fate/destiny vs free choice

[logic]

Assalamu Aleikum brothers and sisters,

My thoughts are scrambled on this matter, so forgive me any injustice caused.
What is destiny/fate and what role does it play in Islam?

When a Muslim has been denied something they crave (like, sight for example, assume the person is blind), how does one know if it is their destiny to live without it (no matter how sincere duas are made and who [shaiks/imaams] they're made by) or if intense dua and lifestyle change can alter the "problem".

In this case, being granted what I don't have requires what doctors would say is a miracle.
Should I keep praying for it? How do I know if it is my "destiny" to live life without it. Will decisions I make alter my "destiny"? or does destiny encompass all possible outcomes? How many outcomes are there? why has this been taken away from me? and will I get it back? or if I never had it, will it be granted to me?

Again, apologies for any injustices caused,

Asalaam

[learningislam]

:wasalamex

Regarding your question about destiny and free will, checkout the links below.
Is man’s fate pre-destined or does he have freedom of will?
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/20806

Could you explain to me the Islamic view of the Divine Will and Decree (al-qada’ wa’l-qadar)? What should I believe with regard to this topic?.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/49004

What is the benefit of praying istikhaarah when things are already decreed?

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/112094

Hope that answers your queries. If not, please ask.

:salamext:

[absuk]

:wasalamex

Regarding your question about destiny and free will, checkout the links below.
Is man’s fate pre-destined or does he have freedom of will?
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/20806

Could you explain to me the Islamic view of the Divine Will and Decree (al-qada’ wa’l-qadar)? What should I believe with regard to this topic?.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/49004

What is the benefit of praying istikhaarah when things are already decreed?

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/112094

Hope that answers your queries. If not, please ask.

:salamext:

:sl:

I have just read through the links above, but still remain confused. The Sheikh comments:

"What is meant by al-qadar is that Allaah has decreed all things from eternity and knows that they will happen at times that are known to Him, and in specific ways, and that He has written that and willed it, and they happen according to what He has decreed. [al-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar by Dr ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Mahmoud, p. 39]. "

So Allah created me, Knowing exactly how my life will turn out, what I will do, when I will do it. Allah is also most Compassionate, and Merciful.

I am struggling to understand the concept of being judged in the hereafter for fulfilling the Wish, and predestination that Allah had written for me.

Before I was born, it was written that I would lead a pious and obedient life. My reward for that being written, is a life of eternity in Heaven.

Alternatively -

Unfortunately, it was written for me before I was born, to lead a sinful and disobedient life. Allah Guides whomsover He wishes, and denies Guidance to whomsover He wishes. I was denied guidance, and it was written before I was born. Why then would the most Merciful and Compassionate Creator punish me for all of eternity?


Please please please accept this as a sincere question from a Muslim with a very fragile Imaan, who is striving to resolve his doubts. I do not mean to insult anyone by asking this question, nor do I want to be insulted. If anyone could help me, I will be very grateful. I would also appreciate a reasoned response, and not just a suggestion to pray and reject the whisperings of Shai'tan.

[Tornado]

I do not mean to insult anyone by asking this question, nor do I want to be insulted. If anyone could help me, I will be very grateful.

Don't fret. This is a very good question. If you get an answer, you'd be that'd much closer to your religion.

I hope you get a satisfying answer.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[أبو سليمان عمر]

well akhi i can try to explain but here i found this mashallah great explanation
inshallah it will answer you Question
Allah Knows everything that will happen. The first thing that He created was the "pen" and He ordered the pen to write. The pen wrote until it had written everything that would happen. And then Allah began to create the universe. All of this was already known to Him before He created it. He does have absolute and total control at all times. There is nothing that happens except that He is in control of if.
There is a mistake in the question: "Free Will." Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, "Free choice." The difference is that what Allah "Wills" always happens and what we choose may or may not happen. We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for. Each person will be judged according to what Allah gave them to work with, how they used it and what they intended to do with it.

As regards the actual "Judgment Day" - Allah tells us that everything we are doing is being recorded and not a single tiny thing escapes from this record. Even an atom's weight of good will be seen on the Day of Judgment and even a single atom's weight of evil will be seen too.

