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Uthman
02-20-2009, 02:34 PM
Divorced last year, 30-year-old Amina is slowly rebuilding her confidence.

During the 10 years of her marriage, the mother of three says her husband tried to force her to accept his taking another wife.

She resisted, even though he said that it was the right thing to do in Islam, their shared religion.

"There was tremendous amounts of pressure from him," she says.

"It drops your confidence - you feel worthless, unworthy of someone's companionship. A failure as a wife, a failure as a person."

Even though she said no, she still has no idea whether he married someone else without telling her.

Mission impossible


Polygamy is practised by many different cultures and religions including Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

The rules within Islam are strictly defined and make it virtually impossible for a man to take more than one wife. A man should only marry women who are divorced, widowed, ill or if his first wife cannot have children.

A husband has to treat each wife equally, down to the time, money and emotional support he gives them.

In this country one married man is allowed to marry one woman. That must be the way for everybody who lives in this country


Baroness Sayeda Warsi


Polygamy is illegal under UK law, but religious marriages are not registered and so are not legally valid - a man might marry his first wife in a civil ceremony and then marry someone else in a religious one.

There are no official figures on the number of people in polygamous marriages in Britain, but Zlakha Ahmed, a project manager of Apna Haq, a woman's support service based in Rotherham, says that the number of polygamous marriages is growing.

In her experience, it is younger British-born Muslim men who are the driving force for the increase in numbers.

She says that women under pressure to enter into polygamous relationships often do not have anyone to turn to for help and that this can lead to mental health problems.

Religious figures within the Muslim community are also concerned about the number of men practicing polygamy. Mufti Barkatullah, a member of a UK Sharia Council, says he sees over 20 cases every year of women experiencing polygamy-related problems.

"Islamic law is very clear that it has to be done in the context of fairness, justice and fulfilling the duties, and in a situation where there is a dire need," he says.

According to Mr Barkatullah, the rules are so strict that practicing polygamy is ''mission impossible'' in most cases.

The really positive point is that I know I have time for myself


Doha, wife in a polygamous marriage


"They end up violating Sharia law - committing gross inequality and injustices with their various spouses, neglecting their duties towards their dependents and committing forgery, hypocrisy and constant lies," he says.

According to Mufti Barkatullah, Imams are misled by men who do not admit to having other wives.

My co-wife


But some women say that if practiced according to the strict guidelines of Islam, polygamy can be a positive experience and the answer to many women's needs.

Doha, a 47-year-old who has been in a polygamous marriage for 15 years, was divorced with four children when she met her husband and agreed to be his second wife. Both wives know each other, but have separate houses and lives.

Her husband spends alternative nights with each of his wives, and is equal in his financial support - although he does not buy exactly the same luxuries for each wife.

"Maybe I would prefer to have books and my sister wife, my co-wife, would prefer to have a dress bought for her," says Doha.

"The really positive point is that I know I have time for myself. I know that if I want to work or study, to have friends come around or to visit people to go away on holiday that I can do that, I have that time in my life."

But for Baroness Sayeda Warsi, shadow minister for community cohesion, the loophole that allows multiple religious marriages is a legal anomaly that needs looking at.

"We have just avoided discussing or dealing with this matter head on," she says.

"There has to be a culture change. That culture change has to be brought about by policy makers taking a very clear stance on this issue.

"In this country one married man is allowed to marry one woman. That is the way and that must be the way for everybody who lives in this country."

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Uthman
02-20-2009, 09:49 PM
Comment by Brian Whitaker:

Warsi wades in

Is there a serious problem with polygamy in the UK, or is the Baroness's attack simply cultural point-scoring?

Following her attacks on the qat-chewing habits of Britain's Somali and Yemeni communities, Baroness Warsi – who represents the acceptable face of Islam in the Conservative party – has turned her attention to polygamy.

"In this country, one married man is allowed to marry one woman. And that must be the way for everyone who lives in this country," she says.

But why? Baroness Warsi doesn't explain.

Polygamous marriages can certainly result in the exploitation of women, though that can happen in ordinary marriages, too. If a man wants to have more than one wife, or a woman to have more than one husband, and everyone enters into the arrangement openly and voluntarily, what exactly is wrong with that?

A man can live with two women in Britain perfectly legally, but if he marries them both it's a crime punishable by up to seven years in jail. At least, it is a crime if they marry in Britain. If they all go abroad to a country where polygamy is legal, get married and then come back to Britain, there's no problem. The marriage(s) will be officially recognised.

