Migration-in Islam...&...Phalestine.

[sur]

I wrote something few months back & ppl didn't quite agreed with me. I'm going to say that again coz i think that's the right way.


When Prophet Muhammad(saw) & his followers were "weak" they didn't confront their much powerful enemy.
They "migrated" 1st to Habsha then to Madina. It was NOT easy to leave their properties & homes behind. It would have been extremely extremely difficult. But still they chose to leave their everything behind & moved to safe location. & strenghtened themselves there.
They left the holiest place on planet earth, "Kabbah".


When muslim gained military power one-third of enemy then they faught & took their land back. (333 muslims -vs- 1000 qureish soldiers in battle of Badar) Allah helped them with angels Quran:3:124.

That's what phalistanian should try to do. who-ever has slightest ability to migrate should migrate to safe land & empower themselves & fight back for their land.

Quran:4:97-100:-
When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls*, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They(angels) say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! - Except those who are (really) weak and oppressed - men, women, and children - who have no means in their power, nor (a guide-post) to their way. For these, there is hope that Allah will forgive: For Allah doth blot out (sins) and forgive again and again.He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious: Should he die as a refugee **from home for Allah and His Messenger, His reward becomes due and sure with Allah: And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


*suicide bombers...!!!

**Promise of paradise from ALLAH. A gauranteed Jannah as well as freedom from evil of israel.... what else could one want.

[sur]

so i guess no one agrees with me again..... Our logic tells us it's next to impossible for them to migrate, but on the other hand it's assurity from The Creator of this earth that "He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious:"

Can anyone familiar with Gaza tell me what options Palestinians have for migration. What land or countries can they go to??? Is there any safer area within Gaza strip? or can they go to Egypt?

[The_Prince]

so i guess no one agrees with me again..... Our logic tells us it's next to impossible for them to migrate, but on the other hand it's assurity from The Creator of this earth that "He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious:"

Can anyone familiar with Gaza tell me what options Palestinians have for migration. What land or countries can they go to??? Is there any safer area within Gaza strip? or can they go to Egypt?

why dont u and the few others who share this view pay for the Palestinians to migrate? go on, give them the money to migrate, and give them the homes to migrate to.

and stop bringing up what the prophet did, as well as the Quranic verse, because you are TWISTING ITS REAL INTERPRETATION, the verse is referring to Muslims who are UNABLE TO PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION DUE TO OPPRESSION, so if Muslims are being oppressed so bad that they cant perform Islam anymore, then they should migrate, and that they have no excuses on judgement day to say well we were oppressed so we could not follow our deen! THATS WHAT THE QURAN IS SAYING, AND THATS WHY THE PROPHET MIGRATED.

the palestinians of Gaza and West Bank are being oppressed, however so they are still able to practice their deen, and indeed they are practicing one of the best deeds of Islam by making Jihad, so dont even dare try to use the Quran as a way to condemn them when you are twisting the Quran and giving your own spin interpretation.

[The_Prince]

Ibn Kathir: Thus, this honorable Ayah was revealed about those who reside among the idolators, while able to perform Hijrah and unable to practice the faith. Such people will be committing injustice against themselves and falling into a prohibition according to the consensus and also according to this Ayah

so stop twisting the meaning of the verse to give your own weak interpretation, the verses are refering to Muslims who are in the minority, and are oppressed so bad they cant follow their religion, this is not the case with Palestine, they are not in the minority, nor are they being stopped from following their deen.

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[Vito]

I don't know.. I don't think if they leave (do the Israelis even allow them to?) that things would get better for Muslims. I mean, look how many Muslims we have world wide? That is definitely a big number and still nothing is happening. We have the potential, but to make all voices of the Muslims into one, it is going to take a lot. A good start would be for the leaders to stand up and do something.

[The_Prince]

Ibn Abbas: Then, Allah revealed the following about the 50 people who had left Islam and were all killed during the Battle of Badr, saying: (Lo! as for those whom the angels take (in death)) at the Battle of Badr (while they wrong themselves) by being idolaters, ((the angels) will ask) upon taking their souls: (In what were you engaged) what were you doing in Mecca? (They will say: We were oppressed) and humiliated (in the land) in Mecca at the hands of the unbelievers. ((The angels) will say: Was not Allah's earth) Medina (spacious) safe (that ye could have migrated therein? As for such) group of people, (their habitation) their dwelling (will be hell, an evil journey's end) they will come to;

again as you can see, the meaning and interpretation of this verse is NOTHING LIKE WHAT YOU SAY, so dont come make silly ideas for Palestinians based on your own ignorant interpretation of the Quran.

infact i will write an article on this issue on my site, just to refute this silly interpretation you have given.

