If God wants us to follow him ...

[glo]

An atheist friend put this argument to me a while ago:

" If what you say is true, and God is real, and he knows me because he has willed me to be ... then he must know that I am an atheist and all my reasons for being an atheist.
If what you say is true, and God is loving and wants what's best for me, and if what's best for me is to follow God ... then God should want me to become a follower of his. Since he knows what's hindering me from becoming a follower, he should also know what to do or which 'buttons to push' to make me a follower.
If what you say is true, and God is all-powerful, then he should be able to put the right things in place to make me believe.

In the meantime I am happy to wait and see if God decides to move in on me"

I am mentioning this conversation here, because it occurs to me that (apart from the atheist element) the argument is not unlike one I have used here in the LI forum with Muslim friends before:
"If God wanted me to become a Muslim, he would be more than able to guide me in such a way. I am willing and prepared to follow him whereven he leads me."

What do people make of the above argument?
I would love to hear the views of people from different religions and none.

Peace :)

[Grace Seeker]

I think it creates a god with a particular set of character traits -- powerful, coveting worship, manipulative, and imposing -- I don't think that this sort of character is what we see with regard to the nature of God in either Christianity or Islam, so I think people who are waiting for such a forceful hand will ultimately have a long wait. God pricks our conscience to awaken us to his reality, and that people have moral values at all tells me that he has pricked everyone to at least a degree (otherwise we would all be as ammoral as an amoeba), but he leaves the choice of how to seek and respond to his consciousness awakening largely in our own hands. To do any different would be to violate his own character, and I don't see him doing that.

[glo]

God pricks our conscience to awaken us to his reality, and that people have moral values at all tells me that he has priced everyone to at least a degree (otherwise we would all be as ammoral as an amoeba), but he leaves the choice of how to seek and respond to his consciousness awakening largely in our own hands. To do any different would be to violate his own character, and I don't see him doing that.

Thank you for your reply, Grace Seeker.

I understand what you are saying about God's character and the free will we have to make our own choices.

Yet you hear from people who have had very powerful experiences of (what they came to believe to be) God working in their lives.
Sometimes this seems to be at moment in people's lives, when they perhaps were more receptive to God's presence - perhaps at moments of worry, trouble and pain.
Other accounts seems to come completely out of the blue, without being asked for or sought.

The conversion of Saul seems a good example of the latter. He seems a very unlikely candidate to have wished to change his view of God. Seems like God didn't give him all that much choice in the matter ...

Peace

[glo]

IMO, if your atheist friend really is prepared to follow where Allah would lead, then he/she has to at the very least make an earnest plea to Allah - i.e. ask Allah for guidance. If your friend were to do that sincerely, then I have no doubt at all that Allah would bestow guidance.

If your friend didn't ask in that manner, when it is within your friend's capability, then God can't be blamed for your friend's faithlessness.

As a theist I understand you point, Alpha Dude.

But how can an atheist - who lacks the belief in God in the first place - make that shift to 'sincerely ask for God's guidance'?
How do you sincerely ask for something you don't believe to be real??

It must be in God's mercy that he makes allowances for people a fail to/seem unable to believe in him ...

Peace

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Trumble]

The want has to be there. The keenness to find answers has to be there. It can't be a case of your friend arrogantly holding the position that God does not exist at all already, before even trying to find him, cos that would go against 'being willing and prepared to follow'. An open mind must be had, when wanting to be lead.

As an omnipotent, omniscient and entity God must ultimately be responsible for the character traits, wants, arrogance or keenness, and experiences that lead to certain decisions, even if He is not responsible for the decisions themselves (and I find the case for that unconvincing enough). As an omnibenevolent entity, he should indeed be supplying the required circumstances and characteristics even if any actual decision is free.

The argument is a convincing one; certainly rather more convincing than any of the responses to it that I've seen.

[alcurad]

Allah decides what's good or not, he is beyond good and bad, this sort of binary simplicity isn't appropriate when discussing a being beyond comprehension let alone 'worldly' affairs. he is benevolent, but it cannot be understood by humans, we don't see all time spaces, thus we don't know what constitutes good or bad ultimately. mainly it could be said we object to 'evil' since it potentially harms 'us', not from any so called 'altruistic' or similar romantic values, the only reason the self 'exists/lives' is for itself.

should and would don't work either, he is what he is, not how we envision/want him to be.
we cannot know how he is, rather he has given free will, and sent prophets, it's up to us to follow or not. there is never an out of the blue conversion, nor a single measurable moment when someone turns from a belief to another. like all processes it's gradual, naturally, the critical point differs from person to person.

on another note, Newtonian-mechanistic- atheism has been disqualified so long ago, I'm surprised it's still advocated and held as a viable belief. it doesn't take much more than the uncertainty principle to see it's flaws..

[themuffinman]

god creates a mean to follow him. take for example if your playing chess against an opponent, your going to use the rules and regulations of the game to win right? your not going to take out a gun to shoot your opponent to win right? similarly god uses the means of this world to guide us. we can relate to other human beings and he selected the best of them ( the prophets) to reveal himself to them and called them to guide others to the correct path. of course god can reveal himself to anyone and everyone but then whats the point of free will? god created human beings above all his other creations because we have free will unlike the angels who constantly worship him.

