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Uthman
02-23-2009, 07:18 PM



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The Muslim population in Britain has grown by more than 500,000 to 2.4 million in just four years, according to official research collated for The Times.

The population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society, the research by the Office for National Statistics reveals. In the same period the number of Christians in the country fell by more than 2 million.

Experts said that the increase was attributable to immigration, a higher birthrate and conversions to Islam during the period of 2004-2008, when the data was gathered. They said that it also suggested a growing willingness among believers to describe themselves as Muslims because the western reaction to war and terrorism had strengthened their sense of identity.

Muslim leaders have welcomed the growing population of their communities as academics highlighted the implications for British society, integration and government resources.

David Coleman, Professor of Demography at Oxford University, said: “The implications are very substantial. Some of the Muslim population, by no means all of them, are the least socially and economically integrated of any in the United Kingdom ... and the one most associated with political dissatisfaction. You can't assume that just because the numbers are increasing that all will increase, but it will be one of several reasonable suppositions that might arise.”

Professor Coleman said that Muslims would naturally reap collective benefits from the increase in population. “In the growth of any population ... [its] voice is regarded as being stronger in terms of formulating policy, not least because we live in a democracy where most people in most religious groups and most racial groups have votes. That necessarily means their opinions have to be taken and attention to be paid to them.”

There are more than 42.6 million Christians in Britain, according to the Office for National Statistics, whose figures were obtained through the quarterly Labour Force Survey of around 53,000 homes. But while the biggest Christian population is among over-70s bracket, for Muslims it is the under-4s.

Ceri Peach, Professor of Social Geography at Manchester University, said that the rapid growth of the Muslim population posed challenges for society. “The groups with the strongest belief in the family and cohesion are those such as the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. They have got extremely strong family values but it goes together with the sort of honour society and other kinds of attributes which people object to,” he said. “So you are dealing with a pretty complex situation.”

Professor Peach said that the high number of Muslims under the age of 4 — 301,000 as of September last year — would benefit Britain's future labour market through taxes that would subsequently contribute to sustaining the country's ageing population. He added, though, that it would also put pressure on housing and create a growing demand for schools. “I think housing has traditionally been a difficulty because the country is simultaneously short of labour and short of housing. So if you get people to fill vacancies in your labour force you also need to find places for them to live,” he said.

Muhammad Abdul Bari, general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, predicted that the number of mosques in Britain would multiply from the present 1,600 in line with the rising Islamic population. He said the greater platform that Muslims would command in the future should not be perceived as a threat to the rest of society.

“We each have our own set of beliefs. This should really be a source of celebration rather than fear as long as we all clearly understand that we must abide by the laws of this country regardless of the faith we belong to,” he said.

The Cohesion Minister, Sadiq Khan, told The Times: “We in central Government and local authorities need to continue our work to ensure that our communities are as integrated and cohesive as possible.”

Growing numbers

The total number of Muslims in Great Britain:

2004: 1,870,000

2005: 2,017,000

2006: 2,142,000

2007: 2,327,000

2008: 2,422,000

Source: Labour Force Survey

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle5621482.ece
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Uthman
02-24-2009, 02:35 PM
Reactions?

I think this is pretty significant, although, as a British Muslim, I'm not sure whether there is any reason for me to react positively to this news.
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Zafran
02-24-2009, 03:45 PM
salaam

intresting
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*Yasmin*
02-24-2009, 04:15 PM
^^ indeed intresting
thanx for sharing

“We each have our own set of beliefs. This should really be a source of celebration rather than fear as long as we all clearly understand that we must abide by the laws of this country regardless of the faith we belong to,” he said.
^^ i read this 2 times

glad to know this
Growing numbers

The total number of Muslims in Great Britain:

2004: 1,870,000

2005: 2,017,000

2006: 2,142,000

2007: 2,327,000

2008: 2,422,000

Source: Labour Force Survey
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kwolney01
02-24-2009, 04:38 PM
Wow...SubhanAllah!!

I would like to see something like this about Americas population of Muslims. I know it has grown significantly, but I haven't seen any sources that show the numbers. Maybe after the census is over it will be more clear.

Thanks for sharing,

Jazak Allah Khair
Reply

Gator
02-24-2009, 07:13 PM
I would have guessed muslims were greater than 4.0% of the population, more like 8%. At this average rate (and holding the UK pop steady), Muslims will constitute 10% of the population by 2036.
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Muezzin
02-24-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Reactions?

I think this is pretty significant, although, as a British Muslim, I'm not sure whether there is any reason for me to react positively to this news.
Certain extreme right types might react positively to this news.

In the sense that in their minds it would justify their 'cockroach' similes and subsequent ethnic cleansing measures dealt with boat and bat.
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Uthman
06-03-2009, 02:26 PM
:bump1:
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 02:40 PM
It's a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
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S_87
06-03-2009, 02:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
how
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aamirsaab
06-03-2009, 02:45 PM
:sl:

We don't die
We multiply

:w:
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
how
for starters prevent additional Muslim immigration
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

We don't die
We multiply

:w:
Yep, that's why the government should make 2 children per couple the only financially viable option, by putting additional tax pressure on less or more etc.
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S_87
06-03-2009, 02:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
for starters prevent additional Muslim immigration
specifically muslim because they are muslim (with a box to tick..) or do you mean a specific country...
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 02:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
specifically muslim because they are muslim (with a box to tick..) or do you mean a specific country...
A questionaire is not really a viable option, anyone could lie and it may not even be legally possible, better to stop immigration from countries with a significant Muslim poulation.
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S_87
06-03-2009, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A questionaire is not really a viable option, anyone could lie and it may not even be legally possible, better to stop immigration from countries with a significant Muslim poulation.
i see. im an immigrant but i guess if it was done that way id be allowed in this country, but alot of fellow muslims wouldnt just because of the country they came from? real stupid
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Amadeus85
06-03-2009, 03:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
But not in democracy, liberalism, pluralism, tolerance system. The system must be changed otherwise nothing will be changed.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
i see. im an immigrant but i guess if it was done that way id be allowed in this country, but alot of fellow muslims wouldnt just because of the country they came from? real stupid
It's the only viable way I can think of.
Of course there's also the tickbox and when I think about it, would any proper Muslim tick 'no' so they could enter a kuffar country? i don't think so.
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S_87
06-03-2009, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's the only viable way I can think of.
Of course there's also the tickbox and when I think about it, would any proper Muslim tick 'no' so they could enter a kuffar country? i don't think so.
so ur not concerned about a large hindu or sikh or jew population, just a large muslim population?
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
But not in democracy, liberalism, pluralism, tolerance system. The system must be changed otherwise nothing will be changed.
those are the reason I am against additional influx of Muslims. I want Europe remains a secular, liberal, multicultural, pluralistic,demcoratic as it is now. However, certain sacrifices need to be done on part of the very ideals I wish to perserve.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
so ur not concerned about a large hindu or sikh or jew population, just a large muslim population?
There is no large hindu or sikh or jew population, whereas Muslims are at 8% and growing.
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S_87
06-03-2009, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There is no large hindu or sikh or jew population, whereas Muslims are at 8% and growing.
and how is that worrying. and say u stopped immigrants coming in from certain countries *i dont know which ones youd do specifically* but english people reverted...how would you stop that?
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Amadeus85
06-03-2009, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
those are the reason I am against additional influx of Muslims. I want Europe remains a secular, liberal, multicultural, pluralistic,demcoratic as it is now. However, certain sacrifices need to be done on part of the very ideals I wish to perserve.
I was also thinking like that for a long time, but lately I changed my mind. Democracy is a good, comfortable system that provides economic welfare. But if we would like to strictly abide the democratic system in nowadays Europe its all lost because they would take over countries in democratic elections. Especially when our liberals and socialists already look for muslim Obamas. I say it with ensurance that if we want to have democracy in Europe through this century we can already dig big hole for our continent.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 03:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
and how is that worrying. and say u stopped immigrants coming in from certain countries *i dont know which ones youd do specifically* but english people reverted...how would you stop that?
I wouldn't and there's no need to really, the number converts is small compared to immigrants and new generations of immigrants born in the host country.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I was also thinking like that for a long time, but lately I changed my mind. Democracy is a good, comfortable system that provides economic welfare. But if we would like to strictly abide the democratic system in nowadays Europe its all lost because they would take over countries in democratic elections. Especially when our liberals and socialists already look for muslim Obamas. I say it with ensurance that if we want to have democracy in Europe through this century we can already dig big hole for our continent.
So what do you propse indtead? A christian dictatorship? I remember you mentioned Franco and Salazar as viable options not too long ago. Well, I'd rather have an Islamic state than that.
But ideally, Europe should be a secular, democratic, liberal, multiethnic continent with no minorities threating to overthrow it, which includes Muslims, extreme Catholics, communists..
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crayon
06-03-2009, 03:35 PM
"Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'"

Oh the drama.

format_quote Originally Posted by amani
how
Neuter 'em, I say!
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Al-Zaara
06-03-2009, 03:41 PM
Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

It's not the quantity that counts, but the quality.

And the quality is a mess.
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ardianto
06-03-2009, 03:45 PM
May I know how many Anglo Muslim in Britain ? I mean British caucasian Muslim. I have seen some photos from Viva Palestine departure ceremony, and I saw almost all of Muslim in those photos have middle east faces.

(Just wondering, was there LI member in those photos ?)
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sister herb
06-03-2009, 04:20 PM
:sl:

I don´t know how increasing amount of muslims in Europe would threaten the democracy at all. Is it threat only when people pray in mosques by the name of Allah but not when people pray in churches by the name of God?

:rollseyes
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Amadeus85
06-03-2009, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
those are the reason I am against additional influx of Muslims. I want Europe remains a secular, liberal, multicultural, pluralistic,demcoratic as it is now. However, certain sacrifices need to be done on part of the very ideals I wish to perserve.
This contradicts itself. In liberal democracy, You cant persecute anyone based on religion/race/skin colour. In liberal democracy You cant forbid gays to adopt children, as well as You cant forbid a muslim to be a prime minister who then opens the gates to immigrants. Actually in liberal democracy, Your words about limitting the number of muslims to Europe are unaccaptable. This is the language of Jorg Heider, language of fascism. In liberal democracy such issues like the ethnic or religious features are unacceptable. This is the strict following of "Freedom,Equality,Brotherhood". At last in liberal democracy it doesnt matter if a country Slovakia is inhabited by 3 millions of sympathic Pakistanis. Any words warning against it are undemocratic, they are fascist. This is the legacy of "Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité". That is why this girl supports this rule in France, although that in Morocco she would treat it as Kufr idea.

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KAding
06-03-2009, 05:08 PM
I'll be honest, I'm not thrilled by such news. Islamic ideals and societal principles are simply not mine. It is not individualistic enough and freedom is simply not one of its priorities. There also seem so many Muslims that are unhappy with the society they live in, that I believe that a large increase in the number of pious Muslim will IMHO lead to more social conflict and more clashes.

Btw, how did the atheist population evolve over those 4 years? From the stats it appears atheists are also overrepresented in younger age groups. Besides, I oppose this idea that children of less then 4 years old can have a religion! At best they are born in a certain religious background. But plenty of Muslims turn away from their religion when they grow up and stop practicing.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 05:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
This contradicts itself. In liberal democracy, You cant persecute anyone based on religion/race/skin colour. In liberal democracy You cant forbid gays to adopt children, as well as You cant forbid a muslim to be a prime minister who then opens the gates to immigrants. Actually in liberal democracy, Your words about limitting the number of muslims to Europe are unaccaptable. This is the language of Jorg Heider, language of fascism. In liberal democracy such issues like the ethnic or religious features are unacceptable. This is the strict following of "Freedom,Equality,Brotherhood". At last in liberal democracy it doesnt matter if a country Slovakia is inhabited by 3 millions of sympathic Pakistanis. Any words warning against it are undemocratic, they are fascist. This is the legacy of "Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité". That is why this girl supports this rule in France, although that in Morocco she would treat it as Kufr idea.

