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Ali.
01-05-2009, 04:50 PM
The award-winning feminist writer Taslima Nasreen, who is under death-threat from Islamist extremists, is to be housed in an artist's studio paid for by the city of Paris, more than a decade after she was forced into exile from her native Bangladesh.

Nasreen's outspoken stance on what she calls the inherent misogyny of conservative Muslim society in Bangladesh has sparked protests, riots and warrants for her arrest as well as a cash reward for her decapitation by religious fundamentalists.

In 1994, the former doctor was accused of blasphemy over her novel Lajja (Shame), which described the life of a Hindu family persecuted in Muslim-majority Bangladesh. The book was banned for offending Muslim religious sentiments.

She was quoted by an Indian newspaper saying the Qur'an should be rewritten because it was "unfair to women" and was forced to flee Bangladesh, even though she denied the comments and said she had been referring to sharia law.

After travelling across Europe and the US, and living in exile in India, where her presence led to threats and violent protests, and more recently in Sweden, she applied for housing in Paris six weeks ago. She is expected to move in next month.

Her case had become a cause celebre in France and she was made an honorary citizen of Paris last July.

The mayor, Bertrand Delanoë, called her a freedom fighter, and said: "You have been chased out of your home because you raised your voice against the inhumanity of fanaticism. You are at home here, in this city where men are born and live free and equal."

Nasreen did not comment on the move, but she recently told the TV station France 24 that she felt safe in Paris, because she could walk in the street without bodyguards. She said her "idea" was not to criticise Islam per se but to defend women's rights and freedom. "My aim is to raise consciousness, to struggle for justice for women, so I have no alternative but to criticise Islam because Islam oppresses women. I know millions of women have been suffering because of religion, tradition, culture and customs and I feel a responsibility to do something."

She left Kolkata last year after violent protests and for several months lived in a secret safe house in Delhi, which she likened to "solitary confinement".

Source


saying the Qur'an should be rewritten because it was "unfair to women"
Lol?
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Vito
01-05-2009, 06:32 PM
I think instead of people chasing her and trying to lock her up or even kill her, they should of fought her back with the words of the Qua'ran and try to teach her as we do here to people who think woman have no right in Islam, no matter how hard headed she may be. Sometimes people let their emotions get the best of them and that isn't always the smartest thing to do. Now we come out as looking bad once again. We need to control ourselves
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UmmahFollower09
01-05-2009, 06:43 PM
I agree with what the brother said. If we kept our emotions in check and fought back with the words of the Quran and Sunnah she would have realized what she was saying was wrong and tht Islam actually promotes equality between men and women.
If we don't keep our emotions in check we always seem to be viewed or portrayed as "isalmic extremists" or "fundamentalists"

Jazakallah Khairan for this
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 07:56 PM
I too think it is unfair to women, it may have been fair and revolutionary to the women of the 6th century Arabia, but it is in many ways unfair to contemporary women.
Anyway, back on topic, its good the city accepted her.
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Ali.
01-05-2009, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I too think it is unfair to women, it may have been fair and revolutionary to the women of the 6th century Arabia, but it is in many ways unfair to contemporary women.
Anyway, back on topic, its good the city accepted her.
What do you mean by 'it'? Do you mean the Qur'an?
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
What do you mean by 'it'? Do you mean the Qur'an?
Islam, Quran and the sunnah.
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rpwelton
01-05-2009, 08:02 PM
I think many times women such as Ms. Nasreen are victims of cultural distortions of Islam (for instance, in Saudi Arabia, women can't drive). I don't think there is a (Muslim majority) country in the world that gives women the rights they had at the time of Muhammad SAW.
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Ali.
01-05-2009, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Islam, Quran and the sunnah.
Can you elaborate on your answer please? Give examples, etc.
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
I think many times women such as Ms. Nasreen are victims of cultural distortions of Islam (for instance, in Saudi Arabia, women can't drive). There is probably no (Muslim majority) country in the world that gives women the rights they had at the time of Muhammad SAW.
I agree completely.
Albania and Turkey may. They're both secular and trying to join the EU.
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
Can you elaborate on your answer please? Give examples, etc.
There's a lot of examples, we can go one by one, though I have no doubt several Islamic sites hold the answer for each and every one of them.
Shall we go one by one?
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Ali.
01-05-2009, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There's a lot of examples, we can go one by one, though I have no doubt several Islamic sites hold the answer for each and every one of them.
Shall we go one by one?
I just want to understand your reasoning behind what you said; do you think it is Islam that is unfair, or the way it is practised? Two separate things. If it's the former then please give two examples.
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جوري
01-05-2009, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There's a lot of examples, we can go one by one, though I have no doubt several Islamic sites hold the answer for each and every one of them.
Shall we go one by one?
You should indeed!
let's have at it!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
I just want to understand your reasoning behind what you said; do you think it is Islam that is unfair, or the way it is practised? Two separate things. If it's the former then please give two examples.
Islam itself.
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Ali.
01-05-2009, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Islam itself.
Extremely brief; I believe I politely asked you to elaborate, if possible.
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You should indeed!
let's have at it!
No linking to existing threads.
No changing the subject?
Deal?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
Extremely brief; I believe I politely asked you to elaborate, if possible.
I will, I'm waiting for Skye to agree to my terms.
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha
How about you create a new topic for why you think Islam is unfair to women, WTP? :)
I'm actually against debating it, since there are several threads dealing with individual cases and basically most Muslims are convinced with Muslim explanations and mots non-Muslims aren't. These things don't seem to work math way math does.
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جوري
01-05-2009, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No linking to existing threads.
No changing the subject?
Deal?
How would you like it, my word against yours? I have absolutely no problems with that, I only source for credibility.. trust me it is more time consuming otherwise..

