The Arab leaders are worse than the Israeli ones

[crayon]

RAFAH, Egypt: Frustration has been mounting at Egypt's border with the Gaza Strip, where many local and foreign doctors have been waiting for days for Egyptian permission to enter the coastal area now under an Israeli ground invasion.
On Tuesday, a representative from a Norwegian medical aid organization was allowed to enter Gaza. But most doctors have been denied entry and have spent days waiting at the border, drinking tea and coffee at a small, dusty cafe near the crossing's metal gates.
"This is a shame," said Greek anesthesiologist Dimitrios Mognie, who's using his vacation to try to help Gaza. He thought entering through Egypt, which has a narrow border with the Hamas-ruled strip, was his best bet.
"That in 2009 they have people in need of help from a doctor and we can go to help and they won't let us. This is crazy," he said.
Gaza's few hospitals have been swamped by the numbers of injured. More than 500 Palestinians have been killed, including more than 100 civilians, according to U.N. figures from the 11-day campaign by Israel designed to stop Gaza's Hamas militants from launching rockets at Israel.


Mognie and a colleague, both from the Greek organization Doctors for Peace, were the last in their group of six Greek doctors to remain at the Rafah border after arriving five days ago with medical supplies. Their colleagues returned home after being continually rebuffed by the Egyptian border guards.
Mognie, who said he has worked in conflict zones such as Iraq, Angola and Somalia, said he understood security concerns but was willing to take the risk to help civilians in Gaza.
Israel and Egypt first closed their borders with Gaza after Hamas took control of the area in June 2007. The Egyptian closure has been seen by some as abetting Israel's siege of the crowded strip, home to 1.4 million people.
Since Israel's offensive, Egypt has taken in a trickle of wounded Palestinians from Gaza through the crossing in the border town of Rafah. Cairo, the main mediator between Israel and Hamas, has said it would only open Rafah if Hamas' rival, the moderate Palestinian forces of President Mahmoud Abbas, are in charge of the crossing.
Calls to Egypt to ease the border bottleneck — where aid convoys first have to unload cargo from Egyptian trucks before it's loaded onto Palestinian ones and taken into the strip — have increased.
Although Egypt has allowed three Norwegian medical personnel into Gaza including one who crossed on Tuesday, the majority of physicians are frustrated at their inability to get in.
The Palestinian ambulances are not allowed to travel into Egypt past the border. At the crossing, patients are taken out of the often poorly equipped Palestinian ambulances and transferred on gurneys to Egyptian ambulances.
At least 16 wounded Palestinians were brought to Egypt on Tuesday, said Mohammed Arafat a Palestinian Authority representative in Rafah.
The day before, Palestinian doctor Abed el-Qader Lubbad arrived at the border in one of the ambulances transporting patients from Gaza. Of the eight patients he ferried, one who was seriously wounded died on the way, said Lubbad, who works in the intensive care unit at Shifa Hospital in Gaza.
Obstetrician Jemilah Mahmood, the president of Mercy Malaysia, said her group worked with the Egyptian Red Crescent to transfer about $100,000 worth of medical supplies to Gaza on Monday. She's arranging another shipment that will hopefully reach the beleaguered strip next week.
But while supplies can get through, Mahmoud said neither she nor her colleagues are allowed to cross.
"Can you imagine how many women are hurt and how few women doctors there are?" she said. "All of us are sitting at the border."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/...Bottleneck.php

May Allah, the most Just, deal with them all, whether it's in this life or the next.

[IslamicRevival]

Further Proof >> http://www.entekhabnews.net/IRAN-NEWS/Society/343.html

What do you expect when the corrupt Saudis are issuing idiotic "Fatwah's"?

These people are part of the Zionists

[wth1257]

Not to mention treatment of Palestinians within their borders. The plight of the Palestinians has always been a grassroot, bottom up cause both here in the west and the islamic world.

[Güven]

:salamext:

the Arab leaders are showing their corruptness once again , the non-arab countries are showing way more anger and offence to israel

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[wth1257]

:salamext:

the Arab leaders are showing their corruptness once again , the non-arab countries are showing way more anger and offence to israel

Some Queen from Jordan seems to be speaking pretty well about it on the American cable news shows.

[crayon]

Some Queen from Jordan seems to be speaking pretty well about it on the American cable news shows.

Yup true, I saw a bit of her on CNN, late edition with wolf blitzer, couple days ago.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What a shame!! They have no fear of Allah, astaghfirullah! They will answer to Him InshaAllah...

[Questfortruth]

Further Proof >> http://www.entekhabnews.net/IRAN-NEWS/Society/343.html

What do you expect when the corrupt Saudis are issuing idiotic "Fatwah's"?

These people are part of the Zionists

Interesting, how this "MUFTI" calls on Muslims to destory the Prophets (peace be upon him) grandson grave. Yet would protect the honor of King Fahad or Abdullah with his life. Disgusting!

[aadil77]

Interesting, how this "MUFTI" calls on Muslims to destory the Prophets (peace be upon him) grandson grave. Yet would protect the honor of King Fahad or Abdullah with his life. Disgusting!

They have done this in Makkah claiming people commit shirk at their graves

[Questfortruth]

They have done this in Makkah claiming people commit shirk at their graves

Subhan'Allah

[Güven]

Some Queen from Jordan seems to be speaking pretty well about it on the American cable news shows.

Yep I just saw it , Im following the turkish news and the prime minister Erdogan had some realy heated speeches against israel yesterday.

[Ansariyah]

I have no respect for these Obese looking -dress-wearing, good for nothing "so called men" that sit on golden thrones n golden toilet seats while Musim blood is flowing like a an ocean. May Allah destroy them all ameen.

[Whatsthepoint]

If Egypt opened the border Israelis could say Palis can get their supplies there so there's no need to open their borders and checkpoints.
My two cents.

[aadil77]

If Egypt opened the border Israelis could say Palis can get their supplies there so there's no need to open their borders and checkpoints.
My two cents.

No Israelis could then starting attacking Egypt for opening the borders

[themuffinman]

Further Proof >> http://www.entekhabnews.net/IRAN-NEWS/Society/343.html

What do you expect when the corrupt Saudis are issuing idiotic "Fatwah's"?

These people are part of the Zionists

hmmm i dont see the problem with that fatwah.... it is completely justified. its funny how the enemies of islam like to call everyone following the correct path of the prophet and the sahaba a ******, abdul wahab called people back to the quran and sunnah of the prophet and he was rightly guided. people didnt like the correct path they made a killing off grave worshipping it was a good business for them so they labeled his followers ****** as to make it seem they are a sect. all these stupid consipracy theories abt ******s linked to zionists is really stupid. yes i agree that the arab leaders are corrupt and there are much more pressing matters than the graves at this time like the plight of the people in gaza.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Egypt doesn't want to get involved, just like every other muslim country. Saudi could potentially do something, if it bothers to stop making gold palaces for a day (it could at least fund palestine!). Pakistan has too many problems at home (US airstrikes, taliban, massive corruption etc). Egypt is closest but knows if it gets involved in the conflict like hezbolla did, it will get attacked big time.

And noone wants to get attacked by Israel. Certainly not after the past 11 days.

Edit: Syria is also very close, but to get to gaza they'd have to plow through 90% of Israel itself (which would be impossible). Iran could have an offensive possibility via airstrike but I honestly doubt ahmadinajad has any real bite. If he had, he'd have done something by now.

[Güven]

:salamext:

Turkey is planning to sent troops there.
its not confirmed yet but InshaAllah they will

[IslamicRevival]

:salamext:

Turkey is planning to sent troops there.
its not confirmed yet but InshaAllah they will

Where? Palestine? Source?

JazakAllah

[aamirsaab]

:salamext:

Turkey is planning to sent troops there.
its not confirmed yet but InshaAllah they will

Probably by sea/navy, so they end up on the bank of gaza. But israel already has its navy out firing in on gaza...

I just hope Israel will stop attacking now - too many civilians are being killed - children no less! And even if they are taking out hamas members, that counts as assasination since they are a political and democractically-elected party. Which would be a war crime surely?

[Güven]

Where? Palestine? Source?

JazakAllah

yep to gaza , Its on turkish news and I doubt you can find an english article about it because its not confirmed yet.

[IslamicRevival]

yep to gaza , Its on turkish news and I doubt you can find an english article about it because its not confirmed yet.

