Child Marriage

[Thinker]

Last night I watched a TV documentary (Unreported World) reporting on child marriage in Nigeria and the devastating effects of pregnancy on girls so young. Many of the young girls die giving birth, most of the babies die and lots of girls end up with a condition called fistula which leaves them incontinent which in turn gets them ostracised by their husbands and local communities.

The Nigerian government has introduced a law (The Child Rights Act in 2003) making marriages to girls under 18 years illegal. All the non-Muslim states have adopted the law and all but one of the Muslim states have not adopted the law and the one state that has adopted the law have changed the line where it says girls must be 18 years old to girls must have reached puberty.

The reason the Muslim states have not adopted the law is because they suggest that Islam permits marriage at any age pointing to the Qur’an and sunnah as evidence. The reporter interviewed an imam who suggested that Islam permits marriage to a girl at any age but the husband should not consummate the marriage until the girl is old enough the safely have children!

I presume all the Muslims on this forum would agree that it is wrong to have sexual relations with a girl below a certain age and doubly wrong to endanger her life by making her pregnant and I presume that all of you would agree to that because you are all ‘educated.’ What I don’t understand is how (being educated) you strive to follow many other many of the other problematic customs of 7C Bedouin because of an hadith or the sunnah and how you reconcile that you should follow this hadith and not that or this sunnah and not that?

[Qingu]

That's the problem with religion though. It's a snapshot from an ancient culture that becomes locked into place instead of evolving with the rest of the world.

Muhammad had twelve wives, the youngest of which was nine years old. Since Islam says Muhammad was the greatest dude ever, I don't think you're going to find many Muslims who oppose doing what Muhammad did. However, I have seen some Muslims claim (without evidence) that puberty happened sooner back in the 7th century than it does today, so therefore marrying someone as young as Aisha today would be wrong.

I expect we'll see more claims like this from Muslims as Islamic culture continues to evolve. Christians used to think polygamy and marrying young girls was okay—because after all, King David had lots of wives and plenty of them were young. But Christian culture has evolved, and their interpretations of their holy text and heroic figures have evolved to suit.

[islamirama]

That's the problem with religion though. It's a snapshot from an ancient culture that becomes locked into place instead of evolving with the rest of the world.

Muhammad had twelve wives, the youngest of which was nine years old. Since Islam says Muhammad was the greatest dude ever, I don't think you're going to find many Muslims who oppose doing what Muhammad did. However, I have seen some Muslims claim (without evidence) that puberty happened sooner back in the 7th century than it does today, so therefore marrying someone as young as Aisha today would be wrong.

I expect we'll see more claims like this from Muslims as Islamic culture continues to evolve. Christians used to think polygamy and marrying young girls was okay—because after all, King David had lots of wives and plenty of them were young. But Christian culture has evolved, and their interpretations of their holy text and heroic figures have evolved to suit.

First of all Muhammad (saws) had 9 wives i believe. Aisha r.a. consent was given, and she was already engaged to someone else at that time. Her marriage was a divine command and a special case not "sunnah" to follow. No woman provided more knowledge about Islam and details of the Prophet's life than her. The pagan arabs hated Muhamad, even the jews and christians and despite all their hatred and propaganda against him, none of them raise an issue about this marriage. why? marriage of young girls age 9-14 was common in the world at that time, in the east and the west. Motality rate was high and maturity and puberty set in early. Alexanader conquered most of the world at age 16, Muslim boy young at 15-16 was put in charge of a large Muslim army, and other youth achieved just as much. Today you can't even find a 25 or a 30 year old man or woman as mature as those people were.

Why don't you go research on all this and while you are at it, research on puberty striking early in the old days. I"m sure you are capable of doing that. Also, look up early puberty related to hotter climates.

The sunnah of muhammad is a clear example for us to follow. The culture you talk about is not the same. There is no true islamic culture today, every nation's culture is mixed with Islam be it islamic or unislamic.

As for marrying young girls. There are conditions that need to be met, you can't just go marry a girl. She has to reach puberty first to be considered adult in Islam, she has to be mature and of sound mind to know what she is saying, and she has to give her consent. We all know a 10yr today doesn't know what she is doing. and even scholars says its better to marry someone close to your age or with someone with not too much age gap for better compatibility. So islam and muslim scholars have provided guidance. It is the people who have stuck to their own culture. Don't go blaiming islam like rest of the ignorat baffoons out there. If it was Islam and not people's culture then all muslims would be marrying little girls, even here in the west.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Related to the original question;

Imam Ibn kathir (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates a hadith in his Al-Bidayah wa-Nihayah:"Imam Bukhari (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates another hadith which he heard from Farwa bin abi al-Mughria who heard from 'Ali bin Masher who heard from Hisham bin 'Urawh who heard from his father who reports from 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her), who said: 'When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was betrowth to me, I was six years old. Later, when we migrated from Makkah to Medina and satyed at bin harith bin khdhrj's place, I had grown up. My hair had got longer and I had physically matured; however, I still used to play with other girls...I was nine years old at that time."

Source Page 210-211

It is possible for young women past puberty to have children;

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...thaigalhx9.jpg


If someone said that a 9yr old isn't capable of having children or sex; I would quote the following fatwa from Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azîz ibn Ahmad Ad-Durayhim:

As for the possible negative consequences of a man of such a mature age marrying such a young girl, it is patently obvious. The discrepancies in their capabilities, both physically and mentally, could bring about serious differences between the two of them that could lead to the failure of the marriage. This is something that has been seen and is well understood.

Therefore, I would not recommend such a marriage nor would I encourage it.

Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm."

It can also be seen in the very conduct of the Prophet (peace be upon him). He did not consummate his marriage with 'A’ishah for a number of years on account of her young age.

And from the fatwâ committee supervised by Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî we note:

The lawfulness of consummating a marriage at such an age is contingent on the maturity of the girl and that no harm would come to her.

So if any harm would come from it, then it is unlawful i.e. harâm.


Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam) said,

لا ضرر ولا ضر

"There is to be no harming, nor reciprocating of harm." (Musnad Ahmad, authenticated by Al-Albânî)



More;
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...age-aisha.html

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[Umar001]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

Last night I watched a TV documentary (Unreported World) reporting on child marriage in Nigeria and the devastating effects of pregnancy on girls so young. Many of the young girls die giving birth, most of the babies die and lots of girls end up with a condition called fistula which leaves them incontinent which in turn gets them ostracised by their husbands and local communities.

