad and increase the numbers of the Muslims.

In a fatwa issued by the Standing Committee (12/50):
One may also migrate from a mushrik land to another mushrik land that is less evil and where there is less danger to the Muslim, as some of the Muslims migrated from Makkah at the Prophet’s command to Abyssinia.

I pray and ask Allah to make a path for those of us who wish to migrate to Muslim lands to give us strength and make us steadfast in adhering to Islam and His true guidance until that day, inshallah, arrives. Ameen.




It would be good if this site had a chat line with a microphone like some sites do because typing can get tiresome...Anyway i will try to clarify some things that may have been misconceived.

You are if not 75- 90% right about everything you wrote you are totally right about everything.. I do not disagree with anything you are saying...I just want to make clear that i am not sayng everyone is the same but i am showing that we do not need to give people 100 excuse when we can generally put almost everyone in the world into 3 main categories as the scholars have mentioned..

First off i want to address the dilemmas of the Muslim lands. I do know the restrictions and difficulties surrounding many Muslim lands indeed.. I'm sure you study every year as i am studying every year and not only researching but i am trying to make attempts to get over.. It is easier for a male and easier for a female with a husband indeed..
Let me make this clear as i will personally tell you what i plan to do and what i think many Muslims can and should do if they are not allowed to enter into a Muslim land for any reason then i suggest that they find a land closer to that Muslim land of desired choice whether it be a non Muslim land or not, and settle in that land that is closer to the Muslim land of desired choice to reduce the sin of the current land that person lives in. For example if any Muslim is living in America where they are at war with Muslims and things then it would be best for an American Muslim to leave that land to a land such as Morocco or Egypt, even Sweden or France just to get closer to the ummah as long as that land is not worst.. Try an African country or something but anything to reduce that sin indeed..Even if you do not get into the Muslim country at least you would be one step closer and one sin less to achieving your goals..Eventually there will be some opportunity for you inshallah if you keep trying and stay consistent and have the intention to make it out.. It is only the people that say it is OK to live in these lands with no excuse that i combat and those that never intend to leave..
Reply

KelleyD
12-30-2008, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
Let me make this clear as i will personally tell you what i plan to do and what i think many Muslims can and should do if they are not allowed to enter into a Muslim land for any reason then i suggest that they find a land closer to that Muslim land of desired choice whether it be a non Muslim land or not, and settle in that land that is closer to the Muslim land of desired choice to reduce the sin of the current land that person lives in. For example if any Muslim is living in America where they are at war with Muslims and things then it would be best for an American Muslim to leave that land to a land such as Morocco or Egypt, even Sweden or France just to get closer to the ummah as long as that land is not worst.. Try an African country or something but anything to reduce that sin indeed..Even if you do not get into the Muslim country at least you would be one step closer and one sin less to achieving your goals..Eventually there will be some opportunity for you inshallah if you keep trying and stay consistent and have the intention to make it out.. It is only the people that say it is OK to live in these lands with no excuse that i combat and those that never intend to leave..
Yes. I understand what you are saying now. You are saying that even if you can't make it to the Muslim country of choice, that the lesser of the two evils is better. The basic principle is that it is haraam to settle among the mushrikeen and in their land. If Allah makes it easy for a person to move from such a country to a Muslim country, then he should not prefer that which is inferior [i.e., living in a non-Muslim country] to that which is better [living in a Muslim country].

And also that while the odds may seem insurmountable, remember that whoever gives up a thing for the sake of Allah (SWT), Allah (SWT) will compensate him with something better, and that with hardship comes ease, and that whosoever fears Allah (SWT) and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out from every difficulty, and He will provide him with sources he never could imagine. And to also remember not to be overly preoccupied with material things and making a profit because that may cost you more in the end. That preserving one’s deen is better than taking a risk in the hope of making a profit in a non-Muslim country. A Muslim’s biggest gain is his religion, and he should not risk it for the sake of some transient worldly gain.

Thanks for reminding me of those important values. :)
Reply

Tariqa
12-30-2008, 11:13 AM
Your welcome.. I pray that Allah also makes it easy on the women of this ummah. It would be nice if the women and men could Make the hijrah in their hearts and minds first before making it on their limbs
I think that is the real issue that some people become hopeless and say its impossible this and that and they seem really frantic and what not but we know the odds are against us but great minds think pass what is not possible and find ways that are... I was proposing to many Muslims to just leave their lands even if Saudi Arabia was not available try the next country closest to Saudi Arabia that is possible to get in..The lesser of two evils is something we should always strive for more so than bargaining and bidding in products..


I do think that if we give up what Allah hates and trust in Allah Allah will make it easy for us.. I do see that somehow Allah will provide for those seeking ways overseas inshaallah and others seeking Muslim lands... and even these seeking "Muslim Muslim lands" if you know what i mean inhale so lets keep trying, no matter how bleak it seems..

Honestly i have made preparations to move to an African country that is less a fitnah than America and is closer to Saudi Arabia.. I believe that will be a better situation than where i live now.. Plus being in a place like America for those who are trying to save up millions to move to a land like Saudi and never leave remember that the income in places like America is very doubtful so all that money we are saving up may be worthless overseas for halal cause even so in the eyes of allah..so may Allah guide us to right path and show us the way..
Reply

rpwelton
12-30-2008, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
First off i just wanted to quote a few statements this brother has made..
Ill admit in a land such as America you are "free" to do what you like.. Is is easier in lands such as US to do what you like?? No it is not.. You are confusing freedom with difficulty... In America it is harder to practice those same freedoms you do admit we have..The truth is even though we are allowed to make our 5 salats and grow beards, many companies also have the right to not hire you in many cases.. they may be sued but freedom only goes so far...As for mosques it is not as easy to live in Muslim communities, the ones that do then mashallah.. It is also not so easy to find halal jobs as you said the restaurants that sell pig prevail and the halal restaurants are the minority in many places... It is hard for many Muslims to find halal incomes and halal places to shop in these lands that are prevailing with flith....

