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Suomipoika
02-20-2009, 02:19 PM
Some Islamic schools are promoting fundamentalist views and encouraging children to despise Western society, a report warns.

An investigation by the Civitas social policy think-tank found websites of some of the UK’s 166 Muslim schools are spreading extreme teachings, while a handful had links to sites promoting jihad, or holy war.

Examples include web forums forbidding Muslims from reading Harry Potter books, playing chess or cricket and listening to Western music.

The Civitas report, entitled Music, Chess and Other Sins, claims Ofsted inspectors are incapable of scrutinising Muslim faith schools properly, and demands an inquiry by MPs.

Many of the websites featured in the report were shut down or edited in the hours before it was published.

Islamic schools educate thousands of Muslim children. Most operate in the private sector although increasing numbers are seeking state funding.

The study, overseen by Dr Denis MacEoin, a university lecturer in Islamic studies, looked at material found on Islamic schools’ websites, either content or via links.

Examples include the website of the Madani Girls’ School in East London which stated: ‘Our children are exposed to a culture that is in opposition with almost everything Islam stands for.

‘If we oppose the lifestyle of the West then it does not seem sensible that the teachers and the system which represents that lifestyle should educate our children.’

The report claims this ‘bruising comment’ gives children a ‘negative picture of Western life’.

The website comments have since been edited and parts deleted.

Dr MacEoin stressed that the problems were not found in all Muslim schools, but said some were instilling a disturbing ‘ghetto mentality’.

The Association of Muslim Schools condemned the study as ‘misleading, intolerant and divisive’, claiming it was ‘based on prejudices rather than evidence’.

A spokesman said: ‘Muslim schools provide an outstanding standard of education. Ex-pupils have developed into exemplary citizens and participate in all aspects of civic society.’

The Department for Children, Schools and Families said it was investigating the claims and would treat seriously any failure by state-funded schools to ‘promote community cohesion’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html?ITO=1490

Links to Civitas, the report makers:
http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcs87.php
http://www.civicsociety.co.uk/MusicC...ins17Feb09.pdf
Reply

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AntiKarateKid
02-20-2009, 11:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Some Islamic schools are promoting fundamentalist views and encouraging children to despise Western society, a report warns.

An investigation by the Civitas social policy think-tank found websites of some of the UK’s 166 Muslim schools are spreading extreme teachings, while a handful had links to sites promoting jihad, or holy war.

Examples include web forums forbidding Muslims from reading Harry Potter books, playing chess or cricket and listening to Western music.

The Civitas report, entitled Music, Chess and Other Sins, claims Ofsted inspectors are incapable of scrutinising Muslim faith schools properly, and demands an inquiry by MPs.

Many of the websites featured in the report were shut down or edited in the hours before it was published.

Islamic schools educate thousands of Muslim children. Most operate in the private sector although increasing numbers are seeking state funding.

The study, overseen by Dr Denis MacEoin, a university lecturer in Islamic studies, looked at material found on Islamic schools’ websites, either content or via links.

Examples include the website of the Madani Girls’ School in East London which stated: ‘Our children are exposed to a culture that is in opposition with almost everything Islam stands for.

‘If we oppose the lifestyle of the West then it does not seem sensible that the teachers and the system which represents that lifestyle should educate our children.’

The report claims this ‘bruising comment’ gives children a ‘negative picture of Western life’.

The website comments have since been edited and parts deleted.

Dr MacEoin stressed that the problems were not found in all Muslim schools, but said some were instilling a disturbing ‘ghetto mentality’.

The Association of Muslim Schools condemned the study as ‘misleading, intolerant and divisive’, claiming it was ‘based on prejudices rather than evidence’.

A spokesman said: ‘Muslim schools provide an outstanding standard of education. Ex-pupils have developed into exemplary citizens and participate in all aspects of civic society.’

The Department for Children, Schools and Families said it was investigating the claims and would treat seriously any failure by state-funded schools to ‘promote community cohesion’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html?ITO=1490

Links to Civitas, the report makers:
http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcs87.php
http://www.civicsociety.co.uk/MusicC...ins17Feb09.pdf
This is where I stopped reading. Jihad means struggle. Any report still ignorant enough to equate the word Jihad with crusade is not worth reading for their other views on Muslims.
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Fishman
02-20-2009, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
This is where I stopped reading. Jihad means struggle. Any report still ignorant enough to equate the word Jihad with crusade is not worth reading for their other views on Muslims.
:sl:
Daily mail
That is where you should have stopped reading!
I'm not disputing whether some objectionable things have occurred or not, but the Daily Fail is a right-wing newspaper with a habit of distorting stories to make them more shocking. It's not suprising that they claim Jihad means holy war.
:w:
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doorster
02-20-2009, 11:46 PM
This is where I stopped reading. Jihad means struggle. Any report still ignorant enough to equate the word Jihad with crusade is not worth reading for their other views on Muslims.
regardless of what it meant or what it means linguistically, the question is what it is being used to describe today

regarding ban on Harry potter in Islam, I will go along with that for promoting/ sanitizing magic or illusion thereof is same as promoting shirk in my book.
Reply

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Pomak
02-21-2009, 01:05 AM
Chess- There is a debate if it islamically legal.
Harry potter- islamically illigal
Jihad - part of this deen. (both the military and inner ones)
Music- There is a debate if it islamically legal.
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doorster
02-21-2009, 01:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
Chess- There is a debate if it islamically legal.
Harry potter- islamically illegal
Jihad - part of this deen. (both the military and inner ones)
Music- There is a debate if it islamically legal.
yes, I can accept that.

Jihad - part of this deen. (both the military and inner ones)
aka strong Armed forces/Ministry of defence/A good up-to date defence industry, must be number 1 priority of a Muslim State
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Dawud_uk
02-21-2009, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
yes, I can accept that. jazakAllah khair

aka strong Armed forces/Ministry of defence/A good up-to date defence industry, must be number 1 priority of a Muslim State
wow, doorster i think this is the first time you and me agreed on the forum, time to get out the fizzy drinks and cakes and have a celebration!
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Dawud_uk
02-21-2009, 03:10 AM
:sl:

i read this article and also an almost identical one on the telegraph online, yes i know that is a right wing zionist newspaper also but i find it interesting to find out what these nutters right and think.

the problem is they think we are being isolationist, just because we are not being intergrationist, but there is a middle path between the two which involves hanging onto your deen, interacting with the kuffar, but not isolating yourself or intergrating into their society.

i am sure this is what these schools are aiming for, but it is just these newspapers with the 'with us or against us' mentality cannot see the middle path.

:sl:
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Malaikah
02-21-2009, 03:11 AM
wait, what's wrong with cricket? (Assuming the article is actually correct, of course).
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Pomak
02-21-2009, 04:07 AM

the problem is they think we are being isolationist, just because we are not being intergrationist, but there is a middle path between the two which involves hanging onto your deen, interacting with the kuffar, but not isolating yourself or intergrating into their society.
*takes a deep breath and remembers that integration means something else in UK*


PS. don't call non muslims kuffar, its not totally accurate.
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Pomak
02-21-2009, 05:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
Chess- There is a debate if it islamically legal.
Harry potter- islamically illigal
Jihad - part of this deen. (both the military and inner ones)
Music- There is a debate if it islamically legal.
Just to add. Jihad, doesn't mean "holy war", its better translated as "just war", or "morally justified war". With some disagreement on the issue on offensive vs defensive war.

Just wanted to add that, because i know lots of people get confused with the term "holy war" because of its meaning in the Christian tradition.
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Dawud_uk
02-21-2009, 05:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
*takes a deep breath and remembers that integration means something else in UK*


PS. don't call non muslims kuffar, its not totally accurate.
:sl:

i would suggest you start a different thread if gets too long a discussion, but i have heard the arguments against not calling non-muslims kuffar and disagree with them,

Allah calls them kuffar, the prophet muhammad (saws) used this term also when referring to them, as have all the scholars down through the ages.
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justahumane
02-21-2009, 06:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

i would suggest you start a different thread if gets too long a discussion, but i have heard the arguments against not calling non-muslims kuffar and disagree with them,

Allah calls them kuffar, the prophet muhammad (saws) used this term also when referring to them, as have all the scholars down through the ages.

U are absolutely correct brother. We too dont want to be deprived of the excellent and brotherly title which muslims have been bestowing upon us for ages. Thanks for ur affectionate views.
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Dawud_uk
02-21-2009, 07:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
U are absolutely correct brother. We too dont want to be deprived of the excellent and brotherly title which muslims have been bestowing upon us for ages. Thanks for ur affectionate views.
look, you are not the same as me, you are a mushrik, if you become my brother in islam i would love you for the sake of Allah, but you are not, you do the worse sin possible and i have total rejection for that.
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justahumane
02-21-2009, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
look, you are not the same as me, you are a mushrik, if you become my brother in islam i would love you for the sake of Allah, but you are not, you do the worse sin possible and i have total rejection for that.

