"Q" and the Quranic Jesus

[bartdanr]

Peace, Everyone,

I just read a short book called "Beyond Mere Christianity", written by a former Christian, regarding the "Q" source and the Islamic Jesus.

If you are not familiar with the "Q" source, it is the theory that Matthew & Luke compiled their gospels from Mark and another (undiscovered) source, called "Q" (for "Quelle", source, in German). This theory attempts to account for the remarkable verbal agreements between Matthew & Luke.

"Q" as reconstructed by scholars is largely (perhaps purely) a source of Jesus' sayings, not deeds. The author of "Beyond Mere Christianity" uses this to show an agreement with the earliest gospel message and the Quranic revelation regarding Jesus.

Is anyone else familiar with this theory or has a comment on it?

Bart

[جوري]

Interesting.. perhaps some of the converts on board can address this..

peace

[Trumble]

The 'Q' theory is a well established and widely accepted theory that tries to account for the similarities between Matthew and Luke, as you say.

Can you provide some more information about "Beyond Mere Christianity" and what it actually claims? We don't have a single page or even word of "Q", if it ever existed. It seems very academically 'courageous' to claim anything about its contents except, perhaps, those already assumed to be replicated in Matthew and Luke... and we can't even be certain of that.

[doorster]

Can you provide some more information about "Beyond Mere Christianity" and what it actually claims?

Author: Brandon Toropov

Beyond Mere Christianity

** |
I know I have many Christian readers, and normally I am someone who avoids the whole apologetic thing, because authors like Deedat make me cringe. They don’t have any real conception about what Christianity is, and how Christians are.

But dear Christian readers, just bear with me for this post. I am a Muslim, and it is true that Muslims believe many things that Christians believe, but it is also true that we believe things that Christians do not believe. I would be silly to try and pretend this is not so.

So, if you can keep an open mind, with the possibility that you may just find out something about the Messiah that has been kept from you… something that Jesus, peace be upon him, would want you to know!
If you knew of a book that introduced you to:

• what Jesus taught
• why Jesus was and is Muslim
• why you should follow the teachings of Jesus and become Muslim too!

Brandon Yusuf Toropov is a convert and has written simply the best booklet I have ever read.

He points out how the oldest Gospel material (named Q by non-Muslim Biblical scholars) actually confirms what Islam teaches about Jesus: that Jesus taught we should only worship the one God; that Jesus rejected any attempt to consider him divine; that Jesus taught the path to salvation is not the substitutionary atonement, but rather to do the will of God.
I have bought six copies so I can give them to people. You can actually download the eBook for free >> here.

If it’s all wrong, it doesn’t matter. But, if it’s true, shouldn’t you take a moment to consider?

** ummyasmin, aspiring academic and occasional writer for the Faith column of the Sunday Age. UmmYasmin was born and raised Baha'i, but in a daring decision to convert to a socially-devalued religion, became a Muslim a few years ago.

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[Zamtsa]

That's right, the concept of "Beyond Mere Christianity," was based on facts that the 4 Gospels were written based on the writing by Josephus the Historian, that's why we could see that the writer of 4 Gospels wrote the Geography of Judea wrongly.
They only wrote it about 100 BC and people said they write it 30-50 BC.

M.Hashem told this based on Acharya S.writings in Christ Conspiracy, Powell Davies in The First Christian, T.W.Doane in The Bible Myths and Their Parallels In Other Religion etc.

and the writer of NT also made numerous mistakes on their writings, and this toughening what Allah has stated "


QS.Al Baqarah (2):78 Wa minhum ummiyyu_na la_ ya'lamu_nal kita_ba illa_ ama_niyya wa in hum illa_ yazunnu_n(a).


78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires and they do nothing but conjecture.


The NT writers made mistakes in writing the NT(the mispeling,write the Geography of Judea wrongly etc). I think that's very clear.



Assalamu manit taba'al huda(May peace be upon who follow the guidance.

[doorster]

QS.Al Baqarah (2):78 Wa minhum ummiyyu_na la_ ya'lamu_nal kita_ba illa_ ama_niyya wa in hum illa_ yazunnu_n(a).


78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires and they do nothing but conjecture.

are you sure that you are not misquoting this ayat? if you think that you are not, can you explain why, how?