The Nigerian government has introduced a law (The Child Rights Act in 2003) making marriages to girls under 18 years illegal. All the non-Muslim states have adopted the law and all but one of the Muslim states have not adopted the law and the one state that has adopted the law have changed the line where it says girls must be 18 years old to girls must have reached puberty.

The reason the Muslim states have not adopted the law is because they suggest that Islam permits marriage at any age pointing to the Qur’an and sunnah as evidence. The reporter interviewed an imam who suggested that Islam permits marriage to a girl at any age but the husband should not consummate the marriage until the girl is old enough the safely have children!

...

I do not understand what it is tha you find so objectionable. The Law or the Abuse of it?

In the Civilised world if I had a handicapped woman who was over 18, I had sexual intercourse with her, I would not have broken a law, but it would still be wrong, depending on her handicap.

What we are dealing with here is not the AGE but the ability to provide consent and the avoidance of harm. So in reality this age limit, is not there because at 18 some magic happens, otherwise all the countries like United Kingdom, USA, etc would have the same age.

Rather, the age is a way through which the countries try to ensure the mental and physical capability of the individuals concerned. It's not the best way! Islam may have a different, better way. Don't judge this way due to the abuse of some individuals who do not practice it.

Regards,

al-Habeshi

[glo]

This thread is going way off topic!
Perhaps mods can clear it up a bit?

[Whatsthepoint]

This thread is going way off topic!
Perhaps mods can clear it up a bit?

Let them rename it. It would a shame to waste two pages of good debate.

[Zahida]

:sl: Ver interesting to read your posts guys, some serious, some just a joke and others frustating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Naturally you have managed to go off the topic. I watched the programme and as a mother of a fourteen year old mother i could not imagine putting my daughter through any such thing. I love and respect my religion but as one of you have said times have changed...............

How many of you watched the programme? And how many of you have daughters/sisters of this age. Put yourself in this position and ask yourselves would you allow it to happen to one of your own. I doubt it very much!!!

Also Brother Talha. Islam allows more than one wife for men to feed their sexual desires............. this however does not mean that they should take that one thing and abuse it. Polygamy in the times of our Prophets was very different, to the way polygamy is used today.

Allah sees and hears all.....................Ameen.:w::zip:

[Muezzin]

Okay. All polygamy-related posts have been moved to:

This thread.

[Civilsed]

Asalam Alaykum,

i would like to share a few videos that they help people understand

Culture vs Islam
http://theislamicummah.ning.com/vide...med-phub-aisha
http://theislamicummah.ning.com/vide...d-phub-aisha-1 Part 2

[Zahida]

:sl:PHHEWWWWW Thanks.:peace::w:

Okay. All polygamy-related posts have been moved to:

This thread.

[Thinker]

Asalam Alaykum,

i would like to share a few videos that they help people understand

Culture vs Islam
http://theislamicummah.ning.com/vide...med-phub-aisha
http://theislamicummah.ning.com/vide...d-phub-aisha-1 Part 2

Thanks, I’ve watch the videos. The narrator suggests that (historically) puberty is the identifier for point in the development of a girl which is her time to marry and have children.

I may be wrong but I believe that puberty is a process that commences develops and ends. I believe it starts earlier in some and later in others. I believe the progresses quicker in some and slower in others. I have no medical qualifications but I suspect that the earliest time that it is safe for a girl to have a baby is at the conclusion of the metamorphic development that is puberty not the start of the process. The question is how does a civilised society, seeking to protect its children, identify that point?

[Thinker]

It is a fact that pregnancy and childbirth in a girl whose body has not fully developed massively increases her chances of death or permanent physical and psychological damage.

I presume that any ‘civilised’ society puts the protection and well being of their children high on their list of priorities and would implement measures to protect its children. The question is how do we identify when a girl has the physical and mental capacity to safely have a baby? Do we look to medical science for an answer or do we look at the Qur’an and the sunnah for the answer. The Nigerian Government chose medical science; the Muslim states in the north chose the Qur’an! I previously started a thread on this site suggesting that the Qur’an does not and should not have the answer to everything and this, I suggest, is an example of the point I was trying to make.

[aamirsaab]

..The question is how do we identify when a girl has the physical and mental capacity to safely have a baby? Do we look to medical science for an answer or do we look at the Qur’an and the sunnah for the answer...

We use medical science. But even if we were to go by Qur'an and Hadith, none of it would contradict medical science and vice versa.

..I previously started a thread on this site suggesting that the Qur’an does not and should not have the answer to everything and this, I suggest, is an example of the point I was trying to make.

You are correct; the Qur'an doesn't provide EVERY answer to EVERYTHING and it never claimed to do that (that wasn't its purpose as a Holy book). It provides a lot of answers to a lot of things but it leaves plenty of room for you to make the connections and to expand on those teachings. The hadith/sunnah aid this by giving real examples from the Prophet.

[buddy1]

Im with Zahida on this one Im afraid, I would never or could never putting my girls or my son through that, i find it truely disturbing, I think kids grow up to fast these days anyway, they should be taught to enjoy their childhood for as long as possible, i was a young mother, i was jst 17 when we had the twins, and although i would never change them for the world, (maybe their eating habits!) I would have been quite happy to wait another couple of years to have them....... from having my twins so young i have a crumbling pelvis, meaning it probably would be safe for me to have anymore kids, which is fine by me now, 3 is quite enough but for a 9 year old to have a child and the orrifying possiblities of what could happen to her body afterwards is heartbreaking....... keep the children as children and the adults as adults, dont shift responsibilitys!

[AntiKarateKid]

Is everyone forgetting people back then had much shorter life spans?

They didnt exactly have the lifespan to take it easy and wait till they were 22 or 25 to get married.

For pete's sake people, they had an average lifespan of 50 years or so. Disease, famine, war, and poverty were extremely common.

Today's society lets us wait longer because we CAN, they COULDNT!

[AntiKarateKid]

It is a fact that pregnancy and childbirth in a girl whose body has not fully developed massively increases her chances of death or permanent physical and psychological damage.

I presume that any ‘civilised’ society puts the protection and well being of their children high on their list of priorities and would implement measures to protect its children. The question is how do we identify when a girl has the physical and mental capacity to safely have a baby? Do we look to medical science for an answer or do we look at the Qur’an and the sunnah for the answer. The Nigerian Government chose medical science; the Muslim states in the north chose the Qur’an! I previously started a thread on this site suggesting that the Qur’an does not and should not have the answer to everything and this, I suggest, is an example of the point I was trying to make.

