Jesus: Divine Son of God or Prophet of Islam?

[The_Prince]

Salam, this is a debate I had with Dr. James White of www.aomin.org, he is a Christian scholar and apologist, and has had over 65 moderated debates with some of the biggest names, including the most recent one with Bart Erhman.

The debate took place back in November, and is finally availible to view: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kKjIKe...e=channel_page

[Grace Seeker]

The answer to this question will not be found in a debate, but in which book (the Qur'an or the Bible) one takes as being authoritative (if either for some people), and the quality of the hermenuetic one uses when reading them. And, try as one might to be objective, that hermenuetic is going to be impacted by the faith one brings to the study. I find that most of these debates have Muslim thinking the Islamic representative won, and Christians thinking just the opposite. I used to be interested in them, but they all turn our so much the same, with little learned on either side, that I basically find them pointless now.

There is one good thing about them, though. Prior to where they start attacking each other's views, one can get a good statement of what the particular individual happens to him/herself believe. And there is always value in learning a little more about our brothers and sisters in humanity, even those we disagree with.

[AntiKarateKid]

The answer to this question will not be found in a debate, but in which book (the Qur'an or the Bible) one takes as being authoritative (if either for some people), and the quality of the hermenuetic one uses when reading them. And, try as one might to be objective, that hermenuetic is going to be impacted by the faith one brings to the study. I find that most of these debates have Muslim thinking the Islamic representative one, and Christians thinking just the opposite. I used to be interested in them, but they all turn our so much the same, with little learned on either side, that I basically find them pointless now.

There is one good thing about them, though. Prior to where they start attacking each other's views, one can get a good statement of what the particular individual happens to him/herself believe. And there is always value in learning a little more about our brothers and sisters in humanity, even those we disagree with.

I disagree. Our arguments against the Trinity are using your own Bible as proof. Many have been convinced through debates like this that the Bible they followed is corrupt and did not call Isa pbuh God.

Honestly Seeker, why would you disregard such debates which are made even simpler for Christians by using their OWN holy books, to prove a point?

Your dismissal of such debate and espousing of a "either you believe the Bible or the Quran and thats that" answer is shocking in it's lack of depth and insight.

It is this attitude that drives many Christians away when you give such statements that expect religion to be just random and blind faith.

Debates provoke thought and they should continue. You say that this isnt the case for you but that is only because you have conditioned yourself to ignore the benefits of the debate.

[Follower]

LOL! I find it so funny that Muslims insist that the Bible is corrupt, when their Quran validates the Gospel and Torah.

It is possible that the label Trinity is deficient in labeling Jesus- for that title is from man. The concept is in the Bible, but it is not labeled for us.

Also Muslims insist that Jesus is a mere prophet under Mohammad when it is Jesus who unique above all in the Quran!!

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[Grace Seeker]

I disagree. Our arguments against the Trinity are using your own Bible as proof. Many have been convinced through debates like this that the Bible they followed is corrupt and did not call Isa pbuh God.

Honestly Seeker, why would you disregard such debates which are made even simpler for Christians by using their OWN holy books, to prove a point?

Your dismissal of such debate and espousing of a "either you believe the Bible or the Quran and thats that" answer is shocking in it's lack of depth and insight.

It is this attitude that drives many Christians away when you give such statements that expect religion to be just random and blind faith.

Debates provoke thought and they should continue. You say that this isnt the case for you but that is only because you have conditioned yourself to ignore the benefits of the debate.

You misunderstand me if you think that I am calling for blind faith. What I am saying is that hearers of these debates don't come with open minds, but with preconceptions as to what is and is not authoritative, and based on those preformed views their conclusions can be anticipated even before the debate is begun.

When I see that to be true here debate after debate, I eventually have to ask the question, "What's the point?" I don't see people being edified or learning through these events, but simply further entrenched in to which ever ideas they were predisposed to from the beginning.

[AntiKarateKid]

LOL! I find it so funny that Muslims insist that the Bible is corrupt, when their Quran validates the Gospel and Torah.