The one who will bring the evidences against us will be ourselves. Our ears, tongue, eyes and all of our bodies will begin to testify against us in front of Allah on the Day of Judgment. None will be oppressed on that Day, none will be falsely accused.

He could have put everyone in their respective places from the very beginning, but the people would complain as to why they were thrown in Hell without being given a chance. This life is exactly that; a chance to prove to ourselves who we really are and what we would really do if we indeed had a free choice.

Allah Knows everything that will happen, but we don't. That is why the test is fair.
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/articles/God_proof.html

[absuk]

Don't fret. This is a very good question. If you get an answer, you'd be that'd much closer to your religion.

I hope you get a satisfying answer.

Thank you very much Tornado, I really appreciate the encouragement!

[absuk]

well akhi i can try to explain but here i found this mashallah great explanation
inshallah it will answer you Question
Allah Knows everything that will happen. The first thing that He created was the "pen" and He ordered the pen to write. The pen wrote until it had written everything that would happen. And then Allah began to create the universe. All of this was already known to Him before He created it. He does have absolute and total control at all times. There is nothing that happens except that He is in control of if.
There is a mistake in the question: "Free Will." Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, "Free choice." The difference is that what Allah "Wills" always happens and what we choose may or may not happen.
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/articles/God_proof.html

:sl:
Umar, and thank you for such a speedy reply!

I am afraid it stil does not make sense to me. In particular I am struggling with the difference between Allah's Will, and my Free Choice. Is this an opinion, or is this a direct quote from the Quran or authntic hadith?

Alternatively, can you simplify it for me, to help make it easier for me to understand? I appreciate your time on this.

Wassalam

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Akhi it is rather simple everything Allah wills will happen and what we choice may or may not happen if Allah wills it not to happen not matter what u choice it wont happen and if he wills it to mappen no matter what it will happen you are judge by what you choice to do with what Allah has willed for u

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Allah knows His creation, He knows the past, present and future. That's His perfection. We believe in this.


So we sometimes get the question - what's the point of our creation if God already knows what's going to happen to us?

We simply say that God knows, but He also sent us the Criterion between wrong and right, truth and falsehood, and He ordered us to believe and do good - He informed us of the consequences of doing bad. We don't know whether we are successful in the next life (even though Allah does know) - that's why we have to strive to do the good in order to recieve the good (i.e. reward and pleasure of Allah.) If we don't believe and do good, then we have been warned of its consequences (i.e. the punishments etc.)


We believe in all the guidance sent by Allah, so since He informs us that He knows the future, and that we need to believe in this to be successful - we accept that. Since He informs us that we have to be obedient to be successful - we accept that. If we believe and obey, That's what makes us successful, in this life and the next.


http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a...lanation-1165/


So there isn't total compulsion (i.e. you can decide right now if you want to do something forbidden or something rewardable), nor total freedom of will (i.e.you can't decide where you'll be born or how you originally looked like). But something in between.


Also read Surah Layl [92].

[absuk]

:salamext:


Allah knows His creation, He knows the past, present and future. That's His perfection. We believe in this.


So we sometimes get the question - what's the point of our creation if God already knows what's going to happen to us?

We simply say that God knows, but He also sent us the Criterion between wrong and right, truth and falsehood, and He ordered us to believe and do good - He informed us of the consequences of doing bad. We don't know whether we are successful in the next life (even though Allah does know) - that's why we have to strive to do the good in order to recieve the good (i.e. reward and pleasure of Allah.) If we don't believe and do good, then we have been warned of its consequences (i.e. the punishments etc.)


We believe in all the guidance sent by Allah, so since He informs us that He knows the future, and that we need to believe in this to be successful - we accept that. Since He informs us that we have to be obedient to be successful - we accept that. If we believe and obey, That's what makes us successful, in this life and the next.


http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a...lanation-1165/


So there isn't total compulsion (i.e. you can decide right now if you want to do something forbidden or something rewardable), nor total freedom of will (i.e.you can't decide where you'll be born or how you originally looked like). But something in between.