[Grace Seeker]

As an omnipotent, omniscient and entity God must ultimately be responsible for the character traits, wants, arrogance or keenness, and experiences that lead to certain decisions, even if He is not responsible for the decisions themselves (and I find the case for that unconvincing enough). As an omnibenevolent entity, he should indeed be supplying the required circumstances and characteristics even if any actual decision is free.

The argument is a convincing one; certainly rather more convincing than any of the responses to it that I've seen.

But did you notice that I dispute the assumption of omnipotence as most people conceive of it. God can't just do any and everything that he might want, because that in itself is a negation of who and what he actually is. Though God is sovereign, he himself limited his power in creating mankind with freewill to accept or reject the wooing that God does. For God to then force himself upon a person would be to violate himself by turning mankind into a different sort of creation (more like that of a puppet) than he made him to be.

Thank you for your reply, Grace Seeker.

I understand what you are saying about God's character and the free will we have to make our own choices.

Yet you hear from people who have had very powerful experiences of (what they came to believe to be) God working in their lives.
Sometimes this seems to be at moment in people's lives, when they perhaps were more receptive to God's presence - perhaps at moments of worry, trouble and pain.
Other accounts seems to come completely out of the blue, without being asked for or sought.

The conversion of Saul seems a good example of the latter. He seems a very unlikely candidate to have wished to change his view of God. Seems like God didn't give him all that much choice in the matter ...

Peace

The stories you cite seem to be the exception, not the rule. One is able to come up with perhaps a handful of them over how many thousand years of human history. But even then, I don't see God actually forcing anyone's hand.

Take a couple more blatant ones that you didn't mention -- I suppose because it goes the other way -- the hardening of Pharoah's heart or of Judas in the position of traitor. Even these instances are not ones where God cast the mold for that person's future. Rather, he saw what was in them, the choices they were already inclined toward of their own volition, and magnified the result of those choices in their lives.

I think this is exactly what happened with Paul as well. Here was someone on fire to do something for God, unforunately his knowledge of God was limited to just what he had read. So, God set him up with a personal one-on-one encounter and let Paul's on heart make the decision as to how he would respond to it.

I heard former President Clinton say something interesting today as he was reflecting on President Abraham Lincoln. He said that 90% of life is not what happens to us, but how we choose to respond to what happens. Doesn't that address your question?

[alcurad]

...But how can an atheist - who lacks the belief in God in the first place - make that shift to 'sincerely ask for God's guidance'?
How do you sincerely ask for something you don't believe to be real??
Peace

atheists do have gods, they just make a habit of denying that.

and grace, "For God to then force himself upon a person would be to violate himself by turning mankind into a different sort of creation (more like that of a puppet) than he made him to be."
:)

[Trumble]

A

on another note, Newtonian-mechanistic- atheism has been disqualified so long ago, I'm surprised it's still advocated and held as a viable belief. it doesn't take much more than the uncertainty principle to see it's flaws..

What is 'Newtonian-mechanistic-atheism', and how do you believe it (or it's 'disqualification') to be relevant? The issues, or two of them here, are free will, determinism and predestination; debates originating long before Newton (take the Stoics and Epicurans, for example). All theories on that subject are'flawed', which is why the issue is still being discussed after 2,000 years or so. Quantum mechanics doesn't help; one interpretation even 'believes' quantum mechanics to be deterministic and Newtonian mechanics indeterministic! Even if you accept it as indeterministic, 'free will' is no better off, 'decisions' (if you assume they are made dependent on quantum events) become merely chance events. It's irrelevant in this context anyway; if you assume there is a God he must have both designed the uncertainty principle and be aware of every possible event it was, is, or will be responsible for.

[Grace Seeker]

and grace, "For God to then force himself upon a person would be to violate himself by turning mankind into a different sort of creation (more like that of a puppet) than he made him to be."
:)

Having just read that line again in your post rather than mine, I see something else.

"For God to then force himself upon a person...."

Of whom else in this world do we use such language? The only category of person I can think of that we describe as "forcing himself" on another is a rapist. How unlike God to be some sort of spiritual rapist forcing his affections on someone who does not want them. That isn't love. And, above all things, as a Christian, I recognize that God is love. Therefore God cannot do what the questioner proposes and still be the God who he is. It is like asking why did God make the sky green and the grass blue, it is a nonsense question asked only by people who haven't taken the time to observe the true nature of the world that God actually created and are living with a false view of what is and is not.

[glo]

He said that 90% of life is not what happens to us, but how we choose to respond to what happens. Doesn't that address your question?

Yes, that's worth digesting carefully!
Thank you :)

[AntiKarateKid]

An atheist friend put this argument to me a while ago:

" If what you say is true, and God is real, and he knows me because he has willed me to be ... then he must know that I am an atheist and all my reasons for being an atheist.
If what you say is true, and God is loving and wants what's best for me, and if what's best for me is to follow God ... then God should want me to become a follower of his. Since he knows what's hindering me from becoming a follower, he should also know what to do or which 'buttons to push' to make me a follower.
If what you say is true, and God is all-powerful, then he should be able to put the right things in place to make me believe.

In the meantime I am happy to wait and see if God decides to move in on me"

I am mentioning this conversation here, because it occurs to me that (apart from the atheist element) the argument is not unlike one I have used here in the LI forum with Muslim friends before:
"If God wanted me to become a Muslim, he would be more than able to guide me in such a way. I am willing and prepared to follow him whereven he leads me."