See my post, the people had shorter lifespans back then. Keep talking about either choosing science or the Quran, you will get nowhere. Islam says it is not illegal to marry at a young age as long as no harm is incurred. Now, if a couple has the ability to wait, they should not force it upon the girl. If science shows that it is harmful, and a couple has the ability to wait, they should wait. Duh??

You seem to be under the impression that the Islam mandates young marriage which is far from the case. It simple does not outlaw it. It is a necessary part of life for some cultures who have no other choice.

In addition to this, I didnt see a single point you made on the other thread that showed that Islam did not have all the answers. It also looked like you completely ignored the hadith I provided in the thread too.

Once when the Prophet was deputing his companion Mu`adh to Yemen, he asked the latter,"What will you do if you have to decide a matter faced by you?" He replied, "I will decide it according to the Book of Allah." The Prophet further asked, "If you do not find anything about it in the Book of Allah, then what?" He answered, "In that case I’ll decide according to the Sunnah of the Prophet of Allah." At this the Prophet asked, "If you do not find anything in the Sunnah of the Prophet?" He said, "I’ll decide it with my own opinion (i.e. apply the reasoning power) and leave no stone unturned." Hearing this, the Prophet applauded, "Praise be to Allah who guided the apostle of the Prophet the methodology which the Prophet himself likes." (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

[TabTabiun]

That's the problem with religion though. It's a snapshot from an ancient culture that becomes locked into place instead of evolving with the rest of the world.

Muhammad had twelve wives, the youngest of which was nine years old. Since Islam says Muhammad was the greatest dude ever, I don't think you're going to find many Muslims who oppose doing what Muhammad did. However, I have seen some Muslims claim (without evidence) that puberty happened sooner back in the 7th century than it does today, so therefore marrying someone as young as Aisha today would be wrong.

I expect we'll see more claims like this from Muslims as Islamic culture continues to evolve. Christians used to think polygamy and marrying young girls was okay—because after all, King David had lots of wives and plenty of them were young. But Christian culture has evolved, and their interpretations of their holy text and heroic figures have evolved to suit.

Okay firstly the Lord of the worlds said that Prophet Muhammad Alayhis-Salaatu Was Salaam was the best example so their for he is. Another thing is that back thn it was not uncommon for young girls to get married that was there culture, if you would look back and study history would prove it. That may also be the reason why there was very rare to see illegitimate children.

[TabTabiun]

And age has nothing to do with anything when someone should/ could have chidren some 30 year old sarent ready for that while some 16 year olds are.

[Woodrow]

Last night I watched a TV documentary (Unreported World) reporting on child marriage in Nigeria and the devastating effects of pregnancy on girls so young. Many of the young girls die giving birth, most of the babies die and lots of girls end up with a condition called fistula which leaves them incontinent which in turn gets them ostracised by their husbands and local communities.

The Nigerian government has introduced a law (The Child Rights Act in 2003) making marriages to girls under 18 years illegal. All the non-Muslim states have adopted the law and all but one of the Muslim states have not adopted the law and the one state that has adopted the law have changed the line where it says girls must be 18 years old to girls must have reached puberty.

The reason the Muslim states have not adopted the law is because they suggest that Islam permits marriage at any age pointing to the Qur’an and sunnah as evidence. The reporter interviewed an imam who suggested that Islam permits marriage to a girl at any age but the husband should not consummate the marriage until the girl is old enough the safely have children!

I presume all the Muslims on this forum would agree that it is wrong to have sexual relations with a girl below a certain age and doubly wrong to endanger her life by making her pregnant and I presume that all of you would agree to that because you are all ‘educated.’ What I don’t understand is how (being educated) you strive to follow many other many of the other problematic customs of 7C Bedouin because of an hadith or the sunnah and how you reconcile that you should follow this hadith and not that or this sunnah and not that?

There are many aspects of this that are not understood by the non-Muslim world for the most part. Like wise those of us who are Muslim do not always understand non-Muslim concepts.

One big difference is in the concept of marriage. Our Nikkah is quite different from the non-Muslim concept of marriage. Marriage to us is not a sacrament or a religious ritual, it is a legal binding contract. Part of this contract does entail the right of sexual relationships, but the Nikkah is still valid if there is no physical consummation until after both parties have reached full maturity. That does happen in the case of young girls and it is not uncommon for the girl to live at home with her parents until she is mature. During this time an annulment can be granted the girl if she decides she does not love her husband before the Nikkah is consummated.

The fact that a couple is married under Nikkah does not always mean there will be physical relationships until after the girl is mature. In fact a man is forbidden to do anything that would cause his wife physical harm.

Because of the nature of the Nikkah, it is impossible to state a specific age at which it can be permitted.

[Hamayun]

It is a fact that pregnancy and childbirth in a girl whose body has not fully developed massively increases her chances of death or permanent physical and psychological damage.

I presume that any ‘civilised’ society puts the protection and well being of their children high on their list of priorities and would implement measures to protect its children. The question is how do we identify when a girl has the physical and mental capacity to safely have a baby? Do we look to medical science for an answer or do we look at the Qur’an and the sunnah for the answer. The Nigerian Government chose medical science; the Muslim states in the north chose the Qur’an! I previously started a thread on this site suggesting that the Qur’an does not and should not have the answer to everything and this, I suggest, is an example of the point I was trying to make.

Right 2 things you need to get through your head (these have been repeated over and over but you still don't get it)

1. The Quran doesn NOT claim to give answers to every question in the universe. It gives you general guidelines but also assumes you have some intelligence to know right from wrong for your own child...

2. The marriage of a child is entirely up to the parents. The Quran does not explicitly say "Marry your daughter at the age of 5". It gives you a lower limit starting from puberty but the ultimate decision is with the parents. This was more of a prevention than an encouragement of child marriages... The Quran is not holding a gun to anyone's head to force them to marry their kids off.

Stop making it look like the Quran encourages child marriages. Tunnel vision can be a terrible thing sometimes...

[S_87]

in the west there are many teenage pregnancies....even though there is a 'law' that the minimum age for sex is 16... which is stupid especially in the uk when they provide contraception. the law doesnt have the right to tell people at what age they can have sexual relations.. the difference is is islam before this there must be marriage

[Woodrow]

in the west there are many teenage pregnancies....even though there is a 'law' that the minimum age for sex is 16... which is stupid especially in the uk when they provide contraception. the law doesnt have the right to tell people at what age they can have sexual relations.. the difference is is islam before this there must be marriage

Very good point.

Reading through the posts here it does seem that the non-Muslims are under the impression that a girl must get married at a very young age. That is no different than if a Muslim sees that law and based on it assume a Christian Girl must be sexual active at the age of 16.