Also read Surah Layl [92].

Thank you Qatada for the clarification. To make sure I understand you correctly:

Allah knows exactly what I will do, when I will sin, how I will sin.

I have to believe in fate and predestination in order to be obedient and successful in the hereafter.

So I strive to be obedient. However, despite my attempts, I comitt sins - which Allah has already written for me to comitt. Why then punish me for eternity? That is the bit I don't understand.

[GreyKode]

So there isn't total compulsion (i.e. you can decide right now if you want to do something forbidden or something rewardable), nor total freedom of will (i.e.you can't decide where you'll be born or how you originally looked like). But something in between.

Exactly!. So basically certain things you didn't choose or you can't choose(like the way you look, your family wealthy or poor) impact to a great extent the way you live and your choices in this life, this is a type of predestination.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

This does not mean that a person has no will in this world, or that a person should not strive to apply the means of attaining happiness and soundness. Allaah has created a means to reach every objective. Whoever wants to have a child has to get married. Whoever wants to be happy in the Hereafter has to strive hard for it, and follow the path of guidance. Whoever wants wealth has to work hard.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Know that everyone will be guided to do that for which he was created. Whoever is meant to be one of the people of happiness will be guided to do the deeds of the people of happiness, and whoever is meant to be one of the people of doom will be guided to do the deeds of the people of doom.” Agreed upon.

Allaah does not tell anyone the details of what will happen to him, good or bad. Hence everyone has to strive to bring goodness to himself and ward off harm from himself. It is not wise to travel a path that leads to the opposite of what he wants and then say, “I will never get anything but that which has been decreed for me.” No one should sit in his house and then say: “I will never get any provision but that which has been decreed for me.” No one should eat rotten food and then say: “Nothing will happen to me but that which Allaah has decreed for me.” These are things which if anyone does them or says them, he would be regarded as insane and he is indeed insane.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/83424

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Some sinners and some who fall short (in religious commitment) make excuses for their shortcomings and sins by saying that Allaah is the One Who has decreed this for them, so they should not be blamed for it.

What they say is not correct under any circumstances. There can be no doubt that belief in al-qadar is no excuse for failing to do obligatory duties or committing sins, according to the consensus of the Muslims and all those who are wise.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “No one has the right to make excuses for sin by referring to al-qadar, according to the consensus of the Muslims and the followers of other religions, and all those who are wise. If this were acceptable, then anyone could do whatever crosses his mind of murder, seizing people’s wealth and any kind of spreading mischief in the land, and quote al-qadar as his excuse. If a person who quotes al-qadar as an excuse were attacked by another person who also quoted al-qadar as an excuse for that, he would not accept that, and thus he would contradict himself, which in itself is proof that that this logic is false. So using al-qadar as an excuse is cleared flawed, as is obvious to anyone who has any common sense. Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 8/179.

Both the texts of sharee’ah and common sense indicate that it is invalid to give al-qadar as an excuse for committing sin or not doing obligatory actions.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/49039

[أبو سليمان عمر]

here and read this :)
http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=18

[- Qatada -]

Thank you Qatada for the clarification. To make sure I understand you correctly:

Allah knows exactly what I will do, when I will sin, how I will sin.

I have to believe in fate and predestination in order to be obedient and successful in the hereafter.

So I strive to be obedient. However, despite my attempts, I comitt sins - which Allah has already written for me to comitt. Why then punish me for eternity? That is the bit I don't understand.

:salamext:


The fact that the Qur'an and Sunnah both explain that Allah knows, yet at the same time they explain that you have a freedom of choice - then you have to accept both and strive to do good in order to get good.

Imagine, if you never revise for a test - you'll never pass. So the same way, if you never do good - you'll never fulfill the conditions to enter Paradise.

[Yanal]

Bro Qatada is correct and his question and answer is excellently put but here's my answer to that question brother Qatada asked:
Allah does know what is going to happen to us but the Shytaan can change our mind and Allah wants to find his true and loyal servants at this time,people who reject the devil and stay loyal to Allah and his messanger will be given a place in heaven but these hardships can also cause a healthy muslim to lose faith in Allah causing him to fall into the hands of the Shytaan,and after you drop it's hard to get back but not impossible.


