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Jalill
01-16-2009, 05:39 AM
My name is Islay and I'm in Portland, OR, USA. I'm just here to try to learn more about the religion. From the sound of it, it sounds very beautiful and I would love to be able to understand it more in depth. ^^;

Feel free to add me to your MSN messenger if you have one... :)

Cheers!
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Dawud_uk
01-16-2009, 06:01 AM
Originally Posted by Jalill
My name is Islay and I'm in Portland, OR, USA. I'm just here to try to learn more about the religion. From the sound of it, it sounds very beautiful and I would love to be able to understand it more in depth. ^^;

Feel free to add me to your MSN messenger if you have one... :)

Cheers!
you list your religion as pagan, what exactly do you believe?
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 06:03 AM
Eh, it's just the category that best fit since it wasn't on the drop down list. I'm specifically belonging to Asatru, which is Germanic/Scandinavian indigenous belief. Technically a pagan religion but many Asatruar prefer not to use the term.
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Dawud_uk
01-16-2009, 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by Jalill
Eh, it's just the category that best fit since it wasn't on the drop down list. I'm specifically belonging to Asatru, which is Germanic/Scandinavian indigenous belief. Technically a pagan religion but many Asatruar prefer not to use the term.
ok, i think i am pretty good and explaining why islam is a good faith, can you tell me what you think is good about it and what do you think is good about your own faith?
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 06:53 AM
Well, my friend you've asked me quite a broad question. :) I'm sure that Islam is a good faith, I know only a little bit about it and would like to know more. I'm not at all looking to join the religion, just understand it. I think a lot of problems around the world stem from not understanding others, but anyway...

"Islam is careful to remind us that it not a religion to be paid mere lip service; rather it is an all-encompassing way of life that must be practiced continuously..." as quoted in the thread, http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...hat-islam.html, struck me as a very profound statement. I'm well familiar with religions such as Christianity that are almost ubiquitous in their presence in the world and the one thing that I've always been struck by the hypocrisy present. A lot of people profess their belief, and behind closed doors (or sometimes less discreetly) perform actions contradictory to their supposed faith. Many of the prominent paths have their names mired down by sedentary followers with wagging tongues.

Now, I am by no means taking that post, and that quote in that post at face value and simply accepting it because it's written there, rest assured. In school I had a Muslim friend who was very kind in explaining to me why she wore the hijab and always behaved herself after a certain way. Unfortunately I never got to ask her more in depth questions as we only had one class together and were separated by a grade level, but to me she exemplified what a true religion encapsulates. She lived her faith, not preached it. She always acted with a sense of personal honor, and it's struck me in my readings that this is something innately emphasised Islam which is probably is at the core of what I find so fascinating and beautiful about the path. Always conduct oneself honourably, and adhering to one's faith in ALL aspects of life is the only true honourable decision when claiming to be of a creed.

Likewise, in Asatru there is the same concept, but it is in a slightly different light. In my path, we have a set of nine virtues that we strive to uphold. These are: courage, truth, honour, fidelity, discipline, hospitality, industriousness, perserverence and self-reliance. They stem mostly from the cultural background, as the Scandinavian people had to contend with a harsh environment. If one person failed to do their chore, the whole community would suffer. Emphasis was placed on personal honour, to do what is necessary and what is right to ensure the survival of all. It was not at all an egoistical or selfish thing to strive for an honourable reputation, nor was it the whole "seek personal glory so you can have songs sung about you" that has been popularised over time. Having an "honourable reputation" simply meant that you could be relied upon, you were honest, true to your word and fair in your chores and dealings (though yes, there are quite a few sagas about Jarls with "honourable reputations". ;) )Really, at the core Asatru is a religion that seeks to uphold community. We value family, friendship and recognise that our social interactions can have a profound effect on others. As a result, it is necessary to conduct oneself in an upright way, not just say "Hey I worship the Norse Gods" and be done with it.

I've always respected people and religions that not only speak as though they are part of a path, but act as though they are too, in an honest and genuine manner. Your path and mine are very similiar in that they require us to actually live in our paths in order to call ourselves part of the faith. This is true religion.