But, it strikes me as odd that it is legal for a girl to be sexually active at 16, but can not get married without parental consent at that age.

[AntiKarateKid]

Very good point.

Reading through the posts here it does seem that the non-Muslims are under the impression that a girl must get married at a very young age. That is no different than if a Muslim sees that law and based on it assume a Christian Girl must be sexual active at the age of 16.

But, it strikes me as odd that it is legal for a girl to be sexually active at 16, but can not get married without parental consent at that age.

I LOL'ed at that. It is soooooo true. Really, when I used to come home from highschool, I'd pass by the bus stop which had a bunch of catholic school girls waiting there. The way they behaved, especially around their boyfriends, ypu'd think that stapling their clothing onto them wouldnt even stop them.

To westerners, marriage is purely emotional. To easterners, it is both emotional and legal.

[Dawud_uk]

RE alleged pregnancy complications 'caused' by young marriage

you know i went to a very rough school in a rough town and lots of girls from my year had teenage pregnancies, not one of them developed these complications.

i think the problem is a lack of medical care and the fact that the best medical practitioners from places like nigeria are hovered up by the west for their medical services.

RE alleged problems 'caused' by young people having sex,

this is rediculous, young people in the west are having sex at earlier and earlier times, the only problems they are having is a huge increase in std's.

this is the hypocrisy of the west, and western secularist muslims like the reporter in this post. they see young people at it in every town and village, even sometimes let their sons and daughters bring home their bf/ gf for the night, but as soon as you want to make it right in accordance with Gods laws that is a crime and must be punished.

people are ready for marriage at different ages, i went through puberty very early and would say i could have married at 13 or 14 easily or perhaps younger with a little help from both sets of parents.

the problem is that in the west we retard the people as a society, starting with teens, giving them all these rights and little or no responsibility and then get all shocked when they behave in such bad ways.

personally i will raise my kids to be mature and used to responsibility from a younger age so if they wish to marry then they are welcome to it and have my blessing and would happily have my son or daughter in law stop with us whilst they finished educating themselves.

[Trumble]

But, it strikes me as odd that it is legal for a girl to be sexually active at 16, but can not get married without parental consent at that age.

Perhaps because there's just a 'bit' more involved in marriage than having sex?!

people are ready for marriage at different ages, i went through puberty very early and would say i could have married at 13 or 14 easily or perhaps younger with a little help from both sets of parents.

No offence, but if you really believe that you aren't anywhere near ready for marriage now, let alone then!

[Dawud_uk]

Perhaps because there's just a 'bit' more involved in marriage than having sex?!



No offence, but if you really believe that you aren't anywhere near ready for marriage now, let alone then!

ssshhhhhh then if you think that! please, keep quiet about it as my wife comes on here also.

more seriously, i wasnt referring to the sex part, though this is part of this also. i was referring to maturity, young adults rebel in the west because of the system of education and what society puts on them through peer pressure, media, music etc.

in other societies this doesnt happen (though the odd hormonal temper tantrum might), the young are raised to believe in responsibility not just rights and seem to get on just fine marrying young,

i am not suggesting that early marriage would solve all the problems in the west, but it is part of a greater whole system (called islam, submission to Allah) that would solve these problems.

[S_87]

Perhaps because there's just a 'bit' more involved in marriage than having sex?!

yup and dont forget theres a lot more involved in sexual relations than just the act..dont forget the part where the female possibly gets pregnant and is generally left as a single parent..something the west has a major problem with atm

[aamirsaab]

...
To westerners, marriage is purely emotional. To easterners, it is both emotional and legal.

This is really the crux of the matter and AKK hits the nail right on the head. Marriage has different meanings in different societies.

In Islam, it is much more than just ''Oh let's get married and be together''. The Islamic perspective does encompass that but it also many other things since marriage as a construct is so very closely linked to the family (which is quite possibly the most important construct in Islam).

I like to use the plant analogy (it is awesome and works with almost everything!); plants need to be in good condition (this means they need to be fed, watered and nurtured to a healthy leve). At a healthy level, this plant provides a fruit (let's call it an apple...because I like apples) For that plant to reproduce (come on, it produced a freaking apple!), it needs a bee - a healthy one at that. That bee does its thang and polenates another plant. And then you get two awesome plants producing apples :)

But if the first plant in question is not nurtured or cared for (like some plants) it becomes crappy. Then when that bee (healthy or not) polenates the other plant, you get two crappy ones and no apples :(.

So basically, if you don't provide this care and nurture initially, you're going to end up with some crappy plants. And yes sometimes you do everything right and some idiot steps on your plant and ruins all your apple source, but that's not your fault: you did everything right - it was just some walking-turd what decided to stand on your plants. (of course, what I am referring to in terms of marriage problems is a lot worse than what I've just written....but then you'd be crying. Told you the plant analogy was awesome!)

[جوري]

Ansar's post per regard to this topic were really excellent.. but I can't refine my search, and don't even want to search for my own input on the matter as usual has been discussed here a bit-- somethings are certainly done centuries ago were done for many different reasons, biological political, socioeconomic etc.. it is certainly not a fard to marry of a certain age, but being nubial as defined by religion at onset of puberty. western hypocrisy is designed so instead of correcting the problem, they correct the outcome, so you have 11 years olds engaging in sex or gangs then they have the talk or a man can cheat and it is more sensible than taking consent of his wife to have another.. but let me pose this for the fellow who thinks this is the 'problem with Islam' how did he feel when David of the Old Testament took a concubine on his death bed?

Abishag Was a young virgin from the town of Shunem, North of Jezreel and Mount Gilboa, in the territory of Issachar. (Jos 19:17-23) She was "beautiful in the extreme" and was chosen by David's servants to become the nurse and companion of the king during his final days.
see 1Ki 1:1-4.
David was now about 70 years of age (2Sa 5:4, 5), and as a result of debilitation he had little body heat. Abishag waited on him during the day, doubtless brightening the surroundings with her youthful freshness and beauty, and at night she "lay in the king's bosom"

or of being marriageable at 3 yrs of age?

by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

.'"In ancient (and not so ancient) times however, marriage was often-times celebrated at a rather young age. Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl may be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three.2 A boy may betroth and marry at the age of thirteen.3

[Q8sobieski]

you know i went to a very rough school in a rough town and lots of girls from my year had teenage pregnancies, not one of them developed these complications.