Thats my answer,take that in view and reply.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Bro Qatada is correct and his question and answer is excellently put but here's my answer to that question brother Qatada asked:
Allah does know what is going to happen to us but the Shytaan can change our mind and Allah wants to find his true and loyal servants at this time,people who reject the devil and stay loyal to Allah and his messanger will be given a place in heaven but these hardships can also cause a healthy muslim to lose faith in Allah causing him to fall into the hands of the Shytaan,and after you drop it's hard to get back but not impossible.


Thats my answer,take that in view and reply.

:) :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

[absuk]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Know that everyone will be guided to do that for which he was created. Whoever is meant to be one of the people of happiness will be guided to do the deeds of the people of happiness, and whoever is meant to be one of the people of doom will be guided to do the deeds of the people of doom.” Agreed upon.

.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/83424

:sl:

Umar I am not questioning predestination regarding doing good, nor striving to eat, live, remain safe etc.

My question relates to the hadith you quoted above. In particular can you help me with the final section:

"...and whoever is meant to be one of the people of doom will be guided to do the deeds of the people of doom"

If it has been written for me to be of the people of doom, then I will be doomed. I agree that I do not know if I am in this group, and should remain steadfast to lead a good and obedient life. However, if I am in the group of Doom - Allah knew that before I was born. Why punish me for eternity?

[Yanal]

Because it's your choice and you can change it.

[GreyKode]

absuk don't take things literally,
The meaning of the ayah "Allah guides whom he wishes" is mainly that if ALLAH wanted he could have guided all of mankind but he leaves us the free will to choose and on the day of judgement the Qur'an says
"kafa benafsika al yawm alayka haseeba"
which means that on the day of judgement it is enough that you be your own judge and you will find that ALLAH is all just.
And ALLAH knows best

[absuk]

:salamext:


The fact that the Qur'an and Sunnah both explain that Allah knows, yet at the same time they explain that you have a freedom of choice - then you have to accept both and strive to do good in order to get good.

Imagine, if you never revise for a test - you'll never pass. So the same way, if you never do good - you'll never fulfill the conditions to enter Paradise.

OK I think we are addressing different questions. As I have just mentioned in my reply to brother Umar, I am not questioning why we need to do good. I am not advocating doing evil and blaming it on fate and predestination. I can vaguely remember the story of the camel, where one Sahabee came to Ali (RA) and complained that he had lost his camel in the desert. When questioned further, the Sahabee confessed that he did not tether the camel when he slept, and the camel wandered off. He put his trust in Allah. Ali (RA) advised that first you tie your camel, then put your trust in Allah! {I apologise if this is an incorrect narration, or not authentic - I heard it when I was fairly young}

If I may use your analogy above:

I was the only person responsible for teaching you in class. At the end of the year, I write the test you describe above. You do not revise - and you fail. That is your fault, and you deserve to fail.

Now lets say you do revise for the test. You work very hard and revise everything I told you to. When you sit the test, you find you can't answer the questions. Now I fail you.

You protest that this is unfair. You worked hard and revised for the test. Unfortunately I wrote a test paper that I KNEW you would fail. Even before you sat the test, I knew you would fail. Is this fair and just?

[أبو سليمان عمر]

A questioner is asking: Why did Allaah create mankind when He knows what their destiny will be, in Paradise or Hell?
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/123973

Allaah does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows that they deserve that, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world. If Allaah created mankind and put them in His Hell, they would soon argue that He did not test them or give them the chance to strive. Allaah wanted to refute this argument, so He created them in this world and gave them reason, and revealed His Books, and sent His Messengers; all of that is so that they will have no argument against Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Man has free will and choice by means of which he does some things and refrains from others, and he believes or disbelieves, and he obeys or disobeys, for which he will be brought to account and rewarded or punished, although Allaah knows what he will do, what he will choose and what his ultimate destiny will be. But Allaah does not compel him to do evil, or to choose kufr, rather He clearly shows him the path and He has sent Messengers and revealed Books, and shown him the right way. Whoever goes astray does so to his own loss,.