What do people make of the above argument?
I would love to hear the views of people from different religions and none.

Peace :)

Are you saying Allah hasn't guided you to Islam while posting this on an ISLAMIC forum????

It truth, no matter how much some people would like to characterize themselves as truly "truth seeking", they are not. Their own desires blind them.

A man who adores the idea of blood atonement but refuses to question it's scriptural basis is not truth seeking. A man who bases belief on firm scriptural evidence along with a desire to know Allah is the real truth seeker.


You have been here long enough to form barriers against Islam in your mind. Only you stand in the way of yourself becoming Muslim.


On a side note:

I find it ironic that you have this under your post.

"Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.
See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. "

And yet you don't extend this same principle to the Bible. When debates show flaws or inconsistencies in the Bible, you cast them aside as irrelevant yet earnestly hope for God's guidance.

This strikes me as quite the paradox.

[glo]

Take a couple more blatant ones that you didn't mention -- I suppose because it goes the other way -- the hardening of Pharoah's heart or of Judas in the position of traitor. Even these instances are not ones where God cast the mold for that person's future. Rather, he saw what was in them, the choices they were already inclined toward of their own volition, and magnified the result of those choices in their lives.

If I know my atheist friend at all, he would counter-argue that when God (if he existed) created Pharao and Judas he made them with those characteristics which made them be hard-hearted and become a traitor.

I had some time to ponder this whilst I was gently stirring a white sauce until it reached boiling point ... and I came to the conclusion that this takes us to (what some people refer to as) the nature-vs-nurture-debate.

Clearly there are some properties we are born with and which are beyond our own influence - our intellect almost certainly, and perhaps some personality traits too.
Isn't the question to which extend who we are is determined before we are even born, and to which extend we can influence how we react and what we become?

Peace

[glo]

You have been here long enough to form barriers against Islam in your mind. Only you stand in the way of yourself becoming Muslim.


On a side note:

I find it ironic that you have this under your post.

"Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.
See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. "

And yet you don't extend this same principle to the Bible. When debates show flaws or inconsistencies in the Bible, you cast them aside as irrelevant yet earnestly hope for God's guidance.

This strikes me as quite the paradox.

I have to disagree with you, AntiKarateKid.
On the contrary, during the time I have spent here in LI, I have removed many misconceptions I had about Islam.
But he barriers which remain seem indeed unsurmountable.

However, I am not worried. I firmly believe in God's guidance and in his presence in my life.

I can sense your frustration when people remain unconvinced by the many arguments for Islam, which are presented in this forum.

You may question my sincerity in seeking God, but - with all due respect - it is not for you to pass judgement on that.

May God lead us all on the right path, and may we all keep our hearts wide open to his loving guidance.

Peace :)

[AntiKarateKid]

I have to disagree with you, AntiKarateKid.
On the contrary, during the time I have spent here in LI, I have removed many misconceptions I had about Islam.
But he barriers which remain seem indeed unsurmountable.

However, I am not worried. I firmly believe in God's guidance and in his presence in my life.

I can sense your frustration when people remain unconvinced by the many arguments for Islam, which are presented in this forum.

You may question my sincerity in seeking God, but - with all due respect - it is not for you to pass judgement on that.

May God lead us all on the right path, and may we all keep our hearts wide open to his loving guidance.

Peace :)

I understand where youare coming from but don't you get uncomfortable when someone brings up an argument against the Bible and youdont have an answer to it?

Perhaps that question was a way of God guiding you. But to insist that you have a firm belief in God's presence yet dismiss the questions that arise in your faith, brings some.... awkwardness into your relationship with God doesnt it?

[Grace Seeker]

If I may interject into the middle of your conversation:

I understand where youare coming from but don't you get uncomfortable when someone brings up an argument against the Bible and youdont have an answer to it?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the nature of the question.

I freely admit that there are somethings I don't know. Somethings I don't expect to ever know in this life. And somethings I don't know that I feel I should have a better answer for than I do.

Rarely are the set of questions posed by those who are actually trying to attack the faith the questions that keep me awake at night. More often the difficult questions are those posed by other Christians seeking to more deeply explore it.

There are questions about all faiths and those who lack any faith that remain unanswered for me. But despite the questions I may have, the Christian response, even if not perfect in every detail, remains the most convincing to me.

How would you respond if that question was reversed and put to you with regard to Islam?

[AntiKarateKid]

If I may interject into the middle of your conversation:

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the nature of the question.

I freely admit that there are somethings I don't know. Something I don't expect to ever know in this life. And somethings I don't know that I feel I should have a better answer for than I do.

Rarely are the set of questions posed by those who are actually trying to attack the faith, more often they are posed by other Christians seeking to more deeply explore it.

There are questions about all faiths and those who lack any faith that remain unanswered for me. But despite the questions I may have, the Christian response, even if not perfect in every detail, remains the most convincing to me.

How would you respond if that question was reversed and put to you with regard to Islam?

Personally, I get distressed when I dont understand something about Islam and try as much as humanly possible to get an answer. Otherwise, the Islamic response has been the most convincing tome. Perfect book. Easy to follow. And a plethora of reliable information.

[Grace Seeker]

the Christian response, even if not perfect in every detail, remains the most convincing to me.

the Islamic response has been the most convincing to me.

Hence our respective faiths.

Personally, I get distressed when I dont understand something about Islam and try as much as humanly possible to get an answer.