It is possible that the label Trinity is deficient in labeling Jesus- for that title is from man. The concept is in the Bible, but it is not labeled for us.

Also Muslims insist that Jesus is a mere prophet under Mohammad when it is Jesus who unique above all in the Quran!!

Bring your proof. Because you make no sense right about now.

I find it so funny that you could be so ill informed about the Quran?

And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods. apart from God?” He said, 'To you be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, you knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within your soul. you know the things unseen. I only said to them what you did command me: "serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when you did take me to yourself, you were yourself the watcher over them; you are the witness of everything. If you punish them, they are your servants, if you forgive them, you are the Almighty, the All-wise.' God said, ‘This is the day the truthful shall be profited by their truthfulness. For them await gardens underneath which rivers flow therein dwelling forever, God being well-pleased with them end they well-pleased with Him; That is the mighty triumph'.

“Indeed, they are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.’” (Quran 5:72)
[/B]
Hmm, if you claim that that validates the Bible of today, then you should take another gander at your book.

Oh and btw, the Bible and Torah the Quran talks highly of are not the ones you use. Allah refers to the original uncorrupted ones which should have lead you to Islam.

You have today manuscripts littered with errors and written by anonymous authors.



Oh btw, about this nonsense about Isa pbuh being honored above all...


Say: We believe in God and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and his sons, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between them, and unto Him we have surrendered.”
(Quran 3:83-84)


Should I continue butchering your comment? Because the only who should be laughing here is me, not you.

[AntiKarateKid]

You misunderstand me if you think that I am calling for blind faith. What I am saying is that hearers of these debates don't come with open minds, but with preconceptions as to what is and is not authoritative, and based on those preformed views their conclusions can be anticipated even before the debate is begun.

When I see that to be true here debate after debate, I eventually have to ask the question, "What's the point?" I don't see people being edified or learning through these events, but simply further entrenched in to which ever ideas they were predisposed to from the beginning.

You are making a blanket statement. Do you really believe that everyone who watches these debates has come with their mind made up?

Have a little faith in man's intellect Graceseeker.....really.

YOU may feel that way but I assure you, there are many out there who would love to see a debate to help them make up their mind.

[Follower]

But you do AKK- you hold Mohammad above Jesus!!

Paul was referencing the Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles.

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

When did Paul live, ca 5 - 67 AD. So the Gospels that we have today actually existed before 67AD. Alot of the "spurious gospels" that we have today were written much later or are fakes- thus not used by the early church fathers. Read about Polycarp [student of John] or the students of the original disciples.

Jesus speaking:

003.050
YUSUFALI: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
PICKTHAL: And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
SHAKIR: And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

Angel speaking to Mary-

019.019
YUSUFALI: He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
PICKTHAL: He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
SHAKIR: He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.

No one else is described this way blamless, faultless or born of a virgin.Jesus is the only one mentioned to have been brought up to Him- Jesus is called the Messiah in the Quran, too bad the whole meaning of the title the Messiah has been stripped away by Muslims - deliverer and that is what Jesus is.

4:171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector.

His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him Is this experssion used for anyone else?

Yes we know GOD created Adam and Eve, but with Jesus He used a womb. WHY?

Jesus is unique above all!!

[AntiKarateKid]

FOLLOWER: You compltetely distorted those verses and arrived at an unfounded opinion of Isa pbuh in Islam.

This rebuttal should correct your gave misconceptions.

Answer By Dr Zakir Naik :
1. JESUS (PBUH) "IS A WORD FROM ALLAH" NOT "THE WORD OF ALLAH"

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Ali ‘Imran Chapter 3 verse 45

"Behold! The angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus. The son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those Nearest to Allah.
[Al-Qur’an 3:45]

Jesus (pbuh) is referred in the Qur’an as a word from Allah and not as ‘the word of Allah’.

"A word" of Allah means a message of Allah. If a person is referred to as "a word" from Allah, it means that he is a Messenger or a Prophet of Allah.