[Yanal]

^ and thats what we are trying to explain to you.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

^^^ yes akhi i understood you but he didnt so inshallah know he will

[Yanal]

Allah wants to see how much bad and good we do and then judge us on it,please ask if you didn't understand.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

You should understand, may Allaah bless you, that some people have been misguided with regard to the issue of al-qadar (the divine will and decree), because they think that if Allaah decrees that an action should happen, that means that He likes that thing, and this leads them to think that evil actions happen outside of the will of Allaah. Thus they attribute weakness and incapability to Allaah, when they say that nothing happens in His dominion that He does not want, and so He may will a thing and it does not happen – exalted be Allaah far above what they say. In fact there is no connection between what Allaah loves and wants in terms what is permissible and not permissible, and what He wills and decrees should happen in the universe. This may be explained further as follows:
so u better understand read this
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/49013

[Yanal]

I think thats enough links and explaining until he asks us to expand on our explaining,deal?

[أبو سليمان عمر]

:) inshallah

[absuk]

Man has free will and choice by means of which he does some things and refrains from others, and he believes or disbelieves, and he obeys or disobeys, for which he will be brought to account and rewarded or punished, although Allaah knows what he will do, what he will choose and what his ultimate destiny will be. But Allaah does not compel him to do evil, or to choose kufr, rather He clearly shows him the path and He has sent Messengers and revealed Books, and shown him the right way. Whoever goes astray does so to his own loss,.

OK I think I need to stop asking now! Either I have a limited intelligence and hence unable to understand, or somebody will point out that Shai'tan is playing with my mind. I simply do not see with obvious clarity and ease that you describe. In fact your explanation above makes things even more confusing... Man now does have free choice and will - BUT - Allah knows that he will do it, what he will choose and what his ultimate destiny will be.

I asked these questions a few years ago. I spoke to several Scholars (whom I trust and have known for years). The ultimate advice was that I shouldn't ask so many questions, and think too deeply about fate and predestination. One scholar even suggested that this is an area of blind faith, and humans do not have the capacity to understand. Unfortunately I followed the advice and chose to ignore my inner doubts.

Alas these questions remain in my simple head. Even reading some of the links that members of the forum have directed me to all state that belief in Al-Qadr is fundamental to Imaan. I find it difficult to understand why such an important principle would be made to be so difficult to understand. Islam is a religion and way of life for the whole of humanity - not just for the intellectually elite, nor just for the blind followers....

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Our knowledge is limited in ways that God's knowledge is not. It is our very lack of knowledge which gives us free will. We cannot know our future and to a large extent we cannot control it. Our decisions are based on our understanding of the way the world works.
From an Islamic point of view, Man is free for all practical purposes. He/she has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or fate, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn't expect a miracle!

The foregoing means, that we should not worry about what God has written for us, since we can never know it; but our duty, here and now, is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, insha’Allah.
And Allah knows best.
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE

[أبو سليمان عمر]

My fav part is The foregoing means, that we should not worry about what God has written for us, since we can never know it; but our duty, here and now, is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, insha’Allah.(If Allah willed)

[absuk]

Having just joined the forum, and re-read the Guidelines, I am aware that I am asking a lot of questions around the same theme. I am also aware that this is a sensitive topic, and do not wish to antagonise anyone. I am not here to convince anyone about anything, but for very selfish reasons. My Imaan is falling to such a level that I have to do something about it. I know that I can't simply ignore my doubts, or pray them away. The guidelines also ask to refrain from asking questions that should be directed to scholars. Being new, it is very difficult to gage the scholarly knowledge of the group. I personally have been impressed with the level of knowledge in the forums, but do not want to push too much.