[جوري]

Interesting still.. I might just invest in this book.. insha'Allah and speaking of which, if anyone can direct me to where I can purchase Mustafa Al-Azami's books from the U.S I'd appreciate it.. seems the three I am looking for are either out of stock or must be purchased from over seas

Jazakoum Allah khyran

:w:

[doorster]

Interesting still.. I might just invest in this book.. insha'Allah ......

Jazakoum Allah khyran

:w:

<< click to get it free, gratis :) or here. for download page:w:

[doorster]

and speaking of which, if anyone can direct me to where I can purchase Mustafa Al-Azami's books from the U.S I'd appreciate it.. seems the three I am looking for are either out of stock or must be purchased from over seas

have you tried http://albalagh.net/bookstore/ and or Amazon.com

[جوري]

have you tried http://albalagh.net/bookstore/

note the address quick in case it vanishes

:sl:

yeah Jazaka Allah khyran.. I think it is no longer being made?

The History of the Qur'anic Text: From Revelation to Compilation
The History of the Qur'anic Text: From Revelation to Compilation
(Dr. M. M. Al-Azami-English - Paperback - 376 pages)
Out of Stock
A detailed history of the Qur'an from revelation to compilation as well as a comparative study with the Old and New Testaments. This monumental effort, a scholarly work composed in an impassioned tone,... More Detail...
Price: $35.00
Stock Number: 0762 Out of Stock

all his books always seem to be out of stock.. including a rebuttal he wrote to one of those christian apologists -- of course you find the defamatory book but not the rebuttal to it.. it saddens me.. imsad

:w:

[جوري]

<< click to get it free, gratis :) or here. for download page:w:

Jazaka Allah khyran for this one.. that is excellent.. how do you put click me links like that?

:w:

[doorster]

Jazaka Allah khyran for this one.. that is excellent.. how do you put click me links like that?

:w:

firstly you either need to go to http://www.islamicboard.com/profile/edit-options/

scroll down to Miscellaneous Options >> Message Editor Interface >> select the last one from three interface types available to you. The simplest of these is a simple text box, while the last is a fully-fledged WYSIWYG editor, which allows you to format your text as you want it and see the results immediately.

then save changes

and you are ready to copy and paste including pictures and original formatting

or you click this >> BB code to learn how to do it manually

[Zamtsa]

That's right, the concept of "Beyond Mere Christianity," was based on facts that the 4 Gospels were written based on the writing by Josephus the Historian, that's why we could see that the writer of 4 Gospels wrote the Geography of Judea wrongly.
They only wrote it about 100 BC and people said they write it 30-50 BC.

M.Hashem told this based on Acharya S.writings in Christ Conspiracy, Powell Davies in The First Christian, T.W.Doane in The Bible Myths and Their Parallels In Other Religion etc.

and the writer of NT also made numerous mistakes on their writings, and this toughening what Allah has stated "


QS.Al Baqarah (2):78 Wa minhum ummiyyu_na la_ ya'lamu_nal kita_ba illa_ ama_niyya wa in hum illa_ yazunnu_n(a).


78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires and they do nothing but conjecture.



Assalamu manit taba'al huda(May peace be upon who follow the guidance.

The NT writers made mistakes in writing the NT(the mispeling,write the Geography of Judea wrongly etc). I think that's very clear.

[جوري]

firstly you need to go to http://www.islamicboard.com/profile/edit-options/

scroll down to Miscellaneous Options >> Message Editor Interface >> select the last one from three interface types available to you. The simplest of these is a simple text box, while the last is a fully-fledged WYSIWYG editor, which allows you to format your text as you want it and see the results immediately.

then save changes

and you are ready to copy and paste including pictures and original formatting or you click this >> BB code to learn how to do it manually

:sl:
Jazaka Allah khyran.. sounds complicated, but will give it a try..

:w:

[doorster]

The NT writers made mistakes in writing the NT(the mispeling,write the Geography of Judea wrongly etc). I think that's very clear.

yes but my question was:

QS.Al Baqarah (2):78 Wa minhum ummiyyu_na la_ ya'lamu_nal kita_ba illa_ ama_niyya wa in hum illa_ yazunnu_n(a).