Yeh, what I'm saying is that liberal decoracy needs to be adapted in order to make it sustainable.
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KAding
06-03-2009, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yeh, what I'm saying is that liberal decoracy needs to be adapted in order to make it sustainable.
Reminds me of a friend of mine. He always kept saying: "liberal democracy is not a suicide pact".

The irony of it all is that Muslims now depend on liberal ideals of freedom to defend their way of life while they are a minority. Yet, these freedoms are not at all part of Islamic political ideals. Dawaah stalls and freedom to build mosques are nice, but an atheist 'Dawaah stall' in a Muslim majority country is unthinkable.
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crayon
06-03-2009, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I'll be honest, I'm not thrilled by such news. Islamic ideals and societal principles are simply not mine. It is not individualistic enough and freedom is simply not one of its priorities. There also seem so many Muslims that are unhappy with the society they live in, that I believe that a large increase in the number of pious Muslim will IMHO lead to more social conflict and more clashes.
Perhaps more muslims (especially indigenous ones) would make the rest of society realize that "hey, these muslims actually belong here, perhaps we should try to figure out how to peacefully coexist with them?". Perhaps they would be more encouraged to solve problems with the muslim community if they were more large scale?
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KAding
06-03-2009, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Perhaps more muslims (especially indigenous ones) would make the rest of society realize that "hey, these muslims actually belong here, perhaps we should try to figure out how to peacefully coexist with them?". Perhaps they would be more encouraged to solve problems with the muslim community if they were more large scale?
True, we have no choice. We have to coexist, there is no alternative. There will have to be compromises. Again, there is no alternative. As Muslims increase their electoral clout they will gain influence, this is a fact of life.

IMHO the most important aspect here is to avoid social issues from getting out of hand. We got an increasingly large group of non-Muslim British radicalizing in opposition to Muslim migration. In response we have Muslims radicalizing as well.

We need to make sure our societies don't turn into a Lebanon or Northern Ireland. Or heck, even an India, where thousands die each year in all kinds of structural religious and ethnic violence. Sure, it seems far away and unlikely in a rich stable country like Britain. But lets not forget that European history is filled with religious violence and civil unrest. It would be silly to assume we are now somehow immune from it.
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KAding
06-03-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
This contradicts itself. In liberal democracy, You cant persecute anyone based on religion/race/skin colour. In liberal democracy You cant forbid gays to adopt children, as well as You cant forbid a muslim to be a prime minister who then opens the gates to immigrants. Actually in liberal democracy, Your words about limitting the number of muslims to Europe are unaccaptable. This is the language of Jorg Heider, language of fascism. In liberal democracy such issues like the ethnic or religious features are unacceptable. This is the strict following of "Freedom,Equality,Brotherhood". At last in liberal democracy it doesnt matter if a country Slovakia is inhabited by 3 millions of sympathic Pakistanis. Any words warning against it are undemocratic, they are fascist. This is the legacy of "Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité". That is why this girl supports this rule in France, although that in Morocco she would treat it as Kufr idea.
Well, if your goal is to prevent the growth of Islam in Europe, the only policy measure you can reasonably pursue is putting strict controls on Muslim immigration. Any other measure will without doubt be illiberal, discriminatory and thus oppressive, because you'll be infringing of the rights of Muslim citizens. This is IMHO unacceptable.

That is why immigration controls is the only policy I support.
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جوري
06-03-2009, 05:50 PM
It is inevitable and the only choices I see for Europe, is to be constantly engaged in wars creating public hysteria with home made bombs and terrorist threats that they attribute to Muslims, so that there is a constant schism and hatred, whereby they justify their oppressions and murders overseas whilst doing what they have done best for centuries which is steal the wealth of other nations to support their habits 'under the guise of freedom' of course.. but fact of the matter is, with the current economic crisis promising to continue.. they will have no choice but to a real war on their hands, where the other group is pushed hard enough and has had enough, and I reckon it will not be pretty.. not really as a matter of resources but sheer number and drive of the 'enemy'.

and I believe that is exactly what will happen!

all the best
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:02 PM
Salaam

people are panicking - this news shows that stopping Immigartion doesnt mean anything - what about the non muslims - why dont you start to producing more children?? The Question also has to eb asked why are the other groups not increasing so much - if they are at all.

peace
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The Ruler
06-03-2009, 07:06 PM
Muslim mothers probably pop out 10 times more kids than other mothers. So the stats isn't surprising at all.
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جوري
06-03-2009, 07:11 PM
The core of secularism:
advocates freedoms as such it is beginning to backfire on them...
to be homosexual, to sleep around and not commit to a woman, to drink alcohol, to have children via insemination if at all.. none of these foster a family unit.. I bring up alcohol amongst others because it can lower sperm count. Actually each thing I have mentioned up which goes against Islamic principles also thwarts their own effort at a homogeneous Europe but they are not realizing that they are in fact bringing it upon themselves but desire a scapegoat in the form of 'Muslims' for it is easier to blame their own failures than own up to them!

:w:
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:13 PM
This contradicts itself. In liberal democracy, You cant persecute anyone based on religion/race/skin colour. In liberal democracy You cant forbid gays to adopt children, as well as You cant forbid a muslim to be a prime minister who then opens the gates to immigrants. Actually in liberal democracy, Your words about limitting the number of muslims to Europe are unaccaptable. This is the language of Jorg Heider, language of fascism. In liberal democracy such issues like the ethnic or religious features are unacceptable. This is the strict following of "Freedom,Equality,Brotherhood". At last in liberal democracy it doesnt matter if a country Slovakia is inhabited by 3 millions of sympathic Pakistanis. Any words warning against it are undemocratic, they are fascist. This is the legacy of "Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité". That is why this girl supports this rule in France, although that in Morocco she would treat it as Kufr idea.[
the real problem is this - in a liberal democracy its a free choice to live your life the way you want - why are other majority groups not increasing so much - its a failure on your own parts - if you want to sustain your idea you have to make comprimises - the Question is can you give up some things up to keep your views and ideas sustained or do they want to live your hednostic lifestyle? many people dont want to give up there hednositc lifestyle - i find it higly ironic realy - and they complain?
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جوري
06-03-2009, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Ruler
Muslim mothers probably pop out 10 times more kids than other mothers. So the stats isn't surprising at all.

actually Jews pop out even more than Muslims:
with an average of 7 to 8 children per family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Square,_New_York

the only difference is, that Jews view God as solely theirs, whilst the gentiles can go wherever, it doesn't matter.. but God isn't exclusive to a 'chosen few', hence though amongst themselves they have quite a large off spring population, they remain homogeneous amongst themselves and not let in outsiders, makes them unsuccessful as well in the scheme of the bigger picture..

:w:
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The core of secularism:
advocates freedoms as such it is beginning to backfire on them...
to be homosexual, to sleep around and not commit to a woman, to drink alcohol, to have children via insemination if at all.. none of these foster a family unit.. I bring up alcohol amongst others because it can lower sperm count. Actually each thing I have mentioned up which goes against Islamic principles also thwarts their own effort at a homogeneous Europe but they are not realizing that they are in fact bringing it upon themselves but desire a scapegoat in the form of 'Muslims' for it is easier to blame their own failures than own up to them!

:w:
salaam

exactly - its easy to blame the "immigarants" or the muslims like the BNP but the real fact is that in a liberal democracy its a free choice to live your life the way you want - these people are worried because of there own failures. All the hednostic lifestyle is backfiring as you said.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

exactly - its easy to blame the "immigarants" or the muslims like the BNP but the real fact is that in a liberal democracy its a free choice to live your life the way you want - these people are worried because of there own failures. All the hednostic lifestyle is backfiring as you said.
Yes, you can, that's why we can't limit people already here, but the liberal demcoracy dosn't prevent stopping new ones cooming in.
It's true, Europans don't have enough babies, and there's not gionna be a rapid increase in birth rates any time soon, so the only way to protect Europe and its hedonistic lifesytle is taking it up to the immigrants who threaten to overtake the continent.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The Ruler
Muslim mothers probably pop out 10 times more kids than other mothers. So the stats isn't surprising at all.
somali mothers probably 20 times more
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
somali mothers probably 20 times more
But the average Muslim birth rates in Europe aren't that higher than those of the nativ population and they're slowly decreasing. Muslims too are not immune to the effects of secularism and the economic standards.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
immigrants who threaten to overtake the continent.
haha looks like that bothers you quite a bit, no ones making any threats and who knows it might just come about naturally with the people already here, then what?
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جوري
06-03-2009, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, you can, that's why we can't limit people already here, but the liberal demcoracy dosn't prevent stopping new ones cooming in.
It's true, Europans don't have enough babies, and there's not gionna be a rapid increase in birth rates any time soon, so the only way to protect Europe and its hedonistic lifesytle is taking it up to the immigrants who threaten to overtake the continent.
hedonism isn't the norm so of course it will be over taken..

you don't pig out everyday and decide for healthy food on Saturday and expect that, that should keep you safe from harm..

you don't smoke all your life and quit after you end up with small cell ca. and expect that now quitting will reverse the situation.

If you choose Hedonism for a life style, porn, alcohol, homosexuality and BCP then you'll become extinct, it is your own doing..
what is this interesting philosophy of yours?, if I am going to go down, I'll take everyone else with me?
I am afraid it doesn't work that way-- perhaps a shift in gears and a change in priorities might salvage Europe, but then they'll have to become that which they so despise!

all the best
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Muezzin
06-03-2009, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I'll be honest, I'm not thrilled by such news.
To be honest, I can't see why you'd feel that way. As you recognise later in that same post, religious adherence is memetic, not genetic. Birth rates are therefore fallacious to be either disappointed or thrilled about in this context.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
But the average Muslim birth rates in Europe aren't that higher than those of the nativ population and they're slowly decreasing. Muslims too are not immune to the effects of secularism and the economic standards.
maybe, but you don't know about our somali brothers theres new ones being born everyday, I reckon at this rate there'll be more somali muslims in this country than pakistani muslims in a few years.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
But the average Muslim birth rates in Europe aren't that higher than those of the nativ population and they're slowly decreasing. Muslims too are not immune to the effects of secularism and the economic standards.

well why are you not producing that many children??? are you not to blame for that??? are you willing make sacrifices like the somlia mother has?

edit - The birth rates of muslims is higher watch the video below.
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جوري
06-03-2009, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
But the average Muslim birth rates in Europe aren't that higher than those of the nativ population and they're slowly decreasing. Muslims too are not immune to the effects of secularism and the economic standards.

actually according to this vid. courtesy of Clover it is higher....

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...im-growth.html
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
haha looks like that bothers you quite a bit, no ones making any threats and who knows it might just come about naturally with the people already here, then what?
Then it will be our own fault for not stopping immigration in time.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
actually according to this vid. courtesy of Clover it is higher....

