Can Sufi Islam counter the Taleban?

[themuffinman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7896943.stm

Can Sufi Islam counter the Taleban?

Sufi devotees in Lahore
Some believe that Pakistan's mystic, non-violent Islam can be used as a defence against extremism (Photos: Kamil Dayan Khan)

By Barbara Plett
BBC News, Lahore

It's one o'clock in the morning and the night is pounding with hypnotic rhythms, the air thick with the smoke of incense, laced with dope.

I'm squeezed into a corner of the upper courtyard at the shrine of Baba Shah Jamal in Lahore, famous for its Thursday night drumming sessions.

It's packed with young men, smoking, swaying to the music, and working themselves into a state of ecstasy.

This isn't how most Westerners imagine Pakistan, which has a reputation as a hotspot for Islamist extremism.

Devotional singing

But this popular form of Sufi Islam is far more widespread than the Taleban's version. It's a potent brew of mysticism, folklore and a dose of hedonism.

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Inside the Sufi drumming session at the shrine of Baba Shah Jamal

Now some in the West have begun asking whether Pakistan's Sufism could be mobilised to counter militant Islamist ideology and influence.

Lahore would be the place to start: it's a city rich in Sufi tradition.

At the shrine of Data Ganj Bakhsh Hajveri, musicians and singers from across the country also gather weekly, to perform qawwali, or Islamic devotional singing.

Qawwali is seen as a key part of the journey to the divine, what Sufis call the continual remembrance of God.

"When you listen to other music, you will listen for a short time, but the qawwali goes straight inside," says Ali Raza, a fourth generation Sufi singer.

"Even if you can't understand the wording, you can feel the magic of the qawwali, this is spiritual music which directly touches your soul and mind as well."

But Sufism is more than music. At a house in an affluent suburb of Lahore a group of women gathers weekly to practise the Sufi disciplines of chanting and meditation, meant to clear the mind and open the heart to God.

One by one the devotees recount how the sessions have helped them deal with problems and achieve greater peace and happiness. This more orthodox Sufism isn't as widespread as the popular variety, but both are seen as native to South Asia.

'Love and harmony'

"Islam came to this part of the world through Sufism," says Ayeda Naqvi, a teacher of Islamic mysticism who's taking part in the chanting.

"It was Sufis who came and spread the religious message of love and harmony and beauty, there were no swords, it was very different from the sharp edged Islam of the Middle East.

"And you can't separate it from our culture, it's in our music, it's in our folklore, it's in our architecture. We are a Sufi country, and yet there's a struggle in Pakistan right now for the soul of Islam."

That struggle is between Sufism and hard-line *******sm, the strict form of Sunni Islam followed by members of the Taleban and al-Qaeda.

It has gained ground in the tribal north-west, encouraged initially in the 1980s by the US and Saudi Arabia to help recruit Islamist warriors to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

But it's alien to Pakistan's Sufi heartland in the Punjab and Sindh provinces, says Sardar Aseff Ali, a cabinet minister and a Sufi.

"*******sm is a tribal form of Islam coming from the desert sands of Saudi Arabia," he says. "This may be very attractive to the tribes in the frontier, but it will never find resonance in the established societies of Pakistan."

So could Pakistan's mystic, non-violent Islam be used as a defence against extremism?

An American think tank, the Rand Corporation, has advocated this, suggesting support for Sufism as an "open, intellectual interpretation of Islam".

There is ample proof that Sufism remains a living tradition.

In the warren of Lahore's back streets, a shrine is being built to a modern saint, Hafiz Iqbal, and his mentor, a mystic called Baba Hassan Din. They attract followers from all classes and walks of life.

'Atrocities'

The architect is Kamil Khan Mumtaz. He describes in loving detail his traditional construction techniques and the spiritual principles they symbolise.

He shakes his head at stories of lovely old mosques and shrines pulled down and replaced by structures of concrete and glass at the orders of austere mullahs, and he's horrified at atrocities committed in the name of religion by militant Islamists.

But he doubts that Sufism can be marshalled to resist ******* radicalism, a phenomenon that he insists has political, not religious, roots.

