Are Muslims today backward?

[Nerd]

Was the former president of Pakistan General Pervez Musharaff, right when he said: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"


Out of the said 1000,000,000+ population, Muslims have only been able to produce nine Nobel laureates. (Eight, considering the beards declared Dr. Abdus Salam an apostate)

Leave out the silly Peace prizes and literature and you barely have 3 Muslims. Three?

Yes, you can literally count them on your fingers.

There's no running away from the fact that the so-called 'Muslim world' is inept, impoverished, and lagging behind on all fronts of human achievement.

They are easily the biggest waste of human capital. The biggest failure to apply any intellect. The most bitter enemies of reason.

In short, the "Muslim World" is the biggest failure in this century in achieving ANYTHING credible. Common sense indicates it. Statistics prove it. There's no room for doubt here.

This humiliating failure is precisely what the Islamists try so hard to hide with their meaningless rants and quest for a 'jihad' against an imaginary global conspiracy involving every 'infidel' on Earth.

They dream of a day when the world is "ruled" by an imaginary pan-world Islamic 'caliphate' that will somehow be magically established by a fantastic 'Islamic revolution' which will dethrone the "west" once and for all. (Yes. Mildly entertaining stuff)

Today, the Islamist answer to any question is "Jews! Americans! Western Propaganda!" .

They are blind to reason, incapable of debate, unopen to discussion or any criticism. They prefer to simply 'silence' all dissent, because they know very well that they cannot answer some very serious questions. It's much easier to declare everyone who questions them as 'apostate'.

Their followers are brainwashed with the simple proclamation of Islam's "supremacy" over the 'West'.

They flood the internet with websites proclaiming this unsubstantiated claim. But the fact remains that every last pixel on their monitor is the result of a 'western' innovation.

The AK-47 that Osama proudly displays is a 'Western' invention. The chemical formula of RDX that they use in their bombs is the culmination of 'Western' research.

Today the Qur'an is printed in printing presses designed in the west, and can be found online using Search Engines algorithms written in the "the West".

The fabrics that Hamas terrorists wear on their forehead were formulated in "the west" and the shirts on their backs were made in textile factories, with machines invented in "the West".

The Satellite phones they use for communication is again a 'western' technology, implemented by satellites that 'the west' launched into space, in rockets designed and built by 'the west', using advanced Computers made by 'the west'.

The Arab world hailed the testing of the "Islamic Bomb" when Pakistan acquired Nuclear weapons, but even the most basic Nuclear Fission reaction and reactor had first been experimented in laboratories in 'the West'.

The world's best Universities, the Best Hospitals, the biggest companies, largest factories.. all are in 'the west'.

While the youth in the Muslim countries are unable to string alphabets together thanks to their antiquated 'madrassa education', 'the west' has advanced in leaps and bounds.

In a span of two hundred years, they have gone from inventing the Steam Engine to putting a "Western" man on the moon to building space stations. They've gone from establishing telegraph posts to inventing the Internet.

imsad WE have failed imsad

[Najm]

Peace...

Kuffar Prizes dont decide whos intelligent or not

You might not be aware, i'll have to break it to you: Muslims live in the west!!

I think you are talking only about a very minute amount of people :p

Peace...

[Nerd]

That is assuming that majority of Muslims Inhabit the western hemisphere of the globe, and so called "Muslim states" doesn't have any much Muslims living in them.

[AabiruSabeel]

:sl:

I think yes, we have failed, but not in the manner portrayed above, but in a different sphere altogether...

Allah (SubHanhu wa ta'ala) has created each and everything for the benefit of mankind. Whatever you see in this universe, whether it is above the earth, or under the crust, or even in the empty extra terrestial space, each and everything is created for the benefit of man. And man is given the title "Best of the creations"...

It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge. (Al-Baqarah:29)
It is Allah Who hath created the heavens and the earth and sendeth down rain from the skies, and with it bringeth out fruits wherewith to feed you; it is He Who hath made the ships subject to you, that they may sail through the sea by His command; and the rivers (also) hath He made subject to you.
And He hath made subject to you the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses; and the night and the day hath he (also) made subject to you. (Surah Ibrahim: 32,33)

As we all know, Allah has created man in the best possible shape. And the status of man is even raised above the angels when the angels were asked to prostrate in front of Adam (AS)...

We have indeed created man in the best of moulds, (Surah At-Tin: 4)

But, if we analyse our own self, we are not at all of any importance. We have been created from a filthy drop of water.

There surely came over man a period of time when he was a thing not worth mentioning. (Surah Insaan: 1)

Whatever we touch, it starts decaying, its price goes down. We wear new clothes, within a few days, our shirts start smelling. We buy a new car, now if we sell it, its price is reduced (it becomes second-hand). If we touch the food we eat, it decays within a day. We are not of any importance in our body form...

So why is Allah (SwT) giving us such a high status among all his creations? Aren't there stronger creations of Allah (Jinn) than humans? Aren't there more obedient creations of Allah (Angels) than humans? Yet man is the most supreme creation.

This is because, we are not human in our true standard.

Then we reduced him to the lowest of the low, (Surah At-Tin: 5)
These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! (Surah Al-A'raf: 179)

We are not men at all.

Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah (Al-AHzab: 23)
Men whom neither merchandise nor selling diverts from the remembrance of Allah and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of poor-rate; they fear a day in which the hearts and eyes shall turn about; (Surah Noor: 37)

Allah (SwT) has given us this position because of the qualities that we must possess. The Sahabah (Ridhwanullahi 'Alaihim anma'een) were the most perfect human beings (after the Messengers). They had the qualities in them with which a man becomes a perfect man. They were the most civilized people ever existed on the face of this earth.
So because of their qualities, when they became perfect human beings, Allah (SwT) directed all of His creations in their service. Since each and everything is created for us, each and everything began serving the Sahabah. The river obeyed the command of Umar (RA), the land obeyed the command, the wind carried his voice to Sariyah (RA), the lion obeyed the command of Safeenah (RA)... There are too many examples (only if we get the time to read our history).

So what were those qualities that made them perfect humans? It was the quality of their Iman, which was stronger than the mountains. They used to see the Jannah and Jahannum with their own eyes. And it was the quality of their obedience (of the commands of Allah and His Messenger). And it was the quality of their personal contact with Allah (SwT). And it was the quality of their morals, their characters. And it was the quality of their sincerity. And it was the quality of their everlasting urge to strive in the path of Allah, to uphold His Deen and to spread the message to the whole world...

This is what we have failed in. We have failed to develop these qualities in ourselves, due to which we have lost our position, we have lost our prestige and we have lost everything...

:w:

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[Nerd]

Peace...

Kuffar Prizes dont decide whos intelligent or not

I think that's a petty excuse to cover up the obvious failure in innovation and research.

I can look around and see NOTHING in the last 100 or so years that a Muslim can feel proud of having contributed to.

[Dawud_uk]

are the kuffar rude and ignorant of history and good manners? on the evidence given by nerds manner of putting up posts it would seem so!

is your argument that because muslims are today poor and oppressed (due to our own turning away from Allah in our opinion) that we are some how inferior in our culture and way of life?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

lol the article started with a quote from musharraf


thats when i knew it was going to be full of crap

[Nerd]

Why dwell in history when we can see it with our own eyes, hear from our own ears feel and process all this with our own brains the condition of Muslims in present day. What I have mentioned aren't made-up arguments but rather facts that we all by the Grace of Allah be a witness to.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Why dwell in history when we can see it with our own eyes, hear from our own ears feel and process all this with our own brains the condition of Muslims in present day. What I have mentioned aren't made-up arguments but rather facts that we all by the Grace of Allah be a witness to.

if you've spent even a day with a true muslim family/imaam or even group then what is in the present would have sufficed you but you choose to remain ignorant of it.

[Nerd]

thats when i knew it was going to be full of crap

"crap" my friend are facts that we need to deal with and try and improve

[IbnAbdulHakim]

"crap" my friend are facts that we need to deal with and try and improve

i accept that the muslims arent as good as the ones we read about in our books.

However, the values, morals and teachings outweigh every other one around us.

Even if you complain that we lack in education we still strive to sacrifice to bring peace and harmony whilst the rest pursue materialism for wordly gain.


That is something you cannot deny.

[AabiruSabeel]

Why dwell in history when we can see it with our own eyes, hear from our own ears feel and process all this with our own brains the condition of Muslims in present day. What I have mentioned aren't made-up arguments but rather facts that we all by the Grace of Allah be a witness to.

Do we think progress in materialism is the actual success? Weren't Thamood better in technology and architecture? Weren't 'Aad more powerful than any human? Was Qaroon not wealthier than any existing country? Was Fir'aun not a bigger oppressor than anyone else? There have existed before us all types of people whom we might think "better", but they all perished. So my dear brother, its not material gain that matters. We need to build the qualities due to which Allah (SwT) gave Sahabah the position that they had...

If we read our history, we will come to realize that when Muslims were following the Deen, they were in the forefront in each and every field. The treasures of Persia and Rome lay in their feet. Emperors and Generals would tremble speaking with the Sahabah. We made advancements in every field, be it medical, science, mathematics, engineering or astronomy...

But when Muslims failed to continue efforts for their Deen, they lost their qualities and they lost everything...

Anything is given a position or status because of its work, its function. And the position is retained only until the thing works properly and it also guarded. Ex. the tube lights and ceiling fans are positioned above our heads until they function properly and they are guarded. A Prime Minister or President has his position and status until he holds his office and he has body gaurds. But when the tube light or fan starts malfunctioning, it is removed and discarded. When a PM or President completes his tenure, his signature or speach does not have the same value as before. He is not guarded as he used to be.
Similarly, when Muslims were on their purpose, when they were spending efforts for the sake of Deen, they had their value and status. When we failed to continue the efforts, we lost everything...

