How can God dwell inside of you?

[rpwelton]

OK, so this is another trinity-related question, although it doesn't have to do with the confusing nature of the doctrine, but rather the "Holy Ghost" element of it.

So my understanding is that the Holy Ghost is the part of God that lives inside each and every Christian. This spirit causes the person to live a Christian life. I also know that this belief has different meanings to different people, but I think that's the jist of it, right?

OK, so then my question would be this: if God (or a part of Him) is actually living inside of a person, how could that person commit even the smallest, minute sin? The Bible says that God cannot be in the presence of sin, so how can God, Who is Perfect, dwell inside of a creature which is by nature, imperfect?

Thanks!

[mkh4JC]

Well, the Bible warns about this. Here's what Paul says in Corinthians:

'Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.' 1 Corinthians: 6: 18-20.

There's also these verses, illustrating that when you sin as a Christian then God will discipline you for it. I can very much attest to this as I did something really stupid when I first accepted Christ and I have been suffering under God's discipline ever since.
The Bible calls this chastening:

'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?...

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-9, 11

It all comes back to free will though. God has ways of straightening you out if you sin as a Christian, and if you don't endure the chastisement that he has placed in your life then, as the scripture states, he will just take you out of the world.

[The Khan]

Allah-u-Abha,

This is not the view of any religion. It's the view of the philosopher, James Ray, and I agree with him on this matter. It can answer your question on the Holy Spirit. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAV3VLFZhs0

Peace, love, and light,

Minhaj

[rpwelton]

Well, the Bible warns about this. Here's what Paul says in Corinthians:

'Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.' 1 Corinthians: 6: 18-20.

There's also these verses, illustrating that when you sin as a Christian then God will discipline you for it. I can very much attest to this as I did something really stupid when I first accepted Christ and I have been suffering under God's discipline ever since.
The Bible calls this chastening:

'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?...

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-9, 11

It all comes back to free will though. God has ways of straightening you out if you sin as a Christian, and if you don't endure the chastisement that he has placed in your life then, as the scripture states, he will just take you out of the world.

OK, so God disciplines you. But if according to the Bible, God can't even in the presence of sin, then how can he live inside of a person? It would mean that every time a Christian sins, God "abandons" that body.

Which would mean that God is not with you at all times.

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[mkh4JC]

OK, so God disciplines you. But if according to the Bible, God can't even in the presence of sin, then how can he live inside of a person? It would mean that every time a Christian sins, God "abandons" that body.

Which would mean that God is not with you at all times.

Well, God won't tolerate a sinner in his presence. But what you put forth is in reference to heaven. We still have hope and a chance to know God and to do his will while we are on this side of existance. And as I said, it has to do with free will. If you sin as a Christian, then you have to accept the responsibility of your actions. If you continue to sin, and choose not to be subject to God's discipline, then God may execute judgement on you, taking you out of the world.

And a Christian sinning doesn't have to be the same as when a sinner sins (and in most cases it probably isn't). Me for instance, I sinned when I first accepted Christ (back in the summer of 2002) but it wasn't continuous sinning. Basically the devil took advantage of me when I first accepted Christ, and I fell into sin, but--as I said--it wasn't continuous. And so thus I have been suffering for things that I did way back since 2002.

Some Christians too don't believe that you can lose your salvation. It is true that Jesus says he will never leave you nor forsake you as a Christian, but that doesn't mean you can't leave him. The Bible also says that there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.

And I guess this would be a good quote concerning what you have brought up:

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit dwells in the same body the Christian dwells in, and the old nature of a Christian is as wicked as the devil if not more so. Have you not read, "The heart is deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS, and desperately wicked: who can know it" (Jer. 17:9)? The heart of man, including Christians, is extremely wicked.

And also here:

Furthermore, even though Christ's blood is sufficient to redeem all things, all things, including a Christian's body, have not yet been redeemed.

The point is that you, as a Christian, are not perfect. You can still think on things that are not wholesome, you just have the power not to act. You are saved through your spirit (where God dwells) but your body and your mind have yet to be redeemed. That won't happen until the rapture of the church, when God will completely redeem us, and when you will cease being able to sin. So God holds you accountable for your actions, and takes direct action and responds if you do sin. As unlike sinners who are still bound and are slaves to sin, Christians are no longer so.

[glo]

OK, so then my question would be this: if God (or a part of Him) is actually living inside of a person, how could that person commit even the smallest, minute sin? The Bible says that God cannot be in the presence of sin, so how can God, Who is Perfect, dwell inside of a creature which is by nature, imperfect?

Greetings, rpwelton

My reply is going to be somewhat different from Fedos, so if it is theologically wrong I hope that somebody will correct me.

According to my own understanding, the reason that God's Spirit can dwell in us imperfect human beings is that Jesus by his sacrifice took upon himself our human failings, our sin and our iniquities - thereby removing the barrier between God and his creation which had been caused by sin.
Because of his sacrifice we no longer have to purify ourselves with cleaning rituals and animal sacrifices, and we no longer have to address God through the medium of priests and rabbis.
We are able to come into the presence of God just as we are, warts and all!

Your question has prompted me to read those wonderful passages in John 14, where Jesus promises the Holy Spirit to his disciples just before his arrest:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."
(John 14: 15-21; 26-27)

The Holy Spirit is a gift from God, which is available to all who believe and accept it!

The Holy Spirit neither dwells in me because I am 'good enough' to deserve him, nor does he make me a 'perfect saintly person with a shining halo' as soon as I accept him ... but if I am willing, he will help me to become a better and more God-oriented person.

But God can only work in me when I am willing to make myself his instrument in this world.
To do that I need to submit myself to his will, and - at this stage I agree with your and Fedos' statement that God cannot be in the same place as sin - choose God's will over my own desires.

The Holy Spirit gives us comfort and guidance, but (as Fedos said) he also convicts us of sin.

All too often I cannot hear God's Spirit stirring inside me, or I hear him but refuse to obey, because I am too full of SELF to do so - selfishness, self-righteousness, self-interest, self-importance ...
Only when I put aside that self-centeredness and submit to God's will, do I allow the Holy Spirit to work inside me. And when I do, the most amazing things can happen. :statisfie

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings, rpwelton

My reply is going to be somewhat different from Fedos, so if it is theologically wrong I hope that somebody will correct me.

According to my own understanding, the reason that God's Spirit can dwell in us imperfect human beings is that Jesus by his sacrifice took upon himself our human failings, our sin and our iniquities - thereby removing the barrier between God and his creation which had been caused by sin.
Because of his sacrifice we no longer have to purify ourselves with cleaning rituals and animal sacrifices, and we no longer have to address God through the medium of priests and rabbis.
We are able to come into the presence of God just as we are, warts and all!

Your question has prompted me to read those wonderful passages in John 14, where Jesus promises the Holy Spirit to his disciples just before his arrest:



The Holy Spirit is a gift from God, which is available to all who believe and accept it!

The Holy Spirit neither dwells in me because I am 'good enough' to deserve him, nor does he make me a 'perfect saintly person with a shining halo' as soon as I accept him ... but if I am willing, he will help me to become a better and more God-oriented person.

But God can only work in me when I am willing to make myself his instrument in this world.
To do that I need to submit myself to his will, and - at this stage I agree with your and Fedos' statement that God cannot be in the same place as sin - choose God's will over my own desires.

The Holy Spirit gives us comfort and guidance, but (as Fedos said) he also convicts us of sin.

All too often I cannot hear God's Spirit stirring inside me, or I hear him but refuse to obey, because I am too full of SELF to do so - selfishness, self-righteousness, self-interest, self-importance ...
Only when I put aside that self-centeredness and submit to God's will, do I allow the Holy Spirit to work inside me. And when I do, the most amazing things can happen. :statisfie

Peace

We sinned 2000 years ago and we still sin today. What barrier was removed? According to your words, some change in humanity occurred with the crucifixion, but people are just as bad as they were before, maybe worse.

[Yanal]

God gives us a choice but before we realize it,the devil comes and we are confused between the right and wrong.

[mkh4JC]

Glo explained your question a bit better than I did, rpwelton. As I have said previously, I am only a baby in Christ, and don't know everything, for varying reasons. As she stated, the reason the Holy Spirit can live inside of a Christian, even in the instances of when they sin, is because Jesus already paid our sin debt, and we have accepted him. Christians are not righteous or holy because of anything that we ourselves do (although you still are supposed to live holy before God and you have power to do so) rather, we have Christ's perfect righteousness.

[AntiKarateKid]

Glo explained your question a bit better than I did, rpwelton. As I have said previously, I am only a baby in Christ, and don't know everything, for varying reasons. As she stated, the reason the Holy Spirit can live inside of a Christian, even in the instances of when they sin, is because Jesus already paid our sin debt, and we have accepted him. Christians are not righteous or holy because of anything that we ourselves do (although you still are supposed to live holy before God and you have power to do so) rather, we have Christ's perfect righteousness.

What does that mean?

We are not righteous because of what we do, but because Jesus pbuh is righteous for us?

If you have Jesus' pbuh righteousness then, why be good yourself? Afterall you are kicking back because you had someone else repent for you.

[mkh4JC]

What does that mean?

We are not righteous because of what we do, but because Jesus pbuh is righteous for us?

If you have Jesus' pbuh righteousness then, why be good yourself? Afterall you are kicking back because you had someone else repent for you.

Well, God demands perfection, because he is perfect. Christ lived a sinless life. When you accept him, you are adopted into the family of God and you receive his righteousness. You're supposed to live holy before God, because he is holy and he wants you to live holy. It's not like you can just accept Christ and start living any kind of lifestyle you want, because you can't (not unless you want to suffer at the hands of an almighty God, or possibly lose your salvation). Becoming Christian is the beginning of your journey towards perfection.

[rpwelton]

What do you say about other religions where people claim to have similar experiences of feeling a "bodily" connection to God, or God's spirit dwelling within them?

[glo]

What barrier was removed? [...]

Greetings, AAK

Did you read my whole post? :?
I am asking because the sentences which immediately follow the sentence you highlighted in red give the answer to your question:

Because of his sacrifice we no longer have to purify ourselves with cleaning rituals and animal sacrifices, and we no longer have to address God through the medium of priests and rabbis.
We are able to come into the presence of God just as we are, warts and all!

According to your words, some change in humanity occurred with the crucifixion

Certainly what occured was a change in the relationship between God and humanity!

We sinned 2000 years ago and we still sin today. [...] but people are just as bad as they were before, maybe worse.

Whether people are worse today is debatable and probably doesn’t belong here.

As for your comments about sin, you are right. Sin has not been removed. Our God-given freedom to make our own choices remains in place.
Sin will not be eradicated until the final day of judgement.

The point is not whether we still sin or not … clearly we do!
The point is that with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us we have access to his comfort, his guidance, his conviction. Whether we use it as much as we should or could is a different matter.