Lady Warsi, the shadow minister for community cohesion, complains about a "failure" by policymakers to take the issue of polygamy seriously: "We've just avoided either discussing or dealing with this matter head on."

It's hard to see why she's getting so steamed up about it – except, of course, that it panders to the usual Tory line about "traditional" family values and "un-British" cultural practices.

In fact, alongside the tens of millions of one-husband-one-wife marriages, plus growing numbers of same-sex marriages, there are thought to be fewer than 1,000 polygamous marriages in Britain – so even if some people think it's a problem it certainly isn't a huge one.

The government is rather cagey about the issue but, short of breaking up polygamous marriages conducted legally abroad, it has no option but to recognise them. Naturally, these families are entitled to welfare benefits just like others – which opens the door for complaints from the "morally outraged" brigade that the government is subsidising polygamy.

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- Qatada -
02-20-2009, 10:28 PM
:salamext:


There's a famous story illustrating this subtle legal point (i.e. that a man can have as much girlfriends as he wants but he can't have more than one wife [with which he would have a responsibility of looking after her, providing for her etc])

...a man was confronted by the authorities in Algeria (it may have been Tunisia) because he had two wives (which was a crime)...so he answered, with regard to the second wife, 'she's just my girlfriend'. And so they left him alone
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S_87
02-21-2009, 09:29 PM
. A man should only marry women who are divorced, widowed, ill or if his first wife cannot have children.

what?

if ms warsi wants to tackle polygamy marriages maybe first she should ban both men and women having affairs outside their marriages, males and females having open relationships where neither of them are recognised legally and single women getting pregnant and raising kids alone...
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Uthman
02-22-2009, 01:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
. A man should only marry women who are divorced, widowed, ill or if his first wife cannot have children.

what?
Yeah, I don't remember hearing that anywhere. Where is that from?
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Snowflake
02-22-2009, 01:44 PM
A man should only marry women who are divorced, widowed, ill or if his first wife cannot have children.
A man can marry if he likes, two , three or four, according to the Quran (An Nisa: 3) without the reasons quoted above. This permissability is one of the virtues of Shariah and benefits men women at all times, especially when you consider that the number of women exceeds those of men and most of these sisters will not be widowed or divorced. So it is permissable for men to marry more than one wife regardless. The only condition is that he must treat them all fairly.
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Al-Zaara
02-22-2009, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
The only condition is that he must treat them all fairly.
The only and the most difficult condition one could possibly have in such a situation.
Here we have to define "fairness" for it won't fit every person's definition. Or every state's. Or every Muslim's. You get my drift.
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Mr. Baldy
02-22-2009, 03:15 PM
"Islamic law is very clear that it has to be done in the context of fairness, justice and fulfilling the duties, and in a situation where there is a dire need," he says.

According to Mr Barkatullah, the rules are so strict that practicing polygamy is ''mission impossible'' in most cases.


A dire need? Mission impossible? hmm...

"In this country one married man is allowed to marry one woman. That is the way and that must be the way for everybody who lives in this country."

But in this country we can have one wife and many girlfriends :D
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Caller الداعي
02-22-2009, 04:15 PM
:sl:
i think sayeda warsi should debate on more important issues than trying to touch Allahs law.
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KAding
02-22-2009, 04:31 PM
I have no real problem with polygamy, as long as it is all voluntary and as long as men and women are equal by law, so that one woman can also have several men.
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KAding
02-22-2009, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
"In this country one married man is allowed to marry one woman. That is the way and that must be the way for everybody who lives in this country."

But in this country we can have one wife and many girlfriends :D
Thats because marriage in our society isn't at all about sex, unlike in Islamic law. Marriage is first and foremost a legal contract that organizes the rights between two individuals. Of course it is obvious that you are not supposed to cheat on your partner, but I think that is implicit in any romantic relationship, regardless if it is between married people or not. Whether you can or cannot have extramarital sex is not part of the marriage contract. It might be part of the personal vows between two new-weds, but that is a personal matter, no different from the implicit or explicit vows between a girlfriend and boyfriend.