I do appreciate the advice that has been sincerely provided, and thank you all for helping with my enquiries.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

The choices are ours but Allah know what we would have chosen we dont so this is to show ur self Allah could have said ok this guy goes to hell and this ppl will go to heaven He already knows what we will do but then people can say God is not just He didnt test me but Allah is the most Just that He Allowed you to see what your hands did and what you are really like yet he knows but guess what you dont so work hard to pls Allah if you dont pray Allah knows you arent going to pray but it is your chose same for everything else it is your chose and Allah knows what your chose is you dont

[Yanal]

Here is a short list of things you can do to control your iman from falling rapidly:
-Pray to Allah
-Dikr to Allah
-Do nafil prayers
-give charity
-Stop doing sins and repent to Allah.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

you cant change what is.


so live believing and stay away from that which causes doubt.



seriously, the advice above makes perfect sense to me, and i wish someone coulda told me this when i looked into stuff like Qadr.


Assalamu Alaikum

[Yanal]

My advice?

[witness]

Asalamualaikum w.w.

I can understand how frustrating this must be and it is easily something which can mislead one.
However Islam is complete... this destiny question is only a part of the knowledge we are required to believe in and by no means is it the only important area which we need to believe in esp. at the expense of other areas. Islam is about striking a balance and here also it is important to achieve that.

The basic requirement is that we accept it- whether or not we understand it with our (sometimes faulty) logic. The reason we are told not to ask deep questions are for our own good...we sometimes do not have the capacity to understand certain issues.
It is accepting this lack of capacity and acknowledging that it is Allah swt alone who is Perfect and that we are are sinful and prone to err...

but with our sins and faults we submit to Him.......inshallah this is where the Pleasure of Allah and the ultimate succes lies.

What helps me is trying to learn about Allahs attributes..and what that quality means to me.
He is the Most Merciful , the Most compassionate, He is the Most Kind ,the Most Loving the Most Forgiving the Most Just.
I hope you can really deeply try to understand and feel what these beautiful qualities (and all 99 names of Allah) are.

-sorry to put it like this- it appears in your post ,which is probably unintentional...theres an accusation against Allah swt of being cruel ... and with this in mind being put into ever lasting fire, pain and torment without a choice is undoubtly cruel and mean by anyones standards.

If you know Allah swt you will know that is impossible...He is Independent so He can do that if He wishes but He has let His Mercy overcome His Wrath.

Inshallah when you come closer to recognising Allah swt for who He really is...you will see there is no other way, no other will ,no other choice which is more perfect.
There are great pious people who's iman was at such a level that they understood and accepted this and have mentioned that if Allah swt put them in hell they will be happy there because it is His will.
we may not be able to accept it but at least if we can understand that if He wills that we must end up in the fire... then that is the most just and perfect decision.


If you start with just 2 attributes ,brother...the ones which are so beloved to Allah swt that He has put them at the beginning of every surah, ie before giving us any advice, to help us keep in mind that He is...'Ar rahman and Ar raheem' The Most Compassionate and The Most Merciful. Its not just a coincidence!
one more thing i read somewhere....Allah swt treats His servant according to what the servant expects Allah swt to be. So keeping good hopes from Allah swt will be a positive thing Inshallah.

Hope this has been of help.
Wasalam

[absuk]

Asalamualaikum w.w.


-sorry to put it like this- it appears in your post ,which is probably unintentional...theres an accusation against Allah swt of being cruel ... and with this in mind being put into ever lasting fire, pain and torment without a choice is undoubtly cruel and mean by anyones standards.

Wasalam

:w:


JK Sister for this explanation. Whilst elements of the reply still concern me, I really do appreciate the thought and sincerity that you put into the reply. I have been touched by the warm reception I have received on this forum, and the help people have offered in answering my various questions. However, I was at the point of giving up out of sheer frustration. I have not been able to articulate my concerns very well, and hence this has lead to confusion. In turn, the replies to my questions have missed the essence, and point of my enquiries.

Yes you have picked up where my thought process is leading me when you mentioned:

"-sorry to put it like this- it appears in your post ,which is probably unintentional...theres an accusation against Allah swt of being cruel ... and with this in mind being put into ever lasting fire, pain and torment without a choice is undoubtly cruel and mean by anyones standards."

I do not want to verbalise that thought. Whilst my Imaan is incredibly low, I fear the thought of apostasy. However, I also fear that if I do not resolve my doubts, I may be a Muslim by name only. Kidding myself into a belief, or ignoring my thoughts is not a healthy place to be.