Thanks for the reply.

I hope this happens but i cant see it happening

:cry:

It may be too late now

[Vito]

I only see Hamas gaining more members out of this to be honest, of course that is if everyone in Gaza isn't murdered... Especially now that a lot of people are losing their families, houses, and pretty much everything else..

[Woodrow]

I think Israel has just painted itself into a corner. It needs to show the world that Gaza is a serious threat to Israel. Without showing that, world opinion is going to be changed because of those baby pictures. A masive defeat of Gaza would show that Gaza, never had the ability to pose a danger to most of Israel.

Gaza will never surrender. soon the Palestinians are going to be seen as the small rag-tail, ill equipped army that could not be pushed to surrender by one of the most modern militias on earth. israel might have modern equipment, but the Palestinians have courage and a strong belief in what they are fighting for.

I strongly believe that Israel has signed it's own doom. Not that it will be destroyed by military might but because the world will see the Zionists as they really are and the world will have to admit that 1947 was a mistake and it is time to dismantle and stop supporting a failed experiment.

I believe most Americans are going to stop seeing the Palestinians as rogues, and will see the similarity between ourselves in 1776 and the Palestinians of today. In 1776 we were a small poorly equipped group of rebels that took on Great Britain, the mightiest military force ever seen at that time.

and we beat them with little equipment and having little more than a desire to get out from under British Rule.

[wth1257]

I think Israel has just painted itself into a corner. It needs to show the world that Gaza is a serious threat to Israel. Without showing that, world opinion is going to be changed because of those baby pictures. A masive defeat of Gaza would show that Gaza, never had the ability to pose a danger to most of Israel.

Gaza will never surrender. soon the Palestinians are going to be seen as the small rag-tail, ill equipped army that could not be pushed to surrender by one of the most modern militias on earth. israel might have modern equipment, but the Palestinians have courage and a strong belief in what they are fighting for.

I strongly believe that Israel has signed it's own doom. Not that it will be destroyed by military might but because the world will see the Zionists as they really are and the world will have to admit that 1947 was a mistake and it is time to dismantle and stop supporting a failed experiment.

I believe most Americans are going to stop seeing the Palestinians as rogues, and will see the similarity between ourselves in 1776 and the Palestinians of today. In 1776 we were a small poorly equipped group of rebels that took on Great Britain, the mightiest military force ever seen at that time.

and we beat them with little equipment and having little more than a desire to get out from under British Rule.

I don't see it amongst the politicians. If an accecpted American politician (just 1) then by the indexing theory of media studies this could start to open up the debate.

[Woodrow]

I don't see it amongst the politicians. If an accecpted American politician (just 1) then by the indexing theory of media studies this could start to open up the debate.

The door is opening for Obama to speak, let us see what he has to say over the next few days. Remember, not long back he pledged continued support for Israel. Seems he is trying to come up with a diplomatic way to announce he is altering some of his original thoughts..

But Obama and the team he has chosen might be more willing to accept the type of arrangement that many believe is needed to relieve the suffering in Gaza and figure out a political solution. That will likely involve giving Hamas some face-saving partial authority role in the crowded territory it seized in 2007 after winning elections.

Obama also has indicated he may be willing to talk to Iran — a country most view as key to the overall Middle East puzzle. The Islamic Republic gained significant regional clout after its protege, Hezbollah, held out against Israel in the 2006 war. That in turn directly hurt the credibility and influence of many Arab moderates.

Just some words of a possibility taken from this story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/...ALItfY8ZgLewgF

[wth1257]

The door is opening for Obama to speak, let us see what he has to say over the next few days. Remember, not long back he pledged continued support for Israel. Seems he is trying to come up with a diplomatic way to announce he is altering some of his original thoughts..






Just some words of a possibility taken from this story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/...ALItfY8ZgLewgF

:smile:

what is it? ishna'allah?

[Woodrow]

:smile:

what is it? ishna'allah?

I see it as early steps in him breaking the ice to say he sees the Palestinians as victims and not as aggressors. That in turn will break down the barrier that keeps any politician from saying they see Israel as being the aggressor and we need to stop supporting Israel.

Perhaps I am reading too much into a few words, but the few words Obama has said give hope his stand about Palestine is swinging in the direction of sympathy for Palestine.

As I already said, let us wait and see what he says over the next few days.

[arabianprincess]

well arab leaders wont do anythin and its not a surprise ...i always ask my self why the arab presidents r sooo scared of america i mean if they unite they will have a huge shot.. weird and i know its only the governments who r messed up but i think the people would go to ghad if they open the boarders . and as for egypt we all know they wont open the boaders i mean they dont wanna war plus i mean Y should they help when the others r sitting and doing nothin. and as for iran i heard on CNN couple of days ago that there was some kinda paper that was issued and pretty much like they collected like 1000 or somethin suicide bombers and they r trying to send them to Palestine but they dont know how to get them in ?! any info about that ! i guess they will take over Palestine .. didnt the prophet mohammed PBUH said that.. and we will regain it !
oh yea did yall see one of the members of hamas who fled to America and converted to Christianity .. he was the son of the hamas leader?

[sudais1]

That was propaganda...never happened.

[wth1257]

That was propaganda...never happened.

how do you know?

[wth1257]

I see it as early steps in him breaking the ice to say he sees the Palestinians as victims and not as aggressors. That in turn will break down the barrier that keeps any politician from saying they see Israel as being the aggressor and we need to stop supporting Israel.

Perhaps I am reading too much into a few words, but the few words Obama has said give hope his stand about Palestine is swinging in the direction of sympathy for Palestine.

As I already said, let us wait and see what he says over the next few days.

Sure, I was just trying to say God willing you will be right. Sorry if I got the arabic messed up.

[sudais1]

I know that the Prophet said something similar to that Ar Rum and the Ummah would fight as one of the Romans would join the Muslim Ranks and that the Ar Rum (Western World) would try and convince the Ummah to let the fight only those that left them...and that Constantinople would be conquered by nothing except the Takbeer. InshaAllah Turkey, our former Capital, our former leader of the Ummah, our former valiant Ameers who gave victory to this deen will return from them...Allah Make Turkey favoured to you again and give the Ummah victory by them. Turkey is the only nation capable of uniting the Ummah again and fighting Israeli Conventionally

[sudais1]

how do you know?

Because he came on TV and dismissed them...

[Woodrow]

Sure, I was just trying to say God willing you will be right. Sorry if I got the arabic messed up.

You were very close with the Arabic it is: Inshallah

At least we both now have some idea as to what we are saying. Thank you for the thoughts and it is my hope it will be the will of God(swt) that the American politicians are changing their views.

[north_malaysian]

:salamext:

Turkey is planning to sent troops there.
its not confirmed yet but InshaAllah they will

whoa.... do you mean ... to assist the Gazans? I thought Erdogan is pro-Israeli... (a Kemalist told me that)

If Turkey managed to send the troops there abd help the Gazans, I'll raise Turkish flag at my house....

[wth1257]

Because he came on TV and dismissed them...

I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. I'm talking about this, "oh yea did yall see one of the members of hamas who fled to America and converted to Christianity .. he was the son of the hamas leader?"

[arabianprincess]

it came on fox news but people say its not trusted .. so i dont now...

[wth1257]

it came on fox news but people say its not trusted .. so i dont now...

yeah, I saw it too. I could not find any source for it beyong right wing news outlets, but I never found anything refuting it. It seemed fishy but I could not reject it out of hand.

[north_malaysian]

'We Could Send Turkish Troops to Gaza to Contribute to Peace'

After yesterday's Cabinet meeting, government spokesperson and Deputy Prime Minister Cemil Cicek told a press conference that the Cabinet members will brief Parliament on Israel's attacks in Gaza today.

Asked what Turkey's stance would be on the possibility of sending Turkish soldiers to Gaza, Cicek said, "If doing so would contribute to peace, we wouldn't refuse."

Stating that Turkey is following all developments on the issue, Cicek called Israel's ground offensive "unacceptable," adding that the government has also contacted Hamas as part of its diplomatic efforts.

Wednesday, 7 January 2009

Aksam, Istanbul based Turkish daily

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/62...peace-39-.html

[wth1257]

'We Could Send Turkish Troops to Gaza to Contribute to Peace'

After yesterday's Cabinet meeting, government spokesperson and Deputy Prime Minister Cemil Cicek told a press conference that the Cabinet members will brief Parliament on Israel's attacks in Gaza today.

