Question to Atheists: Male/Female how?

[Hamayun]

My question is to Atheists.

Before you answer this please refrain from mahoosive copy/paste from google. Please speak in simple terms and explain briefly.

I have been reading all the threads about evolution and the "theories" that explain evolving from single celled organisms.... whats your "theory" for this?

My question is:

a) Single celled organisms reproduce by cell division right? So if we evolved from single cell organisms at what point did they become male and female?

b) What was the cause for the Sexes to come into existence?

Was it caused by mutation? Was it a slow process? If so surely the sexual organs were not fully functional and therefore would cause the species to go extinct? Or did they miraculously appear in their fully fuctional form?

c) How was it that the males and females were given different set of tools that together create such a robust and complicated system? Was it by accident? If it was by accident then refer to b)


Basically when and where did the sexual organs come if there was no plan behind them? Did the single celled organisms plan the reproductive system?

Thanks.

[ninetrey]

esselamu aleikum

can someone please close this thread because this hole evolution thing might confuse some muslims!the evolution is a invention of the **** devil iblis
and all atheists will burn in hell thread closes!:D

[Hamayun]

Haha! I kinda agree with you. Evolution threads just seem to be more of a "who can google faster" competition with no real conclusion... ever.

But this question just popped up in my head a few days ago so I though I might as well ask the "experts" on the latest "theories"

[Chuck]

I've one possible answer without googling but let the atheist answer here first.

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[Gator]

Sorry to blow by the OP but this was an interesting read for those interested (has a little bit about sex) -
http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...0chance&st=cse

Sex articles (its a pay site though) - http://www.nature.com/nrg/focus/evolsex/index.html

thanks.

[Wyatt]

I am no expert on this, but for a religious person just to ignore 'evolution' and pretend it doesn't exist is foolish in my opinion. Animals are changing right now; new species are being bred. Who's to say 'change' isn't possible? In some cases, intentionally. Humans change dogs, create new breeds with different instincts. If you say it is, then how can evolution not be?

As for the gender question, I'm not an evolutionist by that I don't study and claim it. I believe in the general notion, and have nothing against the theory that we branched off from monkehz. So, I could probably not answer with credible information.

But, I do think that the 'everything was planned out and has been the same' mindset seems a bit shallow in thinking. Maybe it was, by Allah, but to think things can't change evolutionary is putting a lot out of Allah's hands, isn't it? There're a lot of things about evolution one can't just push into the rubbish bin. This also puts dinosaurs and the neanderthalic fossils into question for the religious people. Please, don't pretend you have all the answers when we still have unanswered questions. :)

So maybe someone, hopefully, with more knowledge than me can answer the gender question. I am also interested in hearing what explanation there is.

(Agnostic, not Atheist.)

[Hamayun]

I am no expert on this, but for a religious person just to ignore 'evolution' and pretend it doesn't exist is foolish in my opinion. Animals are changing right now; new species are being bred. Who's to say 'change' isn't possible? In some cases, intentionally. Humans change dogs, create new breeds with different instincts. If you say it is, then how can evolution not be?

As for the gender question, I'm not an evolutionist by that I don't study and claim it. I believe in the general notion, and have nothing against the theory that we branched off from monkehz. So, I could probably not answer with credible information.

But, I do think that the 'everything was planned out and has been the same' mindset seems a bit shallow in thinking. Maybe it was, by Allah, but to think things can't change evolutionary is putting a lot out of Allah's hands, isn't it? There're a lot of things about evolution one can't just push into the rubbish bin. This also puts dinosaurs and the neanderthalic fossils into question for the religious people. Please, don't pretend you have all the answers when we still have unanswered questions. :)

So maybe someone, hopefully, with more knowledge than me can answer the gender question. I am also interested in hearing what explanation there is.

(Agnostic, not Atheist.)

I respect your views and I actually agree with you. Evolution has been happening since the beginning of time and evolution is still happening. However, I do not believe evolution is un-planned. I believe it is all part of a system that has been brought into existence intentionally.

Peace :)

[Wyatt]

I respect your views and I actually agree with you. Evolution has been happening since the beginning of time and evolution is still happening. However, I do not believe evolution is un-planned. I believe it is all part of a system that has been brought into existence intentionally.

Peace :)

This is agreeable! :D
I'm glad there's a consensus on this. It doesn't have to be unplanned, but it's existence is undeniable, I think. If it's in Allah's will, then be it. :)

[Chuck]

Sorry to blow by the OP but this was an interesting read for those interested (has a little bit about sex) -
http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...0chance&st=cse

Sex articles (its a pay site though) - http://www.nature.com/nrg/focus/evolsex/index.html

thanks.

pay attention to bold read print in OP.

[Baji-Ji]

This is kinda off point but in religious education when I was in school the teacher posed the question is it comforting to believe in an afterlife and that's why people do it? And of course my friend an athiest nodded her head. At the time this meant nothing to me.

Now mashallah my deen is stronger and when I think back on that question I wonder where the comfort lies in believing in an afterlife .. with all the sin going on in the world today the thought of an afterlife is far from comforting for me!