How would you know!?!?! Firstly, as you were a classmate, you WERE NOT their doctor. Secondly, you would also need to follow those girls and their medical situations over the course of 10 or more years to see if complications arose. Your sample is too small and your data-set is incomplete.

i think the problem is a lack of medical care and the fact that the best medical practitioners from places like nigeria are hovered up by the west for their medical services.

Are you actually blaming the West and our asylum and immigration rules for the problems with child marriages in Nigeria!?!?! Many of these foreign doctors were trained in the West and simply refused to return home after their study. It is rare that Nigerian or other 3rd World trained doctors ever practice medicine in the West. Their degrees are usually not accepted by our state licensing boards.

young people in the west are having sex at earlier and earlier times, the only problems they are having is a huge increase in std's.

The problem IS NOT that a 15 y/o girl has intercourse. While it is not advisable, it is generally not unhealthy to do so. It is, however, VERY UNHEALTHY for her to carry a child at that age. A girl that age may be ready for sex but she is certainly NOT ready for pregnancy. I will admit that a problem in the West has been a de-coupling of sex and pregnancy. I think that relationship needs to be re-established. In the West now, sex is about emotional gratification and pregnancies are "accidents".

this is the hypocrisy of the west, and western secularist muslims like the reporter in this post. they see young people at it in every town and village, even sometimes let their sons and daughters bring home their bf/ gf for the night, but as soon as you want to make it right in accordance with Gods laws that is a crime and must be punished.

It is not hypocrisy. As an earlier poster noted, I think it was aamirsaab, there is a profound difference between the conception of marriage in Christianity (the West) and Islam. Marriage is a religious sacrament and is considered life-long (although protestants often allow divorce) whereas Muslims see it more as a practical arrangements. It is for that reason that Westerners look the other way at underage sex but see underage marriage akin to blasphemy.

people are ready for marriage at different ages, i went through puberty very early and would say i could have married at 13 or 14 easily or perhaps younger with a little help from both sets of parents.

You would not have been ready for marriage within the context of the West. You may have been ready to sire offspring but that is only a small part of marriage in the Western conception of the sacrament. Note: even though Europe is secular, it is the Christian and Jewish concepts of marriage that have been enshrined as the highest laws-of-the-land concerning marriage. Most secular Westerners are not even aware that their laws are Judeo-Christian in their origin.

Unfortunately, this thread makes me wonder if it is at all possible for Muslims and non-Muslims to live together in the same society. That would be a topic for another thread, though.

[Q8sobieski]

Is everyone forgetting people back then had much shorter life spans?

They didnt exactly have the lifespan to take it easy and wait till they were 22 or 25 to get married.

For pete's sake people, they had an average lifespan of 50 years or so. Disease, famine, war, and poverty were extremely common.

Today's society lets us wait longer because we CAN, they COULDNT!

You are partially right. Life spans were roughly the same then as they are now. People are biologically and genetically little different today than they were 2000 or even 20,000 years ago. What has changed is mortality rates, not actual life spans. If a person survived being born and early childhood and then never got mixed up in a war, plague, or famine, that person could expect to probably live 60 or 70 years like people today.

Similarly, the onset of puberty can display great variability then as now. Excellent pre-natal nutrition and care coupled with excellent childhood nutrition and care will produce very early menstruation but that does not mean that the process of puberty is complete and adulthood has arrived. Today, it is not uncommon for a girl to start menstruating at 11 or 12 years old. But that DOES NOT indicate by any stretch that the same girl's pelvis has sufficiently widened to allow a safe childbirth. That is usually done around the age of 16. Maturation is a process. It is not a switch that is suddenly switched from the "off" to the "on" position.

And, on a side note: I have never actually seen any evidence that indicates that girls in hot climates menstruate or mature earlier. I have also never seen evidence that indicates that people matured faster (physically) 2000 years ago than they do today.

----------
From http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm

"May 25, 2006: The online edition of the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel reports that German girls and boys continue the trend of earlier first menstruation and first ejaculation.
Emeritus Professor Norbert Kluge of the Universität Koblenz-Landau wrote in the Internet publication "Beiträge zur Sexualwissenschaft und Sexualpädagogik" that girls in 1992 had their first period on average at 12.2 years old and in 2010 will have it around 10 or 11 years of age.
Researchers noted the trend 140 years ago. In 1860 the average menarche happened at 16.6 years, in 1920 at 14.6, in 1950 at 13.1 and 1980, 12.5 years.
Kluge attributed the early maturation mostly to obesity caused by fast food. Lack of fat can also stop menstruation, which is what happens with anorexia."

----------

[Silver]

I think that in the earlier days of islam, the muslim society was more just. The prophet (PBUH) married Aisha but with her consent...
But people changed over the years and now if they wanna marry off a young girl, they will not ask for her consent.
My grandmother got married when she was 12. My grandfather was 17. They had my uncle a year later. Neither of them wanted to get married...eventually, my grandfather married another woman and my grandmother suffered...and that's just one case. I've heard many similar stories...
What is happening nowadays, is that they will not ask the girl if she wants to get married...they will make her do it wether she likes it or not.
So to avoid such situations, I think that laws shouldn't allow marriage before a certain age...

[Q8sobieski]

I think that in the earlier days of islam, the muslim society was more just. The prophet (PBUH) married Aisha but with her consent...

She was six!!!! I would have consented to giving up my kidney when I was 6 if I thought I would get candy at the end of the procedure!

[aamirsaab]

She was six!!!! I would have consented to giving up my kidney when I was 6 if I thought I would get candy at the end of the procedure!

She was previously engaged to another guy but turned him down. Does that make you feel better?

[ayesha309]

She (May Allah be pleased with her) grew up in the house of Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him). She was born after Islam came, and learnt the importance of Islam and the pRophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) at a very young age....she was a VERY intelligent woman. She knew what she was doing and whom she was marrying...
furthermore, bro amirsaab has also given good evidence to prove she knew what she was doing.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Guys, the issue isn't about consent before marriage.


Let me explain;

Usually, a marriage contract may take place - where there is an agreement between the guardian of the child, and the other person who will get married, that the marriage can take place. No consumation [sex] takes place etc. Also keep in mind that Aisha remained with her family until she became mature [at the age of 9], this is when she moved in with Allah's Messenger.

Then, when the child has reached puberty - they have the choice of going ahead with the marriage, i.e. consumation and the whole idea of marriage, or rejecting it. If they reject it [now that they're mentally, physically, emotionally mature] - the marriage can be cancelled/annulled.


