/* */

PDA

View Full Version : What is Gaza?



Woodrow
01-18-2009, 05:01 PM
I am writing this just to give some insight into what Gaza is and perhaps help explain why it brings about such strong emotions for Palestinians and Muslims in General.

In tems of real estate, it is quite small. Only 360 km² .



For comparison Greater London is 1579 km² , New York City is 790 km2, Rapid City SD is 115.7 km2 I mention Rapid City because it is considered to be a very small city.

Now why is there such a big fuss over such a small region?

Because it is in effect a prison camp and the residents are Palestinians exiled from their homes in what is now Israel. also even this crowed piece of real estate is slowly being taken away.


Environment - current issues:
desertification; salination of fresh water; sewage treatment; water-borne disease; soil degradation; depletion and contamination of underground water resources
Geography - note:
there are 25 Israeli settlements and civilian land use sites in the Gaza Strip (February 2002 est.)
People Gaza Strip
Population:
1,376,289
note: in addition, there are more than 5,000 Israeli settlers in the Gaza Strip (July 2005 est.)
The people are 100% dependent upon Israel for basic necessities such as water, electricity, sewarge disposal. The do not even have their own currency or means of importing/exporting except through Israel.

Currency (code):
new Israeli shekel (ILS)

Population:
1,376,289

Refugees and internally displaced persons:
refugees (country of origin): 922,674 (Palestinian Refugees

Economy - overview:
High population density, limited land access, and strict internal and external controls have kept economic conditions in the Gaza Strip - the smaller of the two areas under the Palestinian Authority - even more degraded than in the West Bank. An anticipated Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005 may offer some medium-term opportunities for economic growth. The beginning of the second intifadah in September 2000 sparked an economic downturn, largely the result of Israeli closure policies; these policies, which were imposed in response to security interests in Israel, disrupted labor and commodity relationships with the Gaza Strip. In 2001, and even more severely in 2003, Israeli military measures in Palestinian Authority areas resulted in the destruction of much capital plant, the disruption of administrative structure, and widespread business closures. Including the West Bank, the UN estimates that more than 100,000 Palestinians out of the 125,000 who used to work in Israel or in joint industrial zones have lost their jobs. International aid of $2 billion to Gaza Strip and the West Bank in 2004 prevented the complete collapse of the economy and allowed some reforms in the government's financial operations. Meanwhile unemployment has continued at half the labor force.
Source for the Quotes:http://geography.about.com/library/cia/blcgaza.htm
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
aamirsaab
01-18-2009, 05:07 PM
:sl:
Good thread.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-18-2009, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
also even this crowed piece of real estate is slowly being taken away.
Is that even true? Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. What have they slowly been taking away from Gaza strip?
Reply

Woodrow
01-18-2009, 06:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Is that even true? Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. What have they slowly been taking away from Gaza strip?
I think the best answer for that will wait and see what the latest loss is after the truce is finalized.

In the meantime:

http://members5.boardhost.com/medial...232143908.html
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
sister herb
01-18-2009, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Is that even true? Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. What have they slowly been taking away from Gaza strip?
:sl:

If they really withdrew from Gaza, why they still controll all borders of Gaza; on the ground, air and sea?

:X

Don´t look too much news from YLE or Helsingin Sanomat, dear Suomipoika. They lies to you as like Pravda before.

:statisfie
Reply

sister herb
01-18-2009, 07:12 PM
:D For others as information Finland = Suomi.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-18-2009, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I think the best answer for that will wait and see what the latest loss is after the truce is finalized.

In the meantime:

http://members5.boardhost.com/medial...232143908.html
Personally I oppose the settlement building in West Bank. Are you trying to tell me that people are mad about Gaza strip because of what is happening in West Bank?

None of the prison like conditions would exist if Hamas and friends would leave Israel alone. I have very hard time understanding why randomly shooting rockets into Israel isnt such a big deal to so many (if I remember right, 6000 since 2005 withdrawal). Fire that actually has killed and wounded peole, women and children included. Those who suffer most from the actions of Hamas are unfortunately palestinians themselves when the innevitable retaliation from Israel comes. Why cant Israel try to stop Hamas from smugling rockets into Gaza that are used to attack them? Why is that so wrong and evil?

Basically I see your original post as saying people are mad at Israel over Gaza because Israel defends itself from regular attacks from Gaza. They havent taken anything from this small real estate since 2005 withdrawal and I am totally convinced that blockade, siege and prison like conditions would gradually go away once the attacks from Gaza stop.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-18-2009, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

If they really withdrew from Gaza, why they still controll all borders of Gaza; on the ground, air and sea?

:X

Don´t look too much news from YLE or Helsingin Sanomat, dear Suomipoika. They lies to you as like Pravda before.

:statisfie
I dont like Yle or HS much but somehow I trust them more than someone who shows picture of a man holding anti-tank rocket and old muddy track as proof for dozens of destroyed Israeli tanks.

Besides, I think both Yle and HS have reported at one time or another that Israel controls the borders in Gaza and blockade it.
Reply

sister herb
01-18-2009, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Besides, I think both Yle and HS have reported at one time or another that Israel controls the borders in Gaza and blockade it.
So why you claim then: Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, if you know it is not true but lie of zionists?
Reply

Suomipoika
01-18-2009, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
So why you claim then: Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, if you know it is not true but lie of zionists?
Because dismantling settlements and withdrawing from Gaza and controlling its borders to prevent weapons from being smuggled in are two different things.

Besides I think Egypt controls the border between Gaza and Egypt.
Reply

sister herb
01-18-2009, 08:03 PM
:sl:

What is left from Gaza?

Ruins of destroyed mosques, homes, schools?


After the cease-fire, Palestinian climbing plant the green flag on the rubble of the bombed mosque in Gaza by the Zionist army. She talks to her even my brothers and sisters. The faith of Islam in Palestine and their just cause now seems unbreakable.
Reply

aamirsaab
01-18-2009, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
...Those who suffer most from the actions of Hamas are unfortunately palestinians themselves when the innevitable retaliation from Israel comes. Why cant Israel try to stop Hamas from smugling rockets into Gaza that are used to attack them? Why is that so wrong and evil?....
The problem is when Israel's government attacks and kills civilians then passes the blame onto hamas, citing terrorism (which is EXACTLY what the israeli army is doing when it retaliates!).

If the Israeli government pushed for discussion and negotiation with hamas instead of blowing gaza to bits then I'd say ok hamas is being a real jackass and I wouldn't be as harsh on Israel. However, it was Israel who broke the ceasefire and then had the nerve to blame it on hamas...that's just outright bull crap. So on the one hand we've got hamas causing civilian deaths (which is completely forbidden in Islam) but we've also got Israel causing civilian deaths (more, in fact) and then blaming it on the opposition!

Both are as bad as each other but you cannot possibly agree with Israel when it not only lies about the situation but also passes the buck onto Hamas when itself cocks up.

Until Israel stops de-housing palestinians and up-rooting settlers, Hamas will continue to exist - not just as a goverment party, but as an idea. And everyone knows, you cannot kill ideas.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-18-2009, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
However, it was Israel who broke the ceasefire and then had the nerve to blame it on hamas...that's just outright bull crap.
You are aware that there wasnt single month last year when rockets and mortar shells werent fired into Israel from Gaza? Ill say that again, not a single month when Israel wasnt targeted with rockets and mortars from Gaza. How long do they have to suffer this, during so callled ceasefire? Perhaps they also should allow palestinians to dig tunnels and kidnap their soldiers, because if they try to prevent it, like early november, they break the ceasefire. How close do they need to allow these tunnels to appear before they can respond?

So on the one hand we've got hamas causing civilian deaths (which is completely forbidden in Islam) but we've also got Israel causing civilian deaths (more, in fact) and then blaming it on the opposition!
If there was no attacks from Gaza there would be no civilian deaths in Gaza. Each and every death in Gaza strip for the past weeks/years is the fault of Hamas and the likes of them. Its really shockingly simple: stop firing rockets into Israel. I believe 100% that both civilian deaths and prison like conditions will go away once this happens.