"The American think tanks should think again," he says. "What you see [in Islamic extremism] is a response to what has happened in the modern world.

"There is a frustration, an anger, a rage against invaders, occupiers. Muslims ask themselves, what happened?

"We once ruled the world and now we're enslaved. This is a power struggle, it is the oppressed who want to become the oppressors, this has nothing to do with Islam, and least of all to do with Sufism."

Ayeda Naqvi, on the other hand, believes Sufism could play a political role to strengthen a tolerant Islamic identity in Pakistan. But she warns of the dangers of Western support.

"I think if it's done it has to be done very quietly because a lot of people here are allergic to the West interfering," she says.

"So even if it's something good they're doing, they need to be discreet because you don't want Sufism to be labelled as a movement which is being pushed by the West to drown out the real puritanical Islam."

Back at the Shah Jamal shrine I couldn't feel further from puritanical Islam. The frenzied passion around me suggests that Pakistan's Sufi shrines won't be taken over by the Taleban any time soon.

But whether Sufism can be used to actively resist the spread of extremist Islam, or even whether it should be, is another question.




as a pakistani myself i am ashamed that such places exist and smear islam. astaghfirullah they look more like hindus if u click the link and view the pics and video

[Dawud_uk]

no, these people are ahlul bidah and are going to the hellfire as authentically narrated about those who abandon the sunnah, many of the taliban are sufi but the real sufis, not these dancing prancing idiots who want to party and use islam as their excuse.

[Dawud_uk]

The Significance of the Taliban for the Muslim Ummah

Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem

A Personal Comment:

There, on the opposite side of the river, a fisherman casts his net - he is standing on the stern of his small boat rowed by another man. Now, the net-caster, his net thrown, beats the fast-flowing Nile water with a long stick, there where small narrow fields are planted with sugar cane, maize, and trees bearing bananas.

I sit in the shade of a palm tree, almost in the middle of one of the strips of fertile green that bounds both sides of the river. Nearby, an Iblis waits, patiently watching the water. Beyond, on both sides, is the desert where yesterday I walked, alone, under the strong, hot sun, until it was time for Asr. It was good to be there, bowing, kneeling, prostrating, in submission to the one and only God, saying the same words in the same language as the Prophet himself (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam), nearly one and half thousand years ago. I felt connected - to the desert, the Sun, the land around, to the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam), to my brothers and sisters around the world, suspended in time, and so keenly aware of my fragility, my mortality, my smallness, among the creations of Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala, who created this desert, this life-bearing river, the Sun, this planet, and this man, sitting in the shade of a tree.

Now, as I sit here, I think about the beautiful and profound simplicity of Islam. For Islam is simple, beautiful, and profound. It is simple in theory, simple in practice, and both human and futuristic: far superior to any and all the philosophies, the ways, the political ideas, that I have studied over the past three decades. Why? Because it places us where we truly belong - providing as it does an appreciation and understanding of our fallibility, and providing as it does guidelines to make and keep us human: possessed of an awareness of our Creator. For it this awareness that is beginning of our humanity, just as it is the guidelines given in the Quran and Sunnah which, if followed, can take us to and keep us upon the path of honourable personal conduct in both our private and our social lives.

Islam is futuristic because it is a gateway to the next and most important life - that which awaits us after our mortal life, here on this Earth, has ended. It is futuristic because it reveals how we can and should live our lives: as honourable, well-mannered, human beings who are careful, out of respect for their Creator, not to over-step the bounds of right conduct, and who thus follow the true middle way that lies between the two extremes of prideful arrogance and addiction to our own desires, our own selfishness, our own personal fulfillment.

Every time I return to a Muslim land I am aware of two things. First, how many Muslims seem to be Muslim in name only, imitating as they seem to do the ways of the kaffir; second, of what this modern world really needs. Does this world really need more wealth, more luxuries, more materialism, more development, created by the idea of "progress"? Does the so-called "under developed world" have to play the Western game according to Western rules in order to achieve something called "happiness" and something called "prosperity" and something called "progress"?