I can understand that. I just suppose that life experience has tempered some of the angst I used to feel and really since I feel secure in the central core of my faith, the peripheral questions don't seem significant enough to get all that distressed over them.

[AntiKarateKid]

Hence our respective faiths.



I can understand that. I just suppose that life experience has tempered some of the angst I used to feel and really since I feel secure in the central core of my faith, the peripheral questions don't seem significant enough to get all that distressed over them.

But just because we are convinced by our respective faiths doesnt change the fact that one of is is right and one is wrong.

We both can put forward the reasons and arguments behind why we are convinced by our respective faiths and see which stands up to the test.

Our appreciation for our religion should not lie in an isolated vacuum. God has put forth truth, and we should understand why our religion is better than all others.

[justahumane]

Personally, I get distressed when I dont understand something about Islam and try as much as humanly possible to get an answer. Otherwise, the Islamic response has been the most convincing tome. Perfect book. Easy to follow. And a plethora of reliable information.

Well, so U find it easy to follow, as holy quran itself claims. Yet the laws of the book has been rejected as unpractical by almost all the Islamic nations. Though not in words, but in action rather. However muslims always claims that they follow the guidence set for them by ALLAH, yet nations find it fit to write their own laws. Perfect example of hypocricy, isnt it?

[glo]

Hi all

Before this thread goes completely off topic, can we perhaps return to the original topic?
Thank you.

Peace :)

[abdullah_001]

Well, so U find it easy to follow, as holy quran itself claims. Yet the laws of the book has been rejected as unpractical by almost all the Islamic nations. Though not in words, but in action rather. However muslims always claims that they follow the guidence set for them by ALLAH, yet nations find it fit to write their own laws. Perfect example of hypocricy, isnt it?

First of all, there is no nation today that can be called an "Islamic nation", at least not to my knowledge. And if there is an Islamic nation that practices the laws of Islam then it would never call the laws of Islam as impractical.

Islam has existed since the beginning of mankind and the rules set for us have existed for 1400 yrs, so Islam is anything but impractical as you can see.

When any country passes a law that contradicts the law of Islam then the muslim is bound to follows the law of Islam first. There is nothing wrong if a nation passes a law that does not contradict that laws of Islam. What you said can only be possible if the laws made by such nation contradict the laws of Islam. Since you claim it to be so I want to know which law is it that you know of in which Muslim country that contradicts the laws of Islam? If a nation does this then the blame goes on that nation and not Islam. You cannot say sleeping on the floor is impractical because someone said it is impractical.

[justahumane]

First of all, there is no nation today that can be called an "Islamic nation", at least not to my knowledge. And if there is an Islamic nation that practices the laws of Islam then it would never call the laws of Islam as impractical.

Islam has existed since the beginning of mankind and the rules set for us have existed for 1400 yrs, so Islam is anything but impractical as you can see.

When any country passes a law that contradicts the law of Islam then the muslim is bound to follows the law of Islam first. There is nothing wrong if a nation passes a law that does not contradict that laws of Islam. What you said can only be possible if the laws made by such nation contradict the laws of Islam. Since you claim it to be so I want to know which law is it that you know of in which Muslim country that contradicts the laws of Islam? If a nation does this then the blame goes on that nation and not Islam. You cannot say sleeping on the floor is impractical because someone said it is impractical.

Well I might be wrong in calling them Islamic Nation instead of Muslim Nations. However the situation remains the same. Those who swear by Islam doesnt find ALLAH's laws good enough to declare them as law of the land.

I have never called nor I intend to call Islam impractical for obvious reasons.

I dont think that laws of any Nation in the world contradicts Islamic laws. But this is not an excuse for muslim nations for not opting to adopt ALLAH's laws
but replacing them by man-made laws. But if U find nothing wrong with muslims in writing their own laws than its up to U. I differ. Again I have never blamed Islam for no nation adopting its laws. Its up to muslims living in that particular Nation to choose which laws they find best for them.

Bottomline is that its not Islamic laws that are impractical but muslim nations around the world have made it look impractical.

[- Qatada -]

The answer to the original question could be that God has given the signs through revelation, its upto man to reflect, ponder and understand their reality to be guided. So these signs are sufficient for mankind as a guidance for His existence.

We mentioned before on our Islamic-Life forums;

Atheists say that if we saw God/Allah, we would believe in Him. It's because we don't see Him that we don't believe in Him.

The response to such a point can be that if you did see Allah, would you then believe in Him? Or would you start to doubt this too (saying things such as 'I think God should have been like this, or that what i saw was an illusion etc?)

The atheist might say that Allah could have made the person believe that it is really Allah, but then you can pose the question - Then where's the freewill/choice to believe?

http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a.../god-1590.html

[Zamtsa]

Al Baqarah (2):213 Mankind was one single nation and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book after the clear Signs came to them did not differ among themselves except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the believers to the truth concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.


Al Maidah (5):17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah if His Will were to destroy AlMasih the son of Mary his mother and all everyone that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the skies and the earth and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."


Ibrahim (14):32 It is Allah Who hath created the heavens and the earth and sendeth down rain from the skies and with it bringeth out fruits wherewith to feed you; it is He Who hath made the ships subject to you that they may sail through the sea by His command; and the rivers (also) hath He made subject to you.