In the Quraan, Allah constantly challenges us to think and ponder. Likewise, when the Message was propagated to the pagan community, the Prophet (PBUH) challenged their current thought and belief. I struggle to understand how then, we can decide when to think/ponder, and when to simply accept-particularly when it comes to fundamentals of faith.

I read your reply (and the previous explanations from others) and see contradictions. This can be explained by my wavering faith. You do not see any contradictions in your explanation - no doubt due to your strong faith.

I guess asking for further clarification is futile, because the advice will always be to strengthen my faith – rather than resolve the doubts that lead to my lack of faith….

[coddles76]

Thank you Qatada for the clarification. To make sure I understand you correctly:

Allah knows exactly what I will do, when I will sin, how I will sin.

I have to believe in fate and predestination in order to be obedient and successful in the hereafter.

So I strive to be obedient. However, despite my attempts, I comitt sins - which Allah has already written for me to comitt. Why then punish me for eternity? That is the bit I don't understand.

:sl:

InshAllah I will try to make a simple statement that will inshAllah have some affect.
If Allah SWT willed that only ONE person will enter paradise, Strive your utmost best, with all your might and power to BE that ONE person.

[Tornado]

In the Quraan, Allah constantly challenges us to think and ponder.

To this: If god gave you a mind to ponder, then you should ponder without guilt.

Also, low imam/faith is NOT the reason why you don't totally understand their viewpoints.

If Allah SWT willed that only ONE person will enter paradise, Strive your utmost best, with all your might and power to BE that ONE person.

Persons A, B, C

Before they are born, god knows B will go to heaven, while A and C will go to hell. A and C are destined to go to hell and can not change this path, while B will go to heaven because god has already seen it.

[coddles76]

Persons A, B, C

Before they are born, god knows B will go to heaven, while A and C will go to hell. A and C are destined to go to hell and can not change this path, while B will go to heaven because god has already seen it.

Allah SWt knows that but WE don't know, hence we should strive our hardest to try and recieve the reward of B. I'd rather try with all my effort than not try at all.

[Tornado]

Allah SWt knows that but WE don't know, hence we should strive our hardest to try and recieve the reward of B. I'd rather try with all my effort than not try at all.

The point is that your effort is futile. It does not matter what you do, you simply can't change what's already known by a god.

I hope you get a satisfying answer.

I feel a little bad that he didn't get a satisfying answer : (

[coddles76]

The point is that your effort is futile. It does not matter what you do, you simply can't change what's already known by a god.

Really? I think we should all just stop and do no deeds of good at all because it would be 'futile' to do so, it would be purely a waste of time to do good. I'd rather work at the CHANCE to be granted entry to paradise rather than give up hope even before hope has started.

And don't feel bad, your sympathy won't make his cause any better so its 'futile' to have the emotion.

[Tornado]

Really? I think we should all just stop and do no deeds of good at all because it would be 'futile' to do so, it would be purely a waste of time to do good. I'd rather work at the CHANCE to be granted entry to paradise rather than give up hope even before hope has started.
.

Hmm, what does this have to do with free will? (Off topic: Waste of time to do good? Huh, don't you do good just because you want to, not expecting something in return?)

absuk, don't beat yourself, keep learning and you will arrive at answer.

[coddles76]

Hmm, what does this have to do with free will?
absuk, don't beat yourself, keep learning and you will arrive at answer.

Hmmm Free will? Not sure, but it has alot to do with free choice.
Yes I agree, inshAllah with knowledge you will arrive at a fulfilling answer absuk.

[Tornado]

Hmmm Free will? Not sure, but it has alot to do with free choice.
Yes I agree, inshAllah with knowledge you will arrive at a fulfilling answer absuk.

It's not the same?

[witness]

Asalamualiakum,

Quote...

'I do not want to verbalise that thought. Whilst my Imaan is incredibly low, I fear the thought of apostasy. However, I also fear that if I do not resolve my doubts, I may be a Muslim by name only. Kidding myself into a belief, or ignoring my thoughts is not a healthy place to be.
I read your reply (and the previous explanations from others) and see contradictions. This can be explained by my wavering faith. You do not see any contradictions in your explanation - no doubt due to your strong faith.