Every time I return - and especially now as I sit here under a beautiful blue sky, with desert beyond the small patches of food-producing land - I ask myself what is the true meaning of prosperity, of happiness, of progress, of wealth? Is the fisherman there, casting his net again, happier than the vastly more wealthy Western man I saw on my journey through London, sitting in his expensive car? Is there true wealth here, in a simple living, in a simple submission to Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala? In a simple acceptance of this life as a gateway to another, eternal, life? The answers to such question all depend on our perspective, on one fundamental question: what is the meaning and purpose of our lives, as individuals?

Islam provides one answer, which I as a Muslim have accepted, and it is an answer which everyone - as Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala says - is free to accept or reject. This Islamic answer is a simple one, and it is that our purpose, the meaning of our lives, is to strive for Jannah, for the eternal life of Paradise, through a complete and simple submission to Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala.

The Taliban:

Several years ago, I came to consider that the Taliban were Allah's blessing to the Ummah - that they represented all that was good, and honourable, about Islam, and that in their leader, Mullah Omar (hafidhahullah) we had another excellent example, similar to al-Khulafaa' al-Raashidoon and As-Salaf as-Saalih: that he did indeed merit the title Ameer-ul-Mumineen.

Why is this? Because the Taliban had returned to the fundamentals of Islam, purely from a desire to please Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala and Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala alone. These were indeed honourable Muslims - who saught to implement Islam and who, through Jihad, were prepared to die to defend Islam and fight those who desired to destroy Islam and a true Islamic community.

It occurred to me - as I travelled, talked to Muslims, and read and studied all I could - that the Taliban were an example of the recent revival of authentic Islam: that they had perceived, and understood, the essential simplicity and beauty of Islam, and thus rejected any and all attempts to imitate the kuffar; that is, any and all attempts, from whatever reason or motive, to move away from the fundamental truths of Islam.

Thus I understood how the Taliban represented a fundamental if rather neglected principle of Islam - that of Zuhd in dunya. That is, the desires of this life comes second - after the desire for Jannah; after the desire to obey Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala; after the desire to love and follow His Messenger and Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

Understood thus, all the rhetoric of the kuffar - all the rhetoric of the tame and moderate Muslims subverted by the kuffar - about prosperity, about the poverty of the Taliban and their land, about the "backwardness" of the Taliban, is seen for what it is: irrelevant; un-Islamic.

For the simple truth is that, in this life, we do not need very much - but what we do need, above everything else, is to follow the clear, the simple, the beautiful guidance given to us by in the Quran and the Sunnah. We need, that is, to humbly submit to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala ; to humbly obey Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala; to love His Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and so be Muslim, in our hearts, our thoughts, our way of life. And that is all. For it is Zuhd in dunya that moves us towards that simple submission to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala that is Islam.

Propaganda Against the Taliban:

There was something quite inspiring about the Taliban - many Muslims sensed this, as did many who did not like the revival of Islam which was occurring, in Afghanistan and elsewhere. More and more young Muslims, it seemed, were being guided to the right path by the example of the Taliban. The Taliban had even begun to create the foundations for a genuine Islamic community - ruled by Shariah and Shariah only - as they had begun to encourage Muslims to migrate to Afghanistan to help in the revival of Islam, and in the construction of what many hoped would one day become a new Khilafah.

Those in the West who disliked Islam and who had worldly plans of their own for the world thus came to consider the Taliban a threat, and so began a campaign against the them, using the power of the Western Media - which was in their control, directly or indirectly - to try and discredit the Taliban, in the eyes of the both Muslims and non-Muslims, and using as they often did the services of the many tame and "moderate" Muslims who believed that imitation of the kuffar way of life was "a good thing" and that "Islam needed modernizing". In addition, the so-called leaders of many Western nations began agitating for sanctions against the Taliban, with some advocating direct intervention by that kaffir organization, the mis-named "United Nations".

This campaign, by the kuffar, by the enemies of Islam, culminated in the invasion of Afghanistan by Amerika, and in the installation of a puppet, pro-Amerikan regime.