Al Fath (48):11 The desert Arabs who lagged behind will say to thee: "We were engaged in (looking after) our flocks and herds and our families; do thou then ask forgiveness for us." They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. Say: "Who then has any power at all (to intervene) on your behalf with Allah if His will is to give you some loss or to give you some profit? but Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace, development and safe from guile be upon who follow the guidance).

[Grace Seeker]

But just because we are convinced by our respective faiths doesnt change the fact that one of is is right and one is wrong.

We both can put forward the reasons and arguments behind why we are convinced by our respective faiths and see which stands up to the test.

Our appreciation for our religion should not lie in an isolated vacuum. God has put forth truth, and we should understand why our religion is better than all others.

I completely agree with your theory and process. But just as in making that examination you and I have reached different conclusions regarding our respective faith, so it might be that others reach a no faith conclusion. I suspect this is not so much a result of the process, but of apriori assumption that we may not even be aware of operating in our lives.

[Zamtsa]

Al Baqarah (2):90 Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases; thus have they drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith.


Al Baqarah (2):105 It is never the wish of those without faith among the people of the Book nor of the Pagans that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.


Al Baqarah (2):212 The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measures on whom He will.


Al Baqarah (2):213 Mankind was one single nation and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book after the clear Signs came to them did not differ among themselves except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the believers to the truth concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.


Al Baqarah (2):247 Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you." They say: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority and he is not even gifted with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath chosen him above you and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess; Allah granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things."


Al Baqarah (2):253 Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If Allah had so willed succeeding generations would not have fought among each other after clear (Signs) had come to them but they (chose) to wrangle some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed they would not have fought each other; but Allah fulfilleth His plan.


Al Baqarah (2):255 Allah! there is no Allah but He the living the Self-subsisting Eternal. No slumber can seize him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to his creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of his knowledge except as He willeth. His throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High the Supreme (in glory).


Al Baqarah (2):269 He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the message but men of understanding.


Al Baqarah (2):272 It is not required of thee (O Apostles) to set them on the right path but Allah sets on the right path whom He pleaseth. Whatever of good ye give benefits your own souls and ye shall only do so seeking the "Face" of Allah. Whatever good ye give, shall be rendered back to you and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.


Al Baqarah (2):284 To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it Allah calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and punisheth whom He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.


Al Imran (3):6 He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He the Exalted in Might the Wise.


Al Imran (3):37 Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty; to the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (her) chamber to see her he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah: for Allah provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."


Al Imran (3):40 He said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son seeing I am very old and my wife is barren?" "Thus" was the answer "doth Allah accomplish what He willeth."


Al Imran (3):47 She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth; when He hath decreed a plan He but saith to it `Be' and it is!


Al Imran (3):73 "And believe no one unless he follows your religion." Say: "True guidance is the guidance of Allah; (fear ye) lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) like unto that which was sent unto you. Or that those (receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord." Say: "All bounties are in the hand of Allah: He granteth them to whom He pleaseth; and Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things."


Al Imran (3):74 For His Mercy He specially chooseth whom He pleaseth: for Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded.


Al Imran (3): 179 Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which ye are now until He separates what is evil from what is good. Nor will He disclose to you the secrets of the Unseen. But He chooses of his Apostles (for the purpose) whom He pleases. So believe in Allah and His Apostles: and if ye believe and do right ye have a reward without measure.


An Nisa (4):48 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with him; but He forgiveth anything else to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed.


An Nisa (4):49 Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay but Allah doth sanctify whom He pleaseth but never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing.


An Nisa (4):116 Allah forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him: but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah hath strayed far far away (from the right).


Al Maidah (5):1 O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals with the exceptions named: but animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the Sacred Precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His Will and Plan.


Al Maidah (5):17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is AlMasih the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah if His Will were to destroy AlMasih the son of Mary his mother and all everyone that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."


Al Maidah (5)18 (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah and His beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay ye are but men of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the skies and the earth and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)."


Al Maidah (5):40 Knowest thou not that to Allah (alone) belongeth the dominion of the skies and the earth? He punisheth whom He pleaseth and He forgiveth whom He pleaseth: and Allah hath power over all things.


Al Maidah (5):54 O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his faith soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers mighty against the rejectors fighting in the way of Allah and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth: and Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things.


Al An'aam (6):39 Those who reject Our Signs are deaf and dumb in the midst of darkness profound: whom Allah willeth He leaveth to wander whom He willeth He placeth on the way that is straight.


Al An'aam (6):88 This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him all that they did would be vain for them.


Al An'aam (6):125 Those whom Allah (in His Plan) willeth to guide He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying He maketh their breast close and constricted as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.


Al An'aam (6):133 Thy Lord is Self-sufficient full of Mercy: if it were His Will He could destroy you and in your place appoint whom He will as your successors even as he raised you up from the posterity of other people.


Al A'raf (7):128 And Moses said unto his people: Seek help in Allah and endure. Lo! the earth is Allah's. He giveth it for an inheritance to whom He will. And lo! the sequel is for those who keep their duty (unto Him).


Al A'raf (7):188 Say: "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen I should have multiplied all good and no evil should have touched me I am but a warner and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."


At Taubah (9):15 And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) To whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.


At Taubah (9):27 Again will Allah after this turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.


Yunus (10):25 And Allah summoneth to the abode of peace, and leadeth whom He pleaseth to a straight path.