Both are as bad as each other but you cannot possibly agree with Israel when it not only lies about the situation but also passes the buck onto Hamas when itself cocks up.
Amazingly enough this is the first conflict involving Israel where I find myself agreeing with them quite strongly. Id be lying if Id say this forum didnt have quite a strong effect on pushing me towards that direction, years ago I used to be quite anti-Israel. So yes, I agree with Israel, they arent perfect and the settlement building is wrong but they have every right to defend their civilians, their soldiers and their rightful homelands. If Gazans and palestinians want to improve their situation the first dreadful step is to leave Israel alone and accept that its not going anywhere.
Reply

sister herb
01-18-2009, 10:51 PM
:sl:

During so-called ceasefire, what only Hamas followed; during that time zionists continued they attacks against Palestinian civilians, both in Gaza and the West Bank, murdering civilians, destroying homes, kidnapping people and torturing them in they jails. Also they kept economical siege and kept borders closed. In cause of this siege hundreds of patients died; partly because they couldn´t travel to other countries for get treatment, zionists didn´t let medicines to Gaza.

"Hamas, Islamic Jihad set terms for mutual ceasefire, demand Israeli withdrawal from Gaza

Israeli troops withdraw from southern Gaza City, vacating Salah Ad-Din road!

;D Go away and never return...
Reply

aamirsaab
01-18-2009, 11:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
You are aware that there wasnt single month last year when rockets and mortar shells werent fired into Israel from Gaza? Ill say that again, not a single month when Israel wasnt targeted with rockets and mortars from Gaza. How long do they have to suffer this, during so callled ceasefire? Perhaps they also should allow palestinians to dig tunnels and kidnap their soldiers, because if they try to prevent it, like early november, they break the ceasefire. How close do they need to allow these tunnels to appear before they can respond?
And did Israel open any negotiation channels with hamas? No. They responded in kind and killed more than hamas did in a shorter period of time. Who is the greater evil here?

If there was no attacks from Gaza there would be no civilian deaths in Gaza. Each and every death in Gaza strip for the past weeks/years is the fault of Hamas and the likes of them. Its really shockingly simple: stop firing rockets into Israel. I believe 100% that both civilian deaths and prison like conditions will go away once this happens.
Hamas exist as a direct result of Israels government stealing land. If Israel gives the land back and stops trying to steal what little is left of palestinian land I'm pretty sure Hamas will stop firing rockets. If they don't - then fine, impeach them or whatever it is you do to oppressive regimes these days.


...So yes, I agree with Israel, they arent perfect and the settlement building is wrong but they have every right to defend their civilians, their soldiers and their rightful homelands.
But at what cost? Israel's army has already killed 1000+ people (majority being civilians) in less than a month. Hamas as a movement only gains momentum from this. Israeli lives are spared for the short term whilst thousands of palestinians die - and the so called cause of it all gets stronger and will as a direct result come back harder. This is not victory - this is a loss.

If Gazans and palestinians want to improve their situation the first dreadful step is to leave Israel alone and accept that its not going anywhere.
Hamas is the only thing keeping palestine on the world map. I don't particularly like that the situation has come to this (I have a lot of resentment for other muslim countries that are not even lifting a finger to help their fellow muslim brothers and sisters - some don't even have the guts to provide lip service!) but it is true: Hamas is the only road block palestine has left.

Remove hamas, say good bye 1.3 million people and the rest of palestine and say hello to the biggest terrorist regime on earth that just got away with mass murder/genocide, theft, hypocricy and deceit.

And just to clarify: I don't support hamas (in fact, I condemn them and any other regime that sees fit to kill civilians), but I do support what they fight for: Palestine.
Reply

Woodrow
01-19-2009, 04:54 AM
I agree with Bro. Aamirsaab fully and even more with this statement:

And just to clarify: I don't support hamas (in fact, I condemn them and any other regime that sees fit to kill civilians), but I do support what they fight for: Palestine.
Gaza is a prison. Prisoners like to escape by any means possible. As bad as Hamas is, it is the only visible light to the people of Gaza.

The way for us to end the need for Hamas, is for us to provide the people in Gaza what Hamas offers, except in a better method. The problem is nobody seems to know what is a better method that will work.

Think, what can you and I do to provide the light that the people in Gaza believe Hamas shows them.

1. Make their plight known to the world

2. Do what we can to keep from supporting zionist aggression

3. Let our feelings be known to the leaders of our perspective countries.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-19-2009, 01:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I am writing this just to give some insight into what Gaza is and perhaps help explain why it brings about such strong emotions for Palestinians and Muslims in General.

In tems of real estate, it is quite small. Only 360 km² .
What was the population of Gaza in 1948?
Reply

Woodrow
01-19-2009, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What was the population of Gaza in 1948?
Approxiamatly 60,000 to 80,000.

Sources:

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/a...737842919.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza

In 1997 the population was Population (1997 estimate) 353,632. Which is acknowledged to be 6 times it's 1948 population, in the same source below
Source: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573091/gaza.html
Reply

Suomipoika
01-19-2009, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
And did Israel open any negotiation channels with hamas? No. They responded in kind and killed more than hamas did in a shorter period of time. Who is the greater evil here?
So Israel broke the ceasefire because they didnt initiate negotiations with Hamas ? I dont quite follow that logic. Why doesnt it apply both ways? By for starters, I dont know, Hamas accepting Israels right to exist?

Hamas exist as a direct result of Israels government stealing land. If Israel gives the land back and stops trying to steal what little is left of palestinian land I'm pretty sure Hamas will stop firing rockets. If they don't - then fine, impeach them or whatever it is you do to oppressive regimes these days.
There is no excuse to land stealing however Israel withdrew from Gaza. Giving that land back apparently ammounted to nothing and only thing that caused was increased rocket fire. I just dont find your claim believable.

But at what cost? Israel's army has already killed 1000+ people (majority being civilians) in less than a month. Hamas as a movement only gains momentum from this. Israeli lives are spared for the short term whilst thousands of palestinians die - and the so called cause of it all gets stronger and will as a direct result come back harder. This is not victory - this is a loss.

Hamas is the only thing keeping palestine on the world map. I don't particularly like that the situation has come to this (I have a lot of resentment for other muslim countries that are not even lifting a finger to help their fellow muslim brothers and sisters - some don't even have the guts to provide lip service!) but it is true: Hamas is the only road block palestine has left.

Remove hamas, say good bye 1.3 million people and the rest of palestine and say hello to the biggest terrorist regime on earth that just got away with mass murder/genocide, theft, hypocricy and deceit.

And just to clarify: I don't support hamas (in fact, I condemn them and any other regime that sees fit to kill civilians), but I do support what they fight for: Palestine.
So you dont support Hamas. Israel is wrong when it resorts to violence and doesnt open negotiations with Hamas. Hamas is the only road block Palestine has left. Not for example Fatah, palestinian group that has opened negotiations with Israel, that has tried to avoid violence while negotiating with Israel.

I find this bit inconsistent: Israel is chastised for violence and the lack of negotiations but the only road block to Palestinian existence on map arent those who negotiate but the ones that keep the war going by purposefully targetting civilians and provoking Israel to attack them.

And at what cost? Over 1000+ people death most of whom are civilians in 3 weeks, who knows how many in all these year, not to mention all the poverty and prison like conditions. What the road block has caused is rather strong unity in Israel and the sence that they are justified in their actions and as seen past weeks very heavy direct results. Hamas isnt a road block, its a target sign for bombs and misery. The only thing they have really been blocking all these years is public world support for palestinians in any meaningful way.
Reply

MO783
01-19-2009, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE=sister harb;1083579]:sl:

What is left from Gaza?

Ruins of destroyed mosques, homes, schools?


very ture

such a shame

:cry:
Reply

Thinker
01-19-2009, 04:01 PM
Why are there so many children in Gaza. Every time I see a TV clip of Gaza the streets are full of young boys. I found a source on the net suggesting that the average family (number of children) size in every European country and the US is between 2 and 3; in Gaza it’s 6! I found the below statistic; the results below of a Gallup pole.

Palestinians: Preferred Number of Children According to Region
.......................West Bank...........East Jerusalem...................Gaza Strip
5 or more ..............43%...................28%........... ....................54%
3 to 4...................46%...................56%..... ..........................35%
1 to 2...................10%...................14%..... ..........................10%
None.....................1%......................2 %................................1%

Why do people living in the worst and most dangerous conditions want to have the most children?
Reply

aamirsaab
01-19-2009, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
So Israel broke the ceasefire because they didnt initiate negotiations with Hamas ? I dont quite follow that logic. Why doesnt it apply both ways? By for starters, I dont know, Hamas accepting Israels right to exist?
That's not what I said. If Israel wants to take the moral high ground on this matter (which it likes to keep claiming in various interviews), then negotiations should have taken place.