It is hard for many Muslims to find halal banking environments, halal shops, halal many things because Islam is the minority in non Muslim lands.. This is why we say 1# that it is easier to practice Islam in a Muslim land and that 2# it may be obligatory because whether or not you are free to practice your religion in a non Muslim land or not, the mere living situation with non Muslims is not allowed in Islam You are choosing non Muslims as your neighbors over Muslims.. This in Islam with no valid reason is not acceptable.. Muslims are not allowed to live wherever they choose to live, Muslims are only allowed to be Muslims wherever they are..

For anyone to sit in here and say that a Muslim is allowed to live among disbelievers, ask them how?? How can a Muslim carry out shariah law in a land of disbelievers??? Shariah law is apart of Islam and it is not allowed under the regime of a kufr system.. The kufr's are in charge and you must obey their laws.. That goes for Taxes, insurance for cars, photos for licenses, marriage laws. Hope about the fact that Muslims are supposed to change the evils that are being done in their lands?? If a Muslim lives in a land with immorality he has no way of changing that evil because the kufrs are in charge.. He cannot fully practice that part of his deen...School systems and non mixing areas.. It makes it really hard for Muslims living in this situation and Muslims are not supposed to make it hard on themselves...

So what do we do just go broke?? No there are ways around paying taxes but it takes some work....The scholars say that it is permissible to obey these laws if you live in a land and you have no choice but to obey, laws such as taxes but this applies for the one that was born in the land and people of the like that have no means or plan to leave.. But they only do enough until they can leave and when they have the mean,which many do, they leave wherever is available to leave to, the lesser evil lands, as so as possible...By no means does this mean a person can immigrate to a non Muslim land and pay the tax because its a law.. He should not have came over here in the first place knowing the situations thats going on today...
Even in this permissions there are exceptions....


In the end there is an easy answer..we leave these lands instead of going under poverty.. how weak would the Muslims be if to avoid paying taxes we harmed ourselves with poverty.. Leave the land for thats they easy way out and stop trying to justify everything and get around rulings by playing with the laws of allah....We are not allowed in Islam to live like this so to make it easy we leave however we can in an Islamic manner..

If the next person responds and tells me that there is nowhere to go i may call him a liar because there are better places to go then places like America, there are smaller lands, that are cheaper with lesser evils...If you cannot now then do not say that it is permissible to live in a evil land because you cant find anything else but close your mouth and accept that you are living in sin and make the intention to leave these haram places first and then strive to find a better place...


















Why is that the Muslims keep asking me which Muslim nation i live in.. Do they not think that i have such a keen insight on whats going on if i did not live in these same lands of flith..??? I should be more entitled to speak then any scholar for i know what is going on, i know what is the deal in these lands and with the state of the ummah with my own eyes, i know i have seen, i am trying, i have tried..


Where i live does not matter, what i am doing to help the Muslims is not just for the Muslims, it is for us all. i am trying to rally support among all Muslims to at least recognize that we do have a problem and understand what the solution is to this problem.. Once we understand this then we can figure how we will execute this knowledge but first we must all understand what needs to be done...
I take it that you either live in America or another Western country, from the wording of your last two paragraphs. You then, must be doing something about your situation then, is that right? What country are you planning to move to (or more specifically, what city?)

A point about halal businesses. My friend, do you know anything about Islamic banking? Do you know that for the most part it's a sham, and that even in the Muslim world interest-based banking exists and is prevalent? I have yet to hear of a truly Islamic financial institution that has sprung up anywhere in the world. I'm sure they are out there, but the huge Islamic banking operations that you hear about in the Middle East and Malaysia are basically just a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The main reason I would move to an Islamic country is for knowledge. I want to study under some great Shayukhs and really learn this religion. Food is another reason I would move to a Muslim country. It's so hard worrying about what you eat. Even in secular Muslim countries like Turkey and extremely Westernized places like Dubai almost all food is 100% halal (although watch out for the American districts; they serve pork and alcohol).

As for earning a halal income, it is easier in a Muslim country, but there are still many non-halal places to work in Muslim lands. I think working in a restaurant or market is the safest way to earn a halal income, since so many other aspects of Islamic societies have been touched by the West. Banking, clothing, music...it's all there in Muslim lands.

I just read your most recent post and you mention an African country. Africa is probably the place with the least fitnah, but just where in Africa exactly? There are many poor and impoverished nations (and many that are torn apart by civil wars). If we're moving to avoid poverty in the US, we don't want to be moving to a place where we'll be even poorer and in an unfamiliar land. Please give us some insight so we can benefit insha Allah.

Do not get me wrong, I want to live in a more Islamic society. My wife and I keep talking about either moving abroad or moving to a more Islamic community within the US in a few years insha Allah. But I want to find a place where I can truly grow in my deen and have a true Islamic experience.
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Muezzin
12-30-2008, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
Do you think it is permissible for a Muslim to live around corruption from shirk to music, to fornication to murder???
Shirk, music, fornication and murder all exist in Muslim lands too.

No the Muslims may not be lazying it up but do you see any of the Muslims rallying together, organizing many minority Muslims to be a voice, a means to get to a Muslim country????
What are things like this forum if not a rallying together?

I don't know about it being a means to get a Muslim country. That's not the point.

Many of the Muslims think of leaving to a Muslim land as "something nice" something they would like to do... The Muslim in these non Muslim countries are making no effort to leave their home or new lands??? Nothing above and beyond.. They are sort of waiting for a chance to leave, do you see any who's actually fighting to live among the ummah????