I guess asking for further clarification is futile, because the advice will always be to strengthen my faith – rather than resolve the doubts that lead to my lack of faith….'



You need not worry about strengthing your iman...
it is not within our capabilities to do that on our own..we need Allah in everything whether or not we know/ see/ understand or even believe this.

Making dua to Allah to strengthen our iman and to keep us guided is the only way of achieving this (regardless of how strong we think our iman is)....and doing this whether we 'feel' like or not is where the effort/reward lies ... The more in need you are in the more sincere your dua can be.

Maybe you don't need to resolve your doubts or ignore your thoughts.... its not necessary you will find what you are looking for there.
Acknowledging and then accepting them maybe more appropriate. (again dua helps)
perhaps something like (this fate thing...i dont understand it and it seems cruel to me but i'll carrying on striving regardless of these feelings). This can only help keep one humble about oneself and aware of ones own 'non perfect state'...which is no doubt a desirable place to be.

Ironically what you fear you will lose or are lacking in, shines through the very existence of these doubts and fears and your wish for them not to exist...

If the anxiety and concern about your lack of iman is what it appears and remains...inshallah brother you have nothing to worry about...
If shaytan deceives us into thinking that our iman is strong and we are 'sorted'...thats when we need to start worrying.

wasalam

[witness]

Persons A, B, C

Before they are born, god knows B will go to heaven, while A and C will go to hell. A and C are destined to go to hell and can not change this path, while B will go to heaven because god has already seen it.

Free choice means A and C chose the wrong path and they'll end up in hell due to the choice they will make....the fact God knows this does not make Him responsible for their outcome.
We need to take responsibility for the choices we make not blame them on God just because He knows.

[absuk]

Free choice means A and C chose the wrong path and they'll end up in hell due to the choice they will make....the fact God knows this does not make Him responsible for their outcome.
We need to take responsibility for the choices we make not blame them on God just because He knows.

:sl:

Sister I tried to walk away from this topic, but your last quote really blows my mind. Why do I not get it?

I am not saying that I should not strive to lead a good life. Lets assume I am doing that, and looking for excuses.

Please explain "the fact God knows this does not make Him responsible for their outcome"

If Allah knows this BEFORE He created me, then how is He NOT responsible for the outcome?

It's just that statement I need help with please

[witness]

Asalamualaikum,

I know what i mean but i don't know if i can explain it...i'll try inshallah.

Everyone agreed to be in a race but have forgotten the agreement. So now everyone finds themselves about to participate in this race.

All these drivers need to choose their own wheels as each car is without. Everyone knows how to and has the skill to fit wheels to the car.

Theres a store with a few different types of wheels to choose from. only one type of wheel is the correct type to last throughout the race and will fit all the cars.
There is information readily available on how to choose the correct wheel and attach it.... for anyone who is intrested.

Some people are fortunate enough to stand near the correct wheels and use them.
some people are near the desk and look through the manual...or near an attendant and ask for advice.

Others attach some other wheel and realise it does not fit properly so go to find another one that does.

Then there are some who force the wrong wheel on (for safety the vehicles do not readily accept the wrong wheels but they can be forced on) and start driving the car..
...some drivers from this group may come back after wheels fall off and try to then find the right one.

....some choose the wheels without a thought.. force it on and drive on regardless.


When the race ends....If the cars whose wheels do not last for the length of the race and therefore loses, who is most deserving to be blamed for failing?

Will it be the manufacturer just because he made the wheels or the race organiser for having the race in the first place or the store manager for stocking 2 different type of wheels?
Each of the above people can easily 'know' the outcome due to experience but does that mean they are at fault for the drivers decision?
For me...the ultimate responsibility for 'failing the race due to the wheels falling off..' lies with the driver.

And anyone who wins the race...the victory will be the drivers purely because he did what was to be done but not necessarily due to his own genius.


Can't think of any other example at the moment... not sure if this comes across how i intend it to.

Wasalam