Go for it!

If there is one thing I despise is a non-muslim speaking on my behalf as a Muslim woman!
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
How would you like it, my word against yours? I have absolutely no problems with that, I only source for credibility.. trust me it is more time consuming otherwise..

Go for it!

If there is one thing I despise is a non-muslim speaking on my behalf as a Muslim woman!
I'm not saying a woman can't be happy with it.
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جوري
01-05-2009, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm not saying a woman can't be happy with it.
You said, 'You don't want links or outside sources' in other words everyone speaking out of their a$$.. in fact, before I search for a particular hadith or verse, I usually know exactly what I am looking for it is a matter of rummaging for numbers that others can verify.. I have a perfectly good idea what you'll allege and I know exactly how misinformed you are.. It is not a matter of a woman being happy with it or not..
Some subjects are an issue of creed.. for instance why do men have to undergo a circumcision (it is barbaric) and unnecessary (even if it were true) it is part of the covenant, somethings are done for the pleasure of God, not the pleasure of people.. It is one of those things like when you sign for a job and don't like your vacation or insurance plan... Things aren't decided on the whimsy of men this is divine law.. if you build your faith on logic, then those parts of it that seem illogical simply come with the territory until it is later manifest to man why it is so.. or until the day or recompense happens and reasons for it unraveled then!
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Ali.
01-05-2009, 08:27 PM
Alright, I want no major derailing here, just speaking in general this is not directed at anyone. Whatsthepoint, are you going to post your examples?
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You said, 'You don't want links or outside sources' in other words everyone speaking out of their a$$.. in fact, before I search for a particular hadith or verse, I usually know exactly what I am looking for it is a matter of rummaging for numbers that others can verify.. I have a perfectly good idea what you'll allege and I know exactly how misinformed you are.. It is not a matter of a woman being happy with it or not..
Some subjects are an issue of creed.. for instance why do men have to undergo a circumcision (it is barbaric) and unnecessary (even if it were true) it is part of the covenant, somethings are done for the pleasure of God, not the pleasure of people.. It is one of those things like when you sign for a job and don't like your vacation or insurance plan... Things aren't decided on the whimsy of men this is divine law.. if you build your faith on logic, then those parts of it that seem illogical simply come with the territory until it is later manifest to man why it is so.. or until the day or recompense happens and reasons for it unraveled then!
I said no linking to existing threads, that doesn't include outside sources.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I said no linking to existing threads, that doesn't include outside sources.
Some of the existing threads already have the answers, what is the point of finding it else where and not here.. do you just want to recycle the same old rhetoric?
If you have questioned, and you were given the sufficient response-- it is really not anyone's problem what you deem fair or unfair.. that is your own mind at work and has no basis in reality!~

anyhow, I don't want to have fifty thousand posts dancing around a subject, if you have a query pose it already!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Some of the existing threads already have the answers, what is the point of finding it else where and not here.. do you just want to recycle the same old rhetoric?
If you have questioned, and you were given the sufficient response-- it is really not anyone's problem what you deem fair or unfair.. that is your own mind at work and has no basis in reality!~

anyhow, I don't want to have fifty thousand posts dancing around a subject, if you have a query pose it already!
I said I didn't want to debate, I merely expressed my opinion that Islam give less rights to women that a modern secular state.
Obviously the answers were sufficient for you, but not for everyone else.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok.
1. Why women can't be heads of state?
Safety on the job for starters!

'This distinction between equality and sameness is of paramount importance. Equality is desirable, just and fair; but sameness is not. People are not created identical but they are created equals. With this distinction in mind, there is no room to imagine that woman is inferior to man. There is no ground to assume that she is less important than he just because her rights are not identically the same as his. Had her status been identical with his, she would have been simply a duplicate of him, which she is not. The fact that Islam gives her equal rights - but not identical - shows that it takes her into due consideration, acknowledges her, and recognizes her independent personality'
Thus let me answer your Q with another Q-- has the U.S ever had a woman president? Do the people want a woman president? Do women themselves want to be president with all that that job entails? by same token do you have women sanitation engineers-- the ones who pick up garbage? How about Women competing against men in the Olympics? Before you question a particular proscription, you must find logic behind it.. If you can come up with a legitimate reason why in such events as the Olympics, women compete against women and men compete against men can you make that leap of why no women presidents.. that is not to say, they can't hold governmental shari3a jobs..
be that as it may, There were in fact women heads of state as far back as 12th century, something that still hasn't happened in the USA in the twenty first.. like Queen Arwa of Jiblah and recently, Bhutto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwa_al-Sulayhi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto

What Islam has established for woman is that which suits her nature, gives her full security and protects her against disgraceful circumstances and uncertain channels of life.


you know akin to



or



perhaps the day you can guarantee a woman security in such a job, would there be no divine wisdom in a woman holding such a position!




1- Woman is recognized by Islam as a full and equal partner of man in the procreation of humankind. He is the father; she is the mother, and both are essential for life. Her role is not less vital than his. By this partnership she has an equal share in every aspect; she is entitled to equal rights; she undertakes equal responsibilities, and in her there are as many qualities and as much humanity as there are in her partner.

