Secularists in Somalia sidelined as mujahideen take Mogadishu

[Dawud_uk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7830526.stm

:sl:

it has been reported in the media that those islamic forces who have until now been negotiating with the government have alongside the more militant groups taken control of all but two bases in the somali capital mogadishu, sidelining the secular government of somalia.

the secular government now controls only a fraction of the capital, alongside one town, with the islamic forces that made up the islamic courts union controlling almost all of southern somalia.

:sl:

[Omar_Mukhtar]

all praise is to Allah.( that the abysnians are leaving)

[KAding]

I am getting a déjà vu sensation :S.

Personally I hope one side or the other simply gets control and rebuilds a functioning state in Somalia.

[Dawud_uk]

I am getting a déjà vu sensation :S.

Personally I hope one side or the other simply gets control and rebuilds a functioning state in Somalia.

unfortunetely we both know what happend last time the forces of islam took over southern somalia dont we?

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[nocturnal]

The world is being deliberately misled about these so called "jihadists/islamists/extremists". These fighters are no different from any other resistance movement in the world. Ethiopian forces are finally withdrawing and in their wake there is still a venal and subservient regime fronted by Abdullahi Yusuf which was sponsored by the US and it's cronies. Don't loose sight of the fact that the reason Somalia is in anarchy today, is because Mohamed Siad Barre was overthrown by the very same savage warlords financed and supported by the US, and who subsequently in 2004 were legitimized by the UN under the aegis of the US to form the apparently benevolent and humane "Transitional Federal Government".

The Islamic Courts Union which was founded by the political bureau of the very same militant organization that is now poised to consolidate it's control over Somalia, heralded peace, stability, commerce, education and empowerment. A fact that has been documented by numerous international organisations and foreign regimes. So them re-establishing their dominon over southern Somalia should not be percieved as an ominous sign of a genocidal regime. They are anything but that. Most of the strictures levelled at them are unfounded and misplaced. Yes they are not infallible, just like any other administration in the world, but even a perfunctory glimpse at their track record reveals that by far, they are the most viable governmental option Somalis have at this crucial juncture.

[KAding]

unfortunetely we both know what happend last time the forces of islam took over southern somalia dont we?

Indeed, Ethiopia and to an extend the US.

However, these "forces of Islam" have to an extend themselves to blame. They have the unfortunate skill of making enemies. Firstly in Ethiopia by making claims on Ogaden and, secondly, the US by dealing with people who were responsible for the 1998 US embassy bombings in Africa. They end up making themselves seem (rightly or wrongly) as a threat to powerful countries, hardly a solid base for nation-building and stability.

[Dawud_uk]

Indeed, Ethiopia and to an extend the US.

However, these "forces of Islam" have to an extend themselves to blame. They have the unfortunate skill of making enemies. Firstly in Ethiopia by making claims on Ogaden and, secondly, the US by dealing with people who were responsible for the 1998 US embassy bombings in Africa. They end up making themselves seem (rightly or wrongly) as a threat to powerful countries, hardly a solid base for nation-building and stability.

do you know the history of the region?

ogaden was only ethiopian because the british gave it to them when they conquered the somali area, this was only a little over a hundred years ago.

[KAding]

do you know the history of the region?

ogaden was only ethiopian because the british gave it to them when they conquered the somali area, this was only a little over a hundred years ago.

This seems an age old problem of many Islamist movements. Their inablity to make a realistic appraisal of what is politically and internationally feasible. Time and again principles are put before realistic goals. In a way this admirable, but it also means they never get anywhere!

You might well be right about Ogaden, but that is not the point. By making these claims on Ogaden when they did they made themselves a threat to the Ethiopians, at a time when they had not yet established a firm power base for themselves.

I sometimes get the feeling that this overwhelming urge for Islamic Justice and desire to please Allah clouds their judgment and renders them incapable of taking a more pragmatic and patient approach. It's a number one rule in power politics, first become strong and only then start pushing around others. Otherwise you will just hasten your own downfall.

[Dawud_uk]

This seems an age old problem of many Islamist movements. Their inablity to make a realistic appraisal of what is politically and internationally feasible. Time and again principles are put before realistic goals. In a way this admirable, but it also means they never get anywhere!

You might well be right about Ogaden, but that is not the point. By making these claims on Ogaden when they did they made themselves a threat to the Ethiopians, at a time when they had not yet established a firm power base for themselves.