But inshallah Allah will accept our repentance and we will find comfort in an afterlife.

[Trumble]

My question is to Atheists.

Why is it solely directed at atheists? Many theists also accept evolution.

I have been reading all the threads about evolution and the "theories" that explain evolving from single celled organisms.... whats your "theory" for this?

Why is "theory" in inverted commas? Regardless, I don't have one, not being a biologist or evolutionary scientist. As far as I can see nobody is sure and it remains an answered question. As with all unanswered questions in science, and there are a virtual infinity of them, the fact that the answer is unknown in 1809, 1909, 2009, or even 2109 doesn't mean it never will be known. In this instance we might never know.. the key to past in this context is examination of fossils and if the process kicked off in soft tissued organisms half a billion years ago there might just be no record sufficient to generate more than speculative hypotheses.

Maybe in some future laboratory we can actually simulate the process.. and who knows? We might even travel to another, younger, planet somewhere out there and watch it as it happens. Giving up just because we don't now now, and assigning responsibility to an unprovable, unknowable God presumably on the grounds we never will know is not only logical nonsense, it's blatant intellectual surrender. 'Evolutionists' prefer to leave that to 'creationists'.

[Hamayun]

Why is it solely directed at atheists? Many theists also accept evolution.

I accept evolution too. Never mentioned in my post I didn't? :?

Why is "theory" in inverted commas? Regardless, I don't have one, not being a biologist or evolutionary scientist. As far as I can see nobody is sure and it remains an answered question. As with all unanswered questions in science, and there are a virtual infinity of them, the fact that the answer is unknown in 1809, 1909, 2009, or even 2109 doesn't mean it never will be known. In this instance we might never know.. the key to past in this context is examination of fossils and if the process kicked off in soft tissued organisms half a billion years ago there might just be no record sufficient to generate more than speculative hypotheses.

Maybe in some future laboratory we can actually simulate the process.. and who knows? We might even travel to another, younger, planet somewhere out there and watch it as it happens.

Thanks for your effort but this is completely uninformative and hasn't contributed to the discussion in any way.

Giving up just because we don't now now, and assigning responsibility to an unprovable, unknowable God presumably on the grounds we never will know is not only logical nonsense, it's blatant intellectual surrender. 'Evolutionists' prefer to leave that to 'creationists'.

I wonder what gave you that idea? I would like you to show me even one Muslim who follows Islam on the grounds 'we never will know'. I challenge you.

As Muslims we accept Muhammad (pbuh) as the messenger of God and believe in his message. His character, way of life and the message he brought are enough reason for most of us. Not to mention the words of the Quran. Those are the reasons we are "theists" as you like to call us. Not because we have surrendered our intelligence. :mmokay:

[Ali_Cena]

Sorry to blow by the OP but this was an interesting read for those interested (has a little bit about sex) -
http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...0chance&st=cse

Sex articles (its a pay site though) - http://www.nature.com/nrg/focus/evolsex/index.html

thanks.

he siad no googling are you stupid gator>>>>>>>?
no googling dont have a fool of yourself.

[Trumble]

I accept evolution too. Never mentioned in my post I didn't? :?

So, answer the question.

Thanks for your effort but this is completely uninformative and hasn't contributed to the discussion in any way.

You will forgive me if I disagree. I have rather more faith in my own judgement than yours. I've returned the negative rep... not something I usually do but in this case your arrogance is so breathtaking I'll make an exception.

I wonder what gave you that idea? I would like you to show me even one Muslim who follows Islam on the grounds 'we never will know'. I challenge you.

I'd take the trouble to actually read people's posts before issuing 'challenges', if I were you. I never claimed anyone 'follows Islam' on those grounds. I implied people reject evolution - the predominant scientific theory - in favour of creationism for that reason, but as you yourself 'accept evolution' clearly neither of us believe those people and 'muslims' are necessarily one and the same.

[Ali_Cena]

So, answer the question.

he was questiing the athiest(who beliving in evolution)........... dont make a fool of yourself aswell trumble lol:D

Peace

[Trumble]

he was questiing the athiest(who beliving in evolution)........... dont make a fool of yourself aswell trumble lol:D

I suggest you either try and keep up, or follow your own advice. He has acknowledged that some muslims 'believe' in evolution as well.

[Faisal Pervaiz]

Not one Athiest has answered a single question that Brother Ali asked them.

Comon Athiests whats wrong?

[Ali_Cena]

I suggest you either try and keep up, or follow your own advice. He has acknowledged that some muslims 'believe' in evolution as well.

firstly were have i said he hasent........? >>>>>>nowhere.

second of all i belive in some parts of evolution and acknolwge some muslims do e.g abdul fattah.

third of all dont get away from what i said, i said that you should not ask him to answer becuase he was QUESTIONG ATHEIST WHO belive in evolution.

NOT THIEST WHO BELIVE in evoliution........

lol i like the way you go off topic to what i said. lol

[Trumble]

i said that you should not ask him to answer becuase he was QUESTIONG ATHEIST WHO belive in evolution.