To this equal partnership in the reproduction of human kind Allah says:

(O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made `you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.) (Al-Hujurat 49: 13)

2- She is equal to man in bearing personal and common responsibilities and in receiving rewards for her deeds. She is acknowledged as an independent personality, in possession of human qualities and worthy of spiritual aspirations. Her human nature is neither inferior to nor deviant from that of man. Both are members of one another. Allah Almighty says:

(And their Lord hath heard them (and He saith): Lo! I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another…) (Aal `Imran 3: 195)

3- She is equal to man in the pursuit of education and knowledge. When Islam enjoins the seeking of knowledge upon Muslims, it makes no distinction between man and woman. Almost fourteen centuries ago, Muhammad declared that the pursuit of knowledge is incumbent on every Muslim male and female. This declaration was very clear and was implemented by Muslims throughout history.

4- She is entitled to freedom of expression as much as man is. Her sound opinions are taken into consideration and cannot be disregarded just because she happen to belong to the female sex. It is reported in the Qur'an and history that woman not only expressed her opinion freely but also argued and participated in serious discussions with the Prophet himself as well as with other Muslim leaders. Allah Almighty says:

(Allah hath heard the saying of her that disputeth with thee (Muhammad) concerning her husband, and complaineth unto Allah. And Allah heareth your colloquy. Lo! Allah is Nearer, Knower. Such of you as put away your wives (by saying they are as their mothers) They are not their mothers; none are their mothers except those who gave them birth they indeed utter an ill word and a lie. And lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Those who put away their wives (by saying they are as their mothers) and afterward would go back on that which they have said; (the penalty) in that case (is) the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. Unto this ye are exhorted; and Allah is informed of what ye do.) (Al-Mujadalah 58: 1-4)

Besides there were occasions when Muslim women expressed their views on legislative matters of public interest, and stood in opposition to the Caliphs, who then accepted the sound arguments of these women. A specific example took place during the Caliphate of `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him.

5- Historical records show that women participated in public life with the early Muslims, especially in times of emergencies. Women used to accompany the Muslim armies engaged in battles to nurse the wounded, prepare supplies, serve the warriors, and so on. They were not shut behind iron bars or considered worthless creatures and deprived of souls.

6- Islam grants woman equal rights to contract, to enterprise, to earn and possess independently. Her life, her property, her honor are as sacred as those of man. If she commits any offense, her penalty is no less or more than of man's in a similar case. If she is wronged or harmed, she gets due compensations equal to what a man in her position would get. Allah Almighty says:

(O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 195)

7- Islam does not state these rights in a statistical form and then relax. It has taken all measures to safeguard them and put them into practice as integral articles of Faith. It never tolerates those who are inclined to prejudice against woman or discrimination between man and woman. Time and again, the Qur'an reproaches those who used to believe woman to be inferior to man. Allah Almighty says:

(And they assign unto Allah daughters. Be He glorified! and unto themselves what they desire; When if one of them receiveth tidings of the birth of a female, his face remaineth darkened, and he is wroth inwardly. He bideth himself from the folk because of the evil of that whereof he hath bad tidings, (asking himself): Shall he keep it in contempt, or bury it beneath the dust. Verily evil is their judgment.) (An-Nahl 16: 57-59)

8- Apart from recognition of woman as an independent human being acknowledged as equally essential for the survival of humanity, Islam has given her a share of inheritance. Before Islam, she was not only deprived of that share but was herself considered as property to be inherited by man. Out of that transferable property Islam made an heir, acknowledging the inherent human qualifies in woman. Whether she is a wife or mother, a sister or daughter, she receives a certain share of the deceased kin's property, a share which depends on her degree of relationship to the deceased and the number of heirs. This share is hers, and no one can take it away or disinherit her. Even if the deceased wishes to deprive her by making a will to other relations or in favor of any other cause, the Law will not allow him to do so. Any proprietor is permitted to make his will within the limit of one-third of his property, so he may not affect the rights of his heirs, men and women. In the case of inheritance, the question of quality and sameness is fully applicable. In principle, both man and woman are equally entitled to inherit the property of the deceased relations but the portions they get may vary. In some instances man receives two shares whereas woman gets one only. This no sign of giving preference or supremacy to man over woman. The reasons why man gets more in these particular instances may be classified as follows:

1- First man, is the person solely responsible for the complete maintenance of his wife, his family and any other needy relations. It is his duty by Law to assume all financial responsibilities and maintain his dependents adequately. It is also his duty to contribute financially to all good causes in his society. All financial burdens are borne by him alone.

2- Secondly, in contrast, woman has no financial responsibilities whatsoever except very little of her personal expenses, the high luxurious things that she likes to have. She is financially secure and provided for. If she is a wife, her husband is the provider; if she is a mother, it is the son; if she is a daughter, it is the father; if she is a sister; it is the brother, and so on. If she has no relations on whom she can depend, then there is no question of inheritance because there is nothing to inherit and there is no one to bequeath anything to her. However, she will not be left to starve, maintenance of such a woman is the responsibility of the society as a whole, the state. She may be given aid or a job to earn her living, and whatever money she makes will be hers. She is not responsible for the maintenance of anybody else beside herself. If there is a man in her position, he would still be responsible for his family and possibly any of his relations who need his help. So, in the hardest situation her financial responsibility is limited, while his is unlimited.