The Significance of the Taliban:

Despite the invasion, despite the propaganda of the kuffar, and despite the attempts by the kuffar to subvert Islam, the Taliban have not been defeated, Alhamdulillah. The significance of the Taliban, for us, is that they have revealed, in what the kuffar call "the modern world", the beautiful, the noble, the true, path of Islam. They have steadfastly rejected all the many and varied temptations of this modern world - the temptations of the way of life of the kuffar. They have remained honourable, focused on Jannah, and remained steadfast in following the Quran and the Sunnah, and these alone.

If the recent events in Afghanistan, in Iraq and elsewhere, reveal anything, it is this - that we, as Muslims, have a choice: we can allow ourselves to be influenced by the kuffar, by the ways and ideas of the kuffar, by the temptations, the materialism, of this world, or we can follow the clear and noble and quite simple guidance given to us by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala.

May Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) protect us from all forms of Al-Asabiyyah Al-Jahiliyyah, forgive us for our mistakes, and guide us to and keep us on the Right Path.


--------------------
"I am considering two promises. One is the promise of God, the other is that of Bush. The promise of God is that my land is vast. If you start a journey on God's path, you can reside anywhere on this earth and will be protected... The promise of Bush is that there is no place on earth where you can hide that I cannot find you. We will see which one of these two promises is fulfilled." -Mullah Mohammad 'Umar

[Yanal]

:sl:
Mmm interesting I think it's to show everyone how Pakistian acts when it knows it's on camera and how it acts after or when it's off guard. It's nota surprising article as I read many that try to blame everything on pakistian like this one. And all stories come up with there names because they know Asif zaradari won't do anything but show his illerature teeth.

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[Fishman]

:sl:
Not a good idea to post that kind of stuff on this forum, given that most members here despise Sufis.
:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Problems:

"the air thick with the smoke of incense, laced with dope."
"shrine of Baba Shah Jamal in Lahore,"
"famous for its Thursday night drumming sessions."

"smoking,"
"swaying to the music,"
"working themselves into a state of ecstasy."
"It's a potent brew of mysticism, folklore and a dose of hedonism."
"Inside the Sufi drumming session at the shrine of Baba Shah Jamal"

"At the shrine of Data Ganj Bakhsh Hajveri, musicians and singers from across the country also gather weekly, to perform qawwali, or Islamic devotional singing."

"Qawwali is seen as a key part of the journey to the divine, what Sufis call the continual remembrance of God."

This isn't an attempt to water down extremism, it's a way to change and water down the religion itself. Extremism needs to be curbed, but not by introducing and propagating heresies and activities that are filled with evil such as the ones that occur at these shrines. Extremism is curbed with education and grassroots level change, not by giving people dope and weed and having them sing and dance around graves! I mean, take a look at the video and the picture provided in the article, it's so contrary to the fitrah.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

these extremist sufi's are the reason theres so much confusion in the ummah.



the real sufi's (the ascetic lovers of sunnah) will never be recognised due to these always getting the lime light...

[Fishman]

:sl:

Problems:

"the air thick with the smoke of incense, laced with dope."
"shrine of Baba Shah Jamal in Lahore,"
"famous for its Thursday night drumming sessions."

"smoking,"
"swaying to the music,"
"working themselves into a state of ecstasy."
"It's a potent brew of mysticism, folklore and a dose of hedonism."
"Inside the Sufi drumming session at the shrine of Baba Shah Jamal"

"At the shrine of Data Ganj Bakhsh Hajveri, musicians and singers from across the country also gather weekly, to perform qawwali, or Islamic devotional singing."

"Qawwali is seen as a key part of the journey to the divine, what Sufis call the continual remembrance of God."

:sl:
They lace incense with dope? Luckily there are Sufis that believe that becoming close to Allah means that you must refrain from disobeying Him!

If Hazrat Data Ganj Bakhsh were with us today he would not be pleased. I put a quote from him in my sig once (it got deleted) which said that you must follow the Shariah if you want to claim to be close to Allah. It is well-known (but obviously not well-known enough!) that you should never take a sinner as a Shaykh, or he will misguide you.

EDIT: As for the 'music' and 'drums' that they refer to, there is a difference of opinion on this. Some Shaykhs say that it is not halal at all, others are more tolerant. I've never attended any gatherings where people have used these methods myself.