If a girl isn't pleased with her marriage;

Al-Khansaa’ bint Khidaam complained to the Prophet that her father wanted her to marry someone she didn’t want, saying “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.” The Prophet said, “Then this marriage is INVALID, go and marry whomever you wish.” Al-Khansaa’ said, “I had actually accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters” (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them).

(Fath Al-Barî Ibn Hajr, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Why are these types of marriages permitted?

1) There's nothing which says this has to be done, its purely based on cultural practises. Usually due to joining families, strengthening relationships between different groups of people etc. Two tribes may be at war and may unite if there is a marriage between them to connect them together.


2) The guardian is responsible to give their offspring good people to marry, i.e. pious, someone of an equal position i.e. its recommended for a woman to marry someone who is of an equal status or higher status to her in societies eyes, so that she does not feel let down.

The guardian can't abuse this position, rather he is the guardian so he has to fulfill his duty. Not abuse this duty. He chooses her the best person he is able.


3) It's not always that the family is rich, a man may have 10 daughters and no sons. He may find it hard to provide for them, so he may marry his daughter to a good person, and that person may support the one he is married to financially, since she is his wife.

Without this aid, God knows what could happen [some societies may even send their daughters off to prostitution so the family can have the basic necessities of food, shelter etc.] Islam provides ways out of hard situations through the wisdom of Allah.

In regard to Aisha, its been explained before that Aisha was fit and mature and she knew herself well, more than any of us;

Imam Ibn kathir (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates a hadith in his Al-Bidayah wa-Nihayah:"Imam Bukhari (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates another hadith which he heard from Farwa bin abi al-Mughria who heard from 'Ali bin Masher who heard from Hisham bin 'Urawh who heard from his father who reports from 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her), who said: 'When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was betrowth to me, I was six years old. Later, when we migrated from Makkah to Medina and satyed at bin harith bin khdhrj's place, I had grown up. My hair had got longer and I had physically matured; however, I still used to play with other girls...I was nine years old at that time."

Source Page 210-211

Just because people are brought up to be like teenagers or children throughout their lives in todays times, it doesn't mean that this was the case then or at other times in history. Usama ibn Zayd lead a whole battalion at the age of 16 to Syria/Sham during the death of Prophet Muhammad/early caliphate of Abu Bakr.

So without a doubt, people were way maturer and were brought up to be adults during their young adulthood. Their hot climate also enhanced their physical growth, and their ways of life did also.

So they weren't children, they were young adults.

[NobleMuslimUK]

OK, let me add my 2 cents, people in different parts of the world work differently. In poorer countries and many muslim countries girls do mature faster, not just physically but mentally. The reasons for this are they are laden with more responsibilities, such as house chores, babysitting younger siblings or cousins, they are taught to cook, sew clothes, and many girls due to poverty have to work in other peoples houses as servants to earn a living. Such girls learn a lot from a young age and are mentally ready aswell when they hit puberty and are very capable of being married off, they are not seen as childs anymore but as young women.
In the west its all different, most girls treated as kids so they behave like kids till a certain age even though they are physically developed they are not mentally capable of handling a relationship as such.
It is sad to see so many young people in the west engage in sex and maintaining virginity is frowned upon in schools, so most are led by peer pressure to lose their virginity and end up in unwanted pregnancies and u have girls becoming mother who still need mothering themselves yet. So therefore we cant apply the western perception of young age marriages to everywhere. The western media certainly put their spin on such stories and in eventually comes down to ignorant non-muslims and muslims alike who start questioning and reasoning about the marriage of the Prophet PBUH with Aisha RA.
Islam simply gives us a guideline if a decent proposal has come for a girl and u think she is ready to be married off then make sure she has reached puberty and dont just go by her mental capabilities thats all.

[Q8sobieski]

OK, let me add my 2 cents, people in different parts of the world work differently. In poorer countries and many muslim countries girls do mature faster, not just physically but mentally.

This is just flat out untrue. You have no scientific data to support the idea that girls PHYSICALLY mature faster in Muslim countries. Whether or not girls emotionally mature faster is a different matter. I am willing to argue that modern Western males have the longest mental maturation period, often taking about 35-40 years. But you cannot say that about biologic maturation. The body doesn't know if it is Muslim, Bhuddist, Christian, or Heathen. A child of 10 is a child physically no matter her intellect or her climate.

[جوري]

Being of nubile age from a 'religious not state' stand point is when you have reached the end point of puberty and that is the onset of Menses in the case of the female... Menses in science is defined between the ages of 9-16, anything above or below said ages should be medically investigated. There is certainly no religious law enforcing marriage upon puberty, and certainly the practices of 600 AD Arabia or 1885 United States of America

American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen,

http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm


aren't particularly applicable today.

Here is an article from the New England Journal of Medicine though not important in whole, explains in part that, that the puberty isn't unvarying in nature, and it certainly the conception of many respected in their fields that puberty starts earlier than it did in the U.S, or later in some other parts of Europe.. so we can't really apply the science of today to a hundred yrs ago or two thousand yrs ago, whether in Arabia or the U.S

Hope that helps

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PreviousVolume 353:1752-1753

October 20, 2005

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Abnormalities in Puberty: Scientific and Clinical Advances

