"Dad, I'm Dying" -israeli pigs use boy to practice shooting

[S_87]

GAZA CITY — "Dad, I'm dying."
The words keep echoing in Kamal Awaga's ears, sending jolts of pain into his feeble, wounded body.

These were the last words uttered by his 9-year-old son, Ibrahim, before he ended up as a practicing target for Israeli soldiers.

"They killed my son in cold blood," says the grief-stricken father, still in a state of shock.

Ibrahim joined more than 350 children killed by Israel in its three-week onslaught on the coastal enclave.

But while others fell victim to killer bullets or deadly bombs, Ibrahim's fate was even more tragic.

He became a shooting practice for a squad of Israeli soldiers.

"The Israelis did not show mercy for his innocence," said his tearful father from his bed at the Al-Shefa hospital in Gaza City.

"They had no pity for his tiny body," added the heart-broken father.

A Sunny Day

Nothing in the day prepared the Awaga family for the tragic twist of events that unfolded.

They woke up to a sunny morning after days of being locked in one small room to escape the massive Israeli bombardment.

"Mom, let's have our breakfast out in the garden. I'm tired of staying in this room," the grieved mother recalls Ibrahim's plea.

An hour later, the table was set in the garden and the family was hoping to enjoy rare moments of peace, unaware of the eyes watching them from a distance.

A first missile stole the family's job before another destroyed their house.

"Dad, I am dying," cried Ibrahim to his father who rushed frantically to his side.

"Hurry, let's go," Awaga told his wife and two other children while carrying bleeding Ibrahim.

But even before they could reach the gate, a flood of bullets showered them.

One bullet hit the mother's leg and another hit the father's waist.

Ibrahim's two frightened brothers ran for cover behind the rubbles of their bombed-out house.

Shooting Practice

As the firing died down, the family thought their misery was over. But the Israeli soldiers were not finished yet.

"When the soldiers came closer, I thought they will kill me," said Awaga who faked being dead.

"But they were aiming at my young child," he said choking at the bitter memory.

One soldier came close to Ibrahim's body, turning him by his leg and laughing while another fired his gun to the dead boy's head.

Laughs got louder as they carried the body to a higher place to start their party.

For a whole hour, the father hushed his cries of pain as he watched the Israeli soldiers compete in sniping on his dead son's body.

"They were using his bullet-ridden, bleeding body as a shooting practice.

"With each bullet, they were humming with words I could not figure out, but it sounded full of rapture. It was as if they were celebrating."

When they finally had enough "practicing," the Israelis took their guns and left the house.

Four complete days passed before emergency doctors were able to find their way to the family and rush them to hospital.

"What did my son do to deserve that?" Awaga asks, shaking his head in disbelief.

"The Israelis killed my kid, not once or twice but a thousand times."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout

[Re.TiReD]

Oh SubhanAllah :cry:

[nightingale]

:cry: I am not even going to read it, the title breaks my heart.

[Nablus]

The Israelis did not show mercy for his innocence," said his tearful father from his bed at the Al-Shefa hospital in Gaza City.

"They had no pity for his tiny body," added the heart-broken father.

The world couldnt describe The satanic zionism and thisis the real faceof Israel .

May Allah give us Mercy

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[IbnAbdulHakim]

may ALlah grant the parents patience and that little boy al-firdaus al-'ala.


subhanAllaah....

[nadia85]

sooo sad

[*Yasmin*]

may ALlah grant the parents patience and that little boy al-firdaus al-'ala.


subhanAllaah....

ameeeen

"But they were aiming at my young child," he said choking at the bitter memory

لا حول ولا قوة الا بالله

[Danah]

what else we expect from the pigs who used to kill there prophets?
do we think that they will hold back with normal people :raging::raging::raging:

لعنة الله عليهم واحد تلو الآخر


May allah burn them in the hellfire.............Ameen ya allah

[Maimunah]

subhanalah!

how can ppl be so evil?

wasalaam

[Pk_#2]

SubhanAllaah, :'( imsad

..

Zionism is worse than Nazism a billion times over!

[simplicity786]

Astagfirallah thats so sad, May Allah give his family sabr and justice, its so evil.. please remember the palestinians in your duas now more than ever and donate to charities as much as you can.. please take part in the demonstrations around the world.. :cry:

if you see someone/something being wronged, change it with your hands, if you can not then change it with your mouth, if you are not able to do that then change it with your heart.

we can change it with our hands by donating, with our mouth by protesting and more than all with our hearts through dua..

please dont forget the palestinians..

[sevgi]

I can't stop crying.

[sister herb]

:sl:

As zionist foreign minister Livni has repeated: we don't target civilians, just only Hamas.

imsad

Every Palestinians are Hamas for her as like as every muslims.

[Yanal]

May not happen to any other son or daughter. I onlyread 25% of the article and stopped. It really hurts me because while we sleep,eat,spend our money for fine riches, and walk freely without being scared. Those are the same opposite things the kids and families are doing at Gaza.

[piXie]

:sl:

These barbarians don't follow Gods law and neither do they follow International law. I wonder where the Israeli supporters are now?

Aameen to the du'aas! imsad

[noorseeker]

People are like animals these days, no their worser

[Civilsed]

may ALlah grant the parents patience and that little boy al-firdaus al-'ala.


subhanAllaah....

Ameen ya rab alalimeen :cry:

[Silver]

So sad but I'm not surprised. The Israelis have committed atrocities like that when they were in Lebanon...they regard others as inferior to them, they believe it's ok to kill non-jews because they don't deserve to live :(

[Najm]

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

SubhaanAllah!! :cry:

These people are soo low!! imsad

May Allah provide the boy with the highest places in jannah! Allahumma Ameen

FiAmaaniAllah

[Donia]

may ALlah grant the parents patience and that little boy al-firdaus al-'ala.


subhanAllaah....

Ameen.

SubhanAllah.

There's no words for those actions. :cry:

[Whatsthepoint]

Hmmmmmm.^o)

[Danah]

sorry, but what is the meaning of this

Hmmmmmm.^o)

[al Amaanah]

laa ilaha illa Allah :cry: may Allah grant them all sabr

[Banu_Hashim]

what else we expect from the pigs who used to kill there prophets?
do we think that they will hold back with normal people :raging::raging::raging:

لعنة الله عليهم واحد تلو الآخر


May allah burn them in the hellfire.............Ameen ya allah

Exactly. Bani Isra'il have a long history in disobeying the commands of Allah, and deviating from the straight path, from the time of Musa (AS). May Allah show his wrath upon them.

[Whatsthepoint]

sorry, but what is the meaning of this

I'm doubting the veracity of the news. Though soldiers can do awful things.

[Snowflake]

I hope they die like thirsty dogs with their tongues hanging out begging for mercy and none comes. I wish them agonizing and prolonged deaths so that one by one they remember their uncountable torturous acts and know the time to account for has begun. Alhumdulillah such will burn in Hell forever, while the tortured will live in eternal bliss forever in Paradise. Allahu Akbar!

Allahumma ameen.

[Danah]

I'm doubting the veracity of the news. Though soldiers can do awful things.

:mmokay:

soldiers can do awful things? they already doing awful things........this is just what media can reach, no one know what they do behind scenes

[جوري]

The problem really is that fact that you perceive them as 'people' belonging to the 'human race' which naturally comes with this endogenous nature called 'humanity' I'd not bestow that title upon them!

:w:

[Izyan]

Nice propoganda piece. I would like to see this confirmed by a few more sources.

[جوري]

propaganda?

Israeli minister vows Palestinian 'holocaust'
By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
Last Updated: 2:09AM GMT 01 Mar 2008

Relatives of a Palestinian boy killed in an Israeli rocket attack


A senior Israeli politician provoked controversy today when he warned that Palestinians firing rockets from Gaza would be punished with a "bigger holocaust" from Israeli armed forces.
The use of the Hebrew word for holocaust, "shoah", tends to be used exclusively in Israel to describe the Nazi persecution of Jews.

Palestinian activists routinely claim to be suffering a "shoah" at the hands of Israel, but the Jewish state normally denies any moral equivalence between the suffering of Palestinians today and European jewry under the Nazis.

Matan Vilnai, deputy defence minister, broke that taboo when he used the term "shoah" during interview on Army Radio.
"The more qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," he said.
His use of the term reflects the febrile atmosphere in Israel where public opinion demands the government does something decisive to stop the daily barrage of rockets fired from Gaza over the border into Israel.
The issue dominates the media, sparking angry protests from Israelis who live within rocket range of Gaza and prompting an intense national debate about whether to negotiate with the Hamas authorities in Gaza.
Israel has lost eleven of its citizens to qassam strikes since the first one was launched in 2003. Many hundreds of Palestinians, mostly militants but civilians as well, have been killed in retaliatory Israeli attacks.
The Israeli government moved quickly to try to defuse the impact of Mr Vilnai's use of the sensitive term. His office put out a statement later trying to water down the meaning of the word.
"Mr. Vilnai was meaning 'disaster'," the statement said. "He did not mean to make any allusion to the genocide."
The foreign ministry also got involved seeking to downplay the linguistic faux pas.
"Deputy Defence Minister Matan Vilnai used the Hebrew phrase that included the term 'shoah' in the sense of a disaster or a catastrophe, and not in the sense of a holocaust," Arye Mekel, Israel's foreign ministry spokesman, said.
This was not enough to placate Palestinians who sought to exploit the use of the word.
"We are facing new Nazis who want to kill and burn the Palestinian people," Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman, said.
The tit-for-tat exchanges between militants firing rockets from Gaza and the Israeli armed forces trying to hit them and their commanders continued, with the Palestinian death toll reaching 31 since Wednesday. One Israeli has been killed in that period.
Tens of thousands of Gazans took to the streets to protest the worsening violence on Friday.
"Gaza today faces a real war, a crazy war led by the enemy against our people," Ismail Haniyeh, one of the most senior Hamas leaders, told a crowd gathered outside the mosque where he attended weekly prayers.
Israel has tried ground offensives into Gaza before to silence the rocket threat but they have failed to deal with the problem once and for all.
Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, has so far been wary of launching a ground offensive, which could incur heavy casualties and derail US-backed peace talks with Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian national authority.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...aust'.html



let me tell the respected members on board, there is nothing in my mind worst than Zionist pigs, than some of the pigs you allow to be members of this forum!

:w:

[KittyKat]

Subhanallah! :heated:

Why must they do this? Do they not have sons of their own? How could anyone...do this?

:enough!:

[Izyan]

propaganda?

Israeli minister vows Palestinian 'holocaust'
By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
Last Updated: 2:09AM GMT 01 Mar 2008

Relatives of a Palestinian boy killed in an Israeli rocket attack


A senior Israeli politician provoked controversy today when he warned that Palestinians firing rockets from Gaza would be punished with a "bigger holocaust" from Israeli armed forces.
The use of the Hebrew word for holocaust, "shoah", tends to be used exclusively in Israel to describe the Nazi persecution of Jews.

Palestinian activists routinely claim to be suffering a "shoah" at the hands of Israel, but the Jewish state normally denies any moral equivalence between the suffering of Palestinians today and European jewry under the Nazis.

Matan Vilnai, deputy defence minister, broke that taboo when he used the term "shoah" during interview on Army Radio.
"The more qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," he said.
His use of the term reflects the febrile atmosphere in Israel where public opinion demands the government does something decisive to stop the daily barrage of rockets fired from Gaza over the border into Israel.
The issue dominates the media, sparking angry protests from Israelis who live within rocket range of Gaza and prompting an intense national debate about whether to negotiate with the Hamas authorities in Gaza.
Israel has lost eleven of its citizens to qassam strikes since the first one was launched in 2003. Many hundreds of Palestinians, mostly militants but civilians as well, have been killed in retaliatory Israeli attacks.
The Israeli government moved quickly to try to defuse the impact of Mr Vilnai's use of the sensitive term. His office put out a statement later trying to water down the meaning of the word.
"Mr. Vilnai was meaning 'disaster'," the statement said. "He did not mean to make any allusion to the genocide."
The foreign ministry also got involved seeking to downplay the linguistic faux pas.
"Deputy Defence Minister Matan Vilnai used the Hebrew phrase that included the term 'shoah' in the sense of a disaster or a catastrophe, and not in the sense of a holocaust," Arye Mekel, Israel's foreign ministry spokesman, said.
This was not enough to placate Palestinians who sought to exploit the use of the word.
"We are facing new Nazis who want to kill and burn the Palestinian people," Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman, said.
The tit-for-tat exchanges between militants firing rockets from Gaza and the Israeli armed forces trying to hit them and their commanders continued, with the Palestinian death toll reaching 31 since Wednesday. One Israeli has been killed in that period.
Tens of thousands of Gazans took to the streets to protest the worsening violence on Friday.
"Gaza today faces a real war, a crazy war led by the enemy against our people," Ismail Haniyeh, one of the most senior Hamas leaders, told a crowd gathered outside the mosque where he attended weekly prayers.
Israel has tried ground offensives into Gaza before to silence the rocket threat but they have failed to deal with the problem once and for all.
Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, has so far been wary of launching a ground offensive, which could incur heavy casualties and derail US-backed peace talks with Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian national authority.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...aust'.html



let me tell the respected members on board, there is nothing in my mind worst than Zionist pigs, than some of the pigs you allow to be members of this forum!

:w:

Yes propoganda do you need the definition? Where are your sources to validate the army used that boy as target practice? See you're the master at diversion and deflection. I'm sorry child I'm not one to fall for those traps.

[chacha_jalebi]

israel is jus countin its days now inshallah, it has opressed enough, soon it shall face its fate, which all corrupt oppressors do inshallah

[chacha_jalebi]

Nice propoganda piece. I would like to see this confirmed by a few more sources.

its comments like this, which show we still have many blind people who are blind from the inside,

well can i see authentic news sources sayin that hamas is firin rockets? because i dont believe in the bbc/cnn/sky/

[جوري]

Yes propoganda do you need the definition? Where are your sources to validate the army used that boy as target practice? See you're the master at diversion and deflection. I'm sorry child I'm not one to fall for those traps.