Salaam :)

[Oleander]

Well, God demands perfection, because he is perfect. Christ lived a sinless life. When you accept him, you are adopted into the family of God and you receive his righteousness. You're supposed to live holy before God, because he is holy and he wants you to live holy. It's not like you can just accept Christ and start living any kind of lifestyle you want, because you can't (not unless you want to suffer at the hands of an almighty God, or possibly lose your salvation). Becoming Christian is the beginning of your journey towards perfection.

>>>But your own book tell's you if you accept Jesus and kept on sinning, you are NOT from God, but from the devil, which means you accept the devil, not God.

[glo]

What do you say about other religions where people claim to have similar experiences of feeling a "bodily" connection to God, or God's spirit dwelling within them?

That’s a difficult question to answer …
What religion(s) do you have in mind?

I certainly wouldn’t disregard the possibility (or even likelihood) that God’s Spirit guides non-believers too. (Indeed, how else would non-believers come to faith, if not by the prompting and stirring of the Holy Spirit inside them?)

Generally speaking, however, I would want to scrutinise any such claims. It is all too easy for us to convince ourselves that ‘God is telling us things’ or ‘we have a supernatural experience’

In this instance, I use scripture and Jesus’ words himself as my measuring stick:

1. Jesus himself told his disciples that the Holy Spirit would be sent to them (see my previous post), and that he would dwell inside us.
2. The receiving of the Holy Spirit was experienced by the disciples on the day of Pentecost. It was witnessed by many other people and recorded in the book of Acts.
3. The receiving of the Holy Spirit (in line with scripture and with Jesus’ words) is still experienced now by uncounted Christians all over the world.

Salaam :)

[mkh4JC]

>>>But your own book tell's you if you accept Jesus and kept on sinning, you are NOT from God, but from the devil, which means you accept the devil, not God.

No, I think the scripture you're referring to is the one where Jesus says, 'Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin' (ie not the servant of God) in Saint John. And that's true. If you're still committing trespasses then you aren't serving God.

What do you say about other religions where people claim to have similar experiences of feeling a "bodily" connection to God, or God's spirit dwelling within them?

Well, people who make these kinds of claims do so from the perspective (and this is their belief) that God in dwells within everyone, and that human beings have this unsullied emptiness inside of them where God dwells, that hasn't been corrupted. It is important to note however that the belief that God could indwell within a person did not come into existance until the advent of Christianity, so what they've done is warped aspects of the truth. These are the kinds of people who practice meditation and are entrenched in Eastern style mysticism, and who believe that man is inherently good. The Bible teaches that we are fallen creations, that this world too is fallen (as can be easily perceived by just watching the news), and that we must be regenerated by accepting Christ as our saviors to receive newness of life. Of note this is actually one of the ways the Antichrist is going to succesfully deceive so many people of differing faiths, and rally them to his evil cause, getting them to accept and incorporate Eastern style meditation into their belief system.

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings, AAK

Did you read my whole post? :?
I am asking because the sentences which immediately follow the sentence you highlighted in red give the answer to your question:



Certainly what occured was a change in the relationship between God and humanity!


Whether people are worse today is debatable and probably doesn’t belong here.

As for your comments about sin, you are right. Sin has not been removed. Our God-given freedom to make our own choices remains in place.
Sin will not be eradicated until the final day of judgement.

The point is not whether we still sin or not … clearly we do!
The point is that with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us we have access to his comfort, his guidance, his conviction. Whether we use it as much as we should or could is a different matter.

Salaam :)

Thanks for the response Glo!

Though I was wondering, how come God was close to Abraham, Moses, Solomon and etc, without them having gotten rid of their original sin through Jesus (pbuaot)

I mean if origin sin was such a big killer, wouldn't God have sent Prophets AFTER Jesus because now they were closer to God.

[Oleander]

[QUOTE=Fedos;1099475]No, I think the scripture you're referring to is the one where Jesus says, 'Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin' (ie not the servant of God) in Saint John. And that's true. If you're still committing trespasses then you aren't serving God.



>>>Right, and if you're not serving God, it's fair to say,serving satan?

[mkh4JC]

>>>Right, and if you're not serving God, it's fair to say,serving satan?

Well, this would be true of anyone who is still committing trespasses. The important distinction that can be made in a Christian's life though is that, if they fall into sin, at least they know what it is like to serve and live holy before God, while all the sinner knows is sin.

[glo]

>>>But your own book tell's you if you accept Jesus and kept on sinning, you are NOT from God, but from the devil, which means you accept the devil, not God.

Greetings, Oleander

I didn't know if I would find it and it took me a little while of searching ... but in the end I did.
You are indeed right. In one of his letters John writes this about those who sin:

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
[...]
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

(1 John 3:5-6;9-10)

Quite scathing, eh?

I am not sure who John is addressing, and why he might choose such harsh words.
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other Christians on this.

It seems to me that John's expectations of himself and his fellow humans is quite unrealistic.
The very premise of the Christian faith is that 'we are all sinners and we all fall short of God's glory'. The idea that anybody could obtain God's approval in his own strength alone is unthinkable!
According to the Christians faith nobody (except for Jesus alone) lives a sinful live - not even those we would consider 'saintly', not even the prophets themselves (Just read the OT and find out for yourself how often they stumbled!)

What John seems to be saying reminds me of what I wrote in my earlier post:
"Here we are; Jesus died for us; we have salvation through him; we have the promise of the Holy Spirit living in us, guiding us and comforting us … and yet we don't seem to be able to reach beyond our own human desires to use that wonderful Spirit of God!"

Paul often speaks about the battle between our human nature and God's will for our lives.
Both Christians and Muslims fully understand the concept of the spiritual battle/jihad between sin and God … we live it and fight it daily!

So to comment on your above statement, I would say that when we deny or refuse to obey God's Spirit within us, we are indeed at risk of succumbing to the Enemy.

Just later on in his letter John then goes on to say this :

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."
(1 John 3: 24-25)

That is the promise we have - to continue to love and believe in Jesus, and to have God's Spirit dwell within us!

Peace :)

[mkh4JC]

Greetings, Oleander

I didn't know if I would find it and it took me a little while of searching ... but in the end I did.
You are indeed right. In one of his letters John writes this about those who sin:

Quite scathing, eh?

I am not sure who John is addressing, and why he might choose such harsh words.
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other Christians on this.

It seems to me that John's expectations of himself and his fellow humans is quite unrealistic.

Well, he means exactly what he wrote. It's true that everybody sins, but the sins that a Christian cannot overcome are sins like being lazy, and sins of the mind. When you become Christian, you're not supposed to be committing trespasses.

[Oleander]

Well, this would be true of anyone who is still committing trespasses. The important distinction that can be made in a Christian's life though is that, if they fall into sin, at least they know what it is like to serve and live holy before God, while all the sinner knows is sin.

>>>There no such thing "still committing" in the scripture.

The scripture very clear: If you believe and committed sin, then you are servant of the sin or the devil, simple.

[Oleander]

[QUOTE=glo;1099939]Greetings, Oleander


glo<<<I am not sure who John is addressing, and why he might choose such harsh words.


>>> john was inspire to say so, isn't?


glo<<<It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other Christians on this.

It seems to me that John's expectations of himself and his fellow humans is quite unrealistic.


>>>IOW, you're saying, God was unrealistic?

Do you think God will tell you to do something , you're unable to do?

[mkh4JC]

>>>There no such thing "still committing" in the scripture.

The scripture very clear: If you believe and committed sin, then you are servant of the sin or the devil, simple.

This is what the scripture says:

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.[...]

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother

This simply means that if you accept Christ as your savior that you aren't going to practice or do the things that you were previously doing, while you were in your sins. Yes you are no longer in sin, and you no longer live the way a sinner lives (in all areas of life), but you are not impervious from ever committing another sin. It may seem contradictory but it is not.

So if you are a prostitute, that life is now passed. If you are a homosexual, you won't want to live like that anymore. As I said, it doesn't mean that you are impervious from ever committing another sin, because in Hebrews the writer tells us that God can and does discipline those who DO sin. And quite simply, I could explain the lifestyle of a Christian to you over the net, but you won't truly understand unless you yourself become born again. My parents were Christian, and they've been an example to me, but it wasn't until I myself became Christian that I understood.

[Zamtsa]

Tha Ha (20):110 He knoweth (all) that is before them and (all) that is behind them, while they cannot compass it in knowledge.

An Naml (27):84. Till, when they come (before their Lord at the place of reckoning), He will say: "Did you deny My Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) whereas you comprehended them not by knowledge (of their truth or falsehood), or what (else) was it that you used to do?"


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace, development and safe from guile be upon who follow the guidance)

[NazariteofEhyah]

I dont actually believe that deity dwells within the fleshly matter of the human body. But what does happen it that His Will is at work through an agent, whether it be grace or Holy Spirit.

[glo]

I dont actually believe that deity dwells within the fleshly matter of the human body. But what does happen it that His Will is at work through an agent, whether it be grace or Holy Spirit.

I agree that 'dwelling inside' within the context of this discussion is a figure of speech.
(Having God's Spirit 'living in us' is not like being 'taken over' by another entity, like a body-snatching event ...)

Peace :)

[NazariteofEhyah]

I agree that 'dwelling inside' within the context of this discussion is a figure of speech.
(Having God's Spirit 'living in us' is not like being 'taken over' by another entity, like a body-snatching event ...)

Peace :)

Shalama,

Not only that its one way whereby men attempt to justify thier beliefs as to how Deity influences the world in a way that it attains to His Will. We dont become mere pawns, but we do our part in performing the Will of one who calls us.

[alcurad]

Certainly what occured was a change in the relationship between God and humanity!


Whether people are worse today is debatable and probably doesn’t belong here.

As for your comments about sin, you are right. Sin has not been removed. Our God-given freedom to make our own choices remains in place.
Sin will not be eradicated until the final day of judgement.

The point is not whether we still sin or not … clearly we do!
The point is that with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us we have access to his comfort, his guidance, his conviction. Whether we use it as much as we should or could is a different matter.

Salaam :)

so again, the relationship changed, sins have not been removed, rather it's the access to guidance, and atleast the prophets in the OT had the spirit in them, thus that access, doesn't that make the sacrifice of Jesus unnecessary then?
Abraham and Moses don't seem to have needed Jesus to have the spirit dwell within them, regardless of their sins. what happens to all the humans before the relationship changed btw, were they all denied by god?

[NazariteofEhyah]

so again, the relationship changed, sins have not been removed, rather it's the access to guidance, and atleast the prophets in the OT had the spirit in them, thus that access, doesn't that make the sacrifice of Jesus unnecessary then?
Abraham and Moses don't seem to have needed Jesus to have the spirit dwell within them, regardless of their sins. what happens to all the humans before the relationship changed btw, were they all denied by god?