2. THE TITLE OF A PROPHET (PBUH) DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT EXCLUSIVELY BELONGS TO THAT PROPHET (PBUH)

Different titles are given to different prophets (pbut). Whenever a title is given to a prophet (pbuh), it does not necessarily mean that the other prophets do not have the same characteristic or quality. For e.g. Prophet Abraham (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Khaleelullah, a friend of Allah. This does not indicate that all the other Prophets (pbuh) were not the friends of Allah. Prophet Moses (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Kaleemullah, indicating that God spoke to him. This does not mean that God did not speak to others. Similarly when Jesus (pbuh) is referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah, "a word from Allah", it does not mean that the other Prophets were not "the word," of Allah.

3. JOHN THE BAPTIST (PBUH) IS ALSO CALLED "A WORD" OF ALLAH

Yahya (pbuh) i.e. John the Baptist (pbuh) is also referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah i.e. a word of Allah in Surah Ali ‘Imran, Chapter 3, verses 38-39

"There did Zakariya Pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet – of the (goodly) company of the righteous."
[Al-Qur’an 3:39]

4. JESUS (PBUH) REFERRED AS RUHULLAH – A SPIRIT OF ALLAH

Jesus (pbuh) also never referred to as Ruhullah "a spirit of Allah" but as a spirit from Allah in Surah Nisa Chapter 4 verse 171

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Jesus Christ the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, And His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not ‘Trinity’: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
[Al-Qur’an 4:171]

5. SPIRIT OF ALLAH IS BREATHED IN EVERY HUMAN BEING

A spirit from Allah does not indicate that Jesus (pbuh) is God. The Qur’an mentions in several places that Allah breathed into the human beings "His Spirit" in Surah Al-Hijr, chapter 15 verse 29 in Surah Sajdah, chapter 32 verse 9

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
[Al-Qur’an 15:29]

Surah Sajdah Chapter 32 verse 9

"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!"
[Al-Qur’an 32:9]

[Follower]

With Jesus GOD is giving up his word to Mary in 4:171, threw His word and spirit/soul to Mary. He did not do this with Adam and John, they were just a word from GOD.

The verses you mention 3:45 and 3:39 are announcements from the angels, GOD is not directly involved in this verse.

With Adam GOD breathed his spirit into the formed clay. With Jesus it was given away, thrown to Mary's womb.

[Follower]

Anyone else labeled as Messiah in the Quran?

[Mustapha@]

:sl:
i think the message is clear, a word from Allah does not mean anything but a message from Allah.

both jesus(pbuh) and Yahya(pbuh) are words from Allah i.e both of them are messages from Allah...look at these verses:


"Behold! The angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus. The son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those Nearest to Allah.
[Al-Qur’an 3:45]



"There did Zakariya Pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet – of the (goodly) company of the righteous."
[Al-Qur’an 3:39]


Adam was created from clay...but Adam is the grand father of Marry(may Allah be pleased with her) and he is the grand father of all humanity. Thus, Jesus(pbuh) since he a son of Marry( may Allah be pleased with her) is created from clay too...and Allah put spirit into him, the same way He put spirit in me and in you...without spirit the body can not move...that's the kind of spirit that the previous mentioned verses talk about...I hope this clear the point for you. :)

:w:

[rpwelton]

Anyone else labeled as Messiah in the Quran?

Are you really trying to prove using the Qur'an that Jesus is God?

[AntiKarateKid]

Anyone else labeled as Messiah in the Quran?

Do you understand that there were many other messiah's in the Bible? Look it up. It isnt a title reserved only for yeshua pbuh.

The Quran mentions only the most major prophets.

[rpwelton]

What happend was, is that God the Son (Jesus) literally stepped down from the throne of heaven and entered into the womb of Mary.

So who was on the Throne while he was gone?

[mkh4JC]

So who was on the Throne while He was gone?

I'll just quote you the revelant scriptures:

'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in the fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' Phillipians 2: 5-11.

When Jesus was incarnated he was totally dependent on God the Father, to serve as an example to us, Chistians, and to the world. The Father and the Holy Spirit were on the throne, but that doesn't change the nature of Christ, as we see in Saint John.