Do you need a definition for buzz off turd bag? No one here is awaiting your validation of the events taking place, much of the media is being kept out so there to begin with, we need no more a source than the SOB avowing a holocaust worst than they have allegedly suffered. You have a million picture, you'll want a million and one.. Simply because you are an unfeeling turd, and frankly there is nothing that can be done of that, perhaps short of termination of your account, since your mere presence here causes the forum to reek. and don't call me child or be sorry, I want nothing to do with you-- traitor and hypocrite!

[جوري]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055574.html

The IDF has no mercy for the children in Gaza nursery schools - Haaretz - Israel News

[جوري]

Media Tags are no longer supported

[KittyKat]

My heart cries.

I wish they would show images like that on TV here in the states, then perhaps everyone would understand the realities of war. It's hard to put a face to the words without pictures. This certainly puts a face on it.

May Allah receive those children and may they only know paradise. Ameen.

May the dogs that did this to the children pay for their crimes.

I am so saddened.

[جوري]

[And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision.] - 3, 169.

When Jaabir's (RAA) father was martyred on the day of Uhud, he sat over his slain body and uncovered the sheet from his face and weeped. He narrates, "The Companions forbade me of my excessive weeping, but Rasul Allah did not say anything. He then said, `Do not cry for him, for verily the angels shaded him with their wings until (his soul) was raised to the heavens.'" - Tafseer ibn Katheer and Zaad Al-Ma'aad, 6/p.33.


Those children are far better than all of us.. even if there were peace, there is nothing for them in those refugee camps, what is with Allah swt is far better than all the so-called good of this earth!

so don't weep for them, and let it be a wake up call to this umma insha'Allah it will bring unity instead of division!

:w:

[aadil77]

I wouldn't doubt anything like this, coming from cowardly sick *******s who fear that these children will grow up to fight against them

[Donia]

I do not want to look at the pictures. I can only imagine and it's heartbreaking even without looking. :cry:

I'm not sure why people would doubt these things are happening. Of course we can never be sure that anything has 100% taken place unless we witness it with our own eyes.
Stuff like this happens when all this violence is going on... and I'm sure even worse occurs.

And Allah knows best.

[Donia]

[INDENT] [And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision.] - 3, 169.



Those children are far better than all of us.. even if there were peace, there is nothing for them in those refugee camps, what is with Allah swt is far better than all the so-called good of this earth!



:w:

JazakAllah for the first quote.
I agree with you sister. It is still sad but I'm sure that is a comfort for their parents and us as well.

[Wyatt]

It's a mad world. I can't even imagine.

[Edit: I agree with everyone else. Someone needs to ban Izyan.]

[جوري]

let's debunk the turd one by one.. or are their own stations also lying?

Jenin 'massacre evidence growing'

Israeli tanks have begun to pull out


A British forensic expert who has gained access to the West Bank city of Jenin says evidence points to a massacre by Israeli forces. Prof Derrick Pounder, who is part of an Amnesty International team granted access to Jenin, said he has seen bodies lying in the streets and received eyewitness accounts of civilian deaths.
The Dundee University expert said the Amnesty investigation has only just begun but Palestinian claims of a massacre were gaining foundation as the team continued its analysis.

Derrick Pounder: Evidence of a massacre


He said: "The truth will come out, as it has come out in Bosnia and Kosovo, as it has in other places where we've had these kinds of allegations.
"I must say that the evidence before us at the moment doesn't lead us to believe that the allegations are anything other than truthful and that therefore there are large numbers of civilian dead underneath these bulldozed and bombed ruins that we see."
The professor said recovering the bodies would be difficult because many buildings collapsed during bombardment.
He said: "We know there are families who were there and killed and buried.
"We were on the ruins yesterday and two elderly men came forward, each of them pointed to where their houses had been and one of them told us that 10 members of his family were buried under the rubble."
'Beyond belief'
He said post mortems on two bodies had "given cause for suspicion" and there was "extensive damage" to Jenin.
An area of the town the size of several football pitches has been flattened.
Prof Pounder was speaking as Israeli forces began to pull out of Jenin and the town of Nablus.
A United Nations special envoy described the the devastation as "horrific beyond belief".
Terje Roed-Larsen, who visited the Jenin refugee camp on Thursday, criticised Israel for not allowing rescue teams in after the battle with Palestinian gunmen.
Israeli officials reversed a ban on the Amnesty team entering the Jenin refugee camp and government hospital on Wednesday.
Amnesty had considered legal action against the Israeli Government over the ban.
Israel 'fighting for its life'
Israeli forces moved into the Jenin camp on 3 April, saying it was a hotbed of Palestinian militancy and declaring it a closed military zone.
Zalmon Shoval, an adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, defended Israel's actions, saying it was fighting for its life.
"Mr Larsen has no business whatsoever to tell us what is right or wrong," he told the BBC.
Palestinians claim hundreds of bodies are buried beneath the rubble, but Mr Shoval said only about 65 bodies had been recovered, of which five were civilians.
Israel's large-scale military operations across the West Bank were launched following a spate of deadly Palestinian suicide bombings in Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1937048.stm

[جوري]

Sabra and Shatila 20 years on

Um Ahmad sitting in the room where five of her children died

By Martin Asser
BBC News Online

There's another significant anniversary this week, but not one that's attracted the sort of attention the 11 September commemorations have.
On 16 September 1982, under the watchful eye of their Israeli allies who had encircled the area, Lebanese Christian militiamen entered Beirut's Sabra and Shatila refugee camps bent on revenge for the assassination of their leader Bashir Gemayel.

Refugee camps like Shatila still lack the most basic services

There followed a three-day orgy of rape and slaughter that left hundreds, possibly thousands, of innocent civilians dead in what is considered the bloodiest single incident of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
If Americans approached the 11 September anniversary with trepidation, many residents of Shatila camp, and its more run-down neighbour Sabra, have been dreading the milestone on Monday which marks two decades of pain and the futile search for justice.
Take Um Ahmad, who still lives in the same house where she lost her husband, four sons and a daughter when a thick-set militiaman carrying an assault rifle bundled everyone into one room of their hovel and opened fire.
Only she and her daughter Suad survived the carnage, their survival aided by the fact of their being hidden under the broken remains of their loved-ones. Another daughter, Nuhad, escaped by hiding in a cupboard in the kitchen.
Opening wounds
"I'd rather not talk about what happened," Um Ahmad says as she bids us sit down in the room where her family perished. "What's the point of opening old wounds?"
But talk she does, despite herself, telling us how the events unfolded and recalling each of her four sons by name, Nizar, Shadi, Farid and Nidal (whom they called Bassam because of his bright smiling appearance).

A terrible fate awaited the boys in this family photo

I learn that, for many years, the survivors did not set foot in the room where the killings took place. But this year they have decided to open it up, the only sign of its tragic history a large funereal-looking banner in Arabic over the door which says: "There is no god but God".
When I ask if she has a photograph of her boys, Um Ahmad begins rummaging deep inside a cupboard where she produces a framed colour picture of three sweet-looking kids. The youngest, barely out of nappies, had three bullets drilled into his head, she says.
Where did Um Ahmad come from in Palestine, I ask, wanting to change the subject.
"Safad, on the border with Lebanon," she says, a pale smile on her face for the only time during my visit.
"I was five years old in 1948 when we left. I can still remember it, like a dream," she adds.
Failed prosecution
Every year since 1982 has been a bad year for Um Ahmad, but 2002 has been among the worst.

Residents of the camps remain haunted by 1982

In 2001 lawyers representing her and two dozen other victims' relatives attempted to have Ariel Sharon (Israel's defence minister at the time, now prime minister) tried for the massacre under Belgian legislation, which grants its courts "universal jurisdiction" for war crimes.
There had been great enthusiasm about the case in the camps. Mr Sharon, after all, had already been found to bear "personal responsibility" in the massacres by an Israeli commission of inquiry (which concluded he shouldn't hold public office again).
But the relatives' hopes were dashed again in June 2002, when the Belgian judges ruled that the case was inadmissible.
The fact that Mr Sharon had got off on a technicality (thanks to his absence from Belgium) is of little comfort to people who have spent every day of the last 20 years living with the consequences of the massacres.
In fact, many in Shatila rounded on the lawyers for enlisting them in an exercise that, in the end, had only - to paraphrase Um Ahmad - "opened the old wounds again".
Nor was there any satisfaction in the camps that the man who had led the killers, Elie Hobeika, himself met a violent end this year. Death in a car bomb followed his announcement that he would testify against Mr Sharon in Belgium.
Anniversary plans
During my visit to Shatila few people knew how they were going to spend the anniversary.

This is the only monument to the victims of 9/16

It will certainly be a far cry from the ceremonies in New York and Washington, where American leaders told the world that its pre-eminent military power was going to ensure that justice for the victims would triumph over evil whatever the cost.
The Palestinian survivors of the 1982 massacres will probably gather for speeches at the place where their loved-ones were buried en masse - a dusty vacant lot marked by a pathetic temporary monument of breezeblocks.
But there will be no internationally-observed minute's silence for the innocent victims of Sabra and Shatila, or global news coverage about the survivors and their miserable existence at the scene of this evil crime.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2255902.stm

[جوري]

Tuesday, 30 April, 2002, 11:59 GMT 12:59 UK Israel blocks UN Jenin mission

Israel says the UN mission is biased against it


The Israeli cabinet has for the time being decided against allowing a United Nations' fact-finding team to visit the Palestinian refugee camp of Jenin. It is the third time Israel has delayed accepting the team since the UN decided to send the mission on 19 April.

As long as [Israeli] conditions have not been met there is no possibility to start the inquiry

Israeli Government
The team is due to look into what happened in Jenin during fierce fighting between Israeli troops and Palestinian militants earlier this month.
Israel continued its operation against militants in the West Bank on Tuesday, sending troops and tanks into two villages, while forces began withdrawing from Hebron.
After cabinet discussions on Tuesday morning, the government said concerns regarding the UN mission still needed to be addressed.
"Israel raised a number of issues with the United Nations that are vital for conducting a fair inquiry.
"As long as these conditions have not been met there is no possibility to start the inquiry," a statement said.
Prosecution fears
The BBC's Jennifer Glasse in Jerusalem says Israel is concerned the fact-finding team will issue opinions that could be the basis for future legal action.

Israel wants its soldiers to be immune from prosecution



It wants the right to decide which soldiers testify to the mission and is seeking assurances they will be immune from prosecution.
Palestinian officials denounced Israel's decision, saying the UN should impose sanctions on the Jewish state.
"The decision, in itself, is a war crime against the Palestinian people and confirms that massacres have been perpetrated at Jenin camp," said Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo.
Palestinians claim hundreds of civilians were killed in the camp; Israel denies the charge, insisting about 50 Palestinians - mainly militants - died in nine days of fighting.
West Bank raid
In continuing violence, Israeli forces moved into the villages of Shawarwa, near Bethlehem, and Silat al-Harthiyeh, near Jenin, on Tuesday morning.

The Israeli army said it had arrested six Palestinians in Shawarwa before pulling out.
Palestinian sources said nine Palestinians were detained in Shawarwa and four in Silat al-Harthiyeh.
In Hebron, Israeli tanks and troops began withdrawing from the Palestinian section of the divided city, a day after moving in.
Earlier, tanks surrounded al-Ahli Hospital in Hebron while soldiers searched for wanted Palestinians believed to be hiding inside, the army said.
The army said it went into Hebron on Monday to crush the "terror infrastructure" in the city after Palestinian militants killed four Israelis in a nearby Jewish settlement.
Siege progress
There were signs of progress towards ending Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's isolation on Tuesday as UK, US and Palestinian officials were to hold talks on the fate of six Palestinians wanted by Israel.

The convicted Palestinians will be moved to Jericho



Israel has said it will lift its month-long blockade of Mr Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah if the men are guarded by foreign wardens in a Palestinian prison.
Four of the six men have been convicted by a Palestinian court of the killing of Israeli Tourism Minister Rehavam Zeevi and sentenced to long jail terms.
Transfer deal
Discussions are focusing on transferring the men - who are inside the compound with Mr Arafat - to a prison near the Palestinian city of Jericho.
Israeli Government officials have suggested that an understanding was reached that if Israel agreed to a deal to free Mr Arafat, the US would support Israel in its stand-off with the UN over Jenin.
In Bethlehem, a fresh round of talks between Israeli and Palestinian officials was taking place to try to end the month-long siege of the Church of the Nativity.