And brother I too have total rejection for ur habit of deciding other's faith, but it proves ur point that definetely I m not same as U, and I thank ALLAH for that. My religion and faith doesnt allow me to speak more after the coming full stop, at least in this post.
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Dawud_uk
02-21-2009, 07:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
And brother I too have total rejection for ur habit of deciding other's faith, but it proves ur point that definetely I m not same as U, and I thank ALLAH for that. My religion and faith doesnt allow me to speak more after the coming full stop, at least in this post.
you publically declare yourself a hindu, how else am i supposed to judge you other than judging by the apparent?
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Pomak
02-21-2009, 07:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

i would suggest you start a different thread if gets too long a discussion, but i have heard the arguments against not calling non-muslims kuffar and disagree with them,

Allah calls them kuffar, the prophet muhammad (saws) used this term also when referring to them, as have all the scholars down through the ages.
Calling someone a kaffir who isn't earns you hellfire. Also in some languages it means something.... rude.
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justahumane
02-21-2009, 08:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
you publically declare yourself a hindu, how else am i supposed to judge you other than judging by the apparent?
U are supposed to get educated about whether all hindus are idol worshippers, or some can be monotheists too? U are supposed to learn a bit of Sunnah to find out whether the holy prophet used to talk like this to non-muslims? U are supposed to sit for a while, introspect, weigh the language U use while talking about non-muslims here and than judge urself whether it is in true sprit of Islam or not? U are supposed to learn exactly how should U talk while dealing with non-muslims so that U may invite them to Islam if ALLAH guides U so. And U are supposed to get rid of the attitude which prompts U to say" be a muslim first than I will be nice to U". There are many other pieces of advices I can offer to U, but I think this suffice for now.
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Pomak
02-21-2009, 08:25 AM
I feel inclined to agree with the hindu. I know at least one hindu who believes in monotheism and Muhammad's prophethood.
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Dawud_uk
02-21-2009, 08:34 AM
believing in islam also means rejection of taghoot and all false idiologies, anyone who claims another way of life is a kaffir by their actions and speech no matter what they feel is in their heart.

this is the meaning of imaan, what is in the heart, what is confirmed on the tongue and what is shown through actions.

anyone who has hindu on their id is a kaffir and there is nothing wrong with saying so, rejection of disbelief is part of our imaan, one of the conditions of the shahadah, al-wala wal bara
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Pomak
02-21-2009, 08:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
believing in islam also means rejection of taghoot and all false idiologies, anyone who claims another way of life is a kaffir by their actions and speech no matter what they feel is in their heart.

this is the meaning of imaan, what is in the heart, what is confirmed on the tongue and what is shown through actions.

anyone who has hindu on their id is a kaffir and there is nothing wrong with saying so, rejection of disbelief is part of our imaan, one of the conditions of the shahadah, al-wala wal bara
Hmm well last friday i was listening a beautiful recitation of the battle of Uhud. And one of the shaheeds was a Jew, who didn't say shahada, or offer one rakat of prayer or changed the "religion" on their name tag.
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justahumane
02-21-2009, 08:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
believing in islam also means rejection of taghoot and all false idiologies, anyone who claims another way of life is a kaffir by their actions and speech no matter what they feel is in their heart.

this is the meaning of imaan, what is in the heart, what is confirmed on the tongue and what is shown through actions.

anyone who has hindu on their id is a kaffir and there is nothing wrong with saying so, rejection of disbelief is part of our imaan, one of the conditions of the shahadah, al-wala wal bara
Oh really brother? Thanks for enlightening me about what Islam is all about according to U. But I m not going to buy ur idea and waste even a single penny of thought. Thanks anyways, and feel free to call me a kafir, whenever u wish. Difference of opinion shouldnt stop U to use religiously correct words. Peace.
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Malaikah
02-21-2009, 08:51 AM
Non-Muslims are generally referred to as kuffar (pl) in Islam. This is common knowlegde. It really isn't as big a deal as you guys are making it to seem.
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justahumane
02-21-2009, 08:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Non-Muslims are generally referred to as kuffar (pl) in Islam. This is common knowlegde. It really isn't as big a deal as you guys are making it to seem.
I dont mind or feel bad when called a kafir, but nothing can stop me to thank the believer whenever he or she calls me a kafir. Its simple.
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Pomak
02-21-2009, 09:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Non-Muslims are generally referred to as kuffar (pl) in Islam. This is common knowlegde. It really isn't as big a deal as you guys are making it to seem.
Not really, there is actually another word that is a closer translation of non muslim(which the prophet used).

I'll dig it out IA
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doorster
02-21-2009, 10:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
I feel inclined to agree with the hindu. I know at least one hindu who believes in monotheism and Muhammad's prophethood.
yet he is still a Hindu? hm.... and this is where we part company (real Hindu is not on tawhid (oneness of Allah) but oneness of universe (everything is or can be god or can be united with god)
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Non-Muslims are generally referred to as kuffar (pl) in Islam. This is common knowlegde. It really isn't as big a deal as you guys are making it to seem.
wrong! refutation @ http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...n-muslims.html
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

i would suggest you start a different thread if gets too long a discussion, but i have heard the arguments against not calling non-muslims kuffar and disagree with them,

Allah calls them kuffar, the prophet muhammad (saws) used this term also when referring to them, as have all the scholars down through the ages.
wrong! refutation @ http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...n-muslims.html
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Suomipoika
02-21-2009, 09:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
but the Daily Fail is a right-wing newspaper with a habit of distorting stories to make them more shocking.
Which is why I also went and posted the links for civitas research. While they say its small ammount, there is some "intresting" material there. Such as the following:

‘TV reports [show]… ugly massacres by the US and British invasion forces. This is a disgrace, God help our Muslim people in Iraq be victorious over the infidels… God destroy them all.

A former teacher at al‐Noor school, Ilford, Abu Hasnayn Murtaza Khan, is hostile to Jews and Christians with equal vigour. On Audio CDs, such as Return to the Quran by Knowledge Books, he said: ‘Those whom the wrath of Allah is upon, is the Jews, is the Christians.’ He continued: ‘We have become Jews in our clothing, Jews in our eating, Jews in everything that we do, and the other half is Christian in everything we do. Muslims are following one of these accursed nations. And people are still not waking up to understand the fact that these people are enemies towards us.’
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Suomipoika
02-21-2009, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Non-Muslims are generally referred to as kuffar (pl) in Islam. This is common knowlegde. It really isn't as big a deal as you guys are making it to seem.
Unfortunately that word is also quite regularly used as a racist slur, which is what is making it slowly a big deal. Similar to what has happened to the word negro/neger etc.
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doorster
02-21-2009, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Which is why I also went and posted the links for civitas research. While they say its small ammount, there is some "intresting" material there. Such as the following:

‘TV reports [show]… ugly massacres by the US and British invasion forces. This is a disgrace, God help our Muslim people in Iraq be victorious over the infidels… God destroy them all.

A former teacher at al‐Noor school, Ilford, Abu Hasnayn Murtaza Khan, is hostile to Jews and Christians with equal vigour. On Audio CDs, such as Return to the Quran by Knowledge Books, he said: ‘Those whom the wrath of Allah is upon, is the Jews, is the Christians.’ He continued: ‘We have become Jews in our clothing, Jews in our eating, Jews in everything that we do, and the other half is Christian in everything we do. Muslims are following one of these accursed nations. And people are still not waking up to understand the fact that these people are enemies towards us.’
would you like LI to form a vigilante gang and go string him up or can we leave it with law enforcement agencies of the UK government to sort it out:confused:
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Suomipoika
02-21-2009, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
would you like LI to form a vigilante gang and go string him up or can we leave it with law enforcement agencies of the UK government to sort it out:confused:
No, I would like to see similar reaction from muslims as we see from example from finns. Condemnation of racism towards different kind of people than us. So far Ive only seen Khatami (the former Iranian president) speaking against stereotypia and racism towards westeners. But please, correct me if I am wrong.
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doorster
02-21-2009, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Unfortunately that word is also quite regularly used as a racist slur, which is what is making it slowly a big deal. Similar to what has happened to the word negro/neger etc.
yes that is the truth, but the post you quoted is not and an attempt to refute it was made @ http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1101851 which you chose to ignore since it will not suite your agenda
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Uthman
02-21-2009, 10:56 PM
I have seen Civitas described somewhere as a "right-wing think tank". Is there any truth to this? I'm not making any particular point, just asking.
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doorster
02-21-2009, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I have seen Civitas described somewhere as a "right-wing think tank". Is there any truth to this? I'm not making any particular point, just asking.
it is another national front by another name
Institute for the Study of Civil Society (Civitas) is a right-wing think-tank which distributes pamphlets opposing immigration and asylum
literate older brothers of skinheads
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Suomipoika
02-21-2009, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
it is national front by another nameliterate older brothers of skinheads
Where did you find that?
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doorster
02-21-2009, 11:24 PM
if you are not one of them, you can go to their website and read the tripe

or if you are British (in Britain), sooner or later a leaflet will drop through you letterbox, which will tell you their aims.

or if you are one of them you already know what you are!
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Suomipoika
02-22-2009, 12:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I have seen Civitas described somewhere as a "right-wing think tank". Is there any truth to this? I'm not making any particular point, just asking.
After reading their site some, they seem to lean to the right but I wouldnt call them national front.
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Muezzin
02-23-2009, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Some Islamic schools are promoting fundamentalist views and encouraging children to despise Western society, a report warns.