Asked what Turkey's stance would be on the possibility of sending Turkish soldiers to Gaza, Cicek said, "If doing so would contribute to peace, we wouldn't refuse."

Stating that Turkey is following all developments on the issue, Cicek called Israel's ground offensive "unacceptable," adding that the government has also contacted Hamas as part of its diplomatic efforts.

Wednesday, 7 January 2009

Aksam, Istanbul based Turkish daily

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/62...peace-39-.html

that sounds like a peacekeeping force. Like part of a larger multinational force

[Woodrow]

yeah, I saw it too. I could not find any source for it beyong right wing news outlets, but I never found anything refuting it. It seemed fishy but I could not reject it out of hand.

Just some food for thought on that. If that did happen can you even imagine how many fatwas by extremists would have been made, demanding his death.

Even if the extremists kept quiet, us run of the mill Muslims would be calling him a kaffir and apostate. I think the Muslim world would be more verbal about it than the Western Media could ever hope to be.

[wth1257]

Just some food for thought on that. If that did happen can you even imagine how many fatwas by extremists would have been made, demanding his death.

Even if the extremists kept quiet, us run of the mill Muslims would be calling him a kaffir and apostate. I think the Muslim world would be more verbal about it than the Western Media could ever hope to be.

very good point.

[Woodrow]

that sounds like a peacekeeping force. Like part of a larger multinational force

Hmmm. Perhaps.

At the moment the UN does not seem to be happy with Israel and Turkey is a UN member, maybe the UN is planning to send in a peacekeeping force.

[wth1257]

Hmmm. Perhaps.

At the moment the UN does not seem to be happy with Israel and Turkey is a UN member, maybe the UN is planning to send in a peacekeeping force.

Did you see the President of the General Assembly's comment.


pretty tough against the US for always covering Israel.

I like him.

[Woodrow]

From a very interesting story.

The draft resolution met with strong objection from the United States, which blocked the approval of a Security Council statement to demand an immediate and durable ceasefire in the region, Palestinian diplomatic sources said.

The resolution called for an immediate and permanent ceasefire in Gaza and demanded full respect of the ceasefire by both parties.

It called for the immediate lifting of the Israeli blockade on Gaza and for the sustained opening of Gaza's border crossing with Israel

Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10617283.htm

[north_malaysian]

How about Turkey invading Gaza? They can kick out the IDF and pacify Hamas...

[Woodrow]

More interesting events taking place at the UN

UNITED NATIONS, Jan. 6 (Xinhua) -- UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said here Tuesday that the Israeli attacks on the UN facilities in Gaza are "totally unacceptable and must not be repeated."

Ban, in a statement issued by his spokesperson in response to the Israeli attacks on three UN schools in Gaza, said, "These attacks by Israeli military forces which endanger facilities acting as places of refuge are totally unacceptable and must not be repeated."

"Equally unacceptable are any actions by militants which endanger the Palestinian civilian population," the statement said.

More than 30 people have been killed and 55 others injured in separate strikes on clearly-marked United Nations schools where civilians were seeking refuge from the ongoing violence in Gaza, said John Ging, director of operations in Gaza of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA).

Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10614901.htm

[Woodrow]

Did you see the President of the General Assembly's comment.


pretty tough against the US for always covering Israel.

I like him.

I haven't seen that yet. But, I'm looking through the UN news and it seems the UN is not very pleased with Israel or the USA.

[north_malaysian]

I haven't seen that yet. But, I'm looking through the UN news and it seems the UN is not very pleased with Israel or the USA.

of course UN doesnt really like Israel, many UN establishment in Palestine and Lebanon were attacked by the IDF too...

I'm so surprised that the Greeks (both in mainland Greece and Cyprus) are really pro-Palestinian....

[Woodrow]

of course UN doesnt really like Israel, many UN establishment in Palestine and Lebanon were attacked by the IDF too...

I'm so surprised that the Greeks (both in mainland Greece and Cyprus) are really pro-Palestinian....

It seems that the actions of the Israelis themselves is doing what Suicide bombs and rocket attacks have not been able to do. Israel has been defeated by the blood of innocent children.

I believe history is unraveling itself and the 1947 error is being corrected.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:

well arab leaders wont do anythin and its not a surprise ...i always ask my self why the arab presidents r sooo scared of america i mean if they unite they will have a huge shot..

because there is no baraa from the kuffar government. why do you think none of the arab leaders got up at the second a Muslims blood was shed, becuse they all have strong ties with the US :rolleyes:

oh yea did yall see one of the members of hamas who fled to America and converted to Christianity .. he was the son of the hamas leader?

yh like that's creditable lol. im sure he has nothing better to do then to "Join forces" with his own enemies. i doubt they would have even let him in anyway.

oh and sis, don't trust western media for your sources of whats happening to the muslims :D

[Whatsthepoint]

Probably by sea/navy, so they end up on the bank of gaza. But israel already has its navy out firing in on gaza...

I just hope Israel will stop attacking now - too many civilians are being killed - children no less! And even if they are taking out hamas members, that counts as assasination since they are a political and democractically-elected party. Which would be a war crime surely?

Hitler was democratically elected too.
I'm not comparing him to Hamas, btw.

[crayon]

I haven't seen that yet. But, I'm looking through the UN news and it seems the UN is not very pleased with Israel or the USA.

Yeah, they're raging especially about the school incident, it looks like it's going to be a huge factor in this whole thing.

[aamirsaab]

Hitler was democratically elected too.
I'm not comparing him to Hamas, btw.

True. But Hitler committed suicide in the end. I don't think hamas will be doing that any time soon (unless suicide bombing counts)

Anywho, Israel is quite clearly not aiming for peace with gaza. They are going to bomb them until there is no resistance: no resistance makes it a hell of a lot easier for Israel to command all of the cities left under palestine.

[crayon]

Venezuela expels Israeli ambassador

Hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in
the Israeli offensive [AFP] Venezuela has expelled the Israeli ambassador to protest against the country's assault on Gaza, after the Venezuelan president described it as a "holocaust".
The move on Tuesday came hours after 40 Palestinians were killed at a UN school where civilians had taken shelter amid the offensive.
"The Holocaust, that is what is happening right now in Gaza," Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, said in televised comments.
"The president of Israel at this moment should be taken to the International Criminal Court together with the president of the United States."
At least 660 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Israel began its offensive on December 27, in what it says is an attempt to halt Palestinian rocketfire from Gaza.
'State terrorism'
Venezuela's foreign ministry said in a statement that Israel's campaign constituted "flagrant violations of international law" and the use of "state terrorism".
"For the reasons mentioned above, the government of Venezuela has decided to expel the ambassador of Israel and part of the personnel of the embassy of Israel," the statement said.
On Monday, Chavez, a strong critic of Israel and the US, had accused Washington of poisoning Yasser Arafat, the late former Palestinian president, to destabilise the Middle East and justify US-backed Israeli incursions.
The United States, which Chavez describes as a decadent empire, firmly backs Israel, its principal ally in the region.
On Tuesday, the White House said it would support an "immediate" ceasefire in Gaza but only if it was likely to be "durable".

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/am...856254298.html

Hugo Chavez is awesome. A little crazy, but still awesome.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:
^ lol yh i was quite impressed with that too :D

[wth1257]

I haven't seen that yet. But, I'm looking through the UN news and it seems the UN is not very pleased with Israel or the USA.

He's actually a Catholic Prieist. I was suprised by that.

[aadil77]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/am...856254298.html

Hugo Chavez is awesome. A little crazy, but still awesome.

You know its those kind of words we would expect to hear from 'muslim' arab leaders or any decent human beings, yet we have non-muslims speaking louder than our 'muslim' leaders

[crayon]

Bolivia cuts Israel ties over Gaza

"Evo Morales, the president of Bolivia, says he is breaking off ties with Israel in protest against its war in Gaza, which has left more than 1,000 Palestinians dead."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/am...461671162.html

:smile:

[IslamicRevival]

Great People like George Galloway put these Saudi puppets to shame!

Its a tragedy we do not have someone who has the guts to speak out and tell the truth

Dont these people realise they will stand in front of Allah SWT one day?