Anyway, this is a bit long. Apologies ... I hope it answered your questions. :)
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Pk_#2
01-16-2009, 06:56 AM
Why Jalil and not Jahil? I think you'z need a name change...

You're quite nice. I hate nice ppl.:skeleton:

Welcome, be good and post your heart out girl.
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Dawud_uk
01-16-2009, 07:03 AM
a very interesting reply, told me less than sheikh wiki who i just consulted about your faith but in some ways so much more!

in islam our 'imaan' (faith if you want a lose translation) is not just in our heart as christians sometimes say, but also in our actions and speech, the inner and the outer should reflect one another.

that doesnt mean everyone is perfect, but a good muslim will at least be trying to make sure everything they believe in they act upon.

understanding different faiths is very important if we are to get along, and the virtues you mention are all things a muslim can relate to totally, and there is a concept taught in islam that every people start has had a prophet sent to them in the past but that he is either rejected or his teachings corrupted over time.

i know in the hindu and greek / roman pagan faiths they have a concept of an original creator god but that this concept gets weakened over history as more gods come along, does Asatru have the same concept or not?
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 07:18 AM
PK_2, the term "Jalill" means "Lady" in another language. I picked without knowledge that it might be construed as another word altogether. :-[

And I'm very sorry to hear that you hate nice people, I'll try to be a little less nice and maybe we can be friends. :)

Dawud_Uk, Sorry, if you want a good source of information you can check out asatru.org... they have links and stuff for reference and they are non-sectarian so pretty safe. I didn't want to include TOO much as I didn't want to bog down my post or seem like I was trying to promote it somehow. 0.o. But I'll be happy to clarify things if necessary.

As for the Creator story, I'm familiar with it, and no Asatru does not have that system. We are hard polytheists, that is, our Gods are all separate entities (versus soft polytheism where all Gods are One) that spring mostly from three families: the Aesir, the war gods, (Asatru means "true to the Aesir" or "true to the Gods), the Vanir, the fertility gods and the Jotun, the giants. There are other families too, other divine beings but they don't play as much in the mythologies. Our Creation story (which I will stress is NOT to be taken in the literal sense) involves Odin, the Allfather, killing an enemy Jotun named Ymir and forming earth out of his remains.

If you'd like, the Völuspá lays out the creation myth, some of the mythology and Ragnarok (the end of the world) in an abridged version: http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/voluspa.html if it would clarify for you. :)

Would you by chance know of any good books that lay out the fundamentals of Islam, that a curious person who just wants to know more about the religion, such as myself, could read?
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Dawud_uk
01-16-2009, 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by Jalill
PK_2, the term "Jalill" means "Lady" in another language. I picked without knowledge that it might be construed as another word altogether. :-[

And I'm very sorry to hear that you hate nice people, I'll try to be a little less nice and maybe we can be friends. :)

Dawud_Uk, Sorry, if you want a good source of information you can check out asatru.org... they have links and stuff for reference and they are non-sectarian so pretty safe. I didn't want to include TOO much as I didn't want to bog down my post or seem like I was trying to promote it somehow. 0.o. But I'll be happy to clarify things if necessary.

As for the Creator story, I'm familiar with it, and no Asatru does not have that system. We are hard polytheists, that is, our Gods are all separate entities (versus soft polytheism where all Gods are One) that spring mostly from three families: the Aesir, the war gods, (Asatru means "true to the Aesir" or "true to the Gods), the Vanir, the fertility gods and the Jotun, the giants. There are other families too, other divine beings but they don't play as much in the mythologies. Our Creation story (which I will stress is NOT to be taken in the literal sense) involves Odin, the Allfather, killing an enemy Jotun named Ymir and forming earth out of his remains.

If you'd like, the Völuspá lays out the creation myth, some of the mythology and Ragnarok (the end of the world) in an abridged version: http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/voluspa.html if it would clarify for you. :)

Would you by chance know of any good books that lay out the fundamentals of Islam, that a curious person who just wants to know more about the religion, such as myself, could read?
i really like Yahya Emerick's "a complete idiots guide to islam" which despite its name is an excellent book.

i see what you mean by hard paganism v soft paganism, and will check out the site, though i notice it uses the anglo saxon term for odin in its site name (i studied history so know a little about former pagan religions in the UK, though stragely enough studied the greek/roman myths more)

if you dont feel this story about the creation is true, what do you feel is true about the creation and why don't you trust this part of your religion?

edit. i assume you believe the concept of the world tree is not literal also or that the world is round?
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 07:59 AM
Oh, no that's not at all what I meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I very thoroughly believe in what is laid down as the Creation story in the Völuspá. It's hard to explain, but ....