An investigation by the Civitas social policy think-tank found websites of some of the UK’s 166 Muslim schools are spreading extreme teachings, while a handful had links to sites promoting jihad, or holy war.

Examples include web forums forbidding Muslims from reading Harry Potter books, playing chess or cricket and listening to Western music.
This equates to making children hate the West?

Look what I found on Google. ZOMG, certain Chrisitans do not like Harry Potter, therefore they hate The West TM!

Chess is a really tangled issue Islamically, but to say forbidding people to participate in it equates to making them despise The West TM is also a specious argument.

Music is similarly tangled, and to say telling kids not to listen to it makes them despise the West is entirely the wrong conclusion. The right (i.e. more sane) conclusions might be more along the lines of saying this amounts to social exclusion of sorts, as opposed to assuming such things breed hatred.

Cricket? I have never heard of that being forbidden. Those teachers must not be from an Indo-Pakistani background.

Examples include the website of the Madani Girls’ School in East London which stated: ‘Our children are exposed to a culture that is in opposition with almost everything Islam stands for.

‘If we oppose the lifestyle of the West then it does not seem sensible that the teachers and the system which represents that lifestyle should educate our children.’

The report claims this ‘bruising comment’ gives children a ‘negative picture of Western life’.
Similar sentiments are the reason for the existence all faith schools. If Civitas, or the hacks at the Daily Mail, had an ounce of integrity as to this particular matter, they would have realised that their target is not Islamic schools, but faith schools as a whole.
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Yanal
02-23-2009, 03:14 PM
My sister goes to BCMA and nothing but music is banned.
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Uthman
03-09-2009, 07:32 PM
Ofsted checks on school extremism

Ofsted inspectors are to check that schools are promoting tolerance for other cultures, in a survey of independent faith schools in England.

The education watchdog has been asked to examine the spiritual and cultural ethos being taught.

Last month, a think tank claimed some Muslim schools were allowing pupils to be influenced by extremist values.

Schools Secretary Ed Balls said schools must prepare pupils for "life in wider British society".

The Association of Muslim Schools has welcomed the announcement.

"As Muslim schools we believe that we are at the forefront of preparing children and young people to face the challenges of life in modern Britain and to also contribute in a positive way to wider society," said a statement from the association.

'Ethos and values'


The report from think tank Civitas, called Music, Chess and other Sins: Segregation, Integration, and Muslim Schools in Britain, claimed that some Muslim schools were allowing extremist views to be promoted.

The Association of Muslim Schools had attacked that report as "divisive and dishonest".

Mr Balls has now asked Ofsted to carry out a survey in a small number of independent faith schools to investigate how they support the "spiritual, moral, social and cultural development of pupils".

"Some concerns have been raised recently about practice in a small minority of independent faith schools and whether they are effectively preparing pupils for life in wider British society," said Mr Balls.

The survey will consider the "ethos and values" of the schools and the influences on pupils through the curriculum, activities outside lessons and links with other organisations.

A large majority of Muslim schools are within the independent sector - although there are plans for an expansion of Muslim schools within the state sector.

The survey will look at a sample of schools from different faith groups.
In 2005 the then chief inspector of schools, David Bell, sparked a row when he said that independent Muslim schools must make greater efforts to show pupils a "common heritage".

Source (BBC News)
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AntiKarateKid
03-09-2009, 10:35 PM
Hmm didnt know you had to go to a Muslim school to despise aspects of the west.

I guess I went to a madrasah without knowing it! :eek:



And yet despite them "hating the west"


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/opinion/14bergen.html


Even the New York times debunks the madrasah myth of terrorism.
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aamirsaab
03-09-2009, 10:52 PM
:sl:
Erm, pardon me but what exactly is the problem?

The school in question is:
* Not state funded (NOT FUNDED BY THE GOVERNMENT)
* A religious school (legally allowed by the government)
* Questionable websites (which have apparently closed down so I cannot view them to verify the passages of text. In light of this information coming from a somewhat unreliable news source, I cannot exactly take it on face value, but at the same time I don't have much to go on in the first place...)

But, even if that last one is true, what exactly is the point being made? Some kids are taught to HATE and even hurt people of different ethnicities - I don't see Civitas flaunting that!

No, I am not saying teaching kids to hate the west is any better (I think ithat's stupid anyway). Just pointing out a little factoid. I mean, in light of such wonderful freedoms of speech etc, I don't see why civitas is getting in a hissy fit about this (especially if those comments on the websites were indeed true) or why any champions of freedom of speech are getting their chuddies in a twist.

It is a privately owned and funded Islamic school - which, if you aren't muslim, you probably are not going to send your kids to anyway. So what problem do you have in how a privately owned and funded school (which you are not even a stakeholder in!) functions?

If you're arguing the case of biting the hand that feeds, then yeah I'll give you that one but otherwise, I don't see what you are getting at. Unless you are referring to indoctrination, in which case I could be here all day!
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Trollomore
03-11-2009, 08:46 PM
Whether a report is from the Daily Mail, the Sun, the BBC, or any other media, it should not be taken as exact fact as they're trying to sell their product and so will make small lies to increase sales. Page 3 of the Sun is proof enough; sure her boobies look nice but they could be photoshopped!

However, neither should we condemn the report outright because of it.
Surely a school promoting violence cannot be a good thing in any way and needs to be investigated.

Just as an observation, it intrigues me that you can say that it's up the school what is being said when it's in a non-muslim country but if the roles were reversed I wouldn't be suprised to see something burning and placards promoting the beheading of such and such <GENERIC>This is not in anyway intended to be insulting, offensive or otherwise.</GENERIC>

Before anyone steps in anyway, I'd like to make this point clear:

Muslim protests seem to be more violent then most, burning effigies etc.
That seems to be the 'zeitgeist' of Muslim protests it seems, and so it has to be accepted that people outside of your spectrum see it extremely threatening and over the top.
If someone can show me protests where such things have not occurred then I'll gladly accept that, that sometimes happens.
Just a list of violent things I've seen in combination during such protests:

Placards promoting the beheading or some kind of GBH towards another.
Something burning. (Muslims love to burn something in relation to the protest, though I do admit it is fun :D )
Material covering the face of protesters. (Admittedly this is done with groups like Anonymous as well so it's not such a big deal)
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Azy
03-11-2009, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
So what problem do you have in how a privately owned and funded school (which you are not even a stakeholder in!) functions?
So it would be perfectly acceptable for your local rednecks to start a school with a white uniform and matching hood?
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Dawud_uk
03-12-2009, 06:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trollomore
Whether a report is from the Daily Mail, the Sun, the BBC, or any other media, it should not be taken as exact fact as they're trying to sell their product and so will make small lies to increase sales. Page 3 of the Sun is proof enough; sure her boobies look nice but they could be photoshopped!

However, neither should we condemn the report outright because of it.
Surely a school promoting violence cannot be a good thing in any way and needs to be investigated.

Just as an observation, it intrigues me that you can say that it's up the school what is being said when it's in a non-muslim country but if the roles were reversed I wouldn't be suprised to see something burning and placards promoting the beheading of such and such <GENERIC>This is not in anyway intended to be insulting, offensive or otherwise.</GENERIC>

Before anyone steps in anyway, I'd like to make this point clear:

Muslim protests seem to be more violent then most, burning effigies etc.
That seems to be the 'zeitgeist' of Muslim protests it seems, and so it has to be accepted that people outside of your spectrum see it extremely threatening and over the top.
If someone can show me protests where such things have not occurred then I'll gladly accept that, that sometimes happens.
Just a list of violent things I've seen in combination during such protests:

Placards promoting the beheading or some kind of GBH towards another.
Something burning. (Muslims love to burn something in relation to the protest, though I do admit it is fun :D )
Material covering the face of protesters. (Admittedly this is done with groups like Anonymous as well so it's not such a big deal)


if you want to stop the promotion of violence in schools then stop the army from holding recruitment days and cadet branches in secondary schools, which they do all over the uk.
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جوري
03-12-2009, 06:48 AM
lol.. what a hilarious thread.. they hate us, let's bully them into loving us. we here by sentence you to a seven month sentence of Harry potter marathon followed by a graduation ceremony at hoo terrrs

oh God what a hoot
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aamirsaab
03-12-2009, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
So it would be perfectly acceptable for your local rednecks to start a school with a white uniform and matching hood?
There's a difference between an Islamic (or religious) school and a KKK training camp.