However, these few bad acts don't neccessarily justify the Calvinist 'Salafi' approach that all Sufism is evil, in just the same way that a few terrorist Muslims don't mean that all of Islam is evil.
:w:

[Thinker]

The Significance of the Taliban for the Muslim Ummah

Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt

Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt, (born 1950) - formerly known as David Myatt and David Wulstan Myatt - is a British Muslim and a former neo-nazi. Before his conversion to Islam in 1998, Myatt was the first leader of the British National Socialist Movement and was identified by the British newspaper, The Observer, as the "ideological heavyweight" behind Combat 18.

Great source of inspiration !! See . . . .

http://www.williambowles.info/articl..._fascists.html

[themuffinman]

im not saying i support sufism, just the opposite i am disgusted and ashamed that this is taking place in pakistan as i am pakistani. this isnt even sufism....this is more hindusim it seems....they even look more like hindus

[Mr. Baldy]

They look more like mushrik... I doubt many of them have read Ghazali! Subhanallah, if I'm not much mistaken the chechen mujahideen are sufi. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

No doubt this 'tareeqa' is a relic of british raj imperialism mixing and matching hindu philosophy with Islam... almost a pseudo-sikhism. I could be mistaken, maybe someone else can shed some more light on this?

[KashifB]

The first pic in the article with the two old guys in front, looks like they haven't taken a bath in years. :uuh: Why? :?

im not saying i support sufism, just the opposite i am disgusted and ashamed that this is taking place in pakistan as i am pakistani. this isnt even sufism....this is more hindusim it seems....they even look more like hindus

Did you notice the picture in the video at 00:52? It had hanging flowers in front of it like the Hindu tradition!

[Pomak]

Just finished reading it, and i have no idea where on earth they took "non violent" from.

I also agree that this(war in Afghanistan) is a political issue not a religious one, so finding a religious solution will not work.

And yes, the Chechens were/are sufis mostly. (i doubt anyone would claim that the Chechens were/are "non violent")

[alcurad]

^:)
any people under oppression will fight, the war needs to be stopped, then there will be peace. no stupid solution ever works/ed, when will they ever learn..
the muslims are more educated and knowledgeable about their religion to fall in such ... anymore.

[north_malaysian]

It's one o'clock in the morning and the night is pounding with hypnotic rhythms, the air thick with the smoke of incense, laced with dope.

There are millions of Sufis in Malaysia, but I never see anything like those "Sufis" in Pakistan... tomb worshipping..even the Sufis here are against it..

[north_malaysian]

:sl:
Not a good idea to post that kind of stuff on this forum, given that most members here despise Sufis.
:w:

I dont practice Sufism but I dont despise the Sufis which dont do crazy things like tomb worshipping, body whipping, tongue cutting, body piercing, walking on fire and broken glasses...

[north_malaysian]

The first pic in the article with the two old guys in front, looks like they haven't taken a bath in years. :uuh: Why? :?

That old man looks like a Rastaman...

Did you notice the picture in the video at 00:52? It had hanging flowers in front of it like the Hindu tradition!

And there are still people saying that Hinduism is no longer there in Pakistan..

[Dawud_uk]

That old man looks like a Rastaman...





And there are still people saying that Hinduism is no longer there in Pakistan..

reminds me of when i told someone i intended to eventually move to pakistan once i get enough cash for buy land, to which he said how will i give da'wah there?

so i told him dont worry, plenty of mushrikeen in pakistan to give da'wah to.

more seriously though, i agree these people are not sufi.

sufism is about bringing yourself close to the sunnah and zuhd, asceticism, but not going to extremes like these people have. in this as i said before, the taliban are closer to the good sufis of the past, the imam shamils, the omar muktars of this ummah, not these idiots from the article.

its like the mubaritun in the uk, they take their name from the mubaritun of the middle ages in north africa and al-andalus but they were hardcore mujahideen who when not fighting the kuffar went from town to town smashing up bars and musical instruments. the very name mubaritun comes from ribat which were the frontier forts and castles used by the muslims to defend islam from the kuffar.

i think many salafis forget that ibn taymiyyah actually wrote a book in defence of sufism, where as the sufis that do know this fate forget it was against the other sufis of his day who did many of the innovations we see today.