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(Endocrine Development. Vol. 8.) Edited by Henriette A. Delemarre-van de Waal. 181 pp., illustrated. Basel, Switzerland, Karger, 2005. $149.25. ISBN 3-8055-7867-9.
This volume in the Endocrine Development series is a collection of state-of-the-art reviews, plus two chapters presenting original data. All chapters but one originate from European centers, and all authors are well respected in their fields.
There is a perception in the United States, not accepted by all, that puberty now starts at an earlier age than it did a few decades ago. In the introductory chapter, Delemarre-van de Waal reports that the age of puberty is stable in Europe, with some areas actually reporting a later age of onset than has been reported in the past. She also reviews genetic and nutritional influences on the process. Karges and de Roux pursue the genetic theme with isolated hypogonadism, bringing the reader up to date on all the reported mutations of the hypothalamic–pituitary axis.
With glucocorticoids being given to mothers of children who may be delivered prematurely and to mothers of children with virilizing congenital adrenal hyperplasia, and with cortisol levels increasing in neonates under stress, a question arises as to whether such factors affect the age of onset of puberty. Ong discusses the present understanding of the effects of fetal and neonatal glucocorticoid physiology on puberty, using information derived from studies of children and animals. Delemarre-van de Waal and her colleagues present data from their longitudinal observations of children who were small for gestational age at birth, as well as results from studies of puberty in rodents with fetal undernutrition. Polycystic ovary syndrome is one of the constellation of disorders that occur in small-for-gestational-age children, and Homburg reviews the diagnosis, pathophysiology, and treatment of polycystic ovary syndrome, emphasizing the need for a high index of suspicion in cases of persistent oligomenorrhea or other manifestations of excessive androgen production in teenage girls.
Jung and colleagues present a thorough review of what is known and what is postulated concerning the relation between hypothalamic hamartomas and precocious puberty. Since medical therapy is recommended for these masses in sensitive locations of the central nervous system, the chapter by Heger and colleagues on 20-year outcomes of treatment with gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonists is a welcome addition and a demonstration of the many beneficial effects of treatment in appropriately selected subjects (their list of indications for treatment is also practical). Johansson and Ritzén present several decades of follow-up data on the psychosocial effects of early menarche (that occurring before 11 years), which suggest more norm-breaking behavior during adolescence and lower educational levels later, all apparently related to initiation of sexual activity at a young age as a result of early development.
Bone health is important for all young people, especially in this age of inadequate calcium and vitamin D intake by children. Vanderschueren and colleagues review the latest knowledge about bone density in people with various forms of gonadal failure and the effects of therapy, and they discuss delayed puberty in the context of calcium and vitamin D intake. It has now been well over 50 years since glucocorticoid therapy for congenital adrenal hyperplasia was first used; Otten and colleagues review the results of this treatment on growth, puberty, and subsequent fertility in children with this disorder. Remarkable successes in cancer therapy allow us to turn attention to previously unthinkable issues, such as fertility in survivors of childhood cancer. Beerendonk and Braat review the effects of radiation and chemotherapy on future fertility and many aspects of the preservation of fertility, ranging from ovarian transplantation to cryopreservation of ovarian tissue or ova.
Although there are variations, the overarching themes of the book are the long-term effects of fetal life on puberty and the long-term effects of puberty on later life. Although a book of this size cannot fully cover all aspects of pubertal development, the chosen aspects are of importance to clinicians, and the often encyclopedic references will be of use to researchers in the field as well.

Dennis M. Styne, M.D.
University of California, Davis, Medical Center
Sacramento, CA 95817
dmstyne@ucdavis.edu

[Thinker]

I, personally, would not argue for or against polygamy and I can also see difficulties on agreeing on a number to define the age at which sexual relationships are or are nor appropriate. Both those questions are a matter of culture and opinion. The age or stage of development at which it safe for a female to give birth is not a matter of opinion and should not be a matter of culture because we have sound advice given us by medical science.

When I started this thread I made some presumptions – I said “I presume all the Muslims on this forum would agree that it is wrong to have sexual relations with a girl below a certain age and doubly wrong to endanger her life by making her pregnant.” Reading through some of these posts it appears I was wrong!

What surprises me most is that some females here (who clearly know more about their physical capabilities than I) seek to try and justify putting the well being of a child at risk by suggesting that the age at which it safe for a girl to bear a child is the onset of puberty rather than the completion of puberty. I wonder if they do that because they believe it is more important to follow the sunnah than to protect the well being of young girls (which is exactly what the Muslim leaders in Northern Nigeria are doing).

[S_87]

What surprises me most is that some females here (who clearly know more about their physical capabilities than I) seek to try and justify putting the well being of a child at risk by suggesting that the age at which it safe for a girl to bear a child is the onset of puberty rather than the completion of puberty. I wonder if they do that because they believe it is more important to follow the sunnah than to protect the well being of young girls (which is exactly what the Muslim leaders in Northern Nigeria are doing).

put northern nigeria aside for a second and think of your own society. is there such a problem with the well being of the girls?

[MO783]

:sl:

I think this one os for the scholars. Its very hard to say, I would say its very difficult for a young girl to marry to a very early age.

I think people forget that our prophet did marry Hazrat Aisha ra at an early age but did not have any relationship with her until later on.

[S_87]

:sl:



I think people forget that our prophet did marry Hazrat Aisha ra at an early age but did not have any relationship with her until later on.

she was 9....

[Thinker]

put northern nigeria aside for a second and think of your own society. is there such a problem with the well being of the girls?

Do two wrongs make a right?

[S_87]

Do two wrongs make a right?

Im not going to debate the issue of whether its wrong or right- you said:

I wonder if they do that because they believe it is more important to follow the sunnah than to protect the well being of young girls

the well being is what im interested in

[جوري]

I, personally, would not argue for or against polygamy and I can also see difficulties on agreeing on a number to define the age at which sexual relationships are or are nor appropriate. Both those questions are a matter of culture and opinion. The age or stage of development at which it safe for a female to give birth is not a matter of opinion and should not be a matter of culture because we have sound advice given us by medical science.

Giving birth too early or too late is bad it is true.. doesn't change the fact that it happens anyway, even in the west, I have assisted in the delivery of a 13 year old -- you can't really stop them even when passing BCP to them as young as 11 yrs of age

A school in Maine, US, is to make birth control pills available to middle school children as young as 11 through its health centre. According to an Associated Press (AP) report, the decision was made in a school committee meeting earlier this week following a request from the school's health centre to make the pills available to children of high school age who were still attending middle school.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/86051.php

You can't really beat people into not marrying or having children early, even in the 'civilized west' but there are places in the world where the life expectancy is 44 yrs of age, babies having babies is more an economic and social status epidemic than anything.

When I started this thread I made some presumptions – I said “I presume all the Muslims on this forum would agree that it is wrong to have sexual relations with a girl below a certain age and doubly wrong to endanger her life by making her pregnant.” Reading through some of these posts it appears I was wrong!

But you seem to be under the assumption that 'Muslims' or 'westerners' are able to stop it. Which is clearly not the case, in the west they pass BCP, in some parts of the world they impose that you must first marry as a deterrent..

What surprises me most is that some females here (who clearly know more about their physical capabilities than I) seek to try and justify putting the well being of a child at risk by suggesting that the age at which it safe for a girl to bear a child is the onset of puberty rather than the completion of puberty. I wonder if they do that because they believe it is more important to follow the sunnah than to protect the well being of young girls (which is exactly what the Muslim leaders in Northern Nigeria are doing).

There is nothing in Sunna that states marry at onset of puberty in fact I challenge you to bring me such a hadith!


cheers

[جوري]

BTW as an addendum now that I read your first post Nigerians aren't Muslim, at least I am not aware that they are!
all the Nigerians I have encountered were Christians!

[Thinker]

There is nothing in Sunna that states marry at onset of puberty in fact I challenge you to bring me such a hadith!