:w:

[Nerd]

but you choose to remain ignorant of it.

Am I being ignorant when I say; that we lag far behind in science, far behind in technology compared to Non-Muslims states?

Take Israel for an example, its located in the middle of so many Islamic states, but yet its economy is stronger compared to any them, its military is stronger than any of them.

Why haven't any Islamic country say Jordan, Syria, Iran or Iraq that are so close to Israel done anything to help the poor Palestinian Muslims that are being slaughtered in hundreds and thousands by Israel?

Blame the Jews and Americans, its easier to blame them. Then to see our own self that is really to blame.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ because of corrupt leaders surrounding us at every side.

i agree with you about our decline in science.


We're even declining in islaam.

We decline in fighting for the sake of Allaah.



i know this, and i pray the climb begins soon...

[Nerd]

Ameen! :)

Allah does want us Muslims to study, to research and to excel in them. And this my friend can only help you be closer to Allah. It is not against Islam, but rather Islamic. How can a Islamic state survive without proper Food? proper medical facilities? or even a strong military? (see what happen today, our sisters and brothers are being killed and all we can do is sit home and watch it on the television and maybe burn a flag does that help? )

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ i agree fully.

jazakAllah khair for this

[Dawud_uk]

ok perhaps it is me but what exactly is your argument?

islamic states are backwards because they are not developed, but where is there a single islamic state? or the muslim states are not islamic, they have a large muslim population but that doesnt make them islamic.

you see your evidence is relating to secular muslim states and then seem to be saying islamic states are therefore bad but you are not comparing like for like.

[Nerd]

^ By saying there aren't any Islamic states on earth you assume to have solved every problem. Since there isn't an Islamic state, Muslims need not contribute to science, since there isn't a Islamic state, Muslims need not develop their own weapons to protect their families. Since there isn't a Islamic State, Muslim's need not work hard to develop and grow their economy.

As a Muslim its a duty to strive in the way of Allah, to educate him/herself to contribute to the development and well being and protection of Human kind,

[Dawud_uk]

^ By saying there aren't any Islamic states on earth you assume to have solved every problem. Since there isn't an Islamic state, Muslims need not contribute to science, since there isn't a Islamic state, Muslims need not develop their own weapons to protect their families. Since there isn't a Islamic State, Muslim's need not work hard to develop and grow their economy.

As a Muslim its a duty to strive in the way of Allah, to educate him/herself to contribute to the development and well being and protection of Human kind,

actually i didnt say that at all, that is your own assumption.

but i also realise that the muslims will remain humiliated until such time as they return to the deen.

when we return to the deen then we will be given success in this life again as we were in the past.

but if we worked as hard as we could on worldly success and did nothing to move towards improving ourselves in the deen then we would continue to be humiliated.

the reason for our problems are not educational, or developmental, or anything such, these are symptoms of a wider problem of being islamically backwards.

[doorster]

Are Muslims today backward?

short answer: yes, overall, we are
Long answer: I'll ask a member of staff to pre-approve the text before posting to prevent a nuclear fall-out from the crying spree that will start after that.

Was the former president of Pakistan General Pervez Musharaff, right when he said: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

Why else does anyone think that he was removed from power but to keep us in our place (i.e. jahiliat)

[Dawud_uk]

"When you start usurious trade, when you grab a hold of cows' tails and limit yourselves to farming and abandon Jihad, Allah will sent upon you humiliation, from which you will not be delivered until you return to your Faith."

(Authentic Hadith reported by Ahmad).

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
I've 10 GCSEs, 4 A levels, a freakin scholarship, fluent in english, trained in shotokan karate upto yellow belt, can do the robot, great at street fighter, excellent telephone manner, proficient in ms word. excel and powerpoint, above average IQ, above average level of humour, modest, honest, smartass, a reading age of 20, above average typing skills, excellent defender and goal keeper, moderate stamina, moderate accuracy, decent numeracy skills, good with technology, fast learner, strong interest in academia particularly psychology, single and not looking.


Other than that, just your typical cave dwelling muzzy. Now if you don't mind, I have a camel race to win.

Hi Ho silver!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ but then you gotta wonder if all that makes a difference

[nightingale]

:sl:
I've 10 GCSEs, 4 A levels, a freakin scholarship, fluent in english, trained in shotokan karate upto yellow belt, can do the robot, great at street fighter, excellent telephone manner, proficient in ms word. excel and powerpoint, above average IQ, above average level of humour, modest, honest, smartass, a reading age of 20, above average typing skills, excellent defender and goal keeper, moderate stamina, moderate accuracy, decent numeracy skills, good with technology, fast learner, strong interest in academia particularly psychology, single and not looking.


Other than that, just your typical cave dwelling muzzy. Now if you don't mind, I have a camel race to win.

Hi Ho silver!

:thumbs_up

[Najm]

:sl:
I've 10 GCSEs, 4 A levels, a freakin scholarship, fluent in english, trained in shotokan karate upto yellow belt, can do the robot, great at street fighter, excellent telephone manner, proficient in ms word. excel and powerpoint, above average IQ, above average level of humour, modest, honest, smartass, a reading age of 20, above average typing skills, excellent defender and goal keeper, moderate stamina, moderate accuracy, decent numeracy skills, good with technology, fast learner, strong interest in academia particularly psychology, single and not looking.


Other than that, just your typical cave dwelling muzzy. Now if you don't mind, I have a camel race to win.

Hi Ho silver!

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

MarshaAllah!!!! And yes thats all great. Simply being a true believer is such a pleasure on its own!! But you got all the other qualities too!!!

We need to find you a wife right away!!! :p

FiAmaaniAllah...

[rpwelton]

It is not the quality of the individual we should be concerned about, but the quality of the Ummah as a whole.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ thats what i meant when i asked if it made a difference :p

[aamirsaab]

^ but then you gotta wonder if all that makes a difference

To the world and global powers? No. To people around me? I'd like to think so. Really though, that paragraph is to show those who don't know muslims that you know we are human beings. We do have emotion, needs and wants just like everyone else. Our religion doesn't prevent us from being human and in fact, we can be awesome people as a result (read my post again :D)

Just because we are muslims and just because we chose to live in whatever places we live in, doesn't make us backwards or forwards. We're human beings at our core and we go with the flow like everyone else.

I never understood this attitude from certain non-muslims (usually non-religious folk, on the internet mainly) that because of our small and really unnoticable differences, we're seen as alien.

Meh I should write a blog and not plague this board with my inner most deep feelings and yadda yadda yadda.

Edit:

It is not the quality of the individual we should be concerned about, but the quality of the Ummah as a whole.

Excellent point. And yes there are holes in the Ummah - I agree with you completely as I've seen them with my own eyes, usually on a daily basis. But, we aren't backwards for following nor disobeying Islam. Rather, we're stagnating by not following Islam and that is the true problem.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ plague away bro lol


we're human beings, but not like the rest :p


we'll strive to achieve n learn as much as we think can benefit our akhirah (this involves medecine and the likes, because healing people is surely great in the sight of Allaah), but to strive too much for this world is surely foolish (haram businesses, over exerting ourselves for knowledge which wont benefit etc etc)

[doorster]

It is not the quality of the individual we should be concerned about, but the quality of the Ummah as a whole.

it is individuals, who, when added together make up an ummat.

how strong is a chain made of a few 2inch thick high quality steel links and some links made of 2mm soldiering iron?

is it as strong as steel or as week as soldiering wire?

[^[AnKaBooT]^]

Was the former president of Pakistan General Pervez Musharaff, right when he said: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"


Out of the said 1000,000,000+ population, Muslims have only been able to produce nine Nobel laureates. (Eight, considering the beards declared Dr. Abdus Salam an apostate)

Leave out the silly Peace prizes and literature and you barely have 3 Muslims. Three?

Yes, you can literally count them on your fingers.

There's no running away from the fact that the so-called 'Muslim world' is inept, impoverished, and lagging behind on all fronts of human achievement.

They are easily the biggest waste of human capital. The biggest failure to apply any intellect. The most bitter enemies of reason.

In short, the "Muslim World" is the biggest failure in this century in achieving ANYTHING credible. Common sense indicates it. Statistics prove it. There's no room for doubt here.

This humiliating failure is precisely what the Islamists try so hard to hide with their meaningless rants and quest for a 'jihad' against an imaginary global conspiracy involving every 'infidel' on Earth.

They dream of a day when the world is "ruled" by an imaginary pan-world Islamic 'caliphate' that will somehow be magically established by a fantastic 'Islamic revolution' which will dethrone the "west" once and for all. (Yes. Mildly entertaining stuff)

Today, the Islamist answer to any question is "Jews! Americans! Western Propaganda!" .

They are blind to reason, incapable of debate, unopen to discussion or any criticism. They prefer to simply 'silence' all dissent, because they know very well that they cannot answer some very serious questions. It's much easier to declare everyone who questions them as 'apostate'.

Their followers are brainwashed with the simple proclamation of Islam's "supremacy" over the 'West'.

They flood the internet with websites proclaiming this unsubstantiated claim. But the fact remains that every last pixel on their monitor is the result of a 'western' innovation.

The AK-47 that Osama proudly displays is a 'Western' invention. The chemical formula of RDX that they use in their bombs is the culmination of 'Western' research.

Today the Qur'an is printed in printing presses designed in the west, and can be found online using Search Engines algorithms written in the "the West".

The fabrics that Hamas terrorists wear on their forehead were formulated in "the west" and the shirts on their backs were made in textile factories, with machines invented in "the West".