NOT THIEST WHO BELIVE in evoliution........

I know he was asking that. I asked WHY he was limiting potential respondents to atheists. If, as everyone seems to agree, both atheists and theists may 'believe' in evolution why distinguish between the two? Perhaps the poster who can provide Hamayun with an answer that pleases him is a theist; several muslim members are biological scientists of some sort or other.

[Hamayun]

Trumble I would love to hurl personal insults back at you too but I am better than that.

Now please read carefully:

1. If you read my 2nd post you would see that I believe in evolution but I do not think it is un-planned.

2. The question was aimed at Atheists who believe there was no intelligence behind Evolution.

3. I am not sure what negative rep you are talking about? And I am not sure why you felt the need to leave me neg rep :?

4. Funny how you hurl abuse and then claim others are arrogant? Whats the matter? Did I touch a nerve?

I really couldn't care less what your opinions are of me. I don't know you and wouldn't like to know you either.

Peace.

[Hamayun]

Since the Kaafirs have not answered the question let me take the opportunity:

Quran: 049.013
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female

[Trumble]

Oh dear.. sorry about the negative rep! I'll 'replace' it when the system lets me. It was actually from someone else, who shall remain nameless (but who has not actually posted in this thread), who said

You made absolutely no effort to answer the questions posted but instead reitierated the evolutionists hope that "science will one day" have an answer. Science is your god while Allah is mine. Lakum deen ukum wa liya deen!

.. I should have looked rather closer. :X

Funny how you hurl abuse and then claim others are arrogant? Whats the matter? Did I touch a nerve?

No, although it seems I have. I didn't "hurl abuse and then claim others are arrogant". I simply accused you of arrogance in view of one particular remark. You are, of course, quite at liberty to disagree with that assessment. :)

I really couldn't care less what your opinions are of me.

In which case, that won't be a problem!

Peace.

Likewise.

[Gator]

he siad no googling are you stupid gator>>>>>>>?
no googling dont have a fool of yourself.

Al & Chuck, I didn't "google" these articles. I had read them recently (before this post) and they were relevant to male/female evolution.

I think the idea of the introduction of random chance (gaussian) by the process of male/female evolution to produce a successful structure in the presence of adaptive change is interesting.

Have a nice day.

[Gator]

Since the Kaafirs have not answered the question let me take the opportunity:

Quran: 049.013
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female

OK Great! So how did he do that? Also why? Why not three or four sexes? Why just two?

Thanks.

[Trumble]

Since the Kaafirs have not answered the question let me take the opportunity:

Quran: 049.013
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female

How, exactly, does that answer your own question? It's a quote from the Qur'an that has nothing to do with evolution. Indeed, while it doesn't contradict evolution, it does exclude the origin of 'mankind' from that process. Indeed all it mentions is mankind.. you question was 'rather' more general, as I recall?!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your opinion seems to be that evolution by natural selection (presumably excluding homo sapiens, according to your last) is a reality, but that the process was designed to produce particular results according to God's plan? If that is so then the division into sexes must still have happened, and therefore there is still a need for theories as to how ('why' now being sorted) it happened, what the process was. I don't see how whether it was 'planned' or not matters at all in that context. People still ask how the Egyptians build the Pyramids, but nobody claims they were accidents or the results of 'chance'! Even if there were an agreed theory, originating from atheists or not, it wouldn't rule out the possibility that the evolutionary mechanism was planned to generate particular results.

[Hamayun]

I am not getting into a debate about my beliefs. I simply stated my favourite theory.

I am waiting for other alternative theories from Atheists that explain my original questions.

Peace :)

[Gator]

I am not getting into a debate about my beliefs. I simply stated my favourite theory.

I am waiting for other alternative theories from Atheists that explain my original questions.

Peace :)

OK that's cool. My guess is that it came about by natural processes.

Thanks.

[Hamayun]

OK that's cool. My guess is that it came about my natural processes.

Thanks.

Yep I know that is the general idea in Atheism but I am hoping someone can explain

a) what were the possible causes and stages that led to having Male and Female sexual organs and a reproductive system.

b) What caused the humans to have all the tools necessary to:

1) Produce sperms in males

2) Make the sperms self powered and capable of swimming directly into the eggs getting past all hurdles.

3) Female egg accept sperms.

4) Having a way of fertilizing the egg with only 1 sperm and lock the rest out.

5) Have a womb, uterus, umblical chord etc to sustain the foetus and feed it etc in the womb.

6) Have a way to extract the baby at the right time without the need for surgery.

7) Have breasts so as to feed the baby when the baby is unable to eat.

And the list continues.....

Look forward to the answers to the above points :)

Peace :)

[Zamtsa]

The site said "These uncertainties aside, it is becoming clear that genomes are not the randomly arranged set of genes that we might have imagined them to be. But is this also true at a smaller scale? For example, could natural selection explain which genes are next to each other on a given chromosome? The clustering of broadly expressed genes13, such as those for the everyday running of cells, suggests that small-scale gene arrangements are not always random. These could be exceptions rather than the rule, however, and clarification of the issues awaits the sequencing of the complete genomes of more organisms."