Shalama,

Your've made a good point concerning the Prophets in the Torah. More emphasis is placed on the Spirit rather then the sin. For the Prophets of God are sanctified meaning that their sins are padoned by the Spirit. None the less it does not mean that Prophets are perfect, for no one is perfect to God. But if the Will of God is performed within a Prophet, it would be difficult to think that a Prophet could sin unless God Wills it. Elijah didn't join the pagan prophets in calling on their gods!

Unlike the chosen prophets, humanity isn't sanctified by the Spirit or His Will. So, we the gentiles need the instruction of the Prophets to calls us to Him and to perform His Will on earth, as commanded.

[glo]

what happens to all the humans before the relationship changed btw, were they all denied by god?

Those born without the knowledge of Jesus or prior to his coming will be judged according to the knowledge they had been given.

I am sure that God knows best and will judge us all justly and graciously.

Peace :)

[NazariteofEhyah]

Those born without the knowledge of Jesus or prior to his coming will be judged according to the knowledge they had been given.

I am sure that God knows best and will judge us all justly and graciously.

Peace :)

Are you saying that Jesus judgement will be based on their own relevation, or teaching? Of would His Judgement be of that God's Will? (That is free of any religious attachment)

[Indigåtor]

And quite simply, I could explain the lifestyle of a Christian to you over the net, but you won't truly understand unless you yourself become born again. My parents were Christian, and they've been an example to me, but it wasn't until I myself became Christian that I understood.

Fedos,

It is most interesting how Christians teach others that they will 'not understand' Christianity or the beliefs thereof, until they are 'born again' or converted. If an individual does not understand the most significant matters pertaining to the Christian faith then how else are they to embrace it, other than by blind faith?

I think this explanation is flawed and that it is quite easy for non-Christians to come to understand Christianity to the fullest - except for not 'feeling' it; they will lack that spiritual sensation within that 'enlightens' one's understanding of their faith and god.

[mkh4JC]

Fedos,

It is most interesting how Christians teach others that they will 'not understand' Christianity or the beliefs thereof, until they are 'born again' or converted. If an individual does not understand the most significant matters pertaining to the Christian faith then how else are they to embrace it, other than by blind faith?

I think this explanation is flawed and that it is quite easy for non-Christians to come to understand Christianity to the fullest - except for not 'feeling' it; they will lack that spiritual sensation within that 'enlightens' one's understanding of their faith and god.

Well, I have explained the Christian lifestyle, in earlier posts in this thread even.
And other things relating to Christianity. Multiple times I've explained it. But just because I explain something that doesn't mean that you'll understand it. Here's what the scripture says:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given unto us.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.' I Corinthians 2: 12-14.

You have to be born of God to understand the things of God. If you are still in your sins then it will seem like foolishness.

[mkh4JC]

so again, the relationship changed, sins have not been removed, rather it's the access to guidance, and atleast the prophets in the OT had the spirit in them, thus that access, doesn't that make the sacrifice of Jesus unnecessary then?
Abraham and Moses don't seem to have needed Jesus to have the spirit dwell within them, regardless of their sins. what happens to all the humans before the relationship changed btw, were they all denied by god?

The Old Testament saints did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, because Christ hadn't died yet, and sin debt was not paid. The parallel between the Old Testament and the New, is seen with the Levitical priesthood carrying God's presence on their shoulders in the Ark of the Covenant.

[NazariteofEhyah]

You said: You have to be born of God to understand the things of God. If you are still in your sins then it will seem like foolishness.


I say: I agree, no one can actually understand God and the Scriptures without being 'born' of His Will. I wounldn't define as a physical birth because I view it is a spiritual birth of the new man who is the one who has become spiritually discerning.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Fedos,

It is most interesting how Christians teach others that they will 'not understand' Christianity or the beliefs thereof, until they are 'born again' or converted. If an individual does not understand the most significant matters pertaining to the Christian faith then how else are they to embrace it, other than by blind faith?

I think this explanation is flawed and that it is quite easy for non-Christians to come to understand Christianity to the fullest - except for not 'feeling' it; they will lack that spiritual sensation within that 'enlightens' one's understanding of their faith and god.

Isn't blind faith based on the face value of the assurance that the faith is the one to believe?

[Indigåtor]

Well, I have explained the Christian lifestyle, in earlier posts in this thread even.
And other things relating to Christianity. Multiple times I've explained it. But just because I explain something that doesn't mean that you'll understand it. Here's what the scripture says:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given unto us.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.' I Corinthians 2: 12-14.

You have to be born of God to understand the things of God. If you are still in your sins then it will seem like foolishness.

I think most religions teach that anyone without the "spirit" of God [if the Spirit, as previously asserted, isn't a spirit that literally dwells in human flesh] within them are bereft of knowledge.

I reckon it makes sense to you that pious and righteous Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc are people who are still 'in their sins'? The most faithful religious scholars and devotees from over the world who pray, worship and commit to a good lifestyle are still in sin? The only sin left in this context is the sin of not embracing Christ in the Christian sense, which brings me back to my original point.

It's sort of difficult to imagine a saintly person the likes of, say the Dalai Lama, doesn't comprehend things due to his sins. The fella' is morally clean and neither does he worship idols. Regardless, he may study the Bible and intellectually reject it.

[Indigåtor]

Isn't blind faith based on the face value of the assurance that the faith is the one to believe?

That face value of assurance varies from person to person and religion to religion. It still remains blind faith - following a set of beliefs without actual evidence to support them. It does not at all matter how powerful your personal certainty may be when the fact remains that you have no actual knowledge of what you believe in.

Both the Bible [OT] and the Qur'an call for the use of reason. Yet, Christians sometimes resort to the fallacious no Holy Spirit = no understanding argument and flee at the mention of the word 'reason'.

Isaiah 1:18 reads: "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord."

Sadly, when a question cannot be answered we -- the most sinless of us -- are told that we shall come to understand once we open up ourselves to receive the spirit.

[NazariteofEhyah]

That face value of assurance varies from person to person and religion to religion. It still remains blind faith - following a set of beliefs without actual evidence to support them. It does not at all matter how powerful your personal certainty may be when the fact remains that you have no actual knowledge of what you believe in.

Both the Bible [OT] and the Qur'an call for the use of reason. Yet, Christians sometimes resort to the fallacious no Holy Spirit = no understanding argument and flee at the mention of the word 'reason'.

Isaiah 1:18 reads: "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord."

Sadly, when a question cannot be answered we -- the most sinless of us -- are told that we shall come to understand once we open up ourselves to receive the spirit.

I understand. I'll have to be dependent on blind faith and reason. But I won't be reasoned away from what people call the LORD.

[mkh4JC]

I think most religions teach that anyone without the "spirit" of God [if the Spirit, as previously asserted, isn't a spirit that literally dwells in human flesh] within them are bereft of knowledge.

Man is composed of spirit, soul, and body. The soul is the mind, will and the emotions. The body needs no explanation. When you become Christian, God in dwells within your inmost man (your spirit) which is also in your body. It is the spirit through which God created so that we might have fellowship with him. We are all born into this world spiritually dead, in enmity towards God, with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, you become spiritually alive (and this is in fact the only way that you can become spiritually alive) and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it.

I reckon it makes sense to you that pious and righteous Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc are people who are still 'in their sins'? The most faithful religious scholars and devotees from over the world who pray, worship and commit to a good lifestyle are still in sin? The only sin left in this context is the sin of not embracing Christ in the Christian sense, which brings me back to my original point.

Yes, this is how it is. Religion is man's attempt to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh. This is a fallen world, and we are all born fallen creatures. The Bible says that without Christ our 'good works' before God are like filthy rags. Simply put, you cannot live the Christian life apart from Christ.

Good works are only those things which God has commanded, just as sin is that which God has forbidden.

Have you perfectly obeyed all that God has commanded?
Have you ever lied? Have you ever lusted in your heart or desired what God has forbidden?

Have you ever put anything above and before God?
If so, then what you call a good work is nothing more than an imperfect work that a perfect and holy God will never accept. No person, except Christ, can keep God’s commandments perfectly; and therefore, all our good works fall short of what God requires. (Rom.3:23)

It's sort of difficult to imagine a saintly person the likes of, say the Dalai Lama, doesn't comprehend things due to his sins. The fella' is morally clean and neither does he worship idols. Regardless, he may study the Bible and intellectually reject it.

Well, I haven't done any extensive research on Buddhism. But I don't have to know the Dali Lama to know that if he hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as his savior that he is still in his sins.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Man is composed of spirit, soul, and body. The soul is the mind, will and the emotions. The body needs no explanation. When you become Christian, God in dwells within your inmost man (your spirit) which is also in your body. It is the spirit through which God created so that we might have fellowship with him. We are all born into this world spiritually dead, in enmity towards God, with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, you become spiritually alive (and this is in fact the only way that you can become spiritually alive) and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it.

Muslim's as they naturally will say, men are slaves to Allah. But how can men be both slaves to both sin and Allah?


Yes, this is how it is. Religion is man's attempt to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh. This is a fallen world, and we are all born fallen creatures. The Bible says that without Christ our 'good works' before God are like filthy rags. Simply put, you cannot live the Christian life apart from Christ.


We should see our work's a filthy. Why because they are washed in muddy water and are consequently unfit for the LORD.

[Oleander]

DarkGreen"]Muslim's as they naturally will say, men are slaves to Allah. But how can men be both slaves to both sin and Allah?


>>>well, let's see what your book say:


“God raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26), Matt. 12:8 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.

________________________________________
John 13:16 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus” (Acts 3:13).


Muslim very proud to be servant of God as Jesus was.

darkgreen"]We should see our work's a filthy. Why because they are washed


in muddy water and are consequently unfit for the LORD



>>>Said who? Where is the LORD or Jesus said such thing?

You been told your good work is filth before the Lord, But the Lord said otherwise:

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

[mkh4JC]

Muslim's as they naturally will say, men are slaves to Allah. But how can men be both slaves to both sin and Allah?

Well, you can't be a servant of God while you remain in your sins. You will be a servant of sin and the lusts of your flesh. You have to be born again, born of the Spirit of God, set apart from those in the world in order to be a servant of God.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Well, you can't be a servant of God while you remain in your sins. You will be a servant of sin and the lusts of your flesh. You have to be born again, born of the Spirit of God, set apart from those in the world in order to be a servant of God.

Don't I know that already?

[mkh4JC]

Don't I know that already?

Well, that is an exclusive characteristic of the true Christian.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Well, that is an exclusive characteristic of the true Christian.

There's a 'true Christian'?

[mkh4JC]

There's a 'true Christian'?

Yes, there's a church within a church. Not everyone that confesses Jesus to be their savior is really Christs. Here's what Jesus said:

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' Matthew 7: 21-23.

Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid, he will tell them that he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils. It all comes back to whether or not you are living a life that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, a life that he enabled you to live because you came to him.

[Zamtsa]

Allahu Ta'ala is (ever) near with His hearing, seeing, and knowledge(unseen and tangible) and His hearing, seeing and knowledge are everywhere. His creation is everywhere and His Malaikat are (ever) near to every human beings.

Al Qur'an(Kalamullah) has stated that Allahu Jalla Jalaaluhu:


Thaha(20):5 (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne .


His creation is everywhere:

6 To Him belongs what is in the heavens and on earth and all between them and all beneath the soil.


His hearing and knowledge are everywhere:

Tha Ha(20):7 If thou pronounce the word aloud (it is no matter): for verily He knoweth what is secret and what is yet more hidden.


He has more than 99 beautiful names.
8 Allah! there is no god but He! To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names.


He will not only give safety and salvation on the earth, but will also give the eternal reward in the Paradise. And His seeing is everywhere:


An Nisa(4):134 Whoso desireth the reward of the world, (let him know that) with Allah is the reward of the world and the Hereafter. Allah is ever Hearer, Seer.


And His angels are everywhere to note what every people doing.

Qaf (50):16 It was We who created man and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular
17 When two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and note them) one sitting on the right and one on the left.
18 Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him ready (to note it).

Allah's reward is near. Allahu Ta'ala create everything below Himself.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Yes, there's a church within a church. Not everyone that confesses Jesus to be their savior is really Christs. Here's what Jesus said:

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' Matthew 7: 21-23.

Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid, he will tell them that he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils. It all comes back to whether or not you are living a life that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, a life that he enabled you to live because we came to him.

Shalama my good Christian companion,

That's why I never pay those people attention. LORD is all that matters.

Respect from your Nazarite companion.

[Indigåtor]

I understand. I'll have to be dependent on blind faith and reason. But I won't be reasoned away from what people call the LORD.

Blind faith equals lack of reason and vise versa. You cannot interconnect the two because they are mutually exclusive.

[Indigåtor]

Man is composed of spirit, soul, and body. The soul is the mind, will and the emotions. The body needs no explanation. When you become Christian, God in dwells within your inmost man (your spirit) which is also in your body. It is the spirit through which God created so that we might have fellowship with him.

So you believe that He literally "dwells" inside the "inmost" part of man? If the inmost part of me isn't material or a thing beyond time and space, that I can possibly accept, but if my spirit is temporal and inherent to my physical body then I'd rather stay away from your modified form of pantheism.

We are all born into this world spiritually dead, in enmity towards God, with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, you become spiritually alive (and this is in fact the only way that you can become spiritually alive) and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it.

I don't necessarily concur with that first sentence. Islam, for instance, propose the concept of a fitra. The fitra is the human being's natural predisposition of doing what is right, instead of wrong. Unlike the beasts of nature, Muslims also believe that man is born with an inclination to believe in a higher power, and sinless until he matures and begins to act wrongly. I prefer the latter doctrine simply because it makes more sense and is supported by testable evidence [partly from evolution theory]. I however accept neither as unfalsifiable.

Yes, this is how it is. Religion is man's attempt to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh. This is a fallen world, and we are all born fallen creatures. The Bible says that without Christ our 'good works' before God are like filthy rags. Simply put, you cannot live the Christian life apart from Christ.

Therefore I was correct. Your 'sin' needn't be a wrong deed or bad lifestyle, but your true sin is your lack or rejection of the Christian Christ. I am now led straight back to my starting point: If a person is morally sound and free of major sin -- save the sin of disbelief -- then how is he to acquire that special Christian understanding of all things without having any evidence? If you suppose that a person must convert before 'understanding', then on what basis must he convert? As Isaiah 1:18 says, you must use reason to prove yourself. It is not only absurd, but contradictory to the Bible itself to claim that wisdom and knowledge will come after blind conversion.

Well, I haven't done any extensive research on Buddhism. But I don't have to know the Dali Lama to know that if he hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as his savior that he is still in his sins.

You openly believe that not a single non-Christian on earth has, is, or ever will be as righteous as a Christian! Feel free to include Christ's predecessors in your doctrine - Moses, Abraham et al; these early prophets never accepted Christ as their God and redeemer. I imagine according to your way of thinking these intimate friends of God never lived half the true spiritual life of an ordinary lay Christian. Of a surety, they never received any spirit, yet they were the 'beloved' of God and were granted forgiveness.

Interesting, no?

[NazariteofEhyah]

Blind faith equals lack of reason and vise versa. You cannot interconnect the two because they are mutually exclusive.

You had to see on it's face value. When it doubt revert to blind faith by default. Seriously, if we are no faith and all reason we would begin to reason God away. Because reason, when overused leads to atheistic views. Faith however is dependent on the Scriptures. We associate reason to Athiesm and too much of it leads to everything being subjected to man's reason, which in essence replaces love of Deity (Devotional quality) with love of man (Atheistic quality). Hopefully I have explained my views a little better. Greek philosophers were critics of their own gods! It becomes a matter of faith, free will and reason applied.

[mkh4JC]

So you believe that He literally "dwells" inside the "inmost" part of man? If the inmost part of me isn't material or a thing beyond time and space, that I can possibly accept, but if my spirit is temporal and inherent to my physical body then I'd rather stay away from your modified form of pantheism.

Yes, this is true. Our spirits are not material.

I don't necessarily concur with that first sentence. Islam, for instance, propose the concept of a fitra. The fitra is the human being's natural predisposition of doing what is right, instead of wrong. Unlike the beasts of nature, Muslims also believe that man is born with an inclination to believe in a higher power, and sinless until he matures and begins to act wrongly.

It doesn't take much to understand the concept that we are altogether born in sin and in natural enmity towards God. God is completely holy and there is no darkness in him. He will not tolerate a sinner in his presence because of this reason. God is truth. Consider the fact that a young child does not have to be taught how to tell a lie. Or to steal. Or to disobey their parents.

If human beings were born with a natural disposition to do what is right then this world would not be the way it is. There'd be no such things as murder, war, theft, weapons of mass destruction, genocide, hatred, abortion, greed, and sexual impurity.

Therefore I was correct. Your 'sin' needn't be a wrong deed or bad lifestyle, but your true sin is your lack or rejection of the Christian Christ.

You are correct in a sense that unbelif is sin. But the fact of the matter is, no matter which faith you choose if you are not Christian then you are still committing trespasses before a holy God.

'Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whomsoever committeth sin is the servant of sin (ie not the servant of God).

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.' John 8: 34-36. This is talking about freedom from sin, no matter what your background is.

'Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.' II Corinthians 5: 17. This is not just referencing your mindset, but your lifestyle, you completely throwing off the sinful man and putting on the righteousness of God. It also references the new birth.

Here's two more verses:

'What shall we say then? Shall we contine in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' Romans 6: 1-2.

Or here:

'All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.' 1 John 5: 17-20.

The Bible says that Jesus died to take away the sins of the world, and it means exactly that. You can't live this way apart from Christ, it doesn't matter which faith you choose. As I said, religion is man's attempt to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh. You need the Spirit of God living inside of you, so you can be free from all unrighteousness.

I am now led straight back to my starting point: If a person is morally sound and free of major sin -- save the sin of disbelief -- then how is he to acquire that special Christian understanding of all things without having any evidence? If you suppose that a person must convert before 'understanding', then on what basis must he convert? As Isaiah 1:18 says, you must use reason to prove yourself. It is not only absurd, but contradictory to the Bible itself to claim that wisdom and knowledge will come after blind conversion.

Well, I perhaps misrepresented that passage. If someone who is Christian is witnessing to you, you can understand certain aspects of the faith, just not all. You'd have to understand in any case to convert in the first place. But still, most people who are not Christian would consider something like the cruxificion barbaric. Or the teaching of the rapture. They'd consider it nonsense for instance. This is primarily what the passage I quoted was referencing.

You openly believe that not a single non-Christian on earth has, is, or ever will be as righteous as a Christian!

Well that is true, you can't live the Christian life apart from Christ.

Feel free to include Christ's predecessors in your doctrine - Moses, Abraham et al; these early prophets never accepted Christ as their God and redeemer. I imagine according to your way of thinking these intimate friends of God never lived half the true spiritual life of an ordinary lay Christian. Of a surety, they never received any spirit, yet they were the 'beloved' of God and were granted forgiveness.

Interesting, no?

Yes, Moses, Abraham and all the forefathers of the faith couldn't live like a Christian. They also, when they died, were in what scripture calls paradise in the center of the Earth, because Christ hadn't died yet. For reference, recall the parable of the rich man and the begger Lazarus. How that upon their deaths Lazarus was comforted in Abraham's bosom, while the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell, and how that there was a great gulf separating them.
Now, when Christ was risen, he delivered those who were in the center of the Earth who were the Lord's people out of the Earth to be with God in the third heaven. The point is, we can't be in the presence of a holy God without Christ's redeeming work on the cross.

[alcurad]

^why not? Christ is only human in the end. The trinity is mostly derived from cherry picking verses, I don't believe we need a human sacrifice for God, all knowing ,all merciful god to be able to forgive us, being the one who made us as capable of sin to begin with..

you're implying a god that is so far removed from understanding his creation, living in his own purity unawares of all else, that he is incapable of forgiving his own creation for a few millenniums until he sends a 'son' and then 'kills' him and that makes him capable of forgiving?

Christianity has parts of original truth, on the other hand why this rejection of life? the flesh is the flesh, as holy as the spirit within, both being made from God's hands.
without the flesh, there would be no human, humans are made by god just as the rest of creation, given a certain nature by God, why can't God forgive as we are if we repent?
at that the only repentance is that one should kill oneself, then it's all pure sinless spirit,,

[mkh4JC]

^why not? [B]Christ is only human in the end. T he trinity is mostly derived from cherry picking verses. I don't believe we need a human sacrifice for God, all knowing ,all merciful god to be able to forgive us, being the one who made us as capable of sin to begin with..

No, I don't think Psalms 110: 1 'The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool,' is cherry picking a verse. It means exactly what it says. And Isaiah 53 backs up that the Jesus of the New Testament is who he says he is. The thing is, the Old Testament stands up to scrutiny with the New.

you're implying a god that is so far removed from understanding his creation, living in his own purity unwares of all else that he is incapable of understanding his own creation..

No, he does understand us, but there is no darkness in God, and as I said, he will not tolerate a sinner in his presence. It stands to reason that God being holy would want those who follow him to be holy as well. So he sent Christ into the world to be a remedy for sin. Christ is the bridge between sinful man and holy God.

[NazariteofEhyah]

why not? Christ is only human in the end. The trinity is mostly derived from cherry picking verses, I don't believe we need a human sacrifice for God, all knowing ,all merciful god to be able to forgive us, being the one who made us as capable of sin to begin with.