[sur]

why dont u and the few others who share this view pay for the Palestinians to migrate? go on, give them the money to migrate, and give them the homes to migrate to.

those few include God Almighty i guess...

& who did Prophet ask for money , for his migration??? Ppl have money to donate to hammas & hizbullah etc but they need my money to follow ALLAH's command to migrate??? But yes, if any Palestinian willing to migrate would need my money i would donate InshALLAH.

and stop bringing up what the prophet did, as well as the Quranic verse,

So no Quran & Hadees then what u want me to base my opinion on...??? "Scholars"...!!! No thanks ..i'd rather prefer to follow Quran & Sunnah.

because you are TWISTING ITS REAL INTERPRETATION, the verse is referring to Muslims who are UNABLE TO PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION DUE TO OPPRESSION,

i didn't twist, if u had little more IQ u would understand that i also want ppl to practice their religion by not commiting suicide & by migrating.

so if Muslims are being oppressed so bad that they cant perform Islam anymore, then they should migrate, and that they have no excuses on judgement day to say well we were oppressed so we could not follow our deen! THATS WHAT THE QURAN IS SAYING, AND THATS WHY THE PROPHET MIGRATED.

IF I'M NOT FORGETTING PPL ALSO WANTED TO KILL PROPHET & muslims, WASN'T THAT A REASON FOR THEIR MIGRATION.....???//? SO WHEN ISRAEL WANT TO KILL ALL PALESTINIANS SHOULDN'T THEY FOLLOW WHAT PROPHET DID TO SAVE HIS & HIS FELLOWS LIVES..........??? while they were able to pray 5 times a day & were able to fast so practicing religion was less of a problem than safety of their lives

the palestinians of Gaza and West Bank are being oppressed, however so they are still able to practice their deen, and indeed they are practicing one of the best deeds of Islam by making Jihad, so dont even dare try to use the Quran as a way to condemn them when you are twisting the Quran and giving your own spin interpretation.

DON'T U DARE TELL ME AGAIN TO NOT USE QURAN.u seem to have more belief in Ibn Khateer etc than on God Almighty & HIS Prophet.

if u bother to read, i am strongest opponent of israeli kafirs. I'm spent much of my time defending Islam, Prophet & his character on christian & religious forums. I have been defending Quran's verses from some guys who have been twisting translations of Quranic verses.

[S1aveofA11ah]

I don't know.. I don't think if they leave (do the Israelis even allow them to?) that things would get better for Muslims. I mean, look how many Muslims we have world wide? That is definitely a big number and still nothing is happening. We have the potential, but to make all voices of the Muslims into one, it is going to take a lot. A good start would be for the leaders to stand up and do something.

The best start would be for EACH and EVERY individual Muslim to start to do something not just point fingers at people above themselves i.e. leaders or people below themselves...

[Vito]

The best start would be for EACH and EVERY individual Muslim to start to do something not just point fingers at people above themselves i.e. leaders or people below themselves...

Would you like to give me a jump start on what I can do then?

[S1aveofA11ah]

Would you like to give me a jump start on what I can do then?

Well - if you haven't done so already (and this advice applies to me as well as you/others) - is:

Turn to Allah. Be upon Tawheed and make certain you are not committing and Shirk or Kufr. Do not abandon the 5 daily prayers and the other pillars and the "6th pillar" - Jihad.

[sur]

Would you like to give me a jump start on what I can do then?

These hammas & hizbullah etc, build their offices among civilian population, so israelis use excuse to attck their offices & also kill civilians with them.

So for starters, these organizations should separate their offices from civillian population. & instead of firing useless rockets on israeli "civilians"*, should work to move Palestinians to safer places.

Prophet(saw) left Makkah & Kabbah, the holiest places on face of the earth, for a reason & then took them back later. That's the Islamic way of dealing with such situation


*Even during war klling of women, children, elderly, & non-fighter-enemy is prohibited THEN HOW CAN SUICIDE bombing be permited!!!:-

Bukhari:-52:257.:-
During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.

Malik mauta:-21:10.:-
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Abu Bakr as-Siddiq was sending armies to ash-Sham. He went for a walk with Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan who was the commander of one of the battalions. It is claimed that Yazid said to Abu Bakr, "Will you ride or shall I get down?" Abu Bakrsaid, "I will not ride and you will not get down. I intend these steps of mine to be in the way of Allah."
Then Abu Bakr advised Yazid, "You will find a people who claim to have totally given themselves to Allah. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves. You will find a people who have shaved the middle of their heads, strike what they have shaved with the sword.
"I advise you ten things| Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."