This means that Allahu Al Mushawwir(The Fashioner) which made it into being by putting genes in order. Agnostic got no part in Nubuwwat of Rasulullah.


1 Say: O ye that reject Faith! 6289
2 I worship not that which ye worship
3 Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 6290
4 And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship
5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6 To you be your Way and to me mine.



Al Hasyr(59):24 He is Allah the Creator the Evolver the Bestower of Forms (or colors). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: Whatever is in the heavens and on earth doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the exalted in Might the Wise.

Hybrid marriage came from Ikhtiyar (action) of men to marry them. Allahu Ta'ala only marry between a she and a he. The so called volution could not breed a he with a he, or a she with a she.

Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

[Gator]

Yep I know that is the general idea in Atheism but I am hoping someone can explain

I've got an idea, you give me your specific guess for each question as to how god did it and I'll give you my guess at the natural process.

That way I could learn what you think and you learn what I think.

Also, I could work off your framework to answer the questions (if I even have a guess, which will probably be no for most if not all of them).

[Trumble]

Hamayun, I just don't see what your 'theory' is supposed to be? If it is simply that all of those things happened just because God used his omnipotent power to make them happen - in short 'straight' creationism - that's fine, I understand you. But you claim to 'believe' in planned evolution. If that is so then the answer to all those questions will be 'as a result of evolution'... all that is uncertain is the exact mechanisms of what evolved from what, and which selective factors were responsible. That is exactly the same whether the evolutionary process was designed by God or not. So how do you explain them?

[Zamtsa]

I've got an idea, you give me your specific guess for each question as to how god did it and I'll give you my guess at the natural process.

That way I could learn what you think and you learn what I think.

Also, I could work off your framework to answer the questions (if I even have a guess, which will probably be no for most if not all of them).

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Rahiim


1. The water is having the right percentage of hidrogen and oxygen, it is not solid nor gas.

2. The range between the sun and the earth which is perfect.

3. The scientists had declare over and over again in the 21th century that if there was even 0,00000...1 fault, then the earth wouldn't be created like now and so too with everything in Allah's nature.

4. The scientist already said that the universes were created out of nothing. While we live in this earth having oxigen, water, sun heat, atmospheres which are the shield from the radiants of the sun.

5. Evolution never existed because there were no animals which were a half transformed. That explained in an animal which could produce a hot and poisonous liquid sprays, and the liquid was inside its belly, If evolution happened to this animals, then these animals will die before that, because it saved that kind of liquid and it does have a protection wall inside its stomach.


Assalamu manit taba'al huda(May peace be upon who follow the guidance)

[Chuck]

Hamayun, I just don't see what your 'theory' is supposed to be? If it is simply that all of those things happened just because God used his omnipotent power to make them happen - in short 'straight' creationism - that's fine, I understand you. But you claim to 'believe' in planned evolution. If that is so then the answer to all those questions will be 'as a result of evolution'... all that is uncertain is the exact mechanisms of what evolved from what, and which selective factors were responsible. That is exactly the same whether the evolutionary process was designed by God or not. So how do you explain them?

This is not really related to this topic, you can start your own topic.

[Muezzin]

Play nice, please.

Sex articles (its a pay site though) - http://www.nature.com/nrg/focus/evolsex/index.html

That sounds so wrong.

[Faisal Pervaiz]

You know whats funny, Athiests still havent answered any of the questions.
It looks like the athiests dont have an answer.

Well it just shows how all this is a planned process and was created by the almighty Allah

[Keltoi]

The question is rhetorical and senseless. If one person says evolution is a natural process, and the other says God made it happen...what is really the difference besides the obvious athiest/theist debate? An athiest might say that evolution is a natural process without any divine plan...and a theist will say that evolution is a natural process with a divine plan. In the end, it is all about whether one believes God is responsible or not.

[Hamayun]

I thought the questions are quite straightforward. I am not asking for evidence... I am asking for theories... similar to the ones that get thrown around on all the other evolution threads.

Once again... If there is no design/plan involved then:

a) what were the possible causes and stages that led to having Male and Female sexual organs and a reproductive system.

b) What caused the humans to have all the tools necessary to:

1) Produce sperms in males

2) Make the sperms self powered and capable of swimming directly into the eggs getting past all hurdles.

3) Female egg accept sperms.

4) Having a way of fertilizing the egg with only 1 sperm and lock the rest out.

5) Have a womb, uterus, umblical chord etc to sustain the foetus and feed it etc in the womb.

6) Have a way to extract the baby at the right time without the need for surgery.

7) Have breasts so as to feed the baby when the baby is unable to eat.

[ninetrey]

I am no expert on this, but for a religious person just to ignore 'evolution' and pretend it doesn't exist is foolish in my opinion. Animals are changing right now; new species are being bred. Who's to say 'change' isn't possible? In some cases, intentionally. Humans change dogs, create new breeds with different instincts. If you say it is, then how can evolution not be?

As for the gender question, I'm not an evolutionist by that I don't study and claim it. I believe in the general notion, and have nothing against the theory that we branched off from monkehz. So, I could probably not answer with credible information.