Yunus (10):49 Say: "I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as Allah willeth. To every People is a term appointed: when their term is reached not an hour can they cause delay nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation).


Yunus (10):107 If Allah do touch thee with hurt there is none can remove it but He: if He do design some benefit for thee there is none can keep back His favor: He causeth it to reach whomsoever of His servants He pleaseth. And He is the Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.


An Nahl (16):93 If Allah so willed He could make you all one people: but He leaves straying whom He pleases and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.


An Nur (24):21 O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).


An Nur (24):38 That Allah may reward them according to the best of their deeds and add even more for them out of His Grace: for Allah doth provide for those whom He will without measure.


An Nur (24):43 Seest thou not that Allah makes the clouds move gently then joins them together then makes them into a heap? then wilt thou see rain issue forth from their midst. And He sends down from the sky mountain masses (of clouds) wherein is hail: He strikes therewith whom He pleases and He turns it away fro whom He pleases. The vivid flash of His lightning well-nigh blinds the sight.


An Nur (24):45 And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills: for verily Allah has power over all things.


An Nur (24):46 We have indeed sent down Signs that make things manifest: and Allah guides whom He wills to a way that is straight.


An Naml (27):87 And the Day that the Trumpet will be sounded then will be smitten with terror those who are in the heavens and those who are on earth except such as Allah will please (to exempt): and all shall come to His (Presence) as beings conscious of their lowliness.


Al Qashash (28):56 It is true thou wilt not be able to guide everyone whom thou lovest: but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.


Al Ankabut (29):21 "He punishes whom He pleases and He grants mercy to whom He pleases and towards Him are ye turned.


Al Ankabut (29):62 Allah enlarges the sustenance (which He gives) to whichever of His servants He pleases; and He (similarly) grants by (strict) measure (as He pleases): for Allah has full knowledge of all things.


Rum (30):5 With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will and He is Exalted in Might Most Merciful.


Rum (30):37 See they not that Allah enlarges the provision and restricts it to whomsoever He pleases? Verily in that are Signs for those who believe.


Rum (30):54 It is Allah Who created you in a state of (helpless) weakness then gave (you) strength after weakness then after strength give (you) weakness and a hoary head: He creates as He wills and it is He Who has all knowledge and power.


Al Ahzab (33):24 That Allah may reward the men of Truth for their Truth and punish the Hypocrites if that be His Will or turn to them in Mercy: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.


Saba' (34):36 Say: "Verily my Lord enlarges and restricts the provision to whom He pleases but most men understand not."


Saba' (34):39 Say: "Verily my Lord enlarges and restricts the Sustenance to such of His servants as He pleases: and nothing do ye spend in the least (in his cause) but He replaces it: for He is the Best of those Who grant Sustenance.


Al Fathir (35):1 Praise be to Allah Who created (out of nothing) the skies and the earth Who made the angels messengers with wings two or three or four (Pairs): He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things.


Al Fathir (35):8 Is he then to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring so that he looks upon it as good (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!


Al Fathir (35):22 Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.


Shad (38):6 And the leaders among them go away (impatiently) (saying) "Walk ye away and remain constant to your gods! For this is truly a thing designed (against you)!


Az Zumaar (39):4 Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is Allah the One the Irresistible.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

[glo]

Greetings, Abdul Thayyib

Rather than just copying and pasting, do you want to share with us what these verses mean to you within the context of the discussion topic?

Thank you, and peace :)

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings, Abdul Thayyib

Rather than just copying and pasting, do you want to share with us what these verses mean to you within the context of the discussion topic?

Thank you, and peace :)

I second that actually. :D

[Danah]

I did not read all the replies above, sorry if there is anything repeated here.

True that God knows what is best for us, but he also offer the following:
1. Choices in front of our eyes
2. Minds to be able to think, criticize, accept and reject

so its up to the human at the end to chose.

and as it have been said in Quran.....
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error
[1:265]

so its up to us at the end to chose, all tools are in our hands

[Cabdullahi]

aunty glo ...tell your friend.... that god has pushed all the right buttons,and gave you crystal clear indications to make you ponder and recognize allah's existence but,you ignored them all....

[Zamtsa]

Greetings, Abdul Thayyib

Rather than just copying and pasting, do you want to share with us what these verses mean to you within the context of the discussion topic?

Thank you, and peace :)

This one could be bring to the topic:

Al A'raf (7):126 "But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy and take our souls unto thee as Muslims (who bow to thy will)"!


Yunus (10):72 "But if ye turn back (consider): no reward have I asked of you: my reward is only due from Allah and I have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah's Will (in Islam)."


Yunus (10):84 Moses said: "O my People! if ye do (really) believe in Allah then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)."


Yunus (10):90 We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length when overwhelmed with the flood he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."


Hud (11):14 "If then they (your false gods) answer not your (call) know ye that this Revelation is sent down (replete) with the knowledge of Allah and that there is no god but He! Will ye even then submit (to Islam)?"


Yusuf (12):67 Further he said; "O my sons! enter not all by one gate: enter ye by different gates. Not that I can profit you aught against Allah (with my advice): none can command except Allah: on Him do I put my trust and let all that trust put their trust on Him."


Ibrahim (14):12 "No reason have we why we should not put our trust on Allah. Indeed He has guided us to the Ways we (follow). We shall certainly bear with patience all the hurt you may cause us: for those who put their trust should put their trust on Allah."