Like yours, my path acknowledges too that earth is not the "be all end all" place, there are afterlives, other realms, etc. The Creation story is not meant to be a literal "you are literally standing on Ymir's skull and the walls of your house are his eyelashes" as obviously you aren't, and your walls are stone and wood. It's meant to be a spiritual or metaphysical Creation story. For example, some people have drawn the connection between the spiritual story of Ymir's corpse being turned into earth as a metaphor for "the Big Bang." In both versions of the Beginning, violence resulted in our existence. Of course, 1000 years ago they didn't have the "Big Bang" theory, but the Scandinavians surely witnessed meteor showers (and impacts, as they occur in some Sagas) and other astronomical events, as well as event such as wildfires and lightning storms, so they understood that violence could both destroy as well as create.

And the same goes for Yggdrasil. Earth and this life are portrayed as Midgard, we exist in that realm. It is possible to ascend and descend to the various other realms, Helheim, land of the dead, Asgard, land of the gods, when you die. It is possible to visit the other realms too during life. We have people called spaeworkers, who perform the sacred seidr which is essentially trance work, and accessing the realms through deep meditation.

You'll notice in both instances that it is written nowhere in Asatru that one must take these notions literally as physical creations. They're philosophical and spiritual notions.

I hope that helps. :)
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glo
01-16-2009, 08:05 AM
Welcome to the forum, Jalil.

There was a time when I was very interested in paganism too - although more of the Celtic kind.

I hope you find what you are looking for. :)

Peace
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 08:06 AM
Hey glo, thanks for the welcome. :) I'm really liking the forums so far, there's so much useful information here. I hope to be able to stick around. =D
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glo
01-16-2009, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by Jalill
Hey glo, thanks for the welcome. :) I'm really liking the forums so far, there's so much useful information here. I hope to be able to stick around. =D
Well, I came to 'learn more about Islam' ... and I am still here almost three years later! :D
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Well, I came to 'learn more about Islam' ... and I am still here almost three years later! :D
Oh, you're an inspiration and encouragement. :D Cheers!
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Dawud_uk
01-16-2009, 08:11 AM
ok been reading that site link you sent me, very curious.

it has a very simular concept to what in arabic we call 'fitrah' when it says on the answers about asatru that people have a spiritual need that they fulfil through worship and the incorrect worship if they do not know the correct way.

where i would disagree is that the religion of our ancestors is necessarily correct for us, in the Quran it states that the people who the prophet muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was sent to would also say that should they abandon what their forefathers were upon?

just because someone has been done a particular way for a long time doesnt make it correct you see?
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Dawud_uk
01-16-2009, 08:15 AM
regarding the creation and why i asked...

ok, i see it could be taken as a metaphor for creation, but i am asking who created mankind? who gave us freewill and for what purpose? why are we here? who created the world and universe and everything in it?

in islam we have answers to these questions.
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
regarding the creation and why i asked...

ok, i see it could be taken as a metaphor for creation, but i am asking who created mankind? who gave us freewill and for what purpose? why are we here? who created the world and universe and everything in it?

in islam we have answers to these questions.
Asatru has answers to these questions, too. :)

We venerate our ancestors, as for the most part, we're descended from the Gods themselves. There are stories of the Gods going amongst mankind and mating to help propagate the race. Again, it's the family philosophy ... it plays a large part in our creed. We look to them (ancestors) as examples on how to and not to behave, and what will bring us to be more worthy of the Gods (or less worthy, accordingly). Granted, you are entirely free to choose whether or not you wish to follow the footsteps of your ancestors. Some do, some don't. We don't require that you follow the path, and all are free to come and go (even if your ancestry is not with roots in this path). I personally am very happy with it. :)

Asatruar understand that if something is done incorrectly or wrong (though we do have much less stringent methodologies for our practise) there is an innate sense of dishonour or wrongness, and we say that we've "broken frith." (Frith is a term difficult to describe. It basically describes the unity and harmony we have with the universe. When things are in discord, they are not in frith. And when they are, you are, accordingly.) Though, in all honesty, the feel I've always gotten from Asatru is that it's less important to follow a prescribed set of rituals and ceremony, than it is to uphold the virtues in every aspect possible in life. The Gods don't really tell us what to do and what not to do so much as they present us challenges, indicate what virtuousness is and let us go at is as we will.