The Satellite phones they use for communication is again a 'western' technology, implemented by satellites that 'the west' launched into space, in rockets designed and built by 'the west', using advanced Computers made by 'the west'.

The Arab world hailed the testing of the "Islamic Bomb" when Pakistan acquired Nuclear weapons, but even the most basic Nuclear Fission reaction and reactor had first been experimented in laboratories in 'the West'.

The world's best Universities, the Best Hospitals, the biggest companies, largest factories.. all are in 'the west'.

While the youth in the Muslim countries are unable to string alphabets together thanks to their antiquated 'madrassa education', 'the west' has advanced in leaps and bounds.

In a span of two hundred years, they have gone from inventing the Steam Engine to putting a "Western" man on the moon to building space stations. They've gone from establishing telegraph posts to inventing the Internet.

imsad WE have failed imsad

STOP STOP SSSSSTTTTTTTOPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAVENT U noticed it YET its all from the Quran.
The Non muslims actually learned from us and then we were pushed to the end of society while theygot all credit.Actually god describes the importance of Knowledge in the Quran with many words and many times.

[AabiruSabeel]

it is individuals, who, when added together make up an ummat.

how strong is a chain made of a few 2inch thick high quality steel links and some links made of 2mm soldiering iron?

is it as strong as steel or as week as soldiering wire?

Its as weak as soldering wire. The point is, when collective efforts are made for the Deen, Allah's help will be with the whole Ummah. When individual efforts are made for the Deen, Allah's help will always be with such individuals.

:w:

[rpwelton]

it is individuals, who, when added together make up an ummat.

how strong is a chain made of a few 2inch thick high quality steel links and some links made of 2mm soldiering iron?

is it as strong as steel or as week as soldiering wire?

My point is not that individuals don't matter, it's that we shouldn't be jumping for joy when we have a few standout Muslims winning a Nobel prize or running multi-billion dollar companies if the Ummah as a whole is struggling in the deen.

Individuals cannot act on their own to bring the Ummah up to the level Muslims have attained in the past; everyone must work together to make that happen.

[doorster]

My point is not that individuals don't matter, it's that we shouldn't be jumping for joy when we have a few standout Muslims winning a Nobel prize or running multi-billion dollar companies if the Ummah as a whole is struggling in the deen.

Individuals cannot act on their own to bring the Ummah up to the level Muslims have attained in the past; everyone must work together to make that happen.

My heart was jumping with joy, when during recent earthquakes in Kashmir, a Sufi Scholar/industrialist was able to spend millions to organize relief efforts then it was sinking with grief when the sectarian elements of the ummat were going around declaring it (eathquake) a punishment of Allah for not having a salafi khilafat, and were actively looting and sabotaging relief efforts (lest it stops the chaos which will bring about khilafat)

individuals are very important for leadership roles and to serve as role models (in absence of aql, naql is next best thing).

"Islam is a practical religion;
it does not float in the stratosphere of imaginary ideals but remains with the human being on the ground of realities and day-to-day concerns.
It does not regard people as angels but accepts them as mortals who eat food and walk in the marketplace."

[Nerd]

STOP STOP SSSSSTTTTTTTOPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAVENT U noticed it YET its all from the Quran.
The Non muslims actually learned from us and then we were pushed to the end of society while theygot all credit.Actually god describes the importance of Knowledge in the Quran with many words and many times.

Why do you blame the non-Muslim's for learning and advancing? That isn't the problem that we are facing, the fact of the matter is we Muslims as a whole has given up trying.

And yes the Quran does guide us Muslims towards seeking knowledge, BUT ARE WE?

[Najm]

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Today, Muslims are struggling behind the west. This is simply because of our ignorance of the Islamic principles. We all think about ourseleves and dont consider others. We are hurt when someone hits us, and we are ok when others are hit.

We must understand Islam is not only the most fastest growing progressive religion, but its the divine way of life, it all various forms of life. We all as individuals need to follow the Quran and Sunnah, and spread the Deen, until we become a collective entity.

Verily, this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore serve Me (and no other). [21:92]

FiAmaaniAllah...

[Nerd]

Its cause we have corrupted our Islamic teachings to befit our own desires.

[crayon]

We have forgotten our religion, neglected it. This has lead to the state muslims and the muslim world are in today.

Yes, I do agree with a lot of what has been said in that article. Of course, not all muslims are like this obviously, but so many are. The entire muslim world has gone down the drain, and it can be attributed to our selling out. Compared to the muslims of the past, at the prophet's (peace be upon him) time, and the time of umar bin abd al aziz, at the time of andalusia.... where are we? How do we compare to them? We're nothing.

I'm not saying this to offend anyone, I remind myself before I remind anyone else. Our current situation is our own fault, and making excuses for ourselves, or blaming it on other people, whether it be Jews or Americans or purple bananas, is ridiculous. Denial is the first part of the problem we need to fix.

We need to get our act together. Each person needs to do it individually, and then when we have improved ourselves, we can come together as one. But EVERYONE has to make an effort. And frankly, these days, it's the few righteous people that have to haul the rest of the ummah on their backs, and that's not fair.

So yeah. There is still good left in muslims, there is still courage and modesty and honesty and forgiveness and intelligence. We just need to get rid of everything that covers that up, all the sins, all the lies, all the laziness, so the good stuff can come out. And we need to channel muslims' energy into beneficial things, into things that please Allah, especially the youth..

“The Muslim Ummah is like one body. If the eye is in pain then the whole body is in pain and if the head is in pain then the whole body is in pain”

[AabiruSabeel]

Today, Muslims are struggling behind the west. This is simply because of our ignorance of the Islamic principles. We all think about ourseleves and dont consider others. We are hurt when someone hits us, and we are ok when others are hit.

We don't need to think that the progress of westeners is something bad for us. Its for our benefit only. They are indeed helping us, making our work easier. They are serving us by inventing wonderful things. We Muslims are utilizing their technologies. There is no pride in discovering new things.
A new discovery simply shows us that we were until now ignorant about it. It shows our lack of knowledge, so why do we take pride in it?

But Islam also wants us to do research and be at par with others...

:w:

[Silver]

I dunno about muslims in other countries but in Lebanon, christian used to be more educated than muslims and that is changing. Now the majority of bright students in universities and schools are muslims which is good...BUT, the majority of uneducated people in Lebanon are also muslims.
My mom teaches in a public school where all students are muslims and these students couldn't care less about their education (it's like that in all public schools here), they're also not polite and it's their parents' fault mostly...they don't even pick them up from school and they let them play in the streets till midnight...they are doing the exact opposite of what Islam tells them to do...As muslims, it is our duty to seek education...
And what bothers me the most, is that non-muslims blame this on Islam when it is muslims themselves who are giving Islam a bad name...

[Fishman]

:sl:
Yes. The Ummah is failing and Islam is dying! Even if the three (real, not conspiracy theory) forces pushing the Muslim world in an ever-deeper mess were removed, I doubt any real difference will be made. The world has gone kaput. :cry:
:w:

[Dawud_uk]

:sl:
Yes. The Ummah is failing and Islam is dying! Even if the three (real, not conspiracy theory) forces pushing the Muslim world in an ever-deeper mess were removed, I doubt any real difference will be made. The world has gone kaput. :cry:
:w:

akhi dont lose hope, do a brief study of history, in the 50's and 60's thinks looked far, far worse.

the ummah is actually beginning to wake up, we are waking up and beginning to practice and the youth of islam is stronger than its elders in many ways.

ok we've got a long way to go but at least i think we are going in the right direction

[Dawud_uk]

you know we have entirely accepted the western concept of progress, of measuring ourself but is this correct?

for example, if you look at the west they are all miserable, do i want the ummah to be like this? no i dont.

i live in the uk, and i think i would need to walk at least 50 miles for a good clean free water supply, is this the progress we want? where our land and water is poluted so it can no longer be used without the use of more chemicals?

[Nerd]

Dawud_uk,

Very interesting point that you have raised here, I suppose we Muslims have many lessons to learn from the progress of the western world. Its undeniable that they have been able to contribute to a lot of good, as well as bad to the human kind and nature.

[Dawud_uk]

Dawud_uk,

Very interesting point that you have raised here, I suppose we Muslims have many lessons to learn from the progress of the western world. Its undeniable that they have been able to contribute to a lot of good, as well as bad to the human kind and nature.

doesnt matter too much, when the oil runs out, which is likely to be in most our lifetimes then western model modern civilisation goes with it.

[Ansariyah]

No not at all...We might not be winning Awards/Noble prices world wide...But we are still the only ones WORLD WIDE who know about Istinja. beat that!

How come none of ur important people in high places don't?

Get wit the Program!

[Mikayeel]

If u want to be succesfull u have to be mean, u have to cheat! U have to lie! Not always ofcourse but u can see all these ''successful business'' trying to make as much profit, but the way they do it is really put under question. Child labour? etc....

I guess we muslims are to honest to get involved in all that, hence we live a modest/honest life :D

[Amadeus85]

If u want to be succesfull u have to be mean, u have to cheat! U have to lie!

I g

I was thought that you must WORK HARD.

[doorster]

I was taught that you must WORK HARD.

me too! but many people (of any or no religion) do cheat but it is NOT a prerequisite to be a liar or cheat in order to be successful

[Zahida]

:sl: Liars and cheats will meet their fate one day...............:bump1::w:

[AabiruSabeel]

If u want to be succesfull u have to be mean, u have to cheat! U have to lie! Not always ofcourse but u can see all these ''successful business'' trying to make as much profit, but the way they do it is really put under question. Child labour? etc....