I sometimes get the feeling that this overwhelming urge for Islamic Justice and desire to please Allah clouds their judgment and renders them incapable of taking a more pragmatic and patient approach. It's a number one rule in power politics, first become strong and only then start pushing around others. Otherwise you will just hasten your own downfall.

i agree to a certain degree, and this was the method of muhammad (saws), establishing his powerbase before taking on the disbelievers.

but i also disagree to a certain degree as many times in islamic history the muslims with little more than faith in Allah and much fewer numbers than their enemies have destroyed them precisely because Allah rewards such reliance upon him.

so it is a balance between the two, i am assumed the somali mujhahideen will not make the same mistake again but we'll see.

as it is they are now controlling almost all of the south again and inshallah (God willing) will take the rest of the country back under shariah law, which even if you dont agree with it will have to be a better way for them than the law of the gun which is there now.

[Pomak]

Somali developments

My confidential (and "highly-placed") Somali source sent me this information on the new president of Somalia: "What I can tell you about him is my own observations of him and his team (the ARS) during the last 9 months but also the differents talks and discussions that I had with manu Somalis and others participants during the negociations of the Djibouti Agreement. What struck me from the beginning was the discipline of Sheikh Sharif at many level: I never saw him loosing his temper even during the most heated times of the negociations. Secondely, I was really amazed by the discipline of his team of negociations: always on time and well prepared... while the TFG team were always in disarray and fighting each others. Third, the composition of his team is very diverse: intellectuals, business peoples, women, youths, elders... etc. And, althought I never had the chance to participate at one of their private meeting, I get informations from some of the participants that Sheikh Sharif style is a participatory one, that he have a great skill when it come to listen to everyones and that he also have great communications skills. Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed was born on July 25, 1964 in the Shabeellaha Dhexe province of Somalia and studied at Libyan and Sudanese universities. He has worked as a secondary school teacher of geography, Arabic, and religious studies. He speaks Arabic, Somali, and English, and he is from the Abgaal branch of the Hawiye clan (one of the two major clan in Somalia, the other one is the Darood clan).. Sheik Sharif Sheikh Ahmed started his education in Somalia at the Sheik Sufi Institute which was connected to the University of Al-Azhar in Egypt. He then continued his education by entering into Kurdufan University in Sudan where he persued a degree in Islamic law. He the left for Tripoli, Libya and entered into the Open University there where he completed his Islamic law degree in 1998. He came back to Somalia in 2000 when the TFG was created during the Arta Conference in Djibouti and the election of a first president (that was close to the Islamist): Abdikasim Salad Hassan. Soon after, he became involved with the ICU that will take power in Mogadishu from the warlords in June 2006. On December 28, 2006, after only six months in power and the defeat of the ICU's army, he committed himself to fighting the Ethopian forces in Somalia. After the ICU's defeat, he fled towards the Kenyan border. Sheikh Sharif is married and he have two children, Ahmad, aged 9 and Abdullah, who is a toddler. He live in a modest house in Mogadishu. The others things that I can tell you is that for the first time, the MPs vote wasn't a vote based on clan and ethnicity but a sign that a lot of MPs see Sheikh Sharif as a geniune leader that can bring everyone togheter. Beside, I witnessed from my discussion with the MPs and others Somali participants that there is a real fatigue of the ongoing fight. Sheikh Sharif is the only one people remember that brought peace and security to Mogadishu from the warlords in 2006. Furthermore, he is young, talented, and a lot of peoples were telling me that he is an "honest guy" compared to all the others politicians. Finally, a lot of people appreciate the fact that this guy is not ashamed of being a muslim during a time when that definition is associated with terrorism. That's all for now As'ad!"

(don't blame me for lack of paragraphs ph34r.gif )

[nocturnal]

Kading, the Islamic Movements do make realistic evaluations of what is politically feasible or not. But they do it within doctrinal parameters, which doesn't have to mean that they are compromising their principles or moral values in any way.

They are all for pragmatism and international engagement; no sensible political entity would actively pursue policies that would inexorably lead it to being ostracised internationally. But, as has often been the case with Somalia, extraneous circumstances do play a part in the formulation of policies. And these percieved threats to their government and sovereignty often compel them to resort to measures that elicit swift international condemnation.

For example, the Islamic Courts Union which governed Somalia for 6 months in 2006, in what way precisely do you feel they were devoid of any pragmatism? rather, they, by implementing assiduously Shari'a law, took the most pragmatic step conceivable to stabilise Somalia. And it worked did it not?