As for mankind, humans come about through a creation myth as well that, like the Creation story and Yggdrasil should be seen in a spiritual viewpoint rather than a literal one. Same with the creation of all else. One or more Gods made it, and in the beginning there was nothingness, that which just was, and certain Gods always were ... which is no different from many religions. Here is a good link to the Creation myth in full... http://www.eutopia.no/ymirsbody.html

As for the freewill, well spiritually (at least) we are descended from our Gods, and thus we have many of their traits such as freewill, the ability to make judgements, to grow and act as our fullest. It is considered mankind's natural state, and it is considered highly dishonourable to give up anything that would hinder the ability to be self-reliant or fully functional. In Asatru it is praiseworthy and noble to strive to be as complete a human as possible in ALL aspects of life. To neglect one side or to do anything less would be to not only disrespect the Gods (and thus our lineage and ancestors) but to be less than human.
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 08:42 AM
Granted, you are entirely free to choose whether or not you wish to follow the footsteps of your ancestors. Some do, some don't. We don't require that you follow the path, and all are free to come and go (even if your ancestry is not with roots in this path). I personally am very happy with it.
I actually should add on this that this point is where a lot of divisions and sects in Asatru form. Some believe that only those with roots in the heritage should worship these Gods, some believe that it's open to all. Some believe it's necessary to revert to 11th century lifestyles and reenact, some believe it's better to honour the virtues of adaptation and survival to bring Asatru to the 21st century...
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Dawud_uk
01-16-2009, 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by Jalill
Asatru has answers to these questions, too. :)

We venerate our ancestors, as for the most part, we're descended from the Gods themselves. There are stories of the Gods going amongst mankind and mating to help propagate the race. Again, it's the family philosophy ... it plays a large part in our creed. We look to them (ancestors) as examples on how to and not to behave, and what will bring us to be more worthy of the Gods (or less worthy, accordingly). Granted, you are entirely free to choose whether or not you wish to follow the footsteps of your ancestors. Some do, some don't. We don't require that you follow the path, and all are free to come and go (even if your ancestry is not with roots in this path). I personally am very happy with it. :)

Asatruar understand that if something is done incorrectly or wrong (though we do have much less stringent methodologies for our practise) there is an innate sense of dishonour or wrongness, and we say that we've "broken frith." (Frith is a term difficult to describe. It basically describes the unity and harmony we have with the universe. When things are in discord, they are not in frith. And when they are, you are, accordingly.) Though, in all honesty, the feel I've always gotten from Asatru is that it's less important to follow a prescribed set of rituals and ceremony, than it is to uphold the virtues in every aspect possible in life. The Gods don't really tell us what to do and what not to do so much as they present us challenges, indicate what virtuousness is and let us go at is as we will.

As for mankind, humans come about through a creation myth as well that, like the Creation story and Yggdrasil should be seen in a spiritual viewpoint rather than a literal one. Same with the creation of all else. One or more Gods made it, and in the beginning there was nothingness, that which just was, and certain Gods always were ... which is no different from many religions. Here is a good link to the Creation myth in full... http://www.eutopia.no/ymirsbody.html

As for the freewill, well spiritually (at least) we are descended from our Gods, and thus we have many of their traits such as freewill, the ability to make judgements, to grow and act as our fullest. It is considered mankind's natural state, and it is considered highly dishonourable to give up anything that would hinder the ability to be self-reliant or fully functional. In Asatru it is praiseworthy and noble to strive to be as complete a human as possible in ALL aspects of life. To neglect one side or to do anything less would be to not only disrespect the Gods (and thus our lineage and ancestors) but to be less than human.
ok i have been reading the sites you've posted but there is a problem with one aspect in particular which doesnt make much sense to me.

