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mohammed_alim
01-06-2009, 09:06 PM
could some one please tell me in islam are women allowed to be leaders of a muslim country?
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S_87
01-06-2009, 11:00 PM
no they arent
you may want to read this for more info:
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/20677/women%20rulers
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mohammed_alim
01-07-2009, 12:39 AM
thanx
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Chuck
01-07-2009, 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by amani
no they arent
you may want to read this for more info:
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/20677/women%20rulers
I've reservations about that site. Islam online is more credible imo.
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Trumble
01-07-2009, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by amani
no they arent
Somebody tell that to Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Turkey! :rolleyes:
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S_87
01-07-2009, 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
I've reservations about that site. Islam online is more credible imo.
what are ur reservations and what has he said wrong in that fatwa- he made up the hadiths or something?

Somebody tell that to Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Turkey!
yeh maybe america should :p
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Chuck
01-07-2009, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by amani
what are ur reservations and what has he said wrong in that fatwa- he made up the hadiths or something?
Article goes on just more than head of state. The article is saying women should not hold any public position which adds more than the hadith. In the time of Caliph `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, you find women in charge in market places.

Read the following 2 links from Islamonline and compare:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503548828

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar
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Woodrow
01-08-2009, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by mohammed_alim
could some one please tell me in islam are women allowed to be leaders of a muslim country?
Without going into any hadith or the like.

I do not see how it would be possible in a "True" Muslim Country. Stop and think, what would be some of the expected duties of a Muslim Head of a country?

Is it not one of the duties for the head of an Islamic Nation to lead in the daily prayers?
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S_87
01-09-2009, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Article goes on just more than head of state. The article is saying women should not hold any public position which adds more than the hadith. In the time of Caliph `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, you find women in charge in market places.

Read the following 2 links from Islamonline and compare:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503548828

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar
what does the market story have to do with women being leaders of state..?
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Chuck
01-09-2009, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by amani
what does the market story have to do with women being leaders of state..?
Did you read what I said?
You asked: "what has he said wrong in that fatwa- he made up the hadiths or something?"

I said: "Article [fatwa] goes on just more than head of state. The article is saying women should not hold any public position which adds more than the hadith."

Market was just an example to show that women where in charge in market place. Didn't Aisha (ra) took leading role in a war?
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S_87
01-10-2009, 10:17 AM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Did you read what I said?
You asked: "what has he said wrong in that fatwa- he made up the hadiths or something?"

I said: "Article [fatwa] goes on just more than head of state. The article is saying women should not hold any public position which adds more than the hadith."

Market was just an example to show that women where in charge in market place. Didn't Aisha (ra) took leading role in a war?
yes i did and i see the difference. the link i posted goes against htat first link u posted with regards to judges/political figures etc. infact the first link u posted mentions ibn hazam..who was directly quoted with something else on the link i posted.
Big time differences of opinion.
Allah knows best
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doorster
01-10-2009, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by amani
yes i did and i see the difference. the link i posted goes against htat first link u posted with regards to judges/political figures etc. infact the first link u posted mentions ibn hazam..who was directly quoted with something else on the link i posted.
Big time differences of opinion.
Allah knows best
could one safely assume that, that site is dedicated to presenting and promoting the official **"Al-Saud family" version of everything (which includes treatment of women).

In my opinion people on that site will do anything to promote their own ideas and suppress any opinion that would contradict the official **"Al-Saud family version of Islam".

wa salaam

**edit: to amend a misnomer
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Chuck
01-10-2009, 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
could one safely assume that, that site is dedicated to presenting and promoting the official Saudi version of everything (which includes treatment of women).

In my opinion people on that site will do anything to promote their own ideas and suppress any opinion that would contradict the "official Saudi Islam".

wa salaam
I doubt it that is official Saudi version, I've spoken to reputed Saudi scholars and they don't speak like who ever is writing fatwa on Islamqa. Writer on Islamqa doesn't sound very scholarly in the first place.
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doorster
01-10-2009, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
I doubt it that is official Saudi version, I've spoken to reputed Saudi scholars and they don't speak like who ever is writing fatwa on Islamqa. Writer on Islamqa doesn't sound very scholarly in the first place.
ok jazakallah khair I shall amend my post to reflect that
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S_87
01-11-2009, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
could one safely assume that, that site is dedicated to presenting and promoting the official **"Al-Saud family" version of everything (which includes treatment of women).