[Vito]

Well - if you haven't done so already (and this advice applies to me as well as you/others) - is:

Turn to Allah. Be upon Tawheed and make certain you are not committing and Shirk or Kufr. Do not abandon the 5 daily prayers and the other pillars and the "6th pillar" - Jihad.

Yes of course.

My post was in regards to the topic about moving to make a bigger army to fight back.

[rpwelton]

So no Quran & Hadees then what u want me to base my opinion on...??? "Scholars"...!!! No thanks ..i'd rather prefer to follow Quran & Sunnah.

Let's be careful here. The scholars are the ones that have the knowledge to correctly interpret the Qur'an and Hadeeth as they apply to today's situations. Unless you have the knowledge that they have, we cannot disregard a scholar unless it is apparent that they are deviating from ahlus-Sunnah.

We may be able to understand the Qur'an in general terms, but when it comes to things like whether or not jihad or hijra apply in a given situation, the scholars must be consulted because they know in what context a verse was revealed, who it was directed to, which hadeeth apply to it, etc. It's a very detailed science that we should not presume to be experts in until we study it ourselves.

[sur]

Let's be careful here. The scholars are the ones that have the knowledge to correctly interpret the Qur'an and Hadeeth as they apply to today's situations. Unless you have the knowledge that they have, we cannot disregard a scholar unless it is apparent that they are deviating from ahlus-Sunnah.

We may be able to understand the Qur'an in general terms, but when it comes to things like whether or not jihad or hijra apply in a given situation, the scholars must be consulted because they know in what context a verse was revealed, who it was directed to, which hadeeth apply to it, etc. It's a very detailed science that we should not presume to be experts in until we study it ourselves.

Quran has been made easy for anyone to understand, WHY is this being repeated so many times...??? is there a doubt in it???

[Quran:54:17] And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?[22] But We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?[32] And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?[40] And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?


WHY bani-israel were warned about believing in scholars so much so as if they were the "Lords" & not the GOD Almighty(GOD forbid):-
[Quran:9:31] They take their religious scholars and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

when Allah's Prophet is telling us NOT to kill civilians then we throw rocket blindly that hit non-fighting men, women, children & on other hand scholars justify such attacks. Now what rocket-science it takes to under stand that we "take their religious scholars and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God"

[rpwelton]

I agree with you for the most part, we cannot take the word of a scholar above the Word of God. I'm also of the belief that we shouldn't follow a particular madhab and stick only to that madhab, because doing so is akin to having blind faith. The issue is not following scholars at all, it's blindly following them.

For instance, if I say I'm a Hanafi, and that I will follow the fiqh of Hanafi in all issues without knowing the specific evidence in each case, that would be an example of me following blind guidance. In a sense, I'm putting Hanafi over the Qur'an and Sunnah, because he may have a ruling that disagrees with either of the two highest sources.

That is the trouble that Bani-Israel ran into; they trusted their scholars more than they trusted the Word of God, even when the scholars' views contradicted the Word of God. So we shouldn't say "oh I follow so and so", we should only say "I follow Allah SWT and His Messenger SAW".

What you're trying to do is interpret a verse revealed in a situation that happened in the 7th century and equate it with today's situation. We cannot all just go around interpreting things the way we like; there has to be a sound method for deriving meaning and applying its ruling. There are many variables in a delicate situation such as the Israeli/Palestine conflict and they all have to be taken into consideration.

You can't just throw out a verse of the Qur'an and say people need to migrate. Have you taken into consideration how things have changed in 1400 years regarding passing between countries (borders, visas, passports, getting work, etc)? It was a lot different back then than it is today, so you need to take each individual person's situation into consideration before making a judgment.

This is what a scholar does, he assesses something based not just on one verse, but on all the verses in the Qur'an that apply, as well as the applicable Hadeeth and their context. That's the value of a scholar versus a layman.

[sur]

I want to make an appeal to all from Egypt. as Galloway made here.

Please stand up against ur president Husne Mubarak & throw him away as he closed the borders for Palestinians while is happily hugging israeli leaders.
==============================================

& as i said rockets from hamas gives israel excuse to kill innocent Palestinians. Listen this victim...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIdxF-GHWw

=============================

What you're trying to do is interpret a verse revealed in a situation that happened in the 7th century and equate it with today's situation. We cannot all just go around interpreting things the way we like; there has to be a sound method for deriving meaning and applying its ruling. There are many variables in a delicate situation such as the Israeli/Palestine conflict and they all have to be taken into consideration.