[Whatsthepoint]

I posted this in another thread, but it sums up my attitude towards Areab leaders:

It's Arabs who screwed up Palestinians. They started several wars that resulted in Israel getting bigger and Palestine being occupied and once they figured they don't want to fight any more they seemed to stop caring for them, at least they're not willing to do anything, even now when Palis need help most in 60 years.
If the Arab nations sat still, we would probably have 1947 borders and possibly Palis still living in their houses.

[HKabdullah]

It is interesting how easily we all are ready to criticize the Muslim rulers, yet were we to seriously examine ourselves and count our mistakes, negligence, and laziness with respect to our religion, we would find many. So we could not then seriously examine what we might do with tremendous power and wealth and how the Shaytaan would tempt us with that more. But we are hasty a people in criticizing the rulers of Muslims lands--lands that are known for establishing Tawheed: which is exactly what our beloved messenger (sallallahu 'alayhi wa salam) came to establish, which is what Allah ta'alaa loves more than anything else, and which is the primary purpose of our existence.

[HKabdullah]

What I mentioned in my last post is not entitled "The mistakes of the Rulers are Good". But it is about the Islamic methodology and attitude towards the Muslim rulers who are known for aiding in the establishment of tawheed in their land and spreading it whilst having mistakes, as no one is free from mistakes.

Tameem ad-Daaree (radiyallaahu ’anhu) said:

“The Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, (three times), “The Religion is naseehah (sincerity and sincere advice).” We said, “To whom?” He said, “To Allaah, His Book, His Messenger, and to the leaders of the Muslims and the general people.” [1]

Imaam an-Nawawee (d.676H) – rahimahullaah – commented on all of it, and the comment specifically on "to the leaders of the Muslims" is: Sincerity to the Leaders is to help them upon the truth. To obey them in it. To order them with it. To remind and advise them with kindness and gentleness. To remind them of that which they are heedless and neglectful of. To help them fulfill those rights of the Muslims that have not reached them yet. Not to rebel against them. To enamour the hearts of the people with obedience to them.

And the the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, “Whosoever desires to advise the ruler, then let him not do so publicly. So do not do so publicly, but take him by his hand and take him into privacy. So if he accepts his advice, then he has achieved his objective. And if he refuses, then he has offered that which was upon him.”

Hasan: Related by Ahmad (3/403) and Ibn Abee ’Aasim in Kitaabus-Sunnah (2/251). It was declared hasan by al-Albaanee in Dhilaalul-Jannah fee Takhreejis-Sunnah (no. 1096).

But we have become a roudy people. Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzaan said, "Islaam is a religion of sanctity, and religion of tranquility, a religion based upon knowledge, it is not a religion of confusion and noise. It is a religion that aims to bring about tranquility and sanctity, alongside the working of beneficial and praisworthy deeds, such as aiding the Muslims and supplicating for them, and providing them with wealth and..." But we are roudy and we do sit-ins and demonstrations, expecting benefit from these when there is no shari'-legislated benefit and thereafter expecting that Allah will give us whatever we think we desire because of some greatness we have achieved. We are impatient. Even the Messenger (sallallahu 'alayhi wa salam) became angry at one of his companions, when torture and killings of Muslims was known in Makkah, when the companion asked him When will Allah's help come? He admonished the companion and related to him the stories of the Muslims of Bani Isra'eel who did not turn their back on Allah even when thrown into a ditch and then cut in half.

[HKabdullah]

I though I might follow-up my last post and end with

The great advice of the noble and famous scholar Ibn Al-Qayyim (rahimahullah) on The Reasons for the Oppression of the rulers- The Corruption of the People

(I posted my own comments at the end). He posts the following in the 8th Century Hijrah, so imagine our situation being even further in time from the conmpanions:

"And reflect in His, the Most High’s wisdom in making the kings of the servants, their leaders and their rulers to be of the same type as their actions (i.e. those of the servant’s). Rather, it is as if their actions (those of the servants) became manifest in the appearances of their rulers and kings. If they remain upright, then their kings will remain upright, and if they turn away (from uprightness), then they (the kings) too will turn away from uprightness. And if they (the servants) oppress [themselves and others], then their kings and rulers will oppress [them], and if their appears plotting and deception from them, their rulers will [be made to] behave likewise, and if they (the servants) prevent the rights of Allaah that are with them, and become stingy with respect to them (i.e. withhold the rights of each other), then their kings and their rulers will withhold the right that they (the servants) have from them, and will become stingy with respect to them. And if they take from the one who is considered weak, what they do not deserve to take from him in their dealings (i.e. misappropriate from him), then the kings will take from them (the servants) what they do not deserve to take (from them) and will inflict them with taxes and [other forms of] service. And everything that they (the servants) take away from the weak person, the kings will take away from them with power, force. So their actions (those of the servants) become manifest in their actions (those of the kings and rulers).

And it is not from the Divine wisdom that the evil-doers and the sinners are
made to be ruled over [by anyone] except by one who is of their like.

And when the very first band (of Islaam) was the best of the generations, and the most pious of them, then their rulers were likewise. And when they became tarnished (i.e. corrupted), the Rulers were made corrupted over them. Thus, the wisdom of Allaah refuses that the likes of Mu’aawiyah, and ‘Umar bin ‘Abdil- ‘Azeez are put in authority over us in the likes of these times [the 8th Century Hijra], let alone the likes of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. Rather, our rulers are in accordance with our (nature) and the rulers of those before us were in accordance with their (nature). And both of the two matters necessitate wisdom and what it requires.

And the one who has deep rooted intelligence, when he moves his though around in this subject will see the Divine wisdom that runs through al-Qadaa wal-Qadr (Ordainment and Pre-Decree), externally and internally, just as it runs through al-Khalq qal-Amr (the Creation and the Command). So beware from thinking with your corrupt though that anything of His ordainments and decrees are devoid of the far-reaching wisdom. Rather, all of His, the most High's ordainments and decrees take place form the most perfect angles of correctness and wisdom. However, the weak intellects are veiled, by way of their weakness, from perceiving these [aspects of widsom], just like eyes suffering day-blindness are veiled, by way of their weakness from the light of the sun..." End quote from Ibn al-Qayyim

Source: Miftaah Daar is-Sa’aadah (2/177) [Daar Ibn ‘Affaan]

So we spend our time critizing others and expend little of it in seriously studying our deen in order to fix our important (religious) affairs. We try force off Allah's Qadr. But the scholars mention the ayah of Allah in the Qur'an where Allahs says to mankind he will not fix the situation of a people until they fix what is in themselves. And the scholars of Islam mention that the problem is not our being "inferior" (in number, technology or weapons) as Allah gave victory to his Messenger even though they were less in number, technology, weapons, and so on because they held Islam which is truly superior. The problem is correcting our affairs in religion, in our creed, and our methodology. In fact, this is what Muhammad (sallallu' alayhi wa salam) started with in Makkah. Not with demonstration, sit-ins, and noise. But with Tawheed and with Hikmah.

[sur]

Further Proof >> http://www.entekhabnews.net/IRAN-NEWS/Society/343.html

What do you expect when the corrupt Saudis are issuing idiotic "Fatwah's"?

These people are part of the Zionists

hmmm i dont see the problem with that fatwah.... it is completely justified. its funny how the enemies of islam like to call everyone following the correct path of the prophet and the sahaba a ******, abdul wahab called people back to the quran and sunnah of the prophet and he was rightly guided. people didnt like the correct path they made a killing off grave worshipping it was a good business for them so they labeled his followers ****** as to make it seem they are a sect. all these stupid consipracy theories abt ******s linked to zionists is really stupid. yes i agree that the arab leaders are corrupt and there are much more pressing matters than the graves at this time like the plight of the people in gaza.

Bukhari:-
Volumn 001, Book 008, Hadith Number 427.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas : When the last moment of the life of Allah's Apostle came he started putting his 'Khamisa' on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets." The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.



Sahih Muslim:
Book 004, Hadith Number 2121.
------------------------------
Chapter : It is forbidden to sit over the grave and observe prayer facing towards it.

Abu Marthad al-Ghanawi reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)as saying: Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.

Qur'aan:[035:022] Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. God can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves. this included shuhadaa' coz though they are "living" but still they are in graves, so no one can claim i go to so-&-so's grave coz he was shaheed, so he's living, so he can listen to me & intercede to Allah for me....
Saying all above, i doubt fatwa would be as it's being portraied... let's see the fatwa first then comment on that..