An Nahl (16):81 It is Allah who made out of the things He created some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete his favors on you that ye may bow to His will (in Islam).


An Nahl (16):89 One day We shall raise from all peoples a witness against them from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things a guide a Mercy and glad tidings to Muslims.


An Nahl (16):102 Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth in order to strengthen those who believe and as a guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.


Al Anbiya (21):108 Say: "What has come to me by inspiration is that your Allah is One Allah: will ye therefore bow to His Will (in Islam)?"


An Naml (27):31 " `Be ye not arrogant against me but come to me in submission to the true Religion.' "


An Naml (27):38 He said (to his own men): "Ye Chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"


An Naml (27):42 So when she arrived she was asked "Is this thy throne?" She said "It was just like this; and knowledge was bestowed on us in advance of this and we have submitted to Allah (in Islam)."


An Naml (27):44 She was asked to enter that lofty Palace: but when she saw it she thought it was a lake of water and she (tucked up her skirts) uncovering her legs. He said. "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass." She said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul: I do (now) submit (in Islam) with Solomon to the Lord of the Worlds."


An Naml (27):81 Nor canst thou be a guide to the Blind (to prevent them) from straying; only those wilt thou get to listen who believe in Our Signs and they will bow in Islam.


An Naml (27):91 For me I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this City Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belong) all things: and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will.


Al Ankabut (29):46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book except with means better (than mere disputation) unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."


Ar Rum 30:53 Nor canst thou lead back the blind from their straying: only those wilt thou make to hear who believe in Our Signs and submit (their wills in Islam).


Ash Shafat (37):103 So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah) and He had laid Him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice)


Az Zumar (39):12 "And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam."


Az Zumaar (39):38 If indeed thou ask them who it is that created the heavens and the earth they would be sure to say "Allah." Say: "See ye then? The things that ye invoke besides Allah can they if Allah wills some Penalty for me remove His Penalty? Or if He wills some Grace for me can they keep back His Grace?" Say: "Sufficient is Allah for me! In Him trust those who put their trust."


Az Zukhruf (43):69 (Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam.


Al Ahqaf (46):15 We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents: in pain did his mother bear him and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years he says "O my Lord! grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed upon me and upon both my parents and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam."


Adz Dzariyat (51):36 But We found not there any just (Muslim) persons except in one house:


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

[abdullah_001]

Well I might be wrong in calling them Islamic Nation instead of Muslim Nations. However the situation remains the same. Those who swear by Islam doesnt find ALLAH's laws good enough to declare them as law of the land.

I have never called nor I intend to call Islam impractical for obvious reasons.

I dont think that laws of any Nation in the world contradicts Islamic laws. But this is not an excuse for muslim nations for not opting to adopt ALLAH's laws
but replacing them by man-made laws. But if U find nothing wrong with muslims in writing their own laws than its up to U. I differ. Again I have never blamed Islam for no nation adopting its laws. Its up to muslims living in that particular Nation to choose which laws they find best for them.

Bottomline is that its not Islamic laws that are impractical but muslim nations around the world have made it look impractical.

Well... if by "Those who swear by Islam doesnt find ALLAH's laws good enough to declare them as law of the land" you mean the leaders of Muslim nations then I'd agree with you. Like yourself, I also think that we should obey and follow the laws of Allah (swt) and I'm really glad that we both can agree on this. Alhamdulillah.

To be honest I may have misunderstood your original post because to me it initially seemed as though you were accounting Islamic laws as being impractical. I only wanted to rebuke that notion and since you corrected my misunderstanding I apologize to you for making that post.

Anyway though, we both agree that there should be Islamic law in Muslim land. Peace.

[Cabdullahi]

Your atheist friend is foolishly waiting for some sort of fancy tricks or miracles to happen but in order to believe, you need faith and faith its self is achieved when you totally believe in what you cannot see.....

[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
[Yusufali 2:3] Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.


the above coupled with perseverance and understanding is necessary,like i said before the right buttons were pushed,from the humming of the birds,the rain that falls,the every breath taken,the feeling of unwellness that is followed by full recovery all these things are signs.......and if she ignored and didn't take heed of the many hints then alllah help her inshallah despite her unmindfulness :(

[YusufNoor]

An atheist friend put this argument to me a while ago:

" If what you say is true, and God is real, and he knows me because he has willed me to be ... then he must know that I am an atheist and all my reasons for being an atheist.
If what you say is true, and God is loving and wants what's best for me, and if what's best for me is to follow God ... then God should want me to become a follower of his. Since he knows what's hindering me from becoming a follower, he should also know what to do or which 'buttons to push' to make me a follower.
If what you say is true, and God is all-powerful, then he should be able to put the right things in place to make me believe.