If those Islamic schools were teaching their kids how to arm an Ak-47 or brandish a sword, and come in with matching military khakis, then I'd agree with your point.

As is, the allegations were being made at those schools' websites (which have since been taken down). In your example, I'd actually have evidence of questionable teachings.

I understand what you are getting at though. I agree that there should be a level of responsibility the school has (otherwise, it might as well be considered a training camp!), but unless those kids are actively being indoctrinated to hate the west (i.e being taught how to ''fight kuffar'') then I don't see any problem. The allegations were made against their websites which have now been closed down. There shouldn't be any problem then, surely?
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Azy
03-12-2009, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
The allegations were made against their websites which have now been closed down. There shouldn't be any problem then, surely?
I don't know.
Should we all feel comfortable that the problem has gone away because we can no longer see it?
The website itself is not the problem, it is the people and ideas behind it.
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
but unless those kids are actively being indoctrinated to hate the west (i.e being taught how to ''fight kuffar'') then I don't see any problem.
I'm unsure where I stand on this point.

Hypothetically speaking if they were being taught such things I doubt closing the schools would make much difference, it could quite easily move to private residences and become a free speech issue. (Not sure what the legal stance is on that)

Even if we're not talking about explicit teaching of hatred for the UK, as Dawud_uk said in another thread about policing, Islam places limits on the associations between Muslim and kuffar.
"Take from among them no friends, protectors or helpers" is, I think, the line he quoted.

If you were to take that seriously I don't see how you could justify living in the UK. You pay taxes to the government to fund the NHS, social services and police force (whether muslims are among the staff or not). Should all Muslims outright refuse police protection, medical assistance, state benefits and state education from kuffar while at the same time preventing Muslims entering government service as they would be implementing laws that are not Shari'a? Not even entering into friendship with non-Muslims?

Think about that for a second from the point of view of the people running this country. You have a group living within your community that do not respect your laws, intend to stay segregated and hate everything you stand for.
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Muezzin
03-12-2009, 03:06 PM
Azy, if you're intellectually honest, you'll come to the conclusion that issues like this are at the root of all faith schools, not just Muslim ones.

The study in question is far-right agitation intended to breed hatred for Muslims, as opposed to an anxious government trying desperately to quell an insurrection. Also, your claims about what was or was not being taught at those schools is conjecture. Therefore, your point about thinking about it from the point of view of the people running the country is moot. It was not a Government study to begin with. Of course, if paranoia is your game, play on. I love calling shenanigans.

I await the results of Ofsted's review though.
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aamirsaab
03-12-2009, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I don't know.
Should we all feel comfortable that the problem has gone away because we can no longer see it?
The website itself is not the problem, it is the people and ideas behind it.
Fair point. I guess for me I'd need to have some more evidence (everyone is different tho)

Think about that for a second from the point of view of the people running this country. You have a group living within your community that do not respect your laws, intend to stay segregated and hate everything you stand for.
Oh I agree with you on that. Biting the hand that feeds is indeed very silly.
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Azy
03-12-2009, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Azy, if you're intellectually honest, you'll come to the conclusion that issues like this are at the root of all faith schools, not just Muslim ones.
As you say, but this report, thread and forum are all about Muslims. :)
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
The study in question is far-right agitation intended to breed hatred for Muslims, as opposed to an anxious government trying desperately to quell an insurrection. Also, your claims about what was or was not being taught at those schools is conjecture.
The only claims or assumptions I made were that Islam was being taught, I barely looked at the report and didn't even consider it when writing my post.
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Suomipoika
03-12-2009, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
The study in question is far-right agitation intended to breed hatred for Muslims
What makes you say that? If I remember right the study seemed to emphasise that its small ammount of schools where the real problem is. What would be the correct way to criticise then without breeding hatred for muslims?
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Suomipoika
03-12-2009, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
It is a privately owned and funded Islamic school - which, if you aren't muslim, you probably are not going to send your kids to anyway. So what problem do you have in how a privately owned and funded school (which you are not even a stakeholder in!) functions?
I think it goes like "I think you have every right to say what you say, but I will condemn, ridicule and combat (with words) the stupid things they say and teach". If they teach hate, no matter how much it is indoors it should be condemned openly and wide.
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Muezzin
03-13-2009, 10:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
As you say, but this report, thread and forum are all about Muslims. :)
You're still isolating Muslim schools when you really should be criticising faith schools as a whole, but okey-doke.

The only claims or assumptions I made were that Islam was being taught, I barely looked at the report and didn't even consider it when writing my post.
Well, frankly, that goes to show your prejudice. Your claims were not 'Islam is being taught', your claims were in effect 'an extremist version of Islam is being taught that teaches children to hate the country' which were based more on your conjecture than on the facts.

Unless I have misunderstood you, in which case I do apologise.

format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
What makes you say that?
Read my first post of this thread. The things they count as 'breeding hatred' are ridiculous. It's entirely the wrong conclusion to draw. It is closer to the truth to say that perhaps this causes Muslim children to become socially excluded from non-Muslims, or contributes to this. There's a world of difference between social exclusion and actively teaching hate.

If I remember right the study seemed to emphasise that its small ammount of schools where the real problem is. What would be the correct way to criticise then without breeding hatred for muslims?
If Ofsted, the official regulator who is not some right-wing think tank like the organisation that carried out this report, comes to the same conclusion, I will believe Ofsted.
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Dawud_uk
03-13-2009, 10:42 AM
to be honest with the non-muslims and moderates here, i hate this country and its kufr values and have every intention of passing that onto my kids when i home school them.

but it is precisely because so called islamic schools dont teach al wala wal bara and other important concepts of the deen like kufr bit taghoot and the concepts of imaan being in actions and speech as well as in the heart that i wont send my children there to be misguided.

we should love what Allah loves, and have emnity towards what he has emnity towards, when it comes to britain and its championing of the shirk of democracy and the filth of liberalism then that emnity reaches the level of hatred, especially when this nation is involved in a war against the muslims and islam as a whole system.
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Azy
03-13-2009, 11:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Well, frankly, that goes to show your prejudice. Your claims were not 'Islam is being taught', your claims were in effect 'an extremist version of Islam is being taught that teaches children to hate the country' which were based more on your conjecture than on the facts.
I'd be grateful if you'd point out what it is about my post that made you think that.

Is Dawud's interpretation of 5:51 an unusual or extremist one?

Muezzin, I realise I haven't really addressed your concern fully, I will do that shortly but right now I need to go out for an hour, I'll post on the 'hate' issue when I return.
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Dawud_uk
03-13-2009, 11:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I'd be grateful if you'd point out what it is about my post that made you think that.

Is Dawud's interpretation of 5:51 an unusual or extremist one?

Muezzin, I realise I haven't really addressed your concern fully, I will do that shortly but right now I need to go out for an hour, I'll post on the 'hate' issue when I return.
that verse of the Quran is related but not what i would use as primary evidence for al wala wal bara.

There is a good example for you in Ibrahim and those with him when they told their people: Surely, we disassociate ourselves from you and all that you worship beside Allah. We have done with you. And there has arisen between us and you enmity and hate forever until you believe in Allah Alone.
Quran 60:4

there are other proofs also, whole books written on this concept of al wala bal wara, our emnity can reach the level of hatred but doesnt always, depending on the circumstances of the individual or the group that is being addressed.

O you who believe! Whoever of you becomes a rebel against his deen, (know that in his place) Allah will bring a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers, harsh towards the disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah and not fearing the blame of any blamer.
Quran 5:54
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Dawud_uk
03-13-2009, 11:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
And brother I too have total rejection for ur habit of deciding other's faith, but it proves ur point that definetely I m not same as U, and I thank ALLAH for that. My religion and faith doesnt allow me to speak more after the coming full stop, at least in this post.
alhamdulillah we agree upon something, we are not the same, your faith and mine are not the same.
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Muezzin
03-13-2009, 02:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I'd be grateful if you'd point out what it is about my post that made you think that.

Is Dawud's interpretation of 5:51 an unusual or extremist one?
That's the post.