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...im-growth.html
It is higher, though this vido is exagerated.
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جوري
06-03-2009, 07:37 PM
who knows maybe it is-- maybe it is maybe it isn't?.. I love their fears though.. it tickles me on a level..

all the best
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It is higher, though this vido is exagerated.
how is it exaggerated??? whats your prrof on that

1 - the article
2 - the video

show higher birth rates of muslims - why arnt other populations doing the same? can they not make sacrifices? immigrants is a scape goat for peoples own failures.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
well why are you not producing that many children??? are you not to blame for that??? are you willing make sacrifices like the somlia mother has?

edit - The birth rates of muslims is higher watch the video below.
As much as we can't force the somalian immigrant to have less children, we can't force natives to have more.
The only legal way to decrease the Muslim growth in europe is and end to Muslim immigration.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
As much as we can't force the somalian immigrant to have less children, we can't force natives to have more.
The only legal way to decrease the Muslim growth in europe is and end to Muslim immigration.

how when the Muslims population of europe NOT immigrants are producing the children. reducing immigertaion does nothing whats so ever. Maybe the non muslims need to produce more children and give up there hednostic lifestyle and take some sacrifices - which is what life has always been about - if people are not doing it - then why compalin? is there own fault.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
how is it exaggerated??? whats your prrof on that

1 - the article
2 - the video

show higher birth rates of muslims - why arnt other populations doing the same? can they not make sacrifices? immigrants is a scape goat for peoples own failures.
It is higher but not as much as the video claims and the video doesn't say that with firther gnerations of immigrants birth rates decrease, mostly due to the fact that they achieve an economic status their parents and grandparents did not have.
I wouldn't call it a failure, its a different culture and lifestyle, luckily many people now see how massive immigration may ruin it all, so they're limiting it.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It is higher but not as much as the video claims and the video doesn't say that with firther gnerations of immigrants birth rates decrease, mostly due to the fact that they achieve an economic status their parents and grandparents did not have.
I wouldn't call it a failure, its a different culture and lifestyle, luckily many people now see how massive immigration may ruin it all, so they're limiting it.
again this preety much "hypothetical" right? because the article shows that the birth increase is the real problem from european muslims rather then immigeration.

how when the Muslims population of europe NOT immigrants are producing the children. reducing immigertaion does nothing whats so ever. Maybe the non muslims need to produce more children and give up there hednostic lifestyle and take some sacrifices - which is what life has always been about - if people are not doing it - then why compalin? is there own fault.
The real problem is the failure of there own part.
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KAding
06-03-2009, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
To be honest, I can't see why you'd feel that way. As you recognise later in that same post, religious adherence is memetic, not genetic. Birth rates are therefore fallacious to be either disappointed or thrilled about.
True, we can make all kinds of nuances, but I would be fooling myself if I thought a "10 times faster" rise in Muslims wouldn't actually mean more practicing politically-aware Muslims as well. We'll simply have more people walking around who are debating whether being friends with non-Muslims is halal, or whether voting isn't kufr, or who believe their own government is an enemy of Islam, or who believe making cartoons about Muhammed should be outlawed. They will have many issues with the current liberal, atheist 'hedonistic' way of life in Western European countries, one which I value strongly.

Note, I of course don't blame some Muslims for believing what they believe, but I think social strife will become more likely because of this. I don't want to play a blame game, 'Islamophobia' and racism among non-Muslims is a real issue as well and as much to blame as well.

I just want two things:
1. Keep our liberal ideals intact
2. Prevent social strife
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
how when the Muslims population of europe NOT immigrants are producing the children. reducing immigertaion does nothing whats so ever. Maybe the non muslims need to produce more children and give up there hednostic lifestyle and take some sacrifices - which is what life has always been about - if people are not doing it - then why compalin? is there own fault.
An end to immigration will definitely tackle the growth to some extent as well as ensure that in 50 years Muslims will be better integrated, every Muslim will be british born, raised in british schools, more adapted to the british society than new immigrants.
I said before the government could introduce new taxation that would encourage every couple having 2 children, making it the best option financially speaking. That way Europans will have more kids, and the somali woman less.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
An end to immigration will definitely tackle the growth to some extent as well as ensure that in 50 years Muslims will be better integrated, every Muslim will be british born, raised in british schools, more adapted to the british society than new immigrants.
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I said before the government could introduce new taxation that would encourage every couple having 2 children, making it the best option financially speaking. That way Europans will have more kids, and the somali woman less.
if you havent actually heard the next generation muslims are more religious(the British born) - you do know that - furthermore why the tax? to cover up the failure.

The end to immigertaion isnt actually the problem - its the brith rates realy - right now.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
well why are you not producing that many children??? are you not to blame for that??? are you willing make sacrifices like the somlia mother has?

.
lol, their birth rates are kept high by their 'liberal' girls going out and getting pregnant every other day by random chavs off the council estate. But then also birth rates are lowered because they all want to be single so they can fornicate all they like until they finally feel its time to settle down and have some kids, then when the marriage doesn't last 6 months the whole process starts all over again. yep these are the values they want to stick to
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
lol, their birth rates are kept high by their 'liberal' girls going out and getting pregnant every other day by random chavs off the council estate. But then also birth rates are lowered because they all want to be single so they can fornicate all they like until they finally feel its time to settle down and have some kids, then when the marriage doesn't last 6 months the whole process starts all over again. yep these are the values they want to stick to

Thats the real problem - they have a choice - sacrfice or hedonism - its realy a failure on there part - but like most people they have to balme other people for there own failures.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
[B]

if you havent actually heard the next generation muslims are more religious(the British born) - you do know that - furthermore why the tax? to cover up the failure.

The end to immigertaion isnt actually the problem - its the brith rates realy - right now.
Yes I have heard that, but what about the third generation, and the fourth? And IMHO its their way of revolting and seeking identity etc. Of course additional discrimination of Muslims would make them revolt even more.
Yep, to cover up the failure. Or in other words to protect it at least to some extent. Of course any such legislation would be far from the principles of liberal hedonistic democracy, but you said it yourself, sacrifices need to be made.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
they have a choice - sacrfice or hedonism - .

The only thing that gets sacrificed is their babies through abortions
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Thats the real problem - they have a choice - sacrfice or hedonism - its realy a failure on there part - but like most people they have to balme other people for there own failures.
That is correct. Immigrants are not the ons to blame. They were invited here mostly as cheap labor, they weren't exactly treated well, and they were poor for the most part and had more children.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
The only thing that gets sacrificed is their babies through abortions
Doyou think Muslims girls don't have abortions? The family pressure on them is even greater, to have an illegitimate child in a Muslim environment must be tough, much easier to go to the clinic.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes I have heard that, but what about the third generation, and the fourth? And IMHO its their way of revolting and seeking identity etc. Of course additional discrimination of Muslims would make them revolt even more.
Yep, to cover up the failure. Or in other words to protect it at least to some extent. Of course any such legislation would be far from the principles of liberal hedonistic democracy, but you said it yourself, sacrifices need to be made.
including the third generation - from person experience They are more religious not becasue of "seeking identity" but Becasue Islam is the identity.

correction there is no such thing as "liberal hednostic democracy" only liberal democracy which is a system where everyone chooses there way of life on there individual prefernences

or sacrifcies VS hedonism. - the hedonism isnt working maybe the personal sacrifes have to come into - as said before thats what life has always been about. :)
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
including the third generation - from person experience They are more religious not becasue of "seeking identity" but Becasue Islam is the identity.

correction there is no such thing as "liberal hednostic democracy" only liberal democracy which is a system where everyone chooses there way of life on there individual prefernences

or sacrifcies VS hedonism. - the hedonism isnt working maybe the personal sacrifes have to come into - as said before thats what life has always been about. :)
You seem to like liberal demcoracy very much.. to what extent? do you suppoer gay marriage, legal protitution etc?
I know there isn't, but everyone is mentioning hedonism so I thought I'd add it.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That is correct. Immigrants are not the ons to blame. They were invited here mostly as cheap labor, they weren't exactly treated well, and they were poor for the most part and had more children.
They also did all the terrible jobs that nobody wanted to do but most important of all they were willing to sacrifice unlike the hednostic poor people. As you said they were also willing to work for low wages. If they went through all that - they have a right or even more to stay in that country.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
They also did all the terrible jobs that nobody wanted to do but most important of all they were willing to sacrifice unlike the hednostic poor people. As you said they were also willing to work for low wages. If they went through all that - they have a right or even more to stay in that country.
Yes they do, I'm not saying they should be expelled. New ones shouldn't come in, thats all. No more family reunions either.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You seem to like liberal demcoracy very much.. to what extent? do you suppoer gay marriage, legal protitution etc?
I know there isn't, but everyone is mentioning hedonism so I thought I'd add it.
Gay marriage and especially "legal prostitution" are not Inherently part of liberal democracy - in a liberal democracy you dont have to support either - its all about individual choices. The problem is make the selfish one then your going to feel drawbacks.

eg - pro homosexuality or legalise prostitution will just reduce the birth rates.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes they do, I'm not saying they should be expelled. New ones shouldn't come in, thats all. No more family reunions either.
sorry to tell you but you cant stop the family reunions anyway:D

Immigeration is needed anyway - to do the jobs nobody wnats to do. You can put the limit on but you'll see the effect on the economy.

I'm off.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Doyou think Muslims girls don't have abortions?
I think asian muslim girls would rather die than let there families find out somethin like that

but you can't even compare their abortion rates to the average english screw-ups off estates
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KAding
06-03-2009, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
again this preety much "hypothetical" right? because the article shows that the birth increase is the real problem from european muslims rather then immigeration.
They are both important. The article just says that immigration, birth rates and conversions matter, it doesn't quantify how important they are exactly?

Like whatsthepoint states, we cannot force people to have more or fewer children. Nor can we control conversions. But we can to a limited extend control immigration.

But you are right, the core issue is that our own values and lifestyles are to an extend to blame for the current state of affairs. Firstly, we have fewer children and secondly, our constitutions forbid policies that protect the majority culture. Virtually every Muslim-majority country puts limits on the building of churches, on public preaching by non-Muslims and on conversions away from Islam. These measures are not allowed here.

That is exactly why there is such pressure on these values from extreme-right parties and movements, because there are voters out there who believe these same illiberal measures need to be implemented here, to protect our culture. From my perspective both these extreme-right groups who want to 'stop Islamization' by illiberal means and Muslims who want 'stop kufr' are two sides on the same coin. Both are a threat to my freedoms, both groups are growing. I am not comfortable with this.

Perhaps you are right, the only way for me to do anything about it is to breed more children! But there are enough people on this planet as is if you ask me :(.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Gay marriage and especially "legal prostitution" are not Inherently part of liberal democracy - in a liberal democracy you dont have to support either - its all about individual choices. The problem is make the selfish one then your going to feel drawbacks.

eg - pro homosexuality or legalise prostitution will just reduce the birth rate.
I don't have to inherently support minorities rights either, do I?
I know, but I'm not yet saying we should try to raise it.
We close the door for new Muslims, including imams, expel every imam who can't pass the advanced english certificate test, try to non-agressively secularize the Muslim population, or let the process go by itself, but to do that Britain should stop all foreign affairs that may negatively affect its Muslim community.
The Muslims birth rate should settle down, as it is already doing, more Muslims women are studying, Muslims strice for higher standard which requires more money etc.
Then we bring south Americans, or Buddhists, or Poles. someone who will integrate better.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
sorry to tell you but you cant stop the family reunions anyway:D

Immigeration is needed anyway - to do the jobs nobody wnats to do. You can put the limit on but you'll see the effect on the economy.

I'm off.
Yes you can, by family renuions I am referring to legal immigrants bringing their families to the UK.
Yes, but let's have the Poles instead!
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Muezzin
06-03-2009, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
True, we can make all kinds of nuances, but I would be fooling myself if I thought a "10 times faster" rise in Muslims wouldn't actually mean more practicing politically-aware Muslims as well.
In practicing Muslims (whatever they are), political-awareness is necessarily a bad thing?

We'll simply have more people walking around who are debating whether being friends with non-Muslims is halal, or whether voting isn't kufr, or who believe their own government is an enemy of Islam, or who believe making cartoons about Muhammed should be outlawed. They will have many issues with the current liberal, atheist 'hedonistic' way of life in Western European countries, one which I value strongly.
Aren't you pro freedom of expression?

Note, I of course don't blame some Muslims for believing what they believe, but I think social strife will become more likely because of this.
I agree to a point. We have to be more optimistic because, as you've said, co-existence is the only option. So, enough of this 'dialogue' stuff as it's generally understood. Dialogue shouldn't be limited to religious scholars conversing on YouTube. Muslims should go out, be kind to their neighbours, Muslim or non-Muslim, help in the community. Things like that, which Islam encourages. Everything else should fall into place, and any racists will even more clearly expose themselves as such and be rightly marginalised by the wider society.

I don't want to play a blame game, 'Islamophobia' and racism among non-Muslims is a real issue as well and as much to blame as well.