But, I do think that the 'everything was planned out and has been the same' mindset seems a bit shallow in thinking. Maybe it was, by Allah, but to think things can't change evolutionary is putting a lot out of Allah's hands, isn't it? There're a lot of things about evolution one can't just push into the rubbish bin. This also puts dinosaurs and the neanderthalic fossils into question for the religious people. Please, don't pretend you have all the answers when we still have unanswered questions. :)

So maybe someone, hopefully, with more knowledge than me can answer the gender question. I am also interested in hearing what explanation there is.

(Agnostic, not Atheist.)

1) Atheists should be banned from this forum

2) Atheists and Agnostics are exactly the same thing because you both dont believe in god and thats what its all about.

3) And if the evolution is true then why does the physic of the human body dont change nomore? Maby a third eye or a second mouth or a new race
anybody?

the evolution is a lie from the **** lapidaded shäytan and those who believe in in are insane and will be punished in this life with disgrace and in next life (Hell for you) with pain, fire and whips of steel.

Allahu Akbar

[ninetrey]

by the way the human race not already excists since millions of years!!!
the human race excists since something like 5000 - and 10000 years!!
the first human was adam and were all are adams children!!!!!!
neanderthalers never excisted and all the found scelletons and sculls
of so called apes are fake and an invention of the **** lapidaded shäytan faggot iblis!!! charles darwin was a gay padophile alcoholic and he was a slave of the devil iblis(f.a.g.g.o.t.)!!! is there more to say?

[Gator]

I thought the questions are quite straightforward. I am not asking for evidence... I am asking for theories... similar to the ones that get thrown around on all the other evolution threads...

Well let's do this. I've never studied up on the evolution of sex so to make this interesting I'll give my guesses now then study up on the current scientific literature to see where I was wrong, right or N/A.

a)big question. I would say that along the line somewhere exchange of genetic material came about through a change in the genetic material. The upshot of this was stable given the adaptive environment. This delinated into male/female.

b) inherited from ancestors (since you specifically state human I'll keep my answers to us and not where the actual ability came about).

1) like male fish produce sperm we got it from our ancestors.

2) Mammalian trait since fish just spread it about in the water, we need an more liquid environment given the amniote. So we go this somewhere in the land/sea transition.

3) See fish (we inherited the trait from an earlier ancestor).

4) Adaptive change from earlier ancestor where single genetic material introduction with lock out was more successful.

5) Land based ancestor. See amniote.

6) From earlier adaption of any number of ancestors. (On a side note, I wouldn't call this exact as allah has killed billions of kids and mothers to be due to inexact timing over the history of mankind. Blind evolution makes this horrible suffering more understandable).

7) Inherited. It would seem reasonable to me that more complex creatures would be more successful should they be able to care and sustain their offspring.

The questions are a little poorly worded (no offense, that's why i wanted your answers to guide me). I'm sure you'll refine your questions as we proceed. My next responses will be mainly researched (I'll define where I'm giving my own opinions as I did in this case).

This sounds like it will be an interesting enterprise.

Thanks.

[Zamtsa]

Well let's do this. I've never studied up on the evolution of sex so to make this interesting I'll give my guesses now then study up on the current scientific literature to see where I was wrong, right or N/A.

a)big question. I would say that along the line somewhere exchange of genetic material came about through a change in the genetic material. The upshot of this was stable given the adaptive environment. This delinated into male/female.

b) inherited from ancestors (since you specifically state human I'll keep my answers to us and not where the actual ability came about).

1) like male fish produce sperm we got it from our ancestors.

2) Mammalian trait since fish just spread it about in the water, we need an more liquid environment given the amniote. So we go this somewhere in the land/sea transition.

3) See fish (we inherited the trait from an earlier ancestor).

4) Adaptive change from earlier ancestor where single genetic material introduction with lock out was more successful.

5) Land based ancestor. See amniote.

6) From earlier adaption of any number of ancestors. (On a side note, I wouldn't call this exact as allah has killed billions of kids and mothers to be due to inexact timing over the history of mankind. Blind evolution makes this horrible suffering more understandable).

7) Inherited. It would seem reasonable to me that more complex creatures would be more successful should they be able to care and sustain their offspring.

The questions are a little poorly worded (no offense, that's why i wanted your answers to guide me). I'm sure you'll refine your questions as we proceed. My next responses will be mainly researched (I'll define where I'm giving my own opinions as I did in this case).

This sounds like it will be an interesting enterprise.

Thanks.

How does this happen, If you could answer, I'll give up:

I see 3 bricks lying on the floor, and I go somewhere, after a while, I see the 3 bricks standing to each other. I said "No one make the 3 bricks to stand to each other. Because, there is no 1st brick, bricks are made by themselves, making consclusion that behind every bricks there is a creator, is not intelligent enough."


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace be upon who follow the guidance).