There is no excuse to land stealing however Israel withdrew from Gaza. Giving that land back apparently ammounted to nothing and only thing that caused was increased rocket fire. I just dont find your claim believable.
I'm talking about all of the land Israeli government stole. Click me and find out how much land palestininans have left. Hamas exist to prevent any more land going to Israel.

I find this bit inconsistent: Israel is chastised for violence and the lack of negotiations but the only road block to Palestinian existence on map arent those who negotiate but the ones that keep the war going by purposefully targetting civilians and provoking Israel to attack them.
A negotiation can only take place when both sides participate. If fatah is prepared to negotiate then why is not Israel?

...The only thing they have really been blocking all these years is public world support for palestinians in any meaningful way.
I will agree that Hamas hasn't done a good job at gaining public global support (though, I don't think they themselves care about that) but, Israel shares a lot of the blame too (i.e. when it passes the blame onto Hamas in every interview).
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-19-2009, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Approxiamatly 60,000 to 80,000.

Sources:

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/a...737842919.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza

In 1997 the population was Population (1997 estimate) 353,632. Which is acknowledged to be 6 times it's 1948 population, in the same source below
Source: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573091/gaza.html
So it would seem it's not entirely Israel's fault Gaza has turned into an overpopulated prison.
Reply

Woodrow
01-19-2009, 04:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
So it would seem it's not entirely Israel's fault Gaza has turned into an overpopulated prison.
Except if you understand that most of Gaza is refugees. the nearly 1,000,000 increase from 1997 to today was by people that went in as refugees after being forced from their homes. they currently live in refugee camps. Gaza is a prison.

From the UN itself:

The Gaza Strip is unique amongst UNRWA's five fields of operations as the majority of its population is refugees and over half of the refugees live in eight camps. Most of the people who fled to the Gaza Strip as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war were from Jaffa, towns and villages south of Jaffa, and from the Beersheva area in the Negev. In all, some 200,000 refugees came to Gaza, whose original inhabitants numbered only 80,000. Such an influx severely burdened this narrow strip of land; an area of only 360 square kilometers. Over three-quarters of the current estimated population of some 1.4 million are registered refugees; representing 22.42 per cent of all UNRWA registered Palestine refugees.
Source: http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/gaza.html

A refuge is not a person who leaves his homeland by choice.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-19-2009, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Except if you understand that most of Gaza is refugees. the nearly 1,000,000 increase from 1997 to today was by people that went in as refugees after being forced from their homes. they currently live in refugee camps. Gaza is a prison.

From the UN itself:



Source: http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/gaza.html

A refuge is not a person who leaves his homeland by choice.
Are you sure about that, I'm aware that roughly 700 thousand people left their homes during the 1948 war, but I had no idea 1 million fled to Gaza in 1997. Where did they live before? In Israel? Who or what made them flee their houses?
Reply

Suomipoika
01-19-2009, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
That's not what I said. If Israel wants to take the moral high ground on this matter (which it likes to keep claiming in various interviews), then negotiations should have taken place.
Hamas (or friends) breaks ceasefire but Israel doesnt have moral high ground because both sides arent particularly intrested in talking with eachother?

I'm talking about all of the land Israeli government stole. Click me and find out how much land palestininans have left. Hamas exist to prevent any more land going to Israel.
Palestinians arent the only ones who have lost land, most other people and nations, like Finland, have accepted it and moved on. I cant say how happy I am that we didnt have a road block like Hamas who kept firing and provoking Stalin. Trying to take Karelia back today would be extremely wrong (not to mention suicidal). Look at us today, and look at palestinians today, both of us lost land in the 40's.

Not to mention palestinians and Israels arab neighbours arent exactly blameless little angels with how it all turned out. What was the point of attacking Israel repeatedly several times. Sorry for Godwin but its almost like Germany claiming Kaliningrad/Königsberg back.

A negotiation can only take place when both sides participate. If fatah is prepared to negotiate then why is not Israel?

I will agree that Hamas hasn't done a good job at gaining public global support (though, I don't think they themselves care about that) but, Israel shares a lot of the blame too (i.e. when it passes the blame onto Hamas in every interview).
Israel has been ready to begin negotiations with Fatah. They even released palestinian prisoners as a good sign gesture. There is probably something to be learned there when Israel negotiates with those who are ready to recognice them and dont constantly fire rockets at them. Go figure.

Click me to see the evil Zionist Empire to release prisoners due to heroism of Hamas.

But nice way of evading my point. Why Hamas is the road block that saves Palestine and not Fatah? Why the one who resorts to violence instead of the one who is ready to negotiate? Violence, which when used by Israel you condemn very strongly, but not when used by Hamas, then its a heroic road block defense.
Reply

جوري
01-19-2009, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

Why do people living in the worst and most dangerous conditions want to have the most children?
Isn't it obvious?
Reply

Woodrow
01-19-2009, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Are you sure about that, I'm aware that roughly 700 thousand people left their homes during the 1948 war, but I had no idea 1 million fled to Gaza in 1997. Where did they live before? In Israel? Who or what made them flee their houses?
the 1,000,000 did not come in just 1997 I stated from 1997 to the present.

From the UN again:

View the entire slide show. Although it only covers the first 45 years.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/photos/long-journey/01.html


The refugees were residents of the land that became known as Israel. they left their homes and much of their belongings as they they lost their homes to the influx of settlers into Israel.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-19-2009, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
the 1,000,000 did not come in just 1997 I stated from 1997 to the present.

From the UN again:

View the entire slide show. Although it only covers the first 45 years.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/photos/long-journey/01.html


The refugees were residents of the land that became known as Israel. they left their homes and much of their belongings as they they lost their homes to the influx of settlers into Israel.
1 million in 10 years? Why did they leave? where did they leave from? Why is it that the liberal media isn't blaming Israel for this?
Reply

Woodrow
01-19-2009, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
1 million in 10 years? Why did they leave? where did they leave from? Why is it that the liberal media isn't blaming Israel for this?
Very good question. Also why hasn't the UN taken action against Israel? Why did this past three weeks get handled by an Israeli military campaign, when most of Gaza's population is in UN refugee camps? Shouldn't this have been a UN campaign rather then an Israeli one?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-19-2009, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Very good question. Also why hasn't the UN taken action against Israel? Why did this past three weeks get handled by an Israeli military campaign, when most of Gaza's population is in UN refugee camps? Shouldn't this have been a UN campaign rather then an Israeli one?
I don't think the UN would be willing to dismantle a terrorist network.
All they do is give charity and throw in an extra rape or two.
Anyway, don't change the subject, do you have evidence that 1 million have been expelled to Gaza from Israel in the past 10 years.
Reply

Trumble
01-19-2009, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
the 1,000,000 did not come in just 1997 I stated from 1997 to the present.
Sorry, Woodrow, but I can't find anything to support this claim, or anything remotely like it, either. Do you have a source?

Most of the population are 'official' refugees, yes... but that's because their parents and grandparents were, not because of some vast influx into Gaza from Israel over the last decade or so. That just never happened.
Reply

Woodrow
01-19-2009, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't think the UN would be willing to dismantle a terrorist network.
All they do is give charity and throw in an extra rape or two.
Anyway, don't change the subject, do you have evidence that 1 million have been expelled to Gaza from Israel in the past 10 years.
I believe the census reports found in the earlier links I posted show a 1,000,000 change in population between 1997 and 2008.

If not here are some more links.

OOOps I goofed. I apologize. I read the census date as 1996, When I just relooked it I should have said 1969, although the most recent census of the area was 1967

Gaza Population 1967
The 1967 census showed that 87,793 inhabitants lived in the city proper, while 30,479 lived in the refugee camp within municipal boundaries.

Source:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...7_0_07101.html

Since the People are Palestinian, it should be safe to assume they came from what was formerly Palestine. I doubt if many people would willingly give up their homes to go live in a refugee camp.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-19-2009, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I believe the census reports found in the earlier links I posted show a 1,000,000 change in population between 1997 and 2008.

If not here are some more links.

OOOps I goofed. I apologize. I read the census date as 1996, When I just relooked it I should have said 1969, although the most recent census of the area was 1967

Gaza Population 1967
The 1967 census showed that 87,793 inhabitants lived in the city proper, while 30,479 lived in the refugee camp within municipal boundaries.