It seemed more like your interpretation of his interpretation if you see where I'm going. I've always been taught that that particular teaching means not to take non-Muslims as very close friends or protectors, as opposed to never being friends with any non-Muslims, ever.

If it's just a big misunderstanding, which it looks like, I probably have egg on my face. Again. Oh well.

Muezzin, I realise I haven't really addressed your concern fully, I will do that shortly but right now I need to go out for an hour, I'll post on the 'hate' issue when I return.
Okay.
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Foxhole
03-13-2009, 03:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
to be honest with the non-muslims and moderates here, i hate this country and its kufr values and have every intention of passing that onto my kids when i home school them.
This reminds me of a joke my brother told me years ago ...

"That movie was so bad I walked out on it three times ..."

You hate the UK, yet you plan to stay, have children, and teach them to hate it, too?

Do your blood pressure a favor ... emigrate.
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AntiKarateKid
03-13-2009, 03:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
This reminds me of a joke my brother told me years ago ...

"That movie was so bad I walked out on it three times ..."

You hate the UK, yet you plan to stay, have children, and teach them to hate it, too?

Do your blood pressure a favor ... emigrate.

Kufr values have permeated every nation on earth to one extent or another. It isnt that easy to just up and go.



On a sidenote I find it amusing that your name is foxhole and your and atheist.... lol
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Azy
03-13-2009, 04:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
It seemed more like your interpretation of his interpretation if you see where I'm going. I've always been taught that that particular teaching means not to take non-Muslims as very close friends or protectors, as opposed to never being friends with any non-Muslims, ever.
Ended up going significantly farther afield than anticipated, but it seems like it's given Dawud time to fill out the post with some more quotes.

Hate I admit is a pretty strong word. Dislike and occassionally disgust are probably better but then everyone has a different opinion.

I suppose I'm struggling to see what there is to like about the UK from a Muslim's point of view, Islam is a whole way of life and is practically as far from the 'native' way of life as it could be. How would you describe the feelings among the Ummah for our way of life?

Your interpretation of 60:4 would also be appreciated.

(I had intended this post to be good. Oh well.)
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Suomipoika
03-13-2009, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Read my first post of this thread. The things they count as 'breeding hatred' are ridiculous. It's entirely the wrong conclusion to draw. It is closer to the truth to say that perhaps this causes Muslim children to become socially excluded from non-Muslims, or contributes to this. There's a world of difference between social exclusion and actively teaching hate.
Actually Civitas didnt count those things as breeding hate. I guess it teaches me to not use Daily Mail as source.

Ironically thats along the lines what Civitas said about these cases, that it creates a ghetto mentality that will make it difficult for them to function in British society.

This is what they count as hate for example:
In a small number of cases, Denis MacEoin has found evidence of links between Muslim schools and those advocating jihad, for example in the case of Feversham College, Bradford of which the website links to islamworld.net, that contains a section of papers on jihad. In one of these papers, Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, writes: 'Jihad is an obligation from Allah on every Muslim... [Jihad] involves all possible efforts that are necessary to dismantle the power of the enemies of Islam including beating them, plundering their wealth, destroying their places of worship and smashing their idols... Today, my brother, the Muslims as you know are forced to be subservient before others and are ruled by disbelievers... Hence in this situation it becomes the duty of each and every Muslim to make jihad... Therefore prepare for jihad and be the lovers of death.' (p.99). Themina Ahmed, the creator of the history curriculum for the two Islamic Shaksiyah Foundation schools, in Slough and Haringey, North London, has written: 'The world will witness the death of the criminal capitalist nation of America and all other [infidel] states when the army of jihad is unleashed upon them.'

If Ofsted, the official regulator who is not some right-wing think tank like the organisation that carried out this report, comes to the same conclusion, I will believe Ofsted.
The question however wasnt if you believe them, but what is the correct way to criticise without breeding hatred towards muslims.
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Dawud_uk
03-13-2009, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
This reminds me of a joke my brother told me years ago ...

"That movie was so bad I walked out on it three times ..."

You hate the UK, yet you plan to stay, have children, and teach them to hate it, too?

Do your blood pressure a favor ... emigrate.
check the blog, i'm going as soon as i'm able
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Uthman
03-13-2009, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i'm going as soon as i'm able
Me too.
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Muezzin
03-16-2009, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Ended up going significantly farther afield than anticipated, but it seems like it's given Dawud time to fill out the post with some more quotes.

Hate I admit is a pretty strong word. Dislike and occassionally disgust are probably better but then everyone has a different opinion.

I suppose I'm struggling to see what there is to like about the UK from a Muslim's point of view, Islam is a whole way of life and is practically as far from the 'native' way of life as it could be. How would you describe the feelings among the Ummah for our way of life?

Your interpretation of 60:4 would also be appreciated.

(I had intended this post to be good. Oh well.)
To be fair (and to completely sidestep your question - at least I'm honest :p) that's a subject for another thread.

It's also way too subjective for me to answer without making a pig's ear of everything, giving you the wrong idea, and doing a disservice to Muslims in Britain.

format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Actually Civitas didnt count those things as breeding hate. I guess it teaches me to not use Daily Mail as source.
It also teaches me not to jump to conclusions.

Ironically thats along the lines what Civitas said about these cases, that it creates a ghetto mentality that will make it difficult for them to function in British society.
That is perhaps closer to the truth, in my opinion.

This is what they count as hate for example:
In a small number of cases, Denis MacEoin has found evidence of links between Muslim schools and those advocating jihad, for example in the case of Feversham College, Bradford of which the website links to islamworld.net, that contains a section of papers on jihad. In one of these papers, Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, writes: 'Jihad is an obligation from Allah on every Muslim... [Jihad] involves all possible efforts that are necessary to dismantle the power of the enemies of Islam including beating them, plundering their wealth, destroying their places of worship and smashing their idols... Today, my brother, the Muslims as you know are forced to be subservient before others and are ruled by disbelievers... Hence in this situation it becomes the duty of each and every Muslim to make jihad... Therefore prepare for jihad and be the lovers of death.' (p.99). Themina Ahmed, the creator of the history curriculum for the two Islamic Shaksiyah Foundation schools, in Slough and Haringey, North London, has written: 'The world will witness the death of the criminal capitalist nation of America and all other [infidel] states when the army of jihad is unleashed upon them.'
Hmm... So, the website contains a link to another website, which, amongst other things, contains articles about jihad? I see the point they're trying to make, but again, to me, it's not evidence that the school 'teaches' hate. To me, it looks more like sloppy screening - did the web staff not check the content of the sites they were linking to? That sort of thing.

What Civitas seems to be implying is that the school knew exactly what they were linking to, yadda yadda. To get to the truth of that matter, you'd have to interview the headteacher, the people responsible for the website etc.

The question however wasnt if you believe them, but what is the correct way to criticise without breeding hatred towards muslims.
Well, criticism free of sensationalism and hyperbole would be a start.
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Suomipoika
03-16-2009, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Hmm... So, the website contains a link to another website, which, amongst other things, contains articles about jihad? I see the point they're trying to make, but again, to me, it's not evidence that the school 'teaches' hate. To me, it looks more like sloppy screening - did the web staff not check the content of the sites they were linking to? That sort of thing.

What Civitas seems to be implying is that the school knew exactly what they were linking to, yadda yadda. To get to the truth of that matter, you'd have to interview the headteacher, the people responsible for the website etc.
Something I feel pointing out that if a school ever linked to a site with similar hate material towards non-whites and non-mainstream in here, heads would be rolling by the dozens in the following hunt for the guilty ones by the local authorities. Maybe its different for the UK.

You also missed the last sentence about Themina Ahmed. Can you imagine the outrage if someone who spoke like that about non-whites and non-mainstream was behind history curriculum in schools?

But there is actually hole chapter in the study about hate and muslim schools, which among other things, underlines that the hate cases were in minority.
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Muezzin
03-16-2009, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Something I feel pointing out that if a school ever linked to a site with similar hate material towards non-whites and non-mainstream in here, heads would be rolling by the dozens in the following hunt for the guilty ones by the local authorities. Maybe its different for the UK.
Fair point.

Still, I'd tend to pin it on faulty screening. But that's me.

You also missed the last sentence about Themina Ahmed.
So I did.

Can you imagine the outrage if someone who spoke like that about non-whites and non-mainstream was behind history curriculum in schools?
Yes. Ofsted will have something to say about this, whether the teacher is Muslim or not.

But there is actually hole chapter in the study about hate and muslim schools, which among other things, underlines that the hate cases were in minority.
Do you have a link to the study? I've probably missed it in the thread.
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Suomipoika
03-16-2009, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Do you have a link to the study? I've probably missed it in the thread.
They were in first post, but here again.