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name;

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

St. John 1: 1-14.

[Grace Seeker]

Do you really believe that everyone who watches these debates has come with their mind made up?

I just read the remarks in the comments section and report on what I see. Perhaps I am being too harsh on some, for you are correct I made a rather sweeping statement. So, it probably isn't true that all come with their minds made up, but I suspect that vast majority of us do. And by this point I would have to admit that includes my own mind as well. As I said, I used to be interested, but now after hearing a number of such debates, I find that I can predict what the main points are going to be, and have rehashed them innumerable times with people on LI. There seems little new being brought to any of these debates, so except for the newcomer who hasn't given any thought (a relative small percent I suspect), and those who want to cheer on their own preferred viewpoint, like fans at a sporting event (the dominant groups it seems from the comment section), I don't really see much point to them anymore.

[Grace Seeker]

So who was on the Throne while he was gone?

God of course. In the Christian understanding of God he is not so limited that he cannot be incarnate in Jesus and at the same time on the throne of heaven. Is the Islamic view of God so limiting that he cannot be omnipresent?

[safallah]

God of course. In the Christian understanding of God he is not so limited that he cannot be incarnate in Jesus and at the same time on the throne of heaven. Is the Islamic view of God so limiting that he cannot be omnipresent?

which bible and what version do you have.

[safallah]

jesus was a propeht, many verses in the bilbe, and many prophercies were uttered by jesus of a prophet coming to guide mankind to all truth, check out john ch 15 vs 26

[safallah]

the statement made by jesus in regards to his reason for being was only sent to the lost sheep of israel, ( meaning only the jews)

[safallah]

please read mathew 16/13

[sevgi]

jesus was a propeht, many verses in the bilbe, and many prophercies were uttered by jesus of a prophet coming to guide mankind to all truth, check out john ch 15 vs 26

These verses, especially in the New International revised version of the Bible are open to all kinds of interpretation. The people who follow that book have formulated their own understanding of this verse, as have the muslims. Why would you even bring this verse into light? It is no longer some divine revelation which proves Prophet Muhammad's prophethood. It is just a verse up for grabs.

[Follower]

You really need to read the whole Gospel to get the jist of who Jesus is.

Matt 16
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

John 20
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

[Follower]

The verses are those in the Gospel validated by the Quran.

[rpwelton]

I just read the remarks in the comments section and report on what I see. Perhaps I am being too harsh on some, for you are correct I made a rather sweeping statement. So, it probably isn't true that all come with their minds made up, but I suspect that vast majority of us do. And by this point I would have to admit that includes my own mind as well. As I said, I used to be interested, but now after hearing a number of such debates, I find that I can predict what the main points are going to be, and have rehashed them innumerable times with people on LI. There seems little new being brought to any of these debates, so except for the newcomer who hasn't given any thought (a relative small percent I suspect), and those who want to cheer on their own preferred viewpoint, like fans at a sporting event (the dominant groups it seems from the comment section), I don't really see much point to them anymore.

I have to agree with you for the most part on this one. I too was drawn to any debate between Islam and Christianity that I could get my hands on for awhile. Now when I watch a debate, I already know what each party is going to say and generally how I'm going to react. There is the occasional time where someone brings something new, but for the most part it's always the same thing.

Usually the only wildcard in these types of things are the people themselves doing the debating, in terms of what kind of respect they show the opposing party and how they tolerate the views and beliefs of their opponent.

[rpwelton]

God of course. In the Christian understanding of God he is not so limited that he cannot be incarnate in Jesus and at the same time on the throne of heaven. Is the Islamic view of God so limiting that he cannot be omnipresent?

No, I am not saying that God isn't omnipresent. What I am rejecting is the idea that God has come down to our level. You see, God can be near to us, but He cannot be one of us or among us in form.

What Christianity is doing is basically saying that God stepped down from His high status above all things to come and be amongst His creation. In Islam, this is unacceptable. God of course has spoken to some of His creation, but He has always maintained His Godly attributes and status while doing so.