==========================
& i know arab leaders r bad, but how about Hamas who's riddled with spies(as someone else on this forum claimed). Who gives evil-hell Bound-israelis an excuse to kill innocent civilians by throwing useless rockets & THEN make their offices within civilian population giving gutter-sludge-israelis another excuse to kill civilians.

Islam teaches that untill u r powerful enough to take enemy head-on, endure persecution by staying silent or by migrating to some peaceful area.

While muslim world is divided & weak it's foolishness to provoke israeli evil. Confronting an enemy u can't take on by proper/organized war(Jihad) is unprecedented in islam..... can u show me one example from prophet's life where he confronted enemy in un-organized gorella type warfare????

Stop whining about why snake(israel) bit u, ask why r u still sitting in snake riddled land.....
U can't tame scorpions, they r going to sting u anyways, so either get united & powerful enough to kill snakes & scorpions or run for ur life...

[جوري]

If Egypt opened the border Israelis could say Palis can get their supplies there so there's no need to open their borders and checkpoints.
My two cents.

There should be no borders amongst Muslims, you have the brits to thank for the pan Arabism
we'll all be responsible for what is happening to the palis.. I have made myself innocent from the filth and the hypocrisy of the Arabs..
they are as Allah swt mentioned in the Quran

At-Tauba 9 Verse 97
The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and Hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger but Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Let them get drunk and issue faulty fatwas while little children die of illegal chemicals used by the Zionist pigs.. one day all guilty parties will be held responsible of what their hands have brought forth...

7asbona Allah wa'ni3ma alwakeel.. I am so hurt by this, I can't believe we have let this crap go on for so long imsad

[HKabdullah]

I have made myself innocent from the filth and the hypocrisy of the Arabs..
they are as Allah swt mentioned in the Quran

At-Tauba 9 Verse 97
The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and Hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger but Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Let them get drunk and issue faulty fatwas

I can't believe we let this (mess) go on for so long

Separating Muslims based on asabbiyyah and hizbiyyah, like this example of hating Arabs and creating enmity between Muslims who are Arab and who aren't, is one of the reasons we are in this mess.

Another is false interpretation the religion; or interpretations and understandings from laymen without the advice of the knowledgable and righteous scholars. Allah provides has a high status for them in his deen and mentions them in the quran in many places and gives them a higher status than those who are just righteous as opposed to righteous AND having knowledge.

Allah ta'allaa says, "Allâh bears witness that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He is always) maintaining His creation in Justice. Lâ ilâh illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Aali Imran 3:18)

So from amongst the scholars of tafseer is Ibn Katheer. The ayah first quoted is correctly translated as, "The bedouins are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to not know the limits which Allah has revealed to His Messenger" [Taubah; 97].

While a laymen might literally translate the first arabic word in the verse as Arabs, scholars of Tafsir agree that the beduins are who Allah specifies in this verse and this is agreed upon by the companions including Ibn Abaas (the cousin of the prophet and a well known authority in Tafseer).

Ibn Katheer adds, "Allah states that there are disbelievers, hypocrites and believers among the bedouins. He also states that the disbelief and hypocrisy of the bedouins is worse and deeper than the disbelief and hypocrisy of others. They are the most likely of being ignorant of the commandments that Allah has revealed to His Messenger . Al-A`mash narrated that Ibrahim said, "A bedouin man sat next to Zayd bin Sawhan while he was speaking to his friends. Zayd had lost his hand during the battle of Nahawand. The bedouin man said, `By Allah! I like your speech. However, your hand causes me suspicion.' Zayd said, `Why are you suspicious because of my hand, it is the left hand [that is cut]' The bedouin man said, `By Allah! I do not know which hand they cut off (for committing theft), is it the right or the left' Zayd bin Sawhan said, `Allah has said the truth,


[الاٌّعْرَابُ أَشَدُّ كُفْرًا وَنِفَاقًا وَأَجْدَرُ أَلاَّ يَعْلَمُواْ حُدُودَ مَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ]



Source: Translations and Tafsir Taken from Tafseer Ibn Katheer.

[جوري]

I am not sure how the translation of al'a3rab as above 'Arabs of the desert' to your preferred Bedouins makes any difference? From amongst their midst indeed are hypocrites, and ignorant!
Given that I am Arabic.. I am not really sure what enmity you think I am creating? -- I am clearly speaking of the 'leadership' under which those countries are held in bondage a natural conclusion given the title of the thread? The Arab leaders are worse than the Israeli ones
perhaps you should live in Saudi a while? or see what mess the Qatar guy got the palis into, browse their palaces a bit to see the liquor and the women and the gambling at the same time they give 400+ lashes to doctors not treating a princesses' addiction under the guise of them having committed lewd acts, with no evidence whatsoever to back up the allegations, or maybe the Emirati guy who spent millions for the W hore Mariah carey and fire works for a new mall and opening pagan temples for Sikhs whilst the palis who ironically are also Arabs are dying in scores in the most vile manners & are trapped from all sides without even the most basic human needs of water, or electricity or medical care before giving me a lesson on seeking scholarly advise?

I am not here to pass kuffer on them, but many scholars have done so, expressing my anger at their impotence is the least I can do.. I think the real issue is for us to refrain from giving 'morality lessons' when there are other issues far more pressing.. the problems won't be solved either if we keep burying our head in the sand thinking all is well-- simply because such folks have been bestowed the title of 'Muslims'

Thank you

:w:

[HKabdullah]

Even though it's become obvious to me know that you were referring to the Arab leaders, it was still misleading to say "the Arabs" when you referred to how filthy Arab leaders are, despite the context of the thread.

I actually have been to Saudi several times, and my longest stay there was 3 months, if it can be considered a while. No one is trying to cover up for the mistakes of any rulers. On the other hand, this does still not justify criticizing all Arab rulers while providing vague and "cliche" evidences, some fo which which you might find accurate references for, but not enough to vilify all Arab leaders and Arab people in authority. Even when you find evidence and begin to criticize or if the people in their respective country begin to demonstrate or rebel, this really only weakens the Muslims (i.e. when they rebel against Muslim rulers and openly criticize them). It doesn't help the situation of the people in Gaza nor in Saudi. Our dua, our wealth, and things like this help them.

So even Ibn Umar, other companions, and the knowledgable from the tabi'een did not fight the oppressive Hajjaj or criticize him publicly knowing very well to follow the prophetic advice in regards to obey the ruler, even the oppressive ones, and on advising the rulers with sincerity in secrecy.

The issue most pressing is truly tawheed, and this is where all the non-Muslim leaders lack They are clamoring and making loud noises whilst committing the greatest aggression and that is shirk. I'm assuming, given all the posts the clamoring contributes more to the Palestinian people than the wealth and hospital services the Saudi public and kingship provided. Talk is cheap.

I am not trying to defend the sins or oppression of any leader, but to give an explanation why they exist. As the famous scholar Ibn al-Qayyim mentioned, It is our repeated neglect of the most pressing matter- tawheed (studying it in our life and living it)and our easiness with bringing other personal things (regardless of what they may be) ahead of it that keeps us in a cycle of loss. While on the other hand, even when the prophet and his companions were being tested with torture and murder, they made this issue of tawheed most important. That is why Allah gave them victory and that is why He gave them blessed rulers like Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali.

I am sorry if I offended you in my last post; that was not my intention and I definitely misconstrued some things on my part.

[جوري]

We don't have an Islamic state anywhere, and no one is governing by Islamic Jurisprudence, least of which when it comes to their own folly which I believe can be classified under 'hypocrisy' so I am very justified in accusing the entire governing body!
None of the examples I have given were 'cliched', there is no adage to the story, it is simple headline news any google search will yield you such results.

I personally don't see any relevance to this subject under the title of 'The Arab leaders are worse than the Israeli ones' to tawheed? and lastly have already told you, that I myself am Arabic...

No offense taken, I am simply not seeing the relevance of one topic to the other

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

[HKabdullah]

The relevance of Tawheed to this threads' topic, 'The Arab leaders are worse than the Israeli ones', is simple and it is as clear as the day and night.