[ninetrey]

How does this happen, If you could answer, I'll give up:

I see 3 bricks lying on the floor, and I go somewhere, after a while, I see the 3 bricks standing to each other. I said "No one make the 3 bricks to stand to each other. Because, there is no 1st brick, bricks are made by themselves, making consclusion that behind every bricks there is a creator, is not intelligent enough."


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace be upon who follow the guidance).

very good one brother jazzak allahu khairan for that lol

[Zamtsa]

wa fiikum barakaallah. Your welcome.

[Trumble]

Very informative - on the subject of bricks. Unfortunately bricks are not the the subject of discussion, nor is anything analogous to them.

[Zamtsa]

How does this happen, If you could answer, I'll give up:

I see 3 bricks lying on the floor, and I go somewhere, after a while, I see the 3 bricks standing to each other. I said "No one make the 3 bricks to stand to each other. Because, there is no 1st brick, bricks are made by themselves, making consclusion that behind every bricks there is a creator, is not intelligent enough."


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace be upon who follow the guidance).

very good, but bricks don't hit back.

[Gator]

How does this happen, If you could answer, I'll give up:...

Interesting. How about this.

You go to a colleagues house to pick him up to go on a business trip and there is a closed jar on the kitchen table with a string from the lid hanging in a solution that fills the jar. You and he leave and lock the door. He lives alone and no one else has a key.

You come back at the end of the week and he unlocks the door and there is a large crystal hanging from the end of the string that wasn't there before!

Now is your assumption that this crystal formed by a miracle from god or the result of chemistry? Let me know.

Thanks.

[Ali_Cena]

hi gator, one thing which i think atheist misunderstand sooooooooooooooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch is that
they think that if it can be explained e.i how the crystal was formed, they it leave God out, why???? why do all atheist think like that, i mean if you can explain how it was formed, you are basically explain how God made it, by the chemical process. When someone says God did it, then the scientist can say how, say evolution or big bang.

so your answer is this by God's will the chemical process lead to the forming of chemistry,

one last thing please gator, if you understood what i meant by my first paragraph tell me, i want to know if that is how you think>>>if it can be explaind then God did not do it, iis this how you think??>>being atheist anyway.

cant you just think this is how God made it, by the chemical biological process or whatever.... comment,
Peace brother gator

[Ali_Cena]

bumpage gator reply????????>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Zamtsa]

bumpage gator reply????????>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Na'am, because it's Allahu Ta'ala who made the basic law of this universe, so that any change outside of the usual things could happen. That's why even Mu'jizat(miracle) could happen in this world, because Allahu Ta'ala already prepared the infrastructure for that to happen.

People talking about a lottery ballot, then the earth formed itself, just as the right number taken from the lottery.

Now if it is really the case, then there would not be any fully transformed living beings, because the fact is that the proof of a half transformed animals, was never even found.

And why was that? Because in the outer space, the only living things found are Bacteria and microscopic organism.

So Allahu Ta'ala made Mars, Jupiter, Mercurius etc not to make people disbelief Him, instead to know that Allahu Ta'ala could make the Hellfire and the Heaven. The Hellfire is worse place than the planets, with their poisonous air, hot temperature, no nutrients etc.

[Ali_Cena]

Na'am, because it's Allahu Ta'ala who made the basic law of this universe, so that any change outside of the usual things could happen. That's why even Mu'jizat(miracle) could happen in this world, because Allahu Ta'ala already prepared the infrastructure for that to happen.

People talking about a lottery ballot, then the earth formed itself, just as the right number taken from the lottery.

Now if it is really the case, then there would not be any fully transformed living beings, because the fact is that the proof of a half transformed animals, was never even found.

And why was that? Because in the outer space, the only living things found are Bacteria and microscopic organism.

So Allahu Ta'ala made Mars, Jupiter, Mercurius etc not to make people disbelief Him, instead to know that Allahu Ta'ala could make the Hellfire and the Heaven. The Hellfire is worse place than the planets, with their poisonous air, hot temperature, no nutrients etc.

:sl: lol wanted gator to reply, but your reply was good lol, and it makes sense...
PEace brother

[BoredAgnostic]

My question is to Atheists.

Before you answer this please refrain from mahoosive copy/paste from google. Please speak in simple terms and explain briefly.

I have been reading all the threads about evolution and the "theories" that explain evolving from single celled organisms.... whats your "theory" for this?

My question is:

a) Single celled organisms reproduce by cell division right? So if we evolved from single cell organisms at what point did they become male and female?

b) What was the cause for the Sexes to come into existence?

Was it caused by mutation? Was it a slow process? If so surely the sexual organs were not fully functional and therefore would cause the species to go extinct? Or did they miraculously appear in their fully fuctional form?

c) How was it that the males and females were given different set of tools that together create such a robust and complicated system? Was it by accident? If it was by accident then refer to b)


Basically when and where did the sexual organs come if there was no plan behind them? Did the single celled organisms plan the reproductive system?

Thanks.

I'd actually be interested in knowing this as well. My knowledge of evolution is pretty rudimentary, and considering I'm a biology major..I better get to studying! If you're genuinely interested in finding out some possible answers, I would suggest that you place your questions on this forum http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dBoard.cgi . From what I've seen there are only a handful of atheists/agnostics on this forum and I don't know how many of them are evolutionary biologists or have in depth knowledge of this subject.