3- Thirdly, when a woman gets less than a man does, she is not actually deprived of anything that she has worked for. The property inherited is not the result of her earning or her endeavors. It is something coming to them from a neutral source, something addition-al or extra. It is something that neither man or woman struggled for. It is a sort of aid, and any aid has to be distributed according to the urgent needs and responsibilities especially when the distribution is regulated by the Law of Allah.

4- Now, we have a male heir, on one side, burdened with all kinds of financial responsibilities and liabilities. We have, on the other side, a female heir with no financial responsibilities at all or at most with very little of it. In between we have some property and aid to redistribute by way of inheritance. If we deprive the female completely, it would be unjust to her because she is related to the deceased. Likewise, if we always give her a share equal to the man's, it would be unjust to him. So, instead of doing injustice to either side, Islam gives the man a larger portion of the inherited property to help him to meet his family needs and social responsibilities. At the same time, Islam has not forgotten her altogether, but has given her a portion to satisfy her very personal needs. In fact, Islam in this respect is being more kind to her than to him. Here we can say that when taken as a whole the rights of woman are equal to those of man although not necessarily identical. Allah Almighty says:

(Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents or your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, rise.) (An-Nisaa' 4: 11)

1- Woman enjoys certain privileges of which man is deprived. She is exempt from some religious duties, i.e., prayers and fasting, in her regular periods and at times of confinement. She is exempt from all financial liabilities. As a mother, she enjoys more recognition and higher honor in the sight of Allah. Allah Almighty says:

(And We have enjoined upon man concerning his parents. His mother beareth him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning is in two years. Give thanks unto Me and unto thy parents. Unto Me is the journeying.) (Luqman 31: 14)

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, acknowledged this honor when he declared that Paradise is under the feet of the mothers. She is entitled to three-fourths of the son's love and kindness with one-fourth left for their father. As a wife she is entitled to demand of her prospective husband a suitable dowry that will be her own. She is entitled to complete provision and total maintenance by the husband. She does not have to work or share with her husband the family expenses. She is free to retain, after marriage, whatever she possessed before it, and the husband has no right whatsoever to any of her belongings. As a daughter or sister she is entitled to security and provision by the father and brother respectively. That is her privilege. If she wishes to work or be self-supporting and participate in handling the family responsibilities, she is quite free to do so, provided her integrity and honor are safeguarded.

2- The standing of woman in prayers behind man does not indicate in any sense that she is inferior to him. Woman, as already mentioned, is exempt from attending congregational prayers which are obligatory on man. But if she does attend she stands in separate lines made up of women exclusively. This is a regulation of discipline in prayers, and not a classification of importance. In men's rows the head of state stands shoulder to shoulder to the pauper. Men of the highest ranks in society stand in prayer side by side with other men of the lowest ranks. The order of lines in prayers is introduced to help every one to concentrate in his meditation. It is very important because Muslim prayers are not simply chanting or the sing-a-song type. They involve actions, motions, standing, bowing, prostration, etc. So if men mix with women in the same lines, it is possible that something disturbing or distracting may happen. The mind will become occupied by something alien to prayer and derailed from the clear path of mediation. The result will be a loss of the purpose of prayers, besides an offense of adultery committed by the eye, because the eye-by looking at forbidden things - can be guilty of adultery as much as the heart itself. Moreover, no Muslim man or woman is allowed during prayers to touch the body of another person of the opposite sex. If men and women stand side by side in prayer they cannot avoid touching each other. Furthermore, when a woman is praying in front of a man or beside him, it is very likely that any part of her dressed body may become uncovered after a certain motion of bowing or prostrating. The man's eye may happen to be looking at the uncovered part, with the result that she will be embarrassed and he will be exposed to distraction or possibly evil thoughts. So, to avoid any embarrassment and distraction to help concentrate on mediation and pure thoughts, to maintain harmony and order among worshippers, to fulfill the true purposes of prayers, Islam has ordained the organization of rows, whereby men stand in front lines, and women behind the children. Anyone with some knowledge of the nature and purpose of Muslim prayers can readily understand the wisdom of organizing the lines of worshippers in this manner.

3- The Muslim woman is always associated with an old tradition known as the "veil". It is Islamic that the woman should beautify herself with the veil of honor, dignity, chastity, purity and integrity. She should refrain from all deeds and gestures that might stir the passions of people other than her legitimate husband or cause evil suspicion of her morality. She is warned not to display her charms or expose her physical attractions before strangers. The veil, which she must put on, is one that can save her soul from weakness, her mind from indulgence, her eyes from lustful looks, and her personality from demoralization. Islam is most concerned with the integrity of woman, with the safeguarding of her morals and morale and with the protection of her character and personality

4- By now it is clear that the status of woman in Islam is unprecedentedly high and realistically suitable to her nature. Her rights and duties are equal to those of man but not necessarily or absolutely identical with them. If she is deprived of one thing in some aspect, she is fully compensated for it with more things in many other aspects. The fact that she belongs to the female sex has no bearing on her human status or independent personality, and it is no basis for justification of prejudice against her or injustice to her person. Islam gives her as much as is required of her. Her rights match beautifully with her duties. The balance between rights and duties is maintained, and no side overweighs the other. The whole status of woman is given clearly in the Qur'an. Allah Almighty says:

(Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 228)

This degree is not a title of supremacy or an authorization of dominance over her. It is to correspond with the extra responsibilities of man and give him some compensation for his unlimited liabilities. The above-mentioned verse is always interpreted in the light of another. Allah Almighty says:

(Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath men the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.) (An-Nisaa' 4: 34)