Click here for Nativity siege timeline
The Vatican said on Tuesday it was sending a high-ranking envoy to Jerusalem to try to resolve the dispute over the fate of about 200 Palestinians, including 30 armed militants, sheltering inside the church.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1959313.stm

[جوري]

WEST BANK MASSACRE; Hebron Mourners Predict Bloodshed





By JOEL GREENBERG,
Published: March 2, 1994
Sitting in long, silent rows, the grieving men listened somberly as the words of Sheik Taysir Bayud al-Tamimi, the chief Muslim judge of Hebron, echoed through the bare meeting hall today.
"This is a crime of historic proportions," he told about 100 relatives and friends of the Muslim worshipers gunned down by a Jewish settler on Friday at a mosque in the Cave of the Patriarchs shrine here, known to Muslims as al-Haram al-Ibrahimi.
"The Crusaders killed 70,000 Muslims, but it wasn't as terrible as this," Sheik Tamimi. "There has never been such a crime. We must fight to liberate our country. The peace negotiations must stop." More Violence Predicted
The judge spoke for many in Hebron who, beyond their shock at the the massacre on Friday, were horrified that the carnage had occurred in a mosque, inside what they consider one of the holiest places of Islam. They predicted that the killing would open a new chapter of violence in the history of their city.
The hall where the sheik spoke, usually used for family celebrations of the prominent Natsheh clan, today was converted into a house of mourning for family members to receive condolence calls. Despite an army-imposed curfew, a steady stream of visitors arrived.
Anger radiated from the walls, which were covered with handmade signs calling for revenge.
"We will kill every last Jew until not a single one of them remains on the face of our land," one sign said.
"God bless those who are martyred resisting the Jews," said another.
The slogans reflected the rage that has welled up here since Friday, uniting mainstream and militant Palestinians in the kind of declarations of undying enmity usually made only by the militants. Some Preparing to Act
While it is unclear whether the fighting words will turn into deeds, there were signs that some Palestinians were preparing to act.
Young men passed out leaflets of the militant Islamic group Hamas declaring "a state of emergency" and urging Palestinian armed groups to "make speedy military plans to strike at Zionist targets, the occupation troops and the settler herds."
To relatives of the dead and those who came to comfort them, the mass killing on Friday was resounding proof that Jews and Arabs could never live together in peace in this ancient city. About 400 Jewish settlers are wedged in among 70,000 Palestinians in Hebron, and 5,000 more Jews live in the adjacent settlement of Qiryat Arba.
"This is the beginning of a holy war," said Jibrin Natsheh, 48, whose older brother, Jamil, was killed in the massacre. "This is not the first killing, and it won't be the last. As long as there are settlements, this will continue. We will never get along with the Jews."
Mr. Natsheh said his brother had been a frequent target of assaults by settlers because he had been the prayer caller at the Cave of the Patriarchs mosque, chanting the summons to worship five times a day over loudspeakers. In the attack on Friday, while he was in a row of tightly packed worshipers, "he was hit by 10 bullets, from the abdomen to his head," Mr. Natsheh said. "His face was unrecognizable." Incident Before the Massacre
Some men said they had sensed that trouble was brewing on the night before the massacre, during an altercation at the cave with Jewish settlers praying just outside the mosque.
Versions of what happened that night differ widely.
Settlers say they were the victims, taunted by Arabs who called for a slaughter of Jews. But Arab men said today that the settlers were the provocateurs. They defiled the mosque, the men said, by hurling in shoes that worshipers had taken off outside as a sign of respect. The Arabs said the settlers had also blocked mosque exits during their own prayers, forcing the Muslims to wait three hours before they could leave. The Arabs said that when they protested, the settlers warned ominously: "Wait and see what happens tomorrow."
Abdel Halik Abdel Mutalib, who lost a nephew in the massacre, said the killing was a result of the accord reached in September between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization. The secretary of the Islamic Benevolent Society in Hebron, he returned in December from Lebanon, where he was deported at the end of 1992 with some 400 Palestinians accused of being Islamic militants after a series of fatal attacks on Israelis. 'This Has Led to the Crime'
"The accord allows Israel to keep its settlements in the occupied territories and to defend them, and this has led to the crime," Mr. Abdel Mutalib said. "At any time a settler can say he's crazy, open fire in Hebron and kill more people."
Khalil Natsheh, another member of the large clan, who studied for six years in the United States, said the massacre had left him feeling vulnerable. "I feel no different sleeping in my house than in a tent," he said. "I might be attacked at any moment by settlers. They did it in a mosque, and they can do in next time in the marketplace or in a hospital."
Although his imprisoned brother was freed today as part of an Israeli release of 596 Palestinians, Mr. Natsheh said the massacre had left him unmoved by the good-will gesture.
"My brother had two weeks left in his term," he said. "Am I happy now? I'm not happy. It makes no difference to me after this tragedy."



http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all


who has the history of terrorism and fabrications and obstruction of Justice?

[Pk_#2]

Israeli's burn children:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuecadn8vMY

=( ='(

[Danah]

Israeli's burn children:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE-sK8pjPAc

=( ='(

OMG.......that is awful:cry::cry::cry:

that made me cried hardly :cry::cry::cry::cry:

What are those heartless scum???? cant someone stopped them????

Ya Allah you are witness this........:cry::cry::cry:

[Najm]

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

SubhaanAllah!! :cry:

The pictures make me imsad i just cant watch, and all these stories +o(

This is soo hard to take!!

FiAmaaniAllah

[alcurad]

وَقَضَيْنَا إِلَى بَنِي إسْرائِيلَ فِي الْكِتَابِ لَتُفْسِدُنَّ فِي الأَرْضِ مَرَّتَيْنِ وَلَتَعْلُنَّ عُلُوّاً كَبِيراً . فَإِذَا جَاءَ وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَاداً لَنَا أُولِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُوا خِلالَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْداً مَفْعُولاً. ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَا لَكُمْ الْكَرَّةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَمْدَدْنَاكُمْ بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ أَكْثَرَ نَفِيراً . إِنْ أَحْسَنتُمْ أَحْسَنتُمْ لأَنفُسِكُمْ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا فَإِذَا جَاءَ وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ لِيَسُوءُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُوا الْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَلِيُتَبِّرُوا مَا عَلَوْا تَتْبِيراً . عَسَى رَبُّكُمْ أَنْ يَرْحَمَكُمْ وَإِنْ عُدْتُمْ عُدْنَا وَجَعَلْنَا جَهَنَّمَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ حَصِيراً .

قال رسول الله –صلى الله عليه وسلم- :لاتزال طائفة من أمتي على الحق ظاهرين على من ناوأهم وهم كالإناء بين الأكلة، حتى يأتي أمر الله وهم كذلك قلنا : يا رسول الله، وأين هم؟ قال : بأكناف بيت المقدس

[~Taalibah~]

Merciless brutes! imsad
May Allah Ta'aala aid them and grant that boy the highest stages in jannat Insha'Allah.

[Najm]

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Allah says:

"Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They were afflicted with severe poverty and ailments and were so shaken that even the Messenger and those who believed along with him said: 'When (will come) the help of Allah?' Yes! Certainly, the help of Allah is near!"
[2:214]


"If a wound (and killing) has touched you, be sure a similar wound (and killing) has touched the others. And so are the days (good and not so good), We give to men by turns, that Allâh may test those who believe, and that He may take martyrs from among you. And Allâh likes not the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong¬doers). And that Allâh may test (or purify) the believers (from sins) and destroy the disbelievers. Do you think that you will enter Paradise before Allâh tests those of you who fought (in His Cause) and tests those who are the patient?
[3:140-142]

Let this be a wake up call for all of Us to unite, Make this Ummnah as one!!

May Allah make us be patient through theses trials, lets us place our complete trust in Allah(Subhaana WaTaala), May Allah purify us from our sins. May Allah destroy the disbelievers. Allahumma Ameen, Thumma Ameen. :cry:

FiAmaaniAllah

[جوري]

وَقَضَيْنَا إِلَى بَنِي إسْرائِيلَ فِي الْكِتَابِ لَتُفْسِدُنَّ فِي الأَرْضِ مَرَّتَيْنِ وَلَتَعْلُنَّ عُلُوّاً كَبِيراً . فَإِذَا جَاءَ وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَاداً لَنَا أُولِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُوا خِلالَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْداً مَفْعُولاً. ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَا لَكُمْ الْكَرَّةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَمْدَدْنَاكُمْ بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ أَكْثَرَ نَفِيراً . إِنْ أَحْسَنتُمْ أَحْسَنتُمْ لأَنفُسِكُمْ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا فَإِذَا جَاءَ وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ لِيَسُوءُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُوا الْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَلِيُتَبِّرُوا مَا عَلَوْا تَتْبِيراً . عَسَى رَبُّكُمْ أَنْ يَرْحَمَكُمْ وَإِنْ عُدْتُمْ عُدْنَا وَجَعَلْنَا جَهَنَّمَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ حَصِيراً .

قال رسول الله –صلى الله عليه وسلم- :لاتزال طائفة من أمتي على الحق ظاهرين على من ناوأهم وهم كالإناء بين الأكلة، حتى يأتي أمر الله وهم كذلك قلنا : يا رسول الله، وأين هم؟ قال : بأكناف بيت المقدس

There is a reason they will receive the punishment they will, insha'Allah this will mark their brutal end.. iwalad kalb akhwan alqarada wal khanzeer.. I feel such rage in me such rage..

do you think they'll show the charred and seared children on the ten o'clock news? of course not!

[alcurad]

their end is coming. the grand IDF goes on killing women and children, bombing schools and hospital, the moment they faced real resistance, as in Lebanon 2006, see what happened.
striking weaker foes-not to mention children and the elderly all the time is definitely going to weaken you, the advantage they have is in the weak enemy's they've had up 'till now, and aid they receive from the US and Germany perhaps, the pali's lack weapons only.

and from the reactions worldwide, it appears some world leaders care about the arabs more than the arab 'leaders' themselves do. their end will come before the Zionists, their ineptitude in protecting their own is dancing naked for all to see, especially since Hamas cleansed Gaza.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:
@ OP subhanallah! although i cant say that im all that surprised. meh, what do you expect from heartless people *shrugs shoulder*

sorry, but what is the meaning of this

he dosnt have one! he just cant stand the fact that his precious Israeli state has done something wrong!

The problem really is that fact that you perceive them as 'people' belonging to the 'human race' which naturally comes with this endogenous nature called 'humanity' I'd not bestow that title upon them!

:w:

;D :p

[Danah]

r*
he dosnt have one! he just cant stand the fact that his precious Israeli state has done something wrong!

May he need to go there and stake his life for 24 hours if not less and see what kind of pigs they are....I think doing a practical study there is the best to make sure :mmokay:....but he gonna put in his mind that they might burn him a long with people there

[Danah]

Israeli's burn children:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE-sK8pjPAc

=( ='(

I just checked now that video, youtube removed it........they dont want the world to see what Israel is doing to children :raging::raging::raging:

[Chuck]

I just checked now that video, youtube removed it........they dont want the world to see what Israel is doing to children :raging::raging::raging:

photo was too graphic, should have been put with age verification.

[Whatsthepoint]

:sl:
he dosnt have one! he just cant stand the fact that his precious Israeli state has done something wrong!

Israel has done many mistakes, some of which kindly pointed out by our beloved sister Skye. What I'm saying is I'm not willing to call anyone a heartless pig based on a completely unverified news article.

[Whatsthepoint]

its comments like this, which show we still have many blind people who are blind from the inside,

well can i see authentic news sources sayin that hamas is firin rockets? because i dont believe in the bbc/cnn/sky/

Say Israel is firing rockets on its citizens... Why do you think they'd keep the death toll at 3 when the whole world is accusing them of disproportionality?

[sister herb]

Israel has done many mistakes,

:sl:

You are right; they last mistake was attack to Gaza. They maybe were thinking to destroy Hamas power but they made it more powerfull and popular. So: Thanks to idiot zionists!

:bump1:

[Whatsthepoint]

:sl:

You are right; they last mistake was attack to Gaza. They maybe were thinking to destroy Hamas power but they made it more powerfull and popular. So: Thanks to idiot zionists!

:bump1:

http://up1.m5zn.com/thumb/2009/1/16/...7dwcb5.gif/gif

I agree completely.
How will a blindfolded Palestinian boy who's lost his entire family in an air strike ever want to have peace with Israel?

[sirajstc]

subhana allah :(

[Whatsthepoint]

However Israel itself is a great example how history can be forgotten for the greater good. 60 years ago, over 6 million of its people died in its concentration camps yet today Germany and Israel are great allies and even friends.

[sister herb]

:sl:

Now zionists are doing what Hitler didn´t to the bitter end, massacre and genozide others like nazists did before.

[جوري]

Can't find 'Trumble's' comment -- not sure if I am on the wrong thread, nonetheless I received it my email, and here is my response to the this is war, and it is fair game

Will keep that in mind indeed, the next time you expect some sort of condemnation for an alleged 'Muslim terrorist Act' -- hey.. this is war!

[sister herb]

I agree completely.
How will a blindfolded Palestinian boy who's lost his entire family in an air strike ever want to have peace with Israel?

:sl:

Blindfolded Palestinian boys whose have lost all they family by zionists/USA air strikes proposed ceasefire for one year. Lets see what zionists say about idea.

:-[

They don´t like to make peace with Palestinians, let me say.

[Trumble]

Can't find 'Trumble's' comment -- not sure if I am on the wrong thread, nonetheless I received it my email, and here is my response to the this is war, and it is fair game

Will keep that in mind indeed, the next time you expect some sort of condemnation for an alleged 'Muslim terrorist Act' -- hey.. this is war!

Wrong thread. However, I am baffled that someone of your undoubted intelligence continues to have difficulty understanding something so simple. I an NOT dismissing or excusing anything happening in Gaza in the way you imply. NOWHERE have I said anything is 'fair game' or implied same. NOWHERE. At least give me the courtesy of actually reading my posts before attempting to reply.

Nothing in war is ever 'fair game'; that's your ridiculous fantasy, not mine. I am merely pointing out that what has happened in Gaza happens in every war because it is in the nature of war, and therefore the only way to avoid the pain and suffering we have seen is to avoid fighting any wars by whatever means necessary. To illustrate that simple argument, I have given examples of other conflicts where similar atrocities - and worse - have occurred asking you and another to explain why you believe them to be different if, in fact, you do.

It really isn't difficult.

[Banu_Hashim]

Wrong thread. However, I am baffled that someone of your undoubted intelligence continues to have difficulty understanding something so simple. I an NOT dismissing or excusing anything happening in Gaza in the way you imply. NOWHERE have I said anything is 'fair game' or implied same. NOWHERE. At least give me the courtesy of actually reading my posts before attempting to reply.

Nothing in war is ever 'fair game'; that's your ridiculous fantasy, not mine. I am merely pointing out that what has happened in Gaza happens in every war because it is in the nature of war, and therefore the only way to avoid the pain and suffering we have seen is to avoid fighting any wars by whatever means necessary. To illustrate that simple argument, I have given examples of other conflicts where similar atrocities - and worse - have occurred asking you and another to explain why you believe them to be different if, in fact, you do.

It really isn't difficult.