It depends on how you define "Success". If you think having a large income, a manor, few servants, fame etc then these all will perish one day you will left helpless. None of these can come of any use.

The Day whereon neither wealth nor sons will avail, (26:88)

There are people in this world who have all these things, and better than these, but still their lives are full of miseries. They can't sleep peacefully. They are so fed up of their lives that they commit suicide...

"But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment." (20:124)

The actual success is peace of mind in this world, and pleasure of Allah in the Aakhirah. Success is attaining what we desire and retaining it with us, which cannot happen in this temporary life.

Whoever does good whether male or female and he is a believer, We will most certainly make him live a happy life, and We will most certainly give them their reward for the best of what they did. (16:97)

:w:

[doorster]

we should tell this to those starving millions around the globe, who have no idea about where their next morsel of food is coming from, its easy enough to stay "halal" & "Modest" in countries where it is the treasury, which foots the bill for that modesty (< pronounced scrounging by Congenitally lazy)

wa salaam

[AabiruSabeel]

If Allah were to enlarge the provision for His Servants, they would indeed transgress beyond all bounds through the earth; but he sends (it) down in due measure as He pleases. For He is with His Servants Well-acquainted, Watchful. (42:27)

If everyone pay their Zakat in full, there would be no starvation on earth. Allah (SwT) has ordained the exact amount for it.

The Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) and the Sahabah never new where their next morsel of food is coming from...

وَمَا الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا إِلَّا مَتَاعُ الْغُرُورِ

For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception. (3:185)

[doorster]

jazakAllah khair wa salam

وَمَا الْحَيَاةُ الدُّنْيَا إِلَّا مَتَاعُ الْغُرُورِ

http://islamawakened.com/Quran/3/185/

[Nerd]

doesnt matter too much, when the oil runs out, which is likely to be in most our lifetimes then western model modern civilisation goes with it.

The progress and advancement of Muslims have no bearing on whether or not the western civilization crumbles down or not. We should try and understand why the ISLAMIC CIVILIZATION CRUMBLED DOWN and NOW AT THE BOTTOM. And focus our energy on revitalizing it. We need to change our attitude of blaming others for our own mistakes.

[Yanal]

Depends on what pervez means? If he means it in a sarcastic way of showing how we don't know who's a great leader and who's an illeterature one(Zardari).

[Dawud_uk]

The progress and advancement of Muslims have no bearing on whether or not the western civilization crumbles down or not. We should try and understand why the ISLAMIC CIVILIZATION CRUMBLED DOWN and NOW AT THE BOTTOM. And focus our energy on revitalizing it. We need to change our attitude of blaming others for our own mistakes.

i have no doubt in my mind why it crumbled, we become corrupted in matters of the deen and dunya, we became contented with wealth and living for this world and we forgot jihad as one of the major ways of this ummah so Allah swt is punishing and testing the ummah to see who will return to the correct ways of this deen.

[Nerd]

The Islamic Civilization crumbled down because they paralyzed their own intellect, their faculty of thinking. Which is one of the most important gifts that Allah has bestowed upon the Human kind.

Our general mentality is something like this now "So what if we are the worse at everything? So what if we are engaged in mindless violence and ethnic conflict? So what if our children are illiterate and unable to earn themselves a livelihood? What if our women go through their entire lives in a dingy kitchen? There's always the AFTERLIFE!
THEN WE'LL SHOW 'EM WHO DA BOSS! while 'the west' burns in hell!'"

[doorster]

^^ it makes good cover to hide stupidity and laziness, we can wallow in the glory of Salahudin (who had druze fighting for him, and Jews were his friends too) and live off on sadaqah of "kafir" governments, and same time can claim to be zahids

[Dawud_uk]

The Islamic Civilization crumbled down because they paralyzed their own intellect, their faculty of thinking. Which is one of the most important gifts that Allah has bestowed upon the Human kind.

Our general mentality is something like this now "So what if we are the worse at everything? So what if we are engaged in mindless violence and ethnic conflict? So what if our children are illiterate and unable to earn themselves a livelihood? What if our women go through their entire lives in a dingy kitchen? There's always the AFTERLIFE!
THEN WE'LL SHOW 'EM WHO DA BOSS! while 'the west' burns in hell!'"

:sl:

perhaps we are agreeing to the symptoms but not the cause.

because to me the collapse of our societies and intellectual life came about as our civilisation fell into ruin, why did this happen?

it happened because we turned away from Allah, so Allah turned away from us. he allowed our enemies to destroy us, and consequently everything else with it because we abandoned jihad and were unable to defend ourselves, as one of the haddith says, we got wahan in our hearts.

the fundemental cause of all the problems you are pointing to is spiritual, its in the practice of the deen, which as it develops and takes us to a point where we again run whole nations will lead to an intellectual and societal revival also.

:sl:

[Dawud_uk]

perhaps one of the christians or jews on this board might be able to help find the correct reference, but this 'sunnah of Allah' to correct mankind doesnt just belong to this nation of the muslims but to the previous nations that followed the laws of Allah.

i remember beign told about a section of the bible where the jews are crying out for help, saying their enemies have come against them and why has Allah not answered their prayers in their time of need.

the answer comes back that he did answer their need, he sent their enemies against them.

in the struggle their is purification of the soul as well as purification of the society but today we think we can do things without struggle, without strife, that the way that Allah tested the people of the past and its solutions is different from today which is foolish.

as imam malik said, the last of the ummah will be corrected by what the first of the ummah was corrected by (to paraphrase as dont have the exact reference).

[Nerd]

It was the perversion of religious teaching rather than turning away from Allah that is to blame for the root cause of the symptoms.

For example:

The much 'dignified' women in Saudi Arabia have no rights, no representation, no freedoms. Not even the right to drive a car. (Now, I'm no fan of female drivers - but when did this restriction on motor vehicles creep into the Qur'an?)

[Dawud_uk]

It was the perversion of religious teaching rather than turning away from Allah that is to blame for the root cause of the symptoms.

For example:

The much 'dignified' women in Saudi Arabia have no rights, no representation, no freedoms. Not even the right to drive a car. (Now, I'm no fan of female drivers - but when did this restriction on motor vehicles creep into the Qur'an?)

i hardly think that qualifies as the worst perversion of the deen but it is one of the most silly.

i mean, the women of the times of Rasoolullah saws were allowed to ride horses and camals, which is more revealling being on top of a camal or inside a car?

it is also totally counter productive, as often the richer women hire drivers who are men and are then alone with them or the poorer women get taxis alone with men. where is the sense in it?

[Umar001]

It was the perversion of religious teaching rather than turning away from Allah that is to blame for the root cause of the symptoms.

For example:

The much 'dignified' women in Saudi Arabia have no rights, no representation, no freedoms. Not even the right to drive a car. (Now, I'm no fan of female drivers - but when did this restriction on motor vehicles creep into the Qur'an?)

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

I could not disagree more dear brother, may Allah reward you with good. I think it us turning away rather than someone changing the teachings.

Here in the Uk for example, you find that a lot of people who only bother to turn up for jumu'ah, you find people who own shops selling alchol and pork. You find people not caring about Qur'an, not learning how to read it, you find them making rumours and backbiting if a member of the family marries a persoon from outside their village, you find a lot not wearing hijab and men who walk and act arrogantly, you find people compromising their religion for money, not praying because their job says no. You find people prefering comfort than hard work.

And the list goes on, the above is not due to some scholar here telling them not to, most people, even diviated ones tell Muslims not to sell alchol etc, yet we still do it!

As for the example you have given, my dear brother, then surely you understand that rulings are derived in various ways and not only from the Qur'an.

Br.al-Habeshi

[Khalisah]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

I could not disagree more dear brother, may Allah reward you with good. I think it us turning away rather than someone changing the teachings.

Br.al-Habeshi

:sl:

I agree, but at the same it is not just that people are turning away from religion, but that they have come from a part of the world where a certain practice is frowned upon, in many countries it is a big issue marying outside their own village so for any-one to mary out of their country is seen as turing against your family, this is not because they think Islam is wrong to allow it, but due to the fact they are not accustomed to those types of things, and most people do not like change.
With regards to those who sell alcohol and other haram foods in their shops, I do agree with you as it is very clear that we should not be indulging in such activities. They see themselves as intergrating within their society by doing this. I am not saying that this is right- It is't.
And yes there is nothing in the Qur'an which says women should not drive, but perhaps part of the reason why it is not permitted is to protect women- and although I do not think I could cope with-out driving and having some sort of independence, it does make me sad that society (generally men) are unable to have self-control that women have to be restrcited so much. I am not a femenist, because many of the laws that are in place for women within Islam are there for a reason and whether they are easy or difficult to follow or understand, if Islam has legislated that law, then I believe Allah would not want us follow something unless there was ultimate benefit from it InshaAllah (Have I gone slightly off topic) I am sorry.
:w:

[Keltoi]

It might be helpful to look at history. The Europeans, meaning the French, Germans, British, etc, used to be nothing more than warlike kingdoms engaging in feudalism and endless warfare. This was during the so-called Dark Ages after the fall of the Roman Empire. Education was virtually non-existant. Technology was rudimentary. Disease and starvation were rampant. What changed?

The answer could be a long and interesting essay, but it is worth considering.

[Muezzin]

Was the former president of Pakistan General Pervez Musharaff, right when he said: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

Maybe he was using the Royal 'We'.

[doorster]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

I could not disagree more dear brother, may Allah reward you with good. I think it us turning away rather than someone changing the teachings.