I just want two things:
1. Keep our liberal ideals intact
2. Prevent social strife
1. Nobody can make any guarantees in politics.
2. I agree wholeheartedly.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yep, that's why the government should make 2 children per couple the only financially viable option, by putting additional tax pressure on less or more etc.
If God gives you lemons... move to China. :)
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
If God gives you lemons... move to China. :)
that was only a reply suggestion. I don't really think it should be done..
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I, expel every imam who can't pass the advanced english certificate test,.
;D oh you make me laugh, but yes learning english is important and a basic at least, but what about the rest who can't pass that test?
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Clover
06-03-2009, 08:30 PM
I am against Illegal Immigration, and I am also against the idea that Immigrants should not learn the language that is most common. In my country, that is English, and I do not tolerate people who stand in front of Wal-Mart every sunday and accost people, even though they don't speak English. (Many Mexicans, and other Latino's do this, I guess it's where they like to hang out, but I have seen them whistle at girls before, when they do this, usually I yell something like "shut up moron" in Spanish, thank god for Spanish in Highschool haha)
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
;D oh you make me laugh, but yes learning english is important and a basic at least, but what about the rest who can't pass that test?
Depends on their position and legal status.
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Muezzin
06-03-2009, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
;D oh you make me laugh, but yes learning english is important and a basic at least, but what about the rest who can't pass that test?
Well, mashallah, because the British Muslim community is expanding with people of non-Indo-Pakistani origin, I think it's important that imams should be able to speak English in order to be understood by the congregation. :)

EDIT: Also, as Clover has said, it goes without saying that immigrants to any country should learn its dominant language. It's common sense.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't have to inherently support minorities rights either, do I?
I know, but I'm not yet saying we should try to raise it.
We close the door for new Muslims, including imams, expel every imam who can't pass the advanced english certificate test, try to non-agressively secularize the Muslim population, or let the process go by itself, but to do that Britain should stop all foreign affairs that may negatively affect its Muslim community.
The Muslims birth rate should settle down, as it is already doing, more Muslims women are studying, Muslims strice for higher standard which requires more money etc.
Then we bring south Americans, or Buddhists, or Poles. someone who will integrate better.
Poles are going back anyway and furthermore you do have to takecare of the minorities in a liberal democracy - you dont have to agree with them but you have to look after them - thats the responsibilty of the majority

Homosexuality/leagl prositiution will hinder birth rates and have more negatives then positive anyway - why not bring back the importnace of marriage and children and family and increase child benfites for bigger families.

You can try closing the doors on new muslims and Imams but they are needed anyway and they will come in one way or another.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes you can, by family renuions I am referring to legal immigrants bringing their families to the UK.
Yes, but let's have the Poles instead!
You cant stop that anyway especially if the family member is very close and in trouble and needs looking after.

The poles are going back anyway - they dont want to come in anymore!
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Poles are going back anyway and furthermore you do have to takecare of the minorities in a liberal democracy - you dont have to agree with them but you have to look after them - thats the responsibilty of the majority

Homosexuality/leagl prositiution will hinder birth rates and have more negatives then positive anyway - why not bring back the importnace of marriage and children and family and increase child benfites for bigger families.

You can try closing the doors on new muslims and Imams but they are needed anyway and they will come in one way or another.
Well, from my point of view the growing number of Muslims has more negatives than positives.
Then the law enforcment concerning imams needs to be strenghtened.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You cant stop that anyway especially if the family member is very close and in trouble and needs looking after.

The poles are going back anyway - they dont want to come in anymore!
You can, or at least set high legal limits for a family member to be legally brought to the country.
What about Brazillians?
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, from my point of view the growing number of Muslims has more negatives than positives.
Then the law enforcment concerning imams needs to be strenghtened.
Imams arnt a threat anyway - has you agreed its a failure on your own part to breed less - as the choices go Hedonism vs sacrifice - its realy as simple as that - you need to re check the majoirty lifestyle.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You can, or at least set high legal limits for a family member to be legally brought to the country.
What about Brazillians?
I honestly ahve to tell you that if there was anyone that could take the muslims place i'm sure the government would have done it - in reality you can try and see if Brazilians even want to come to the UK - although its highly unlikely.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Imams arnt a threat anyway - has you agreed its a failure on your own part to breed less - as the choices go Hedonism vs sacrifice - its realy as simple as that - you need to re check the majoirty lifestyle.
They are, though the word I originally used was a problem.
It is a failure, I already said that, but it doesn't mean the only way to protect the european identity is through higher birth rates.
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Clover
06-03-2009, 08:46 PM
Also, I have no problem with heavy muslim immigration to the U.S. unless they:

1. Try to enforce Sharia Law in the U.S.
2. Try to make their religion the National Religion.
3. Use violence to drive out non-believers

Other then that, I don't mind marrying one, as long as she is close to my age, beatiful, and smart. +I gotta love her, but that really narrows it down haha
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
They are, though the word I originally used was a problem.
It is a failure, I already said that, but it doesn't mean the only way to protect the european identity is through higher birth rates.
its realy through self sacrifices eg less hednostic lifestyle - the question is are you ready to do it?
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Also, I have no problem with heavy muslim immigration to the U.S. unless they:

1. Try to enforce Sharia Law in the U.S.
2. Try to make their religion the National Religion.
3. Use violence to drive out non-believers

Other then that, I don't mind marrying one, as long as she is close to my age, beatiful, and smart. +I gotta love her, but that really narrows it down haha
maybe you should also check out the right wing evengelicals - they are a force to be reckoned with especially to secular america.

Muslims in america are also heavily integrated anyway so you dont realy have a problem - some great muslims come from america.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
I honestly ahve to tell you that if there was anyone that could take the muslims place i'm sure the government would have done it - in reality you can try and see if Brazilians even want to come to the UK - although its highly unlikely.
There is a lot of Brazilians in the UK, more than Turks or Egyptians, but most come from former British colonis anyway.
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Clover
06-03-2009, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
maybe you should also check out the right wing evengelicals - they are a force to be reckoned with especially to secular america.
haha, they are never gonna get through cause people are growing brains, and plus they are a dying breed, at least, from what I've seen.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
haha, they are never gonna get through cause people are growing brains, and plus they are a dying breed, at least, from what I've seen.
I heard they were increasing - but you live there so you'll probably know more.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
its realy through self sacrifices eg less hednostic lifestyle - the question is are you ready to do it?
I don't think that would work. We'll just have to find another way.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There is a lot of Brazilians in the UK, more than Turks or Egyptians, but most come from former British colonis anyway.
Thats where all immigerrants come atleast most of them from former British colonies - to name some others - Hong kong, south africa.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't think that would work. We'll just have to find another way.
oh yes it will you just have to work realy hard.
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Clover
06-03-2009, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
I heard they were increasing - but you live there so you'll probably know more.
I'll check it out, if I hear anything I'll let ya know.

*Runs to the Secret Order of Statistics of Right Wing Evangelicals*

lol, idk, if they are, it's probably gonna die down, since we got rid of Bush and put Obama up, but idk, Obama is rather akward, at least we knew Bush was a hillbilly, but Obama is a mystery.

btw: I live on a farm, and yes I am probably considered a hillbilly, so don't get mad if your a bush supporter.
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Muezzin
06-03-2009, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
btw: I live on a farm, and yes I am probably considered a hillbilly, so don't get mad if your a bush supporter.
Hey, Luke Skywalker lived on a farm, and he brought down an Empire :p

More seriously and on-topic... it's kind of funny and kind of disturbing that people react in an... edgy way to birth rates. Nobody on either side of any 'fence' should be having kids solely to up the population of their 'team'.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I'll check it out, if I hear anything I'll let ya know.

*Runs to the Secret Order of Statistics of Right Wing Evangelicals*

lol, idk, if they are, it's probably gonna die down, since we got rid of Bush and put Obama up, but idk, Obama is rather akward, at least we knew Bush was a hillbilly, but Obama is a mystery.

btw: I live on a farm, and yes I am probably considered a hillbilly, so don't get mad if your a bush supporter.

lol - so far so good for Obama.

- closing Gutanmo
- calling for the end of settlements

It could go downhill but it looks good so far.
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Clover
06-03-2009, 08:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Hey, Luke Skywalker lived on a farm, and he brought down an Empire :p
lol on his farm they didn't do half the physical work we do currently this day, they used mostly robots, and I doubt he did more then program the robots to plant certain fields and such, but I think they farmed something other then plants, idk what, I forgot what they called the farm.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 08:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
oh yes it will you just have to work realy hard.
What I meant is that the birth rates of the indigenous European population are unlikely to increase.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What I meant is that the birth rates of the indigenous European population are unlikely to increase.
right - i thought you menat stopping the hedonstic lifestyle
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
right - i thought you menat stopping the hedonstic lifestyle
The thing is I want to have both the liberal democracy and the hedonistic lifestlye it makes possible as well as keep the national identities intact. A shariah state would mean and end to both.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Also, I have no problem with heavy muslim immigration to the U.S. unless they:

1. Try to enforce Sharia Law in the U.S.
2. Try to make their religion the National Religion.
3. Use violence to drive out non-believers
1. out of all the muslim countries why would anyone want shariah in the U.S?
2. well it doesn't have to be a official religion
3. no ones gonna use violence against a heavily armed U.S so don't worry, you get americans sleeping with m16's under their pillows for this kind of thing so I doubt americans would tolerate any thing of the sort

Other then that, I don't mind marrying one, as long as she is close to my age, beatiful, and smart. +I gotta love her, but that really narrows it down haha
Well a practising muslim would mind marrying you, thats unless you became muslim followed all islamic morals and principles which aren't present in american society, then if you're lucky you just might be acceptable to her :thumbs_up
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
1. out of all the muslim countries why would anyone want shariah in the U.S?
Well why do they want it in the UK?
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KAding
06-03-2009, 09:08 PM
On the issue of immigration. Here are some figures about British Residents born abroad: BBC News | British residents born abroad

These stats compare figures from 1991 with those from 2001 (so ten years). If we assume these increases to be linear and adapt these figures for a four year period, we get the following:

Code:
Country		1991	change 4y	% change
Pakistan	234164	34641		14.79%
Bangladesh	104925	19710		18.79%
Turkey	        26757	10882		40.67%
Malaysia	43608	2239		5.14%
Iran	        32158	4087		12.71%
So in short, on average the number of foreign born UK residents from these Muslim countries has increased quite significantly, i.e. due to immigration. In total, the number of residents in the UK that were born in any of these 5 countries rose by 17.5% in our recalculated four year period. In the four year period cited in the original article the number of Muslims increased to 2.4 million, an increase of 500,000 in 4 years. This is an increase of 26%.

This would indicate that immigration is in fact the largest contributor to the rise in the Muslim population in the UK. Assuming of course that immigration rates are in any way comparable in the two times periods!

Disclaimer: "there are lies, ****ed lies and statistics"
Reply

Clover
06-03-2009, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
1. out of all the muslim countries why would anyone want shariah in the U.S?
2. well it doesn't have to be a official religion
3. no ones gonna use violence against a heavily armed U.S so don't worry, you get americans sleeping with m16's under their pillows for this kind of thing so I doubt americans would tolerate any thing of the sort



Well a practising muslim would mind marrying you, thats unless you became muslim followed all islamic morals and principles which aren't present in american society, then if you're lucky you just might be acceptable to her :thumbs_up
1. Cause they want too? I was just told it says in the Quran Muslim domination of the world, would that not mean Sharai Law in the U.S.?

2. Big difference between official and the national religion buddy.

3. I sleep with a shotgun in my room, and I will be sleeping with a m-4 beside me when I join up and do a tour ;)

Eh, then she obviously isn't the one I love.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well why do they want it in the UK?
who does? they might want some small parts of it but the whole thing would never work
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
1. Cause they want too? I was just told it says in the Quran Muslim domination of the world, would that not mean Sharai Law in the U.S.?
thats gonna happen naturally near the end of time, aint nothing you can do about that, because if you're alive at the time you too will accept islam when you see the prophet Isa (Jesus) descend, ithink

3. I sleep with a shotgun in my room, and I will be sleeping with a m-4 beside me when I join up and do a tour ;)
how insecure do you have to be to sleep with a gun at your side? do you also have a nuclear bomb shelter in your house?

and the miltary give away assault rifles to keep once you've done a 'tour'?
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Clover
06-03-2009, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
thats gonna happen naturally near the end of time, aint nothing you can do about that, because if you're alive at the time you too will accept islam when you see the prophet Isa (Jesus) descend, ithink



how insecure do you have to be to sleep with a gun at your side? do you also have a nuclear bomb shelter in your house?

and the miltary give away assault rifles to keep once you've done a 'tour'?
That doesn't make it any less likely that people (Muslims) might want Sharai Law in the US. Thanks, I like being told the future, sorry if I don't believe one word of it.