Source:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...7_0_07101.html

Since the People are Palestinian, it should be safe to assume they came from what was formerly Palestine. I doubt if many people would willingly give up their homes to go live in a refugee camp.
What if they just had a lot of children?
I don't think a great many Palestinians were left in Israel after the naqba.
Reply

Woodrow
01-19-2009, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What if they just had a lot of children?
I don't think a great many Palestinians were left in Israel after the naqba.
Let me the Naqba occurred on May 14, 1948 and yes a large number of Palestinian Muslims entered Gaza as refugees on that date.

However, the CIA World Fact Book, gives the number of refugees in Palestine as being over 1, million and shows the country of origin as Palestine:


refugees (country of origin): 1.017 million (Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA)) (2007)

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/gz.html


It is difficult to find sources that specifically tell how many of those listed as refugees are actual refugees, or refugees born of refugees that had come to gaza. I believe it would be safe to say all refugees over the age of 60 were not born in Gaza. And all under 14 were born in Gaza. the 15-64 age group is going to be hard to calculate. But I believe a fair assumption would be 50/50

0-14 years: 44.7% (male 343,988/female 325,856)
15-64 years: 52.7% (male 403,855/female 386,681)
65 years and over: 2.7% (male 16,196/female 23,626) (2008 est.)

Source:https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/gz.html
So after all that it seems that about 40 percent the refugees were immigrants (from what is now Israel) and 60 percent born in Gaza

does it really make a difference if the refugees were born in Gaza or are the children of Refugees that were exiled from what was Palestine?
Reply

aamirsaab
01-20-2009, 01:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Hamas (or friends) breaks ceasefire but Israel doesnt have moral high ground because both sides arent particularly intrested in talking with eachother?
Israel broke the ceasefire.
Israel keeps claiming it has the high ground but persisted on bombing gaza.



Not to mention palestinians and Israels arab neighbours arent exactly blameless little angels with how it all turned out.
I'm not claiming they are. What I am saying is that if Israel wants to play the moral highground card (which it does in every interview), bombing civilians and blaming hamas isn't going to work.

What was the point of attacking Israel repeatedly several times. Sorry for Godwin but its almost like Germany claiming Kaliningrad/Königsberg back.
Ask Hamas not me. I already told you, I don't support hamas or their methodology. Only what they fight for.

Israel has been ready to begin negotiations with Fatah. They even released palestinian prisoners as a good sign gesture. There is probably something to be learned there when Israel negotiates with those who are ready to recognice them and dont constantly fire rockets at them. Go figure.
Again, I don't support hamas nor their methodology.

Ok that's cool. But again, you keep thinking I'm siding with hamas - I'm not!

But nice way of evading my point. Why Hamas is the road block that saves Palestine and not Fatah? Why the one who resorts to violence instead of the one who is ready to negotiate?
Your argument doesn't make sense: if someone is negotiating with you, why would that be a road block compared to someone who wants to bomb you?

Violence, which when used by Israel you condemn very strongly, but not when used by Hamas, then its a heroic road block defense.
Grrr you just don't get it. Just because I am anti Israeli doesn't make me pro hamas (especially when I outright condemn them!) - I condemn all violence from both parties. I'm slightly heavier on Israel since they keep claiming moral highground (which is blatantly untrue!)

But I'm open minded enough to realise that whilst hamas exists, so does palestinian land. If Hamas goes, so does palestine - Fatah, unfortunately, isn't going to save palestine by itself - not while Israel continues to get away with stealing land. I'm not proud of this by any means and I truly wish there was another way for palestine to remain palestine but ultimately, if Israel removes Hamas (the only real resistance from palestine hence I called it a road block) then Israel will remove palestine from the map. Fatah cannot stop an invasion by Israel, Hamas can.
Reply

sister herb
01-20-2009, 03:18 PM
:sl:

During two days of ceasefire zionists have already killed two Gazans and also killed two children killed by expolosives of them.

"IOF gunboats shell Gaza coasts"

What kind of ceasefire this is? At the same time zionists say they want to controll all aid to Gaza? If Gaza is not occupied area at all, what it belongs to zionists at all??????

I shouldn't!
Reply

Suomipoika
01-20-2009, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Israel broke the ceasefire.
Israel keeps claiming it has the high ground but persisted on bombing gaza.
Something I dont understand, why dont rocket/mortar attacks in july, august, september or october constitute as breaking the ceasefire?

Your argument doesn't make sense: if someone is negotiating with you, why would that be a road block compared to someone who wants to bomb you?

Grrr you just don't get it. Just because I am anti Israeli doesn't make me pro hamas (especially when I outright condemn them!) - I condemn all violence from both parties. I'm slightly heavier on Israel since they keep claiming moral highground (which is blatantly untrue!)

But I'm open minded enough to realise that whilst hamas exists, so does palestinian land. If Hamas goes, so does palestine - Fatah, unfortunately, isn't going to save palestine by itself - not while Israel continues to get away with stealing land. I'm not proud of this by any means and I truly wish there was another way for palestine to remain palestine but ultimately, if Israel removes Hamas (the only real resistance from palestine hence I called it a road block) then Israel will remove palestine from the map. Fatah cannot stop an invasion by Israel, Hamas can.
My arguement is this inconsistency that you seem to have in your position. You claim to condemn violence but on the same breath you praise a group that offers nothing but violence as the sole and only saviour of Palestine. Fatah with its long history of bitter fighting with Israel suddenly isnt going to save palestine, why? Because they try to negotiate and have resigned from/put on hold actions that you supposedly condemn? Why isnt Israeli recognition of Palestine and two-state solution the clue that keeps Palestine on map?
Reply

sister herb
01-20-2009, 03:31 PM
:sl:

Something I dont understand, why dont rocket/mortar attacks in july, august, september or october constitute as breaking the ceasefire?
This you didn´t understood; zionists declared truce with Hamas, but those missiles/rockets didn´t come from Hamas but they own traitors whose made work to zionists forces.

Can you even prove they would were Qassams at all?

:D

At the same time zionists whose were wrote agreement about truce with Hamas as opening borders ate they words and didn´t keep them.

It is same now; 4 Gazans have been killed by zionists during ceasefire; two of them children, others civilians. What kind of ceasefire is this if only Palestinians have to follow it, not occupiers?


:raging:
Reply

Woodrow
01-20-2009, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Something I dont understand, why dont rocket/mortar attacks in july, august, september or october constitute as breaking the ceasefire?



My arguement is this inconsistency that you seem to have in your position. You claim to condemn violence but on the same breath you praise a group that offers nothing but violence as the sole and only saviour of Palestine. Fatah with its long history of bitter fighting with Israel suddenly isnt going to save palestine, why? Because they try to negotiate and have resigned from/put on hold actions that you supposedly condemn? Why isnt Israeli recognition of Palestine and two-state solution the clue that keeps Palestine on map?
Perhaps you can not see that supporting an idea and supporting a group fighting for the idea are not the same. I, like Bro. aamirsaab, support what Hamas is fighting for, but I do not support Hamas or the methods they use.

Likewise I supported Bush's idea of freeing Iraq from Saddam, but I do not support Bush nor the method he used.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-20-2009, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Perhaps you can not see that supporting an idea and supporting a group fighting for the idea are not the same. I, like Bro. aamirsaab, support what Hamas is fighting for, but I do not support Hamas or the methods they use.

Likewise I supported Bush's idea of freeing Iraq from Saddam, but I do not support Bush nor the method he used.
So why isnt methods that Id figure both of you support (peaceful negotiations) something that keeps Palestine on map but instead it is the methods that you dont support (violence, rocket attacks on civilians) that keep it on map?
Reply

Woodrow
01-20-2009, 04:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
So why isnt methods that Id figure both of you support (peaceful negotiations) something that keeps Palestine on map but instead it is the methods that you dont support (violence, rocket attacks on civilians) that keep it on map?
When have both side ever sincerely entered into peaceful negotiations?

I think you can blame the media and the mentality of most people for that. It seems violence gets noticed, and peace doesn't.

Yes, a loud noise has to be made to make the plight of the people of Gaza known. But this loud voice can come from peaceful demonstrations, publicity of the atrocities committed by the Zionists, selective boycotts of products that will actually hurt Israel financially, financial assistance for beneficial projects in Gaza, ie Schools, hospitals, housing, industrial development etc.
Reply

sister herb
01-20-2009, 04:37 PM
:sl:

Dear Suomipoika

by Palestinian Basic Law, that person called Mahmud Abbas has no right to negotiate about anything by Palestinian state with zionists as he is no president after 9th of January of 2009.