First one is their press release, second is the study itself.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcs87.php
http://www.civicsociety.co.uk/MusicC...ins17Feb09.pdf
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czgibson
03-16-2009, 10:35 PM
Greetings,

Themina Ahmed, the creator of the history curriculum for the two Islamic Shaksiyah Foundation schools, in Slough and Haringey, North London, has written: 'The world will witness the death of the criminal capitalist nation of America and all other [infidel] states when the army of jihad is unleashed upon them.'
How charming. :hmm:

No-one who talks like that should be allowed anywhere near the education system.

Peace
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Whatsthepoint
03-16-2009, 10:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



How charming. :hmm:

No-one who talks like that should be allowed anywhere near the education system.

Peace
Shoudn't be allowed in the country, if you ask me.:raging:
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The_Prince
03-16-2009, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Shoudn't be allowed in the country, if you ask me.:raging:
why not? its a taste of your medicine, you make the angry face when your own countries are constantly doing the very same thing your so mad against, how many goverments have your peaceful democratic countries over-thrown? i mean if thats not a hypocrite then i really dont know what it is.
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Whatsthepoint
03-16-2009, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
why not? its a taste of your medicine, you make the angry face when your own countries are constantly doing the very same thing your so mad against, how many goverments have your peaceful democratic countries over-thrown? i mean if thats not a hypocrite then i really dont know what it is.
For one last time, I do not and never have supported overthrowing anyone let alone by means of war.
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AntiKarateKid
03-17-2009, 01:04 AM
Themina Ahmed, the creator of the history curriculum for the two Islamic Shaksiyah Foundation schools, in Slough and Haringey, North London, has written: 'The world will witness the destruction of the communist nation of the USSR and all other [tyranical] states when the forces of liberty are unleashed upon them.'


Themina Ahmed, the creator of the history curriculum for the two Islamic Shaksiyah Foundation schools, in Slough and Haringey, North London, has written: 'The world will witness the demise of the repressive dictatorship of Iraq and all other [tyrant] states when the forces of democracy are unleashed upon them.'





See what I did there??? Isnt that what America has done throughout the ages? I was too lazy to do Iran but don't worry, give it a year and you'll hear it from our government themselves.


You don't like the rhetoric because it is directed against you. Guess how people like the Iranians and etc feel? Oh wait... the secular government of America can say this but come a religious guy and OMGZOR he iz NUTZ!@# :rollseyes
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czgibson
03-17-2009, 01:15 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
You don't like the rhetoric because it is directed against you.

1. It's not directed at me.


2. I don't like it because it's thuggish, ignorant and deeply unhelpful. Anyone in charge of children's education ought to know better.


3. Themina Ahmed is a woman.


Peace
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AntiKarateKid
03-17-2009, 01:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



1. It's not directed at me.


2. I don't like it because it's thuggish, ignorant and deeply unhelpful. Anyone in charge of children's education ought to know better.


Peace
Granted it is blunt. But how is it thuggish?

Unless you assume that the phrase "armies of jihad" is necessarily militaristic.

But I dont think I need to remind anyone here that "jihad" means struggle and consists, among other things, of scholarly refuting the core beliefs of the enemy, thus destroying it and its ideology.
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The_Prince
03-17-2009, 06:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
For one last time, I do not and never have supported overthrowing anyone let alone by means of war.
thats what you all say, but then we see you out on the streets celebrating and giving parades for the soldiers who take part in these illegal wars, i mean who the hell are you bloody trying to kid here???? oh yes im against the war, but im gonna treat the ones who do the war as heroes! its the soldiers who are holding the guns, driving the humvees, the tanks, the jets, its them who are shooting, bombing, torturing, abusing, they are the ones causing the carnage, so unless you guys are willing to condemn the soldiers, then you are also part of the problem, you can say you dont support the war, but sorry, supporting the terrorists who wage the war is supporting the war, theres no difference.
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czgibson
03-17-2009, 08:15 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
thats what you all say, but then we see you out on the streets celebrating and giving parades for the soldiers who take part in these illegal wars, i mean who the hell are you bloody trying to kid here???? oh yes im against the war, but im gonna treat the ones who do the war as heroes! its the soldiers who are holding the guns, driving the humvees, the tanks, the jets, its them who are shooting, bombing, torturing, abusing, they are the ones causing the carnage, so unless you guys are willing to condemn the soldiers, then you are also part of the problem, you can say you dont support the war, but sorry, supporting the terrorists who wage the war is supporting the war, theres no difference.
Supporting the soldiers is very different from supporting the war. If you're so literal-minded as to be unable to see that, that's your issue and nobody else's.

Were you one of the morons protesting in Luton last week, by any chance?

Peace
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Suomipoika
03-17-2009, 10:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Granted it is blunt. But how is it thuggish?

Unless you assume that the phrase "armies of jihad" is necessarily militaristic.

But I dont think I need to remind anyone here that "jihad" means struggle and consists, among other things, of scholarly refuting the core beliefs of the enemy, thus destroying it and its ideology.
Yes, she surely meant scholarly refuting. :rollseyes
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_Rida_
03-17-2009, 10:29 AM
Examples include web forums forbidding Muslims from reading Harry Potter books, playing chess or cricket and listening to Western music.
Western music and somehow even chess, I understand. But Harry Potter and cricket? What’s wrong with that?
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AntiKarateKid
03-17-2009, 11:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Yes, she surely meant scholarly refuting. :rollseyes
Prove that she meant a militaristic attack.
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Suomipoika
03-17-2009, 01:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Prove that she meant a militaristic attack.
Its absolutely amazing how far some people are willing to whitewash the sayings of nutjobs as long as they feel some sort of ideological connection. I also marvel at how someone who supposedly speaks in a scholarly refuting manner manages to miss any and all implications towards that peaceful scholarly refuting manner but army and death find their way into the speech.

There really is a certain point of naivety Im not willing to cross.
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justahumane
03-17-2009, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
alhamdulillah we agree upon something, we are not the same, your faith and mine are not the same.
Absolutely, I believe in ALLAH the merciful, loving and kind, and I believe that he expects us to be kind and loving to his creations, no place for hatred, but alas U seems to differ. Will pray for U, may ALLAH show U the right path AMEEN.
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Dawud_uk
03-17-2009, 03:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Supporting the soldiers is very different from supporting the war. If you're so literal-minded as to be unable to see that, that's your issue and nobody else's.

Were you one of the morons protesting in Luton last week, by any chance?

Peace
your soldiers are dogs and prostitutes, worse than this in fact. they are either fighting for money and career and are worse than prostitutes who do less bad things for money,

or they are fighting for nationalism, a sick disgusting concept and making them just like the nazis in their motivation.
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Dawud_uk
03-17-2009, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Absolutely, I believe in ALLAH the merciful, loving and kind, and I believe that he expects us to be kind and loving to his creations, no place for hatred, but alas U seems to differ. Will pray for U, may ALLAH show U the right path AMEEN.
Allah tells us in the Quran to hate, to have bara with the disbelievers, if you truly believe in the Quran and in Allah then you should love and hate only for his sake.

(as well as removing the hindu name tag you keep as part of your profile as Allah tells us only Islam is acceptable to him).
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AntiKarateKid
03-17-2009, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Themina Ahmed, the creator of the history curriculum for the two Islamic Shaksiyah Foundation schools, in Slough and Haringey, North London, has written: 'The world will witness the destruction of the communist nation of the USSR and all other [tyranical] states when the forces of liberty are unleashed upon them.'


Themina Ahmed, the creator of the history curriculum for the two Islamic Shaksiyah Foundation schools, in Slough and Haringey, North London, has written: 'The world will witness the demise of the repressive dictatorship of Iraq and all other [tyrant] states when the forces of democracy are unleashed upon them.'





See what I did there??? Isnt that what America has done throughout the ages? I was too lazy to do Iran but don't worry, give it a year and you'll hear it from our government themselves.


You don't like the rhetoric because it is directed against you. Guess how people like the Iranians and etc feel? Oh wait... the secular government of America can say this but come a religious guy and OMGZOR he iz NUTZ!@# :rollseyes


Really.. nutjobs huh?

It really is the same thing as what our government says. Just switch around a few phrases with generous servings of the words "liberty and democracy" to smooth it over.

Are you so mypic that you can't see this very behavior in the national governments of the world and yet when an idividual says it, theyre nutjobs?
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AntiKarateKid
03-17-2009, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Allah tells us in the Quran to hate, to have bara with the disbelievers, if you truly believe in the Quran and in Allah then you should love and hate only for his sake.

(as well as removing the hindu name tag you keep as part of your profile as Allah tells us only Islam is acceptable to him).


Well just to clarfy your point brother ( I sense you are slightly angry while writing this), Allah exhorts us to love good deeds and hate bad deeds. To love the truth and hate the false.