Besides, we need to be clear what we are talking about here. What one "can do" and what is the "norm" are of course different things. Of course one can have "one wife and many girlfriends", but that doesn't mean that that is the "norm". However you put it, it is not seen as acceptable behavior, even in the "decadent" West. Even in a country that completely implements Islamic law it would be possible to have "one wife and many girlfriends". It might not be legal (or would it be, thinking of concubines here?), but it is certainly something one "can do".
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-22-2009, 04:40 PM
peopel over-exagerate the difficulty of being fair IN MY HONEST OPINION

yes its a struggle, yes its difficult but its not impossible for every human being in this day and age.

if a father can raise 9 kids and keep his wife happy at the same time (common amongst many families) why cant he keep two wives happy?
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Mr. Baldy
02-22-2009, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Thats because marriage in our society isn't at all about sex, unlike in Islamic law. Marriage is first and foremost a legal contract that organizes the rights between two individuals. Of course it is obvious that you are not supposed to cheat on your partner, but I think that is implicit in any romantic relationship, regardless if it is between married people or not. Whether you can or cannot have extramarital sex is not part of the marriage contract. It might be part of the personal vows between two new-weds, but that is a personal matter, no different from the implicit or explicit vows between a girlfriend and boyfriend.
Since when was an marriage in Islam all about sex? A marriage in Islam is about companionship, family, deen, expanding and continuing the Ummah, and yes a halal sexual relationship between a Muslim man and woman. If your gonna make outrageous claims like that, please give a source.
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KAding
02-22-2009, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
Since when was an marriage in Islam all about sex? A marriage in Islam is about companionship, family, deen, expanding and continuing the Ummah, and yes a halal sexual relationship between a Muslim man and woman. If your gonna make outrageous claims like that, please give a source.
I think you are misreading me. I said "marriage in our society isn't at all about sex", not "marriage in Islam is all about sex"! Of course that isn't true!!!

In the West (my country at least) sex and marriage have been decoupled. It is normal to have premarital sex and relationships. Which why I said marriage here "isn't about sex". You don't get married as virgins and then consummate the marriage. While in Islam the two are clearly linked, one cannot normally have sex without a marriage! Of course people marry for a whole host of reasons, but at least sexual relationships can only exist inside marriage.

I hope it is clearer now, it was not at all a criticism of marriage as an institution in Islam.

The point I was trying to make is that your comment that "in this country we can have one wife and many girlfriends" has nothing to do with marriage. Legally it is equally true that "in this country we can have multiple girlfriends". Whether one is or isn't married isn't relevant. Legally cheating upon a girlfriend or wife isn't punishable, but morally it is frowned upon regardless if there is a marriage or not.
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Mr. Baldy
02-22-2009, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I think you are misreading me. I said "marriage in our society isn't at all about sex", not "marriage in Islam is all about sex"! Of course that isn't true!!!

In the West (my country at least) sex and marriage have been decoupled. It is normal to have premarital sex and relationships. Which why I said marriage here "isn't about sex". You don't get married as virgins and then consummate the marriage. While in Islam the two are clearly linked, one cannot normally have sex without a marriage! Of course people marry for a whole host of reasons, but at least sexual relationships can only exist inside marriage.

I hope it is clearer now, it was not at all a criticism of marriage as an institution in Islam.

The point I was trying to make is that your comment that "in this country we can have one wife and many girlfriends" has nothing to do with marriage. Legally it is equally true that "in this country we can have multiple girlfriends". Whether one is or isn't married isn't relevant. Legally cheating upon a girlfriend or wife isn't punishable, but morally it is frowned upon regardless if there is a marriage or not.
Well I'm sorry for misinterpreting your comment, and thank you for clearing that up for me.

My point regarding the 'we can have many girlfriends' is that it seems that 'Baroness' Warsi and co. seem to think that the problems in society regarding marital abuse originate from polygamy. While I agree that some abuse the right of a man to have four wives in Islam, these ideas do not originate from Islam, rather they originate from a western society which upholds certain corrupt ideas about relationships, i.e. many extra-marital partners are allowed, pre-marital sex is acceptable. These are the same ideas which lead to teenage pregnancies (the most recent case a 13 year old father!) widespread STD's, among other social ill's. You can outlaw polygamous marriages completley, this is not going to end abuse in marriages. The majority of domestic abuse cases involve a drunken and violent father, and these cases are in no way sensationalised by the media as the case of polygomous marriages are. I used the 'phrase' 'we can have many girlfriends' as an umbrella for all the corupt mentalities this society produces.
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Uthman
02-22-2009, 09:49 PM
Bear in mind that Baroness Warsi represents the Conservatives, a political party which emphasises and calls for traditional British family values.
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aamirsaab
02-23-2009, 09:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I have no real problem with polygamy, as long as it is all voluntary and as long as men and women are equal by law, so that one woman can also have several men.
You do realise that if a women needs to marry twice, it means the economy of that country as well as the men, are crap.

I mentioned this on another thread, polyandery has NO benefit to society or anyone. Why? because if the one man cannot support financially one wife, then there is something seriously wrong. Polyandery also leads to population stagnation.