[Grace Seeker]

which bible and what version do you have.

I primarily read from the New International Version. But the point of view I expressed is not dependent on any particular translation. It is found in every edition of the Bible that you would read, be it published by a protestant or Catholic publishing housing; be it English, French, Spanish, Chinese, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, or Arabic.

[Grace Seeker]

No, I am not saying that God isn't omnipresent. What I am rejecting is the idea that God has come down to our level. You see, God can be near to us, but He cannot be one of us or among us in form.

What Christianity is doing is basically saying that God stepped down from His high status above all things to come and be amongst His creation.

Yep. You got it.
(Though we would not say that he had to abandon heaven to be on earth, for we hold that he is able to do both simultaneously.)

In Islam, this is unacceptable. God of course has spoken to some of His creation, but He has always maintained His Godly attributes and status while doing so.

OK. Then quite simply you understand the Christian message and reject it. That is your choice to make. I respect you for saying so plainly. That "in Islaim, this is unacceptable" is one of the reasons that Islam is untenable for me. Of course, neither one of us is going to win everyone to our point of view. Sometimes the best we can do is try to respect those differences once they are defined.

[Zamtsa]

The Jesus in the Bible shouted "Eli, Eli lama sabachtani." Eli means my God.

Why didn't the crucified man said "Aba, Aba lama sabachtani." Aba means father.

Why did Jesus in the Bible never said that he was going to sacrifice himself to human kind with "his blood,"?

Why did 'son of God'(in inverted comas) eaten and eat food? If God had/has a son wouldn't that man not as simbolically a food and wouldn't he be a non eating being?

In the Dead Sea Scrolls even written that he did Polygyny. He was married with more than 1 wife(Polygyny).

Before being crucified, the 'Jesus' (in inverted comas) said "My Father is greater than I, my Father is greater than all..."

And the 'Jesus' (in inverted comas) said "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani (my God, My God...) not My Father, My father...
This to me picturing the habit of Kafirun.
As being said by Allahu 'Azza wa Jalla:

Az Zumaar (39):8 When some trouble toucheth man he crieth unto his Lord turning to Him in repentance: but when He bestoweth a favor upon him as from Himself (man) doth forget what he cried and prayed for before and he doth set up rivals unto Allah thus misleading others from Allah's Path. Say "Enjoy thy blasphemy for a little while: verily thou art (one) of the Companions of the Fire!"

Adh Dhuha(93):1 By the Glorious Morning Light.
2 And by the Night when it is still
3 The guardian-Lord Hath not forsaken thee Nor is He displeased.


Not "My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken me.."

Before being crucified, the 'Jesus' (in inverted comas) said "My Father is greater than I, my Father is greater than all..."

And the 'Jesus' (in inverted comas) said "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani (my God, My God...) not My Father, My father...
This to me picturing the habit of Kafirun.
As being said by Allahu 'Azza wa Jalla:

Az Zumaar (39):8 When some trouble toucheth man he crieth unto his Lord turning to Him in repentance: but when He bestoweth a favor upon him as from Himself (man) doth forget what he cried and prayed for before and he doth set up rivals unto Allah thus misleading others from Allah's Path. Say "Enjoy thy blasphemy for a little while: verily thou art (one) of the Companions of the Fire!"


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace, development and safe from guile be upon who follow the guidance).

[Grace Seeker]

Abdul, I refer you to the Psalm which Jesus was quoting:

Psalmm 22

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

The question is not why did he call out "Eli, Eli lama sabachtani," but why did he turn to quoting that Psalm at that time in his life? And though Jesus only quoted the opening line, I think the answer can be found text itself:
"For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help."




As to some of you other comments, such as those about the Dead Sea scrolls talkiing about Jesus being a polygamist, you've posted this in two other threads and I've showed how it simply isn't so. Even the sources you cite are actually saying quite the opposite. I don't think you care about truth, but just telling whatever fabricated fanciful ideas you care to tell.