You call it insecure, I call it safe. I nearly got robbed (remember that word, "nearly") and I do not plan on getting robbed anytime soon.

What if I do?

I was talking about during my tour, but also, after it, I plan on buying a m-16 and maybe some others, sorry that I choose to spend my money in my own way...
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
You call it insecure, I call it safe. I nearly got robbed (remember that word, "nearly") and I do not plan on getting robbed anytime soon.

What if I do?

I was talking about during my tour, but also, after it, I plan on buying a m-16 and maybe some others, sorry that I choose to spend my money in my own way...
You're entitled to you own views no ones forcing anything on you :sunny:


also since you're an american and you own guns I might as well take the opportunity and ask:

what happens if you're gettin robbed and you shoot the guy, do you get sentenced or is it like self defence?

why is it legal to own military standard assault rifles, sniper rifles, night vision and all that etc? surely you don't need any of those for basic home self defence? and isn't having weapons like that a huge risk to people as they are far more destructive? I can understand people have a passion for guns and like going to gun ranges, but they shouldn't really be allowed out side of gun ranges
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Clover
06-03-2009, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
You're entitled to you own views no ones forcing anything on you :sunny:


also since you're an american and you own guns I might as well take the opportunity and ask:

what happens if you're gettin robbed and you shoot the guy, do you get sentenced or is it like self defence?

why is it legal to own military standard assault rifles, sniper rifles, night vision and all that etc? surely you don't need any of those for basic home self defence? and isn't having weapons like that a huge risk to people as they are far more destructive? I can understand people have a passion for guns and like going to gun ranges, but they shouldn't really be allowed out side of gun ranges
I never said anyone was.

Self Defense, unless the court decides to make an example of me, which can happen.

It's easier to hunt with all 3 of them, but people are allowed to own them in-case the government turns on the people. Which the founding fathers knew could be possible.

lol

"You're entitled to you own views no ones forcing anything on you :sunny:"
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 09:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
but people are allowed to own them in-case the government turns on the people. Which the founding fathers knew could be possible.
whats that supposed to mean?
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The thing is I want to have both the liberal democracy and the hedonistic lifestlye it makes possible as well as keep the national identities intact. A shariah state would mean and end to both.
again there is no such thing as "shariah state" - Islamic governance is the right term. Furthermore you want too much - that never works in the real world - you have to sacrifice one way or another.
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Clover
06-03-2009, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
whats that supposed to mean?
What do you think? It means what it means, their is no hidden meaning. The government can turn on the people, and most likely will later on in the American existence.
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Amadeus85
06-03-2009, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
maybe, but you don't know about our somali brothers theres new ones being born everyday, I reckon at this rate there'll be more somali muslims in this country than pakistani muslims in a few years.
Well yes, last week I was watching a tv news, where a somali pirate caught by the Brittons or whatever wanted to thank the jail service for the unexpected goods that he has now in jail and he didnt have in his home back in Somalia, for example - a toilet and a running water. So yes, they multiply fast but at what level of progress they are? What is the level of life in rural Pakistan and Morocco, from where many immigrants come to Europe?
And to answer to Whatsthepoint and Kading, You are both with good will but a bit naive Im afraid. Especially the liberal attitude of Kading suprises me, especially that his grandchildren might not see a Dutch in Amsterdam. Whatsthepoint, just like me only observes it from a far distance. Our countries, hidden well in eastern central Europe doesnt have these problems because communism made us too poor to atracct the immigrants for the last 50 years. But I still want to repeat, that liberal democracy will make western Europe a muslim colony, of course I might guess that many Europeans wont care but many (especially the catholic nations) would do many things to avoid it. We even see now signs of the new system in Italy (when democracy is becoming more a decoracy as Whatsthepoint wrongly spelled). Armed soldiers on the streets, navy patrolling the sea. They even already have candidate for a leader, Gianfranco Fini. And history teaches us that Italy gives the new (sometimes bad) ideas to rest of Europe.
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aadil77
06-03-2009, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
What do you think? It means what it means, their is no hidden meaning. The government can turn on the people, and most likely will later on in the American existence.
what is this, some stupid american theory? do you think you can hold up with a couple of guns against an army? It just sounds ridiculous
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Clover
06-03-2009, 10:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
what is this, some stupid american theory? do you think you can hold up with a couple of guns against an army? It just sounds ridiculous
You apparently don't understand the bigger picture, I am not going to discuss anymore with you.

If you want to know the answer to it, then use common sense, I refuse to answer you again when your gonna behave with rude behaivor.
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Blackpool
06-03-2009, 11:12 PM
It's fine going by numbers but many "muslims" I've met are known to drink alcohol, sleep with women and commit sin after sin. They still call themselves muslims.
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KAding
06-03-2009, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Well yes, last week I was watching a tv news, where a somali pirate caught by the Brittons or whatever wanted to thank the jail service for the unexpected goods that he has now in jail and he didnt have in his home back in Somalia, for example - a toilet and a running water. So yes, they multiply fast but at what level of progress they are? What is the level of life in rural Pakistan and Morocco, from where many immigrants come to Europe?
And to answer to Whatsthepoint and Kading, You are both with good will but a bit naive Im afraid. Especially the liberal attitude of Kading suprises me, especially that his grandchildren might not see a Dutch in Amsterdam. Whatsthepoint, just like me only observes it from a far distance. Our countries, hidden well in eastern central Europe doesnt have these problems because communism made us too poor to atracct the immigrants for the last 50 years. But I still want to repeat, that liberal democracy will make western Europe a muslim colony, of course I might guess that many Europeans wont care but many (especially the catholic nations) would do many things to avoid it. We even see now signs of the new system in Italy (when democracy is becoming more a decoracy as Whatsthepoint wrongly spelled). Armed soldiers on the streets, navy patrolling the sea. They even already have candidate for a leader, Gianfranco Fini. And history teaches us that Italy gives the new (sometimes bad) ideas to rest of Europe.
I think we essentially disagree two-fold:
1. We disagree on the urgency of the situation
2. I disagree that we should destroy our freedoms to save our freedom
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Blackpool
It's fine going by numbers but many "muslims" I've met are known to drink alcohol, sleep with women and commit sin after sin. They still call themselves muslims.
Blacksheeps in all groups - most of these people do this sort of stuff hidden.
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KAding
06-03-2009, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Blackpool
It's fine going by numbers but many "muslims" I've met are known to drink alcohol, sleep with women and commit sin after sin. They still call themselves muslims.
True, this is the real unknown. How big is the 'MINO' (Muslim in name only) group?

All this is complicated by the taboo on apostasy in Islam, which means we end up with a social group of so-called 'secular Muslims', which is an obvious contradiction in terms.
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KAding
06-03-2009, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Blacksheeps in all groups - most of these people do this sort of stuff hidden.
But in what 'group' do these 'secular Muslims' belong? Why do we even still consider them Muslim if they don't practice? My grandparents were Christians, but that doesn't mean I am now a 'secular Christian'. I am just not a Christian, full stop.

That same logic should apply to Muslims. Islam is not an ethnicity or race, it isn't a biological trait or hereditary.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 11:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
But in what 'group' do these 'secular Muslims' belong? Why do we even still consider them Muslim if they don't practice?
Muslims are muslims until they out right reject the faith - sinning doesnt take you out of Islam but could make you end up in a not so nice place in the next world if they dont repent sincerly that is.

"secular muslims" - never heard anybody calling themselves that.
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Zafran
06-03-2009, 11:38 PM
That same logic should apply to Muslims. Islam is not an ethnicity or race, it isn't a biological trait or hereditary
your right its a choice of sumbitting to God sincerly - if people take it as a joke then the joke will be on them in the next world.......unless they repent in this world sincerly.
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glo
06-04-2009, 12:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
But in what 'group' do these 'secular Muslims' belong? Why do we even still consider them Muslim if they don't practice? My grandparents were Christians, but that doesn't mean I am now a 'secular Christian'. I am just not a Christian, full stop.

That same logic should apply to Muslims. Islam is not an ethnicity or race, it isn't a biological trait or hereditary.
I think the social pressure to call yourself a Christian has largely diminished in European countries.
As people become more confident to openly state that they are not Christians, the ones who do refer to themselves as Christians are more likely to be actual followers of the faith.

So although statistically the numbers of Christians are reducing in Europe, they probably more honestly and realistically reflect the true numbers of actual practising Christians ...

Arguably, those who only follow religious tradition because they are 'made to' (either by parents, peers or society as a whole) aren't real followers of the faith anyway ...
I guess that thinking would apply to other faiths too.

Peace :)
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north_malaysian
06-04-2009, 08:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
for starters prevent additional Muslim immigration
LOL... we'll convert the natives then.... via internet!!!
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Trumble
06-04-2009, 11:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
We don't die
We multiply
I must admit that worries me, too. Don't get me wrong, my problem is with population growth in general not with a particular religion.

The world simply has too many people, a situation that is getting exponentially worse and IMO a significant reduction, over time, to perhaps half the current level is desperately needed. Suffering, famine and war over scarce resources will be the only result unless attitudes are changed. Note, 'attitudes'.. people need to be persuaded on this one, not forced.
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Zafran
06-04-2009, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I must admit that worries me, too. Don't get me wrong, my problem is with population growth in general not with a particular religion.

The world simply has too many people, a situation that is getting exponentially worse and IMO a significant reduction, over time, to perhaps half the current level is desperately needed. Suffering, famine and war over scarce resources will be the only result unless attitudes are changed. Note, 'attitudes'.. people need to be persuaded on this one, not forced.
Yes people need to scarifice and reduce there hednostic consumption. Its all about the attitudes as you said. The suffering and wars are already taking place over sacrce resources in some parts of the world.
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Chuck
06-04-2009, 11:59 PM
Islamophobes
Reply

Beardo
06-05-2009, 02:42 AM
Muslim Demographics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 08:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
right - i thought you menat stopping the hedonstic lifestyle
I'v been thinking about that and you're perfectly right. europeans should stop their hedonistic lifestyles, it's what brought them into this multicultural mess in the first place. Workers were imported ebcause natives would not do the dirty jobs. It's time they reconsider and I think the bst way to do that is to cutt off all the social benefits big time. This will make everyone do whatever job there is plus it will prevent big families, hence limiting the birth rates of certain minorities.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 10:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
How is it a serious problem? Do you see Muslims as a threat? Can you not tolerate us Muslims? On the other hand, am I making too many assumptions?
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Azy
06-09-2009, 12:51 PM
Zafran, I think you need to think up a new post, you've used the same one about 10 times already.

Even though you've repeated it so much I still don't understand your solution.
Western women should make more 'sacrifices' like Somali women? Does having a greater population than other ethnicities/religions/nationalities mean that you somehow 'win'? Could you explain to me how having 8 kids for which you would struggle to provide is selfless while a family with two working parents trying to provide a better standard of living to their 1/2 children is selfish?

Strange that those Somalis come here when Somalia must be such a great place to live.
Maybe we should all take your advice and start having more kids (like the Somalis), then in 2100 we can all celebrate when the UK population is 600 million and people are starving and killing each other for food (like the Somalis).
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Blackpool
06-09-2009, 01:50 PM
No religious growth comes anywhere near the growth of secularism. The rise of secularism is huge is increasing. Britain used to be Christian but that has declined. This is a secularist country and with the way things are heading the future Britain will remain secularist.