[alcurad]

^mostly agree, al muravids were not extreme though, rather was ascetic. their jihad enabled the muslims to continue in Spain for a couple more centuries.
some history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravids
although wiki is not completely reliable..

[Dawud_uk]

^mostly agree, al muravids were not extreme though, rather was ascetic. their jihad enabled the muslims to continue in Spain for a couple more centuries.
some history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravids
although wiki is not completely reliable..

i dont find smashing up bars and musical instruments to be extreme in the slightest, it was because they were returning and becomming closer to the sunnah that islam continued,

it was when the sunnah was abandoned that the muslims got into trouble.

[alcurad]

hmm, were there bars at that time:?

[Dawud_uk]

hmm, were there bars at that time:?

modern language translation,

there was wine and houses where people would gather and drink but i dont think they had electricity sockets to plug their juke boxes into and no kareoke machines obviously as no contact with japan yet.

[doorster]

i dont find smashing up bars and musical instruments to be extreme in the slightest, it was because they were returning and becomming closer to the sunnah that islam continued,

it was when the sunnah was abandoned that the muslims got into trouble.

are you going to start this "sunnah" in England any time soon if so is there any help coming from combat 18 troops (don't think the street skinheads are gonna like it)?

[Dawud_uk]

are you going to start this "sunnah" in England any time soon if so is there any help coming from combat 18 troops (don't think the street skinheads are gonna like it)?

only when we establish the shariah here inshallah!

i.e i was talking about a muslim country not darul kufr

[doorster]

only when we establish the shariah here inshallah!

i.e i was talking about a muslim country not darul kufr

in other words inciting trouble abroad from safety and comfort of England!

(disregarding the semi-hindus, yogis and malangs portrayed as Sufi-Muslims in OP) which of the following, in your opinion or according to your sect, is a proper Muslim

Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)
al-munnajjad
bakri
al-masri
David Myatt
Sufi Zulkader Siddiqui http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/134273647-haram-halal-meat.html

only when we establish the shariah here inshallah!

would it be halal to destroy what is Maal (wealth:e.g. brewries, bars, piggeries, slaughterhouses etc.) for non-Muslim in your version of khilaafat?

[Dawud_uk]

in other words inciting trouble abroad from safety and comfort of England!

(disregarding the semi-hindus portrayed as Sufi-Muslims in OP) which of the following, in your opinion or according to your sect, is a proper Muslim

Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)
al-munnajjad
bakri
al-masri
David Myatt
Sufi Zulkader Siddiqui http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/134273647-haram-halal-meat.html
would it be halal to destroy what is Maal for non-Muslim in your version of khilaafat?

:sl:

yusuf islam, al-munajjad, bakri, al-masri are as far as i am aware aswj, though of-course that doesnt mean agree 100%

david myatt and zulkader siddiqui i dont know, other than this one article relating to this post and the one you put up.

also akhi could i warn you, it is actually an act of kufr akbar to mock a believer, abu hamza was disabled whilst in the path of Allah so stop mocking him as could lead you to leaving the fold of islam,

if you dont know then you should, but the verses of the Quran where Allah says...

"And if you question them, they declare emphatically: "We were only talking idly and joking." Say: "Was it at Allah, His Aayat and His Messenger you were mocking?" Make no excuses! You have rejected faith after you had accepted it, if We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you because they were sinners" (Qur'an 9:65-66)

this verse was revealed in relation to some munafiqeen in the times of the prophet muhammad (saws) who mocked some believers on their way back from the battlefield, saying they were eating too much and were fat.

:sl:

[Pomak]

^:)
any people under oppression will fight, the war needs to be stopped, then there will be peace. no stupid solution ever works/ed, when will they ever learn..
the muslims are more educated and knowledgeable about their religion to fall in such ... anymore.

Open a book or talk to an Afghan, there hasn't been peace in that country for the last 30 years. So it has little to do with the war.