But in order to carry this out, we cannot violently bash heads witht he disbelievers. Calling them to the truth is not a painful or insulting this. It is a open minded process meant to help them attain success in this and the next life.
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AntiKarateKid
03-17-2009, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Its absolutely amazing how far some people are willing to whitewash the sayings of nutjobs as long as they feel some sort of ideological connection. I also marvel at how someone who supposedly speaks in a scholarly refuting manner manages to miss any and all implications towards that peaceful scholarly refuting manner but army and death find their way into the speech.

There really is a certain point of naivety Im not willing to cross.
I marvel at your sidestepping abilities and sarcastic humor?
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Uthman
03-17-2009, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Were you one of the morons protesting in Luton last week, by any chance
Regarding that, here is a GMTV clip from youtube featuring Anjem Choudary who I think led the protest. It was...interesting to hear what he had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzI9G...eature=related
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czgibson
03-17-2009, 07:41 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Regarding that, here is a GMTV clip from youtube featuring Anjem Choudary who I think led the protest. It was...interesting to hear what he had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzI9G...eature=related
They're right at the end - it was definitely good of him to go on and present his side of the story.

But: here we have a guy who seems allergic to answering questions. He could easily get a job as a politician. :)

Not many people dispute his well-made case against the Iraq war and the atrocities that have been committed by some forces, but the point is this:

Soldiers don't start wars - politicians do. If you object to the Iraq war policy, it is the government that you need to take your grievance to, not the poor grunts who have to carry out their orders whether they agree with them or not.

If he really does believe that by protesting in this way he was never going to stir up tension, then he is not even as insightful as the members of the Westboro Baptist Church in America, who picket soldiers' funerals thanking god for their deaths, and who at least realise that they're going to cause tension.

Peace
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Uthman
03-17-2009, 08:01 PM
Greetings czgibson,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Not many people dispute his well-made case against the Iraq war and the atrocities that have been committed by some forces, but the point is this:

Soldiers don't start wars - politicians do. If you object to the Iraq war policy, it is the government that you need to take your grievance to, not the poor grunts who have to carry out their orders whether they agree with them or not.
I completely agree with you, but what did you make of his argument which compared these soldiers to those who carried out the orders of the government under Nazi Germany?

In any case, it seems (and he admitted that) the reasoning behind them protesting in this way was to generate maximum publicity. While their anger is probably justified, some of the things that they were shouting and the placards that they were holding were clearly contrary to the teachings and the spirit of Islam.

As a sidenote, protests are actually banned outside parliament square, which would probably otherwise be the ideal place if you wanted to protest to the politicians and generate lots of publicity at the same time.

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
If he really does believe that by protesting in this way he was never going to stir up tension, then he is not even as insightful as the members of the Westboro Baptist Church in America, who picket soldiers' funerals thanking god for their deaths, and who at least realise that they're going to cause tension.
That's quite shocking.

Regards
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Whatsthepoint
03-17-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
thats what you all say, but then we see you out on the streets celebrating and giving parades for the soldiers who take part in these illegal wars, i mean who the hell are you bloody trying to kid here???? oh yes im against the war, but im gonna treat the ones who do the war as heroes! its the soldiers who are holding the guns, driving the humvees, the tanks, the jets, its them who are shooting, bombing, torturing, abusing, they are the ones causing the carnage, so unless you guys are willing to condemn the soldiers, then you are also part of the problem, you can say you dont support the war, but sorry, supporting the terrorists who wage the war is supporting the war, theres no difference.
You don't even know where I live for crying out loud!
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Whatsthepoint
03-17-2009, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by _Rida_
Western music and somehow even chess, I understand. But Harry Potter and cricket? What’s wrong with that?
Why chess? I thought the modern form of chess was developed in the Muslim world.
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Suomipoika
03-17-2009, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I marvel at your sidestepping abilities and sarcastic humor?
Good for you. In the meantime Ill quote the message of scholarly refuting again:

'The world will witness the death of the criminal capitalist nation of America and all other [infidel] states when the army of jihad is unleashed upon them.'
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AntiKarateKid
03-18-2009, 02:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Good for you. In the meantime Ill quote the message of scholarly refuting again:

'The world will witness the death of the criminal capitalist nation of America and all other [infidel] states when the army of jihad is unleashed upon them.'
See my post which you still have not responded to. Change a few words around and you get what such "nations" like America always say. Yet... only that individual is nutz right?
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Dawud_uk
03-18-2009, 05:42 AM
lets get over a few mis-conceptions here regarding the soldiers in the british army,

they are doing their job as i see it for one of three reasons, each is disgusting and hated in the eyes of islam.

1. they do it for money and career, like i said before, such people are worse than prostitutes, who only have sex for money, soldiers kill, murder and maim for their theirs.

2. they do it for nationalism, which is the same reasoning as the nazis, 'for the further and fatherland' is no difference to queen and country.

3. they actually believe in all this imposing of democracy and liberal secularism brain washing crap and so they are totally ideologically opposed to the muslims and are our enemies just like the politicians.

now do they have a choice to fight as some keep saying?

YES, they do in fact. they had a choice when joining up, even now when about to be sent to afghanistan or iraq they could turn around and say 'you know what, stuff you and your lies, i'm not going.' they'd have to leave the army and might do a few months prison time but this is better than killing.

so they have a choice, their motivation is evil, and in islam, imaan means belief, actions and speech and we judge on the apparent and have al-wala wal-bara based on the apparent.

so i hate the soldiers for the sake of Allah, Allah tells us we should have bara with the kuffar, now that can mean some distance so we dont take them as our close friends but can still be friendly, but when it reaches those who are fighting the beleivers then it is open hatred, hatred for the sake of Allah.
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justahumane
03-18-2009, 06:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Allah tells us in the Quran to hate, to have bara with the disbelievers, if you truly believe in the Quran and in Allah then you should love and hate only for his sake.

(as well as removing the hindu name tag you keep as part of your profile as Allah tells us only Islam is acceptable to him).

Well brother, I wont take my lessons of religion by someone who I consider not guided even. But thanks for ur advice anyways, I m sure that U have suggested me something out of ur own mental makeup. But coz its almost agreed upon that we are not the same, so U go ur way and I will go mine, bear witness that I told U about love of ALLAH, minus any hatred.

Peace.
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justahumane
03-18-2009, 10:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Allah tells us in the Quran to hate, to have bara with the disbelievers, if you truly believe in the Quran and in Allah then you should love and hate only for his sake.

(as well as removing the hindu name tag you keep as part of your profile as Allah tells us only Islam is acceptable to him).

A brother has just suggested me that U doesnt seems to be what U pretend to be. I see some truth in his statement, and it gives me feeling that U are here not to spread Islamic teachings or remove misconceptions about Islam but to malign the religion rather with ur dogmatic interpretation. And spreading the sense of hatred inspite of love.

I request the mods to look into this angle, and do the needfull. If I m wrong than U can demand an apology from me with consant of mods and get this post deleted.

Peace.
Reply

Dawud_uk
03-18-2009, 10:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
A brother has just suggested me that U doesnt seems to be what U pretend to be. I see some truth in his statement, and it gives me feeling that U are here not to spread Islamic teachings or remove misconceptions about Islam but to malign the religion rather with ur dogmatic interpretation. And spreading the sense of hatred inspite of love.

I request the mods to look into this angle, and do the needfull. If I m wrong than U can demand an apology from me with consant of mods and get this post deleted.

Peace.
yeah that is fine, i am happy with them doing so as i know some of the brothers on here locally so it would be easy for them to varify to you that i am not some internet troll.

the brother wouldnt be the same one who sees those who side with the disbelievers in his home country as the good muslims whilst those who oppose them must all be spies and traitors?

he has made simular allegations in the past, but it is total rubbish as brothers who go to my local masjid will be able to varify.

you see sometimes people see things differently, the point is we are supposed to discuss matters based upon evidences, not result to petty insults and slanders behind peoples backs as some have been doing against me.

if you disagree, then bring your proof and put Quran and sunnah between us and let us discuss it from there.
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Dawud_uk
03-18-2009, 10:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Well brother, I wont take my lessons of religion by someone who I consider not guided even. But thanks for ur advice anyways, I m sure that U have suggested me something out of ur own mental makeup. But coz its almost agreed upon that we are not the same, so U go ur way and I will go mine, bear witness that I told U about love of ALLAH, minus any hatred.