Polygamy on the other hand occurs when the male can provide for more than one wife. Benefit to society is population growth. That is one of the reasons why Islam allows polygamy.

Now, you could argue that men aren't the only breadwinners in society anymore. This is true, but psychologically speaking, women are attracted to wealth because it means the husband can provide/look after for them. It's psychological - Islam understands that and works with it.
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Ummu Sufyaan
02-23-2009, 09:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I have no real problem with polygamy, as long as it is all voluntary and as long as men and women are equal by law, so that one woman can also have several men.
with all due respect, i find that extremely nauseating.
first, the men who practice that should be shot (not literally, figure of speech) as they do have a strong sense of male pride. i mean men compete with each other, innit. i know that the whole intermingling thingee is normal for some societies, but sheesh, even then i think most men would still be against their wifeys even looking at another dude in that way

and secondly, how is she going to know who the father of her baby is...
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KAding
02-23-2009, 01:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You do realise that if a women needs to marry twice, it means the economy of that country as well as the men, are crap.
This idea of the man supporting the wife is archaic from my point of view. The only thing that matters is that they as a collective (men and wife) can support their own household. I don't understand why this would imply the men or the economy are crap? Surely such a household would generally have more money to spend than a traditional marriage, not less?

Besides, for me this isn't about needs, it is about rights. If several consenting adults wish to share a household, their possesions and maybe even their bed than that is their business.

I mentioned this on another thread, polyandery has NO benefit to society or anyone. Why? because if the one man cannot support financially one wife, then there is something seriously wrong. Polyandery also leads to population stagnation.
Again, I'm not basing my position on what would be best for society, but what I think these individuals should be free to do. Even from the point of view of 'society', however, I think you are wrong. I'm not promoting a society based on just polyandry, I'm promoting a society in which monogamy, polygamy or polyandry can all exist together (hetrosexual or homosexual). I think it is a very safe bet that the overwhelming majority of marriages will end up being hetrosexual and monogamous, while a small minority will be either polygamous, polyandrous or homosexual. Seems to me that forbidding polyandry and yet allowing polygamy would be very much destabilizing? After all, it would result in more men being unable to find a partner, since more women will be tied up in polygamous relationships. If there is one thing that is "unhealthy" for society, it is large groups of sexually frustrated young men that can't find a partner ;).

Either way, IMHO it would be unacceptable for the state to disallow women to have multiple marriage partners, while men are allowed to do so. This would be discriminatory!

Polygamy on the other hand occurs when the male can provide for more than one wife. Benefit to society is population growth. That is one of the reasons why Islam allows polygamy.
Population growth is not at all a "benefit to society"! Where did you get that idea? 7 billion people seems plenty to me! The only countries that have high population growth are dirt poor! All we need is for the existing population to be replaced, which means about 2.1 children per woman . But again, if you allow both polyandry and polygamy you'd expect these two to pretty much even each other out. Polygamous families might produce more offspring and polyandrous less, taken together they probably won't be very different from normal monogamous families.

Now, you could argue that men aren't the only breadwinners in society anymore. This is true, but psychologically speaking, women are attracted to wealth because it means the husband can provide/look after for them. It's psychological - Islam understands that and works with it.
In the end it is just about love, not about being "attracted to wealth" IMHO. This just doesn't sound like a very compelling argument against polyandry? Surely if women are "attracted to wealth" they would be interested in an polyandrous marriage since that would mean the wealth of several men can be used to satisfy that psychological craving? Why doesn't Islam "work with that" knowledge?

Regardless, in the end we are IMHO just talking about a fundamental right of every individual (man or woman) to organize their life as they see fit. If all adults in a group accept the legal consequences of a marriage and have no issues with sharing a bed, than I just don't see why anyone should deny them that right, let alone me! Especially not based on these thin and unconvincing arguments.
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KAding
02-23-2009, 01:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
with all due respect, i find that extremely nauseating.
first, the men who practice that should be shot as they do have a strong sense of male pride.
Err. With all due respect, but this is ridiculous. Male pride? This male pride should make it impossible to share a partner supposedly? I am sorry, but I don't think it makes any sense to base my moral code on superficial, unreasonable and bestial emotions of "pride" and "honor". If some people aren't so superficial and greedy to want to own their partner only for themselves, then all the more power to them! If they can extend their love to all members of the family, then all the more power to them!