Difficult is not an excuse.. We are to fight difficulty not just accept our miserable states..
I was born and live in a 'non-Muslim land'. It is my home. There are many others in the same situation. Which means there are plenty of other Muslims around to mix with.

Originally Posted by Tariqa
Let me make this clear as i will personally tell you what i plan to do and what i think many Muslims can and should do if they are not allowed to enter into a Muslim land for any reason then i suggest that they find a land closer to that Muslim land of desired choice whether it be a non Muslim land or not, and settle in that land that is closer to the Muslim land of desired choice to reduce the sin of the current land that person lives in. For example if any Muslim is living in America where they are at war with Muslims and things then it would be best for an American Muslim to leave that land to a land such as Morocco or Egypt, even Sweden or France just to get closer to the ummah as long as that land is not worst.. Try an African country or something but anything to reduce that sin indeed..Even if you do not get into the Muslim country at least you would be one step closer and one sin less to achieving your goals..Eventually there will be some opportunity for you inshallah if you keep trying and stay consistent and have the intention to make it out.. It is only the people that say it is OK to live in these lands with no excuse that i combat and those that never intend to leave..
I kind of see where you're coming from, but a person's imaan level does not necessarily increase the closer they get to a given Muslim country's geographical location.

Also, if you accept that some people never intend to leave, what exactly is the point of combating them? The hostile, finger-pointing approach doesn't tend to convince people, especially in writing.
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Woodrow
12-30-2008, 04:43 PM
:sl: Tariqa,

I am slowly seeing where you are coming from. It appears you are directing you comments more to Muslims that left Islamic countries to live in the West. I agree that many of them should not have done so, but there are those who had no choice.

I think those who left their home lands with the goal of gaining material wealth are in error and should return to their homelands.

Now for those of us who are reverts or the Children of reverts, we face a different obstacle, we have no Muslim homeland to return to, this is our homeland. I think here it is our responsibility to keep our Muslim communities as Islamic as possible and not engage in the secular activities that are Haram. Other religions have successfully done so. Especially the Amish who have Amish communities, shun all modern conveniences, even shun electricity, motor operated appliances, Automobiles and pay no Taxes. If the Amish can do it, so can we.
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Muezzin
12-30-2008, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
It is hard for many Muslims to find halal banking environments, halal shops, halal many things because Islam is the minority in non Muslim lands.. This is why we say 1# that it is easier to practice Islam in a Muslim land and that 2# it may be obligatory because whether or not you are free to practice your religion in a non Muslim land or not, the mere living situation with non Muslims is not allowed in Islam
Have you got anything to back this up, other than your opinion, to which you are entitled?

You are choosing non Muslims as your neighbors over Muslims.. This in Islam with no valid reason is not acceptable.. Muslims are not allowed to live wherever they choose to live, Muslims are only allowed to be Muslims wherever they are..
I don't understand what you mean.

If you're saying, 'Muslims are not allowed to choose where they live, Muslims must live with other Muslims', that doesn't really gel with the whole 'All Muslims should choose to live in Muslim lands'.

For anyone to sit in here and say that a Muslim is allowed to live among disbelievers, ask them how?? How can a Muslim carry out shariah law in a land of disbelievers??? Shariah law is apart of Islam and it is not allowed under the regime of a kufr system..
The hijab is also a part of Islam, but earlier you said words to the effect of 'it's only one part'. That was in reply to a post describing the ban of the hijab in Turkey, an ostensibly Muslim country.

Also, does that mean according to you, a Muslim country is only that which administers Sharia law?

Or if, say, George W. Bush, Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy were to become Muslim, that would make their respective countries Muslim by default?

The kufr's are in charge and you must obey their laws..
Just a side note: You mean 'Kafirs' not 'Kufr'. 'Kufr' means a state of unbelief, rather than an unbeliever.

That goes for Taxes, insurance for cars, photos for licenses, marriage laws.
If people don't like these things, they can move to a place where they do. Or they could try and change them.

Hope about the fact that Muslims are supposed to change the evils that are being done in their lands?? If a Muslim lives in a land with immorality he has no way of changing that evil because the kufrs are in charge.. He cannot fully practice that part of his deen...School systems and non mixing areas.. It makes it really hard for Muslims living in this situation and Muslims are not supposed to make it hard on themselves...
So those who find it hard should move to a place where they find it easy. I see no reason for a diaspora of Muslims into Muslim lands.

So what do we do just go broke?? No there are ways around paying taxes but it takes some work....
I do hope you're not suggesting anything illegal. Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is not.

The scholars say that it is permissible to obey these laws if you live in a land and you have no choice but to obey, laws such as taxes but this applies for the one that was born in the land and people of the like that have no means or plan to leave.. But they only do enough until they can leave and when they have the mean,which many do, they leave wherever is available to leave to, the lesser evil lands, as so as possible...By no means does this mean a person can immigrate to a non Muslim land and pay the tax because its a law.. He should not have came over here in the first place knowing the situations thats going on today...
If he should not have come here in the first place, then there is no reason why he should not comply with the law of the land. If he does not like the law of the land, he should not have come in the first place.

You see?

Leave the land for thats they easy way out and stop trying to justify everything and get around rulings by playing with the laws of allah....
Yet just sentences ago you were talking about there being 'exceptions' even with that which is permitted.

We are not allowed in Islam to live like this so to make it easy we leave however we can in an Islamic manner..