Here in the Uk for example, you find that a lot of people who only bother to turn up for jumu'ah, you find people who own shops selling alchol and pork. You find people not caring about Qur'an, not learning how to read it, you find them making rumours and backbiting if a member of the family marries a persoon from outside their village, you find a lot not wearing hijab and men who walk and act arrogantly, you find people compromising their religion for money, not praying because their job says no. You find people prefering comfort than hard work.

And the list goes on, the above is not due to some scholar here telling them not to, most people, even diviated ones tell Muslims not to sell alchol etc, yet we still do it!

As for the example you have given, my dear brother, then surely you understand that rulings are derived in various ways and not only from the Qur'an.

Br.al-Habeshi

all the ills of Muslim world are caused by UK "Muslims" abandoning religion and selling alcohol. and all the problems will go away if

• 1)those who have Muslim names in UK, stop selling alcohol and pork
• 2) and Muslims of UK should let anyone off the street come and propose marriage to to their daughter

then Saudi Arabia will stop oppressing women
sections of Egyptian and Pakistan will move out of shanty towns built around refuse collections (living of discarded rubbish)
Pakistan will have schools and doctors for every village, salafis of Pakistan and Sudan etc. will stop murdering Sufis

hm.. them Britishers have a lot to answer for (at least Israel and America have not been blamed this time)

oh and I forgot I should stop using z and s sounds in Arabic words, must use dh & th instead then ummat will improve more too

:rollseyes

[Whatsthepoint]

Maybe he was using the Royal 'We'.

:D:bump1:

[doorster]

It might be helpful to look at history. The Europeans, meaning the French, Germans, British, etc, used to be nothing more than warlike kingdoms engaging in feudalism and endless warfare. This was during the so-called Dark Ages after the fall of the Roman Empire. Education was virtually non-existant. Technology was rudimentary. Disease and starvation were rampant. What changed?

The answer could be a long and interesting essay, but it is worth considering.

The Muslims, meaning the [fill-in any Muslim country's name], etc, are nothing more than warlike kingdoms engaging in feudalism and endless warfare. This is during the so-called modern era after the fall of the Mughal then Usmani Empire. Education iss virtually non-existent. Technology is rudimentary (or bought from west). Disease and starvation is rampant.

[YusufNoor]

It might be helpful to look at history. The Europeans, meaning the French, Germans, British, etc, used to be nothing more than warlike kingdoms engaging in feudalism and endless warfare. This was during the so-called Dark Ages after the fall of the Roman Empire. Education was virtually non-existant. Technology was rudimentary. Disease and starvation were rampant. What changed?

they went to learn from the Muslims in Spain...

The answer could be a long and interesting essay, but it is worth considering.

not really an essay question, could've been multiple choice...:)

:w:

[Umar001]

all the ills of Muslim world are caused by UK "Muslims" abandoning religion and selling alcohol. and all the problems will go away if

• 1)those who have Muslim names in UK, stop selling alcohol and pork
• 2) and Muslims of UK should let anyone off the street come and propose marriage to to their daughter

then Saudi Arabia will stop oppressing women
sections of Egyptian and Pakistan will move out of shanty towns built around refuse collections (living of discarded rubbish)
Pakistan will have schools and doctors for every village, salafis of Pakistan and Sudan etc. will stop murdering Sufis

hm.. them Britishers have a lot to answer for (at least Israel and America have not been blamed this time)

oh and I forgot I should stop using z and s sounds in Arabic words, must use dh & th instead then ummat will improve more too

:rollseyes

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

Dear brother I don't know if English is your first language, I said, Here in the Uk for example, this 'for example' indicates that this is merely an example, a piece of the bigger puzzle, a proposed sample of what is happening on a larger scale outside the Uk. So in reply to you reply, where you said:

all the ills of Muslim world are caused by UK

Of course not, the example was to highlight the fact that a lot of us have left practicing the religion properly. An example is a lot of the Muslims in the United Kingdom.

Next, as for your seperation of: abandoning religion and selling alcohol.Then you should know that selling alchol is comes under the former. This, i.e. selling alchol, was an example of how people have abandoned the religion.

Now you're next points, as the previous are mainly misunderstandings. Once you realise that my highlighting of various things, such as selling haram, are only examples, i.e. not a comphrensive list of all the ways one abandons practicing his religion, then you will realise that merely stopping selling alchol and pork is not the only thing. What good is there if one stops selling alchol and pork yet does not pray?

As for your statement: Those who have Muslim names in UK I don't see where you get this from, not those who have Muslims names, rather, those who claim Islam as their Faith should practice their religion.

Your next statement:

and Muslims of UK should let anyone off the street come and propose marriage to to their daughter

Is probably the most offensive, probably due to personal reasons. I am sure any capable human being can see a happy middle ground between racism and heedlessness. A Muslim shouldn't be racist and place race alone as the criterion for a spouse, nor should he/she marry anyone without inquiring about it.

As for your comment:

then Saudi Arabia will stop oppressing women
sections of Egyptian and Pakistan will move out of shanty towns built around refuse collections (living of discarded rubbish)

When Muslims practice their religion, including all I have mentioned and more, then surely oppression to women will stop and so would extreme poverty caused through greed.

oh and I forgot I should stop using z and s sounds in Arabic words, must use dh & th instead then ummat will improve more too

Well I am sure Allah revealed the Qur'an in the Arabic language for a reason, an I am sure the arabic language has been preserved for some reasons, if one can pronounce the arabic the same way as it was done by the Prophet and his companions then why not try to do so?

As for your comment I saw: (at least Israel and America have not been blamed this time) Then this is the most embarassing of all. So we should sit here protesting against countries, Bush done x, George done y? Nay! Why is it that the Prophet Muhammad, fought against armies that outnumbered his and won? Why is it that the Muslims could stand brave for justice against opression? Was it because the United States of America did not exist? Nay! Any individual who contemplates it in his heart and reads will see why. And as always Allah knows best.

By the way, how do you think I feel when I read your reply? Do you think it softens my heart and helps me to accept any mistakes or absurdities I may have written? Do you think it helps me in accepting any mistakes, dear brother, be easy on me, for I am a young person who is quick to dismiss. So if you wish for yourself what you wish for your brother be patient with me.

Your dear Muslim brother 'Eesa

[doorster]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

Dear brother I don't know if English is your first language, I said, Here in the Uk for example, this 'for example' indicates that this is merely an example, a piece of the bigger puzzle, a proposed sample of what is happening on a larger scale outside the Uk. So in reply to you reply, where you said:



Of course not, the example was to highlight the fact that a lot of us have left practicing the religion properly. An example is a lot of the Muslims in the United Kingdom.

Next, as for your seperation of: abandoning religion and selling alcohol.Then you should know that selling alchol is comes under the former. This, i.e. selling alchol, was an example of how people have abandoned the religion.

Now you're next points, as the previous are mainly misunderstandings. Once you realise that my highlighting of various things, such as selling haram, are only examples, i.e. not a comphrensive list of all the ways one abandons practicing his religion, then you will realise that merely stopping selling alchol and pork is not the only thing. What good is there if one stops selling alchol and pork yet does not pray?

As for your statement: Those who have Muslim names in UK I don't see where you get this from, not those who have Muslims names, rather, those who claim Islam as their Faith should practice their religion.

Your next statement:

and Muslims of UK should let anyone off the street come and propose marriage to to their daughter

Is probably the most offensive, probably due to personal reasons. I am sure any capable human being can see a happy middle ground between racism and heedlessness. A Muslim shouldn't be racist and place race alone as the criterion for a spouse, nor should he/she marry anyone without inquiring about it.

As for your comment:

then Saudi Arabia will stop oppressing women
sections of Egyptian and Pakistan will move out of shanty towns built around refuse collections (living of discarded rubbish)

When Muslims practice their religion, including all I have mentioned and more, then surely oppression to women will stop and so would extreme poverty caused through greed.

oh and I forgot I should stop using z and s sounds in Arabic words, must use dh & th instead then ummat will improve more too

Well I am sure Allah revealed the Qur'an in the Arabic language for a reason, an I am sure the arabic language has been preserved for some reasons, if one can pronounce the arabic the same way as it was done by the Prophet and his companions then why not try to do so?

As for your comment I saw: (at least Israel and America have not been blamed this time) Then this is the most embarassing of all. So we should sit here protesting against countries, Bush done x, George done y? Nay! Why is it that the Prophet Muhammad, fought against armies that outnumbered his and won? Why is it that the Muslims could stand brave for justice against opression? Was it because the United States of America did not exist? Nay! Any individual who contemplates it in his heart and reads will see why. And as always Allah knows best.

.

Your dear Muslim brother 'Eesa

wa alikum Salam wa rahmatullah wa barakat

No, English is not my first language (that is why I am almost always asking one of the staff to edit my posts before posting but now almost all seem upset and do not reply)

and jazak Allah khair for being so gracious

By the way, how do you think I feel when I read your reply? Do you think it softens my heart and helps me to accept any mistakes or absurdities I may have written? Do you think it helps me in accepting any mistakes, dear brother, be easy on me, for I am a young person who is quick to dismiss. So if you wish for yourself what you wish for your brother be patient with me

That makes me so ashamed and sorry for which I do not have word to appologise

later on I will repost an article (orig. found by Islamirama re: Islamic Love and arranged marriage vs. modern Lust-marriage (confused with love) to make-up with you

:w:

As for your comment I saw: (at least Israel and America have not been blamed this time) Then this is the most embarassing of all. So we should sit here protesting against countries, Bush done x, George done y? Nay! Why is it that the Prophet Muhammad, fought against armies that outnumbered his and won? Why is it that the Muslims could stand brave for justice against opression? Was it because the United States of America did not exist? Nay! Any individual who contemplates it in his heart and reads will see why. And as always Allah knows best.

no one here is going to like my answer to this.

again what has any one done? or achieved with following advice of awlakis of this world? how many decades and centuries have passed with Muslims under oppression? sucides have not achived liberation for Palestine nor Kashmir for past 6 decades are they likely to now? we need to grow some braincells and learn to play the game with strategy

[Keltoi]

not really an essay question, could've been multiple choice...:)

:w:

I'm afraid the reality is much more than that.