After that by law he is just a citizen of Palestine.

Article 36

The term of the presidency of the National Authority shall be the interim phase, after which the President shall be elected in accordance with the law.


Article 37
The office of the President shall be considered vacant in any of the following cases:

a. Death;
b. Resignation submitted to the Palestinian Legislative Council, if accepted by two-thirds of its members;

c. Loss of legal capacity, as per a ruling issued by the High Constitutional Court and subsequently approved by a majority of two-thirds of the members of the Legislative Council.

If the office of the President of the National Authority becomes vacant due to any of the above cases, the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council shall temporarily assume the powers and duties of the Presidency of the National Authority for a period not to exceed sixty (60) days, during which free and direct elections to elect a new President shall take place in accordance with the Palestinian Election Law.
Reply

sister herb
01-20-2009, 04:39 PM
the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is Dr. Dweik.

By law he should to be president right now. He is in political prosoner in zionist jail.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-20-2009, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
When have both side ever sincerely entered into peaceful negotiations?
Id imagine quite a few times, but thats besides the point. The point is why something you (well, you agreed with aamirsaab) claim to condemn, violence, and not sincere negotiations is the key for Palestine staying on map? All Hamas has to do is to recognice Israels right to exist and actually be sincere about permanent peace not ceasefire. The heroic road block is acting like stubborn idiots. Yet Israel gets blastered for not trying to "sincerely" negotiate.

How sincere are you (and aamirsaab or even me due to some Israeli actions) really for peace since you let (or even accept) your sweet idea to be associated with something that you supposedly condemn?
Reply

جوري
01-20-2009, 06:38 PM
EDIT

let's see what if Hamas didn't exist


If Hamas Didn't Exist

January 10, 2009 By Jennifer Loewenstein


Jennifer Loewenstein's ZSpace Page



Let us get one thing perfectly straight. If the wholesale mutilation and degradation of the Gaza Strip is going to continue; if Israel's will is at one with that of the United States; if the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and all the international legal agencies and organizations spread across the globe are going to continue to sit by like hollow mannequins doing nothing but making repeated "calls" for a "ceasefire" on "both sides"; if the cowardly, obsequious and supine Arab States are going to stand by watching their brethren get slaughtered by the hour while the world's bullying Superpower eyes them threateningly from Washington lest they say something a little to their disliking; then let us at least tell the truth why this hell on earth is taking place.

The state terror unleashed from the skies and on the ground against the Gaza Strip as we speak has nothing to do with Hamas. It has nothing to do with "Terror". It has nothing to do with the long-term "security" of the Jewish State or with Hizbullah or Syria or Iran except insofar as it is aggravating the conditions that have led up to this crisis today. It has nothing to do with some conjured-up "war" - a cynical and overused euphemism that amounts to little more the wholesale enslavement of any nation that dares claim its sovereign rights; that dares assert that its resources are its own; that doesn't want one of the Empire's obscene military bases sitting on its cherished land.

This crisis has nothing to do with freedom, democracy, justice or peace. It is not about Mahmoud Zahhar or Khalid Mash'al or Ismail Haniyeh. It is not about Hassan Nasrallah or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. These are all circumstantial players who have gained a role in the current tempest only now that the situation has been allowed for 61 years to develop into the catastrophe that it is today. The Islamist factor has colored and will continue to color the atmosphere of the crisis; it has enlisted the current leaders and mobilized wide sectors of the world's population. The primary symbols today are Islamic - the mosques, the Qur'an, the references to the Prophet Muhammad and to Jihad. But these symbols could disappear and the impasse would continue.

There was a time when Fatah and the PFLP held the day; when few Palestinians wanted anything to do with Islamist policies and politics. Such politics have nothing to do with primitive rockets being fired over the border, or smuggling tunnels and black-market weapons; just as Arafat's Fatah had little to do with stones and suicide bombings. The associations are coincidental; the creations of a given political environment. They are the result of something entirely different than what the lying politicians and their analysts are telling you. They have become part of the landscape of human events in the modern Middle East today; but incidentals wholly as lethal, or as recalcitrant, deadly, angry or incorrigible could just as soon have been in their places.

Strip away the clichés and the vacuous newspeak blaring out across the servile media and its pathetic corps of voluntary state servants in the Western world and what you will find is the naked desire for hegemony; for power over the weak and dominion over the world's wealth. Worse yet you will find that the selfishness, the hatred and indifference, the racism and bigotry, the egotism and hedonism that we try so hard to cover up with our sophisticated jargon, our refined academic theories and models actually help to guide our basest and ugliest desires. The callousness with which we in indulge in them all are endemic to our very culture; thriving here like flies on a corpse.

Strip away the current symbols and language of the victims of our selfish and devastating whims and you will find the simple, impassioned and unaffected cries of the downtrodden; of the ‘wretched of the earth' begging you to cease your cold aggression against their children and their homes; their families and their villages; begging you to leave them alone to have their fish and their bread, their oranges, their olives and their thyme; asking you first politely and then with increasing disbelief why you cannot let them live undisturbed on the land of their ancestors; unexploited, free of the fear of expulsion; of ravishment and devastation; free of permits and roadblocks and checkpoints and crossings; of monstrous concrete walls, guard towers, concrete bunkers, and barbed wire; of tanks and prisons and torture and death. Why is life without these policies and instruments of hell impossible?

The answer is because Israel has no intention of allowing a viable, sovereign Palestinian state on its borders. It had no intention of allowing it in 1948 when it grabbed 24 per cent more land than what it was allotted legally, if unfairly, by UN Resolution 181. It had no intention of allowing it throughout the massacres and ploys of the 1950s. It had no intention of allowing two states when it conquered the remaining 22 per cent of historic Palestine in 1967 and reinterpreted UN Security Council Resolution 242 to its own liking despite the overwhelming international consensus stating that Israel would receive full international recognition within secure and recognized borders if it withdrew from the lands it had only recently occupied.

It had no intention of acknowledging Palestinian national rights at the United Nations in 1976, when—alone with the United States—it voted against a two-state solution. It had no intention of allowing a comprehensive peace settlement when Egypt stood ready to deliver but received, and obediently accepted, a separate peace exclusive of the rights of Palestinians and the remaining peoples of the region. It had no intention of working toward a just two-state solution in 1978 or 1982 when it invaded, fire-bombed, blasted and bulldozed Beirut so that it might annex the West Bank without hassle. It had no intention of granting a Palestinian state in 1987 when the first Intifada spread across occupied Palestine, into the Diaspora and the into the spirits of the global dispossessed, or when Israel deliberately aided the newly formed Hamas movement so that it might undermine the strength of the more secular-nationalist factions.

Israel had no intention of granting a Palestinian state at Madrid or at Oslo where the PLO was superseded by the quivering, quisling Palestinian Authority, too many of whose cronies grasped at the wealth and prestige it gave them at the expense of their own kin. As Israel beamed into the world's satellites and microphones its desire for peace and a two-state solution, it more than doubled the number of illegal Jewish settlements on the ground in the West Bank and around East Jerusalem, annexing them as it built and continues to build a superstructure of bypass roads and highways over the remaining, severed cities and villages of earthly Palestine. It has annexed the Jordan valley, the international border of Jordan, expelling any ‘locals' inhabiting that land. It speaks with a viper's tongue over the multiple amputee of Palestine whose head shall soon be severed from its body in the name of justice, peace and security.

Through the home demolitions, the assaults on civil society that attempted to cast Palestinian history and culture into a chasm of oblivion; through the unspeakable destruction of the refugee camp sieges and infrastructure bombardments of the second Intifada, through assassinations and summary executions, past the grandiose farce of disengagement and up to the nullification of free, fair and democratic Palestinian elections Israel has made its view known again and again in the strongest possible language, the language of military might, of threats, intimidation, harassment, defamation and degradation.

Israel, with the unconditional and approving support of the United States, has made it dramatically clear to the entire world over and over and over again, repeating in action after action that it will accept no viable Palestinian state next to its borders. What will it take for the rest of us to hear? What will it take to end the criminal silence of the ‘international community'? What will it take to see past the lies and indoctrination to what is taking place before us day after day in full view of the eyes of the world? The more horrific the actions on the ground, the more insistent are the words of peace. To listen and watch without hearing or seeing allows the indifference, the ignorance and complicity to continue and deepens with each grave our collective shame.