If the next person responds and tells me that there is nowhere to go i may call him a liar because there are better places to go then places like America, there are smaller lands, that are cheaper with lesser evils...If you cannot now then do not say that it is permissible to live in a evil land because you cant find anything else but close your mouth and accept that you are living in sin and make the intention to leave these haram places first and then strive to find a better place...
The Internet is rife with self-righteous messages. The thing is, they're not very convincing.

The reason I say this is self-righteous is because you've got on the proverbial high-horse and told others to shut their mouths if they dare disagree.

In writing, that's not the way to convince people to do anything.

Why is that the Muslims keep asking me which Muslim nation i live in.. Do they not think that i have such a keen insight on whats going on if i did not live in these same lands of flith..??? I should be more entitled to speak then any scholar for i know what is going on, i know what is the deal in these lands and with the state of the ummah with my own eyes, i know i have seen, i am trying, i have tried..
It's good you're trying.

Where i live does not matter, what i am doing to help the Muslims is not just for the Muslims, it is for us all. i am trying to rally support among all Muslims to at least recognize that we do have a problem and understand what the solution is to this problem.. Once we understand this then we can figure how we will execute this knowledge but first we must all understand what needs to be done...
I'm not convinced that the immediate emigration of all Muslims to Muslim lands is what needs to be done.
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rpwelton
12-30-2008, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow

Now for those of us who are reverts or the Children of reverts, we face a different obstacle, we have no Muslim homeland to return to, this is our homeland. I think here it is our responsibility to keep our Muslim communities as Islamic as possible and not engage in the secular activities that are Haram. Other religions have successfully done so. Especially the Amish who have Amish communities, shun all modern conveniences, even shun electricity, motor operated appliances, Automobiles and pay no Taxes. If the Amish can do it, so can we.
I agree. It's much like the idea of African-American slaves "going home" when they were freed during the time of slavery in America. Many times they were second and third generation and did not know Africa as a home.

In regards to the Amish, we as Muslims have to be conscious not to separate ourselves completely from society as the Amish do. If we are to live here, we must reach out to the non-Muslims whilst keeping our deen intact as much as possible. While we are here, it is our responsibility to give dawah to others.
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Woodrow
12-30-2008, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by rpwelton
In regards to the Amish, we as Muslims have to be conscious not to separate ourselves completely from society as the Amish do. If we are to live here, we must reach out to the non-Muslims whilst keeping our deen intact as much as possible. While we are here, it is our responsibility to give dawah to others.
Ameen to that. You are correct.

The Amish have isolated themselves from American society and have no interaction with other people. We do need to keep sufficient interaction to share Islam with any seekers.
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aadil77
12-30-2008, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
sorry to answer the question about the money issue.... yes it is true we have to find places to go..there are places that exsit or even if we cannot find thew best muslim lands to go to we can find better lands to go to then non muslim majority lands... I think that many muslims think about one particular land and then immediatly judge all other lands based off of the perception of the former.. this is a weak mentality...we must continue to strive and strive hard and one door closes continue to find other ways in.. It can be done if the muslims continue to search and not give up using the mentality that there is nowhere to go or we have so many problems.. cant is not a word right??? We can!




We can set the example of finding in allah in the lands allah has made sacred rather can we not indeed??
What lands has Allah made sacred? Are you suggesting 2 billion muslims move to Makkah and Madina?

Allah has made this whole planet for us to dwell in, don't you feel proud that you can go to almost any part of the world and find muslims?
There would be no dawah if there were no muslims in a country. Where does it say anywhere that its unpermissable live in non muslim lands?

Provide some proofs before you claim that we are sinning by living in non muslim lands
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aadil77
12-30-2008, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Tariqa
I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
You forgot those were olden times when they were allowed to leave, now days those same rules do not apply..

SO tell me if there is no perfect place why would you choose the worst lands to go to over better but still corrupted Muslim countires....We as Muslims must alway choose the lesser evil and with your attitude we will be doomed to be the worst Muslims and the worst lands.. Is this permissible in Islam.. i do not think so....
Have you ever left your 'muslim' land? you're under the impression that only certain lands are for us muslims. I can go to any part of the world and practice my religion FULLY and thats the jihad that muslims carry out everday whether its in muslim lands or not. I don't know whats up with you, dunno if you're angy with the west or what
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rpwelton
12-30-2008, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Have you ever left your 'muslim' land? you're under the impression that only certain lands are for us muslims. I can go to any part of the world and practice my religion FULLY and thats the jihad that muslims carry out everday whether its in muslim lands or not. I don't know whats up with you, dunno if you're angy with the west or what
From what I understand, Tariqa lives in the West and is intending to move to a Muslim country in Africa, although he has not specified where exactly.
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aadil77
12-30-2008, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Tariqa

Mister you may not also understand.. You say that there are pious Muslims in Texas?? Why for the sake of Allah would a Muslim leave Saudi to come live in a "Islamic" city in America??? And you say they are pious..???? It wouldn't matter if there was a city that was 100% Muslim, as long as the city is under the democratic, non Muslim, kufr rule then they are living under hypocrisy and disbelief every single day supporting the most evil of regimes...no matter how many prayers they make the, boss is non Muslim, and he s in charge, and the 100% Muslim city's are working for a 100% kufr leader and this is not acceptable in Islam..

What is the excuse that there is no where to go?? Of all states there is no where on the spacious earth to leave to.. ??? So what you plan to just wait until the Mahdi comes??? When will that be?? We do not know so how can anyone just say there is no hope on our parts.. This lazy mentality is the reason Muslims today are behind indeed..They give up and put trust in Allah before even tieing the camel...You cant say theres no real hope you must say that i will continue to struggle even if my money keeps running out... Deal with the hardships of the corrupt Muslim countries because it is easier than living in a non Muslim country the struggles are allot harder... You cannot give up you must continue to strive and find ways to enter these countries..
Who said anything about moving from saudi to texas?

no matter how many prayers they make.... what? they won't be accepted?