Being a secularist doesn't mean that we don't believe in God but we don't think of God the same way religious people do. I live my life, I look after my family, I don't hurt His people, I don't steal, murder, burgle, rape. I follow the laws of common sense. I have done nothing that warrants hell. Despite being a secularist I feel very close to God and I wear a crucifix around my neck.
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Zafran
06-09-2009, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'v been thinking about that and you're perfectly right. europeans should stop their hedonistic lifestyles, it's what brought them into this multicultural mess in the first place. Workers were imported ebcause natives would not do the dirty jobs. It's time they reconsider and I think the bst way to do that is to cutt off all the social benefits big time. This will make everyone do whatever job there is plus it will prevent big families, hence limiting the birth rates of certain minorities.
nice dream plan - has no bearing with reality what so ever.
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Zafran
06-09-2009, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Zafran, I think you need to think up a new post, you've used the same one about 10 times already.

Even though you've repeated it so much I still don't understand your solution.
Western women should make more 'sacrifices' like Somali women? Does having a greater population than other ethnicities/religions/nationalities mean that you somehow 'win'? Could you explain to me how having 8 kids for which you would struggle to provide is selfless while a family with two working parents trying to provide a better standard of living to their 1/2 children is selfish?

Strange that those Somalis come here when Somalia must be such a great place to live.
Maybe we should all take your advice and start having more kids (like the Somalis), then in 2100 we can all celebrate when the UK population is 600 million and people are starving and killing each other for food (like the Somalis).
There you go you understand - start having more children and stop complianing its simple as that - I've said this before - sacrifice vs Hedonism your choice - so far its Hedonism.

Furthermore nobody was talking about "winning" or "losing" - maybe you should go back and check what all the talk was about - the simple fact that somali women have more children becasue the scarifice there life for that - They produce children and are willing to do the crap jobs - just like most immigerants. Otherside the main population wants to be single, not marraid - no children because the "tie" them down and career minded and are not willing to do the low jobs - this is the main image promoted in the society and what the majority of the population is aiming for.

specifically when we were talking about hedonism it was about homosexuality/ legalised prostitution which whatsthepoin brought up.

It would be better if you looked at the whole thread was about again instead asking questions which nobody was talking about what so ever.

edit - somalis in a mess i believe because of political instability and not high birth rates.
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 02:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
nice dream plan - has no bearing with reality what so ever.
Explain why not.
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Zafran
06-09-2009, 02:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Explain why not.
two reasons

1 - benefits cant be cut not in this economic crisis - we are expecting unemployment to go up - that would anger the people

2 - Multiculturalism isnt just created by immigerants but also Brits who were born here and are citizens of this country.

Nice dream though.

edit - you also have to change the perception of the people about the low jobs and to sacrifice there fast single - no breeding - high career minded lifestyle.
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
two reasons

1 - benefits cant be cut not in this economic crisis - we are expecting unemployment to go up - that would anger the people

2 - Multiculturalism isnt just created by immigerants but also Brits who were born here and are citizens of this country.

Nice dream though.

edit - you also have to change the perception of the people about the low jobs and to sacrifice there fast single - no breeding - high career minded lifestyle.
Well, what I'm trying to change is the system, where people can reject available jobs and still receive benefits.
This would have nothing to do with multiculturalism, and I'm perfectly happy with British citizens practicing new ideas such as Islam or communism.
It's good people are ambitious, it they weren't the west wouldn't be as rich as it is now.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 03:41 PM
I do not seem to understand what the fuss is about the Muslim population.

What harm shall occur if the Muslim population shall continue to grow?
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I do not seem to understand what the fuss is about the Muslim population.

What harm shall occur if the Muslim population shall continue to grow?
The UK will become a Muslim majority country.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The UK will become a Muslim majority country.
And? What is wrong with that?
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Zafran
06-09-2009, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The UK will become a Muslim majority country.
no it wont - if it is its going to happen probably be in 200 years or more and we'll be dead by then.

There are also less muslims in the UK then other countries anyway.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 04:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
no it wont - if it is its going to happen probably be in 200 years or more and we'll be dead by then.

There are also less muslims in the UK then other countries anyway.
Let say if it was the case that the majority of the population in the UK shall be made up of Muslims.

What is going to happen? I am curious to hear ''Whathepoint'' member has to say.
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Zafran
06-09-2009, 04:15 PM
changed my mind
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
no it wont - if it is its going to happen probably be in 200 years or more and we'll be dead by then.
We won't be alive to wintess any significant effect of climate change either but we are still trying to prevent it.
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Let say if it was the case that the majority of the population in the UK shall be made up of Muslims.

What is going to happen? I am curious to hear ''Whathepoint'' member has to say.
Depending on the avergae religiosity, they will try to form islamic governance.
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Zafran
06-09-2009, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
We won't be alive to wintess any significant effect of climate change either but we are still trying to prevent it.
climate chnage could wipe out the planet and the human race - Muslim majority wouldnt do that - its actually a sick camparision.
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
climate chnage could wipe out the planet and the human race - Muslim majority wouldnt do that - its actually a sick camparision.
Yes it is and apologize if it may have offended you, but it was the only long term effect crisis that I could think of.
Climate change and migration are connected though, if serious climate change should occur, millions of Africans will be fleeing northwards.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Depending on the avergae religiosity, they will try to form islamic governance.
Specifically what is wrong with that?

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
We won't be alive to wintess any significant effect of climate change either but we are still trying to prevent it.
I suppose the question is how you are going to prevent?
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Zafran
06-09-2009, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes it is and apologize if it may have offended you, but it was the only long term effect crisis that I could think of.
Climate change and migration are connected though, if serious climate change should occur, millions of Africans will be fleeing northwards.
what if its the other way round the north becomes too cold or becomes flooded? Then where do you think they will be going?
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Specifically what is wrong with that?



I suppose the question is how you are going to prevent?
everything is wrong with that.
Well, stopping immigration and somehow try to reduce birth rates in non-hedosnistic somali women.
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 05:25 PM
Here is an idea, why don't you harness them all and force them into sterility?

Could you be more obnoxious than you've been on this thread? enough already!
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
what if its the other way round the north becomes too cold or becomes flooded? Then where do you think they will be going?
Southwards, southern states, Cental America, Italy, North Africa. Wherever they will be accepted and wherever their money will take them.
But luckily that's not the trend..
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Here is an idea, why don't you harness them all and force them into sterility?

Could you be more obnoxious than you've been on this thread? enough already!
I don't wish to destroy liberal democracy in order to preserve it.
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جوري
06-09-2009, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't wish to destroy liberal democracy in order to preserve it.
Then stop making asinine suggestions since that is exactly what you are proposing even if you don't spell it out!
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crayon
06-09-2009, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Here is an idea, why don't you harness them all and force them into sterility?

Could you be more obnoxious than you've been on this thread? enough already!
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
"Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'"

Oh the drama.

Neuter 'em, I say!
:statisfie
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Then stop making asinine suggestions since that is exactly what you are proposing even if you don't spell it out!
No, I'm proposing to end immigration as well as certain social benefits.
I'm not a ****ing nazi.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
everything is wrong with that.
No point saying ''everything is wrong with that.''

Are you suggesting that you do not even know what you feel is wrong with an Islamic government?

Personally I highly doubt there shall ever be an Islamic government.
Insecurities maybe?

Well, stopping immigration and somehow try to reduce birth rates in non-hedosnistic somali women.
Stopping immigration just for Muslims?

The law applies to everyone. If your trying to reduce birth rate, then everyone has to abide by it, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
:statisfie
you guys are both extremists.
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
No point saying ''everything is wrong with that.''

Are you suggesting that you do not even know what you feel is wrong with an Islamic government?

Personally I highly doubt there shall ever be an Islamic government.
Insecurities maybe?



Stopping immigration just for Muslims?

The law applies to everyone. If your trying to reduce birth rate, then everyone has to abide by it, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.
Of course. At the moment I am able to enjoy all the ebnefits of the curent liberal democratic system, so are Muslims and every minority out there. I'm rather happy with what we have now and I don't want it to change.
Well, the native population already has low birth rates so it wouldn't affect them.
Reply

crayon
06-09-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
you guys are both extremists.
Look who's talking mr. "let's banish muslims from europe before they take over the world.":rollseyes
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No, I'm proposing to end immigration as well as certain social benefits.
I'm not a ****ing nazi.

In order for immigration to come to an end (although I personally can't understand why anyone would migrate to Europe) Europe would have to take any influence it has in said countries.. You can't occupy, pillage, and leave places in utter burnout and not expect it to come bite you in the ass, although admittedly England especially had a history of doing so, especially in areas like Hong kong-- imposing open door policies on China, forcing them into Opium addiction. Or taking completely over the diamond mines of south Africa.. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, and then whine till pigs fly ..

in the end it isn't about money, Caucasian(ness) or power... it is about the ability to survive it all!

You simply reap what you sow!

all the best
Reply

Zafran
06-09-2009, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No, I'm proposing to end immigration as well as certain social benefits.
I'm not a ****ing nazi.

Your not a nazis - your a wannabe Nazis.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Your not a nazis - your a wannabe Nazis.
More immigrants, more nazis, more social tension etc. And end to immigration would prevent that to a significant extent.
Reply

Zafran
06-09-2009, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
In order for immigration to come to an end (although I personally can't understand why anyone would migrate to Europe) Europe would have to take any influence it has in said countries.. You can't occupy, pillage, and leave places in utter burnout and not expect it to come bite you in the ass, although admittedly England especially had a history of doing so, especially in areas like Hong kong-- imposing open door policies on China, forcing them into Opium addiction. Or taking completely over the diamond mines of south Africa.. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, and then whine till pigs fly ..

in the end it isn't about money, Caucasian(ness) or power... it is about the ability to survive it all!

You simply reap what you sow!

all the best

Later on they gave free passports to the people of hong kong, south africa and some parts of India/Pakistan - its one fo the reasons why so many immigerants came in to the UK in the 1950s -60s - the UK needed labour after the war - the immigerants needed a better economic life - mutual intrests.
Reply

Zafran
06-09-2009, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
More immigrants, more nazis, more social tension etc. And end to immigration would prevent that to a significant extent.
You cant end immigartion - thats not realistic you can only reduce it and change peoples perception take the low jobs and reduce there hednositc life style. The Nazis will always exist as long as multicultrualism exits in europe. They will increase in times of economic meltdowns.
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Clover
06-09-2009, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Specifically what is wrong with that?
I have something against Islam Law if it tried to be established in the US, but other then that, nothing lol.
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Later on they gave free passports to the people of hong kong, south africa and some parts of India/Pakistan - its one fo the reasons why so many immigerants came in to the UK in the 1950s -60s - the UK needed labour after the war - the immigerants needed a better economic life - mutual intrests.

indeed, but they didn't recognize them as British citizens, they simply used them, as front line infantry in every sector, you know the expendable.. I find England especially to be the most loathsome country in the world.. I really have no respect for them, or their policies.. It has always been my belief that England should be divided up amongst the people it occupied.. and imagine that, for even the U.S had to get its independence from that little gnat of an island!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You cant end immigartion - thats not realistic you can only reduce it and change peoples perception take the low jobs and reduce there hednositc life style. The Nazis will always exist as long as multicultrualism exits in europe. They will increase in times of economic meltdowns.
That's what I'm suggesting.
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Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
indeed, but they didn't recognize them as British citizens, they simply used them, as front line infantry in every sector, you know the expendable.. I find England especially to be the most loathsome country in the world.. I really have no respect for them, or their policies.. It has always been my belief that England should be divided up amongst the people it occupied.. and imagine that, for even the U.S had to get its independence from that little gnat of an island!
Would you suggest the same for Turkey?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-09-2009, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I have something against Islam Law if it tried to be established in the US, but other then that, nothing lol.
I agree, I don't mind Muslims and as a minority they should have all the rights and priviliges they want. But I wouldn't want them to become the majority.
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Clover
06-09-2009, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I agree, I don't mind Muslims and as a minority they should have all the rights and priviliges they want. But I wouldn't want them to become the majority.
I don't care if they became the majority, sure I might prefer a Christian minority (and I might dream of a Buddhist/Confucianist/Taoist majority haha) but I do not really care in the end. If they tried ot establish Sharia Law then I would oppose the supporters of it till I am dead, with respect of course.
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Of course. At the moment I am able to enjoy all the ebnefits of the curent liberal democratic system, so are Muslims and every minority out there. I'm rather happy with what we have now and I don't want it to change.
I understand. There is really no need to worry. There is a very low possibility of an Islamic government being formed. Lets say even if an Islamic government is formed. Freedom of speech shall still exist. It still shall be a democratic system because we vote for our leader in general.


format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Your not a nazis - your a wannabe Nazis.
I would not call him a Nazi. He simply does not want an Islamic government. He is not racist. I do not approve of his methods of immigration and birth control.