I am not sure if I could do it, but if some people wish to do so and therefore want to start a polyandrous or polygamous relationship, then I have no issues with that. It isn't my business anyway.

i mean men compete with each other, innit. i know that the whole intermingling thingee is normal for some societies, but sheesh, even then i think most men would still be against their wifeys even looking at another dude in that way
Well, a majority of men probably work that way, yes. But that masculine and macho behavior is nothing to be proud of! And it is not a good argument to allow others who are less jealously-inclined and more enlightened to organize their life in another way if they wish to do so.

and secondly, how is she going to know who the father of her baby is...
Well, from my view a polyandrous marriage becomes one collective, one household, so it shouldn't really matter. Maybe after a divorce or some conflict you can do a DNA test to figure it out, if you really insist.
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Muezzin
02-23-2009, 03:11 PM
I've made my own personal stance on polygamy clear: It ain't for me, and unless you happen to be the next best thing to the Prophet (SAW), it probably ain't for you either. But hey, more power to you if you want double the stress. :p

On the other hand, I also believe in loyalty. I don't know if that particular social construct I labour under is a 'superficial, unreasonable and bestial emotion' as coined by my learned friend Mr KAding, but hey, it's kinda nice. The point is, if some people can't control their urges, I'd rather they married multiple spouses than commit adultery.

Of course, you couple this with my above scepticism of polygamy in the vast majority of cases, and you come to this conclusion:

Only marry the person you are really willing to loyally spend the rest of your life with.

If you can't decide, don't marry in the first place. Better that than to make the biggest mistake of your entire life, along with a boatload of other unfaithful or abusive partners and divorcees.

...And don't have kids unless you're a stable enough team to raise them.
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Al-Zaara
02-23-2009, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
...
Basically, that's the way I argument aswell. For the most part I agree with you. Of course for my own self it is not religiously or according to my morals allowed.
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nocturne
02-23-2009, 03:38 PM
As an muslim man, i am uncomfortable with the idea of having more than one wife.

I do see the need for men to have more than one wife especially in the times of Prophet, when they were plenty of slaves and widowed women. The times have changed today, in today's context outside the arab society, it is still a taboo to have more than one wife.

How many of you are comfortable with having more than one partner?
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Uthman
02-23-2009, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nocturne
How many of you are comfortable with having more than one partner?
Certainly not me! Not that I'm thinking about marriage at this stage anyway.

In addition to the previous points made, I would point out that most women in this day and age would probably not be happy to share their husband with another woman whereas that was not necessarily the case at the time of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa-sallam).
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Ummu Sufyaan
02-24-2009, 08:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Err. With all due respect, but this is ridiculous. Male pride? This male pride should make it impossible to share a partner supposedly? I am sorry, but I don't think it makes any sense to base my moral code on superficial, unreasonable and bestial emotions of "pride" and "honor".
yeah thats was a bad word for it i admit. i didnt mean the type of pride that people choose to have, i meant the type of pride that is naturally inherent...i.e when this pride is threaded i guess, he'll be naturally on the defensive. i don't see what so wrong with that?


Well, a majority of men probably work that way, yes. But that masculine and macho behavior is nothing to be proud of!
why not? its only natural to feel jealous that his wife is looking at another girl. his defense stems from what is naturally inherent in him, as mentioned above... i dont get what so wring with that.


Maybe after a divorce or some conflict you can do a DNA test to figure it out if y,ou really insist.
why should that all happen when simpler and more practice methods are available....and also, what's the kid gna say when people ask him/her who their dad is..."one of those men" :rolleyes:
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Mr. Baldy
02-24-2009, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I have no real problem with polygamy, as long as it is all voluntary and as long as men and women are equal by law, so that one woman can also have several men.
I don't know if anyones touched on this, but there is a ver fundemental flaw. Men are naturally the dominant sex. One woman with two men are the ingredients for trouble. Who will be the head of the family? A family needs a head to keep everyone in check, and if the two men get into a fight, how will the woman cope and break it up? Anyway you look at it, it just can't work!
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Green_shoes
02-27-2009, 12:49 AM
To be honest i dont trust men much so i wouldn't trust them with more than one Wife
i certainly wouldnt want a husband who wants another wife, no thanks
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Al-Zaara
02-27-2009, 07:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
I don't know if anyones touched on this, but there is a ver fundemental flaw. Men are naturally the dominant sex. One woman with two men are the ingredients for trouble. Who will be the head of the family? A family needs a head to keep everyone in check, and if the two men get into a fight, how will the woman cope and break it up? Anyway you look at it, it just can't work!
Fundamental? Not quite. According to many scientists there have been civilizations that had been some forms of gyneocentric and for example in old African tribes the women or mothers tended to be the dominant sex.