Islam is not gonna spread by muslims evacuating themselves from non-muslim countries, you don't get hundreds of thousands of people becoming muslim out of no where

You're making it sound as if we're doing some kind of kufr by living in these countries

think before you speak
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Argamemnon
12-30-2008, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I think those who left their home lands with the goal of gaining material wealth are in error and should return to their homelands.
It is permissible to live in a non-Muslim country as long as you are free to practice your religion, which is the case in the country I live in. If I migrated to a Muslim country, my life would be miserable as I would face poverty, why would I even consider it?
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Amadeus85
12-30-2008, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
It is permissible to live in a non-Muslim country as long as you are free to practice your religion, which is the case in the country I live in. If I migrated to a Muslim country, my life would be miserable as I would face poverty, why would I even consider it?
Dubai,Kuweit, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Bahrain, even Turkey has good economics with good standard of life.
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Argamemnon
12-30-2008, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Dubai,Kuweit, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Bahrain, even Turkey has good economics with good standard of life.
I'm afraid that's not true. Ask the Pakistanis and Indians living in Dubai, and how they are treated...
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Tariqa
12-30-2008, 10:42 PM
I see some Senior members and high ranking officials came to this post to speak ultimately.. Some of you understand me more than others and some of you would like to rebuttal every single letter i type.. mahshaallah..


I cannot or rather i shall not do the same and but i will answer to those comments and questions i specifically remember..



















I understand the point about Islamic banking and it is ruled as a lesser evil... If you would like to get around this you are welcomed but it would be easier to keep your money overseas and this is the part where you would have to leave to go to a Muslim land if you have no way to practice halal banking..

I can see from the first poster that his intention is not fully correct you see the only reason he wants to go overseas is to study and for halal food.. This is not correct.. the first reason that you should want to go overseas for is for the sake of Allah, the sake of this deen, you should know want and have a need to find the land of the lesser evils for the sake to reduce your sins in Allah's eyes...you should understand this first and treat it as incumbent and obligatory upon you as it is your duty to allah...

Honestly.. i am not moving to Africa or intending to move to Africa because i want.. it is not my first choice.. I currently live in America and i have made up my mind that America is of the top 5 worst countries to live in as of today and there are over 150 countries or more to move. I would be lying if i told you there is no where else to go.. Even Mexico is better than where i live, Jamaica, Brazil Europe anywhere else besides being in this land i assure.. that is why i say majority of the people in non Muslim lands that say there is no where else to go i say they are scared, weak and they do not want to make a sacrifice, to another land, either they are comfortable and are there because they want something money or whatever, and they make these excuses to justify what they want...
If you must know my first choice is a city in Medina.. I understand it is hard to get in so i am making many preparations inshallah...But in the mean time and not just putting all my hope in Medina, i am hopefully trying to get one step closer to Medina from where i am at.. I hear Morocco is good. It may not be the best Muslim land but for now it will do and is indeed a lesser evil inshallah...

Remember brother in these times it is not your choice to want to live in a more Muslim land, it is incumbent upon you, you have no say or choice in this matter.. if you do then bring your reasons and in mostly if not all cases you will have no witness and excuses for your actions which is why i say just accept Islam, all of Islam, not just the parts that you feel you would like to want to do, accept Islam and all of its ruling Prohibitions and obligations...never slacken on the deen so that Allah never slackens or forget you on the day of judgment inshanallh..

The comment about the Amish


Yes this is the most important point of this whole thread... Muslims who are forced to live in non Muslim lands and use this excuse must take a look at the Amish... They are not our examples but its safe to say the amish does something maybe the Muslims should consider...
There is only one contradiction that in Islam we cannot follow the ways of the Amish as the last revelation brought new laws to our religion...

See in Islam it would be OK if we lived like Islam if it wasn't for the fact that living under the kafirs rule is not permissible... You see back in olden times the jurisdictions of lands was not like this.. You could stay in a land and it would be like your own land that you ruled...Nowadays there are many things staying in a non Muslim land that a Muslim cant do, it will go against the kafirs laws and you can be imprisoned which means you will have to obey their laws or go to jail.. The Sharia completely contradicts with western laws... Any Muslim or anyone on this thread that makes a post asking me how cant a Muslim practice his deen just take a look at the shariah laws that a Muslim cannot impose in a non Muslim land.. This is obvious you would go to jail...

I think i want to make on e thing also clear.. Yes it is true i am directing more of my comments to the ones that moved to this land from better lands but they are not the only ones in sin.. Some people came over here for issues like hardship and poverty.. Poverty is not a valid reason to leave a land because it is not risq.. There is no reason a Muslim should choose sin for a "better life".. Also the people that claim their "story is different".. Many times they say they had wars in their countries and when you ask them where did they move to they would say America or some non Muslim land where the fitnah is much greater than a neighboring country of the land they came from and this is very common..

i am also directing many of my comments to those who use the excuse that they were born in this country or something like that and they have no means to leave these haram lands... Or they say there is no where to go because Saudi is strict... I direct many of comments to them because they sound desperate when they ask "well where should we go".. I tell them to ask Allah that and do not ask me that very much because you know better in your heart where you should go then i do.. I can only tell you and advise you wherever you at to leave immediately and don't give me any excuse because in this case many Muslims in non Muslim lands can pack up and leave right now to any land of lesser evils If you are already in a land of lesser evils then pack up again and keep moving until you keep going to the lands with the least evil and if the evils change from year to year until you reach the best place, the land with the least evil came of like the game musical chairs except we are trying to turn the music off..