I believe Quran's guidance applies till forever. It's not time bound. May be it was revealed on a particular occasion, but as history repeats itself, so that verse applies to ALL occasions similar to for what it was revealed.

You can't just throw out a verse of the Qur'an and say people need to migrate. Have you taken into consideration how things have changed in 1400 years regarding passing between countries (borders, visas, passports, getting work, etc)? It was a lot different back then than it is today,

didn't jews migrate from Germany in recent past???
were there no border rules back then???

Afghanis migrated into Pakistan in huge numbers & Pakistan welcomed them..... when USSR was expelled from there, they gradually started returning to their homeland. Their migration in a way helped fighters to fight USSR better.

Now it's Egypt's turn to welcome Palestinians into Egypt.




or at least there's gotta be relatively safer areas within Gaza strip.....!!!

[The_Prince]

those few include God Almighty i guess...

& who did Prophet ask for money , for his migration??? Ppl have money to donate to hammas & hizbullah etc but they need my money to follow ALLAH's command to migrate??? But yes, if any Palestinian willing to migrate would need my money i would donate InshALLAH.



So no Quran & Hadees then what u want me to base my opinion on...??? "Scholars"...!!! No thanks ..i'd rather prefer to follow Quran & Sunnah.


i didn't twist, if u had little more IQ u would understand that i also want ppl to practice their religion by not commiting suicide & by migrating.

IF I'M NOT FORGETTING PPL ALSO WANTED TO KILL PROPHET & muslims, WASN'T THAT A REASON FOR THEIR MIGRATION.....???//? SO WHEN ISRAEL WANT TO KILL ALL PALESTINIANS SHOULDN'T THEY FOLLOW WHAT PROPHET DID TO SAVE HIS & HIS FELLOWS LIVES..........??? while they were able to pray 5 times a day & were able to fast so practicing religion was less of a problem than safety of their lives


DON'T U DARE TELL ME AGAIN TO NOT USE QURAN.u seem to have more belief in Ibn Khateer etc than on God Almighty & HIS Prophet.

if u bother to read, i am strongest opponent of israeli kafirs. I'm spent much of my time defending Islam, Prophet & his character on christian & religious forums. I have been defending Quran's verses from some guys who have been twisting translations of Quranic verses.

its obvious you dont understand english, i said dont use the Quran and the Prophet when you are MISREPRESENTING WHAT THEY DID WITH YOUR FALSE JAHIL INTERPRETATION. Use the Quran, but use it with ITS PROPER USE, dont use the Quran while you misinterpret it and then say see this is the Quran!

So i repeat, you twisted the Quran and the Prophets actions, and the scholars of tafsir even refuted your silly interpretation.

[The_Prince]

Again Sur, your interpretation of those ayats are completely wrong, the ayats are refering to Muslims in the minority, who are being oppressed so bad to the point of not being able to practice their religion, that they even abandon the religion and pretend to take the religion of their oppressors. i event quoted the tafsirs of ibn kathir and ibn abbas to show this, hence just give up and admit your interpretion was wrong, and based on your own ignorance.

you have no evidence and no proof, just mis-interpretation and mis-representation of the Quran and Hadiths.

So dont tell the Palestinians to leave their lands based on your stupid interpretation. number 2 u lie very badly, when the prophet migrated to Medina HE ALREADY MADE THE ARRANGEMENTS, THERE WHERE PEOPLE WAITING TO ACCEPT HIM AND GIVE HIM SHELTER, so therefore i repeat what i said, if you Palestinians to leave their land, give them money, and give them the homes, but since ur so foolish u want the Palestinians to leave their homes with nothing waiting on the other side but dust and sand!

[The_Prince]

and wow sur, you say you dont want to follow the scholars? the Quran itself says follow the scholars, sheesh, you are a joke, not only do you misrepresent the Quran and hadiths, you know make your own aqidah which contradicts the Quran itself.

sur, sorry, no one wants to follow your silly interpretation, rather we follow the evidence from the Quran and Hadiths backed by the ijma of the scholars, all of which doesnt agree with you. at the end of the day your the one making this silly plan and your accepting people to agree with you, yet im afraid we dont agree with you because your wrong on all accounts.

[sur]

its obvious you dont understand english, i said dont use the Quran and the Prophet when you are MISREPRESENTING WHAT THEY DID WITH YOUR FALSE JAHIL INTERPRETATION. Use the Quran, but use it with ITS PROPER USE, dont use the Quran while you misinterpret it and then say see this is the Quran!

probably you are the one who need to improve your reading:
read again:-
IF I'M NOT FORGETTING PPL WANTED TO KILL PROPHET & muslims while they were too weak to take enemy head on, WASN'T THAT A REASON FOR THEIR MIGRATION.....???//? SO WHEN ISRAEL WANT TO KILL ALL PALESTINIANS SHOULDN'T THEY FOLLOW WHAT PROPHET DID TO SAVE HIS & HIS FELLOWS LIVES..........???

order of immigration in Quran is exactly for the situation that Palestinians are going through.