The majority of the Arab leaders are Muslim. In other words, simply by accepting Islam, they have accepted Tawheed completely, which is:

1-Accepting almighty Allah as their sole Lord by His description in the Qur'an and the sunnah (i.e. his names and attributes). It's proof's are numerous and one is: "And to Allah belong the most Perfect and Beautiful Names, so call on Him by them, and leave the company of those who belie or deny His Names. They will be requited for what they used to do.' [Al-Aa'raaf (7): 180]
2- Singling out Allah alone in His actions, with the belief that He is the only Creator of the creation, and amongst its proofs are: "And there is no living creature on earth but its providion is due from Allaah. [Hud (11):6] and "Allaah is the Creator of all things." [az-Zumar (39): 62]]
2- Singling out Allah alone (in worship) by the actions of the slaves such as seeking nearness ro Him, supplication, vowing, sacrifice, hope, fear, etc. and the proofs for all of these and more are numerous, one is: "Say: "Verily, I am commanded to worship Allah (alone) by making the deen sincerely for Him."" [az-Zumar (39):11]

On the other hand, the Israeli's and the non-Muslim leaders, by rejecting Islam, they have blatantly rejected Tawheed which is as is mentioned above.

The conclusion (1): Tawheed is the greatest of beliefs and actions. Shirk is the worst of aggressions and simply the WORST act hated by Allah. So how can the Muslim leaders be worse than the Israeli one's?

The conclusion (2): We are suffering today not because of leader so-and-so, but because of our neglect for really studying Tawheed, learning it, and wholly implementing it in our life. We should carefully understand that it NOT the so-called "superiority" of the West or the laziness and weakness of the Arab leaders, but it is Allah who TRULY dictates the situation anywhere. One should then really ponder over why Allah allows the Muslims, to be devoured, exterminated, and punished.

Allah says, "Evil (sins and disobedience of Allâh, etc.) has appeared on land and sea because of what the hands of men have earned (by oppression and evil deeds, etc.), that Allâh may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return (by repenting to Allâh, and begging His Pardon). (Ar-Rum 30: 41)

In other words, we are all responsible for what Allah is making us tasting. It is not as simple as putting it only on the West or the few Arab leaders.

and Allah says, "Verily! Allâh will not change the good condition of a people as long as they do not change their state of goodness themselves (by committing sins and by being ungrateful and disobedient to Allâh). But when Allâh wills a people's punishment, there can be no turning back of it, and they will find besides Him no protector. (Ra'd 13:11)


The conclusion (3): In fact, the fatwa is amazing, because it recommends something that is meant to correct our affairs, specifically in Tawheed, and this Tawheed is the most noblest of affairs. Many of the people in Baghdad excessively praise the dead Sahabah, saints, etc. They commit border-line, and sometimes, fraglant acts against Tawheed. So this fatwa gives the better alternative to correct the affairs of the people and by doing so, aids in correcting our sins and disbelief, and therefore aids in bringing closer the help of Allah.

[جوري]

I am not sure, what in your mind is a greater offense? governing under kaffir law and allowing the dissolution of the umma and the Islamic state thereby allowing for the death of millions the Muslims world over or iraqis praising the sahaba? not that the latter is any less an offense, but I am rather amused by your logic or lack thereof ..

I will end this on a humorous note for the fact, that I think engaging you on this topic seems to dig you into a deeper hole!

You'll forgive me if I don't share your stance or see how oranges compare to apples

Media Tags are no longer supported

turn your volume down, as the pictures are worth a thousand words!

:w:

[HKabdullah]

Many of the Shi'ite of Iraq do not simply praise the Sahabah. You have left out my words which were "excessive praise", so what you said has completely changed the meaning of what was really being mentioned. There is nothing wrong in praise which is mentioning good things about Allah's messenger and his companions. It is actually something permissible. Excessive praise is not. And the meaning of "excessive praise" is simple and could not possibly be confused as I immediately mentiong the meaning after mentioning the words: that excessive praise is contrary to Tawheed (i.e. it is worshipping Allah in any form or way; it is minor or major shirk). In others, they worship dead saints, visit shrines for ibadah, and do similar to the graves of the Sahabah. There calling upon Hasan and Husain in their dua and prayers is well known and so is their visiting shrines.

The Evidences are numerous:
http://www.reuters.com/article/middl...s/idUSL7273743
http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news...I1NDM4NDI1OQ==
Minhaaj us-Sunnah by Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah. As I understand it, excerpts of the book regarding the Shi'ah are online.

Then moving onto the next topic, about ruling by other than what Allah has legislated.

The Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: "The Khilaafah in my Ummah after me will be for thirty years. Then there will be kingship after that." [Saheeh – Reported by Ahmad, Tirmidthee, Aboo Ya’laa.]

So if he knew there would be kingship, what is his advice?

The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

"The best of your rulers are those whom you love and who love you, and those who supplicate Allah in your favor and you supplicate Allah in their favor. The worst of your rulers are those whom you hate and who hate you; and whom you curse and who curse you." It was asked (by those who were present): "Should not we oppose them?" He said, "No, as long as they establish Salat; as long as they establish Salat in your midst." (Muslim)

The next statement is something I have copied from a book I own, entitled "Explanations of the Creed" and authored by Muhammad al-Hasan ibn 'Alee ibn Khalf al-Barbahaaree.
This first part is taken from point 34 (p. 43):
It is not permissible to fight the ruler nor to rebel against him even if he oppresses. This is due to the saying of the Messenger of Allah to Abu Dharr al-Ghifaaree, "Have patience even if he is an Abyssinian slave." [Its like is reported in Muslim; Eng. trans. vol.3, nos. 4525, 4526] and his (sallallahu 'alayhi wa salam) saying to the Ansaar, "Have patience until you meet me at the Pool." [Reported by al-Bukhaaree; Eng. trans. vol.5, no. 136 ] There is no fighting against the ruler in the Sunnah. It causes destruction of the religion and the worldly affairs.
This second part is taken from the footnotes on point 34 (p. 43)
Hudhaifah, radiallahu 'anhu, reports in a longer hadeeth that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa salam) said, "There will come leaders who will not follow my guidance and will not follow my Sunnah. There will be amongst them men who will have hearts of devils in the bodies of humans." He (Hudhaifah) asked, "What shall I do O Messenger of Allah if I reach that?" He replied, "You should hear and obey the ruler even if he flogs your back and takes your wealth, then still hear and obey". [Reported by Muslim; Eng. trans. 3/1029/no.4554].

These Hadeeth can apply to the Muslim kings who rule by other than what Allah has legislated.

Concerning the issue of ruling by other than what Allaah has revealed, then this is a great topic which cannot be discussed on the likes of this forum. I recommend that you await the release of "Fitnatut-Takfeer" of Shaykh al-Albaanee. This contains the fatwaas of Shaykh al-Albaanee, Shaykh Ibn Baaz and Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen on this great topic. And all of them are in agreement. Takfeer is not to be performed upon a ruler until it is known that he rejected Allaah’s rule as a matter of belief, or that he deemed secular law more superior to that of Islaam, or he viewed Islaam to be outmoded, backward etc. As for the one who replaces the Sharee’ah with secular law (tabdeel) then he too is not to be judged kaafir automatically until it is known that his action occurred from him due to his belief that secular law is superior etc. Likewise for the one who refers to secular law for judgement and makes it a reference point, he too is not to be judged a kaafir unless it is known from him that he holds this to be permissible as a matter of belief.

I will mention a few quotations of the scholars anyways to show that they are all clearly upon the same:

Ibn Al-Qayyim: "And as for the replaced law (al-hukmul-mubaddal) - and THAT IS RULING BY OTHER THAN WHAT ALLAAH HAS REVEALED - then it is not permissible to implement it nor to act by it, and it is not permissible to follow it, and the one guilty of it (saahibuhu) is BETWEEN (THE STATES) OF KUFR (DISBELIEF), FUSOOQ (REBELLION) AND DHULM (OPPRESSION)."