Again when i say the Muslim are not rallying i mean they are not making it a main concern.. many Muslims just think it is mustahabb.. many Muslims do not see that the obligatory status there is in to leave all lands of kufr, and in our case leave all lands of the greater and greatest kufr, and/or fitnah..

I do not have to fight the Muslims who want to live in these haram lands, nor do i have to fight the Muslims who agree and do not see that Muslim must leave haram lands, nor do i have to fight the Muslims who believe a Muslim can live where ever he wants to live with even if that lands is full of mushriks... I am only here to convey the message... The message combats these people itself so your right, i will continue to fight them even if they don't understand without finger pointing.. This attitude is like telling the man to not give dawah because no one is listening.. Allah hears all things so someone is listening..


I do not understand why many Muslims do not understand that first.. You can only do certain things in non Muslim lands and the recommended things mustahabb in Islam you have a great difficulty in doing. Take a look at the amish... They are a minority, they do not fight the kufr, they do not spread the message, they stick to themselves.. This is fine but why would a Muslim want to make his life so hard in this manner?? Why would not a Muslim not want the best in life?? Why would a Muslim just want to be left alone and not seek the highest reward in life..?? At times this could be prohibited in Islam especially when there is a call for jihad and remember jihad is not something that is nice or something you have a choice in when there is a call to fight you have to fight, lest you be the coward of the muslims....


So obviously these two major issues is a reason why it is virtually impossible to live in a non Muslim land and practice your deen to the fullest... There is too much that a Muslim has to do to just think hijab and salat makes you a Muslim..
Allah tells us to choose the easier path, the path with lesser vices, surely living like the Amish is like living in a mountain secluded.. This is OK for a period of time if you have no other way, only until you can find a way out, this is certainly not the life the Muslims should seek to live or emulate..



What if you lived in a land with no kufr governing system and everyone was free to do whatever they want??

Even if this was possible and we were living in a land with no rules where we can make up our own shariah laws and apply them there is still one thing missing...For one the Muslims should stick to the flock lest the lone sheep gets eaten by the wolf.... A Muslim group would be living in this type of land and unless the majority of the ummah lives there as well they would be the lone flock of the ummah.. It may work but this is obviously not the life we Muslims should strive for... There is also the threat of enemy attacks and a small village would not be ready to stand up to a large land so it is the Muslims duty to gain as much land, troops, and power as possible, never should less be something to settle for..

2 billion Muslims needs to find someplace to go, the closer to Saudi Arabia the better.. It may not be possible for 2 million Muslims to all go at one time but somehow they need to at least make the intention to leave before they feel they do not have to leave at all..and think what they are doing and living in the non Muslim lands they are living in is "dawah"...

Allah has made this whole UNINHABITED world for us to dwell in to set up our rule.. If we cannot because the land is already inhabited then we do spread among ourselves not be the infiltrators and go into these lands, commit sins to change it from the outside.. this is not Islam and we are not a religion of conquerors and world dominon...


Jihad is not fighting fire with fire.. If you go to any of these lands and make it your home, the same lands that you are trying to convert, how in the world do you call that dawah?? How do you expect the people to change their land or leave it when the messanger is just as bad living among the enemies? This is not jihad.. We do not conform and compromise with the enemy and learn their ways and haram customs to get them to learn ours. This is ignorance.. We are inviting them to our banquet.. They should choose to accept or not and not the other way around or anything in between..
Again we do not need a million Muslims in a land trying to get Islam to spread while the ones calling to Islam are not themselves following the message and are not the examples... This was not the method of dawah from the predecessors.. We are talking about dawah trips like business trips not dawah migrations like pilgrimages.. We do not change a land of people like that by migrating among them.. Many times Islam is spread by the sword.. By living among the enemy you are setting yourself up and families in the battle ground.. This is not logical...

If Muslim moves from Saudi to Texas i never said that his prayers will not be accepted but there is a strong chance that his dua's will not be answered... All the salat he makes will not matter until we repents from his sin because the 5 daily salats only purifies one from minor sins and mistakes, one living in a non Muslim lands is continuously in a state of sin until he leaves and repents..

Obviously you do not read many hadiths.. Yes just the mere living among non Muslims can be an action of kufr.. I do not have to think before i speak much because obviously you are missing the point.. When a Muslim lives among a group of people it is not long before that person adapts the customs and ways of that group people this is why Muslims where commanded to be among the Muslims, and bow with those that prostrate.. Living among non Muslims can and may only make that person to grow like them and if they incorporate some kufr in their lives, it is not long before that person incorporates that same action whether indirectly or directly, intentional or unintentional..Muslims are not allowed to put themselves in this harms way and risk it for it is a type of gambling to live in these lands, a gamble with ones deen and even worst for the many Muslim children that go astray raised up in these lands as well..

It is a shame that the Muslims do not see there is more to our religion then the 5 pillars and you are not allowed to exercise the rest of our deen in the current state of life today therefore you cannot find me one land where any Muslim can say that he is free to practice his deen there because he is lacking on many things living in that land....

It is also a shame that the Muslim says that if he goes back to his homeland he faces poverty.. Is he not already in a land of spiritual poverty?? What would be worst???May Allah forgive these weak Muslims indeed.
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rpwelton
12-31-2008, 02:15 AM
I'm not going to reply to all of your post at the moment because it's quite long, but I thought I'd chime in with a few points.

First off, do you expect to find lesser evils if you go abroad? Western society has influenced every corner of the world, save the jungles of the Congo and perhaps Antarctica (exaggerating of course, but you get my point). There is more lewdness in Muslim countries than you would find in Western ones. And many times these sins are all committed openly. I was listening to a lecture by Hamza Yusuf earlier today and he quoted a statistic that says the highest rates of downloaded pornography per capita were in Muslim lands.