It isn't quite as simple as that for us as Muslims. When one part of the Ummah (worldwide Muslim community) is suffering, we all suffer inside.

[Najm]

Wrong thread. However, I am baffled that someone of your undoubted intelligence continues to have difficulty understanding something so simple. I an NOT dismissing or excusing anything happening in Gaza in the way you imply. NOWHERE have I said anything is 'fair game' or implied same. NOWHERE. At least give me the courtesy of actually reading my posts before attempting to reply.

Nothing in war is ever 'fair game'; that's your ridiculous fantasy, not mine. I am merely pointing out that what has happened in Gaza happens in every war because it is in the nature of war, and therefore the only way to avoid the pain and suffering we have seen is to avoid fighting any wars by whatever means necessary. To illustrate that simple argument, I have given examples of other conflicts where similar atrocities - and worse - have occurred asking you and another to explain why you believe them to be different if, in fact, you do.

It really isn't difficult.

Peace...
Maybe it was this comment Uhkti was on about, or maybe i need a correction :X

Post #64
Re: Cease Fire Or A War Against Israel? - 6 Days Ago

Q8sobieski is, of course, quite correct regarding this "fair chance" and "manliness" nonsense. War is not a game, and if an army fights it fights to win. It aims to deny the enemy a 'fair chance' at every possible opportunity, not provide one - something just as true of Hamas or the Taliban as it is the Israeli or US military.

Peace...

[alcurad]

unfortunately, ending all wars and so on are nothing but ridiculous fantasies too Trumble, the only way to stop wars is mutual deterrence, and even that fails at times.

[Trumble]

It isn't quite as simple as that for us as Muslims. When one part of the Ummah (worldwide Muslim community) is suffering, we all suffer inside.

Of course. But this discussion actually originated in another thread where someone was pointing out that such concern regarding Gaza is much more than is being shown, and has been shown in the past, for muslims being persecuted and killed in other parts of the world such as Sudan, Chechnya, Afghanistan, etc. Not unreasonably, he was asking why.

Peace...
Maybe it was this comment Uhkti was on about, or maybe i need a correction :X

If it was, I think we have another misunderstanding - in which case it's probably time I gave up! Nonetheless, my comment is true.. and referred exclusively to combatants, as can be seen from the examples I gave. If a nation goes to war, it does so to win, and commanders do everything possible to deny enemy combatants a 'fair chance' because the more unfair it is, the better the chance of keeping their own men alive. As Patton said, "the object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other b****rd die for his".

[جوري]

Wrong thread. However, I am baffled that someone of your undoubted intelligence continues to have difficulty understanding something so simple. I an NOT dismissing or excusing anything happening in Gaza in the way you imply. NOWHERE have I said anything is 'fair game' or implied same. NOWHERE. At least give me the courtesy of actually reading my posts before attempting to reply.

Nothing in war is ever 'fair game'; that's your ridiculous fantasy, not mine. I am merely pointing out that what has happened in Gaza happens in every war because it is in the nature of war, and therefore the only way to avoid the pain and suffering we have seen is to avoid fighting any wars by whatever means necessary. To illustrate that simple argument, I have given examples of other conflicts where similar atrocities - and worse - have occurred asking you and another to explain why you believe them to be different if, in fact, you do.

It really isn't difficult.

I can't find your original post from which one can only infer, 'this happens in every war' as a passive ok with it! in fact it doesn't and it shouldn't and have shown you, that this doesn't comply with Islamic jurisprudence on war ethics, and there is such a thing as 'war ethics' as agreed upon by the international community
Talking about fantasies, at least try to adhere to what I myself have written, so the rest of your comments don't get dismissed?

Your examples otherwise mean Jack.. history seems to report a different picture from your alleged interpretation of it!

Thankfully three weeks into it, the colonial settler state still hasn't achieved its goals of eliminating Hamas considering their enemy is barricaded from all sides, anymore than they did with hizbAllah... so much for their invincible army!

cheers

[sister herb]

When one part of the Ummah (worldwide Muslim community) is suffering, we all suffer inside.

:sl:

This one of the best deciption what Ummah is I have ever read. Thanks.

:thumbs_up

[Trumble]

I can't find your original post from which one can only infer, 'this happens in every war' as a passive ok with it!

I would have thought a rather more sensible inference was simply that you were looking in the wrong place, but there you go. It's HERE

No, not 'unparalled'. That's war.. it's always like that, a fact few here seem to understand. That's why the only sane thing to do is avoid war, whatever your 'cause' or however angry you may be or justified you think you may be.

in fact it doesn't and it shouldn't and have shown you, that this doesn't comply with Islamic jurisprudence on war ethics, and there is such a thing as 'war ethics' as agreed upon by the international community

What's your point? My claim is not that there have been no breaches of convention, treaty, morality, 'war ethics' or whatever label you want to attach to it in Gaza. My claim is that the same or similar breaches have occurred in most wars, and all historically significant ones.

Your examples otherwise mean Jack.. history seems to report a different picture from your alleged interpretation of it!

Rubbish. You really can't make such an utterly absurd comment without some attempt to justify it. In what way, exactly, am I supposed to be misinterpreting history? Are you seriously claiming that the war crimes and atrocities of WW2, Vietnam or Darfur, to name just a few, somehow never happened or, if they did, were somehow far less serious than those perpetrated by the IDF in Gaza? Please.. produce your evidence, it should be fascinating!

[جوري]

I would have thought a rather more sensible inference was simply that you were looking in the wrong place, but there you go. It's HERE

Thanks.. indeed that is what I am looking for.

What's your point? My claim is not that there have been no breaches of convention, treaty, morality, 'war ethics' or whatever label you want to attach to it in Gaza. My claim is that the same or similar breaches have occurred in most wars, and all historically significant ones.

and my question is-- should such things happen in wars? i.e the murder of women, children and elderly, by religious dictum?

Rubbish. You really can't make such an utterly absurd comment without some attempt to justify it. In what way, exactly, am I supposed to be misinterpreting history? Are you seriously claiming that the war crimes and atrocities of WW2, Vietnam or Darfur, to name just a few, somehow never happened or, if they did, were somehow far less serious than those perpetrated by the IDF in Gaza? Please.. produce your evidence, it should be fascinating!

What are you talking about? I have in fact justified my previous statements it with ( see below), I know it isn't the first time you have seen it, as it was the exact same I pasted in one of the other threads a reply to you, We don't have Muslim scholars condoning the murder or women/children/elderly with illegal chemicals and it is against Islamic warfare ethics. I ask and the question that has always been.. where is western/Israeli ethics? The same ethics that they expect others to comply with especially when labeling them 'terrorist organizations) yet passing religious decree to massacres! I think it is cowardice on their part (which is something patent to the naked eye)-- and lastly I am not the one who only in passing mentioned atrocities committed by Muslims and endorsed by an Islamic state without backing it up.. seems you have made a statement in passing and expected that it should hold!
Do awful things happen in war isn't so much the question as countries adhering to international laws and war ethics to which they are signatory as well if they so expect others to adhere, especially when they are constantly crying wolf over who is in breech of what!

Title

Fight Ethics Between Islam and Zionism

Question

Respected scholars, as-salamu `alaykum.

On Wednesday morning, March 3, 2008, a group of prominent rabbis issued an unprecedented fatwa allowing the Israeli occupation army to bombard the Palestinian civil gatherings. The fatwa also called upon this army to annihilate and burn the Palestinian civilians.

Is this reasonable? And what is the Islamic attitude toward killing civilians?

Jazakum Allahu khayran.

Date

12/Mar/2008

Name of Mufti

Muhammad Abdel-Latif Al-Banna

Topic

Relations during War, Jihad: Rulings & Regulations

Answer

Wa`alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, thank you for the confidence you place in us, and we implore Almighty Allah to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.
Islam stands against killing innocents. Even in war times, Islam does not allow killing civilians who have nothing to do with war, women, children, and worshippers in their places of worship. Also, it does not allow demolishing places of worship or destroying trees.

This clarifies that war in Islam is not meant to destroy and ruin. War in Islam should abide by morality and the ethics and regulations abided by Islam. Given this, the difference between Zionists' destructive wars and our moral wars becomes clear.
In his response to your question, Dr. Muhammad Abdel-Latif Al-Banna, the managing editor of IslamOnline.net's (Arabic) Shari `ah Department, said,

People can see the difference between Zionists' destructive wars and our moral wars, but it is quite strange that their wars are now backed by rabbinic fatwas based on the Torah. That is why we are going to highlight and affirm the difference between their wars and our morality-based wars where women, old people, and civilians are not to be killed, and as long as the person in question is not a warrior. Adversely, in their wars children are killed, houses demolished, electricity cut, blockade imposed, and starvation spread. This clearly shows the immoral features of their wars and that they never comply with any peace pact. Even the absence of international condemnation testifies to collusion with them.
Zionists' War: Destructive
Now, it is not strange that such a fatwa be issued by Jewish rabbis, especially after destroying the infrastructures in Lebanon and killing civilians during their wars in different countries. For instance, they killed the students of Bahr Al-Baqar School in Egypt, murdered summer visitors in Palestine, and destroyed residential buildings in Beirut. They do all this under a religious cover or legitimacy. In my opinion, this legitimacy is most obviously based on the religious Hebraic state as a reference, because their Torah allows killing civilians and destroying humans and facilities.
Such is their distorted Torah on which they depended in issuing such fatwas that contradict all agreements and covenants. In spite of this, we have not heard – so far – any international jural organization blaming them, correcting their notions, or condemning what they have said.
Our Wars: Moral
They called upon their army to destroy and kill others, although this army was in no need for their fatwa. On the other hand, our Islamic Shari`ah is moral and decent in all its wars. It preserves lives, maintains honors, and never destroys people's facilities or property.
Concerning the battlefield where everybody is either killing or killed, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) taught his Companions that the message of fair war in Islam should make it clear to all people that Muslims are heralds of peace. Therefore, if they indulge in any war, it should be undertaken through their morals, including justice with which no one is to be wronged.
It has been narrated by Abu Dawud on the authority of Khalid ibn Al-Fazar, who said, "Anas ibn Malik told me that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, 'Set out in the Name of Allah, with (the help of) Allah, and according to the religion of the Messenger of Allah. Do not kill any man far advanced in years, nor a child, a baby, or a woman. And do not go into excesses. Gather your spoils of war together, do what is right, and do good; truly, Allah loves the good-doers'" (Abu Dawud, Sulayman ibn Al-Ash`ath, Sunan, the book of Jihad, hadith No. 2247, Dar Al-Hadith, Cairo).
This text clarifies that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) specified certain categories to be exempted from killing in wars; including:
Old people, children, and women: not to be killed
Old people:
In principle, they are not to be fought because of their old age. Thus, as a sign of respecting their old age and because they do not (usually) indulge in war, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) commanded that they are not to be killed.
Yet still, we should differentiate between two kinds of old people: First, those who only seek to find their livelihood with no intention of fighting; such have nothing to do with war or fighting; second, those who set plans for war, conspire against Muslims, and dedicate all their experience in life to this goal; it is permissible to fight such people.
Sheikh MuhammadAbu Zahrah, the well-known Muslim scholar, (may Allah have mercy upon him) said, "Old people are of two types: Those who are in charge of wars and have relevant (effective) opinions, and those who are not competent for this, nor do they have anything to do with war. The latter are not to be killed, because there are not enough reasons that obligate fighting (or killing) them. The former, however, can be legally killed, for they are warriors because of their opinions, planning, and conspiring.