In my opinion people on that site will do anything to promote their own ideas and suppress any opinion that would contradict the official **"Al-Saud family version of Islam".

wa salaam

**edit: to amend a misnomer
theres not 'al saud version' theres Quran and Sunnah, we take what is Quran and sunnah and there is no this and that version...yes there is difference of opinion...but that link gave daleel from the Quran/Sunnah and from the scholars of the salaf..so if you want to refute feel free...

and yes chuck the sheikh answering the questions IS a sheikh...and if he doesnt answer the question he quotes from other reputed scholars and im not sure what you mean by he doesnt sound scholarly in the first place....
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Ummu Sufyaan
01-11-2009, 11:34 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by amani

yeh maybe america should :p
hahaha nice one :lol:
Reply

doorster
01-11-2009, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by amani
theres not 'al saud version' theres Quran and Sunnah, we take what is Quran and sunnah and there is no this and that version...yes there is difference of opinion...but that link gave daleel from the Quran/Sunnah and from the scholars of the salaf..so if you want to refute feel free...

and yes chuck the sheikh answering the questions IS a sheikh...and if he doesnt answer the question he quotes from other reputed scholars and im not sure what you mean by he doesnt sound scholarly in the first place....
if there no difference between Islam and Al'-saud concoction, tell me under what shariat ruling is an Egyptian Doctor being flogged for failing to help the fancy piece (who learnt her addiction in USA) of one of the princes?

would you like me to list 100s of such evils being done in that country? I bet you that you can find justification from Munajjid for each and every crime being committed by that regime and its masters, against Islam and Muslims
Reply

Chuck
01-11-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by amani
theres not 'al saud version' theres Quran and Sunnah, we take what is Quran and sunnah and there is no this and that version...yes there is difference of opinion...but that link gave daleel from the Quran/Sunnah and from the scholars of the salaf..so if you want to refute feel free...

and yes chuck the sheikh answering the questions IS a sheikh...and if he doesnt answer the question he quotes from other reputed scholars and im not sure what you mean by he doesnt sound scholarly in the first place....
Sister when he gave his answer he mixed his opinion from the reputed scholars of the salaf, that is very wrong imo.

Islamonline has mainly salafi scholars as Islam online is from Qatar. If you been to Qatar, you know most people and almost all scholars in Qatar are salafi. I'm myself is salafi, but that is besides the point. Who ever is running Islamqa is a different breed, calling himself sheik doesn't make one sheik. I've meet scholars from Medina University, and you can notice the difference when you compare his answers with a learned scholar... there is a huge difference. From the looks of it, he is promoting his opinion and mixing with salaf sources to make it appealing.
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S_87
01-11-2009, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
if there no difference between Islam and Al'-saud concoction, tell me under what shariat ruling is an Egyptian Doctor being flogged for failing to help the fancy piece (who learnt her addiction in USA) of one of the princes?

would you like me to list 100s of such evils being done in that country? I bet you that you can find justification from Munajjid for each and every crime being committed by that regime and its masters, against Islam and Muslims
since when was sheikh munajjid a member of the government making government rulings? provide your proof against HIM or you are slandering him
Reply

S_87
01-11-2009, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Sister when he gave his answer he mixed his opinion from the reputed scholars of the salaf, that is very wrong imo.

Islamonline has mainly salafi scholars as Islam online is from Qatar. If you been to Qatar, you know most people and almost all scholars in Qatar are salafi. I'm myself is salafi, but that is besides the point. Who ever is running Islamqa is a different breed, calling himself sheik doesn't make one sheik. I've meet scholars from Medina University, and you can notice the difference when you compare his answers with a learned scholar... there is a huge difference. From the looks of it, he is promoting his opinion and mixing with salaf sources to make it appealing.
so whos opinion did you think he'd mix his answer with? of course he will promote the opinion he believes is right..and looking at the link again..the majority of what is written is daleel and quotes..and another link
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/3285/women%20leaders
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Chuck
01-11-2009, 04:16 PM
This is in the fatwa you posted earlier:
Rationally speaking, women should not be given positions of public office, because what is required of the one who is chosen for such a position is that he should a man of great resolve, determination, smartness, will power and good management skills. These characteristics are lacking in women because they have been created with weakness in their intellect and thinking, and with strong emotions, so electing them to such positions is not in the interests of the Muslims and does not help them to achieve greatness.

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/20677/women%20rulers
Tell me which salaf and scholars of the salaf made that comment?
Reply

doorster
01-11-2009, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by amani
yes i did and i see the difference. the link i posted goes against htat first link u posted with regards to judges/political figures etc. infact the first link u posted mentions ibn hazam..who was directly quoted with something else on the link i posted.
Big time differences of opinion.
Allah knows best
Originally Posted by doorster
could one safely assume that, that site is dedicated to presenting and promoting the official **"Al-Saud family" version of everything (which includes treatment of women).