Amen, preach to the choir! The Trinity purly is a philosophical invention, not a literal truth. Further to your disbelief in their claims, I cannot see how God can be manisfested in whole, in human flesh, and not only that but be imitated by men, and beaten by men.

you're implying a god that is so far removed from understanding his creation, living in his own purity unawares of all else, that he is incapable of forgiving his own creation for a few millenniums until he sends a 'son' and then 'kills' him and that makes him capable of forgiving??

I see your point. Doe's the warnings of the Old Testament mean nothing? Surely there must be references from the Old Testatment, showing a way for the sinners.

Christianity has parts of original truth, but the rest..
why this rejection of life? the flesh is the flesh, as holy as the spirit within, both being made from God's hands.
without the flesh, there would be no human, humans are made by god just as the rest of creation, given a certain nature by God, why can't God forgive as we are if we repent?

Flesh is matter, like the tangible firmament that we know. I see since flesh is matter our bodies are on par with rocks, leafs and animals. What separates us from the rest of creation is that nature you speak of. Maybe some see forgiveness work's differently, and so ask for proof of Biblical correctness.

[alcurad]

but the verse doesn't imply Christ is part of god. It implies Christ's great standing.
how does it stand to reason that God being holy would not accept us as he made us? is it part of holiness not to accept repentance?
otherwise the only need for Christ is to be killed for God to forgive us since then we are as holy as he is?
then how, since we are holy, are there people who sin?
they haven't accepted Christ's sacrifice yet, well then we're back to square one, no sins forgiven regardless of his sacrifice.
I don't mean to insult, yet I truly don't get how is it that God needs such elaborate workings simply to accept our repentance, being the one who made us not completely holy, God does not fall into dilemmas, he does nothing in jest or play, he is God, the forgiver, the merciful and the all powerful.

[mkh4JC]

but the verse doesn't imply Christ is part of god.

The verse says, 'The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son), sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' How can David call someone his Lord if he is not talking about God? Wouldn't that be blasphemy?

how does it stand to reason that god being holy would not accept us as he made us?

He does accept you as you are. We are often taught in the Christian faith to witness to people that they can come to Christ exactly as they are. Whether they be murderers, rapists, homosexuals, lesbians, thieves, etc, etc. The thing is, when you come to him, he changes you. So you don't have to live a life a slave to sin anymore.

so the only need for Christ is to be killed for God to forgive us since then we are as holy as he is?
then how, since we are holy, are there people who sin?

Well, Christ came into the world to save sinners from their sins. That was his purpose. The most perfect life you can live on this side of existance is as a Christian. And not everyone who calls themselves a Christian are really Christ's. Refer to the scripture I quoted at the top of the page for instance. There are many people who go to church on Sunday and live like hell Monday through Saturday.

[NazariteofEhyah]

but the verse doesn't imply Christ is part of god. It implies Christ's great standing.
how does it stand to reason that God being holy would not accept us as he made us? is it part of holiness not to accept repentance?
otherwise the only need for Christ is to be killed for God to forgive us since then we are as holy as he is?
then how, since we are holy, are there people who sin?
they haven't accepted Christ's sacrifice yet, well then we're back to square one, no sins forgiven regardless of his sacrifice.
I don't mean to insult, yet I truly don't get how is it that God needs such elaborate workings simply to accept our repentance, being the one who made us not completely holy, God does not fall into dilemmas, he does nothing in jest or play, he is God, the forgiver, the merciful and the all powerful.

Amen, Jesus of great standing!

In my signature you'll find an appropriate reference to holiness. Read the whole chapter for a better picture. We can only be holy if we keep to what the LORD decrees. There's isnt much sence in making this claim, unless you know that the OT said on the matter. But following the decrees and because of man's fallen nature it is extremely hard to just follow one, and it take's divine inpiration to keep to them. Ask God, for the answer. It wont come from men.

[alcurad]

The verse says, 'The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son), sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' How can David call someone his Lord if he is not talking about God? Wouldn't that be blasphemy?

(The Lord, is different from my lord, the first is begun with The, which implies the only, the second is a term of respect, not equal to the first.)


He does accept you as you are. We are often taught in the Christian faith to witness to people that they can come to Christ exactly as they are. Whether they be murderers, rapists, homosexuals, lesbians, thieves, etc, etc. The thing is, when you come to him, he changes you. So you don't have to live a life a slave to sin anymore.

(I understand that, and since he does accept us, there is no need for sacrifice, he can do it without sacrifice, no?)


Well, Christ came into the world to save sinners from their sins. That was his purpose. The most perfect life you can live on this side of existance is as a Christian. And not everyone who calls themselves a Christian are really Christ's. Refer to the scripture I quoted at the top of the page for instance. There are many people who go to church on Sunday and live like hell Monday through Saturday.

and that brings forth the question, what did Christ accomplish then? we are still sinning, even those Christians who have accepted him will no doubt have the possibility of sinning, it's not that ability had been removed.

The whole point of the trinity is to support the idea of Christ's divinity, the whole point of the crucifixion is for God to be able to forgive us by sacrificing Christ, I don't see how that stands to reason, if we accept God to be actually God, or if it has much proof from scripture. Christ making one new, holy is contradicted by their ability to sin, which makes his sacrifice not worth that much to begin with, forgiveness is in God's hands, and continues to be, what did Christ add to that if those who accept him are still capable of sin?

doesn't that then contradict the verses which speak of the son making one free, free from what if you can still go back, or the verse that speaks of those born of God not sinning, is accepting Christ then not being born of God?

[mkh4JC]

and that brings forth the question, what did Christ accomplish then? we are still sinning, [B]even those Christians who have accepted him will no doubt have the possibility of sinning, it's not that ability had been removed.

The whole point of the trinity is to support the idea of Christ's divinity, the whole point of the crucifixion is for God to be able to forgive us by sacrificing Christ, I don't see how that stands to reason, if we accept God to be actually God, or if it has much proof from scripture. Christ making one new, holy is contradicted by their ability to sin, which makes his sacrifice not worth that much to begin with, forgiveness is in God's hands, and continues to be, what did Christ add to that if those who accept him are still capable of sin?

doesn't that then contradict the verses which speak of the son making one free, free from what if you can still go back, or the verse that speaks of those born of God not sinning, is accepting Christ then not being born of God?

No, the possibility has not been removed. And even in Hebrews the author tells us that those Christians who do sin will be disciplined by an almighty God. The point is though, is that you don't have to sin. You are no longer bound by sin the way that a sinner is (in all areas of life). When you become Christian God saves you through your spirit (where he dwells). Your mind and your body have yet to be redeemed. That won't happen until the rapture of the church, when God will completely redeem us. You can still think on things that are not wholesome, you just have the power not to act.

[AntiKarateKid]

No, the possibility has not been removed. And even in Hebrews the author tells us that those Christians who do sin will be disciplined by an almighty God. The point is though, is that you don't have to sin. You are no longer bound by sin the way that a sinner is (in all areas of life). When you become Christian God saves you through your spirit (where he dwells). Your mind and your body have yet to be redeemed. That won't happen until the rapture of the church, when God will completely redeem us. You can still think on things that are not wholesome, you just have the power not to act.

So the only point of the crucifixion is, not that it makes us sin less, or that it makes us do better deeds, just that our omnipotent God couldn't forgive sins without first sacrificing himself?

[mkh4JC]

So the only point of the crucifixion is, not that it makes us sin less, or that it makes us do better deeds, just that our omnipotent God couldn't forgive sins without first sacrificing himself?

I don't think I implied that from what you quoted. If you are still in your sins, then you are a slave to sin (meaning, you can't help yourself, you're going to sin). If you are a Christian, then you are a slave to righteousness. And it has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it has to be paid. We have to either accept what God has provided for us (in terms of payment) or we have to pay it ourselves.

'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23

[AntiKarateKid]

I don't think I implied that from what you quoted. If you are still in your sins, then you are a slave to sin (meaning, you can't help yourself, you're going to sin). If you are a Christian, then you are a slave to righteousness. And it has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it has to be paid. We have to either accept what God has provided for us (in terms of payment) or we have to pay it ourselves.

'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?

[rpwelton]

No, the possibility has not been removed. And even in Hebrews the author tells us that those Christians who do sin will be disciplined by an almighty God. The point is though, is that you don't have to sin. You are no longer bound by sin the way that a sinner is (in all areas of life). When you become Christian God saves you through your spirit (where he dwells). Your mind and your body have yet to be redeemed. That won't happen until the rapture of the church, when God will completely redeem us. You can still think on things that are not wholesome, you just have the power not to act.

I've been away from this thread for quite some time, due to long hours at work and getting sucked into another thread.

It seems to me that if a "sinner" (ie, non-Christian) does not have the power to resist sin, but the Christian has that power, that when the Christian sins, it is much worse than the "sinner". That is, you had the ability to stop it, but you didn't, while the sinner had no ability to stop it. Am I getting this right?

To me, it just seems like Christians live in this perfect theoretical world when it comes to sin.

Why can't we be responsible for our own actions? It doesn't make sense that God would create all of us, and then offer a free way out to those who wanted it.

[Oleander]

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?



>>>You never going to get staight answer.

Christians every day they remind them self and others how they are sinners, and worth nothing.

If all the world sinners, including Christians, so what is the advanage Christians accomplished after God or his son die?

They tell you we are all sinners.


If Christian does something wrong (gay, hitler..) .

They tell you these people are not good Christians!

You ask, Who is the good christians?

They tell you, the ones who fellow Christ.

You ask, do you fellow Christ?

If all of you sinners, then NONE of you fellow Christ, right?

[AntiKarateKid]

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?



>>>You never going to get staight answer.

Christians every day they remind them self and others how they are sinners, and worth nothing.

If all the world sinners, including Christians, so what is the advanage Christians accomplished after God or his son die?

They tell you we are all sinners.


If Christian does something wrong (gay, hitler..) .

They tell you these people are not good Christians!

You ask, Who is the good christians?

They tell you, the ones who fellow Christ.

You ask, do you fellow Christ?

If all of you sinners, then NONE of you fellow Christ, right?

I'm sorry but your post didnt quite help me understand. So you admit that the crucifixion taking away your original sin, in no way makes you a better person than the good Jew or Muslim.


I'm not surprised that Christians would say that they are all sinners because Muslims, Jews, Hindus and etc will all say the same thing.



It seems as if all the crucifixion did for humanity is that it gave God a way to forgive our sins by sacrificing himself....which is a strange concept to apply to an omnipotent God.

[mkh4JC]

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?

The only sins that a Christian cannot overcome are sins like being lazy, and sins of the mind, which you can't stop. A Christian has no business commiting sin (ie sinning with action).

[AntiKarateKid]

The only sins that a Christian cannot overcome are sins like being lazy, and sins of the mind, which you can't stop. A Christian has no business commiting sin (ie sinning with action).