I am not sure where the suggestion came from that Islam decrees marriage by a certain age; I have never said that. I think it is unarguable that certain cultures, for cultural and possibly practical reasons decree an early age for the marriage of girls and justify it by pointing to Islamic text and the sunnah.

Regarding the point of onset or end of puberty - I had a quick look for the post and couldn't find it but I am sure that at least one female here suggested that the onset of puberty was the identifying stage at which a girl could marry. I believe that female puberty starts progresses over a period of time and ends. I can't find anything defining the end of puberty but presume it is the point when the metamorphous is complete and without any qualifications believe that would normally be about the age of 18 years.

[جوري]

I am not sure where the suggestion came from that Islam decrees marriage by a certain age; I have never said that. I think it is unarguable that certain cultures, for cultural and possibly practical reasons decree an early age for the marriage of girls and justify it by pointing to Islamic text and the sunnah.

It is preferable to marry young, but when you say looking at 'sunnah', well the prophet married a woman 20 yrs his senior, and the others were widowed so there is really no winning in that argument. It isn't a fard that you marry of a certain age. Further I need to clarify that puberty and onset of menses are two very separate categories . Puberty is a process that takes three yrs and involves the pituitary/hypothalamic/ovarian(testicular) axis, now in the case of the female, if she is menstural at 16 that means puberty started for her at age 13.. it wouldn't be appropriate for her from a purely religious standpoint to be married at 13 because she is not of age.. of age means having started mensturation. Naturally I assumed that most people who write here would be aware of the difference. Puberty is a series of steps that ends in a follicle release.

Regarding the point of onset or end of puberty - I had a quick look for the post and couldn't find it but I am sure that at least one female here suggested that the onset of puberty was the identifying stage at which a girl could marry. I believe that female puberty starts progresses over a period of time and ends. I can't find anything defining the end of puberty but presume it is the point when the metamorphous is complete and without any qualifications believe that would normally be about the age of 18 years.

luckily I have already answered this already read my above paragraph.. 'suggested' probably an inference from an unclear explanation. One tends to think that this sort of thing is naturally understood by all as it is taught in fifth grade health class. Puberty involves many steps thelarche, hair growth, darkening of skin etc etc and ending in menarche and that is basically what is being denoted here as the approproate 'starting point' of being married.. but again, no laws enforce marriage at that age.. you can marry of any age!

It is merely the difference between state law or religious law. I don't know what is the law from state to state, whether 14 or 16.. etc.. some people don't menstruate until 16, it wouldn't then be appropriate for them to marry at 13.. I hope that I have made it clearer?

cheers

[Q8sobieski]

BTW as an addendum now that I read your first post Nigerians aren't Muslim, at least I am not aware that they are!
all the Nigerians I have encountered were Christians!

There is a north-south split in Nigeria. Northerners are of the Hausa tribe and are mostly Muslim. The states of northern Nigeria live under Shariah Law. The southern Nigerians are Yoruba and Igbo and they are almost always Christian or ... uhhh ... heathen. If you met a Nigerian OUTSIDE of Nigeria; the odds are you met a (Christian) Igbo. They are notoriously mobile both inside and outside Nigeria. The Muslim Hausa are a stay-at-home sort of tribe.

[جوري]

Do two wrongs make a right?

Greetings:

I wouldn't personally attach a moral tag to this.. it is unfortunate that it happens, and you'll find that, this indeed happens in all societies. I believe the reason she makes mentions of it, because it is rather odd to point an event that happens in a remote region of the world when it occurs as well in your own backyard :)

the Question is, is it moral to stop folks from doing what they desire to do? in a not so distant past (in the civilized west) they used to sterilize folks whom the state deemed not fit to be parents (mentally unwell) and such.. to me it is a worst crime to prevent people from a basic need and instinct rather than shrug their shoulder with a disapproving nod


cheers

[Whatsthepoint]

the Question is, is it moral to stop folks from doing what they desire to do? in a not so distant past (in the civilized west) they used to sterilize folks whom the state deemed not fit to be parents (mentally unwell) and such.. to me it is a worst crime to prevent people from a basic need and instinct rather than shrug their shoulder with a disapproving nod

I don't suppose you feel the same about homosexuals?

[جوري]

I don't suppose you feel the same about homosexuals?

This isn't a homosexual thread?...
further, I feel about all pre-marital and extramarital sex the same way.. Homosexuals have to engage in sex outside of marriage and their marriages aren't recognized by God.. so there is really no point in comparison?


cheers

[Hamayun]

I don't suppose you feel the same about homosexuals?

I admire your ability to turn any discussion into one about homosexuality... how do you do it? No really?

[Whatsthepoint]

This isn't a homosexual thread?...
further, I feel about all pre-marital and extramarital sex the same way.. Homosexuals have to engage in sex outside of marriage and their marriages aren't recognized by God.. so there is really no point in comparison?


cheers

It was just a question.
Btw, that french thing was an advice not an insult.

[Whatsthepoint]

I admire your ability to turn any discussion into one about homosexuality... how do you do it? No really?

It takes years of practice.

[جوري]

It was just a question.

My entire view here is within the confines of marriage.. and in Islam marriage has to be a woman's decision, outside of her consent is considered null -- thus there can be no doubt when it comes to the concept of morality.. Do I approve of an 11 year old using BCP no, if she is ready for the responsibilities of sex, she is ready for the responsibilities of marriage.. what marriage does is not only make this an impossibility in the sense again of religious duties as one of the conditions of marriage is financial independence a dowry of her choosing as well in case of a divorce in other words if he simply wishes to take her for a ride he'll think twice given the financial burden and above all her consent-- not many 'children' are able to bear that responsibility so they desist all together.. far better than simply passing condoms or BCP hoping they'll use them-- in some places these conditions can be met, thus it is better for them indeed to be married than simply jumping from one bed to the next .. if you look at it entirely from the context of religion, you'll find that it is designed for the best interest of all parties involved especially the woman -- how this all applies to homosexuals is beyond me.. these terms are defined only within the confines of marriage, and again marriage is a contract before God, and God has already defined for us what marriage means.. a contract between man and woman not man & man or woman and woman. what folks wish to do outside of religion has no room in this topic, as I have already defined for you that my morality is shaped by religion not state law (that is to say state law finds gay marriages moral)

Btw, that french thing was an advice not an insult.

I didn't take it as an insult, since I didn't persoanlly write it.. other than that, I don't have a special keys board and getting words to meet with your approval isn't my top priority, I am not a language teacher!

cheers