It's usually the other way around said; two women are the ingredients for trouble in a relationship. :D
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MinAhlilHadeeth
02-27-2009, 01:05 PM
^ According to Islaam sis, the husband is the head of the household. :) So yes, I would say it is quite fundamental, at least to Muslims.

الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.)..."
[an-Nisaa: 34]

Ibn Katheer says, "The man is in charge (qayyim) of the woman, i.e. he is the one in-charge of her, her chief, the one having authority over her and the one who corrects her if she inclines away from that which is correct."
[Tafseerul-Qur'aanil-'Adheem (1/194)]

The Messenger of Allaah (salAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, "Every soul from the children of Aadam is a master; so the man is the master of his family, and the woman is the mistress of her household."
[Saheeh al-Jaami' as-Sagheer]

Allaah Knows best.
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Ummu Sufyaan
02-27-2009, 01:17 PM
:sl:
^ ukhtee, could you please expand on that.... i mean in which way is he the head of the house hold...just in the sense of finance, or :? cos read the following (from ibn katheer also)
We, the people of Quraysh, used to have authority over our women. But when we came to live with the Ansar, we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women.
so ummm could there be 2 sides of the coin :)
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MinAhlilHadeeth
02-27-2009, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
:sl:
^ ukhtee, could you please expand on that.... i mean in which way is he the head of the house hold...just in the sense of finance, or :? cos read the following (from ibn katheer also)

so ummm could there be 2 sides of the coin :)
Well, I can't expand on it, as I do not have the knowledge to do so. But this is how Ibn Katheer interpreted a similar ayah:

وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ

" ...but men have a degree over them (i.e. women)..."
[al-Baqarah: 228]

Ibn Katheer said, "Meaning: in excellence; in the nature given to them; in manners; in status; in the obedience due to them; in their spending and taking care of the (women's) welfare..."
[Tafseerul-Qur'aanil-'Adheem (1/271)]


And how other 'Ulamaa have interpreted the earlier ayah:

'Abdur-Rahmaan as-Sa'dee said, "That is due to the excellence of men over women, and the eminence which they have been given over them. So the pre-eminence which they have been given over the women is from many aspects: holding positions of leadership and authority is particular to men, likewise Prophethood and Messengership. They are also particularised by many acts of worship such as jihaad, the eids and Jum'ah prayers... Likewise tehy are particularised with having to spend upon their wives, and indeed spending in many ways which are particular to the men - which distinguish them from women. So perhaps this is the reason for His saying: وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ "...due to the wealth that they spend..." - and exactly what they spend is not stated to indicate the spending referred to is general. So from all this it is known that the man is liek a governer and master of his wife, and she is with him like a captive. So his role is to take care of that which Allaah has placed him in-charge of, and her role is to be obedient to her Lord and to obey her husband."
[Tayseerul-Kareemir-Rahmaan (1/344)]

Al-Qaasimee said, "الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء 'The men have authority (qawwaamoon) over women' - qawwaamoon is the plural of qawwaam. Qawwaam is the one who is responsible for taking care of their welfare, managing their affairs and disciplining them. That is, they are in-charge of and are to take care of their manners and behaviour of women; ordering them and forbidding them, just as the ruler is resonsible for his subjects. This is due to two reasons: (i) Due to the nature which Allaah gave them, and (ii) due to the role which they carry out.

The first is indicated by the Saying of Allaah:

بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ
"Due to the excellence which Allaah has given to the man over the woman."
[an-Nisaa': 34]

This refers to the relation between the men and women, and means that the men have a position of dominance over them due to the superiority which Allaah has given to the men over the women."
[Mahaasinut-Ta'weel (abridged) (5/130)]
Reply

Intisar
02-27-2009, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Fundamental? Not quite. According to many scientists there have been civilizations that had been some forms of gyneocentric and for example in old African tribes the women or mothers tended to be the dominant sex.

It's usually the other way around said; two women are the ingredients for trouble in a relationship. :D
:sl: You're right, in Western African tribes (some even Muslim subhanAllaah) the men would adorn themselves in make-up and paint and stand in a long line where the woman would choose the husband, possibly more than one if she wanted.

She was the head of the household, and she would call on her husband to do the manly duties (gather the fire wood, hunt, gather etc.) basically ordering him around and then she'd go on with the womanly duties (cooking, cleaning, taking cares of the kids etc.). So yes, in some cultures the roles are actually reversed and the females are the dominant sex but it's not completely devoid of what the natural roles of the sexes are.