Personally, I believe religion is for an individual. A government should represent all the individuals that live here.

Unfortunately, religious leaders may not represent other minorities such as Atheists, if that was the case.

I have something against Islam Law if it tried to be established in the US, but other then that, nothing lol.
What particular Islamic law? There is so many of them.
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Clover
06-09-2009, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
What particular Islamic law? There is so many of them.
Any of them that take away the freedom of any American Citizen or force them to do something contradicting to their rights, and anything that gives Islam a edge over other religions.
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Would you suggest the same for Turkey?

No, Just England..
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Any of them that take away the freedom of any American Citizen or force them to do something contradicting to their rights, and anything that gives Islam a edge over other religions.
If there were an Islamic government, we would not force you to convert to a Muslim or fulfil certain practices that are done by a Muslim.

Majority of the Shariah law is based upon Muslims.
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Clover
06-09-2009, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
If there were an Islamic government, we would not force you to convert to a Muslim or fulfil certain practices that are done by a Muslim.

Majority of the Shariah law is based upon Muslims.
That doesn't matter, if it does any of what I stated, then I'd fight against it with all my might till killed, cause it threatens America's democracy that my family has been fighting for since we fought England for independance.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
That doesn't matter, if it does any of what I stated, then I'd fight against it with all my might till killed, cause it threatens America's democracy that my family has been fighting for since we fought England for independance.
Your rights will not be affected because majority of the Shariah law is applicable to Muslims. You’re not Muslims, so it is not applicable for you. Therefore, your rights are not affected.


How does it threaten democracy? In a Islamic based country, you can still vote for your government?
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Clover
06-09-2009, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Your rights will not be affected because majority of the Shariah law is applicable to Muslims. You’re not Muslims, so it is not applicable for you. Therefore, your rights are not affected.


How does it threaten democracy? In a Islamic based country, you can still vote for your government?
If it gives Muslims rights over others, or an edge in anyway, then my rights are affected.

I do not know, thats why I said if it does, not that it does. Maybe so, but if the government is tainted by Islam edges of any sort, then it's not a real democracy.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
If it gives Muslims rights over others, or an edge in anyway, then my rights are affected.
It won't. For example, all Muslims are told to pay Zakat. A part of the five pillars of Islam. You will not need to do that, since you are not a Muslim.


I do not know, thats why I said if it does, not that it does. Maybe so, but if the government is tainted by Islam edges of any sort, then it's not a real democracy.
An Islamic government elected is democratic process. You fail to explain how it is not democracy.

A democratic government shall represent all the views of people. Whether Muslims or not Muslims.
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Clover
06-09-2009, 06:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
It won't. For example, all Muslims are told to pay Zakat. A part of the five pillars of Islam. You will not need to do that, since you are not a Muslim.




An Islamic government elected is democratic process. You fail to explain how it is not democracy.

A democratic government shall represent all the views of people. Whether Muslims or not Muslims.
That doesn't affect my rights, correct.

I AM NOT SAYING IT DOES. (I caps that cause you seem to think I am saying it is).

I am not going to keep repeating myself.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
That doesn't affect my rights, correct.

I AM NOT SAYING IT DOES. (I caps that cause you seem to think I am saying it is).

I am not going to keep repeating myself.
Sure.

Care to explain how Shariah law WILL affect your rights?
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 06:16 PM
I don't think you actually understand what democracy means?
by definition: A political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them..

In Islam folks elect (mobaya3a) their leader to govern by Islamic jurisprudence.
If the majority of people desire to be governed by Islamic jurisprudence then you are not at all stepping outside the definition of democracy..

Now, I'd refrain from you commenting on what Islamic jurisprudence is and what it compasses, since like medical or law school it takes years to be a scholar and knowledgeable in.
Reply

Clover
06-09-2009, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Sure.

Care to explain how Shariah law WILL affect your rights?
You apparently have no clue what my posts were about. I was telling you if they somehow did, then I'd fight them, I never said they did, I have repeated that and I will not again. This ends the conversation.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't think you actually understand what democracy means?
by definition: A political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them..

In Islam folks elect (mobaya3a) their leader to govern by Islamic jurisprudence.
If the majority of people desire to be governed by Islamic jurisprudence then you are not at all stepping outside the definition of democracy..

Now, I'd refrain from you commenting on what Islamic jurisprudence is and what it compasses, since like medical or law school it takes years to be a scholar and knowledgeable in.
Yes, thank you, I am a 10th grader who takes Honors US History, and I didn't know what democracy is. (sarcasm is dripping off the mouth after the foam).

I didn't plan on commenting on it, cause I have no clue what the word jurisprudence is.
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't think you actually understand what democracy means?
by definition: A political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them..

In Islam folks elect (mobaya3a) their leader to govern by Islamic jurisprudence.
If the majority of people desire to be governed by Islamic jurisprudence then you are not at all stepping outside the definition of democracy..

Now, I'd refrain from you commenting on what Islamic jurisprudence is and what it compasses, since like medical or law school it takes years to be a scholar and knowledgeable in.
Sure.

I was taking examples from Muslim populated countries like Iran. A Muslim country, however they elected a party to represent them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
You apparently have no clue what my posts were about. I was telling you if they somehow did, then I'd fight them, I never said they did, I have repeated that and I will not again. This ends the conversation.
Sorry if I misunderstood the point you were trying to portray.
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover



Yes, thank you, I am a 10th grader who takes Honors US History, and I didn't know what democracy is. (sarcasm is dripping off the mouth after the foam).

I didn't plan on commenting on it, cause I have no clue what the word jurisprudence is.

You fail to reconcile your understanding of Democracy with why Islam is the anti-democracy?

Jurisprudence: is a branch of philosophy concerned with the law and the principles that lead courts to make the decisions they do...

Which if indeed if you learned, you might just find it more sane, than (amongst other things) a trial by 12 under-educated idiots lifted off the streets to judge your fate...

Have you see a doctor on trial? do you think the 12 jurors in such a case are ever of the doctor's 'peers'? just as an example..

You can't comment on a system, you don't know much about, save what they are teaching you on fox news..

all the best
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Sure.

I was taking examples from Muslim populated countries like Iran. A Muslim country, however they elected a party to represent them.
.

salaamz akhi, my comment was to Clover not you, my humble apologies..

:w:
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
salaamz akhi, my comment was to Clover not you, my humble apologies..

:w:
It's fine. XD

As a brief overview, I think some Westerners have insecurities about Islam. They believe Islam shall take over and take away people's rights. :/
Reply

Clover
06-09-2009, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You fail to reconcile your understanding of Democracy with why Islam is the anti-democracy?

Jurisprudence: is a branch of philosophy concerned with the law and the principles that lead courts to make the decisions they do...

Which if indeed if you learned, you might just find it more sane, than (amongst other things) a trial by 12 under-educated idiots lifted off the streets to judge your fate...

Have you see a doctor on trial? do you think the 12 jurors in such a case are ever of the doctor's 'peers'? just as an example..

You can't comment on a system, you don't know much about, save what they are teaching you on fox news..

all the best
I NEVER SAID ISLAM WAS ANTI-DEMOCRACY. I said if any of its laws were, I'd fight it, I have had to repeat that twice, now thrice.

How would you know all 12 are under-educated?

I never commented on it, be respectful.
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I NEVER SAID ISLAM WAS ANTI-DEMOCRACY.
Calm down.

I said if any of its laws were, I'd fight it, I have had to repeat that twice, now thrice.
We got the message.
Reply

Clover
06-09-2009, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Calm down.



We got the message.
I am calm, I was using Caps so maybe she would see the text.

Get it, Got it, Good :exhausted
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I NEVER SAID ISLAM WAS ANTI-DEMOCRACY. I said if any of its laws were, I'd fight it, I have had to repeat that twice, now thrice.

How would you know all 12 are under-educated?

I never commented on it, be respectful.
Greetings..

I comment because I have been called to Jury duty, and every time they have specifically weeded out, anyone working in health care, anyone with a law degree, anyone who is a professor with a PhD in any discipline that is capable of swaying the body of jurors.. then you end up with folks being awarded millions for a cup of coffee that is hot that has spilled on them, or for tripping because they wore high heels, or because their panties had pearls that flew over and knocked their eyes out.. sadly the folks who award idiots such sums of money, don't understand that it usually comes out of the tax payers pocket especially if a suit against the city with a substantial sum (just as an example of course):

http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/i...94_a_jury.html

I think folks fear what they don't know, not because it is a threat to them, but because it is unfamiliar.. sometimes the unfamiliar is better and more sensical, though you are certainly entitled to your opinion..

all the best
Reply

Clover
06-09-2009, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Greetings..

I comment because I have been called to Jury duty, and every time they have specifically weeded out, anyone working in health care, anyone with a law degree, anyone who is a professor with a PhD in any discipline that is capable of swaying the body of jurors.. then you end up with folks being awarded millions for a cup of coffee that is hot that has spilled on them, or for tripping because they wore high heels, or because their panties had pearls that flew over and knocked their eyes out.. sadly the folks who award idiots such sums of money, don't understand that it usually comes out of the tax payers pocket especially if a suit against the city with a substantial sum (just as an example of course):

http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/i...94_a_jury.html

I think folks fear what they don't know, not because it is a threat to them, but because it is unfamiliar.. sometimes the unfamiliar is better and more sensical, though you are certainly entitled to your opinion..

all the best
I cannot help that, I have no right to vote...yet.

If you think I fear Islam, then your wrong. I fear that Islam's laws might make democracy no longer fair, and make the US turn into a dictatorship or something else, and make our constitution wrong. I do not know all of Islam's laws, thats why I said IF they do, not that they do.
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Pomak
06-10-2009, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I cannot help that, I have no right to vote...yet.

If you think I fear Islam, then your wrong. I fear that Islam's laws might make democracy no longer fair, and make the US turn into a dictatorship or something else, and make our constitution wrong. I do not know all of Islam's laws, thats why I said IF they do, not that they do.
How about your don't talk about things that you don't know anything about?

Easy solution.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 09:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
An Islamic government elected is democratic process. You fail to explain how it is not democracy.

A democratic government shall represent all the views of people. Whether Muslims or not Muslims.
Yes but once the caliphate is established it ceases to be a democracy.
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Clover
06-10-2009, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
How about your don't talk about things that you don't know anything about?

Easy solution.
Oh, that's a very intelligent statement...
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Azy
06-10-2009, 09:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes but once the caliphate is established it ceases to be a democracy.
I have a funny feeling it also wouldn't be a liberal democracy at any point.
Reply

Muezzin
06-10-2009, 10:35 AM
We've gone from birth-rates to caliphates.

Maybe we should stick to the original subject.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 10:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
We've gone from birth-rates to caliphates.

Maybe we should stick to the original subject.
The only issue some people ahve with Muslims population rising 10 times faster than the rest of society is that in the distant future Muslims may form a Muslim government, perhaps even establihs a caliphate.
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 10:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes but once the caliphate is established it ceases to be a democracy.
Now I really doubt there shall be a Caliphate. Maybe in the future but not in our lifetime.

The last Caliphate was Abdul Mejid II of Turkey 1922-1924.

It all depends on which political sect of Islam you follow.

format_quote Originally Posted by Wiki
Sunni Islam dictates that the caliph should be selected by Shura[1], elected by Muslims or their representatives

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I have a funny feeling it also wouldn't be a liberal democracy at any point.
Maybe insecurities since you are not aware of the topic.
Reply

S_87
06-10-2009, 10:55 AM
I said if any of its laws were, I'd fight it, I have had to repeat that twice, now thrice.
what are you opinions on things like death punishment to the rapist/murderer and interest in borrowing money being forbidden?
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Now I really doubt there shall be a Caliphate. Maybe in the future but not in our lifetime.
Let's not take chances.
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Let's not take chances.
So you are going to achieve this by reducing the Muslim population.