In the meantime I am happy to wait and see if God decides to move in on me"
Allah knows best, BUT! you should ask your self, "from where did i get this wonderful body that functions so well" and "this food that i get to eat, it tastes so good, where does it come from?"; "the beautiful scenery around me, where did it come from?; "the moon and the sun have such an effect on our ability to live, how did that happen?" those wonderful stars at night that we can guide ourselves by, how did they get there?"
did you make them???

in fact we have Surah ar-Rahman:

1:The Most Beneficent (Allah)!
2: Has taught (you mankind) the Quran (by His Mercy).
3: He created man.
4: He taught him eloquent speech.
5: The sun and the moon run on their fixed courses (exactly) calculated with measured out stages for each (for reckoning, etc.).
6: And the herbs (or stars) and the trees both prostrate.
7: And the heaven He has raised high, and He has set up the Balance.
8: In order that you may not transgress (due) balance.
9: And observe the weight with equity and do not make the balance deficient.
10: And the earth He has put for the creatures.
11: Therein are fruits, date-palms producing sheathed fruit-stalks (enclosing dates).
12: And also corn, with (its) leaves and stalk for fodder, and sweet-scented plants.
13: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
14: He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of pottery.
15: And the jinns did He create from a smokeless flame of fire.
16: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
17: (He is) the Lord of the two easts (places of sunrise during early summer and early winter) and the Lord of the two wests (places of sunset during early summer and early winter).
18: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
19: He has let loosed the two seas (the salt water and the sweet) meeting together.
20: Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress.
21: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
22: Out of them both come out pearl and coral.
23: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
24: And His are the ships going and coming in the seas, like mountains.
25: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
26: Whatsoever is on it (the earth) will perish.
27: And the Face of your Lord full of Majesty and Honour will abide forever.
28: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
29: Whosoever is in the heavens and on earth begs of Him (its needs from Him). Every day He has a matter to bring forth (such as giving honour to some, disgrace to some, life to some, death to some, etc.)!
30: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
31: We shall attend to you, O you two classes (jinns and men)!
32: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
33: O assembly of jinns and men! If you have power to pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, then pass (them)! But you will never be able to pass them, except with authority (from Allah)!
34: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
35: There will be sent against you both, smokeless flames of fire and (molten) brass, and you will not be able to defend yourselves.
36: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
37: Then when the heaven is rent asunder, and it becomes rosy or red like red-oil, or red hide.
38: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
39: So on that Day no question will be asked of man or jinn as to his sin, (because they have already been known from their faces either white or black).
40: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
41: The Mujrimun (polytheists, criminals, sinners, etc.) will be known by their marks (black faces), and they will be seized by their forelocks and their feet.
42: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
43: This is Hell which the Mujrimun (polytheists, criminals, sinners, etc.) denied.
44: They will go between it (Hell) and the boiling hot water!
45: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
46: But for him who [the true believer of Islamic Monotheism who performs all the duties ordained by Allah and His Messenger Muhammad SAW , and keeps away (abstain) from all kinds of sin and evil deeds prohibited in Islam and] fears the standing before his Lord, there will be two Gardens (i.e. in Paradise).
47: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
48: With spreading branches;
49: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
50: In them (both) will be two springs flowing (free)
51: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
52: In them (both) will be every kind of fruit in pairs.
53: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
54: Reclining upon the couches lined with silk brocade, and the fruits of the two Gardens will be near at hand.
55: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
56: Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.
57: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
58: (In beauty) they are like rubies and coral.
59: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
60: Is there any reward for good other than good?
61: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
62: And besides these two, there are two other Gardens (i.e. in Paradise).
63: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
64: Dark green (in colour).
65: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
66: In them (both) will be two springs gushing forth water.
67: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
68: In them (both) will be fruits, and date- palms and pomegranates.
69: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
70: Therein (gardens) will be fair (wives) good and beautiful;
71: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
72: Houris (beautiful, fair females) restrained in pavilions;
73: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
74: Whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them.
75: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
76: Reclining on green cushions and rich beautiful mattresses.
77: Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
78: Blessed be the Name of your Lord (Allah), the Owner of Majesty and Honour.

it seems that Allah[SWT] has already "called the question!" and we are warned in Surah TaHa:

[20.124] And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.
[20.125] He shall say: My Lord! why hast Thou raised me blind and I was a seeing one indeed?
[20.126] He will say: Even so, Our communications came to you but you neglected them; even thus shall you be forsaken this day.
[20.127] And thus do We recompense him who is extravagant and does not believe in the communications of his Lord, and certainly the chastisement of the hereafter is severer and more

I am mentioning this conversation here, because it occurs to me that (apart from the atheist element) the argument is not unlike one I have used here in the LI forum with Muslim friends before:
"If God wanted me to become a Muslim, he would be more than able to guide me in such a way. I am willing and prepared to follow him whereven he leads me."

What do people make of the above argument?
I would love to hear the views of people from different religions and none.

Peace :)

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i reckon anyone can BS us or other humans. but, to attempt to do the same with the One True God? after all He has given us? and after all of the signs He has given us?

well, some things just don't appear all that well thought out!

:w:

[Pomak]

Your atheist friend is foolishly waiting for some sort of fancy tricks or miracles to happen but in order to believe, you need faith and faith its self is achieved when you totally believe in what you cannot see.....

[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
[Yusufali 2:3] Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.


the above coupled with perseverance and understanding is necessary,like i said before the right buttons were pushed,from the humming of the birds,the rain that falls,the every breath taken,the feeling of unwellness that is followed by full recovery all these things are signs.......and if she ignored and didn't take heed of the many hints then alllah help her inshallah despite her unmindfulness :(

Some people do get signs. I remember this one convert said he opened up the quran and the 1st sentence was "have i not shown you enough signs to believe", just after he asked for a sign lol.

But yeah God ain't going to hold your hand like a baby and give you 35,000 signs.

[alcurad]

to a believer in the myth of rationalism: an impossibility can't be proven, they consider miracles and such impossibilities.

"And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old." Al An'am:25