In this regard, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered that Durayd ibn As-Simmah be killed in the battle of Hunayn. Although he was one hundred and twenty years old (120), this man was mindful enough to give effective advice, which he had already given in that battle, so he was a warrior because of this" (Muhammad Abu Zahrah, Nazariyyat Al-Harb fi Al-Islam, p. 38).
Women, Workers, and Children:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade killing these people, because they do not usually indulge in war. This is because – in principle – women do not fight and children do not carry weapons, choose (to fight), or realize (what war means). By the same token, workers are originally meant for construction, and war in Islam is not meant for destruction.
I mentioned these categories together under this title because the (relevant religious) texts have something in common concerning them, and these people themselves have a common denominator: They do not usually indulge in war. Moreover, in most cases war is imposed on them. For all these reasons, they have been tackled together under one title.
There are many texts to this effect, including a hadith narrated on the authority of Rabah ibn Rabi`, who said, "We were with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) in a battle when he saw the people assembling around something. He ordered a man to go and see what those people were assembling for. The man came back and said they were assembling around a killed woman. He (the Prophet) said, 'This (woman) would not fight for sure.' " The narrator said, "Khalid ibn Al-Waleed was in charge of the vanguard, so he (the Prophet) sent a man to Khalid to tell him: 'Do not kill a woman or a wageworker' " (Narrated by Abu Dawud, Book of Jihad, Hadith No. 2295).
This hadith includes two important remarks: First, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) denounced that a woman be killed; and secondly, he (peace and blessings be upon him) directly ordered Khalid – as well as all Muslim leaders – not to kill a woman or a wageworker.
This clearly indicates that killing women and wageworkers is not permissible as long as they do not fight or indulge in war. If, however, they do so, it will then be permissible to kill them, because leaving them would be (a support for) killing Muslims.
The reason why workers are not to be killed is that "they do not fight, nor do they have anything to do with war. This is because such people would not fight, as war is usually connected to warriors, and because war (in Islam) is not meant for fighting nations, but for warding off the powers of evil and mischief. That is why it is to be with those who carry weapons and fight, or those who set plans and plots. Moreover, workers – who are totally busy with cultivation or handiwork – are constructors, while war in Islam is not for deconstruction; it is only for warding off corruption. It is further because such workers are (in many cases) wretched under the dominion of unjust rulers, so they should not be a fuel for a war from which they would benefit nothing but suffering" (Muhammad Abu Zahrah, Nazariyyat Al-Harb fi Al-Islam, p. 38).
Just as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade killing women and wageworkers, he also forbade killing children, because they have not done anything wrong to be killed for. It has been narrated on the authority of Qatadah who narrated from Al-Hasan that Al-Aswad ibn Sari` said that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) sent an expedition on the Day of Hunayn. As they were fighting the polytheists, they killed (some of their) offspring (children). When they returned, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) asked them, "Why did you kill offspring?" They replied, "O Messenger of Allah! (It is) only (because) they were children of the polytheists." He said, "Is it not that the best of you are children of polytheists?! By Him in Whose Hands Muhammad’s soul is, no person is born except on fitrah [Arabic for: natural disposition of belief in Allah] until his tongue expresses (this belief or otherwise)" (Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Musnad, The Makkans' Musnad, 15.36).
This is a form of reprimanding those who killed the polytheists' children, because those children had not yet realized (what was meant by war or polytheism), nor had they chosen that (war). Our Islamic Shari`ah requires reaching the age of puberty, sanity, and choosing (not to be under coercion) for a person to be legally responsible (for his actions). Therefore, it is not reasonable that this matter is such clear in our Shari`ah then we would act otherwise.
According to the narration of Ad-Darimi, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) confirmed that children must not be killed. Al-Aswad ibn Sari` said, "We went out with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) in some battle where he overcame the polytheists, so the people (Muslims) speeded up to kill (them) so much that they killed children. When the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was told about that, he said, 'Why have some people hastened to kill (even) children? Behold! No children are to be killed!' repeating it three times" (Ad-Darimi, Sunan, the book of Siyar, Hadith No. 2354).
This denunciation – followed by forbiddance – confirms that Islam is keen on sparing the life of children in all cases. This is because "no aggression is expected from such weak children, so how should they bear the burden of others' aggression? War in Islam is not for annihilating enemies, but for preventing aggression. Therefore, it is not permissible that fighting should go beyond the motives for which it is originally stimulated" (Muhammad Abu Zahrah, Nazariyyat Al-Harb fi Al-Islam, p.38).
Contemporary Opinions on Killing Civilians
In a fatwa issued by Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, vice president of the European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR), concerning killing civilians in wars especially from Jews, he said,
Originally, it is prohibited to kill civilians, women, and children, but certain cases are exempted from this:
1. When all individuals on the enemy side participate in war, as then the term "civilian" would not apply to them.
2. When civilians do things to help militants, as then what they do would be regarded as a "military action."
3. When warriors use civilians, women, and children as a shield and there is no way for Muslim warriors to reach those militants except by killing those civilians.
4. When the enemies kill Muslim civilians, for then their civilians may be treated the same.
5. When a civilian "accepts" usurping a (Muslim) land, he is considered an occupier, and is not a civilian any more.
6. When children themselves are not intended (or targeted) to be killed (deliberately) without doing anything wrong or committing any crime.
It is well known that Israelis, men and women, indulge in war against Palestinians, so they are warriors. They are also usurpers of the (Palestinian) land, because the Jews in Palestine have emigrated from various countries, and they have no right in this land. In Islam, it is obligatory to liberate any Islamic land from occupation. It should also be known that jihad against the Jews is not because they are Jews, but because they are usurpers and warriors.
The same opinion was adopted by:

Dr. Ahmad Nawfal, professor of Shari`ah in Jordan;


Dr. Sheikh Hamid Al-`Ali, professor of Islamic culture in the faculty of Elementary Education, Kuwait;


Dr. Nizar `Abd Al-Qadir Rayyan, participant professor of the science of Hadith, Gaza University;


Sheikh Jalal Yusuf Ash-Sharqi, a personal status judge in Bahrain;
and many others.

[Trumble]

and my question is-- should such things happen in wars? i.e the murder of women, children and elderly, by religious dictum?

Of course they shouldn't happen, I have already said that. But they do happen because it is in the nature of war that they will. It's not a case of what ethics are taught or preached, what scholars may say, or what treaties are signed. War is a brutal dehumanising experience, and it changes those involved in fighting it - sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worse.

What are you talking about?

I think we are at pretty fundamental cross purposes; we are simply debating completely different things. Rather than spend the rest of the evening trying sort out exactly what we are disputing, it's best left there maybe?

[x..Muslimah..x]

:cry: Subhannallah ..

How can People be soo evil &- heartless

May Allah Grant the little boy a place in Paradise & Reward his Parents .. Ameen

[Zahida]

:sl:B*******S!!!imsadimsad

GAZA CITY — "Dad, I'm dying."
The words keep echoing in Kamal Awaga's ears, sending jolts of pain into his feeble, wounded body.

These were the last words uttered by his 9-year-old son, Ibrahim, before he ended up as a practicing target for Israeli soldiers.

"They killed my son in cold blood," says the grief-stricken father, still in a state of shock.

Ibrahim joined more than 350 children killed by Israel in its three-week onslaught on the coastal enclave.

But while others fell victim to killer bullets or deadly bombs, Ibrahim's fate was even more tragic.

He became a shooting practice for a squad of Israeli soldiers.

"The Israelis did not show mercy for his innocence," said his tearful father from his bed at the Al-Shefa hospital in Gaza City.

"They had no pity for his tiny body," added the heart-broken father.

A Sunny Day

Nothing in the day prepared the Awaga family for the tragic twist of events that unfolded.

They woke up to a sunny morning after days of being locked in one small room to escape the massive Israeli bombardment.

"Mom, let's have our breakfast out in the garden. I'm tired of staying in this room," the grieved mother recalls Ibrahim's plea.

An hour later, the table was set in the garden and the family was hoping to enjoy rare moments of peace, unaware of the eyes watching them from a distance.

A first missile stole the family's job before another destroyed their house.

"Dad, I am dying," cried Ibrahim to his father who rushed frantically to his side.

"Hurry, let's go," Awaga told his wife and two other children while carrying bleeding Ibrahim.

But even before they could reach the gate, a flood of bullets showered them.

One bullet hit the mother's leg and another hit the father's waist.

Ibrahim's two frightened brothers ran for cover behind the rubbles of their bombed-out house.

Shooting Practice

As the firing died down, the family thought their misery was over. But the Israeli soldiers were not finished yet.

"When the soldiers came closer, I thought they will kill me," said Awaga who faked being dead.

"But they were aiming at my young child," he said choking at the bitter memory.

One soldier came close to Ibrahim's body, turning him by his leg and laughing while another fired his gun to the dead boy's head.

Laughs got louder as they carried the body to a higher place to start their party.

For a whole hour, the father hushed his cries of pain as he watched the Israeli soldiers compete in sniping on his dead son's body.

"They were using his bullet-ridden, bleeding body as a shooting practice.

"With each bullet, they were humming with words I could not figure out, but it sounded full of rapture. It was as if they were celebrating."

When they finally had enough "practicing," the Israelis took their guns and left the house.

Four complete days passed before emergency doctors were able to find their way to the family and rush them to hospital.

"What did my son do to deserve that?" Awaga asks, shaking his head in disbelief.

"The Israelis killed my kid, not once or twice but a thousand times."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout

[sister herb]

:sl:

We muslims will never fight against children or women or any civilians.

Kafirs might behave like this, not we.

[jenwen74]

:cry:
I'm so sad after reading this. I wish i could help and my heart is breaking with each story i read, and every report on aljazeera. Hamdullah, every brother and sister who suffers in this evil, disgusting torture and murder will go straight to Allahs Paradise.

IT HAS TO STOP NOW!

[Amadeus85]

My question is simple but honest - in what way the palestinian victims are more special than the black muslims from Darfur, Sudan, that they got so many threads and your anger. The muslims worldwide, as you say, are all relatives, so why some "brothers" and "sisters" get so much attention and other not. Is it because the Darfurians were killed by co-religionists muslims, or because their deaths werent televised by Al Jazeera.

[Whatsthepoint]

:sl:

Blindfolded Palestinian boys whose have lost all they family by zionists/USA air strikes proposed ceasefire for one year. Lets see what zionists say about idea.

:-[

They don´t like to make peace with Palestinians, let me say.

Ceasefire does not equal peace.

[sister herb]

Ceasefire does not equal peace.

:sl:

Surely not peace; Hamas demanded freedom for Gazans. There is still siege, political and economical.

[Keltoi]

:sl:

We muslims will never fight against children or women or any civilians.

Kafirs might behave like this, not we.

Someone should remind the "freedom fighters" in Iraq and Afghanistan about that.

[sister herb]

Someone should remind the "freedom fighters" in Iraq and Afghanistan about that.

:sl:

I would like to remind this; only Allah knows are some fighters muslims or have they left Islam.

:X

Judge others doesn´t belongs to me.

[جوري]

My question is simple but honest - in what way the palestinian victims are more special than the black muslims from Darfur, Sudan, that they got so many threads and your anger. The muslims worldwide, as you say, are all relatives, so why some "brothers" and "sisters" get so much attention and other not. Is it because the Darfurians were killed by co-religionists muslims, or because their deaths werent televised by Al Jazeera.

A conundrum indeed.. perhaps we can classify it under those mysteries like, why would a polish fellow preoccupy himself with the affairs of Muslims on an Islamic forum in lieu or trying to solve his own country's crisis? -- simple, but honest! :D

cheers

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Saturday, January 17, 2009
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Economy, Poland's Top Problem, Is Ignored by Candidates

By JOHN TAGLIABUE, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: May 30, 1989
LEAD: Although the economy appears to be Poland's most pressing problem, it is not an issue in the nation's freest election campaign since the Communists took power after World War II.
Although the economy appears to be Poland's most pressing problem, it is not an issue in the nation's freest election campaign since the Communists took power after World War II.
The country has a $39 billion foreign debt and a runaway money supply chasing an erratic flow of consumer goods. But candidates of the ruling Communist Party prefer to avoid the big economic problems, limiting themselves instead to nickel-and-dime issues like getting telephones installed in constituencies that lack them.
The Solidarity movement, the challenger to the Communists in the national elections, which will be held on Sunday, has its own reasons to skirt the issue. Critics of Solidarity's economics contend the movement suffers from its hybrid quality. Solidarity, which is neither a pure trade union with exclusively labor interests nor a classic political party with a complete economic program, now resembles a national front, united only by its opposition to the ruling Communists.
Solidarity has been under little pressure to make firm campaign pledges on the economy. With only 35 percent of the lower chamber of Parliament, or Sejm, assured for Solidarity under the present voting arrangement, the union will not be able to control the new Government, and thus can evade responsibility. Major Problem After Vote
But the economy will be the primary problem confronting the Government after the vote.
For example, the Government has acted in recent months to adjust farm prices to production costs by increasing prices for the equipment and materials, such as feed and fertilizers, that farmers use. Now the Government must act quickly after the election to raise food prices, or risk making farming so unprofitable that production would drop drastically and food shortages would result. In Poland, such food price increases have often touched off unrest.
Even more disturbing for Solidarity, the union entered a deal with the regime under which it agreed to maintain labor peace in exchange for political concessions like Solidarity's return to legal status, and the present elections. Until now Lech Walesa, the Solidarity leader, has managed to keep widespread wildcat strikes from spreading.
Even as Election Day approaches, economic indicators are getting worse.
A scathing report last week on the economy in the weekly Zycie Gospodarcze, said that over the first four months of the year the sole bright spot in the economy, industrial production, had begun to dim, adding a third liability to faltering consumer supplies and runaway inflation. Fear of Worsening Conditions
Judging from several rallies and election meetings, the concerns that do arise when discussion turns to the economy are about the risks involved in a free-for-all market economy, with fears that conditions for most people will get worse. But there is also discussion of abuse by Communist Party officials, and worry that heavily indebted Poland, after years of subservience to Russian masters, is about to be sold out to the West.
Concern over party corruption focuses on profiteering by managers of state enterprises. Poland has recently sought to broaden the private sector, allowing small manufacturing and service companies to speed the flow of goods and services.
But Poles have grown familiar through the ever more free-wheeling press with reports of state company managers who take shares in private companies that rely for their profits on equipment and supplies from those same state companies.
In his campaign in rural regions around Piotrkow Trybunalski, west of Warsaw, Andrzej Zawislak, an economist at Warsaw university, said the crushing debt problem, and what people perceived as the Communist leadership's mad dash, hat in hand, for Western credits, caused fears in the constituency of a sellout to the West.
One of the questions most frequently put to him, he said, went like this: ''Do you think that these Communists first sold us to the Russians, and now that the water is up to their necks, they're going to sell us to the West Germans and Americans.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...56C0A96F948260

[Amadeus85]

A conundrum indeed.. perhaps we can classify it under those mysteries like, why would a polish fellow preoccupy himself with the affairs of Muslims on an Islamic forum in lieu or trying to solve his own country's crisis? -- simple, but honest! :D

cheers

That article is about elections in 1989... Anyway, it's meaningless. I still haven't got answer for my question.

[جوري]

Someone should remind the "freedom fighters" in Iraq and Afghanistan about that.

ah ---Agent Provocateurs? .. one wonders what Iraqis would gain killing one another were it not instigated to begin with, or better yet when impersonated..

UK Soldiers Caught Dressed As Iraqis Killing Local Police
David Cohen |

Jeff - The BBC reported somthing VERY vague about an attack on the Basra jail but it caught my attention, so I switched to the Australian TV channels to find more info:

The reports stated two British commando special forces dressed as Iraqis have been cought by the Iraqis after they were found shooting and killing local policemen. And the Iraqis put them in jail.

The British army then, came with tanks, destroyed the jail and freed the two british commandos. In the process, all the Iraqi prisoners in the jail ran away to freedom.

Riots started, and I saw British tanks engulfed with molotov coktails and British soldiers runing out of thier tanks, some were on fire.

This report give crediblity to the 'conspiracy theorists' who have long claimed many terrorist acts in Iraq are, in fact, being initiated and carried out by US, British and Israeli forces.

The TRUTH is the British had to either rescue or kill these two commandos in order to keep these operations secret. Fortunately for the two Brits, they were saved.

The British Commander of the forces involved gave such idiotic excuses I won't even bother to report them to you. The followng just moved on the net...