where it says each region has its own gods and that this set of beliefs is right and correct for them.

this is illogical, it comes down to this, if your religion is correct saying all religions correct, then this statement is incorrect as my religion tells me this statement is incorrect. you see? it is an impossible statement.

my religion states there is only one creator, as do almost all others (we tend to differ from there onwards but fundementally even the hindus accept the concept of one creator), but your's says many creators, this is not possible that both are correct.

i must also admit i dont see how many gods are possible, i understand some of them are creations of other gods but how is this possible? as a god independent of everything else, it is not dependent on others, and if there was more than one creator there would be chaos in the heavens and the earth - much as socrates was executed for stating to the ancient pagan greeks.
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Jalill
01-16-2009, 09:10 AM
Well now, friend, we're not of the same religion, did you expect it all to agree? :) Both of our religions indicate that the other is wrong in more than one aspect, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong, or me right and you wrong. Let's agree to disagree.

As for the polytheism, think of my pantheon as one big family and each of them have different areas of influence (dominions). And like a family, they all rely on each other. For instance, in your family I'm sure you have someone who is a doctor, someone who is good with computers, someone who can cook well ... well, with my Gods it's the same. Each has different areas that they rule over and you invoke the specific god depending on the need. And there were only three creator Gods, and they were brothers. It's not as convoluted or illogical as it seems... :)

I will be going to the library on Saturday to pick up this book you have recommended and I look forward to discussing Islam further with you.
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Dawud_uk
01-16-2009, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Jalill
Well now, friend, we're not of the same religion, did you expect it all to agree? :) Both of our religions indicate that the other is wrong in more than one aspect, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong, or me right and you wrong. Let's agree to disagree.

As for the polytheism, think of my pantheon as one big family and each of them have different areas of influence (dominions). And like a family, they all rely on each other. For instance, in your family I'm sure you have someone who is a doctor, someone who is good with computers, someone who can cook well ... well, with my Gods it's the same. Each has different areas that they rule over and you invoke the specific god depending on the need. And there were only three creator Gods, and they were brothers. It's not as convoluted or illogical as it seems... :)

I will be going to the library on Saturday to pick up this book you have recommended and I look forward to discussing Islam further with you.
i know it is possible to agree to disagree, but usually there is an element of discussion first to see the difference cannot be reconciled or whether one person can be convinced.

if this case one person is stating x and the other y, they both cannot be true so it remains to be seen if the two statements can be reconciled or whether one person can be convinced or not.

regarding each god having their own speciality, i dont see the need, surely if a god is a god he would not be so limited?
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Pk_#2
01-16-2009, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Jalill
PK_2,

And I'm very sorry to hear that you hate nice people, I'll try to be a little less nice and maybe we can be friends. :)
Yay! That's the spirit Jalill:thumbs_up
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glo
01-16-2009, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Pk_#2
Yay! That's the spirit Jalill:thumbs_up
You don't like nice people, Pk????

I also hear that you like to poke people's eyes with carrots ... whatever next?! :D
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Pk_#2
01-16-2009, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by glo
You don't like nice people, Pk????

I also hear that you like to poke people's eyes with carrots ... whatever next?! :D
I've changed my weapon now, the carrot was too sharp! :exhausted



Congratulation dear sister Glo, you are my next victim!! :raging:

*poKe*

Love ya really =P
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Wyatt
01-17-2009, 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Well, I came to 'learn more about Islam' ... and I am still here almost three years later! :D

This seems likely for me as well! I see myself staying here for quite a while. :thumbs_up
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بنــuaeــت
01-19-2009, 07:17 AM
بــكــل حــب وإحــتــرام وشــوق
نــســتــقــبــلك ونــفــرش طــريــقــك بــالــورد
ونــعــطــر حــبــر الــكــلــمــات بــالــمــســك والــعــنــبــر

ونــنــتــظــر الإبــداع مــع نــســمــات الــلــيــل
وســكــونــه

لــتــصــل هــمــســات قــلــمــك إلــى قــلــوبــنــا
وعــقــولــنــا

نــنــتــظــر بــوح قــلــمــك
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