Shaikh Ibn ’Uthaymeen said, "And there is a doubt (shubhah) with many of the youth, which has become firmly and deeply rooted in their minds and it has kindled the issue of revolting against the rulers - and it is: that those rulers replace the Sharee’ah (haa’ulaa`il-Hukkaam MUBADDILOON), they prescribe the (secular) laws from themselves and they do not rule by what Allaah has revealed and the rule is present - but they prescribed laws from themselves.....Does the description of apostasy apply to them or not? And this requires knowing the evidences which indicate that this saying or action is apostasy, then applying them to an individual, and then, whether this individual has any doubts (which may excuse him) or not? Meaning: Sometimes a text can indicate that this action is kufr and this saying is kufr, but there are preventive barriers which prevent the application of the ruling of kufr upon this specific individual… and these preventive barriers are many, amongst them dhann (speculation) which is ignorance and amongst them ghalabah (which means being overcome by something)…"

Then the shaykh gives some examples from the sunnah - so he mentions the hadeeth of the man who asked for his body to be burned after his death and the ashes to be scattered across the earth. So the shaykh explains that the outward manifestation of his 'aqeedah is kufr, and doubt in the power of Allaah. And the shaykh gives the example of the one who when he finds his lost camel in the desert says: "O Allaah, you are my servant and I am your Lord". So the shaykh says that this is a word of kufr, but the one who says it is not to be declared a disbeliever, because he was overcome (i.e. had no power of it) due to the intensity of his happiness. And the Shaykh also gives the example of "the one who is compelled to kufr - so he utters a word of kufr, or does an action of kufr, but he is not to be declared a disbeliever by a text of the Qur’aan, because he does not desire it and has not made it his choice." at-Tahdheer min Fitnatit-Takfeer of Shaykh Naasir (p. 105-107).


You are repeatedly posting things that are about criticizing rulers and trying to paint a picture of me as someone who likes corrupt rulers or does not believe that a numerable portion of rulers are actually corrupt. Please understand that I am in no way accepting the faults of rulers as permissible. Neither have I indulged in my personal opinions clearing any ruler of wrongdoings or confirming that they done wrong things because it is of no benefit to anyone in these forums.

Rather, my objective is only to present the clear methodology in our religion with regards to the rulers, whether oppressive or just. I believe the more people who read this with an open mind will read over the statements made by the scholars and the evidences from the Qur'aan and the sunnah that I have posted. This, I believe, will be of benefit because we can focus on studying our religion and correcting our own mistakes in our own lives: which is attainable and reasonably within our reach-- something that our religion calls us towards-- not critizing Muslim rulers and rousing people to demonstrations and the like, which our religion tells us wastes times and weakens our resolve. So the proof for us needing to study our religion, have unconditional belief in what we learn, implement it, and have patience is:

Allah (subhana wa ta'allaa) says, "By Time. Verily, Man is in loss! Except those who believe (in Islâmic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, and recommend one another to the truth (i.e. order one another to perform all kinds of good deeds (Al-Ma'rûf)which Allâh has ordained, and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds (Al-Munkar)which Allâh has forbidden), and recommend one another to patience (for the sufferings, harms, and injuries which one may encounter in Allâh's Cause during preaching His religion of Islâmic Monotheism or Jihâd, etc.). (Al-'Asr)

[Vito]

You sound just like the imam at the mosque I go to. He was just talking about this today.

[جوري]

aslaam 3lykoum akhi..
why drown me in volumes of copied material than admit to the obvious?
There is no need for the circuitous route, or bringing shiites into the thread as the topic has nothing to do with the matter, again I bring your attention to the thread title:

The Arab leaders are worse than the Israeli ones

which is the bottom line of all this, and a couple of posts ago, I said I have not passed takfir on anyone but many scholars have already done so. Are they hypocrites and worst than kaffirs.. I really believe so, I have stated my reasons above though I need not list any, as the current situation we are in highlights the obvious, further, we are not living under an Islamic state, or governing by its jurisprudence -- There is really no point to all of what you are doing here.. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.. and let's leave it as such. I can and in fact read books on my private time, but you are having a difficult time tying this all together and I simply can't sit through another lecture that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic!

Jazaka Allah

:w:

[Azy]

There should be no borders amongst Muslims, you have the brits to thank for the pan Arabism

It just wouldn't do to blame the Ottoman empire for making the Arabs a part of WWI in the first place.

[جوري]

The other thread deflated your ego, you've come to purge your soul here? :lol:
there there... point well taken!

cheers

[Nablus]

The Arab leaders protect Israel more than Western countries

[Azy]

The other thread deflated your ego, you've come to purge your soul here? :lol:

Nah but it does seem odd that threads tend to get closed before I can offer a response. :rollseyes

[جوري]

Not odd at all, least of which when there is 12 or so threads on the very matter.. you should familiarize yourself with FAQ amongst other things -- and consider it a favor done you, as you have the tendency to beat a dead horse without imparting anything of substance!

I told you previously.. you are not skilled enough to take me on!

cheers

[The_Prince]

The relevance of Tawheed to this threads' topic, 'The Arab leaders are worse than the Israeli ones', is simple and it is as clear as the day and night.

The majority of the Arab leaders are Muslim. In other words, simply by accepting Islam, they have accepted Tawheed completely, which is:

1-Accepting almighty Allah as their sole Lord by His description in the Qur'an and the sunnah (i.e. his names and attributes). It's proof's are numerous and one is: "And to Allah belong the most Perfect and Beautiful Names, so call on Him by them, and leave the company of those who belie or deny His Names. They will be requited for what they used to do.' [Al-Aa'raaf (7): 180]
2- Singling out Allah alone in His actions, with the belief that He is the only Creator of the creation, and amongst its proofs are: "And there is no living creature on earth but its providion is due from Allaah. [Hud (11):6] and "Allaah is the Creator of all things." [az-Zumar (39): 62]]
2- Singling out Allah alone (in worship) by the actions of the slaves such as seeking nearness ro Him, supplication, vowing, sacrifice, hope, fear, etc. and the proofs for all of these and more are numerous, one is: "Say: "Verily, I am commanded to worship Allah (alone) by making the deen sincerely for Him."" [az-Zumar (39):11]

On the other hand, the Israeli's and the non-Muslim leaders, by rejecting Islam, they have blatantly rejected Tawheed which is as is mentioned above.

The conclusion (1): Tawheed is the greatest of beliefs and actions. Shirk is the worst of aggressions and simply the WORST act hated by Allah. So how can the Muslim leaders be worse than the Israeli one's?

The conclusion (2): We are suffering today not because of leader so-and-so, but because of our neglect for really studying Tawheed, learning it, and wholly implementing it in our life. We should carefully understand that it NOT the so-called "superiority" of the West or the laziness and weakness of the Arab leaders, but it is Allah who TRULY dictates the situation anywhere. One should then really ponder over why Allah allows the Muslims, to be devoured, exterminated, and punished.

Allah says, "Evil (sins and disobedience of Allâh, etc.) has appeared on land and sea because of what the hands of men have earned (by oppression and evil deeds, etc.), that Allâh may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return (by repenting to Allâh, and begging His Pardon). (Ar-Rum 30: 41)

In other words, we are all responsible for what Allah is making us tasting. It is not as simple as putting it only on the West or the few Arab leaders.

and Allah says, "Verily! Allâh will not change the good condition of a people as long as they do not change their state of goodness themselves (by committing sins and by being ungrateful and disobedient to Allâh). But when Allâh wills a people's punishment, there can be no turning back of it, and they will find besides Him no protector. (Ra'd 13:11)


The conclusion (3): In fact, the fatwa is amazing, because it recommends something that is meant to correct our affairs, specifically in Tawheed, and this Tawheed is the most noblest of affairs. Many of the people in Baghdad excessively praise the dead Sahabah, saints, etc. They commit border-line, and sometimes, fraglant acts against Tawheed. So this fatwa gives the better alternative to correct the affairs of the people and by doing so, aids in correcting our sins and disbelief, and therefore aids in bringing closer the help of Allah.

you claim the leaders are following tawheed, you do know part of tawheed is making Allah's sharia the rule of law with no man made laws right?????? you keep saying we need to implement tawheed in our lives, yet throughout your posts you have failed to mention that the rulers are not even doing that! these Arab rulers do not follow by Allah's laws, they only pick and choose, yes they implement some sharia, but last i checked Allah didnt say pick and choose what you like, rather he condemned people who pick and choose! so what are you on about????????

secondly, these Arab rulers are ALLIES and PROTECTORS with the enemies of Islam, and according to the Quran those who ally with the enemies of Islam become the kaffirs themselves. Saudia and many other Arab countries have American bases in their land, the same American army which has slaughtered thousands of Muslims, the same army who has manufactured weapons and sent to Israel to occupy Al-Aqsa and kill the Muslims of Palestine. Egypt and Jordan have full relations with Israel while Israel does all its crimes.

thirdly, i am so sick and tired of hearing people like you say tawheed tawheed tawheed, yes tawheed is very imporant, the MOST important ruling, but you use it as an excuse, when the Muslims were few in number, did the prophet keep saying hey we will study tawheed none stop and then go out to war? no he didnt, he made war AND taught the people tawheed, do not forget there were HYPOCRITES amongst the Muslims, using your logic the prophet would have never gone to war but rather he would have stayed behind preaching none stop until all the Muslims were pure goody good boys, yet that never happened, hence this is nonsense by you and your 'ulama', you want to keep the Muslims backward and ban jihad, for people like you the only way jihad can be made is when we have a perfect Muslim society, yet there is not a SINGLE ISLAMIC TEXT which says that, and the prophet Muhammads life even refutes that nonsense. secondly the prophet Muhammad taught that there will ALWAYS BE A GROUP OF TRUE MUSLIMS, hence these true Muslims must raise the banner of Jihad and fight to protect the Muslims, not simply stay home and preach about tawheed none stop.