[themuffinman]

if you look at the past civilazations of the world they reached their peak after their infancy, it is because the teachings were new the people had motivation for a cause and worked twards it and the military was second to none. islam began the same way and reached its peak with the four rightly guided caliphs and sum others after, the muslim army was second to none they feared noone except allah and they would strike terror in the hearts of their enemies and love from the opressed. after it reached its peak the leaders became lax, they spent on lavish palaces and mosques and art instead of military. fear crept into the hearts and deviations of the religion of islam, we had muslims fighting muslims. gone were the days of umar when the public treasury was over flowing and not a single person was to collect the money. so yes we are backwards, but not by the standards of society today, we are backwards by not holding onto the quran and sunnah for every single aspect of our lives, we are backwards in the same sense the kuffar were still clinging to the ways of jaahilyah of pre-islamic arabia

[Amadeus85]

I think that the key for the progress of muslim world is education. We can see in many countries, like Malaysia, Egypt or Moroco thousands of young men and women who educated themselves. There are more and more of students in Maghreb and Iran. The most succesful muslim countries nowadays (except Malaysia and Turkey) are oil states from the Persian Gulf. The progress of Dubai or Saudi Arabia is impressive, but as we see now the sudden oil prices fall can change their situation. Yes, the situation of muslim world isnt impressive, as nowadays not only Western World but also countries like Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China are more advanced.

[Fishman]

Yes, the situation of muslim world isnt impressive, as nowadays not only Western World but also countries like Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China are more advanced.

:sl:
The far east has probably always been more advanced. Even the Romans regarded China as their equal, basically a mirror image of the Roman Empire in the east.
:w:

[Keltoi]

:sl:
The far east has probably always been more advanced. Even the Romans regarded China as their equal, basically a mirror image of the Roman Empire in the east.
:w:

Long before that the Persian Empire was considered the greatest in the world. A competitor to the Greeks.

There is a cycle of great expansion and the death of empires. We are in a slightly different environment in the 21st century though. The global economy is structured in such a way that 3rd world countries have a great handicap in making any great strides towards national glory. A world financial collapse could trigger a major change, but that doesn't necessarily mean greatness for anyone.

[Amadeus85]

:sl:
The far east has probably always been more advanced. Even the Romans regarded China as their equal, basically a mirror image of the Roman Empire in the east.
:w:

Here we can ask what does it mean - "advanced" or "succesful" country. In my opinion in such country all homes have electricity and warm water. The medical care is on high level. The education is effective. The unemployment is low, which makes easy for young people to begin work. The police is uncorrupted and there is safety on the streets. The state gives enough social help to help those who really need it.
For example UK :D

[Fishman]

Long before that the Persian Empire was considered the greatest in the world. A competitor to the Greeks.

:sl:
China has still been pretty powerful though, even before then. As for the Greeks, they didn't build an empire themselves (until Alexander), just had a very advanced culture.

There is a cycle of great expansion and the death of empires. We are in a slightly different environment in the 21st century though. The global economy is structured in such a way that 3rd world countries have a great handicap in making any great strides towards national glory. A world financial collapse could trigger a major change, but that doesn't necessarily mean greatness for anyone.

Where would you say that cycle is now? Does it still happen?
:w:

[Argamemnon]

Was the former president of Pakistan General Pervez Musharaff, right when he said: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

:sl:

He is absolutely right, no doubt. All those people who are denying this fall into the category of "backward Muslims". They are totally blinded, and can't see the truth.

:w:

[Argamemnon]

i accept that the muslims arent as good as the ones we read about in our books.

However, the values, morals and teachings outweigh every other one around us.

Yes, cutting women's ears, noses and lips in countries like Pakistan shows that our "values" are indeed superior to every other one around us!

Please... why not open our eyes and see the truth. Muslims and Islam are totally different things. Islam is perfect, while Muslims are very very far from being perfect.

[Keltoi]

:sl:
China has still been pretty powerful though, even before then. As for the Greeks, they didn't build an empire themselves (until Alexander), just had a very advanced culture.

True, the Greeks were not military imperialists until Alexander, but in terms of trade and their economy they were rivals with the Persians, and were capable of defending their interests.

Where would you say that cycle is now? Does it still happen?
:w:

It is hard to say. With the advent of nuclear weapons it sort of puts things at a standstill in terms of great struggles between empires. The battlefield is now more economic than military. Those nations with vast oil reserves were and are economically successful. The superpowers of the world depended upon their oil to keep their societies afloat. With oil beginning to fall behind demand, it could lead to some unfortunate incidents in the future.

[alcurad]

all civilizations started out like what? and as Umar ibn Al Khattab said: there is only decrease after achieving completeness. the situation has vastly improved over the last 2-3 centuries, the only thing lacking is a revolution, not necessarily the French type but one in the realm of information.

[Dawud_uk]

Here we can ask what does it mean - "advanced" or "succesful" country. In my opinion in such country all homes have electricity and warm water. The medical care is on high level. The education is effective. The unemployment is low, which makes easy for young people to begin work. The police is uncorrupted and there is safety on the streets. The state gives enough social help to help those who really need it.
For example UK :D

my definition of advanced is then very different to yours (and by the replies most peoples here)

my definition of advanced is where the people worship their creator and submit to him, so therefore there is little crime or disorder, and the police fearing Allah will not be corrupt.

they submit so also follow the commandmants to educate themselves and seek knowledge so the medical care and education is good also.

but also finally the people knowing the world is but a trust from Allah which they must answer for and doesnt belong to them, they will look after it as best they can.

i.e definately not the uk where i happen to live myself and know the police are far from good, the streets are not safe in many parts, the soil is often poisonous and the water undrinkable unless more chemicals added, and the educational system is poor also, more useful for producing worker drones than educating.

[Nerd]

By the mid-8th Century, the Muslims had established one of the world's largest ever and most powerful Empires, headed by the Abbasid Caliphate.

The new capital of that Empire - Baghdad - became the unrivaled intellectual center of the World.

Influenced by such Prophetic sayings as 'The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs" , they went on to invent science.

As if charging forward with a cry of 'Iqra!' (Read!) the next 700 years or so became an age of splendid achievement, enlightenment and invention.

The Muslims had learned the secret Chinese art of making paper and put it to good use.

The Muslims also gave the world their first public hospitals, introduced the first lending libraries, established the first Universities that issued degrees and diplomas, financed research centers, constructed astronomical observatories and promoted intellectual thinking on a vast scale.

Chemistry was practically INVENTED by the Muslims. (Distillation, Crystallization, Filtration, Calcination were all invented in this age.)

Algebra was invented during this time, as was one of the greatest inventions of the time - the Astrolabe.

Apart from that, ancient Greek, Roman and Indian wisdom was rediscovered and translated into various languages during this period.

Scholars and polymaths - both Muslim and Non-Muslim - met with the intention of translating all the knowledge in the world into Arabic (which was then then translated into Persian, Turkish and Hebrew)

The Mosque was also a center of learning, where one could sit at the teacher's feet and learn subjects ranging from Astronomy to Chemistry.

The literary masterpiece The Rubaaiyat of Omar Khayyaam also belongs to this era.

The Muslims charted the Seas and mapped the Skies. They produced, collated, spread and preserved information, in hundreds of thousands of volumes, in libraries in Spain and Persia and Morocco and Egypt.

This, at a time when Christian Europe was in the dark ages - thanks to the powerful Church which didn't let common folk read even the Bible.

The courts of Caliph Harun-Al-Rashid invited scholars from among Muslims, Jews and Atheists alike to their 'House of Wisdom'. The most famous Caliph of Baghdad patronized Music and Art. Culture, religion and Economy prospered.

The great personalties, philosophers and polymaths of that time - Ibn Sina (known to the world as Avicenna), Geber, Averroes, Omar Khayyaam, Al-Khwarizmi, Al Biruni, Abu Haytham, Al-Khaldun and dozens of others were the products of an age when rational thought, intellectual pursuit and experimental method were part of the state policy.

Thus was the Golden Age of Islam.

Who Killed the Golden Age?

Now. All good things come to an end.

The Crusades happened. The Mongols arrived. The Plague struck. The Empire hurt.

The Crusaders and Mongols (The Chengiz Khan himself!) burnt down those Libraries and Universities and Hospitals. The invasions and weakened the Empire.

AND SURPRISE!

That's when the Islamists struck! No kidding. Even in that Golden, intellectual age, there was no dearth of morons or Enemies of reason.

Those Islamists declared the invasions to be 'God's Punishment' for pursuit of polemic (read: UnIslamic) thinking.

Certain "scholars" and philosophers like Al-Ghazali declared free thought to be against the scriptures (ie. 'against Islam') in his book 'The Incoherence of Philosophers'.

Ijtihad was "against Islam". Bid'ah (innovation) was 'against Islam'. The list of things 'against Islam' kept growing.

Sure enough, a lack of tolerance for intellectual debate kicked in. Freedom of thought got restricted. Innovation ended. Punishments started.

By the 14th Century, the pipe had completely shut.The Golden Age ended.


The Dreadful West.

We all know what happened after the Golden age of Islam ended.

Martin Luther King told the Pope to suck it, and started the Protestant movement that broke the Church's vice-grip over the state. The Europeans stepped out of their centuries of ignorance, with their own fantastic Renaissance.

Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Galilieo and Shakespeare arrived on the scene, and Geber and Avicenna were forgotten.

Art, architecture, music, literature, science and invention flourished. Somebody invented the Gutenberg Press (OK, I think it was Gutenberg.. :p) and kickstarted the printing industry. (Of course, by this time, all these things had become 'unIslamic'.)

Exploration of the seas took place. New worlds - America and East Indies were discovered. Colonization began. The Portuguese, French, English and Spanish all took a slice of the world.

The West took over, and the WEST has dominated the world ever since.

Telegrams, Postal systems, Electricity, Light bulbs, Steam Engines, Railway lines, Telephones, Tape Recorders, Vaccines, Automobiles, Jet Engines, Submarines, Computers, Internet, Nuclear power, Spacecrafts, Satellites.. they've invented it all.

The Mullahs remained mute spectators.

21st Century : The Irony!

So I wrote a post the other day simply stating what everyone already knows.

The 'Muslim countries' are pathetically backward. The 'West' continues to achieve greatness.

In a tragic twist of fate, today the Islamists - having achieved nothing in history - turn once again to 'the Golden Age of Islam'!

The very Golden Age that they killed with their "It's all un-Islamic" !

JUST WHO ARE THEY TRYING TO FOOL?!

The Golden Age of Islam was the result of highly progressive values, encouragement of Art, Music and Innovation, promotion of rational and polemic thinking, investment in science and experimentation, sanction for research and exploration and FREEDOM of thought and expression.

The greatest figures of that day weren't necessarily Muslim, but their wisdom and Scholarship were appreciated and given due credit.

Omar Khayyaam, a hero of the 'Golden Age', wrote in his wonderful Rubaaiyat (ironically, reintroduced to the world by a 'Western' Edward Fitzgerald)

Allah, perchance, the secret word might spell;
If Allah be, He keeps His secret well;
What He hath hidden, who shall hope to find?
Shall God His secret to a maggot tell?


Tell me if I am wrong. But if Omar Khayyaam were alive today, he'd be declared an apostate twice over, and hounded with a Death-note fatwa and a $5 million bounty on his head.

The Islamists of today who dream of magically re-establishing a Caliphate and 'restore the glory' clearly CANNOT, DO NOT and WILL NOT EVER dare to permit free expression, cultivate the scientific method or tolerate different opinions. Their mentality is exactly like the medieval church. Their very existence depends on people's ignorance.

Reviving Islam's Golden age? And Them?! Let me get this straight.

The Islamists never have - and never will - achieve any greatness. History bears witness to their regressive ways. The losers have only ever stopped any progressive action from taking place.


P.S. Here's another pearl from Omar Khayyaam that I treasure.

And do you think that unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
God gave the secret, and denied it me?—
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that too!

[alcurad]

very naive summation of over a millennium of history spanning dozens of people, cultures and empires. not that the muslims are not in a very good shape, but still if you swallow up all that 'official' version that mostly the Islamists out of all people seem to sprout, I do recommend you read more history.
I don't mean to denounce you, but I have a problem with the idea that it was all roses and algebra back then..

[Nerd]

very naive summation of over a millennium of history spanning dozens of people, cultures and empires. not that the muslims are not in a very good shape, but still if you swallow up all that 'official' version that mostly the Islamists out of all people seem to sprout, I do recommend you read more history.
I don't mean to denounce you, but I have a problem with the idea that it was all roses and algebra back then..

I know it sounds very simplistic - because like you said, it is nearly a thousand years compressed to a few sentences.

I haven't even bothered to maintain a strict timeline - you'll see all 700 years together.

But I can assure you it's not due to naivety or from a lack of research.

My post is sufficient to prove the points I wish to prove.

First being that among the many causes that had lead to the end of an unrivalled knowledge age, Islamist fundamentalism played no small role.

It's recorded history.

Their regressive ideology exerted huge pressures in the latter days of the Golden age.

History talks of artists who've had their hands chopped off, others were ridiculed and intidmidated in teh later years for being 'anti-Islamic' and straying from "God's path".

(Which is pretty much what the Islamists continue to do to this day)

SO when today's Islamists talk of an 'Islamic GOlden Age', let their hypocrisy or ignorance be known.

It wasn't their ideology that led to this GOlden Age.

Conversely, it was the rejection of their ideology and pursuing the scientific method and free expression and open questioning of all established norms that led to that genius age.

I find it funny that the Islamists today try to brainwash people against the west by claiming that the Golden Age was 'superior' to the Western development.

The truth is that the Western development is due to their continuing application of scientific ideals started by the Chinese and Golden Age era Caliphs like Harun-Al-Rashid.

"The West" learned from the GOlden age.

If you want to 'revive' a Golden age that the Islamists killed, then follow the 'West' not them.

[Dawud_uk]

I know it sounds very simplistic - because like you said, it is nearly a thousand years compressed to a few sentences.

I haven't even bothered to maintain a strict timeline - you'll see all 700 years together.

But I can assure you it's not due to naivety or from a lack of research.

My post is sufficient to prove the points I wish to prove.

First being that among the many causes that had lead to the end of an unrivalled knowledge age, Islamist fundamentalism played no small role.

It's recorded history.

Their regressive ideology exerted huge pressures in the latter days of the Golden age.

History talks of artists who've had their hands chopped off, others were ridiculed and intidmidated in teh later years for being 'anti-Islamic' and straying from "God's path".

(Which is pretty much what the Islamists continue to do to this day)

SO when today's Islamists talk of an 'Islamic GOlden Age', let their hypocrisy or ignorance be known.

It wasn't their ideology that led to this GOlden Age.

Conversely, it was the rejection of their ideology and pursuing the scientific method and free expression and open questioning of all established norms that led to that genius age.

I find it funny that the Islamists today try to brainwash people against the west by claiming that the Golden Age was 'superior' to the Western development.

The truth is that the Western development is due to their continuing application of scientific ideals started by the Chinese and Golden Age era Caliphs like Harun-Al-Rashid.

"The West" learned from the GOlden age.

If you want to 'revive' a Golden age that the Islamists killed, then follow the 'West' not them.

your post is not evidence, it is opinion, well researched opinion but it is not evidence.

there is i believe a better analysis of history from the point of view of the islamists, that of people staying from the right path and hence as a people being punished.

what is more there is huge evidence for such opinion not just from history but also from the Quran and sunnah, that this is the way Allah deals with people who ignore his rulings.

[Nerd]

^ with all respect, would you mind defining the right path? I would like to know whether am contradicting it or not with what I have stated.

[Dawud_uk]

^ with all respect, would you mind defining the right path? I would like to know whether am contradicting it or not with what I have stated.

the right path is the Quran and sunnah, Allah and his messenger (saws) have informed us of what will happen if certain parts of islam are ignored and this is the cause of our demise not the lack of intellectual persuit, which is a symptom of a wider demise not a cause.

[Bittersteel]

Was the former president of Pakistan General Pervez Musharaff, right when he said: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

1 million per cent agree.

Kuffar Prizes dont decide whos intelligent or not

I think that's a petty excuse to cover up the obvious failure in innovation and research.
I can look around and see NOTHING in the last 100 or so years that a Muslim can feel proud of having contributed to.

^agree with what he said.

I think we are going through a phase...one of the phases of the fall of Muslim civilization.

[Keltoi]

The Dreadful West.

We all know what happened after the Golden age of Islam ended.

Martin Luther King told the Pope to suck it, and started the Protestant movement that broke the Church's vice-grip over the state. The Europeans stepped out of their centuries of ignorance, with their own fantastic Renaissance.

Just a correction. You mean Martin Luther. Martin Luther King was the American civil rights leader.

[alcurad]

the method of government is the cause I think, not any particular ideology. the rulers used these ideologies for their ends, except for a few backwaters, where do the islamists hold sway?
I'm afraid you are buying the whole nine yards and more of the myth that the islamists have even a semblance of control of any country or region.
what we lack, is indeed a pure version of Islam, one that does not care for sect or ethnicity or any kind of specialness, but we lack even more when it comes to science and it's applications.
I would say economic prosperity will be a good starting point for that, notice the more well off societies generally got richer first, then started reforming.

[Nerd]

Just a correction. You mean Martin Luther. Martin Luther King was the American civil rights leader.

Thanks. I stand corrected. Don't know where the King came from.. :-)

[Dawud_uk]

the method of government is the cause I think, not any particular ideology. the rulers used these ideologies for their ends, except for a few backwaters, where do the islamists hold sway?
I'm afraid you are buying the whole nine yards and more of the myth that the islamists have even a semblance of control of any country or region.
what we lack, is indeed a pure version of Islam, one that does not care for sect or ethnicity or any kind of specialness, but we lack even more when it comes to science and it's applications.
I would say economic prosperity will be a good starting point for that, notice the more well off societies generally got richer first, then started reforming.

did the prophet muhammad (saws) start with getting the economy right first or the society first upon the Quran and sunnah?

[AabiruSabeel]

إذا تبايعتم بالعينة، وأخذتم أذناب البقر، و رضيتم بالزرع، وتركتم الجهاد؛ سلط الله عليكم ذلا لا ينزعه حتى ترجعوا إلى دينكم

"When you start usurious trade, when you grab a hold of cows' tails and limit yourselves to farming and abandon Jihad, Allah will sent upon you humiliation, from which you will not be delivered until you return to your Faith."

(Authentic Hadith reported by Ahmad).

Isn't the above Hadeeth a clear explanation for our problems?