The destruction of Gaza has nothing to do with Hamas. Israel will accept no authority in the Palestinian territories that it does not ultimately control. Any individual, leader, faction or movement that fails to accede to Israel's demands or that seeks genuine sovereignty and the equality of all nations in the region; any government or popular movement that demands the applicability of international humanitarian law and of the universal declaration of human rights for its own people will be unacceptable for the Jewish State. Those dreaming of one state must be forced to ask themselves what Israel would do to a population of 4 million Palestinians within its borders when it commits on a daily, if not hourly basis, crimes against their collective humanity while they live alongside its borders? What will suddenly make the raison d'etre, the self-proclaimed purpose of Israel's reason for being change if the Palestinian territories are annexed to it outright?

The lifeblood of the Palestinian National Movement flows through the streets of Gaza today. Every drop that falls waters the soil of vengeance, bitterness and hatred not only in Palestine but across the Middle East and much of the world. We do have a choice over whether or not this should continue. Now is the time to make it.

Jennifer Loewenstein is the Associate Director of the Middle East Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She can be reached at amadea311@earthlink.net
Reply

sister herb
01-20-2009, 07:19 PM
:sl:

All Hamas has to do is to recognice Israels right to exist
Has zionists state ever recognice Palestine right to exist? Zionists already occupied Palestine more than 60 years. Why ask victim to recognice that those criminals had right to take lives and land, kill and rape, not ask criminals to admit they crimes?

Why blame all the time that victim is criminal in this game?

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m36111&hd=&size=1&l=e

Some interesting quotes about Palestine/Palestinians:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story637.html
Reply

Woodrow
01-20-2009, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Id imagine quite a few times, but thats besides the point. The point is why something you (well, you agreed with aamirsaab) claim to condemn, violence, and not sincere negotiations is the key for Palestine staying on map? All Hamas has to do is to recognice Israels right to exist and actually be sincere about permanent peace not ceasefire. The heroic road block is acting like stubborn idiots. Yet Israel gets blastered for not trying to "sincerely" negotiate.

How sincere are you (and aamirsaab or even me due to some Israeli actions) really for peace since you let (or even accept) your sweet idea to be associated with something that you supposedly condemn?
Do you understand the word both? I said BOTH sides need to be sincere.

sometimes I feel Hamas works for Israel. Hamas has provided excuses for Israel to act as Barbarians. Do you find the current carnage in Gaza to be justified? Apparently Israel does.

UNITED NATIONS – Hundreds of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid will be needed immediately to help Gaza's 1.4 million people and billions of dollars will be required to rebuild its shattered buildings and infrastructure, the U.N. humanitarian chief said Monday.

John Holmes said some neighborhoods have been almost totally destroyed, there are huge medical and food needs, sewage is flowing in some streets, and unexploded ordnance is posing a big problem.

While 100,000 people had their running water restored on Sunday, 400,000 still have no water, electricity is available for less than half the day, and 100,000 people are displaced from their homes, Holmes said.

"It may not be very clear who actually won this conflict, if such a concept means anything in Gaza, but I think it's pretty clear who lost and that was the civilian population of Gaza..." Holmes told reporters at U.N. headquarters.

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090120/...E3Hoo.HnwLewgF
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-20-2009, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
does it really make a difference if the refugees were born in Gaza or are the children of Refugees that were exiled from what was Palestine?
Yes it does in concern to my original post, it's not Israel's fault Gaza is an overpopulated area.


It is difficult to find sources that specifically tell how many of those listed as refugees are actual refugees, or refugees born of refugees that had come to gaza. I believe it would be safe to say all refugees over the age of 60 were not born in Gaza. And all under 14 were born in Gaza. the 15-64 age group is going to be hard to calculate. But I believe a fair assumption would be 50/50
I'm gonna look into it.
I doubt it's 50/50 because the majority of Palestinians left Israel in 1948.
Reply

Woodrow
01-20-2009, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes it does in concern to my original post, it's not Israel's fault Gaza is an overpopulated area.
Whose fault is it they are even in Gaza. The parents of the Children born in Gaza, would have much rather had their children in their original homes.
Reply

sister herb
01-20-2009, 11:31 PM
:sl:

It is "Isreals'" fault that Gaza is overpopulated area. Many residents there are children or grandchildren of refugees by those whose zionists deported from they own land, Palestine, at 1948.

By international laws, they still have right to return to they own lands, it is just same what those racist zionists are saying.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-21-2009, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Do you understand the word both? I said BOTH sides need to be sincere.

sometimes I feel Hamas works for Israel. Hamas has provided excuses for Israel to act as Barbarians. Do you find the current carnage in Gaza to be justified? Apparently Israel does.
Ok then, I was wrong.

As for the current carnage in Gaza. I have very hard time seeing what Israel should do differently. It has been attacked from Gaza, just because their enemy is dug in among civilians should not be a reason why they cannot strike back. Especially since this enemy keeps repeatedly targetting Israeli civilians. The situation in Gaza is horrible but I cant fault Israel for defending itself. People seem to suggest that if evil monsters like the members of Hamas hide among enough civilians you cannot fight against the bad guys. All the blame lays on Hamas for breaking the ceasefire. Why did they need 3 weeks of Israel bombing Gaza to resume the ceasefire? Why couldnt they in december keep the ceasefire? What on earth was so heroic and road blocky to need this month of bombing and war before agreeing to it again? I can only wonder how exactly did this action lead to Palestine staying on map any better than Fatah way of negotiating.
Reply

sister herb
01-21-2009, 12:13 AM
It has been attacked from Gaza, just because their enemy is dug in among civilians should not be a reason why they cannot strike back.
:sl:

One more typical lie of zionists; who could possible give any kind of proves this really is happening? Claim is similar than during last massacre of Gaza - as zionists claimed that resistance is keeping they missiles and weapons in the schools, mosques, hospitals, universities, kindercarters etc. Unfortunately there wasn´t any proves for this - just only "word" of zionist attackers.

You seemly read your news only from western news agency whose get they "information" from zionists propaganda.

Idea of "have occupiers right to fight back when they victims try to protect themselves" is interesting. Have only occupier right to protect themselves, not an occupied to ask even they legal rights like live in peace and freedom in they own land?

Mostly Palestinian resistance have also attacked by they missiles to open areas or to military areas, not against civilians.
Reply

جوري
01-21-2009, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

One more typical lie of zionists; who could possible give any kind of proves this really is happening? Claim is similar than during last massacre of Gaza - as zionists claimed that resistance is keeping they missiles and weapons in the schools, mosques, hospitals, universities, kindercarters etc. Unfortunately there wasn´t any proves for this - just only "word" of zionist attackers.

You seemly read your news only from western news agency whose get they "information" from zionists propaganda.

Idea of "have occupiers right to fight back when they victims try to protect themselves" is interesting. Have only occupier right to protect themselves, not an occupied to ask even they legal rights like live in peace and freedom in they own land?
It is more selective reading than anything, for even their own news which cows to the zionist influence can't blind itself fast enough to the injustice carried out there..

I am at a loss as to why we keep people as such on board really when I think they are best suited for Jihad/Pipes/dawkin type forums where they can slowely simmer in their ignorance, hatred and stupidity!..

sob7an Allah

:w:
Reply

Woodrow
01-21-2009, 12:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Ok then, I was wrong.

As for the current carnage in Gaza. I have very hard time seeing what Israel should do differently. It has been attacked from Gaza, just because their enemy is dug in among civilians should not be a reason why they cannot strike back. Especially since this enemy keeps repeatedly targetting Israeli civilians. The situation in Gaza is horrible but I cant fault Israel for defending itself. People seem to suggest that if evil monsters like the members of Hamas hide among enough civilians you cannot fight against the bad guys. All the blame lays on Hamas for breaking the ceasefire. Why did they need 3 weeks of Israel bombing Gaza to resume the ceasefire? Why couldnt they in december keep the ceasefire? What on earth was so heroic and road blocky to need this month of bombing and war before agreeing to it again? I can only wonder how exactly did this action lead to Palestine staying on map any better than Fatah way of negotiating.
Having been a military man myself I firmly believe that the most humane war is fought with sufficient strength to render the target inoperable. However, one bullet beyond the necessary stregth is overkill and becomes a barbaric path of vengence.