[Gator]

hi gator, one thing which i think atheist misunderstand sooooooooooooooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch is that
they think that if it can be explained e.i how the crystal was formed, they it leave God out, why???? why do all atheist think like that, i mean if you can explain how it was formed, you are basically explain how God made it, by the chemical process. When someone says God did it, then the scientist can say how, say evolution or big bang.

so your answer is this by God's will the chemical process lead to the forming of chemistry,

one last thing please gator, if you understood what i meant by my first paragraph tell me, i want to know if that is how you think>>>if it can be explaind then God did not do it, iis this how you think??>>being atheist anyway.

cant you just think this is how God made it, by the chemical biological process or whatever.... comment,
Peace brother gator

Hey Ali, Actually I do understand it. As I was typing it i was thinking to myself the smart*** answer would be "BOTH!". Then that's a different question as it goes to the existence of god.

To answer your second question, no, explainations aren't necessary, since I believe there is no god, no god has done anything. I don't have all the answers and don't really need them to not believe in god. My lack of a belief in god is not based on science. I'm ok with saying "I don't know, but I have guesses".

The reason I'm an atheist is that based on my experiences of the world and how my mind processes that information, none of the definitions of a god sound reasonable to me.

Thanks.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

My question is to Atheists.

Before you answer this please refrain from mahoosive copy/paste from google. Please speak in simple terms and explain briefly.

I have been reading all the threads about evolution and the "theories" that explain evolving from single celled organisms.... whats your "theory" for this?

My question is:

a) Single celled organisms reproduce by cell division right? So if we evolved from single cell organisms at what point did they become male and female?

b) What was the cause for the Sexes to come into existence?

Was it caused by mutation? Was it a slow process? If so surely the sexual organs were not fully functional and therefore would cause the species to go extinct? Or did they miraculously appear in their fully fuctional form?

c) How was it that the males and females were given different set of tools that together create such a robust and complicated system? Was it by accident? If it was by accident then refer to b)


Basically when and where did the sexual organs come if there was no plan behind them? Did the single celled organisms plan the reproductive system?

Thanks.

The answer to your questions is "Nobody knows".

Peace

[Zamtsa]

Greetings,


The answer to your questions is "Nobody knows".

Peace

It's different between saying "nobody knows," with saying "Allahu Ta'ala said it in Al Qur'an."

While Muhammad, being as Rasulullah, he did not became a smart ... person type of thing. When someone ask about the succesfulness of hybrid marriage between plants, he said "Antum a'lamu umuri dunyakum (You know better about the things of the world)."

He also said that Syaithan like to ask to people who believe on Allahu Tabaraka Ta'ala with the question "Who made the sky and the earth," then after the Muslim replies "Allahu Subhanahu wa Ta'ala," the Syaithan will ask again "Who created Allah," Rasulullah Shalallahu 'alaihi wa Sallam said "When you are ask with that question then reply 'I believe on Allah and His Rasul."

[Hamayun]

Greetings,


The answer to your questions is "Nobody knows".

Peace

Same goes for all the other theories of evolution. Nobody really "knows" the answers but there are still theories.

So what are the theories for this?

Let me make it easier... I will post one question at a time clearly.

1. Describe the transitional stages starting from meiosis to the present day reproductive organs (including the female organs supporting the foetus in the womb and the ability to breast feed after birth) and the causes behind the change.


Thanks :)

[Trumble]

Let me make it easier... I will post one question at a time clearly.

1. Describe the transitional stages starting from meiosis to the present day reproductive organs (including the female organs supporting the foetus in the womb and the ability to breast feed after birth) and the causes behind the change.

What is the point of this? We have already established we have nobody here qualified to answer in specific terms; this is postgrad stuff not general knowledge. Rather than tediously flogging the proverbial dead horse in, presumably, trying to make some sort of point, why not visit the website BoredAgnostic recommended where someone might actually have some answers for you?

[Hamayun]

What is the point of this? We have already established we have nobody here qualified to answer in specific terms; this is postgrad stuff not general knowledge. Rather than tediously flogging the proverbial dead horse in, presumably, trying to make some sort of point, why not visit the website BoredAgnostic recommended where someone might actually have some answers for you?

You let me down. I thought you knew everything.

Thanks for the advice but I struggle to tolerate the few agnostics here let alone sign up to an Agnostic forum.

Peace

[Srigengolder]

The arrogance of the 'believers' in this thread is simply put, disgusting. Whatever happened to good old 'modesty'? If you don't agree with a proven theory, that's your prerogative (I guess), why oh why do you have to resort to pointless arguments?
If you're truly curious about evolution, there are a million books out there that will answer all your questions. Evolution For Dummies comes to mind...

[Hamayun]

The arrogance of the 'believers' in this thread is simply put, disgusting. Whatever happened to good old 'modesty'? If you don't agree with a proven theory, that's your prerogative (I guess), why oh why do you have to resort to pointless arguments?
If you're truly curious about evolution, there are a million books out there that will answer all your questions. Evolution For Dummies comes to mind...