It is these extra responsibilities that give man a degree over woman in some economic aspects. It is not a higher degree in humanity or in character. Nor is it a dominance of one over the other or suppression of one by the other. It is a distribution of Allah's abundance according to the needs of the nature of which Allah is the Maker. And He knows best what is good for woman and what is good for man. Allah is absolutely true when He says:

(O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim ( your rights ) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you ). Lo! Allah hath been a Watcher over you.) (An-Nisaa' 4: 1)


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544308


hope that answers your first Q
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I said I didn't want to debate, I merely expressed my opinion that Islam give less rights to women that a modern secular state.
Obviously the answers were sufficient for you, but not for everyone else.
You have an incorrect opinion, which you are right, you are free to hold but not have imposed on us as a valid view!

cheers
Reply

aadil77
01-05-2009, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
I think many times women such as Ms. Nasreen are victims of cultural distortions of Islam (for instance, in Saudi Arabia, women can't drive). I don't think there is a (Muslim majority) country in the world that gives women the rights they had at the time of Muhammad SAW.
Yes she must have been the victim of some backwards cultural traditions, which she's blamed on islam
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 09:09 PM
Why are women protected and men not?
To answer your Qs. Yes, several women have had wanted to be come US presidents. Yes, you got female sanitation engineers.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You have an incorrect opinion, which you are right, you are free to hold but not have imposed on us as a valid view!

cheers
Ditto!
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Why are women protected and men not?
To answer your Qs. Yes, several women have had wanted to be come US presidents. Yes, you got female sanitation engineers.
Why shouldn't women be protected? why can't men give birth? why should women have to bear the burden of monthly visitors and childbirth?

'wanted to become' and becoming president are different things no? it is rather evident from the fact that none of them made it to office that people didn't want them there?.. I have already given you two examples of women heads of state, one as far back as the 12th century in the Muslim world, unfortunately for the latter what is feared is what happened (assassination).. when you put yourself in that postilion ready yourself for what comes your way, whether orphaning your children or losing your dear life... and no, women don't pick up the garbage in the US they may work in the dept. but they don't travel picking big garbage pails.. if they do where you come from, more power to them..

you still haven't answered why men and women don't compete against each other in the Olympics?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Why shouldn't women be protected? why can't men give birth? why should women have to bear the burden of monthly visitors and childbirth?

'wanted to become' and becoming president are different things no? it is rather evident from the fact that none of them made it to office that people didn't want them there?.. I have already given you two examples of women heads of state, one as far back as the 12th century in the Muslim world, unfortunately for the latter what is feared is what happened (assassination).. when you put yourself in that postilion ready yourself for what comes your way, whether orphaning your children or losing your dear life... and no, women don't pick up the garbage in the US they may work in the dept. but they don't travel picking big garbage pails.. if they do where you come from, more power to them..

you still haven't answered why men and women don't compete against each other in the Olympics?
Are women incapable of protecting themselves or is it because they're more valuable?
It doesn't matter if people didn't want them there.
Because male athletes tend to be physically stronger then female athletes. The same is not true for male and female heads of state, so the comparison is inappropriate.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It doesn't matter if people didn't want them there.
sure it does, it makes all the difference in the world!
Because male athletes tend to be physically stronger then female athletes. The same is not true for male and female heads of state, so the comparison is inappropriate.
I suppose you'll have to reluctantly concede that men and women have differences whether physical or otherwise.. it is really not the point.. women can hold any political position in an Islamic state save for the head of state-- and I have already patently demonstrated what ails that position!


cheers
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 09:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Are women incapable of protecting themselves or is it because they're more valuable?
.
Thanks for the addendum..

were those who had shoes thrown at them or assassinated with a fleet of secret service at hand able to protect themselves?
It isn't a matter of more valuable or not as I have clearly quoted you from the Quran that men and women are equal, but equality doesn't denote sameness. A man's jihad is different from a woman's jihad, though both are to perform it, both granted the same reward for it!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
sure it does, it makes all the difference in the world!


I suppose you'll have to reluctantly concede that men and women have differences whether physical or otherwise.. it is really not the point.. women can hold any political position in an Islamic state save for the head of state-- and I have already patently demonstrated what ails that position!


cheers
Female heads of state were elected in several countries.
There's the possibility of death, which is probably lower than in several other professions.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Female heads of state were elected in several countries.
So were they in the Muslim world? what is your point.. you speak of progress in the civilized world. well here a continent considered a 'super power' with no women presidents and failure of the people to recognize the importance of one.. I suppose you should argue this when one of them holds office?

There's the possibility of death, which is probably lower than in several other professions.

Really? is that why they are escorted by secret service every where? what as a sad existence it is, to live every moment of your life under some sort of threat..

if you have statistics share them.. some jobs aren't held by women even in the so-called civilized world.. there are no women construction workers, there are no women garbage pickers, and there are no women heads of state.. we can have this conversation again when it happens!

cheers
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Thanks for the addendum..

were those who had shoes thrown at them or assassinated with a fleet of secret service at hand able to protect themselves?
It isn't a matter of more valuable or not as I have clearly quoted you from the Quran that men and women are equal, but equality doesn't denote sameness. A man's jihad is different from a woman's jihad, though both are to perform it, both granted the same reward for it!
Why are men allowed to take risks and women not?
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
So were they in the Muslim world? what is your point.. you speak of progress in the civilized world. well here a continent considered a 'super power' with no women presidents and failure of the people to recognize the importance of one.. I suppose you should argue this when one of them holds office?
Really? is that why they are escorted by secret service every where? what as a sad existence it is, to live every moment of your life under some sort of threat..
if you have statistics share them.. some jobs aren't held by women even in the so-called civilized world.. there are no women construction workers, there are no women garbage pickers, and there are no women heads of state.. we can have this conversation again when it happens!

cheers
Yes, they were. Bangladesh, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia and perhaps there's more.
The US is backwards in several areas.
What I'm trying to know is why men are allowed to make their existence a living hell, and women apparently aren't. You may have answered this already and I didn't notice.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha
That's a bit of a vague question. What do you mean by risk? As in take part in war?
As in become heads of state and risking being assassinated.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Why are men allowed to take risks and women not?

وَأَنفِقُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ وَلاَ تُلْقُواْ بِأَيْدِيكُمْ إِلَى التَّهْلُكَةِ وَأَحْسِنُوَاْ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ {195}
[Yusufali 2:195] And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.


It has nothing to do with risks.. it has to do with putting one in harms way..
Why do men do it.. I don't know, some people are best suited for certain jobs..
Men aren't suited to some of the jobs of women (yes have already given example) and vice versa and again ultimately it has nothing at all to do with equality.. it has to do with what you are better suited for!
Reply

Amadeus85
01-05-2009, 10:20 PM
And no one of You thought that nowadays paris isnt best place to hide from muslim extremism.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 10:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, they were. Bangladesh, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia and perhaps there's more.
The US is backwards in several areas.
I am glad the 'free' world is deemed backwards by your own admission

What I'm trying to know is why men are allowed to make their existence a living hell, and women apparently aren't. You may have answered this already and I didn't notice.
I don't know why do they? I suppose it is their own choosing..
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 10:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
It has nothing to do with risks.. it has to do with putting one in harms way..
Why do men do it.. I don't know, some people are best suited for certain jobs..
Men aren't suited to some of the jobs of women (yes have already given example) and vice versa and again ultimately it has nothing at all to do with equality.. it has to do with what you are better suited for!
I don't know why do they? I suppose it is their own choosing..
Why do you think woman aren't suited to be heads of state?
What I'm asking is why women don't have that choice?
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Why do you think woman aren't suited to be heads of state?
What I'm asking is why women don't have that choice?
Why don't men have the choice to give birth?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Why don't men have the choice to give birth?
So what you're saying is that Allah knows best and you can't really justify it, as is the case with circumsion that you emntioned before?
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جوري
01-05-2009, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
So what you're saying is that Allah knows best and you can't really justify it?
I believe I already have?... it isn't a difficult decision.. I have a better job than Mr. President and were it not for his family's wealth, my job pays more..

Whether physical or psychological I have already covered it, and again have shown you examples of folks who have gone against divine law and paid for it dearly.. there you had a mother and a wife assassinated not a year ago .. what more do you really need?

Even in upholding perfect shari3a govt., you can't change the evil in people's hearts, it isn't a matter of justice and proper law.. as was evidenced by kaliphs who were assassinated even under an Islamic state ..
you argue some utopic town where people are happy with their leader and there is no threat even of humiliation under any rule whether governed by man or woman and then I'll argue against divine wisdom!

until then you are free to hold your opinion but know that it isn't weighty, especially as far as women are concerned.. Many Muslim women in the west have no reason whatsoever to be Muslim were it not for their own will that this is the religion of reason!


cheers
Reply

Hamayun
01-05-2009, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I too think it is unfair to women, it may have been fair and revolutionary to the women of the 6th century Arabia, but it is in many ways unfair to contemporary women.
Anyway, back on topic, its good the city accepted her.

Oh! Here we go with the whole "Muslim women are oppressed" stereotype ^o)

Are you a Muslim Woman? No? Then how would you know?

Go speak to Muslim women and see what 99% of them tell you... Sheesh!!!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 10:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I believe I already have?... it isn't a difficult decision.. I have a better job than Mr. President and were it not for his family's wealth, my job pays more..

Whether physical or psychological I have already covered it, and again have shown you examples of folks who have gone against divine law and paid for it dearly.. there you had a mother and a wife assassinated not a year ago .. what more do you really need?

Even in upholding perfect shari3a govt., you can't change the evil in people's hearts, it isn't a matter of justice and proper law.. as was evidenced by kaliphs who were assassinated even under an Islamic state ..
you argue some utopic town where people are happy with their leader and there is no threat even of humiliation under any rule whether governed by man or woman and then I'll argue against divine wisdom!

until then you are free to hold your opinion but know that it isn't weighty, especially as far as women are concerned.. Many Muslim women in the west have no reason whatsoever to be Muslim were it not for their own will that this is the religion of reason!


cheers
I'm not arhuing any utopic town, where did you get this? I'm not denying being a head of state comes with certain risks. I'm asking why exactly men are allowed to take those risks and women aren't. You haven't answered this.
Reply

جوري
01-05-2009, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm not arhuing any utopic town, where did you get this? I'm not denying being a head of state comes with certain risks. I'm asking why exactly men are allowed to take those risks and women aren't. You haven't answered this.
I actually have if you have bothered read the very first long reply to your original Q..

cheers
Reply

Hamayun
01-05-2009, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm not arhuing any utopic town, where did you get this? I'm not denying being a head of state comes with certain risks. I'm asking why exactly men are allowed to take those risks and women aren't. You haven't answered this.

Would you agree that men are physically stronger? Men are designed with a more agile body? Women designed with a more delicate and complex body that is suited for giving birth and providing for the offspring..