You mock me for wanting to move to seek knowledge (which by the way, is for the sake of Allah SWT) and to make sure that all the food I eat is halal without having to worry (again, which is for the sake of obeying Allah SWT). Of course these are not the only reasons, but one should not just go to a Muslim country because he or she thinks they will suddenly be amongst noble, upright and moral people. Yes, there are many Muslims that possess these qualities, but also many more that don't. My guess is it's very much like America in terms of the character and attributes of the people. A good Muslim is far more than someone who prays five times a day and fasts Ramadan; they have to live Islam on the inside and outside. Just as you have good and bad Christians in America, you have good and bad Muslims overseas. One should move to a Muslim land for the sake of pleasing Allah SWT and growing in the deen. If you move abroad and your deen shrinks because you see so many immoral Muslims or Muslims behaving not in accordance to Islamic laws or teachings, this is not a good thing. I'm not saying it would happen, but it's a possibility.

Yes America is under a kufr governing system, but there are no lands that are governed by pure sharia law. Many Islamic countries are ruled by monarchies. We can't just "make up" sharia law as you say; most of these governments do not want to turn their countries into fully Islamically ruled societies.

May Allah SWT reward you for seeking out a Muslim land to reside in. But, I would advise you to visit for a month or so in order to get a true feel of what it is like before committing yourself long term.

Also, you need to provide hadeeth and verses from the Qur'an to justify your views, or point us to a scholarly fatwa that outlines what you have said here.
Reply

Tariqa
12-31-2008, 04:24 AM
Subanallah who is mocking who??? I simply said that moving for better food is for the sake of Allah but that is not the reason that you should be moving.. Many people do things for their benefit and for the sake of Allah.. if i told you moving to the overseas land you will not find halal food , you may only have dates to eat would you still go after knowing you face poverty overseas..?? Would you still say it is for the sake of Allah.. You should change this attitude and it obviously shows that your mentality is flawed.. you are the same one who is asking me for proof from the hadiths and such when this is clearly in the quran and sunnah but yet you seem to choose not to want to use your mind you just want links like fat people just want more hot dogs.. am i not making this as logically understandable as possible??

Very well you can leave and go wherever you want for whatever you want ..its not my business and i do not care since you think that someone is attacking you and you obviously do not take my word for many things..


If you were a sincere Muslim that is doing deeds for the sake of Allah only whether you receive your reward on this world or you do not then tell me why is it that you keep bringing up one of the most redundant topics in this post, the one that every so caller weak Muslim continues to bring up... The issue that Islamic countries are also as bad as the west or even more so.. I have heard this so many times and this statement is so wrong.. The Muslim countries are bad but they are not as bad as the western non Muslim lands and if you believe that, then that shows where the level of your iman is truly at.. I'm not accusing you of anything your own foolish tongues do not already speak volumes about your characters on this post..
I hate to say but this notion is among the most ignorant of notions.. it is a type of throwing mud on the Muslims for what they lack , but did you stop to make note of what they do have over the non Muslim countries?? How about more Muslims that believe in Allah over these lands, did you mention that.?? Or i take it shirk is something that does not bother you.. Is it that shirk can be tolerated but INTERNET pornography cannot??? Is it that pornography is a greater sin then shirk?? If it is then you have obviously miscalculated the sins of the ummah and you obviously do not know what the principle is of greater or lesser evil is..


Heres to your statement that America and Saudi Arabia both have no Sharia laws. . is it do you think that America governing system of democracy is equal in sin to the Saudi governing system.. How can you compare the two.. ?? you greatly obviously must no be thinking with your head to rebuttal on this thread attacking me for accusing you of something i did not, and then only make your self look more guilty the more you bring up irreverent matters that has already been discussed a million times or so..

If you would like proof of anything i say or do not say then look no further then on this thread.. take a look back because obviously you did not digest everything on this post as you seem to be skipping points only to jump and digest the points that you would like to use to your own defense...subannahllah and may Allah forgive you for your emotional weak ways....indeed inshallah...
Reply

islamirama
12-31-2008, 04:43 AM
It seems this thread is quite lengthy and confusing for some.

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practice their religion openly.

If Muslims are treated badly and oppressed and they still don't migrate, then the Angels will ask them "how were you treated" and they will say they were oppressed, and the angels will say "was Allah's earth not big enough to migrate?" and then those people will be drag to hellfire and thrown in.

So it is important for those who are oppressed to migrate out of those kuffar lands. As for others, inshallah visit here:'

Can Muslims settle in kaafir countries for the sake of a better life?

Advice to the Muslims in the West (or kuffar land)
Reply

Woodrow
12-31-2008, 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
It seems this thread is quite lengthy and confusing for some.

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practice their religion openly.

If Muslims are treated badly and oppressed and they still don't migrate, then the Angels will ask them "how were you treated" and they will say they were oppressed, and the angels will say "was Allah's earth not big enough to migrate?" and then those people will be drag to hellfire and thrown in.

So it is important for those who are oppressed to migrate out of those kuffar lands. As for others, inshallah visit here:'

I agree

From that I especially agree with this paragraph.