In my opinion people on that site will do anything to promote their own ideas and suppress any opinion that would contradict the official **"Al-Saud family version of Islam".

wa salaam
Originally Posted by amani
theres not 'al saud version' theres Quran and Sunnah, we take what is Quran and sunnah and there is no this and that version...yes there is difference of opinion...but that link gave daleel from the Quran/Sunnah and from the scholars of the salaf..so if you want to refute feel free...

and yes chuck the sheikh answering the questions IS a sheikh...and if he doesnt answer the question he quotes from other reputed scholars and im not sure what you mean by he doesnt sound scholarly in the first place....
Originally Posted by doorster
if there no difference between Islam and Al'-saud concoction, tell me under what shariat ruling is an Egyptian Doctor being flogged for failing to help the fancy piece (who learnt her addiction in USA) of one of the princes?

would you like me to list 100s of such evils being done in that country? I bet you that you can find justification from Munajjid for each and every crime being committed by that regime and its masters, against Islam and Muslims
Originally Posted by amani
since when was sheikh munajjid a member of the government making government rulings? provide your proof against HIM or you are slandering him
since you've changed the game, I am not playing.

ma'asalaama
Reply

Woodrow
01-11-2009, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by amani

and yes chuck the sheikh answering the questions IS a sheikh...and if he doesnt answer the question he quotes from other reputed scholars and im not sure what you mean by he doesnt sound scholarly in the first place....
I think some caution needs to be taken when referring to a person titled Sheik. A Sheik is not necessarily a scholar and technically by definition to the word, need not even be Muslim. A Sheik can be a religious leader, but that is only one use of the word.

I was often called Sheik in the Austin Mosques, but that was not because of my having any knowledge. It was simply a sign of respect in recognition for my age. Age does not always mean having knowledge. There are teenagers on this forum that have much more knowledge of Islam then I have.

You may want to be check a dictionary for what a Sheik is.
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S_87
01-11-2009, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
This is in the fatwa you posted earlier:

Tell me which salaf and scholars of the salaf made that comment?
you mean which salafi?
well that again is him quoting sheikh ibn baz rahimahullah....again not the words of muhammed saleh almunajjid the sheikh of the site...

fine doorster, whatever you say though i would like you to show any proof you have against HIM and his rulings not government laws.
Reply

Chuck
01-11-2009, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by amani
you mean which salafi?
well that again is him quoting sheikh ibn baz rahimahullah....again not the words of muhammed saleh almunajjid the sheikh of the site...
Are you sure?
Reply

doorster
01-11-2009, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Are you sure?
yup! ibn baz is quoted as saying it in an ultra ****** book called Jurisprudence and Islamic Rulings: General and Transactions Page 148
Reply

Chuck
01-11-2009, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by amani
fine doorster, whatever you say though i would like you to show any proof you have against HIM and his rulings
Thats for doorster, but I'll add one. Take for example:
Secondly:

The evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah indicates that it is not permissible for a woman to assume positions of senior public authority, such as the caliph (khaleefah), minister of state (wazeer or vizier) or judge (qaadi) and so on.

[bold part is about not having any public postion by women from Quran and Sunnah]

[now he is quoting Ibn Hazm but doesn't show his full opinion]

....
Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, in the context of his discussion on the role of caliph:

There is no dispute that it is not permissible for a woman (to be caliph).
Ibn Hazm in his Muhalla, allows women to hold public offices. For example, the following verse:
Behold, God bids you to deliver all that you have been entrusted with unto those who are entitled thereto, and whenever you judge between people, to judge with justice. Verily, most excellent is what God exhorts you to do: verily, God is all-hearing, all-seeing!” (4:58); Ibn Hazm said that since this verse addressed both men and women, there was no need to discriminate between the two.

Scholar isn't suppose to promote only his views when talking about Quran and sunnah, as they are supposed to give well informed opinion. This talent of cutting and showing partial info has job opportunities in MEMRI TV.

Here is more on this issue:
With respect to the specific area of leadership in the sense of holding public office, there is nothing in the Shariah (Islamic law) which says in unequivocal terms that women may not hold positions of leadership or public office. Indeed there is an indication that it is proper for women to hold public office in particular areas, for instance the education field so long this position and its nature do not prevent the Muslim woman from fulfilling her other more important obligations. However, there are three exceptions to this general permissibility of holding positions of public office about which Islamic scholars could not reach a consensus. These three positions are the Head of State, a Judge or the Commander of an army. Is there any basis for this reservation in the Quran or Sunnah?