Israel and most of the world was/is aware that most people in Gaza are unarmed. the ones with arms are poorly armed with mostly antiquated obsolete weapons.

Israel has very advanced weapons and the ability to almost surgically remove any threat without jeopardizing the lives of the innocent. This was overkill, with too much firepower concentrated on too small of an area.

I do not justify Israel attacking Gaza, but I do have some understanding that they wanted to stop the rocket attacks, although the rocket attacks were more nuisance, than danger. However, this was not an attack to stop rocket attacks, it was a blatant all out effort to obliterate Gaza.

I can only wonder how exactly did this action lead to Palestine staying on map any better than Fatah way of negotiating
It didn't. I have always said that the actions of Hamas were counter productive and could only hurt Gaza.

It is the freedom of Palestinians I would like to live long enough to see. Hamas also has a goal to free the Palestinians. I agree with that, but I do not agree with the methods used by Hamas. I also agree with the goals of Fatah in the West Bank, but do not always agree with their methods either.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-21-2009, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
However, one bullet beyond the necessary stregth is overkill and becomes a barbaric path of vengence.
Except that even after the 3 weeks of bombing, after Israel had declared ceasefire, Hamas fired more rockets into Israel. They didnt even go up to the necessary strength to remove the threath when the threath is still able to fire at them.

I do not justify Israel attacking Gaza, but I do have some understanding that they wanted to stop the rocket attacks, although the rocket attacks were more nuisance, than danger. However, this was not an attack to stop rocket attacks, it was a blatant all out effort to obliterate Gaza.
The rocket attacks kill and wound people, how is that not a danger?
Reply

Trumble
01-21-2009, 12:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Israel has very advanced weapons and the ability to almost surgically remove any threat without jeopardizing the lives of the innocent.
I don't believe anybody currently has that ability when applied to an area like Gaza (I say 'an area'; it is unique). Even if they did it would require precise and accurate intelligence about the location of the targets we have have no reason to believe the Israelis would have had. The Israelis knew they would kill civilians. So did Hamas.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-21-2009, 01:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Whose fault is it they are even in Gaza. The parents of the Children born in Gaza, would have much rather had their children in their original homes.
I'm sure they would, what I'm saying is that it was their own choice to have such large families in such a small area.
Reply

Woodrow
01-21-2009, 01:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't believe anybody currently has that ability when applied to an area like Gaza (I say 'an area'; it is unique). Even if they did it would require precise and accurate intelligence about the location of the targets we have have no reason to believe the Israelis would have had. The Israelis knew they would kill civilians. So did Hamas.

I will agree that Gaza is unique. The entire region all 360 Square KM is basically a residential area with a few spots the size of a small town park being called rural. Any munitions that have a blast radius of over 10 feet will endanger non-combatants. does one go into such a region with massive fire power unless the primary intent is to kill the entire population.

Now, let us look at the "Danger" the Qassam and Katyusha rockets posed:

The range is very limited. The qassams are home made and not much more than sky rockets in metal skins. The range I believe is no more than 1 KM. The katyushas although antiques do pose a greater danger the most modern Katyusha has a range of almost 4 miles. It seems the most humane action Israel could have taken would have been to declare a buffer zone extending 5 miles out from the Gaza border and outlaw the building of residences in that area. this would have rendered any rockets from Gaza useless.

I know it would be unfair to ask some Jewish settlers to move out of their homes. But what happened to the Palestinians that got kicked out of their homes in 1948 and forced to go to Gaza, is fair..

My point being Israel had options to disable the threat without needing to level Gaza.
Reply

sister herb
01-21-2009, 01:22 AM
:sl:

Whose are civilians in Gaza? By International Laws for example polices are civilians (at the first victims of massacre zionists attacked).

Are civilians only women and children under 16 or 18 years? Every others are then what?

For last idea all men in Gaza over 16 or 18 are not civilians? Just same if they have military training, any connections to resistance forces or weapon in they hand... are they non-civilians?

Whose are civilians in zionists state? Most of they citizens have military training. If parents keep they kids in illecal settlemets in the stolen lands like Sderot, kids are on they responsibility.
Reply

جوري
01-21-2009, 01:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm sure they would, what I'm saying is that it was their own choice to have such large families in such a small area.
That is usually the case with any 'specie' at threat of extinction.. they have a large population, of whom very few end up surviving.. the future of Palestine lies in its children.. and insha'Allah they will be able to do what their fathers failed to do- claim what is rightly theirs!
Reply

Gia
01-21-2009, 06:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argon Gossamer
That is usually the case with any 'specie' at threat of extinction.. they have a large population, of whom very few end up surviving.. the future of Palestine lies in its children.. and insha'Allah they will be able to do what their fathers failed to do- claim what is rightly theirs!
The truth is that families here in Gaza are having smaller numbers lately, that's to say that you'll find that all new families consist of 2 parents and 2 or 3 children and that's all.
Reply

جوري
01-21-2009, 06:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gia
The truth is that families here in Gaza are having smaller numbers lately, that's to say that you'll find that all new families consist of 2 parents and 2 or 3 children and that's all.
You should see the Chassidic of NY -- they pop them out like bunnies, typical family has 7~8 kids.. I don't hear any complaints when it comes to them.. sobhan Allah
Hasidic Jews typically produce large families; the average chasidic family in the United States has 7.9 children.[1] This custom is followed out of a desire to fulfill the Biblical mandate to "be fruitful and multiply."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism

I am not hearing complaints from the sanctimonious family planning squad when it comes to Jews.. do you?
Reply

sister herb
01-21-2009, 07:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gia
The truth is that families here in Gaza are having smaller numbers lately, that's to say that you'll find that all new families consist of 2 parents and 2 or 3 children and that's all.
:sl:

Interesting. I don´t know any family from Gaza whose would only few kids (even my friends whose are married recently). Most of them have four or more.
Reply

Gia
01-21-2009, 07:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

Interesting. I don´t know any family from Gaza whose would only few kids (even my friends whose are married recently). Most of them have four or more.
I'm referring to an overall situation that covers the whole area lately. People are no more having as many children as their parents had. I'm sensing this around me everywhere even if there are still families that consist of 4 kids or so. Still, people used to have up to 9 kids years ago.
Reply

Suomipoika
01-21-2009, 12:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I will agree that Gaza is unique. The entire region all 360 Square KM is basically a residential area with a few spots the size of a small town park being called rural. Any munitions that have a blast radius of over 10 feet will endanger non-combatants. does one go into such a region with massive fire power unless the primary intent is to kill the entire population.

Now, let us look at the "Danger" the Qassam and Katyusha rockets posed:

The range is very limited. The qassams are home made and not much more than sky rockets in metal skins. The range I believe is no more than 1 KM. The katyushas although antiques do pose a greater danger the most modern Katyusha has a range of almost 4 miles. It seems the most humane action Israel could have taken would have been to declare a buffer zone extending 5 miles out from the Gaza border and outlaw the building of residences in that area. this would have rendered any rockets from Gaza useless.

I know it would be unfair to ask some Jewish settlers to move out of their homes. But what happened to the Palestinians that got kicked out of their homes in 1948 and forced to go to Gaza, is fair..