78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires and they do nothing but conjecture.

are you sure that you are not misquoting this ayat? if you think that you are not, can you explain why, how?:sl:

[جوري]

testing Buy me

_________
hmmm didn't work like I expected

[Zamtsa]

I'm not misquoting the ayat. It is Al Baqarah 78 and it was meant for the people who attribute their books as Taurat and Injil.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh

[doorster]

I'm not misquoting the ayat. It is Al Baqarah 78 and it was meant for the people who attribute their books as Taurat and Injil.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh

wa alaikm salaam wa rahamatullah wa barakat

point out mention of Injil please

• 70. they said, "Call upon Your Lord for us to make plain to us what it is. Verily to us All cows are alike, and surely, if Allâh wills, we will be guided."
• 71. He [Mûsa (Moses)] said, "He says, 'It is a cow neither trained to till the soil nor water the fields, sound, having no other colour except bright yellow.' " they said, "Now You have brought the truth." so they slaughtered it though they were near to not doing it.
• 72. and (remember) when You killed a man and fell into dispute among yourselves as to the crime. but Allâh brought forth that which You were hiding.
• 73. so we said: "Strike Him (the dead man) with a piece of it (the cow)." Thus Allâh brings the dead to life and shows You his Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) so that You may understand.
• 74. then, after that, Your hearts were hardened and became as stones or even worse In hardness. and indeed, there are stones out of which rivers gush forth, and indeed, there are of them (stones) which split asunder so that water flows from them, and indeed, there are of them (stones) which fall down for fear of Allâh. and Allâh is not unaware of what You do.
• 75. do You (faithful believers) covet that they will believe In Your Religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the word of Allâh [the Taurât (Torah)], Then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?
• 76. and when they (Jews) meet those who believe (Muslims), they say, "We believe", but when they meet one another In private, they say, "Shall You (Jews) tell them (Muslims) what Allâh has revealed to You [Jews, about the description and the qualities of Prophet Muhammad Sal-Allaahu 'alayhe Wa Sallam , that which are written In the Taurât (Torah)] , that they (Muslims) may argue with You (Jews) about it before Your Lord?" have You (Jews) Then no understanding?
• 77. know they (Jews) not that Allâh knows what they conceal and what they reveal?
• 78. and there are among them (Jews) unlettered people, who know not the Book, but they trust upon false desires and they but guess.

[UmmSqueakster]

I haven't read that book, but the theory of the Quelle document is well known within the biblical textual criticism field.

One of my favorite authors to read on this subject is Bart Ehrman. Everything I've picked up by him has been fabulous. I actually just found a textbook on the New Testament by him at a used bookstore. Previous editions are probably cheaper online.

[doorster]

edit

[mkh4JC]

Peace, Everyone,

I just read a short book called "Beyond Mere Christianity", written by a former Christian, regarding the "Q" source and the Islamic Jesus.

If you are not familiar with the "Q" source, it is the theory that Matthew & Luke compiled their gospels from Mark and another (undiscovered) source, called "Q" (for "Quelle", source, in German). This theory attempts to account for the remarkable verbal agreements between Matthew & Luke.

"Q" as reconstructed by scholars is largely (perhaps purely) a source of Jesus' sayings, not deeds. The author of "Beyond Mere Christianity" uses this to show an agreement with the earliest gospel message and the Quranic revelation regarding Jesus.

Is anyone else familiar with this theory or has a comment on it?

Bart

I wasn't familiar with it, but then again I'm a baby in Christ, and not well developed, for varying reasons. But here's a quote from a gentlemen on Christian-Thinktank:

For some reason, these arguments don't ever seem to be satisfied. If we have N witnesses to a event, they want "N+1"...And if EVERY SINGLE WRITER talks about the event in EXACT detail, they are accused of "collusion" and "conspiracy". And if EVERY SINGLE WRITER talks about the event, but uses different vocab, style, levels of precison, of selection of details, THEN the antagonists complain about 'contradictions' and 'disagreements'! What's a mother to do?!!!!

(I am always amused at these 'argument from silence' literary positions and the ability to spoof it are difficult to resist: "Since Jesus never spoke his own name in the Gospels, he must not have known it!").

But more seriously, there is no reason at all why ANY event has to be in EVERY gospel...even if it WAS important to the church. These authors knew about the others' works; the "synoptic problem" is ample witness to this!