Iraqi Prison Stormed By British Tanks And Helicopters

British forces in tanks and helicopters stormed an Iraqi jail tonight to rescue two service personnel who were arrested after allegedly shooting dead a local policeman and wounding another, the governor of Basra said.

The two men had been taken to the Basra jail after violence erupted earlier today in the southern Iraqi city.

Photographs of the two - thought to be special forces officers - were taken and released to the media, showing them bandaged and bloody.

British troops had arrived at the police station where the two men were being held and encircled the building.

They were attacked by demonstrators with rocks and petrol bombs.

One soldier was seen engulfed by flames tumbling from his tank and gunfire was exchanged between the two sides, leaving three soldiers injured and two civilians dead.

Later, more than 10 tanks and helicopters broke down the walls of the jail in the rescue operation to release the two arrested servicemen.

It was also reported that 150 Iraqi prisoners escaped in what Mohammed al-Waili, the governor of Basra, described as a 'barbaric, savage and irresponsible' act.

The MoD refused to comment after officials said that the two men were undercover officers dressed as Arabs.

The spokesman said: "We can confirm that the two military personnel have been released."

Mr al-Waili said: "A British force of more than 10 tanks backed by helicopters attacked the central jail and destroyed it. This is an irresponsible act."

He said the British force had spirited the prisoners away to an unknown location.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ira...ovocateurs.htm

amongst other reports of course (those reported and those not), but we have come to know for your mediocrity especially when it comes to common sense and your ability to draw such satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions!

cheers

[جوري]

That article is about elections in 1989... Anyway, it's meaningless. I still haven't got answer for my question.

actually it is dated

Saturday, January 17, 2009 even if the events date to back when.. I suppose when you come up with an answer to your presence here as well as preoccupation with affairs that don't seem to be as pressing to you as your own country's problems, would you then receive an answer in return.. start small and work your way up!

cheers

[Amadeus85]

actually it is dated

Saturday, January 17, 2009 even if the events date to back when.. I suppose when you come up with an answer to your presence here as well as preoccupation with affairs that don't seem to be as pressing to you as your own country's problems, would you then receive an answer in return.. start small and work your way up!

cheers

The reason of my presence here- I like knowing whats going on in the world. Thats why I also visit BBC UK and other sites like this. My own country's problems are solved better or worse by our politicians. But I still think about my question. Is it only because the Darfurians were killed by the co-religionists?

[جوري]

The reason of my presence here- I like knowing whats going on in the world. Thats why I also visit BBC UK and other sites like this. My own country's problems are solved better or worse by our politicians. But I still think about my question. Is it only because the Darfurians were killed by the co-religionists?

hmmn no it doesn't seem to be solved by your country's politicians

Corruption in Poland as a result of the 50 years of "communist rule". Law and justice - but what about honesty?

According to many, Poland is not only one of the most corrupted countries in Europe, but the most corrupted one. Even the former US secretary of state Zbigniew Brzezinski, commented on the subject during his recent visit to Poland in his speech (in Polish) after the death of the Pope.

The communist system, although its ideas were exciting, unfortunately was not embraced nor understood by the people. It either came too early, or the people were simply not able to understand how good it was if applied properly. The ownership of the means of production by the state meant to the great majority of Poles that they did not belong to anyone. "We are the state," some were saying, "thus, nothing improper, if I take home a bit of my property. It is not stealing, you can't steal something that belongs to you."

The Poles, not unlike any other nation, are selfish. Everyone for himself, this is why capitalism works, and communism doesn't. People look after their own property; they don't look after the state's property. In that situation the factories, agriculture, etc were left on its own. No one cared.

On the other hand, the country of "workers and peasants" disrespected the very people it was meant to represent. The educated communist elite was in charge. The people with university degrees enjoyed high incomes and high standard of living while the "working class" was exceedingly poor. The state controlled media lied about the state of the country, about ambitious plans and achievements that were simply false. Everyone lied to each other. And the ruling class gave the worst examples of how you should act. The people in power were speaking with double-tongues; on one hand extolling the virtues of the honesty in a socialist state, on the other hand, stealing like crazy, promoting their own interests in the society, giving the best jobs to family and friends and so on.

The "cheating" system does exist even in other countries, but in the East, in Poland, it was a party doctrine. Join the communist party, be a consummate liar, collect the riches, climb up the ladder. Bribes and lies were an accepted method of gaining success - stealing from the state, a rule.

No wonder that fifty years of this kind of indoctrination resulted in a warped nation. As Abba sang, "Money, money, money" - nothing else mattered.

Formally Poland as a member of EU follows the same set of laws as the other of its members, in practice, the old system is still in place. Since the same people, already educated and in charge during the "socialist" era are still in power, nothing has changed. The former president Mr. Kwasniewski was a communist party member, as an example. Socialism, democracy - the name of the systems may change, all the career politicians care about is to survive. And survive they did.

Almost no one was given the sack, although, the members of the secret police, police, justice system, etc have had held their positions during the "old times" working well within the old system. The Polish laws are supposed to comply with the EUs, but law is one thing, justice yet another. The best proof of the current situation in Poland is the arrival of a new party that finds the need to call itself: "Law and justice". (Funnily enough no one, in this context, talks about honesty.)

It seems the party means that although the laws exist, they are not being applied in a proper way, and although Poland has a justice system, it does not administer justice, as it should.

For any Pole it is obvious that this is the case. The talk about scandals and corruption, that includes even the President (Kwasniewski) and his wife, is the most common subject in the media, that itself is not immune from accusations. It has taken fifty years of "socialism" to create a "new socialist people" (which spells as cheats and an opportunists), the question now is, how long will it take to create an honest one.

corruptionpoland.jp.jpg
http://www.polishforums.com/corrupti...d-7_194_0.html

again-- preoccupy yourself with your own problems and then come ask of the darfurians and and and, or perhaps start a thread about them in a section not dedicated to Gaza so you and yours don't come across like extreme hypocrites-- which in my mind there is no doubt of!

There is really no point of discussing underwater basket weaving in cooking class.. but if you so enjoy the diversions I hope you enjoyed our little skit on Poland!

cheers

[Amadeus85]

Yes I enjoyed, I even read the whole article. Although I must say that things improved since 2005 and the lsot of post-communists in elections. It is true, many things must be improved, but still we can be proud of many things.
I ask my question because my muslim friend in university sent me a link with pics of Gaza masacres and he said like this- "We muslims around the world are all relatives, if one of our brother or sister suffers, we pray for peace and cry for them". Then I thought, why he never sent me link with Darfur massacres, which nowadays even flood to Chad. There is enormous disproportion also in this forum, when some say "Zionists" are 1 zillion times worse than nazi, talking about new Holocaust, making dozens of threads. Yes, I agree, human death is a disaster, I have little idea of whats hapenning in Palestina/Israel, as I think that it is a play between USA, arabic regimes and Iran and Russia. Its just double standard if the ethnic cleansing of 250 000 black muslims didnt release same anger of yours.

[جوري]

Yes I enjoyed, I even read the whole article.

Great

Although I must say that things improved since 2005 and the lsot of post-communists in elections

others beg to differ but that isn't an issue of concern to me

. It is true, many things must be improved, but still we can be proud of many things.

Good for you man

I ask my question because my muslim friend in university sent me a link with pics of Gaza masacres and he said like this- "We muslims around the world are all relatives, if one of our brother or sister suffers, we pray for peace and cry for them". Then I thought, why he never sent me link with Darfur massacres, which nowadays even flood to Chad.

the Islamic perspective on the matter.. if truly you were interested

America and Europe claim to set the style of religious tolerance for the rest of the world to follow. Africa in some parts of it challenges that assumption and the wave of negative images the Western media have constructed of a continent believed by many scientists to be the origin of mankind. Below is an interview Muslim Affairs conducted with Dr. Ali A. Mazrui on issues of religion, conflict, and democracy in the African continent.

Dr. Ali A. Mazrui is a distinguished Kenyan scholar. He is now Albert Schweitzer Professor in the Humanities and Director of the Institute of Global Cultural Studies at Binghamton University, State University of New York. He is also Albert Luthuli Professor-at-Large at the University of Jos in Nigeria. He is Andrew D. White Professor-at-Large Emeritus and Senior Scholar in Africana Studies at Cornell University. Dr. Mazrui has also been appointed Chancellor of the Jomo Kenyatta University of Agriculture and Technology in Kenya — an appointment made by Kenya’s Head of State.



IOL: Certain conflicts in Africa, particularly in Sudan and Somalia, would be described as religiously motivated, therefore, qualifying to be called manifestations of an ongoing clash between Islam and the West, according to some observers. What do you think about this assumption?Mazrui: With regards to Sudan, religious factors are found in the north-south conflict, but almost there is no religious factor with regard to Darfur; that is the conflict where all sides are Muslims, so they are not quarrelling about religion. They are quarrelling about other matters. But the older conflict which is hopefully coming to an end between North and South in Sudan maybe includes a religious dimension among several other issues.
In Somalia, the country is overwhelmingly Muslim, and they are trying to experiment with an Islamic system before Ethiopians intervened. So again there is a religious issue there, and again it is one issue because Somalis also fight among each others when they are all Muslims. So the conflicts are very often clan conflicts rather than conflicts between religion and secularity.
In the case of Ethiopia, it is not overwhelmingly Christian; It is about half and half, and only because Christians are in political control, to some extent, that there is tension between Muslims and Christians.

Where there is no ethnic or tribal tension, relation between Muslims and Christians in Africa are likely better than in most part of the world.IOL: If we look at the history of the relationship between Islam and Christianity in Africa, is there anything that can explain the current conflicts in Somalia and Sudan?Mazrui: The relations between Islam and Christianity are relatively cordial in Africa as compared with the relations between them in other regions. So, Africa is the only continent where you can have a country with 90 percent Muslims and yet can elect a Christian president as in Senegal, or a country that can have half Muslims and half Christians and people share the presidency. Tanzania had a Christian president for two terms followed by a Muslim president, then a Christian president and now a Muslim president. They are not fighting over religion; they are sharing power. So, In general, in Africa the two religions are very often cordial unless they are complicated by other differences.
In Nigeria, almost all Hausa, in terms of ethnic groups, are Muslims and almost all Ibos are Christians. Islam enforces Hausa identity, and Christianity enforces Ibo identity. Yoruba, which is a third group, splits half and half, Muslims and Christians. So, in that situation where u have ethnicity and tribalism being an additional divide, religion then becomes a complicating factor. But where there is no ethnic or tribal tension, relation between Muslims and Christians in Africa are likely better than in most part of the world.
IOL: Do you think religion plays a major role in African politics?

Dr. Ali. A. AzruiMazrui: In some countries yes, but not so much in others like Senegal, where a Christian president (Léopold Sédar Senghor) was elected president for 20 years (1960-1980) by the overwhelming Muslim population. So that sort of thing will never happen in any other region of the world. Different African countries, however, have different demographic balances with Christians and Muslims and these can get along quite well. But when there is tribalism which enforces religious divisions, there is the problem.
IOL: But isn't there a difference between how religion affects politics in Africa and how it does so in the United States and Europe?
Mazrui:Yes definitely, As I said in politics, in Africa it is possible for people to elect members of deferent faiths to be heads of states. The United States has never had a Jew for president and only one president was a Roman Catholic and all other presidents had been protestants. In Africa, there are countries with overwhelmingly one religion and have a president from another religion. There is an entirely different orientation with regard to the relationship between religion and state progress; you can not imagine a Muslim being elected as president in the United States.

China is for some reason regarded as responsible for not restraining Sudan and that is often an unjust charge against China.IOL: Do you think some big powers, such as the United States, China, and Europe, exploit religious and ethnic differences in some parts of Africa to advance their political and economic interests?Mazrui:Certainly with regard to China vs. the West, there is a new form of rivalry. The old cold war was primarily ideological, this one is resource rivalry. Chinese on one side and Westerners on the other are concerned about comparative advantage with regard to access to Africa's resources, including Sudanese oil. China is for some reason regarded as responsible for not restraining Sudan and that is often unjust charge against China. So, some of the local problems, like the problem of Darfur, become internationalized because they are used as part of the international rivalry between big powers.
The United States decided to regard the conflict in Darfur as a case of genocide and it is only the United States that has taken that position; It is not a United Nations position and it is not a majority position in the world. To describe it as a genocide, you have a good deal of special type of emotions and you aggravate the tensions between those who want to protect the people of Darfur and those who want to protect the sovereignty of Sudan. So, in those situations the local and the global intermingle.

Darfur has been dramatized by describing it as a genocide.IOL: How can you explain the current Media disregard of the crisis in Somalia as opposed to that in Darfur?Mazrui:Darfur has been dramatized by describing it as a genocide and having a situation where there is a particular government that can be held accountable, whereas in Somalia there hasn't been much with a government that has been struggling to have an ensemble of institutions on and off.
Second, Westerners argue that Somalia is pretty close to being Africa's Afghanistan and therefore sufficiently anarchic and chaotic to be hospitable for al-Qaeda, because they are watching very carefully in case it comes to what they regard as breeding terrorists. But politics is a matter of perception rather than a matter of fact.
IOL:Can the international disregard of Somalia be attributed to the assumption the United States and other big powers have less interests in Somalia than they have in Darfur.
Mazrui: Somalia is very strategic and it is well located near the Middle East, but it is a very poor country and the United States does not want it to fall into the wrong hands.
IOL: Now I would like to ask about the issue of democracy in Africa. Some parts of Africa, like Kenya and Zimbabwe, have had relatively free and competitive elections, yet those defeated would not step down. What is wrong with the democratic process in Africa?