I thought being an agnostic all you would have to do is look at the animal kingdom and see how most of them have their fixed roles...

Are female lions protectors/leaders of the pride??? Are female wolves leaders of the packs??? No? Then you have your answer...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 10:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I actually have if you have bothered read the very first long reply to your original Q..

cheers
What Islam has established for woman is that which suits her nature, gives her full security and protects her against disgraceful circumstances and uncertain channels of life.
This?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 10:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Would you agree that men are physically stronger? Men are designed with a more agile body? Women designed with a more delicate and complex body that is suited for giving birth and providing for the offspring..

I thought being an agnostic all you would have to do is look at the animal kingdom and see how most of them have their fixed roles...

Are female lions protectors/leaders of the pride??? Are female wolves leaders of the packs??? No? Then you have your answer...
What has physical power have to do with leadership capabilities?
Animals have gay sex too, that doesn't mean we shoud follow their example, eh?
Reply

Hamayun
01-05-2009, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What has physical power have to do with leadership capabilities?
Animals have gay sex too, that doesn't mean we shoud follow their example, eh?
Your question was regarding "taking risks" and dealing with dangerous situations. Make up your mind!!! Why do you always end up talking about homosexuals? Obsessed much?

Arguing with you is futile... you know what? Women are oppressed in Islam. Thanks for your concern... I am off to beat my wife with a stick for not drinking the water she washed my feet with.

Cheerio...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Your question was regarding "taking risks" and dealing with dangerous situations. Make up your mind!!! Why do you always end up talking about homosexuals? Obsessed much?

Arguing with you is futile... you know what? Women are oppressed in Islam. Thanks for your concern... I am off to beat my wife with a stick for not drinking the water she washed my feet with.

Cheerio...
The point is that a female president is equally vulnerable to a sniper shot.
Well, it crossed my mind how one side argues homosexuality is natural and the religious side replies claiming we are not animals and yet the same side compares us to animals.
I don't say they were oppressed, I said other systems provide women with more rights, whether that is a good thing, I don't know, but it is a fact.
Reply

Hamayun
01-05-2009, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The point is that a female president is equally vulnerable to a sniper shot.
Well, it crossed my mind how one side argues homosexuality is natural and the religious side replies claiming we are not animals and yet the same side compares us to animals.
I don't say they were oppressed, I said other systems provide women with more rights, whether that is a good thing, I don't know, but it is a fact.
1. Snipers did not exist in the 7th century. A leader would have to fight man to man. The rule is a general rule. You can not expect the Quran to make different rules for different people/nations.

2. I said "being an agnostic you should look at the animal kingdom". It doesn't necessarily mean those are my personal views.

3. All you have to do is go out in London on a saturday night to see what the so called rights have done. No wonder we get attacked by kids with no fathers every other week... Its not about equality its about respect and knowing your role in society/family.

4. I am not done beating my wife yet so I may not reply soon.

Laters...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
1. Snipers did not exist in the 7th century. A leader would have to fight man to man. The rule is a general rule. You can not expect the Quran to make different rules for different people/nations.
I thought Islam was supposed to be for all times and places?
That's exactly my problem with Islam. General rules, no exceptions even if they could prove valuable.
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Hamayun
01-05-2009, 11:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I thought Islam was supposed to be for all times and places?
That's exactly my problem with Islam. General rules, no exceptions even if they could prove valuable.
King James decided to make exceptions... what started as a few exceptions has now ended up where? It starts as making a few exceptions then one thing leads to another and before you know it we have a completely new religion...

Better safe than sorry.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
King James decided to make exceptions... what started as a few exceptions has now ended up where? It starts as making a few exceptions then one thing leads to another and before you know it we have a completely new religion...

Better safe than sorry.
I understand.
I'm not that familiar with the history of the British isles, what exceptions did King James decide to make?
Reply

Hamayun
01-05-2009, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I understand.
I'm not that familiar with the history of the British isles, what exceptions did King James decide to make?
I was giving an example of how the King James "version" of the Bible has gone through different transformations. Once you allow one change it starts a chain of changes and before you know it everyone wants to change something because it doesn't suit them...

I am glad you said understand. I respect that. Cheers.
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Whatsthepoint
01-05-2009, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I was giving an example of how the King James "version" of the Bible has gone through different transformations. Once you allow one change it starts a chain of changes and before you know it everyone wants to change something because it doesn't suit them...

I am glad you said understand. I respect that. Cheers.
Just for the record, don't mean to cause further off topic posts but if the Bible had ever been changed, it was changed long before King James decided to have a copy in English.
I'm glad you do.
Reply

Hamayun
01-05-2009, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Just for the record, don't mean to cause further off topic posts but if the Bible had ever been changed, it was changed long before King James decided to have a copy in English.
I'm glad you do.
Agreed. That was a bad example. But you get the point.