But like Faizah said, in Islam the man is the head of household.
Reply

Al-Zaara
02-27-2009, 06:07 PM
I didn't speak for Islam, but from a more non-religious view. Islam is also what the Shariah and hadiths say, meaning you will always find Arabic/Middle Eastern culture in it. So there are cultural differences that lean the whole religion to one side. And then there is God who sets the rules, which religious people of course follow.


Doesn't mean there is a 'universal' "fundamental flaw", if one religion says it, for example.
Religious people of course follow, but the non religious do not. So to find a argument against it (polyganeous marriages) without religion or cultural bounds seems to be difficult.
Reply

youngsister
02-27-2009, 06:40 PM
:sl:

How expensive would it be to treat them fairly, you would have to earn quite a bit of money, and i am not talking about anything under 30k if you live in the UK of course.

Some men need to start looking after their wife and actually provide like they are meant to before running to get another one.

However if you cant control yourself and feel you will fail into fitnah and she is ok with it then subxnallah you do have the option.
Reply

YusufNoor
03-01-2009, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
:sl:
^ ukhtee, could you please expand on that.... i mean in which way is he the head of the house hold...just in the sense of finance, or :? cos read the following (from ibn katheer also)

We, the people of Quraysh, used to have authority over our women. But when we came to live with the Ansar, we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women.

so ummm could there be 2 sides of the coin :)
:sl:

forgive my belated response to this, but i knew as soon as i saw it that some clarification was needed. i knew the hadeeth, but not it's location, but i have indeed found it [it is a HUGE piece of the Seerah, which contributes to understanding both the Qur'an and the Shariah]. and in fact, Quran was revealed about part of this incident; from Muslim Book 009, Number 3511: :

Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) reported. I had always been anxious to ask 'Umar (Allah be pleased with him) about the two ladies amongst the wives of Allah's Prophet (may peace be upon Lim) about whom Allah, the Exalted, said:" If you both turn in repentance to Allah, then indeed your hearts are inclined (to this)" (Ixvi. 4), until 'Umar (Allah be pleased with him) set out for Hajj and I also went along with him. And as we were going along a path, 'Umar (Allah be pleased with hiyn) went aside and I also went aside with him with a jug (of water). He answered the call of nature, and then came to me and I poured water over his hands and he performed ablution I said: Commander of the Faithful, who are the two ladies amongst the wives of Allah's Prophet (may peace be upon him) about whom Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, said: 'If you both turn to Allah in repentance, then indeed your heart are inclined to it"? 'Umar (Allah he pleased with him) said: How strange is it for you, Ibn 'Abbas! (Zuhri said: By Allah, he disliked what he asked about, but did not keep it a secret.) He ('Umar) said: They are Hafsa and 'A'isha; and he then began to narrate the hadith and said: We were such people among the Quraish who dominated women, and as we reached Medina we found there people who were dominated by their women, and our women began to learn (the habits) of their women. He further said: And my house was situated in the suburb of Aledina in the tribe of Banu Umayya b. Zaid. One day I became angry with my wife and she retorted upon me. I did not like that she should retort upon me. She said: You disapprove of my retorting upon you By Allah, the wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) retort upon him, and one of them detaches herself from him for the day until the night. So I ('Umar) went out and visited Hafsa and said: Do you retort upon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? She said: Yes. I said; Does any one of you detach herself from him from the day to the night? She said: Yes. He said: She who did like it amongst you in fact failed and incurred loss. Does everyone amongst you not fear the wrath of Allah upon her due to the wrath of His Messenger (may peace be upon him), and (as a result thereof) she may perish? So do not retort upon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and do not ask him for anything, but ask me that which you desire, (and the frank behaviour) of your companion may not mislead you, if she is more graceful and is dearer to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) than you (meaning 'A'isha) (Allah be pleased with her).