My point being Israel had options to disable the threat without needing to level Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7402625.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-missiles.html

Palestinians have been hitting as far as 25 miles from Gaza border, so your 5 mile buffer zone was no option to disable that threat. Belittling the death and danger Israeli civilians have to endure thanks to Hamas (and friends) wont make it go away.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-21-2009, 12:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argon Gossamer
You should see the Chassidic of NY -- they pop them out like bunnies, typical family has 7~8 kids.. I don't hear any complaints when it comes to them.. sobhan Allah
Hasidic Jews typically produce large families; the average chasidic family in the United States has 7.9 children.[1] This custom is followed out of a desire to fulfill the Biblical mandate to "be fruitful and multiply."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism

I am not hearing complaints from the sanctimonious family planning squad when it comes to Jews.. do you?
The difference is that they've got room and they don't go complaining to others when they run out of it.
Reply

Gia
01-21-2009, 12:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The difference is that they've got room and they don't go complaining to others when they run out of it.
They've never ran out of it, why would anyone hear them complain then?
Reply

crayon
01-21-2009, 01:20 PM
Israel- "Stop having children so we don't have to kill as many":rollseyes
Reply

aamirsaab
01-21-2009, 01:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
... I can only wonder how exactly did this action lead to Palestine staying on map any better than Fatah way of negotiating.
Ok looks like I need to clarify it. When Israel marches into Palestininan land with bulldozers, Hamas is in the way - not Fatah. As long as Hamas exists, they halt Israel from stealing land (via charging the streets). Unfortunately, the way Hamas goes about this leads to the deaths of countless civilians on either side. I agree with Hamas in being a road block that prevents Israel from bulldozing Palestinian homes (and forcing the citizens out!). But, I disagree with their methodology in doing so.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-21-2009, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Israel- "Stop having children so we don't have to kill as many":rollseyes
I think it's more like you can have as many children as you want but don't come complaining to us when you find yourself in one of the most crowded areas in the world.
Reply

crayon
01-21-2009, 01:30 PM
They can't exactly leave, can they?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-21-2009, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
They can't exactly leave, can they?
They could try having smaller families.
Reply

crayon
01-21-2009, 01:33 PM
So they are under siege politically, economically, and now they're expected to stop reproducing? Sounds lovely.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-21-2009, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
So they are under siege politically, economically, and now they're expected to stop reproducing? Sounds lovely.
How many big city families have 5+ children? They don't. Nobody can force anyone to have less children, it's up to them to figure out its the best thing to do.
Reply

crayon
01-21-2009, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
How many big city families have 5+ children? They don't. Nobody can force anyone to have less children, it's up to them to figure out its the best thing to do.
The "west's" standards are not world standards; come to arab countries and see how many children an average family has, then ask how many families have 5 children or more.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-21-2009, 01:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
The "west's" standards are not world standards; come to arab countries and see how many children an average family has, then ask how many families have 5 children or more.
As I said, they're allowed to have as many children as they want as long as they are willing to face the consequences. If that's their standard, they shouldn't be complaining.
Surely they can't expect Israel or the UN will grant them additional room based on violent demographics.
Reply

crayon
01-21-2009, 01:59 PM
And Israel should face the consequences of murdering civilians, almost 500 of whom are children.

Oh, wait. This is Israel we're talking about...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-21-2009, 02:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
And Israel should face the consequences of murdering civilians, almost 500 of whom are children.

Oh, wait. This is Israel we're talking about...
Yes they should, they have lost a lot of support and gained a lot of opponents.
Reply

sister herb
01-21-2009, 02:02 PM
:sl:

For zionist rabbis killing children of enemy is as they would slaughter animals. They claims they holy Torah give right for them to do so.

imsad
Reply

Azy
01-21-2009, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
The "west's" standards are not world standards; come to arab countries and see how many children an average family has, then ask how many families have 5 children or more.
Do you honestly think that you can have an exponential increase in population and not run into any problems, in Palestine or anywhere?

format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
For zionist rabbis killing children of enemy is as they would slaughter animals. They claims they holy Torah give right for them to do so.
Yes we'd noticed that you hate the Jews, you don't need to post in every thread if it's not relevant to the topic.
Reply

crayon
01-21-2009, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Do you honestly think that you can have an exponential increase in population and not run into any problems, in Palestine or anywhere?
House prices going up, overcrowding in schools, finding more food and drinkable water, those sorts of problems?
Sure.

But 500 children dying as collateral damage? I don't think that's a "regular" overpopulation problem.
Reply

aamirsaab
01-21-2009, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Do you honestly think that you can have an exponential increase in population and not run into any problems, in Palestine or anywhere?
....
The real problem isn't with exponential population increase. It's your home shrinking in size and which idiot(s are) causing it.

I mean, I have a big family and the only real problem we face is not being able to get our 5 fruits a day - do you know how much fruit we would have to buy for just one week?! LOTS!

Anyway, I think I've derailed this thread. So er, get back on topic.
Reply

Azy
01-21-2009, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
But 500 children dying as collateral damage? I don't think that's a "regular" overpopulation problem.
Well no that's probably more to do with folk fighting a war within a city against a better armed and equipped force.
In WWII 22m out of the 50m+ who died were soldiers. You can't have a war without civilian casualties because there are no global basketball courts of battle where two military forces can fight it out without affecting anyone else. Fighting your battles from between houses is asking for trouble though.

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
The real problem isn't with exponential population increase. It's your home shrinking in size and which idiot(s are) causing it.
My comment wasn't really about the conflict specifically, but crayons statement that arab countries can expect to have 5+ kids because it's tradition.
Reply

جوري
01-21-2009, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The difference is that they've got room and they don't go complaining to others when they run out of it.
Well actually they should have room, given Palestine is their home land and they should be free to go and come as they please and have children to their heart's content.. it isn't their fault they are occupied!

I love your twisted logic!
Reply

sister herb
01-21-2009, 04:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Yes we'd noticed that you hate the Jews, you don't need to post in every thread if it's not relevant to the topic.
I have wrote about zionists, not jews.

Some jew rabbis have health opinion what zionism really is:

http://www.nkusa.org/
Reply

Suomipoika
01-21-2009, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Ok looks like I need to clarify it. When Israel marches into Palestininan land with bulldozers, Hamas is in the way - not Fatah. As long as Hamas exists, they halt Israel from stealing land (via charging the streets). Unfortunately, the way Hamas goes about this leads to the deaths of countless civilians on either side. I agree with Hamas in being a road block that prevents Israel from bulldozing Palestinian homes (and forcing the citizens out!). But, I disagree with their methodology in doing so.
According to latest news, during last month in Hamas controlled Gaza Israel destroyed 4 000 buildings and seriously damaged 20 000. 50 000 Gazans are without home and 400 000 are without running water. Bravo road block, bravo. +o(
Reply

sister herb
01-21-2009, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
According to latest news, during last month in Hamas controlled Gaza Israel destroyed 4 000 buildings and seriously damaged 20 000. 50 000 Gazans are without home and 400 000 are without running water. Bravo road block, bravo. +o(
:sl:

Bravo that children haven´t they homes anymore? Bravo that people are in danger to get as cholera if they have to drink dirty water?

imsad
Reply

Suomipoika
01-21-2009, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

Bravo that children haven´t they homes anymore? Bravo that people are in danger to get as cholera if they have to drink dirty water?

imsad
I was being sarcastic.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-21-2009, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argon Gossamer
Well actually they should have room, given Palestine is their home land and they should be free to go and come as they please and have children to their heart's content.. it isn't their fault they are occupied!

I love your twisted logic!
Yes they should by they don't, you don't have families with 7 children on a 350 square kilometers strip based on should.
Reply

جوري
01-21-2009, 06:20 PM
well their hope of reclamation is their children. and insha'Allah they will have enough to displace the cockroach settler state!
Reply

Gia
01-22-2009, 05:40 AM
I understand your logic, but when people have children they don't have them so that they would lose them, people have children to enjoy seeing them grow into happy well educated adults, it's not about numbers when it comes to mothers and fathers.
Reply

Silver
01-22-2009, 05:55 AM
I understand your logic, but when people have children they don't have them so that they would lose them, people have children to enjoy seeing them grow into happy well educated adults, it's not about numbers when it comes to mothers and fathers.
I think that palestinians have a lot of children because they know that if they don't, noone will be left in Gaza! People get killed everyday there...

My dad used to tell me, that a few decades ago, in Lebanon, many children died because of the war, disease...etc. So people had many children. He told me that when my grandpa still had five children, people would ask him: Don't you wanna have more children? Because they knew that some of these children will die and they were right, my grandfather did lose five of his kids.
Now that things have changed, people have 2 or 3 kids only...so it is about numbers, when you are not sure wether your kids will reach adulthood or not.

In southern Lebanon, they still have a lot of kids for the same reason. Many of those kids die in the Hezbollah-israeli wars. I've heard of families, who lost all their children in the 2006 war and now they want to have other children...it's about survival.

I don't really agree with their logic, I'd rather have 2 children and take good care of them than having 6 children and losing half of them. But anyways, that's how they think...
Reply

Gia
01-22-2009, 07:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lara
I don't really agree with their logic, I'd rather have 2 children and take good care of them than having 6 children and losing half of them. But anyways, that's how they think...
This is actually a very good point, it's how things should be and it's how most educated people think nowadays everywhere including Gaza :thumbs_up
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-04-2012, 03:29 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-20-2011, 02:00 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-20-2009, 09:54 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-09-2009, 07:36 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!