Neither does a Muslim or Jew... So again, the crucifixion did nothing but allow an omnipotent God the ability to forgive original sin by sacrificing himself.

[mkh4JC]

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?

Neither does a Muslim or Jew... So again, the crucifixion did nothing but allow an omnipotent God the ability to forgive original sin by sacrificing himself.

I think you misunderstand. Christianity is about perfection. When I say a Christian has no business committing trespasses before a holy God, I mean to say that we have power to live out a holy, sin free life.

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
[...]
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:5-6;9-10

There is no other faith on Earth where people like homosexuals and lesbians can come to Christ and receive newness of life. That is why God takes direct action and disciplines those Christians who do sin, as they have no excuse, unlike the world.

[AntiKarateKid]

I think you misunderstand. Christianity is about perfection. When I say a Christian has no business committing trespasses before a holy God, I mean to say that we have power to live out a holy, sin free life.

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
[...]
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:5-6;9-10

There is no other faith on Earth where people like homosexuals and lesbians can come to Christ and receive newness of life. That is why God takes direct action and disciplines those Christians who do sin, as they have no excuse, unlike the world.

You still have not answered my question. You threw a bunch of flowery verses at me. Tell me man, if you said that once your original sin has been taken away through Jesus pbuh, you don't necessarily start sinning less and doing more good deeds, then what was the point of taking them away? Why did God have to sacrifice himself just to give himself the ability to forgive original sin.

[mkh4JC]

You still have not answered my question. You threw a bunch of flowery verses at me. Tell me man, if you said that once your original sin has been taken away through Jesus pbuh, you don't necessarily start sinning less and doing more good deeds, then what was the point of taking them away? Why did God have to sacrifice himself just to give himself the ability to forgive original sin.

I have answered your question. When you become Christian, you are a slave to righteousness. You have the power (and I stress this) to live holy before God (in all areas of life), no matter what kind of past you may have. You aren't supposed to sin AT ALL, because God has given you power to live holy before him. You are dead to sin as a Christian (ie all sin). That's the Christian life. I've quoted supporting scriptures and I've described the lifestyle, I don't know how much more plainer I can make it.

You do good deeds (like giving to ministries who give to the poor) because God puts it on your heart to do good deeds, not to work your way into heaven.

[Indigåtor]

Fedos,

What cave are you living in that you cannot see anything outside of it? I want to bring you of there!

Everything which Fedos claims is exactly the same as in Islam or Judaism, minus the Jesus part - devoted Muslims and Jews live sinlessly and rejoice in the presence of God. Neither are they rapists, murderers, homosexuals, thieves, adulterers etc,. Equally, they feel no spiritual insecurity.

The salvation tale is the same but Christianity adds spice to it with a deified Christ. I bet most of them do not even repent for their sins because they are so convinced that they are saved, and that sense of being redeemed opens the door to all sin... regardless of what the scripture teaches. The people of old despaired of the mercy of their gods and found it difficult to worship a deity they couldn't see. All this changed when Yeheshuwa was deified as God; now the believers could see their god with the naked eye and they could breathe easier for their sins have been forgiven.

The greatest question Christianity must answer is that, if God is omnipotent [all powerful] and omniscient [all knowing], then why did He decide to decree sin as unpardonable without Him incarnating into a human being and suffering 'death'? But people of better reason see that an almighty god possesses the ability to forgive those who surrender to His will and live in accordance to His commandments. They live 'in God' as Christians live 'in Christ' and lead the most righteous life.

Another problem must addressed. Jesus had an anatomy, yet thought to be God incarnate. It was the body; the flesh and blood that was 'sacrificed', but did not God create Christ's anatomy? Surely He must have! He created the flesh, the blood, the bones, and the brain. Is it then rational to deduce that our bodies are to be atoned by... created flesh [i.e Christ's anatomy]? He who was crucified and killed was created - every drop of blood of Jesus was brought into being from nothing by God. Yet, a mere creation atones the universe. :)

I'm not suggesting Jesus as God the Son is not uncreated, I'm stressing the known fact that his body indeed was. What you deify and conceive as your Lord and God is but made of matter, and created matter -- to worship therefore a corporeal and material thing is polytheism, in spite of the 'Father and Son as one' concept.

The Bible's god is shown as imperfect and lacking omnipotence for the above reasons.

[rpwelton]

Fedos,

What cave are you living in that you cannot see anything outside of it? I want to bring you of there!

Everything which Fedos claims is exactly the same as in Islam or Judaism, minus the Jesus part - devoted Muslims and Jews live sinlessly and rejoice in the presence of God. Neither are they rapists, murderers, homosexuals, thieves, adulterers etc,. Equally, they feel no spiritual insecurity.

While I agree with most of your post, I want to stop you right there with the comparison of Christianity to Islam in terms of sin (I can't defend Judaism because I don't know enough about it to do so). We Muslims do not claim to live a life free from sin. We may struggle with sin every day. We are able to attain salvation because we believe in a God who forgives us when we repent from our sins. We do not say at the end of the day "Ah, today I did not sin, I've been a good Muslim", because that would be pure arrogance. Even Jesus, when asked why he was good, responded with: "Why do you call me good, when only the Father is good?" So if not even Jesus thought he was good, who are we to call ourselves good?

There is a big difference between a Christian believing they are "beyond sin" and a Muslim who knows that sin is a reality and, when one commits it, one must ask for forgiveness.

As Muslims we fear God, but also acknowledge His Mercy. A Muslim lives in accordance with this balance, striving to do good as much as possible, but knowing that we as humans are not infallible, and thus our wrong actions can bring upon the Wrath of Allah if we do not sincerely repent from them and turn towards good.

There is no automatic "power" over sin like what Fedos is describing happens to a Christian. We simply have a system in place (Islam) that if followed correctly (like a patient taking medicine) will put us on the straight path with the guidance of Allah. Muslims, however, recognize we do not live in a theoretical world without sin.

I don't want to make this another point of contention, but mainly to just clarify that Islam has a very different concept of salvation from Christianity.

[mkh4JC]

The greatest question Christianity must answer is that, if God is omnipotent [all powerful] and omniscient [all knowing], then why did He decide to decree sin as unpardonable without Him incarnating into a human being and suffering 'death'? But people of better reason see that an almighty god possesses the ability to forgive those who surrender to His will and live in accordance to His commandments. They live 'in God' as Christians live 'in Christ' and lead the most righteous life.

I already answered this. It has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it must be paid. You have to either accept the payment that God has provided (through the atoning work of the cross) or you'll end up paying your own sin debt.

'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23

[AntiKarateKid]

I already answered this. It has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it must be paid. You have to either accept the payment that God has provided (through the atoning work of the cross) or you'll end up paying your own sin debt.

'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23

Ok now I can work with this. Sure sin has a price. In Islam it is hell or suffering in this life. THough since Allah is the judge of everything, if he chooses to forgive someone if they have sincerely repented and are prepared to accept either his mercy or punishment, where does your blood atonement come into? Or even if they suffered his punishments already and are now open for forgiveness? Why atonement?



You talk about sin having a price to pay but what kind of payment to God is having God come down and suffering and dying for you?

They payment should come from the indebted not the debtor.

[rpwelton]

Ok now I can work with this. Sure sin has a price. In Islam it is hell or suffering in this life. THough since Allah is the jude of everything, if he chooses to forgive someone if they have sincerely repented and are prepared to accept either his mercy or punishment, where does your blood atonement come into? Or even if they suffered his punishments already and are now open for forgiveness? Why atonement?



You talk about sin having a price to pay but what kind of payment to God is having God come down and suffering and dying for you?

They payment should come from the indebted not the debtor.

Quite right. It often seems as though Christians have a concept of God that negates His Mercy and Justice.

First, about Justice. God is supposedly punishing us for a sin that Adam committed. I didn't eat the apple...why should I be punished? This is not justice. In Islam we are each given an equal opportunity to sin or not sin; the burden of one person is not placed on the shoulders of another.

Second, about Mercy. Apparently in Christianity God cannot just forgive someone of their sins; only blood of an innocent, pure individual (Jesus) can absolve sin. So that means that even if I am indebted to God for sin, He cannot forgive me (or will not, I'm not sure exactly) because we owe Him.

But let's take an example to show how that cannot be the case. If Person A lends money to Person B, but Person B is not able to repay the loan because of hardship, the lender can just forgive the debt if he so wishes. Does that mean that the lender is more merciful than God (may Allah forgive me for even mentioning this)?

Why would God create us with the ability to sin, but then create a "repayment" system such that only God can pay the debt? To go back to the lending example, it's like the lender just paying himself for the debt of someone else. Clearly this defies all logic!

[mkh4JC]

Ok now I can work with this. Sure sin has a price. In Islam it is hell or suffering in this life. THough since Allah is the judge of everything, if he chooses to forgive someone if they have sincerely repented and are prepared to accept either his mercy or punishment, where does your blood atonement come into? Or even if they suffered his punishments already and are now open for forgiveness? Why atonement?

You can only truly repent of sin by accepting Jesus Christ as your savior and receiving newness of life. Repenting means to turn away, to not practice (again) those things that you were previously bound with.

You talk about sin having a price to pay but what kind of payment to God is having God come down and suffering and dying for you?

They payment should come from the indebted not the debtor.

Yes, and if you sin as a Christian, then almighty God will punish you for it. I should know as I have been suffering for things that I did way back since the summer of 2002. If you continue to sin, then God may execute judgement on you, taking you out of the world of the living.

Quite right. It often seems as though Christians have a concept of God that negates His Mercy and Justice.

First, about Justice. God is supposedly punishing us for a sin that Adam committed. I didn't eat the apple...why should I be punished? This is not justice. In Islam we are each given an equal opportunity to sin or not sin; the burden of one person is not placed on the shoulders of another.

A person won't be punished for something Adam did. You would be punished for your own sin that you committed.

Second, about Mercy. Apparently in Christianity God cannot just forgive someone of their sins; only blood of an innocent, pure individual (Jesus) can absolve sin. So that means that even if I am indebted to God for sin, He cannot forgive me (or will not, I'm not sure exactly) because we owe Him.

It's true that you can never pay back God for salvation, but it's not like he expects you to pay him back. Eternal life is a gift from God in the Christian sense. Not of works, so no one can boast in the presence of God.

Why would God create us with the ability to sin, but then create a "repayment" system such that only God can pay such a debt? To go back to the lending example, it's like the lender just paying himself for the debt of someone else. Clearly this defies all logic!

Well, it may seem illogical, to man and his wisdom. But The Bible says the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. And that God has chosen those things that seem weak in the world's eyes (the cruxificion for instance) to confound the wise.

[rpwelton]

Well, it may seem illogical, to man and his wisdom. But The Bible says the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. And that God has chosen those things that are seem weak in the world's eyes (the cruxificion for instance)( to confound the wise.