Good luck with that lol.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
So you are going to achieve this by reducing the Muslim population.

Good luck with that lol.
Well, I plan to stop immigration, hope that the daughters of that somali women don't have 8 children each and that the Muslims youth will be increasingly secularized.
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Amadeus85
06-10-2009, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Let's not take chances.
Why not? A muslim state, Caliphate, in a muslim world, is a good thing for muslims, of course unless they are ready for this. The islamic state gives the guarantee of the eternal existence of the islamic principles and rules in the muslim world.
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 02:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, I plan to stop immigration, hope that the daughters of that somali women don't have 8 children each and that the Muslims youth will be increasingly secularized.

You just agreed it was impossible to "stop immigration" yesterday?
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Amadeus85
06-10-2009, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You just agreed it was impossible to "stop immigration" yesterday?
In a liberal democracy with neo liberal economy it is as possible as winning World of Warcraft in one day. Its just illusions.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You just agreed it was impossible to "stop immigration" yesterday?
Yes and that's why I normally use the term limit rather than stop.
but it's a democracy, laws can be passed that make it possible. It wouldn't exactly fit the idea of libertarian society but that's no the model most countries of Europe are based on anyway.
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
hope that the daughters of that somali women don't have 8 children each
That sounds like genocide. Preventing a particular ethnic background to grow, by imposing birth control?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Why not? A muslim state, Caliphate, in a muslim world, is a good thing for muslims, of course unless they are ready for this. The islamic state gives the guarantee of the eternal existence of the islamic principles and rules in the muslim world.
Yes and they can have it in the Muslims word not here.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
That sounds like genocide. Preventing a particular ethnic background to grow, by imposing birth control?
No, and I said it's what I hope and I believe statistically second and any further gneration of immigrants dos have fewer children than their predecessors.
And I said something about limiting state benefits that would adversly affect the country's birth rates in natives and non-natives alike.
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No, and I said it's what I hope and I believe statistically second and any further gneration of immigrants dos have fewer children than their predecessors.
And I said something about limiting state benefits that would adversly affect the country's birth rates in natives and non-natives alike.
And how are you going to achieve all this? Are you member of a political party?

It is very difficult to change the structure of a country. The things your stating require an Act of Parliament.
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes and they can have it in the Muslims word not here.
we would if your western colonists woudnt interfere - the govermnets back the tyrants up for a more stable mid east so that they can benefit from it - they dont want a Khlifate there - even if they get democratically elected - the west would be against it - that woudl also mean the militery bases have to disappear too in the mid east.
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
And how are you going to achieve all this? Are you member of a political party?

It is very difficult to change the structure of a country. The things your stating require an Act of Parliament.
whatsthe point is dreaming and panicking - what he doent understand is that they need immigrants - thats the real problem - otherwise there would be a serious problem on the economy - far worse then it is.

secodnaly he doesnt understand that second generation muslims and far more religous then there fathers. He realy is living in a dream world.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 02:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
And how are you going to achieve all this? Are you member of a political party?

It is very difficult to change the structure of a country. The things your stating require an Act of Parliament.
Several countries in Europe have intoduced laws limiting immigration, increasing the criteria for both immigrants and asylum seekers, preventing family reunifications, banishing illegals etc. It doesn't take the BNP to do that.
And for the youth getting secularized and minorities' birth rates decreasins happens by itself andy governmental interference would imho have an adverse effect.
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
whatsthe point is dreaming and panicking - what he doent understand is that they need immigrants - thats the real problem - otherwise there would be a serious problem on the economy - far worse then it is.

secodnaly he doesnt understand that second generation muslims and far more religous then there fathers. He realy is living in a dream world.
I agree.

The UK needs immigrants, whether they like it or not. A lot of doctors come from India. They benefit the NHS system.

Each action he wishes to impose has long-term implications that shall not benefit the society.

It will not improve international relationship at all, which is essential if UK needs to surivive. Trade shall suffer from a result of these immigration laws.
Reply

Amadeus85
06-10-2009, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes and they can have it in the Muslims word not here.
In democracy, is it possible to say which civilization is more valuable? I think that democratic standards allow 50 millions of european muslims to have their religious law practiced. Its a demand of the Freedom and Equality rule. And we can not talk about limitting one population of a society in a democracy. How would it sound if we said- "Let's stop immigration of jews to Europe. They are dangerous". or "Lets stop immigration of black people to Europe. They dont wanna work". In democracy we can not limit any group of population by race/religion. These are our values, that we chose and who cares if that would mean creating completely different Europe than the continent where You and me were born. People are all brothers and we are all equal.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
whatsthe point is dreaming and panicking - what he doent understand is that they need immigrants - thats the real problem - otherwise there would be a serious problem on the economy - far worse then it is.

secodnaly he doesnt understand that second generation muslims and far more religous then there fathers. He realy is living in a dream world.
We don't need them now, unemployment is high already, workers are being sent home actually.
Can you prove that the current Muslim youth is far more religious than previous generations?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
In democracy, is it possible to say which civilization is more valuable? I think that democratic standards allow 50 millions of european muslims to have their religious law practiced. Its a demand of the Freedom and Equality rule. And we can not talk about limitting one population of a society in a democracy. How would it sound if we said- "Let's stop immigration of jews to Europe. They are dangerous". or "Lets stop immigration of black people to Europe. They dont wanna work". In democracy we can not limit any group of population by race/religion. These are our values, that we chose and who cares if that would mean creating completely different Europe that the continent where You and me were born. People are all brothers and we are all equal.
Democracy doesn't not equal liberalism, multiculturalism, gay rights or anything.
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Can you prove that the current Muslim youth is far more religious than previous generations?
Can you disprove this claim? There is no statistical measures to disprove or prove this claim.

However from personal experience, it does feel younger generation of Muslims have become quite religion. Personally this is coming from my experience.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 03:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Can you disprove this claim? There is no statistical measures to disprove or prove this claim.

However from personal experience, it does feel younger generation of Muslims have become quite religion. Personally this is coming from my experience.
From mine it's quite the opposite, I see young Muslims drinking, fornicating outside wedlock, listening to music and lots of other haraam stuff. But we do move in different circles so our experiences don't count.
But from what I've seen in the thread "Muslims in your country", several have claimed Most Muslims in their country were non-practicing.
Reply

Zafran
06-10-2009, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
We don't need them now, unemployment is high already, workers are being sent home actually.
Can you prove that the current Muslim youth is far more religious than previous generations?
Yes there was a UK documenary that showed the the next gernation are far more religous then the previous genrations - i also know this from personal experinece. Which you probaly have little of.

You need immigrants - not all are being sent back only the once that dont meet the criteria.
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
From mine it's quite the opposite, I see young Muslims drinking, fornicating outside wedlock, listening to music and lots of other haraam stuff. But we do move in different circles so our experiences don't count.
But from what I've seen in the thread "Muslims in your country", several have claimed Most Muslims in their country were non-practicing.
Intresting yet you stll worry and panick lol.

ps - how do you know they fornicate?
Reply

GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
From mine it's quite the opposite, I see young Muslims drinking, fornicating outside wedlock, listening to music and lots of other haraam stuff. But we do move in different circles so our experiences don't count.
Yes I agree, personal experiences do not count.

But from what I've seen in the thread "Muslims in your country", several have claimed Most Muslims in their country were non-practicing.
Of course, Muslims are not angels/saints. They do make mistakes. At least they have come to realise they have made those mistakes and come to the forum to correct those mistakes.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Intresting yet you stll worry and panick lol.

ps - how do you know they fornicate?
I do, tehre are still Muslims immigrating and the trent may revert.
Because tehy chase girls, as well as boys actually, and they're not married.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Of course, Muslims are not angels/saints. They do make mistakes. At least they have come to realise they have made those mistakes and come to the forum to correct those mistakes.
5000 out of 30 million.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Yes there was a UK documenary that showed the the next gernation are far more religous then the previous genrations - i also know this from personal experinece. Which you probaly have little of.

You need immigrants - not all are being sent back only the once that dont meet the criteria.
Well if you're right stopping immigration is even more crucial than I thought.
Yeah I was wrong there I was refering to imported workers, those that don't apply for a resident permit or a citizenship.
We need to increase the criteria, no more unskilled labour, family reunions etc, only highly educated individuals, preferably from Latin America, India, China.
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well if you're right stopping immigration is even more crucial than I thought.
Yeah I was wrong there I was refering to imported workers, those that don't apply for a resident permit or a citizenship.
We need to increase the criteria, no more unskilled labour, family reunions etc, only highly educated individuals, preferably from Latin America, India, China.
you did need them - you need the once that can do the low jobs - furthermore you cant stop family re unions.
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
5000 out of 30 million.
Do those figures come from authentic sources?

The only way to prove whether a younger generation have become religious or not religious, is to carry out a research, done my impartial group.

Not all Muslims use forums to deal with their problems. Some ask family members for help, Imam for advice or even deal with the problem by themselves.
Reply

Amadeus85
06-10-2009, 03:18 PM
I wonder is it posible in liberal democracy to say that liberal democracy is more valuable than islamic state? I seriously doubt it, as multiculturalism means that all cultures are equal, catholic civilization is equal to civilization of Mays, and protestant civilization is equal to civilization of bushmen from Africa. Saying otherwise is intolerant. In our system, the people decide whats wrong and bad, whats truth and false.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
you did need them - you need the once that can do the low jobs - furthermore you cant stop family re unions.
That's why I'm proposing limited social benefits programmes that would force hedonostic as you'd call them ritish citizens to do dirty jobs as well.
there ahve been no laws to explicitly ban them, however certain countries have introduced higher limits for an immigrant to bring their spouse into the country.
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That's why I'm proposing limited social benefits programmes that would force hedonostic as you'd call them ritish citizens to do dirty jobs as well.
there ahve been no laws to explicitly ban them, however certain countries have introduced higher limits for an immigrant to bring their spouse into the country.
You cant propose limited benefits as said before - hednostic behavour does not come from the benefit takers now does it - it comes for the people that are promoted to be high carrer minded, single and unwed.

theres no way are these guys going to do low jobs - they will believe that they are better qualified then that - creating a angry public once again.

Thats intresting about spouses - but again you can do nothing about people marrying abroad.
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 03:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I wonder is it posible in liberal democracy to say that liberal democracy is more valuable than islamic state? I seriously doubt it, as multiculturalism means that all cultures are equal, catholic civilization is equal to civilization of Mays, and protestant civilization is equal to civilization of bushmen from Africa. Saying otherwise is intolerant. In our system, the people decide whats wrong and bad, whats truth and false.
no it doesnt you openly misunderstand liberal democracy - like all governing sytems its there to protect itself and it will say that other forms of governing are wrong by labeling them anti democratic - end of story.

Multiculturalism means many cultures and civs living under one governing system - that happend in many cultures around the world in the past not just in libveral democracy.
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Whatsthepoint
06-10-2009, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You cant propose limited benefits as said before - hednostic behavour does not come from the benefit takers now does it - it comes for the people that are promoted to be high carrer minded, single and unwed.

theres no way are these guys going to do low jobs - they will believe that they are better qualified then that - creating a angry public once again.

Thats intresting about spouses - but again you can do nothing about people marrying abroad.
Refusing to do a job because they believe it's bellow them is hedonistic in my dictionary and it should be limited. Child benfits as well.
Reply

Zafran
06-10-2009, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Refusing to do a job because they believe it's bellow them is hedonistic in my dictionary and it should be limited. Child benfits as well.

??? - how is child benefits going to effect people who have no children. Hednostic in your book but its called meritocracy - if they believe they are Qualified for a high job and believe they have the best qualifications for it - then theres noway are they going to do a low job.
Reply

Muezzin
06-10-2009, 07:02 PM
Okay, seriously, this topic is now nearly four months old. Everything that could be said has been said. It has now mutated beyond all recognition. Like a forgotten sock.

Thread closed.
Reply

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