He (Hadrat 'Umar further) said: I had a compalaion from the Ansar and, we used to remain in the company of the Messenger (may peace be upon him) turn by turn. He remained there for a day while I remained there on the other day, and he brought me the news about the revelation and other (matter), and I brought him (the news) like this. And we discussed that the Ghassanids were shoeing the horses in order to attack us. Id y companion once attended (the Apostle). and then came to me at night and knocked at my door and called me, and I came out to him, and he said: A matter of great importance has happened. I said: What is that? Have the Ghassanids come? He said: No, but even more serious and more significant than that: the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) has divorced his wives. I said: Hafsa has failed and has incurred loss. and I feared that it would happen. When it was dawn I observed the dawn prayer and dressed myself, and then came there (in the house of the Holy Prophet) and visited Hafsa, and she was weeping. I said: Has Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) divorced you (all)? She said: I do not know. He has, however, separated himself in his attic. I came to a black servant and said to him: Seek permission for 'Umar. He went in and then came to me and said: I made mention of you to him, but he kept quiet. I then went to the pulpit and sat there, and there was a group of people sitting by it and some of then were weeping. I sat there for some time, until I was overpowered (by that very idea) which was in my mind. I then came back to the boy and said to him: Seek permission for Umar. He went in and came to me and said: I made mention of you to him but he kept quiet. I was about to turn back when the boy called me and said: Go in; permission has been granted to you. I went in and greeted Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and he was reclining against the couch of mat and it had left its marks upon his side. I said: Messenger of Allah, have you divorced your wives? He raised his head towards me and said: No. I said: Allah is the Greatest. Messenger of Allah, I wish if you had seen how we the people of Quraish had domination over women but when we came to Medina we found people whom their women dominated. So our women began to learn from their women. One day I became angry with my wife and she began to retort upon me. I did not approve that she should retort upon me. She said: You do not like that I should retort upon you, but, by Allah. the wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) retort upon him and any one of them separates herself from him for a day until night. I said: He who did that amongst them in fact failed and incurred loss. Does any of them feel sate from the wrath of Allahupon her due to the wrath of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and she has certainly perished. Allah's Messtnger (may peace be upon him) smiled, I said: Messenger of Allah, I visited Hafsa and said: (The behaviour) of your companion ('A'isha) may not mislead you, If she is more graceful than you and is dearer to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) than you.

Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled for the second time. I said: Allah's Messenger, way I talk to you about agreeable things? He said: Yes. I sat down and lifted my head (to see things) in the house and, by Allah, I did not see anything significant besides three hides. I said: Messenger of Allah, supplicate the Lord that He should make (life) prosperous for your Ummah as He has made plentiful for the people of Persia and Rome (in spite of the fact) that they do no, worship Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, whereupon he (Allah's Messenger) sat up an I then said: Ibn Khattab, do you doubt that they are a nation whom their nice things have been given immediately in the life of this world. I said: Allah's Messenger! seek pardon for me. And he (Allah's Messenger) had taken an oath that he would not visit them for a month due to extreme annoyance with them until Allah showed His displeasure to him (Allah's Messenger). Zuhri said: 'Urwa informed me that 'A'Isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: When twenty-nine nights were over, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) visited me, and he began (his visit) with me. I said: Messenger of Allah, you had taken an oath that you would not visit us for a month, while you have visited after I have counted only twenty-nine (nights). Thereupon he said: The month may also be of twenty-nine (days). He then said: 'A'isha, I am going to talk to you about a matter, and you should not be hasty in it (and do not give your final decision) until you have consulted your parents. He then recited this verse to me:" O Prophet, say to your wives" till he reached" mighty reward" (xxxiii. 28). 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: By Allah, he knew that my parents would not allow me to separate from him. I said: Is there any need to consult my parents in this matter? I in fact choose Allah and His Messenger (may peace be upon him) and the abode in the Hereafter. Ma'mar said: Ayyub reported to me that 'A'isha said: Don't inform your wives that I have chosen you, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Verily Allah has sent me as a conveyer of message, and He has not sent me as a source of hardship (to others). Qatada said:" Saghat qulubukum" means" Your hearts have inclined."


so we see that the learned behavior was NOT acceptable and DID cause Rasulullah, Salla Allahu Alaihe wa Salaam, to separate himself from his wives for a whole month! AND after such separation, all of the Prophet's wives, even Aisha(RA), the his most beloved wife was given the option of divorce.

quoting youngsister:

How expensive would it be to treat them fairly, you would have to earn quite a bit of money, and i am not talking about anything under 30k if you live in the UK of course.

and it means NOT having a 2nd (or 3rd) wife who is on welfare and having the government support her instead of yourself!

Some men need to start looking after their wife and actually provide like they are meant to before running to get another one.

Allahu Akbar!

However if you cant control yourself and feel you will fail into fitnah and she is ok with it then subxnallah you do have the option.

MashAllah, little sister is wise indeed!
i like the way that Maulana Imran Hosein pust it:

if you take a 2nd wife, you give up "your bed" forever and you must now alternate days between each wife. and whatever problems you may have had with the 1st, expect them to be doubled when you have 2 wives!

:sl:
Reply

symori
03-01-2009, 10:18 PM
that is why polygamy is only for those who is capable,in and out to handle 2 wives or more.nobody claim polygamy is easy. Even monogamous marriage receive bad feedback from modern couples with bundles of divorce cases...
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