So given that the Muslim countries vary, as do the kaafir countries, and given that the Muslim cannot go to a Muslim state and settle there because of visa and strict settlement laws etc, and that a Muslim may not be able to practice his religion in some Muslim countries, when he may be able to do so in whole or at least in part in some kaafir countries – for all these reasons it is impossible to issue a general ruling that will cover all countries and all individuals. Rather we should say that each Muslim has his own unique set of circumstances and his own ruling that applies to him, and each person is accountable for himself. If he is able to practise his religion in the Muslim country in which he lives more than he can in a kaafir country, then it is not permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country. But if it is the other way round, then it is permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country, subject to the condition that he is confident that he can resist the desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah.
I'm still reading this link
Reply

Tariqa
12-31-2008, 05:28 AM
So given that the Muslim countries vary, as do the kaafir countries, and given that the Muslim cannot go to a Muslim state and settle there because of visa and strict settlement laws etc, and that a Muslim may not be able to practice his religion in some Muslim countries, when he may be able to do so in whole or at least in part in some kaafir countries – for all these reasons it is impossible to issue a general ruling that will cover all countries and all individuals. Rather we should say that each Muslim has his own unique set of circumstances and his own ruling that applies to him, and each person is accountable for himself. If he is able to practise his religion in the Muslim country in which he lives more than he can in a kaafir country, then it is not permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country. But if it is the other way round, then it is permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country, subject to the condition that he is confident that he can resist the desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah. ---- unknown qoute.
















You all must be forgetting somthing... there are many muslims that indeed can worship better in the muslim countries..it is like almost a statisical 99.9% of the people that live in muslim countries can do this and if not in every muslim country then there is another muslim country that is either equally as easy to practice or a little lesser or more.....

We all know the fatwas but its time for us to get realistic.. How many people are going to places where the corruption is 50 times greater than in a land such as in africa or somthing closer.. Even in the UK the fitanah is not as bad as it is in america but some people feel the need to go so far from the ummah and most times it is for their lusting greedy desires to accumalate more wealth in the Us because it is known for its wealth and not the other way around...

Many situations can be looked at and be judged right then and there and it makes it easier..

Yes there are strict laws of muslim countries but there are also other countries that are more lax still close to muslim lands and further from the utter destruction of some states such as america.... we are only trying to be realistic here..
Reply

rpwelton
12-31-2008, 12:01 PM
Imagine this. You're standing on the Day of Judgment and the non-Muslims of the West complain to Allah SWT that they were not given the message. They then come to you and ask why you didn't give them the message since you were one of the Muslims who used to reside in America (or Europe, etc). What are you going to say?

Are you saying that these people don't deserve dawah? Don't they deserve to know about Islam be called towards it?

How was Islam spread to China, Indonesia, India and Africa? Certainly Muslims did not move to vacant lands and start populating the place. Sahaba were sent out during the time of Muhammad (SAW) to the edges of the earth to spread Islam. They lived in non-Muslim lands and probably endured much persecution for the sake of spreading the religion of Allah SWT. Muhammad (SAW) could have surely told them to come back to Medina as soon as the Islamic State was established, but he didn't. Many of the sahaba are buried many thousands of miles from Medina.
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aadil77
12-31-2008, 04:06 PM
Sheikh Tariqa I told you to think before you speak, again you accuse us of constantly being in sin and kufr by staying in non muslim lands.

You've got to be careful mate, just because you feel strongly about something doesn't give you the authority to say who's sinning and who's not, you don't know our intentions, you don't even know if must of us are even aware of the importance of migrating

You could have started this thread informing us about the importance of moving to muslim lands, you could have quoted hadiths etc. Which we would have welcomed and benefited more from than just reading pages of slowly revealed reasons to why its important.This is how it goes on this forum. Instead you asked insulting questions and accused us.

you might have found what the respones you were looking for if you did the above
Reply

islamirama
12-31-2008, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
It seems this thread is quite lengthy and confusing for some.

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practice their religion openly.

If Muslims are treated badly and oppressed and they still don't migrate, then the Angels will ask them "how were you treated" and they will say they were oppressed, and the angels will say "was Allah's earth not big enough to migrate?" and then those people will be drag to hellfire and thrown in.

So it is important for those who are oppressed to migrate out of those kuffar lands. As for others, inshallah visit here:'

Can Muslims settle in kaafir countries for the sake of a better life?

Advice to the Muslims in the West (or kuffar land)
I think the above covers this thread properly, and as such this thread should be closed so as to avoid any further confusion or useless discussion with our limited knowledge.
Reply

rpwelton
01-01-2009, 01:11 AM
Perhaps someone can enlighten me on one particular issue. When the majority of the Muslims migrated to Medina, what was the status of the ones who stayed behind in Mecca and continued to practice their Islam? Clearly they were living with the Quraysh, who were at war with the Muslims in Medina. Were those Muslims who stayed behind living in sin? I honestly don't know the answer so I'm hoping someone with knowledge can reply.
Reply

islamirama
01-01-2009, 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by rpwelton
Perhaps someone can enlighten me on one particular issue. When the majority of the Muslims migrated to Medina, what was the status of the ones who stayed behind in Mecca and continued to practice their Islam? Clearly they were living with the Quraysh, who were at war with the Muslims in Medina. Were those Muslims who stayed behind living in sin? I honestly don't know the answer so I'm hoping someone with knowledge can reply.
Not answering your question but like to make a comment relating to it.

As mentioned before, if one is oppressed then it is obligated for them to make hijra, unless they cannot then they inshallah work towards getting to that point so they can.

The Muslims in Makkah were oppressed and tortured and what not. It was pretty much like how Gaza and palestine is. The Muslims living western countries like UK, USA are living in the countries that are enemies of Islam. Unlike the Gazans or Muslims in Makkah, we are helping the enemy of Islam with our taxes. And they can come get us anytime they want and throw us in prison, gitmo or deport to afghan or somwhere like Dr. Afia for some torture without any evidence. If one does live in kuffar land, it would be best to in a muslim tolerant or friendly land, and one that is not directly at war with Muslims, invading/occupying their lands, and making you pay (with taxes) for the soldiers and bombs that are used against the Muslims.
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