Peace.
Reply

Vito
01-05-2009, 11:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm not arhuing any utopic town, where did you get this? I'm not denying being a head of state comes with certain risks. I'm asking why exactly men are allowed to take those risks and women aren't. You haven't answered this.
Seeing more men than women being head of states is not an Islamic thing, its more of a choice from the electing people themselves and anything else is simply a cultural thing. Being a female while in office brings far greater risks and not a lot of woman are wanting to find out just how great those risks are. Whether they are allowed to or not has nothing to do with Islam.
Reply

Chuck
01-06-2009, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, it crossed my mind how one side argues homosexuality is natural and the religious side replies claiming we are not animals and yet the same side compares us to animals.
It can be argued that homosexuality goes against evolutionary growth of a species, but physically stronger person taking main leadership role improves the chances of survival of a group.
Reply

Vito
01-06-2009, 12:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kai85
Seeing more men than women being head of states is not an Islamic thing, its more of a choice from the electing people themselves and anything else is simply a cultural thing. Being a female while in office brings far greater risks and not a lot of woman are wanting to find out just how great those risks are. Whether they are allowed to or not has nothing to do with Islam.
Sorry I can't edit yet. I'm just going by what Skye has posted. (If I'm wrong, sorry)
Reply

AntiKarateKid
01-06-2009, 03:41 AM
Strange that so many women from secular states like America are converting to Islam.:rolleyes:
Reply

aamirsaab
01-06-2009, 12:08 PM
:sl:
''My "idea" was not to criticise Islam per se but to defend women's rights and freedom. "My aim is to raise consciousness, to struggle for justice for women, so I have no alternative but to criticise Islam because Islam oppresses women. I know millions of women have been suffering because of religion, tradition, culture and customs and I feel a responsibility to do something."
What?! Which religion gave women the right to vote 1400 years before any of the western countries? Which religion forbid you to bury your daughters? Which religion forbids you to say 'uff' to your mother? Which religion allows a woman to divorce her husband and take all that is hers and all that was bought for her? Which religion emancipated women's status to even this day in the modern era? Which religion forbids you from killing women in battle?

Islam doesn't oppress women; it emancipates them. Unless you call porn-stars and prostitutes careers of freedom.
Reply

Woodrow
01-06-2009, 12:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Strange that so many women from secular states like America are converting to Islam.:rolleyes:
America is a paradox. While the country is secular, very few of the people are.

Women seem to be more religious in America than the men are, so it makes sense they would be the seekers and the first to find Islam.

Americans seem to have more of an attitude that men are the wage earners and woman are the spiritual caretakers. Men work, women pray. The woman are winning
Reply

Snowflake
01-06-2009, 12:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I too think it is unfair to women, it may have been fair and revolutionary to the women of the 6th century Arabia, but it is in many ways unfair to contemporary women.
Anyway, back on topic, its good the city accepted her.
It doesn't matter what you think. You're not muslim and you're not a woman. Myself being both, I can tell you that I thank God for being given those rights and I cannot fault them. We are protected from birth to death. Without rights Islam gives to women, we'd have probably been just as exploited by ignorant muslim men as the non muslim woman is by her own and she doesn't even realise what is happening until she has nothing left. More women are accepting Islam. Even if you don't do your homework, the facts speak for themselves.


She was quoted by an Indian newspaper saying the Qur'an should be rewritten because it was "unfair to women"
I agree with brother Kai. I don't know why people have to start jumping up and down about something someone said. I don't see them doing that when people are in haram relationships, drinking alcohol etc etc. Aren't they just as bad? So the woman is ignorant. Why not invite her to a dawah meeting and explain why what she said is wrong. After that let Allah deal with her. There isnt a prescribed punishment for thinking any islamic law is unfair, so what are ppl hoping to achieve? ^o)
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Whatsthepoint
01-06-2009, 01:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kai85
Seeing more men than women being head of states is not an Islamic thing, its more of a choice from the electing people themselves and anything else is simply a cultural thing. Being a female while in office brings far greater risks and not a lot of woman are wanting to find out just how great those risks are. Whether they are allowed to or not has nothing to do with Islam.
yes, it has.
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Whatsthepoint
01-06-2009, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
It can be argued that homosexuality goes against evolutionary growth of a species, but physically stronger person taking main leadership role improves the chances of survival of a group.
It doesn't matter, we don't make laws based on evolutionary principles. the animal homosexuality argument is not an argument per se, its a counter argument to claims homosexuality is unnatural.
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Izyan
01-06-2009, 02:06 PM
Every one is arguing that women aren't physically capable of being head of state. Unless you now have to throw a javelin during the election I'm not buying that. Angela Merkel does just fine, Margaret Thatcher had no problem heading the UK. Russia, France, and the UK has a long history of strong Queens. Isn't the PM of Finland a woman also?
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Keltoi
01-06-2009, 03:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
Every one is arguing that women aren't physically capable of being head of state. Unless you now have to throw a javelin during the election I'm not buying that. Angela Merkel does just fine, Margaret Thatcher had no problem heading the UK. Russia, France, and the UK has a long history of strong Queens. Isn't the PM of Finland a woman also?
Being a long student of history, I would say having a female head of state is not a weakness in the slightest. Some of the most effective and influential leaders in world history were women. Leadership is about pragmatism and character.
Reply

جوري
01-06-2009, 07:01 PM
It doesn't really matter what the lot of you suppose, least of which those of you presiding in the USA, as evidenced still by their inability to put a woman to that seat..

The position of a khalif in an Islamic state as it is presumed that is what we are governing by, requires things that should be performed of men it has nothing to do with stamina or physical strength although it is certainly a point to consider.. It is amazing to me that back in the day, people used to be in terror being elected to such a seat knowing full well not only are they responsible for every member under their rule before God..

If we are talking secular, then already in the Muslim world a woman was queen as far back as 12th century something yet to happen in the free world, if we are talking governing by God's law, then it is really not subject to your fancy.. I'd actually look to the status of women in your bible the so-called 'living word' of God before I wander off on what seems unjust toward women in Islam!
Reply

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