Salam my friend :)

Arrogant believers eh? :mmokay:

I am sorry you feel that way but let me assure you the feeling is mutual. All the Kaafirs I have come across here are not only arrogant but also very sarcastic 100% of the time.

They seem to be here for one reason only... and I think you know what that reason is.

Peace :)

[Srigengolder]

To debate?

I don't know their reasons, don't care for them either. From what I've seen only one side here seems to be celebrating intolerance. Anyway thank you for the welcome, hope we have some good debates. I'm only here to ask questions.

[Muezzin]

So close to lockage...

[Chuck]

From what I've seen only one side here seems to be celebrating intolerance.

hilarious :giggling:

[KAding]

What a strangely 'aggressive' and unfriendly atmosphere in this thread. Not quite as I have learned to expect on this forum.

Now, as has been widely pointed out, none of us are qualified to answer this question. So the prohibition in the original post to use google surely is the most effective way to prevent any kind of useful information from being brought forward :). I mean, for Pete's sake, try reading a bit about this on even the wiki page. I'll quote a bit just for everyone's amusement:

The Viral Eukaryogenesis(VE) theory proposes that eukaryotic cells arose from a combination of a lysogenic virus, an archaeon and a bacterium. This model suggests that the nucleus originated when the lysogenic virus incorporated genetic material from the archaeon and the bacterium and took over the role of information storage for the amalgam. The archaeal host transferred much of its functional genome to the virus during the evolution of cytoplasm but retained the function of gene translation and general metabolism. The bacterium transferred most of its functional genome to the virus as it transitioned into a mitochondrion.[27]

For these transformations to lead to the eukaryotic cell cycle, the VE hypothesis specifies a pox-like virus as the lysogenic virus. A pox-like virus is a likely ancestor because of its fundamental similarities with eukaryotic nuclei. These include a double stranded DNA genome, a linear chromosome with short telomeric repeats, a complex membrane bound capsid, the ability to produce capped mRNA, and the ability to export the capped mRNA across the viral membrane into the cytoplasm. The presence of a lysogenic pox-like virus ancestor explains the development of meiotic division, an essential component of sexual reproduction.[28]

Meiotic division in the VE hypothesis arose because of the evolutionary pressures placed on the lysogenic virus as a result of its inability to enter into the lytic cycle. This selective pressure resulted in the development of processes allowing the viruses to spread horizontally throughout the population. The outcome of this selection was cell-to-cell fusion. (This is distinct from the conjugation methods used by bacterial plasmids under evolutionary pressure, with important consequences.)[27] The possibility of this kind of fusion is supported by the presence of fusion proteins in the envelopes of the pox viruses that allow them to fuse with host membranes. These proteins could have been transferred to the cell membrane during viral reproduction, enabling cell-to-cell fusion between the virus host and an uninfected cell. The theory proposes meiosis originated from the fusion between two cells infected with related but different viruses which recognized each other as uninfected. After the fusion of the two cells, incompatibilities between the two viruses result in a meiotic-like cell division.[28]

The two viruses established in the cell would initiate replication in response to signals from the host cell. A mitosis-like cell cycle would proceed until the viral membranes dissolved, at which point linear chromosomes would be bound together with centromeres. The homologous nature of the two viral centromeres would incite the grouping of both sets into tetrads. It is speculated that this grouping may be the origin of crossing over, characteristic of the first division in modern meiosis. The partitioning apparatus of the mitotic-like cell cycle the cells used to replicate independently would then pull each set of chromosomes to one side of the cell, still bound by centromeres. These centromeres would prevent their replication in subsequent division, resulting in four daughter cells with one copy of one of the two original pox-like viruses. The process resulting from combination of two similar pox viruses within the same host closely mimics meiosis.[28]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not quite following!

Here is a more down to earth article on the matter:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27927661/

Scientists put sex origin mystery to bed
Wild strawberry research provides evidence on when gender emerges
...
The plants each have two proto-sex chromosomes. Two spots on each proto-sex chromosome contain sex-determining genes, one that controls sterility and fertility in males and another that does the same in females.

Offspring that inherit both fertility versions are hemaphrodites and can self-breed, while plants that inherit one fertility and one sterility version become either male or female. (A female would result from a sterile male and fertile female combination of genes.) Those that get both sterility versions of the genes are considered neuters and can't reproduce, so they ultimately die out.

[Hamayun]

What a strangely 'aggressive' and unfriendly atmosphere in this thread. Not quite as I have learned to expect on this forum.

Now, as has been widely pointed out, none of us are qualified to answer this question. So the prohibition in the original post to use google surely is the most effective way to prevent any kind of useful information from being brought forward :). I mean, for Pete's sake, try reading a bit about this on even the wiki page. I'll quote a bit just for everyone's amusement:



I don't know about you guys, but I'm not quite following!

Here is a more down to earth article on the matter:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27927661/

Thank you. That was an interesting read. Still hasn't answered my qestions but thanks for sharing anyway :)