So i repeat, you twisted the Quran and the Prophets actions, and the scholars of tafsir even refuted your silly interpretation.

where scholars said that ppl should not migrate when their lives are under threat...???

& by the way you can put all your ignorance in one post instead of 3 separate posts. Just click "edit" & add.

[rpwelton]

didn't jews migrate from Germany in recent past???
were there no border rules back then???

Afghanis migrated into Pakistan in huge numbers & Pakistan welcomed them..... when USSR was expelled from there, they gradually started returning to their homeland. Their migration in a way helped fighters to fight USSR better.

Now it's Egypt's turn to welcome Palestinians into Egypt.

Each situation has its own particular circumstances. Of course it's ideal for someone to seek out a safer land free of oppression, but that's binding upon the leaders of other nations to let them in.

If Egypt will welcome Palestinians, sure, there's nothing wrong with that if they can make the journey. As I said before, I don't want to throw out generalizations upon an entire people because the circumstances for each individual are different.

[The_Prince]

sur, u shud go to a zionist forum, they will love u, heck, the Israeli goverment will even honour, heck even more, the Zionist fathers will love you as well, you are great for them, you want all Palestinians to leave their land, just like the zionists, wow they will sure loveeeeeee u.

[The_Prince]

probably you are the one who need to improve your reading:
read again:-
IF I'M NOT FORGETTING PPL WANTED TO KILL PROPHET & muslims, WASN'T THAT A REASON FOR THEIR MIGRATION.....???//? SO WHEN ISRAEL WANT TO KILL ALL PALESTINIANS SHOULDN'T THEY FOLLOW WHAT PROPHET DID TO SAVE HIS & HIS FELLOWS LIVES..........???

order of immigration in Quran is exactly for the situation that Palestinians are going throgh.

wrong wrong again, Muslims should migrate when the oppresion is so bad that they cant follow their religion anymore, thats when they should migrate, and also if their in the minority.

when Israel wants to kill all Palis, the Palis should fight back as their not in the minority, nor are they banned from their religion, hence they must do Jihad, one of the greatest Islamic duty.

[The_Prince]

probably you are the one who need to improve your reading:
read again:-
IF I'M NOT FORGETTING PPL WANTED TO KILL PROPHET & muslims while they were too weak to take enemy head on, WASN'T THAT A REASON FOR THEIR MIGRATION.....???//? SO WHEN ISRAEL WANT TO KILL ALL PALESTINIANS SHOULDN'T THEY FOLLOW WHAT PROPHET DID TO SAVE HIS & HIS FELLOWS LIVES..........???

order of immigration in Quran is exactly for the situation that Palestinians are going throgh.

where scholars said that ppl should not migrate when their lives are under threat...???

no, that wasnt the reason, the prophet was planning to migrate EVEN BEFORE THEY TRIED KILLED HIM, stop quoting out of context, the prophet didnt decide to migrate as a result of the assasination attempt, rather that was the sign for him to finally go. hence again your wrong, the prophet wanted to migrate BEFORE THEY TRIED TO KILL HIM, YET HE WAS WAITING FOR ALLAH'S PERMISSION.

[sur]

sur, u shud go to a zionist forum, they will love u, heck, the Israeli goverment will even honour, heck even more, the Zionist fathers will love you as well, you are great for them, you want all Palestinians to leave their land, just like the zionists, wow they will sure loveeeeeee u.

Like Quraish loved Prophet when he migrated from MAkkah....!!!! & left his land.

wrong wrong again, Muslims should migrate when the oppresion is so bad that they cant follow their religion anymore, thats when they should migrate, and also if their in the minority.

when Israel wants to kill all Palis, the Palis should fight back as their not in the minority, nor are they banned from their religion, hence they must do Jihad, one of the greatest Islamic duty.

lets wait, & leave till ALLAH decides. I just had to present Quran's verse. You dont wanna believe.. up to you. No point in lenghtening the thread.

[Muhammad]

:sl:

This thread is an example of why we need to refer to the knowledgeable i.e. the scholars for solutions. The task of making analogy between two things, as well as interpreting Islamic texts, requires the person to have a deep understanding of the Islamic sciences, hence it is not something for the layman. Let us remember this for future discussions Insha'Allaah.

Thread closed.