[Pomak]

Kading, the Islamic Movements do make realistic evaluations of what is politically feasible or not. But they do it within doctrinal parameters, which doesn't have to mean that they are compromising their principles or moral values in any way.

They are all for pragmatism and international engagement; no sensible political entity would actively pursue policies that would inexorably lead it to being ostracised internationally. But, as has often been the case with Somalia, extraneous circumstances do play a part in the formulation of policies. And these percieved threats to their government and sovereignty often compel them to resort to measures that elicit swift international condemnation.

For example, the Islamic Courts Union which governed Somalia for 6 months in 2006, in what way precisely do you feel they were devoid of any pragmatism? rather, they, by implementing assiduously Shari'a law, took the most pragmatic step conceivable to stabilise Somalia. And it worked did it not?

I think its wrong to think that every "Islamic Movement" is good or pragmatic. To quote a shaykh, "some of these "islamists" were uncompromising socialists in 89 and after the wall the only thing they changed was their rallying cry."

And even if you don't agree with the above, the nature of political parties is that some compromise when they shouldn't(case and point abbas) and some others don't compromise when they should. Both eventually loose support and are irrelevant. As they say, politics is the art of compromise.

[nocturnal]

I think its wrong to think that every "Islamic Movement" is good or pragmatic. To quote a shaykh, "some of these "islamists" were uncompromising socialists in 89 and after the wall the only thing they changed was their rallying cry."

And even if you don't agree with the above, the nature of political parties is that some compromise when they shouldn't(case and point abbas) and some others don't compromise when they should. Both eventually loose support and are irrelevant. As they say, politics is the art of compromise.

The question here is one of who precisely is devoid of pragmatism. It is not the movements, for their objective is to redress the unjustness that has resulted in the destruction of the lands that they are generally seeking to improve.

Im not saying each and every movement that purports to be implementing Islamic law is magnificently benign and munificent, just that broadly speaking, they have all sought to, and to a certain degree, suceeded in ameliorating the plight of their citizenry only by rejecting foreign neo-colonialist intervention in their affairs.

And when they reject such avaricious imperialistic advances and opt instead to assert their dignity and sovereignty, they are promptly deemed extremist, terrorist, authoritarian etc and denounced with vehemence. So seen in this context, it is the foreign powers that need to infuse pragmatism into their policies towards these movements and not propagate a blind, zealous rejection of any movement Islamic or otherwise that chooses not to conform to their agendas.

[Pomak]

The question here is one of who precisely is devoid of pragmatism. It is not the movements, for their objective is to redress the unjustness that has resulted in the destruction of the lands that they are generally seeking to improve.

Im not saying each and every movement that purports to be implementing Islamic law is magnificently benign and munificent, just that broadly speaking, they have all sought to, and to a certain degree, suceeded in ameliorating the plight of their citizenry only by rejecting foreign neo-colonialist intervention in their affairs.

And when they reject such avaricious imperialistic advances and opt instead to assert their dignity and sovereignty, they are promptly deemed extremist, terrorist, authoritarian etc and denounced with vehemence. So seen in this context, it is the foreign powers that need to infuse pragmatism into their policies towards these movements and not propagate a blind, zealous rejection of any movement Islamic or otherwise that chooses not to conform to their agendas.

Doesn't fit the reality. The current head of the govt is the former head of the ICU. And he is getting support from OS. I mean i doubt he changed his tune that much, he was one of the original people who set up the ICU.

Anyways i pray for peace and security for Somalia and the rest of Africa. :)

[nocturnal]

It very much fits the reality. I don't know what you mean by OS, unless you meant to say the US. Indeed Shaykh Ahmed was the head of the ICU, and that is why he is the only one who has the credibility and stands a realistic chance of integrating the Al Shabaab militants into the new government structure.

What Somalia has had to endure, is years of anarchy wrought and exacerbated by failed western policies especially after the American expedtion in 1993. The problem is, we're dealing with not an intentionally imperceptive american administration, but one that sees its interests emobdied firmly in the destablisation of Somalia. Which is why the ICU was driven from power by the neo-cons who backed the Ethiopians.

I think now with the new administration in office, it would be a bit diffcult for them to perhaps overtly seek to undermine this nascent government, principally, perhaps because its establishment, formation and consolidation has UN backing.