Peace.
ok, it is good you are a believer in Allah, and i know you have said before you dont associate partners with him, unlike many others who share your religion of hinduism.

but do you believe the Quran is the true word of Allah? his revealed scripture to mankind to help guide them through this life and be successful in the next?
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justahumane
03-18-2009, 11:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
yeah that is fine, i am happy with them doing so as i know some of the brothers on here locally so it would be easy for them to varify to you that i am not some internet troll.

the brother wouldnt be the same one who sees those who side with the disbelievers in his home country as the good muslims whilst those who oppose them must all be spies and traitors?

he has made simular allegations in the past, but it is total rubbish as brothers who go to my local masjid will be able to varify.

you see sometimes people see things differently, the point is we are supposed to discuss matters based upon evidences, not result to petty insults and slanders behind peoples backs as some have been doing against me.


if you disagree, then bring your proof and put Quran and sunnah between us and let us discuss it from there.
Okay, it may be my mistake, but since this was told to me so I tought it better to clarify rather than keep confined. I m sorry for my words. forgive me.
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justahumane
03-18-2009, 11:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
ok, it is good you are a believer in Allah, and i know you have said before you dont associate partners with him, unlike many others who share your religion of hinduism.

but do you believe the Quran is the true word of Allah? his revealed scripture to mankind to help guide them through this life and be successful in the next?

Well brother, earlier I didnt use to believe holy quran to be words of ALLAH, and I discuessed this topic here too. But I must admit that after going a bit deep into it, I somehow believed that it is word of ALLAH. Still when I talk to some guys like U and am told that ALLAH wants us to kill or hate his own creations, I simply refuse to accept that. Now even if I will burn in hell till eternity for sake of loving humans and humanity, than I have no complains, but I simply deny the notion that ALLAH has anything to do with hatred. The end.

Peace.
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Whatsthepoint
03-18-2009, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
2. they do it for nationalism, which is the same reasoning as the nazis, 'for the further and fatherland' is no difference to queen and country.
So what is your view of the Palestinian struggle for independence?
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Amadeus85
03-18-2009, 02:13 PM
I have read recently that a group of extremist muslims have insulted brittish soldiers coming back from Iraq. Some real brittish people tried to kicked their asses, but brittish polices protected the beadred wackos from them and accused them of racism. What a situation, what a country, where soldiers are insulted on their own soil. Thats just another reason to doesnt allow muslim immigration to my country and instead greet Chinese,Vietnamese,Nepalese, whatever else. Some people just dont know how to behave as guests.
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AntiKarateKid
03-18-2009, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Well brother, earlier I didnt use to believe holy quran to be words of ALLAH, and I discuessed this topic here too. But I must admit that after going a bit deep into it, I somehow believed that it is word of ALLAH. Still when I talk to some guys like U and am told that ALLAH wants us to kill or hate his own creations, I simply refuse to accept that. Now even if I will burn in hell till eternity for sake of loving humans and humanity, than I have no complains, but I simply deny the notion that ALLAH has anything to do with hatred. The end.

Peace.
Listen. Allah tell us to love truth and hate falsehood. He tells us to treat out enemies like our friends. To restore relations with those who cut it off from us.
The only person worth disliking is the person Allah dislikes. Such people like the more murderous Meccan pagans who tried to hinder the Prophet pbuh's work, are worth shunning.

When judging what Allah wants us to do, look at the life of the Prophet pbuh and then see what the true Islamic character is!

If I may suggest a book, you should read "Muhammad: His life based ont he earliest sources" by martin Lings. It will inshallah open your eyes to what being a Muslim truly means.
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Uthman
03-18-2009, 06:25 PM
Greetings Aaron85,
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I have read recently that a group of extremist muslims have insulted brittish soldiers coming back from Iraq. Some real brittish people tried to kicked their asses, but brittish polices protected the beadred wackos from them and accused them of racism. What a situation, what a country, where soldiers are insulted on their own soil.
At the end of the day, the police were upholding the law. The protestors were exercising their legitimate right to protest. The "real British people" (as you refer to them) violated the law by throwing things at the protestors.

Is it the actual laws that you disagree with?

format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Thats just another reason to doesnt allow muslim immigration to my country and instead greet Chinese,Vietnamese,Nepalese, whatever else. Some people just dont know how to behave as guests.
The word 'guest' implies that this isn't truly their home. Would you also believe that to be true if the people are born in this country?

Regards
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Amadeus85
03-18-2009, 07:11 PM
[QUOTE=Osman;1112910]Greetings Aaron85,
At the end of the day, the police were upholding the law. The protestors were exercising their legitimate right to protest. The "real British people" (as you refer to them) violated the law by throwing things at the protestors.

Is it the actual laws that you disagree with?
I know that everything there wasnt against the law. But still I find it disgusting, and shocking that brittish soldiers are greeted with insults in their own home. In Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt I would understand, but this is UK right?

The word 'guest' implies that this isn't truly their home. Would you also believe that to be true if the people are born in this country?
Of course that I would believe that UK gave citizenship to people who insult their soldiers. As I said, what a situation! What a country! Where are people responsible for this situation.
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Yanal
03-18-2009, 07:16 PM
How is cricket and potter related forums linked with Jihad getting promoted?
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Suomipoika
03-18-2009, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
See my post which you still have not responded to. Change a few words around and you get what such "nations" like America always say. Yet... only that individual is nutz right?
There is nothing to challenge there. I think Reagan and Bush are/were nutters who did horrible damage to the world. Doesnt make her speech any less violent or bloodthirsty. She is just as crazy nutter than anyone wanting to destroy other countries. And you stood up for her and tried to explain what she might be meaning, while not even a hint of that peaceful insight ended up in her speech. That really is my objection how crazy it is that people will defend anyone and anything as long as they have some sort of ideological connection.

format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
The word 'guest' implies that this isn't truly their home. Would you also believe that to be true if the people are born in this country?

Regards
How do you accept someone who openly hates you and your values? Does it really make any difference for their child? Do you understand why some of us would feel like calling them quests if they or their children simply hate you and everything you stand for? And this somehow is accetable but hating back is racist and islamophobia and its not really phobia if self proclaimed muslims like Themina there want to destroy you. Many of these haters hide behind the name of Islam and this does not seem to really bother majority of muslims for some reason. Unless newspaper prints it, at which point its time to attack the evil western media for spreading lies. There just isnt any real self criticism among muslims and muslim communities in Europe. Im still waiting for a prominent muslim leader in Europe to condemn the racist stereotypia of fornicating "kuffar dog" westeners.
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Uthman
03-18-2009, 08:10 PM
Greetings Suomipoika,
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
How do you accept someone who openly hates you and your values? Does it really make any difference for their child? Do you understand why some of us would feel like calling them quests if they or their children simply hate you and everything you stand for? And this somehow is accetable but hating back is racist and islamophobia and its not really phobia if self proclaimed muslims like Themina there want to destroy you. Many of these haters hide behind the name of Islam and this does not seem to really bother majority of muslims for some reason. Unless newspaper prints it, at which point its time to attack the evil western media for spreading lies. There just isnt any real self criticism among muslims and muslim communities in Europe. Im still waiting for a prominent muslim leader in Europe to condemn the racist stereotypia of fornicating "kuffar dog" westeners.
I'm not sure whether you understand the context of my words which you quoted, but the reason that Aaron seemed to be calling the Luton protestors guests was not because "they or their children simply hate you and everything you stand for". My understanding is that he thinks of them as guests because they are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. From this, it would then follow that I am a guest in this country since my parents are immigrants from Mauritius. That I am considered a guest in the country in which I was born and in which I belong is an idea that I find both offensive and absurd. Of course, I may have misunderstood what Aaron meant or I may be reading too much into it and I sinerely hope that I am since it would be hypocritical to think of immigrants as guests but expect them to integrate into wider society at the same time.

Peace
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Suomipoika
03-18-2009, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings Suomipoika, I'm not sure whether you understand the context of my words which you quoted, but the reason that Aaron seemed to be calling the Luton protestors guests was not because "they or their children simply hate you and everything you stand for". My understanding is that he thinks of them as guests because they are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. From this, it would then follow that I am a guest in this country since my parents are immigrants from Mauritius. That I am considered a guest in the country in which I was born and in which I belong is an idea that I find both offensive and absurd. Of course, I may have misunderstood what Aaron meant or I may be reading too much into it and I sinerely hope that I am since it would be hypocritical to think of immigrants as guests but expect them to integrate into wider society at the same time as time.

Peace
He seemed quite open for everyone else. My point was does it make any difference if the parents and the child hate you just as enthuastically regardless where the child was born if they absolutely try not to be part of their new home? How do you accept something like that beyond anything else besides quests?
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Whatsthepoint
03-18-2009, 08:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
He seemed quite open for everyone else. My point was does it make any difference if the parents and the child hate you just as enthuastically regardless where the child was born if they absolutely try not to be part of their new home? How do you accept something like that beyond anything else besides quests?
British tourists.
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