[HKabdullah]

you claim the leaders are following tawheed, you do know part of tawheed is making Allah's sharia the rule of law with no man made laws right??????

I don't need to claim anything. By fact, they are Muslims. Consequently, by fact, they have accepted Tawheed which is believing that Allah is the only Rabb, the only one worthy of being worshipped, and He is Named and Described in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. Unless there is some CLEAR evidence that they reject Tawheed as a matter of belief, they are the legitimate Muslim leaders.

As far as using man-made laws and not using the Shari'ah, then this is a lengthy topic that needs to be studied in-depth before "declaring hypocricy" or before declaring takfir on rulers (the scholars have writtens books on it and I have mentioned one in my last post). One person mentioned several times that "a group of scholars" have declared hypocricy on the leaders. So EVEN IF they could provide accurate references for these allegations, they need to know that there are levels of hypocricy, of kufr, and of shirk (which may or may not take us out of the fold of Islam depending on the level). Again, I refer the book to you and the last post for reference. That the scholars of Islaam, with knowledge and with proofs, AGREE that the ruler is STILL LEGITIMATE if he makes man-made laws, uses them as a point of reference, etc. whilst NOT believing that they are superior or better than Islam, etc. (and the details of each case are more specific and deserve more attention). In other words, to declare anyone at the level of major shirk, hypocricy, or kufr such that it takes them out of the fold of Islaam and thus an illegitimate ruler takes an oustanding amount of CLEAR evidence. Then, with regards such legitimate and abusive leaders OR Kings (yes, Kings) Allaah's Messenger (sallallahu 'alayhi wasalam) told us to obey them EVEN if they flog us and take our wealth. Is that permissible from the Shariah? No, So they are still the rulers.

you keep saying we need to implement tawheed in our lives, yet throughout your posts you have failed to mention that the rulers are not even doing that! these Arab rulers do not follow by Allah's laws, they only pick and choose, yes they implement some sharia, but last i checked Allah didnt say pick and choose what you like,

Again, as far as the ruler not doing some from the shari'ah, the rulers are still legitimate Muslim rulers and this action does not immediately make the otherwise without the neccessary conditions, and the proof is what was mentioned above and the reference for that is mentioned in my last post.

Even more wisdom in what the leaders do is that they are the likes of Us. This is clearly stated in my post about the Wisdom of Ibn Al-Qayyim= The reasons for the oppressiveness of the ruler is the oppressiveness of the people. So they nitpick like we do when most of the Ummah has chosen to become tired with Tawheed and more interested in politics and the mistakes of others or acts of shirk. Allaah gives us leaders like us. We shouldn't expect great rulers like 'Umar ibn Abdul Azeez or Salaahudeen Ayyubi, let alone Abu Bakr or Umar.

when the Muslims were few in number, did the prophet keep saying hey we will study tawheed none stop and then go out to war? no he didnt, he made war AND taught the people tawheed, do not forget there were HYPOCRITES amongst the Muslims, using your logic the prophet would have never gone to war but rather he would have stayed behind preaching none stop until all the Muslims were pure goody good boys

I haven't seen this logic in any of my postings. The truth is that you shouldn't forget what Allah says in the Qur'an and what His Messenger (sallallahu 'alayhi wa salam) said in the Ahaadeeth about the sahabah. They said that they were the best of generations, then the generation after them, and then the generation after them! Thus, they had the best rulers!

On top of it, Many of these Sahaabah did not even live to see the flourishing of Islaam at its later stages during the conquest of Makkah and the relative peace it came with. So, as Muslims, we are people who are interested in learning and practicing tawheed and preaching from what we practice. Those are our goals and their results are in the hands of Allaah. So For the messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wasalam), he was never after results to control Madinah, then Makkah. No, no, this was not the case! His goals were to teach tawheed! And the results were left to Allaah. So it was Allaah's will that the people of Madinah should accept this call to Tawheed! It was Allaah's will, that by the acceptance of their call to Tawheed and their additional strength to the Muslims, the Muslims were ABLE to wage Jihaad against the Makkans.

So you think we should continuously overthrow the rulers whenever they became corrupt! Do you think that we can establish a sort of sytem that will never allow rulers to become corrupt again once we sort out the first batch? We started with best of systems and the best of possible rulers, Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wasalam) and the four Khulafaa Raashideen, but Allaah willed corruption strike into the lands of the Muslims so that they became a rebellious people (such as their rebellion against Uthman, Ali, Mu'aawiyyah, etc.) and then he raised rulers similar to them in nature (like al-Hajjaaj, etc.)! You can never force off the Qadr of Allaah! Don't you see how useless such a cause is and how noble the cause of learning and calling to Tawheed is? Allaah has placed limits, limits with regards to Him, with regards to His messengers and his companions, with regards to our rulers and scholars and with regards to ourselves. Those limits don't change when a Muslim ruler oppresses us.

hence this is nonsense by you and your 'ulama', you want to keep the Muslims backward and ban jihad, for people like you the only way jihad can be made is when we have a perfect Muslim society, yet there is not a SINGLE ISLAMIC TEXT which says that, and the prophet Muhammads life even refutes that nonsense.

If the Messenger of Allaah (sallallahu 'alayhi wasalam) followed this logic, he would have fought the Quraysh while in Makkah! As someone living in the land of the kufaar, he didnt stage demonstration and protests around the Ka'bah yelling and crying about the tortured Muslims, A' udhu billah! He had patience in calling to Tawheed for thirteen years and it was only Allaah who had willed that some powerful people might heed this call and by doing so, aid Islam in conquering Makkah later on. People might argue that the Muslims already have a state, but this logic is worthless because we are in the same situation as him with respect to our enemies-- our states are weak, etc. We need to follow the example of the prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa salam) and start with Tawheed and even then Allaah doesn't have to gaurantee us anything! Not thirteen years not 100! He ALONE has control over Qadr and his decisions encompass complete wisdom, whether we understand it or not.

And I (Allâh) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone). (Adh-Dhariyat 51:56)

You are also falsely levelling accusations against major scholars who are known to defend the Sunnah even when many people have cursed them! Like Shaykh Abdullaah ibn Baaz, Shaykh Al-Albaani, Shaykh Saleh al-Fawzaan, and the likes who are respected by Muslims the world over. You should be very careful to say evil things against them without some evidence. Allah provides a great place for the scholars of Islaam and the proofs are in the qur'aan as I posted the verses earlier in this thread. As far as them wishing to ban Jihaad, this is gross lie. All of them have BOOKS on Jihaad and mention good about it. This Jihaad has conditions and those conditions are established from the Qur'aan and Sunnah; Islaam is not a religion of confusion and noise left to our whims--not a single aspect of it.

Lastly, It seems that many people are verging way onto pseudo-intellectual writing: constant bullying, insulting, name-calling, not addressing points, addressing points after having distorted them or leaving parts out to paint a completely different picture, mentioning things clearly out-of-context, not addressing things head on.It seems like some people are posting a reply to me without even having read my entire post! If you wish to seriously discuss, take care to read all the points and address them head on with EVIDENCE that you not only CAN cite, but ARE citing as I have actually taken care to read all your points and adress them with references. I thought the point of the forum was to debate at an academic level and for all parties to sincerely desire the truth. It seems like I will no longer be posting on this thread if replies to my posts are more pseudo-intellectual in nature than serious debating.