Although there is no text from the Qur'an to endorse the exclusion of women from positions of leadership, there is a hadith of the Prophet stating: "People will not prosper if they choose as their Head of State a woman". He is said to have made this remark on hearing that the Persians had selected the daughter of their recently deceased Emperor to rule over them. Jurists have specified that the Prophet was particularly referring to the selection of a woman as a Head of State [Jamal Badawi argues that further research is needed on this subject because one scholar has cast doubt on the hadith itself and on the usual interpretations placed on it.]. However, it is to be noted that there has never been unanimity on this matter among scholars, past and present. Imam Abu Hanifa permits a woman to hold public office, even to be a judge in matters in which her testimony is admissible- that is all cases other than those involving fixed penalties (hudud) and retaliation (qisas). Ibn Hazm in his Muhalla, allows a woman to hold every office apart from that of the Head of State based on this hadith. Hafiz Ibn Hajr indicates in Fathul Bari that Imam Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari not only supports the unrestricted appointment of woman to judgeship, he permitted also her appointment as Head of State. A similar view is reported from Imam Malik Ibn Anas and adopted by some Maliki jurists, although the popular view in the madhab is contrary to this.

If the hadith is accepted as it is, there might be several possible reasons for this comment by the Prophet (SM). Firstly, it should be remembered that the Prophet was speaking from an Islamic point of view. In Islam, the Head of the Muslim community is not simply the spokesperson of people, with duties and responsibilities to them, he is also the person who leads the prayers and heads the army in the battlefield: he is not simply a figure-head. We elaborated in a previous lecture that the organization of Muslim prayers does not permit women being in front of men. Even in the most 'liberated' Western societies, one does not generally see women with so militaristic a mentality that they wish to command armies. In Islam, the position of leadership of the community is not a prize that people fight for; it is a burden and a responsibility which is bestowed on the most fitting person by the people.

In this regard, prominent Muslim scholar Shah Abdul Hannan said, “Quran does not prohibit woman leadership in a clear manner. There are evidences in the Quran in Ch. 4 v.59 and in Ch. 9 v.71 that women can be Ulil Amr and Wali of all, men and women, apart from the story of Queen Saba. The evidence against woman leadership in Sunnah is weak and unclear. Moreover, an Ahad Hadith ( in most cases reported by a single companion and which did not become well-known in the 2 or 3 generations), which is by definition Zanni (speculative), can not be the basis of prohibition or decision about important issues like Aqidah, hadd or human rights of any class of people, men or women. Such issues can not and should not be determined on the basis of Ahad, more so , when there is a question about its authenticity or clarity or context.”

Last but not least, with regard to barring women from serving as judges, again there is no unanimity amongst jurists on this question. There are those who say that by analogy with the foregoing, Muslim women should not serve as judges

a. because the role of the judge has similarities with the role of the ruler; and
b. since the head of the family is the husband, it cannot be that a woman should hold as high a position as that of judge.

A minority view, however, is that since the above saying of the Prophet (SAWS) specified that women should not serve as rulers in the Islamic state, it cannot he used to exclude women from any other position (At Tabari). Another view, as expounded by Abu Hanifa for example, is that since the Qur'an indicated that women may serve as witnesses in financial transactions, they may also judge on financial and other matters. In this regard, Dr Yusuf Al Qaradawi said, “Here, we should keep in mind that the permissibility of appointing woman as a judge does not necessitate it. Rather, the public interest of the Muslim society and the welfare the woman herself and the family should be the main criterion in deciding whether it is necessary to appoint a woman in such serious position or not.”

In this lecture, we present an overview of evidences from Quran and Sunnah along with different scholars’ opinions regarding political rights of muslim women. However, we believe more in-depth research is needed on this topic as this has become an important issue for present day Muslims.

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/VScho...ureGS111/6.doc
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ardianto
01-12-2009, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Somebody tell that to Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Turkey! :rolleyes:
Political system in Indonesia is a secular system.
Of course, in secular political system women are allowed to be leaders.
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S_87
01-13-2009, 12:21 PM
chuck i havent read the full quote of ibn hazam and as the scholars said

....
Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, in the context of his discussion on the role of caliph:
so he summarized what he read from ibn hazam..and again i think his opinion is well informed.
as for wher eyou quoted him secondly part.. again if you looked under what he said he quoted two scholars of tafsir to back up his opinion. ibn kathir and qurtubi rahimahumullah..he didnt make up conclusion at all like you are indicating
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AnonyMouse~
02-12-2009, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Somebody tell that to Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Turkey! :rolleyes:
LOL thats exactly what i was gonna say :P
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