[جوري]

The arguments are not satisfied simply because you are not giving any sound answers-- from the lowest denominator illogical, and are not in concert with the notion of an omniscient originator!
Basing faith on the dreams and visions of charlatan who were known nemesis to Christ doesn't cut it with reasoning people to be a viable rationale to subscribe to a religion.. Christianity can't pull its weight least of which when measured against itself.. glad the above quoted apologists had enough good sense to at least mention that in his closing statement..


cheers

[mkh4JC]

The arguments are not satisfied simply because you are not giving any sound answers-- from the lowest denominator illogical, and are not in concert with the notion of an omniscient originator!
Basing faith on the dreams and visions of charlatan who were known nemesis to Christ doesn't cut it with reasoning people to be a viable rationale to subscribe to a religion.. Christianity can't pull its weight least of which when measured against itself.. glad the above quoted apologists had enough good sense to at least mention that in his closing statement..


cheers

Here I gather you must be referring to Paul's conversion. You have to understand, that Paul did all that he did in ignorance. It was common in the Old Testament days to put to death those who ventured from the faith, and worshipped "strange Gods" and that is what he and certain Jews perceived Chrisitianity to be.

But God had mercy on Paul, and revealed himself to him. Here's a good scripture, it's source a quote from the Old Testament:

'For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.' Romans 9: 15. Paul even laments somewhere in the New Testament how that he is not as worthy as the other Apostles because he persecuted the church. I know it's written somewhere, I just can't find it right now.

And I don't think we (as Christians) have to base our faith just around Paul's writings. We have (in terms of major New Testament authors) the works of Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and the author of Hebrews, to go along with Paul's writings.

[جوري]

It is inconsequential really what you believe, considering none of the folks you mention were actually acquaintances of Jesus -- Paul did what he did out of calculation the man managed to do away with most of the commandments and the covenant between God and Abraham -- Let's put it this way, go be happy praying to Jesus or eating or drinking his blood in church while clapping and cheering and leave us in peace-- not every thread is in need of your irrelevant input!

cheers

[Zamtsa]

wa alaikm salaam wa rahamatullah wa barakat

point out mention of Injil please

• 70. they said, "Call upon Your Lord for us to make plain to us what it is. Verily to us All cows are alike, and surely, if Allâh wills, we will be guided."
• 71. He [Mûsa (Moses)] said, "He says, 'It is a cow neither trained to till the soil nor water the fields, sound, having no other colour except bright yellow.' " they said, "Now You have brought the truth." so they slaughtered it though they were near to not doing it.
• 72. and (remember) when You killed a man and fell into dispute among yourselves as to the crime. but Allâh brought forth that which You were hiding.
• 73. so we said: "Strike Him (the dead man) with a piece of it (the cow)." Thus Allâh brings the dead to life and shows You his Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) so that You may understand.
• 74. then, after that, Your hearts were hardened and became as stones or even worse In hardness. and indeed, there are stones out of which rivers gush forth, and indeed, there are of them (stones) which split asunder so that water flows from them, and indeed, there are of them (stones) which fall down for fear of Allâh. and Allâh is not unaware of what You do.
• 75. do You (faithful believers) covet that they will believe In Your Religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the word of Allâh [the Taurât (Torah)], Then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?
• 76. and when they (Jews) meet those who believe (Muslims), they say, "We believe", but when they meet one another In private, they say, "Shall You (Jews) tell them (Muslims) what Allâh has revealed to You [Jews, about the description and the qualities of Prophet Muhammad Sal-Allaahu 'alayhe Wa Sallam , that which are written In the Taurât (Torah)] , that they (Muslims) may argue with You (Jews) about it before Your Lord?" have You (Jews) Then no understanding?
• 77. know they (Jews) not that Allâh knows what they conceal and what they reveal?
• 78. and there are AMONG them (Jews) unlettered people, who know not the Book, but they trust upon false desires and they but guess.

Now, when you see that being capitalised by me, will you include PAUL or not? Because he was a Jew, Hellenis and a Christian, or more precise to say that he was a Zindiqah(Hypocrite), these were the people who claimed themselves as BIBLE WRITERS, and they said that these books were from Allahu Ta'ala (Taurat and Injil).

Eventhough they weren't from Jew ethnicity, but they believed on the OT as ones of their religion scriptures, and that's also why there is so called "Judeo-Christian."

These people were Kafir and did not care about the facts that they were trading mercy with torture and guidance with falsehood.

This one is the verse for Paul and people like him:


QS.Al Baqarah(2):118 Say those without knowledge: "Why speaketh not Allah unto Us? Or why cometh not unto Us a sign?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the signs unto any people who hold firmly to faith (in their hearts).


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

[doorster]

okay! Lets agree to disagree, you stick to your version and I shall stay with mine

Ma'asalaama