Mazrui: In Kenya parliamentary elections, one powerful Kenyan after another was defeated and lost their seats including vice president of Kenya at the time. So it looked as if the elections were transparent and open until you go to the presidency and then trouble begins. In Zimbabwe, there is a similar type of situation. Mugabe has lost the majority in parliament and then you have all this stalemate waiting to see how the vote went with regard to the presidency.
Unfortunately, although we have made progress in Africa by having competitive elections of the presidency the progress is not great enough to lead to a full acceptance of defeat at least in some countries. There had been countries where elections defeated incumbents as in Zambia and then somebody else succeeds. Similar thing happened in Malawi in the past; incumbent was defeated and somebody else succeeded. So it has happened before, but usually those who are in power are a bit reluctant to let go and it is very sad.
I still think there is progress because African presidents before would not even allow rivals in competitive elections and so the presidency was never competed for. For quite awhile in Kenya President Jomo Kenyatta never really had a rival when he was alive, and then for nearly two decades there has never been challenge from election to election. Now it is challenging, but there has not being learned how to accept defeat.
IOL: Some observers would say that the violence following the Kenyan elections sent shock waves to other African regimes to beware the consequences of any attempts to hold into power against the will of their people. Now the regime in Zimbabwe does not seem to care about the Kenyan experience. Do you think other regimes would follow Zimbabwe in that step?
Mazrui: Well, never these countries have experienced a situation where someone who is in the presidency was defeated and goes out. It has happened in other parts of Africa like Senegal, where Abdou Diouf was defeated and he stepped down but it has never happened in Eastern Africa.
We are struggling within uncharted territory, and in southern Africa it did happen. In Zambia the president was defeated and stepped out of power, so Mugabe should have followed that example

There is enormous disproportion also in this forum, when some say "Zionists" are 1 zillion times worse than nazi, talking about new Holocaust, making dozens of threads. Yes, I agree, human death is a disaster, I have little idea of whats hapenning in Palestina/Israel, as I think that it is a play between USA, arabic regimes and Iran and Russia. Its just double standard if the ethnic cleansing of 250 000 black muslims didnt release same anger of yours.

No disproportion, the zionists are indeed akin to the Nazis except far worst as one war ended after 5 yrs, whilst the Palestinians have been living beneath this injustice for 60+ with the endorsement of others. ..

there is no double standard a discerning look and serious study will clarify that for you... other than that, the article above is more the sufficient!

cheers

[sister herb]

Yes I enjoyed, .

For zionists you are same as we as muslims; non-human as non-jew.

:D

Welcome to club!

[Banu_Hashim]

My question is simple but honest - in what way the palestinian victims are more special than the black muslims from Darfur, Sudan, that they got so many threads and your anger. The muslims worldwide, as you say, are all relatives, so why some "brothers" and "sisters" get so much attention and other not. Is it because the Darfurians were killed by co-religionists muslims, or because their deaths werent televised by Al Jazeera.

That's a very fair question. Sometimes Muslims often over look the fact that Muslim suffering is endemic not just in the Middle East but all over the World including Africa, as you said. Our hearts go out to those Muslims, as well as the Gazzans. However, the crisis at the moment is not the result of a disagreement from few weeks ago.. but it has a long history of opression. That's why it is a particularly bitter topic, when Israeli's are killing Palestinians left right and centre. No one is more special than anyone else.

[sister herb]

Peaceful rabbis:

Israeli rabbis to Olmert:It doesn’t matter even if you kill million Palestinians

[ 18/01/2009 - 02:02 AM ]




GAZA, (PIC)-- A report issued by the Saudi Al-Watan news paper revealed Saturday that Jewish rabbis in the Zionist entity have issued a religious edict allowing the killing of Palestinian women and children and exonerating every Jew doing such horrible thing.

According to the paper, the rabbis opined that the Israeli massacres in Gaza Strip falls in line with Jewish teachings that consider such killing as "mass punishment to the enemies".

The paper also added that one of the rabbis opined that there would be no problem at all in exterminating the Palestinian people even if one million or more of them were killed at the hands of the occupation troops.

Citing verses from the Book of Geneses, Jewish rabbi Mordachi Elyaho, who is the religious reference of the popular religious current in the Zionist entity sent outgoing Israeli premier Ehud Olmert a weekly leaflet containing articles allowing the Jews to carryout the idea of massive punishment against the enemies in accordance with the ethics of war in the Torah, the paper pointed out.

"This standard could also be applied to the case of Gaza as all Gaza inhabitants bear the responsibility because they didn’t do anything to stop the firing of Qassam Brigades" said Elyaho in his letter to Olmert, urging him to continue the military aggression on the Palestinians because "harming innocent Palestinians was a legitimate matter."

Yesrael Rozin, another fanatic rabbi, was also quoted as saying that law of the Torah stipulates the killing of men, children, women, elderly, infants, and animals [of the enemy], the paper furthermore added.

For his part, Safad rabbi Sholomo Elyaho underlined, "If we kill 100 of them but they refuse to halt this [firing of rockets] them we should kill 1000; and if we kill 1000 of them but they didn’t stop, then we should kill 10000 of them, and we must continue killing them even if they reach one million and despite the time spent in killing them".

"The Psalms says "I should continue chasing my enemies and arrest them, and I won't cease till I finish them completely", the rabbi said according to the report.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/d...WMM3df%2fk8%3d

:exhausted

[Whatsthepoint]

Peaceful rabbis:

Israeli rabbis to Olmert:It doesn’t matter even if you kill million Palestinians

[ 18/01/2009 - 02:02 AM ]




GAZA, (PIC)-- A report issued by the Saudi Al-Watan news paper revealed Saturday that Jewish rabbis in the Zionist entity have issued a religious edict allowing the killing of Palestinian women and children and exonerating every Jew doing such horrible thing.

According to the paper, the rabbis opined that the Israeli massacres in Gaza Strip falls in line with Jewish teachings that consider such killing as "mass punishment to the enemies".

The paper also added that one of the rabbis opined that there would be no problem at all in exterminating the Palestinian people even if one million or more of them were killed at the hands of the occupation troops.

Citing verses from the Book of Geneses, Jewish rabbi Mordachi Elyaho, who is the religious reference of the popular religious current in the Zionist entity sent outgoing Israeli premier Ehud Olmert a weekly leaflet containing articles allowing the Jews to carryout the idea of massive punishment against the enemies in accordance with the ethics of war in the Torah, the paper pointed out.

"This standard could also be applied to the case of Gaza as all Gaza inhabitants bear the responsibility because they didn’t do anything to stop the firing of Qassam Brigades" said Elyaho in his letter to Olmert, urging him to continue the military aggression on the Palestinians because "harming innocent Palestinians was a legitimate matter."

Yesrael Rozin, another fanatic rabbi, was also quoted as saying that law of the Torah stipulates the killing of men, children, women, elderly, infants, and animals [of the enemy], the paper furthermore added.

For his part, Safad rabbi Sholomo Elyaho underlined, "If we kill 100 of them but they refuse to halt this [firing of rockets] them we should kill 1000; and if we kill 1000 of them but they didn’t stop, then we should kill 10000 of them, and we must continue killing them even if they reach one million and despite the time spent in killing them".

"The Psalms says "I should continue chasing my enemies and arrest them, and I won't cease till I finish them completely", the rabbi said according to the report.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/d...WMM3df%2fk8%3d

:exhausted

I wonder what these funny-hatters have to say about the holocaust..

[Keltoi]

ah ---Agent Provocateurs? .. one wonders what Iraqis would gain killing one another were it not instigated to begin with, or better yet when impersonated..

amongst other reports of course (those reported and those not), but we have come to know for your mediocrity especially when it comes to common sense and your ability to draw such satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions!

cheers

In other words, it is easier to deflect the issue by pointing to a conspiracy than actually addressing it.

[جوري]

Is it also conspiracy even when quoted by your own news sources?... hilarious..

[Keltoi]

Is it also conspiracy even when quoted by your own news sources?... hilarious..

One article about one incident is hardly an explanation for the thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians, including a large number of women and children, killed by the so-called "resistance" in Iraq. That is why it is a deflection, which you well know.

[جوري]

One article about one incident is hardly an explanation for the thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians, including a large number of women and children, killed by the so-called "resistance" in Iraq. That is why it is a deflection, which you well know.

It isn't a one incident or a one article, ironically if you can't deem it propaganda you'll orphan it.. it was the first on the laundry list-- but as previously mentioned you're an average joe who draws satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions and then expect the world to jump on the same turnip truck.
isn't it amusing at all that all such incidents instigated or local seem to really flourish under American invasion? who is deflecting?

[alcurad]

Keltoi, plunge a country in war, besiege it for over a decade, disband the army and government and see what happens.

[Azy]

We muslims will never fight against children or women or any civilians.

Kafirs might behave like this, not we.

We don't have Muslim scholars condoning the murder or women/children/elderly with illegal chemicals and it is against Islamic warfare ethics.

Whether Muslim scholars condone it or not it doesn't change the fact that it happens, perhaps not chemical warfare but women and children die.
When Hamas fires an unguided rpg at a town in Israel, it is targetting civilians.

[جوري]

Whether Muslim scholars condone it or not it doesn't change the fact that it happens, perhaps not chemical warfare but women and children die.
When Hamas fires an unguided rpg at a town in Israel, it is targetting civilians.

Do you live in a parallel universe than the rest of us? It is as if you were globally compromised... which is a wonder to me why you engage in any topic at all, seems even grade school curriculum is a challenge for you.

please do us all a favor and read more than you write, there is no point in proving to everyone the obvious about you!

[Muezzin]

People. Topic. Please.

As deplorable as the actual topic is. :(

[Keltoi]

Keltoi, plunge a country in war, besiege it for over a decade, disband the army and government and see what happens.

I understand very well what happens, but again, this is another deflection from the moral issue we were addressing. When one states Muslims do not kill women and children...well, we all know that self-described Muslims have been killing women and children for quite some time. You can point to the break down of society, which I would agree, or you can point to a conspiracy. Either way the reality of Muslims killing innocents cannot be kicked under the carpet. Especially when it is intentional and blatant as suicide attacks are.

[Azy]

Do you live in a parallel universe than the rest of us? It is as if you were globally compromised... which is a wonder to me why you engage in any topic at all, seems even grade school curriculum is a challenge for you.

please do us all a favor and read more than you write, there is no point in proving to everyone the obvious about you!

Again you manage to speak without actually saying anything. What is it, specifically, you find disagreeable in my post?

Back on the topic, as a few people said this sounds very much like a propaganda piece. There are a couple of things which seem a little bit odd.

Child: "Mom, let's have our breakfast out in the garden. I'm tired of staying in this room"
Mom: "Are you feeling ok? We're in the middle of a ******* war zone"

Also a couple of trained soldiers, in a warzone, basically camping out and bringing as much attention to themselves as they can for a whole hour while fighting a guerilla force on their own turf.

Given the circumstances I'm not sure that IslamOnline jouralism is the most impartial.

[sister herb]

:sl:

Topic is that zionists murdered unarmed civilians. The civiliazed world can't deny it.

It is simply war crime and I am deeply sorry for those whose try to deny that also Palestinians wouldn´t have humans whose have same right for humanity than all of us!

Thank you Muezzin for reminding what is real topic here.

[جوري]

Again you manage to speak without actually saying anything. What is it, specifically, you find disagreeable in my post?

I find that an exceptional assessment of yourself.

Back on the topic, as a few people said this sounds very much like a propaganda piece. There are a couple of things which seem a little bit odd.

Really like what, the video with several children with bullets riddled across their chest was in the lines of an anime?

Child: "Mom, let's have our breakfast out in the garden. I'm tired of staying in this room"
Mom: "Are you feeling ok? We're in the middle of a ******* war zone"

Your self dreamt fantasies are indeed alot more convincing than seeing the colonial settler cockroach state fire at everything including U.N convoys -- sold to the nearest gullible turd.. that would be on a zionist forum so how about you take leave there?

Also a couple of trained soldiers, in a warzone, basically camping out and bringing as much attention to themselves as they can for a whole hour while fighting a guerilla force on their own turf.

Maybe the video again will refresh your memory if your clozapine won't?

Media Tags are no longer supported

BETTER?
HOW ABOUT THIS

Media Tags are no longer supported

This lady and her family are hamas?

Given the circumstances I'm not sure that IslamOnline jouralism is the most impartial.

Apparently neither is time, or BBC, or skyTV or Aljazeera, any source that doesn't agree with you isn't partial..

do us all a favor and buzz off.. I am running on zero tolerance~!

[Azy]

Really like what, the video with several children with bullets riddled across their chest was in the lines of an anime?

That says nothing about the circumstances except that they are now dead. What evidence is there that the scenario was played out as suggested?

Your self dreamt fantasies are indeed alot more convincing than seeing the colonial settler cockroach state fire at everything including U.N convoys -- sold to the nearest gullible turd.. that would be on a zionist forum so how about you take leave there?

During a military conflict taking place in the streets of your city would you lead your family outside to eat breakfast?

Maybe the video again will refresh your memory if your clozapine won't?

Maybe if you posted something that had relevance to the specific article in question.
I'm sure you've also seen the videos of Hamas taking children as shields and firing from UN positions, as well as the reports of gun battles with Fatah inside a hospital.

[MO783]

too sad

imsad

[S1aveofA11ah]

The whole world knows whats going on in Palestine and what went on. There is no need to now start up side issues about whos reporting what and what not.

[Najm]

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu


New evidence of Gaza child deaths



Christian Fraser
BBC News, Gaza

Four-year-old Samar Abed Rabbu is a little girl with a captivating smile to melt the heart of the most hardened correspondent.

Samer's two sisters did not survive the attack

When we first came across her in the hospital in the Egyptian town of El-Arish, just over the border from Gaza, she was playing with an inflated surgical glove beneath the covers.
The doctors had puffed air into the glove, trying to distract her from the further pain they had to inflict inserting a drip.
Samar had been shot in the back at close range. The bullet damaged her spine, and she is unlikely to walk again.
At her bedside, her uncle Hassan told us the family had been ordered out of their home by Israeli soldiers who were shelling the neighbourhood.
A tank had parked in front of the house, where around 30 people were taking shelter.
The women and children - mother, grandmother and three little girls - came out waving a white flag and then, he said, an Israeli soldier came out of the tank and opened fire on the terrified procession.
Samar's two sisters, aged seven and two, were shot dead. The grandmother was hit in the arm and in the side, but has survived.