During the time of our Prophet (PBUH), there were scores of problems in all spheres of life. The tribal wars, the insecurity (looting of caravans), the peak of ignorance, burying daughters alive, doing Tawaf naked, usury, intoxicants and all types of social evils were rampant.
Now to remove all these evils from society, what would the present day intellectuals say? Build a university, spread education, bring economic reform... follow the west...
But what did our Prophet (PBUH) did which made those who followed him the rulers of the world, an example for the living and dead?
It was just the effort of Iman. O people! say La ilaha illallah, you will be successful. O people! follow the commands of Allah, and live your life according to Sunnah, you will be successful...

The same is the case now. If we want to bring about a revolution in the Muslim world, we have to do the same efforts that were done by all the Prophets and Messengers, and later by SaHabah...

:w:

[Nerd]

the right path is the Quran and sunnah, Allah and his messenger (saws) have informed us of what will happen if certain parts of islam are ignored and this is the cause of our demise not the lack of intellectual persuit, which is a symptom of a wider demise not a cause.

I haven't mentioned anywhere in the post not to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. But I have mentioned quiet clearly that so-called Islamist's today tend to misinterpret Quran, Hadith and what-not to fit to their perverted version of Islam.

For example:

Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) went to war riding a camel.. God instructed the Prophet.. God knows best.. so today do we have to ride camels to our wars? If not, why? And if so what about the changed ground reality?

[Thinker]

Are Muslims backward is not a good question. A better question would be – why have certain societies failed and others succeeded.

Without getting bogged down in defining success and failure it is unarguable that citizens of some societies have a more secure and comfortable life than others. The question is – why? A prime example is Africa which has huge wealth in natural resources and for the most part, the people are starving. I was recently in a group when a person attempted to provoke an argument asked the question “are Africans less intelligent than Europeans?” I have lived and worked in Africa and know that on an individual basis they are equally as intelligent as any other race. I am not sure they share the same energy or ambition but that might be cultural. I have also worked lived and worked in China and India and they are very ‘intelligent’ and appear to have a greater energy and ambition than Europeans yet they haven’t been as successful.

I suspect that culture has a lot to do with providing the enabling environment for success. I believe corruption in all its forms is a huge factor. For example culturally, if a police man in the UK stopped a (native) British motorist and asked for a bribe 999 out of 1000 would refuse to pay and report the policeman. Would it be the same in Pakistan? But it’s not just corruption it’s a culture that values certain standards and certain achievements. I believe a culture that is constantly striving to copy the lifestyle of 7C Bedouins isn’t going to achieve the same things as another striving for other goals – but some might argue that getting a place in heaven is more important than achieving earthly success.

[Dawud_uk]

I haven't mentioned anywhere in the post not to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. But I have mentioned quiet clearly that so-called Islamist's today tend to misinterpret Quran, Hadith and what-not to fit to their perverted version of Islam.

For example:

Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) went to war riding a camel.. God instructed the Prophet.. God knows best.. so today do we have to ride camels to our wars? If not, why? And if so what about the changed ground reality?

nerd, i really assumed given your previous posts you were not this daft to make such a point as it is so easy it refute it hardly seems worth the effort.

The sunnah is in matters of religious affairs, so going by car is not an innovation, really come on now, is that the best you can do? i feel quite insulted you would use such a low brow argument against me.

but to go back to matters of war, using a gun instead of a bow and arrow, this is not an innovation and training in rifle shooting would fulfil the sunnah of practicing with a bow and arrow.

but the choice of whether to kill, enslave, randsom or release prisoners of war belonging to the amir is something that will remain whatever the means of capturing them due to different tactics and weaponry used.

[Thinker]

Are Muslims backward is not a good question. A better question would be – why have certain societies failed and others succeeded.

Asking questions of my own question! - - why is it that India is prospering (in relative terms) whilst Paksitan and Bangladesh are in meltdown?

[Amadeus85]

Asking questions of my own question! - - why is it that India is prospering (in relative terms) whilst Paksitan and Bangladesh are in meltdown?

Depends what You mean as "prospering". India is a country with hundreds million of illiterate starving citizens, with the enormous poorness which cant be even imaginable. Also Pakistan had good economic growth before the current issues hapenned there.

[Bittersteel]

why is it that India is prospering (in relative terms) whilst Paksitan and Bangladesh are in meltdown?

where???show me please.Last time I saw we were still doing great.But it's an honour to be compared to India a country so much bigger than ours and much more resources and military and political strength.
let me ask you something:Why is the west now in such an economic meltdown especially the United States?

A better question would be – why have certain societies failed and others succeeded.

because of people's mentality??

For example culturally, if a police man in the UK stopped a (native) British motorist and asked for a bribe 999 out of 1000 would refuse to pay and report the policeman. Would it be the same in Pakistan?

But it’s not just corruption it’s a culture that values certain standards and certain achievements. I believe a culture that is constantly striving to copy the lifestyle of 7C Bedouins isn’t going to achieve the same things as another striving for other goals – but some might argue that getting a place in heaven is more important than achieving earthly success.

what has bribing/corruption got to do with 7C anyways?what kind of an analogy is that??can you please be clear I really didn't get you.

[Nerd]

The sunnah is in matters of religious affairs, so going by car is not an innovation, really come on now, is that the best you can do? i feel quite insulted you would use such a low brow argument against me.

FYI I wasn't arguing against you, but rather pointing out what I have stated earlier as you seem to have misinterpreted what I have written.

[alcurad]

did the prophet muhammad (saws) start with getting the economy right first or the society first upon the Quran and sunnah?

there is not much distinction, and the situation was vastly different then to begin comparing.

[Dawud_uk]

there is not much distinction, and the situation was vastly different then to begin comparing.

no, you are wrong, the situation is remarkably simular if you look at the spiritual amd moral problems.

let me put it to you this way, when Allah destroys and punished peoples in the past because of their spiritual and moral problems, and releaved these problems and also gave them worldly success when they repented why would Allah change that method now when it has been true for the rest of human history?

[alcurad]

yes but now it's much more complex, there are more people, more cultures, more everything, and no prophet, not to mention muslims differ on what Islam is to begin with, it's very different from back then.

[doorster]

.....

[wth1257]

I think that's a petty excuse to cover up the obvious failure in innovation and research.

I can look around and see NOTHING in the last 100 or so years that a Muslim can feel proud of having contributed to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumrun_Vafa

[Muezzin]

I think that's a petty excuse to cover up the obvious failure in innovation and research.

I can look around and see NOTHING in the last 100 or so years that a Muslim can feel proud of having contributed to.

Are you saying my parents should have aborted?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

lol Nerd should get his facts checked muslims have contributed in ways he cant imagine.

contribution doesnt just come from technological advances, it comes from aiding society.
and muslims have been doing that from day 1 and never stopped

[AntiKarateKid]

How about this as a contribution... still believing in monotheism and the hearafter as opposed to the rest of the world's materialism and paganism?


As long as there is 1 good believer out there following the ways of the Prophet pbuh, Muslims have contributed to society.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: Islam began as something strange, and it shall return to being something strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers."

Yes, we arent exactly as shining as we were in the good ol' days but...




WE ARE STILL HERE! And as long as we are here and have the Quran and hadith there is always the possibility of improvement.



Edit: LOL 666 posts..ooooooh

[AntiKarateKid]

On a side note, who is to say that the rest of the world isnt backward in its own ways?

The West with it's social experiments on homosexuality and its ilk, the obscene promiscuity abounding there too. People forgetting about their creator and pouring all their heart into this ephemeral Dunya? Jews and Israel? Christians and their multitudinous sects all based around a man god?


In retrospect, the question is not "are Muslims backward" because the rest of the world has its own "backwardness".

The question is, "Are Muslims upright enough?"

Only we have the truth and the tools to spread it. And Spread it has.

If Muslims are so backward.... why the deluge of new converts? Even in light of fierce criticism and mischaracterization from the media?




This Ummah has to concentrate on it's strengths which greatly outweigh its CURRENT problems in order to glorify Allah as our Islamic forefathers did!







"'(Disbelieving) nations will appear to be inviting each other to you just as diners invite each other to eat a bowl of stew.' Then someone asked: 'Will that be because we will be small in number at that time?' He answered: 'On the contrary, you, at that time, will be many. However, you will be scum and foam like the scum and foam of bodies of water. Allah will remove fear of you from the breasts of your enemies and Allah will instill al-wahn (weakness) in your hearts.' Someone asked: 'Oh Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?' He replied: 'Love of the life of this world and an aversion to dying.'

[doorster]

being rather provocative, are you not? I could understand it if it was in response to a particular post otherwise it is an invitation for an attack on Islam

[AntiKarateKid]

being rather provocative, are you not? I could understand it if it was in response to a particular post otherwise it is an invitation for an attack on Islam

I'm sorry brother but what does that mean?

Correct me if I'm wrong but your post came across as very condescending and dismissive. I fail to see how trying to assuage our frustration is an "invitation" for an attack on Islam.

My post was meant to bring light to the other side of the coin and end this argument. Yes the Ummah has it's problems right now but they pale in comparison to the rest of the world, and we have the tools to fix it and Allah on our side.

Your attitude toward me is exactly what tears the Ummah apart. One of us thinks he is knows better and mocks or insults other Muslims. Your attitude breeds hostility.

Let's all step back and take a deep breath. Once we've done that we can focus on ways to unite repair the Ummah, not pick at it's faults.

Peace, brothers and sisters.

[doorster]

does not matter any more, sorry to have inconvenienced you, carry on as you were. I'll be disabled from posting any minute now so there is no need to reply me.

suffice it to say nothing but leave you with:

*{Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, Lest They out of spite Revile Allah In their ignorance. Thus have we made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and we shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.}* (Al-An`am 6:108)

cheers and bye