The Bible also says that God is not the author of confusion.

[AntiKarateKid]

FEDOS: You can only truly repent of sin by accepting Jesus Christ as your savior and receiving newness of life. Repenting means to turn away, to not practice (again) those things that you were previously bound with.



I repented for many of my sins and dont do many of them anymore. Isnt repentance an action one chooses to DO? How does repentance come through something else like belief in Jesus pbuh? You committed the sin in the first place.

[mkh4JC]

I repented for many of my sins and dont do many of them anymore. Isnt repentance an action one chooses to DO? How does repentance come through something else like belief in Jesus pbuh? You committed the sin in the first place.

Repentance is what God enables you to do. By accepting Christ you can be free from all unrighteousness. That is the only way to truly be free from sin. Christianity is holy God reaching out to sinful man, everything else is man reaching out to God.

The Bible also says that God is not the author of confusion.

Yes this is true. But we are all born into this world spiritually dead, and it takes divine intervention for us to know God. Meaning, that those who are in the world (ie in their sins) will consider the things of God foolishness, because they are in enmity towards holy God.

[AntiKarateKid]

Repentance is what God enables you to do. By accepting Christ you can be free from all unrighteousness. That is the only way to truly be free from sin. Christianity is holy God reaching out to sinful man, everything else is man reaching out to God.



Yes this is true. But we are all born into this world spiritually dead, and it takes divine intervention for us to know God. Meaning, that those who are in the world (ie in their sins) will consider the things of God foolishness, because they are in enmity towards holy God.

Then how come you said that Christians don't necessarily start doing better deeds and sinning less by accepting Jesus pbuh? They are free from all unrighteousness now right?

[mkh4JC]

Then how come you said that Christians don't necessarily start doing better deeds and sinning less by accepting Jesus pbuh? They are free from all unrighteousness now right?

I said that God puts those things on your heart when you become a Christian. You don't have to work for your salvation as a Christian, it is a gift of God. And I've explained the Christian lifestyle mutliple times now.

[AntiKarateKid]

I said that God puts those things on your heart when you become a Christian. You don't have to work for your salvation as a Christian, it is a gift of God. And I've explained the Christian lifestyle mutliple times now.

But my brothers at the Mosque devote many hours to charities and praise God morning and night, they arent Christian? Neither is my Jewish barber who's a godfearing man.

Why do you say you don't have to work for your salvation?

There are many hardcore murderers and rapists who are Christian, are they promised salvation? The bloodthirty conquistadores who wiped out the native americans were devout Christians. Are all of these guaranteed heaven?

If you say no, that you contradict yourself, and you DO have to work to be a Christian.

If yes, well... I'll leave you to figure out what's wrong with that.

[rpwelton]

But up until the time of Jesus, God made people work for their sins. They had to repent for the wrongs they had done by turning to God in forgiveness. Suddenly, Jesus dies and people no longer have to work.

What makes more sense; a God who is constant or a god who changes? Given that God is an ever-present, uncreated, omniscient being, I'm going to go with the former.

[AntiKarateKid]

But up until the time of Jesus, God made people work for their sins. They had to repent for the wrongs they had done by turning to God in forgiveness. Suddenly, Jesus dies and people no longer have to work.

What gives?

Technically since Jesus is God he changed his way of forgiveness by sacrificing himself.

[mkh4JC]

But my brothers at the Mosque devote many hours to charities and praise God morning and night, they arent Christian? Neither is my Jewish barber who's a godfearing man.

Why do you say you don't have to work for your salvation?

God will not accept the good works of those who are still committing trespasses. To God those are not good works but imperfect works, because they are still in their sins. God wants to first cleanse us from all unrighteousness, then we can start doing good works for him.

[B]There are many hardcore murderers and rapists who are Christian, are they promised salvation? The bloodthirty conquistadores who wiped out the native americans were devout Christians. Are all of these guaranteed heaven?

The whole point of Christianity is to receive newness of life. Sins like murder and rape I would imagine are what the Bible calls sin unto death. But just because you murder or rape someone that doesn't mean that God has forsaken you. You still have an opportunity to be forgiven of even things like that. Consider the mercy that Cain professed God showed him after he murdered Abel.

Now, that doesn't mean that Conquistadores were really Christian, because they weren't. It also doesn't mean, that those Catholics who initiated the Crusades were Christian either, or Hitler. These people had none of Christ. It's not like you can accept Christ, and begin to live any kind of way you wish.

[AntiKarateKid]

God will not accept the good works of those who are still committing trespasses. To God those are not good works but imperfect works, because they are still in their sins. God wants to first cleanse us from all unrighteousness, then we can start doing good works for him.



The whole point of Christianity is to receive newness of life. Sins like murder and rape I would imagine are what the Bible calls sin unto death. But just because you murder or rape someone that doesn't mean that God has forsaken you. You still have an opportunity to be forgiven of even things like that. Consider the mercy that Cain professed God showed him after he murdered Abel.

Now, that doesn't mean that Conquistadores were really Christian, because they weren't. It also doesn't mean, that those Catholics who initiated the Crusades were Christian either, or Hitler. These people had none of Christ. It's not like you can accept Christ, and begin to live any kind of way you wish.

Fedos, thanks for the response but I feel like you are sidestepping each of my questions. I tried to make them as direct as possible but this is kind of frustrating, to be honest.

[mkh4JC]

But up until the time of Jesus, God made people work for their sins. They had to repent for the wrongs they had done by turning to God in forgiveness. Suddenly, Jesus dies and people no longer have to work.

What makes more sense; a God who is constant or a god who changes? Given that God is an ever-present, uncreated, omniscient being, I'm going to go with the former.

In terms of the Old Testament saints, the Bible says that Abraham for instance believed God (that he would make of him a nation) and it was accounted to him for righteousness. People in the Old Testament were waiting on the promise of the Messiah, which is Christ. The Old Testament is a precursor or a foreshadowing of the New. The Old Testament saints, when they died, were in what scripture calls paradise in the center of the Earth, because they couldn't be in the presence of a holy God without Christ's redeeming work on the cross. If the law (or Old Testament) was perfect (meaning if people could keep the law perfectly without spot or blemish) then there would have been no need to send Christ into the world to redeem us.

[rpwelton]

Now, that doesn't mean that Conquistadores were really Christian, because they weren't. It also doesn't mean, that those Catholics who initiated the Crusades were Christian either, or Hitler. These people had none of Christ. It's not like you can accept Christ, and begin to live any kind of way you wish.

That's very judgmental of you. I wonder how many Christians there actually are in the world, if we're going by your standards?

[mkh4JC]

That's very judgmental of you. I wonder how many Christians there actually are in the world, if we're going by your standards?

Well, it doesn't take you long to discern who is Christian or who is not Christian. If someone confesses to you that they are Christian, and the next thing that comes out of their mouth is a dirty joke or a swear word, then no, they don't have an ounce of Jesus.

And in Hitler's case for instance, no, he had none of Christ. Now, he may have been aided by the Catholic Church (I've read this in a couple places) but the Roman Catholic Church is not Christian. Hitler was actually an occultist, and demon possessed.

[AntiKarateKid]

Well, it doesn't take you long to discern who is Christian or who is not Christian. If someone confesses to you that they are Christian, and the next thing that comes out of their mouth is a dirty joke or a swear word, then no, they don't have an ounce of Jesus.

And in Hitler's case for instance, no, he had none of Christ. Now, he may have been aided by the Catholic Church (I've read this in a couple places) but the Roman Catholic Church is not Christian. Hitler was actually an occultist, and demon possessed.

So you would say the Muslim who abstains from such behavior has more "Jesus" in them?

[mkh4JC]

So you would say the Muslim who abstains from such behavior has more "Jesus" in them?

Well, that was just an example. You have to first accept Christ. Me for instance, when I was in sin, I cursed a handful of times, mainly because my parents too were Christian, and they served as an example to me.

[AntiKarateKid]

Well, that was just an example. You have to first accept Christ. Me for instance, when I was in sin, I cursed a handful of times, mainly because my parents too were Christian, and they served as an example to me.

You didnt answer my question Fedos...

[mkh4JC]

You didnt answer my question Fedos...

I thought I did. You have to first accept Christ to have any of him.

[AntiKarateKid]

I thought I did. You have to first accept Christ to have any of him.

So the Christians who go to church but continue to use foul language and act rude have more Jesus in them than the Jew who acts polite and abstains from foul behavior huh?

And the Christian who goes to church but doesnt donate to charity has more Jesus in him than the Muslim who dedicates his life to the poor.

[mkh4JC]

So the Christians who go to church but continue to use foul language and act rude have more Jesus in them than the Jew who acts polite and abstains from foul behavior huh?

And the Christian who goes to church but doesnt donate to charity has more Jesus in him than the Muslim who dedicates his life to the poor.

I didn't say that. I said that you have to first accept Christ to have any of him. And, if someone is using foul language and acting rude I question if they are truly saved to begin with, simply based on how I know God works in the life of a believer.

In terms of the last part of your response, this is how it goes: the deeper you go in Christ (ie falling in love with him, studying the Word and discovering his plan for your life, praying, etc, etc), the more concerned you become, and more passionate you are for the lost.

[AntiKarateKid]

I didn't say that. I said that you have to first accept Christ to have any of him. And, if someone is using foul language and acting rude I question if they are truly saved to begin with, simply based on how I know God works in the life of a believer.

In terms of the last part of your response, this is how it goes: the deeper you go in Christ (ie falling in love with him, studying the Word and discovering his plan for your life, praying, etc, etc), the more concerned you become, and more passionate you are for the lost.

So you admit that a pious Jew has more "Jesus" in them than an immoral Christian? yes or no?

[mkh4JC]

So you admit that a pious Jew has more "Jesus" in them than an immoral Christian? yes or no?

I said, that I question whether or not this supposed "Christian" has ever had a real experience with Jesus Christ. Unless this Jewish person you speak of is one of the Messianic Jews, then no, they have never known Christ. If a Christian stumbles and falls into sin (and I stress the if because they don't have to) at least they know what it is like to live holy before God.

[Indigåtor]

Fedos,

Thanks for answering one paragraph out of my post.

You speak of Mercy and Justice. As you do this, you are unknowingly denying the omnipotence of God. Muslims and Jews equally believe in these two attributes but they define them in a more rational manner. A God characterized with 'perfect justice' and 'perfect mercy' does not decree redemption. You can hide all you want behind the fireplace of the 'foolishness of the wise' argument [nothing more than an escape from reason] but the fact of the matter will forever remain that God -- perfectly just and merciful -- works not by sacrificial redemption nor atonement based on mere works. Neither. Furthermore, your God is imperfect for He appears to be incapable establishing the original concept of salvation. He's plain powerless.