Young victims

One of the most alarming features of the conflict in Gaza is the number of child casualties. More than 400 were killed. Many had shrapnel or blast injuries sustained as the Israeli army battled Hamas militants in Gaza's densely populated civilian areas.
But the head of neurosurgery at the El-Arish hospital, Dr Ahmed Yahia, told me that brain scans made it clear that a number of the child victims had been shot at close range.
Samar's uncle said the soldier who had shot his niece was just 15m (49ft) away. ''How could they not see they were shooting at children?'' he asked.
When we finally got into Gaza, we tried to investigate further.
Finding a house, even with an address, in a neighbourhood that has been bombed into oblivion, where all landmarks have been obliterated and even the locals cannot find their bearings, is not easy.
But we eventually met a man who knew Samar's family and took us to the family house, or what was left of it.
The four-storey building has been concertinaed to the ground.
Father's agony
Khalid Abed Rabbu wears on his face all the pain of Israel's bloody three-week campaign in Gaza. In his hand he carried the teddy bear that had belonged to his daughter, Samar's six-year-old sister.
Its head had been blown off, apparently in the same burst of gunfire that had cut his daughter in half.
He described the events of that night almost identically to his brother. There were minor discrepancies, but he too believes his daughters were shot in cold blood.
"There were soldiers leaning against the tank eating crisps," he said. "But then one of them jumped down and walked towards the house with an M16 automatic rifle."
He showed me a photo of his eldest daughter under shrouds in the mortuary.
"What has my family done to Israel," he cried. "What has Samar done to deserve all this pain?"
We have put the family's allegations to the Israelis. So far they have told us that they can not comment on specific cases.
Their spokesman said they had made every effort to limit civilian casualties but were fighting a terrorist organisation that often uses the civilian population as cover.

Troubled neighbourhood


The Israelis say is evidence that on many occasions when civilians were killed their troops had been responding to incoming fire.
There are reports of the neighbourhood where the family lived, known as Ezbat Abed Rabbu, had been used by militant fighters in the past. During an incursion in the spring of 2008 the Israelis took over Khalid's house for two days.
But Khalid insists he is not Hamas, he is not a fighter. He said he worked for the Palestinian Authority and is a member of Fatah, Hamas's political rivals.

"There were no fighters here," he added, picking up crisp bags printed with Hebrew lettering that the soldiers seemed to have left behind. "Do you think soldiers eat crisps sitting on their tanks when there is incoming fire?"

Samar's father and her uncle have not spoken to each other since she left Gaza for treatment in Egypt, yet in separate interviews they told us the three girls were outside the house, in plain view, when they were shot.
We toured the part of Jabaliya where the Abed Rabbus lived. In an area that must cover at least a square mile, there are no houses left - no mosques, no factories and no orchards. The entire neighbourhood has been devastated.


It may be true that fighters were hiding in the alleys of Jabaliya. It is possible that rockets were being fired from here towards Israel.
But for the people who lived here, this is a story of wanton destruction. The world must now decide whether the Israeli action here was justified under the rules of war.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...nt/7843307.stm


FiAmaaniAllah

[Noora_z3]

Four-year-old Samar Abed Rabbu is a little girl with a captivating smile to melt the heart of the most hardened correspondent.[/I]

Samer's two sisters did not survive the attack

[[/I]

This is OUTRAGEOUSE!!

[Tony]

Im currently ina kids ward at bri listening to children crying in pain.to think of the sons of pig abusers of israel shootng infants makes me sick,they should be killed and so help me Allah I want to do it

[جوري]

That says nothing about the circumstances except that they are now dead. What evidence is there that the scenario was played out as suggested?

Do you have intact senses or does seeing, and reading the same issues as the rest of the world translate in your mind to something askew and later hurled in the same tautological fashion we've come to expect from you with every thread?-- I sometimes wonder why you choose to humiliate yourself post after post. Did you not get enough positive reinforcement as a child? or are you incapable of letting go of your cognitive conservatism?

During a military conflict taking place in the streets of your city would you lead your family outside to eat breakfast?

Does it matter? as it seems, even staying at home one isn't safe.

Media Tags are no longer supported

does the BBC describe 'scenario' in terms you can believe with this one, or is it too played out in a suggestive fashion? must we also yield to your tautological approach as it seems simply sitting for a new briefing alludes you?

Maybe if you posted something that had relevance to the specific article in question.

lol.. coming from you, is rather refreshing!

I'm sure you've also seen the videos of Hamas taking children as shields and firing from UN positions, as well as the reports of gun battles with Fatah inside a hospital.

I leave the 'scenario playing out as suggested' to professional chumps such as your person since the 'believability' of an event is more emotionally based rather than on facts!

all the best

[bibleblevr]

shouldn't we be praying for the souls of those evil solders. the father has to deal with grief but those soldiers must be most strongly griped by evil If they are so far from God's will they must be very miserable.

"pray for those who hurt you and do good to them that curse you"

[جوري]

not to worry, have your prayers, your support and your tax money!

[saba muslimah]

Oh Title of thread...!! Give us many question...??? just mind jolting & heart break.......:cry: wat u done with Innocent kid..!!! Do u have any answer rediculos Israelies AstughFirullah :cry::cry:

[memories]

:sl:

Now zionists are doing what Hitler didn´t to the bitter end, massacre and genozide others like nazists did before.

Now please... this is a bit extreme alegations. as for this story of soldiers using a boy as target practice Id like to see reliable sources confirming this, This is only depicting the views of one side, of course ''stories'' makes people mad wich in the end only increases the hate and violence.. but we have to take view of the whole situation, Im sure that thier are many israeli children that died cruel death in suicide bomb attacks, some going to school... others going to meet family.... On Both side these stories can be found. lots of hate, anguish and fear in this thread, lets all stay strong.

Regards

Edit: the topic starts off in a very subjective manner '' israeli pigs''
How bout posting a topic next time about how the palestinians are launching rockets from schools, mosqs and kindergardens,and using these childern as human shields. pherhaps their would be less '' dad im dying''!!

['Abd-al Latif]

Now please... this is a bit extreme alegations. as for this story of soldiers using a boy as target practice Id like to see reliable sources confirming this, This is only depicting the views of one side, of course ''stories'' makes people mad wich in the end only increases the hate and violence.. but we have to take view of the whole situation, Im sure that thier are many israeli children that died cruel death in suicide bomb attacks, some going to school... others going to meet family.... On Both side these stories can be found. lots of hate, anguish and fear in this thread, lets all stay strong.

Regards

Edit: the topic starts off in a very subjective manner '' israeli pigs''
How bout posting a topic next time about how the palestinians are launching rockets from schools, mosqs and kindergardens,and using these childern as human shields. pherhaps their would be less '' dad im dying''!!

Yeah 'stories'. How about looking into history and seeing who the Israeli land belongs to?? How about you look at what these pigs have done compared to what the Palestinians are doing in order to get their land back?? Why don't you look at the rape and murder and other crimes against humanity these pigs have done?!

1000+ Palestinians died the last time the war went on and all you ever hear is an israeli bleet about the small hole in his wall or about a rocket that didn't hit anyone on an illegal occupied land that these people live on. The amount of Israeli's that have died are nothing compared the women and children that have died in the past 70 years!

Are these your terrorists?!?

[FatimaAsSideqah]

:sl:

I soooo angry!! Subhan'Allah!!! :raging::raging:

:cry::cry: its just heartbreak to see those pictures of death kids!!

:enough!:

[memories]

ok... But whos to blame, I heard that Palestinians are killing their own populace as well witht their rockets ''A rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in northern Gaza and killing two schoolgirls''

Now please Abd al latif coniser this point of view: During the cold war the countries that were under the Iron curtain didnt fire rockets at the soviets because they knew that this would of resulted in retaliation and in a blood bath, The palestinians ought to do the same, Firering rockets from urban areas, near schools mosqs at a neighbor much much more powerfull than them is a recipe for disaster, its like If I went and started trowing rocks at an elephant, he would charge me and crush me. The pictures you have shown me are terrible, but im sure I can find the same amount of pictures on atrocities the palestinians have commited. like I said, both sides are to blame.

Regards.




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473066,00.html

[FatimaAsSideqah]

After seeing for himself how Israel's separation wall intrudes into Palestinian territories and divide families, Pope Benedict XVI hoped the towering barrier would be "taken down". (Reuters)

http://www.islamonline.net/English/M...09/05/05.shtml

['Abd-al Latif]

ok... But whos to blame, I heard that Palestinians are killing their own populace as well witht their rockets ''A rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in northern Gaza and killing two schoolgirls''

Now please Abd al latif coniser this point of view: During the cold war the countries that were under the Iron curtain didnt fire rockets at the soviets because they knew that this would of resulted in retaliation and in a blood bath, The palestinians ought to do the same, Firering rockets from urban areas, near schools mosqs at a neighbor much much more powerfull than them is a recipe for disaster, its like If I went and started trowing rocks at an elephant, he would charge me and crush me. The pictures you have shown me are terrible, but im sure I can find the same amount of pictures on atrocities the palestinians have commited. like I said, both sides are to blame.

Regards.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473066,00.html

If the palestinians remain quiet then it will only make things more difficult for them because the women will still get raped, women and children will still be killed and the men will still be detained and tortured without reason. This has been going on for decades and the only ones who testify to these crimes are those who live in Palestine. They are trapped their like animals and they undergo all sorts of harm. For instance, during the war last year a Palestinian woman and her child were trapped alone in a building with Israeli soldiers surrounding the area. The news didn't say what happened when the army made it inside but the soldiers allowed the mother and child to leave, only for me and you to find out that they were both shot dead by a sniper waiting outside. The excuse of the Israeli army was 'miscommunication'. Nonsense!

Israel blabbers about their men being detained by Hamas yet they fail to mention 1000s of men, women and children detained by Israel or even the oppression the muslims suffer in Israel - even though all of Israel is actually Palestinian territory!

The Palestinians have no option but to fight. When you're in a land where Israel blocks all entry or exit from sea, air and land with the aim of removing Palestine and it's people of the map and are constantly being attack from each side do you just sit around? Even children are forced to fight back, when you see your own parents being killed infront of your eyes and Israeli soldiers taking pictures to celebrate then even children will pick up a gun to fight.

Oh and by the way if you don't want to believe me that Israel's sole aim is to exterminate all Palestinians then look at what Israel proudly boasted after the war:

For this picture above, read this:

“Let every Arab mother know that her son’s fate is in my hands!”

[Zafran]

ok... But whos to blame, I heard that Palestinians are killing their own populace as well witht their rockets ''A rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in northern Gaza and killing two schoolgirls''

Now please Abd al latif coniser this point of view: During the cold war the countries that were under the Iron curtain didnt fire rockets at the soviets because they knew that this would of resulted in retaliation and in a blood bath, The palestinians ought to do the same, Firering rockets from urban areas, near schools mosqs at a neighbor much much more powerfull than them is a recipe for disaster, its like If I went and started trowing rocks at an elephant, he would charge me and crush me. The pictures you have shown me are terrible, but im sure I can find the same amount of pictures on atrocities the palestinians have commited. like I said, both sides are to blame.

Regards.




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473066,00.html

LOL FOX NEWS..................... You have to me kidding me - does somebody actually take them seriously??? May God help us.

I have to say it shows where you rely for your information and it doesnt look Good. Both sides are to blame yet you seem to love Isreal more then Hamas.

[AntiKarateKid]

People Killed by Palestinian Rockets in history: 60-80
People Killed by Israel: Tens of thousands, maybe more than 100000

Don't bring up that aimless rocket bullcrap, Israel has tanks, jets, and a modern army.

[memories]

''If the palestinians remain quiet then it will only make things more difficult for them because the women will still get raped, women and children will still be killed and the men will still be detained and tortured without reason.''

Abd al latif Id like to see some proof of these aleguations, (rape,murder,torture)

''Don't bring up that aimless rocket bullcrap, Israel has tanks, jets, and a modern army.''

Then why would they provoke the modern army? it seemes like a bad move to me.

''Oh and by the way if you don't want to believe me that Israel's sole aim is to exterminate all Palestinians then look at what Israel proudly boasted after the war:''

what about the flag burning from the palestinians etc? isnt that pretty hostile also?

[HopeFul]

OUch! May Alah punish the opressors with the worst and most humiliating punishments and May He reward the victims with His Grace..Ameen

[muslimah_online]

if only i hv the money, the right job and everything, i would take them all to live with me. israelis soldiers are evil.

[GuestFellow]

Reading that article, Israeli soldiers make me sick. They killed so many innocent civillians for no reason.

The rest of the world need to wake up.

[Tony]

May these israeli zionist sons of pigs die screaming and rot in hell

[ottomanpalestin]

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[jeff d]

Praise be to Allah the merciful!! This is an absolutely horrible atrocity. No child would deserve this. I am a Reverend of Universal Life Church, and I believe in the act of mercy. I will pray for the young boy's family. This is a horror that cannot be undone. I wish more could open their eyes to understand that we all are the children of Allah (God) I hope that the All Merciful will pass judgement on those that thrive on hate. I have a few friends that are from the West Bank, and they have lived through too much horror, death, famine, and of course, left without a home. I want the killing to stop. I want to see my Palestinian brothers be able to live in peace, and in the comfort of the arms of Allah. Sincerely, Rev. Jeff D.

[- IqRa -]

****ing *******s

[index123]

*Sigh these people wasting away there own souls.. It really is an act of disrespect to themselves. The kids there surely going to heaven, these *******s would be toasting all for eternity, just for 2 seconds of perverted entertainment. Have you ever opened your oven and pondered on what it would like to be inside? can you immagine they will have to crawl into something similar when they die, and they would go in face first. Ouch there gonna be sorry!