According to the prophet of Islam, deeds do not grant anyone heaven; it is utter faith and submission in God that purifies the soul and atones its faults, providing it salvation. As in Christianity, good works are taught to be proof of faith, and faith and works are inseparable. Embracing the doctrine of a Christened atonement, Abrahamaically speaking, will not in a million years absolve your sin as much as it may be comforting to the Christian. The original and uncorrupted God demands that a servant prove himself worthy of His grace. This is done by submitting the body and soul to Him and believing without wavering or taking false gods. Christ's created anatomy [which you failed to address] is incapable of saving your soul.

As sad it appears, a Christian cannot connect with an unseen God, hence he finds relief in the false portraits of Yeheshuwa and his statues as reminders of God's anthropomorphous image.

God is considered almighty - yet his mightiness is shattered by Christianity, a religion that has invented a tempting doctrine to escape the judgement of an unchanging God by interpreting Yeheshuwa's words in a twisted fashion.

And that's the bottom line, 'cause God said so. There is no escape in the heavens or in the earth from His wrath, not even through a erroneously deified messiah. The only path to mercy and spiritual guidance is as the Qur'an or Torah would purport: submission; surrendering your whole being to your creator and embracing Him without seeing Him. Then, and only then, are you considered 'holy', possessing the power not to sin [by intention].

But the wisdom of the Christian is foolishness unto Allah or Yahweh, and the Lord has confounded the polytheists for they have taken security in the worship of what He produced into being - Yeheshuwa, an anointed prophet sent to the Sons of Israel.

NOTE: My comments are merely hypothetical as I do not believe in any god or religion - I'm here to make us 'come now and reason together' :)

[mkh4JC]

Fedos,

Thanks for answering one paragraph out of my post.

You speak of Mercy and Justice. As you do this, you are unknowingly denying the omnipotence of God. Muslims and Jews equally believe in these two attributes but they define them in a more rational manner. A God characterized with 'perfect justice' and 'perfect mercy' does not decree redemption. You can hide all you want behind the fireplace of the 'foolishness of the wise' argument [nothing more than an escape from reason] but the fact of the matter will forever remain that God -- perfectly just and merciful -- works not by sacrificial redemption nor atonement based on mere works. Neither. Furthermore, your God is imperfect for He appears to be incapable establishing the original concept of salvation. He's plain powerless.

The plan of salvation was established throughout the Old Testament in the requirement of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins. The Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New, or a picture of the New. And no, blood sacrifice is not a pagan practice. I do not believe that an almighty, all knowing creator would begin to reveal himself to mankind through the Old Testament and allow it to become corrupted, as if he doesn't have the power to stop it.

According to the prophet of Islam, deeds do not grant anyone heaven; it is utter faith and submission in God that purifies the soul and atones its faults, providing it salvation. As in Christianity, good works are taught to be proof of faith, and faith and works are inseparable. Embracing the doctrine of a Christened atonement, Abrahamaically speaking, will not in a million years absolve your sin as much as it may be comforting to the Christian.

The thief on the cross when he was about to die asked Christ to just remember him when he comes into his kingdom and Jesus told him that today he would be with him in paradise. This is someone who was about to die and had not lived a righteous life before God, nor did he have good works. And as I said, you do good works when you are a Christian because God puts it on your heart to do them.

The original and uncorrupted God demands that a servant prove himself worthy of His grace. This is done by submitting the body and soul to Him and believing without wavering or taking false gods. Christ's created anatomy [which you failed to address] is incapable of saving your soul.

No. God demands that we live righteous before him, because he is holy and he wants his servants to be holy as well. You can't prove yourself to be worthy of God's grace, because none of us are worthy of it. And Christ literally stepped down from the throne of heaven and entered into the womb of Mary so I fail to see your point here.

As sad it appears, a Christian cannot connect with an unseen God, hence he finds relief in the false portraits of Yeheshuwa and his statues as reminders of God's anthropomorphous image.

This is a very Catholic doctrine, and I as a born again Christian do not put much stock in Catholicism.

God is considered almighty - yet his mightiness is shattered by Christianity, a religion that has invented a tempting doctrine to escape the judgement of an unchanging God by interpreting Yeheshuwa's words in a twisted fashion.

And that's the bottom line, 'cause God said so. There is no escape in the heavens or in the earth from His wrath, not even through a erroneously deified messiah. The only path to mercy and spiritual guidance is as the Qur'an or Torah would purport: submission; surrendering your whole being to your creator and embracing Him without seeing Him. Then, and only then, are you considered 'holy', possessing the power not to sin [by intention].

You know, rpwelton replied to your last post, but you ignored him.

But the wisdom of the Christian is foolishness unto Allah or Yahweh, and the Lord has confounded the polytheists for they have taken security in the worship of what He produced into being - Yeheshuwa, an anointed prophet sent to the Sons of Israel.

NOTE: My comments are merely hypothetical as I do not believe in any god or religion - I'm here to make us 'come now and reason together' :)

Well you can either accept what a Christian has to say, or you can choose to reject it. I can't make you believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The most effective thing I can do, is witness to what he has done in my own life.

[Grace Seeker]

So you would say the Muslim who abstains from such behavior has more "Jesus" in them?

As long as you put it in "quotes", I'll say YES to your question.


I believe in something known as prevenient grace. This is a type of grace that comes to us all people whereby God reaches out and into people's lives, most often in ways that the people he is touching with his grace are quite unaware of it. But it begins the process that moves them back toward God. To the extent that a Muslim or a Jew or even an athiest is moved back toward the things of God, I believe that is a result of this prompting that God does in our lives, because apart from God's grace I also believe that we humans are so fallen that we can do no good thing completely on our own power. So, YES, the person who is responding (even if completely unaware or while consciously fighting God) to this movement of grace in their lives that leads them to live more in keeping with the ways of God has, to some extent, been touched by the hand of God. That's not what Christians usually mean when we refer to a person having "Jesus in them" -- and I think that more common usage is what Fedos might have been thinking of in his response above -- but I can still affirm that Jesus is there, moving in and through them in the form of His Holy Spirit, whether they are aware of it or not.

[Grace Seeker]

This has been a most interesting thread to just sit back and read and not respond to. But now that I have, I wish to go back to the OP and address a few things that I didn't see addressed in the course of my readings. And I begin with a question of the OP:

OK, so this is another trinity-related question, although it doesn't have to do with the confusing nature of the doctrine, but rather the "Holy Ghost" element of it.

So my understanding is that the Holy Ghost is the part of God that lives inside each and every Christian. This spirit causes the person to live a Christian life. I also know that this belief has different meanings to different people, but I think that's the jist of it, right?

OK, so then my question would be this: if God (or a part of Him) is actually living inside of a person, how could that person commit even the smallest, minute sin? The Bible says that God cannot be in the presence of sin, so how can God, Who is Perfect, dwell inside of a creature which is by nature, imperfect?

Thanks!

My question is simple. Where in the Bible does it actually say that God cannot be in the presence of sin?

You see, the fact of the matter is that God must be in the presence of sin if the cross is to be the instrument of atonement that Christians claim it is. It is on the cross, that Christians say that Jesus became the Lamb of God who takest away the sins of the world. Jesus took our sins upon himself, just as the scriptures say: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). And since Christians understand that Jesus is God, then it simply is not true that God cannot be in the presence of sin, for at least at one point in human history he already has been. God was certainly in the presence of sin when Jesus took sin upon himself on the cross.

[Grace Seeker]

WOW!! I actually managed to kill this thread with my simple comment.

[rpwelton]

This has been a most interesting thread to just sit back and read and not respond to. But now that I have, I wish to go back to the OP and address a few things that I didn't see addressed in the course of my readings. And I begin with a question of the OP:




My question is simple. Where in the Bible does it actually say that God cannot be in the presence of sin?

You see, the fact of the matter is that God must be in the presence of sin if the cross is to be the instrument of atonement that Christians claim it is. It is on the cross, that Christians say that Jesus became the Lamb of God who takest away the sins of the world. Jesus took our sins upon himself, just as the scriptures say: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). And since Christians understand that Jesus is God, then it simply is not true that God cannot be in the presence of sin, for at least at one point in human history he already has been. God was certainly in the presence of sin when Jesus took sin upon himself on the cross.

Nearly forgot about this thread.

OK, so my basic premise was based on what Christians have said, not necessarily from the Bible. Below is a comment from Fedos (from a different thread) talking about this sin/presence thing:

God will not tolerate a sinner in his presence, because he is holy and there is no darkness in him.

I understand that there could be a difference between "sin" and a "sinner", since Jesus himself was obviously not a sinner, but rather he apparently had "absorbed" the sins of the world.

But in the end, if a Christian sins (which he or she most certainly will), then God is technically in the presence of that sinner, since he or she has the "holy spirit" in themselves.

The other problem I think that exists is that Christians tend to build themselves into this highly theoretical life without sin, as if they are living completely holy and pure on this earth. It's all well and good in theory, but nobody actually lives like that. Something about that says to me that a Christian believes they have become "good enough" for God. I think this is quite dangerous.

Again, if I'm wrong in any of my thinking, please correct me. But after reading the multitude of discussions on this board and speaking with Christians around me, that's the impression that I get.

[Grace Seeker]

Again, if I'm wrong in any of my thinking, please correct me. But after reading the multitude of discussions on this board and speaking with Christians around me, that's the impression that I get.

You are wrong in your thinking. But I don't say that as a slam against you personally. I can see how you get led that way because there are enough Christians that express what you say (wongly, IMO) to cause the confusion you are experiencing.


I agree that if a Christian sins that God is technically in the presence of that sin, since the Holy Spirit dwells within us. And Christians do sin. We shouldn't, but we do. Fortunately, one of the functions of the Holy Spirit within is to convict us of sin and lead us into righteousness. Those who submit to this leading of the Holy Spirit (and you can hardly call yourself a Christian if you aren't willing to at least try faithfully submit to God's leading in your life), will find themselves less and less falling into sin, but for most of us this is a lifelong learning process.

But as for as the theoretical life without sin, that remains more of an aspiration than a reality for most of us. I'm not going to say that it doesn't ever happen, because with God all things are possible, but simple oberservation tells you that it is not the norm. This by no means excuses sin in a Christian's life. Rather it means that we still need to humbly come before God confessing our sins and seeking his forgiveness, that we need to trust in Christ's righteousness and not our own for salvation, and that we need to keep growing in grace and never be satisfied with a single moment in time when we said YES to God in Jesus -- for if we only said YES once and then walk away from it, it is as if never said YES at all. The genuine Christian life is one of affirming a continual YES to God's call to "be holy and I am holy", and to realize that we can't do that on our own, but only by submitting ourselves to Christ's leading in our lives. But also realize that this sort of sanctification is generally a process and not an instantaneous event, so we must continually give ourselves over to God each and every day, not just as some single decision making point in the past.