[NazariteofEhyah]

"Every time I return to a Muslim land I am aware of two things. First, how many Muslims seem to be Muslim in name only, imitating as they seem to do the ways of the kaffir; second, of what this modern world really needs. Does this world really need more wealth, more luxuries, more materialism, more development, created by the idea of "progress"? Does the so-called "under developed world" have to play the Western game according to Western rules in order to achieve something called "happiness" and something called "prosperity" and something called "progress"?"

Progress is an conceptual idea. What do you think 'progress' actually is? Progress could be understood to be social reform, economic boost and increased security. When you speak of the 'kaffir' whom exactly do you speak off? Do you speak of those in power, whether by peerage or election? I do seriously hope that your not refering to every Westerner in this pretence. I agree on your views concerning materialism for we Nazarites/Nazarenes would stamp it out gradually not by making judgements but to help show a way of liberation from worldy lifes. However, word are soo easy to say and judgement can be made before you even think. Helping fellow man realise this earthly indulgence you speak of is three steps ahead of calling him a 'kaffir', to which would only devide, not unite.

Every time I return - and especially now as I sit here under a beautiful blue sky, with desert beyond the small patches of food-producing land - I ask myself what is the true meaning of prosperity, of happiness, of progress, of wealth? Is the fisherman there, casting his net again, happier than the vastly more wealthy Western man I saw on my journey through London, sitting in his expensive car? Is there true wealth here, in a simple living, in a simple submission to Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala? In a simple acceptance of this life as a gateway to another, eternal, life? The answers to such question all depend on our perspective, on one fundamental question: what is the meaning and purpose of our lives, as individuals?

Your given a view concerning the Muslim, in comparison to the Atheistic shapped lifestyle, where it's all about the self. When you say Westerner your implying judgment, and I don't recommend that. If you give an example be more precise.

It occurred to me - as I travelled, talked to Muslims, and read and studied all I could - that the Taliban were an example of the recent revival of authentic Islam: that they had perceived, and understood, the essential simplicity and beauty of Islam, and thus rejected any and all attempts to imitate the kuffar; that is, any and all attempts, from whatever reason or motive, to move away from the fundamental truths of Islam.

Two wrongs can never correct a right. If the taliban are anything like what you describe then they would have the wisdom of saying to the occupiers, "look, lets reason and stop this conflict". But however if a truce is agreed, will the Taliban resort to thier former governing of Afganistan? Yet again, your haven't given clear detail as to what extactly is a kuffar!

Understood thus, all the rhetoric of the kuffar - all the rhetoric of the tame and moderate Muslims subverted by the kuffar - about prosperity, about the poverty of the Taliban and their land, about the "backwardness" of the Taliban, is seen for what it is: irrelevant; un-Islamic.

The Taliban would appear to be like that, for when they were in power the economic wealth of Afganistan wasn't much to boost about. As you assumbly speak in their favour, what difference will the Taliban mean for Afganistan?

Those in the West who disliked Islam and who had worldly plans of their own for the world thus came to consider the Taliban a threat, and so began a campaign against the them, using the power of the Western Media - which was in their control, directly or indirectly - to try and discredit the Taliban, in the eyes of the both Muslims and non-Muslims, and using as they often did the services of the many tame and "moderate" Muslims who believed that imitation of the kuffar way of life was "a good thing" and that "Islam needed modernizing". In addition, the so-called leaders of many Western nations began agitating for sanctions against the Taliban, with some advocating direct intervention by that kaffir organization, the mis-named "United Nations".

The media isn't a level playing field. Yet you continue to judge others, because you fail to explain who exactly is a Kaffir, and another question why do you think the UN is a kaffir organisation? Just as Islam has its principle organisation, non-Muslims have their own.

This campaign, by the kuffar, by the enemies of Islam, culminated in the invasion of Afghanistan by Amerika, and in the installation of a puppet, pro-Amerikan regime.

Your putting all Westerner's into one group!

If the recent events in Afghanistan, in Iraq and elsewhere, reveal anything, it is this - that we, as Muslims, have a choice: we can allow ourselves to be influenced by the kuffar, by the ways and ideas of the kuffar, by the temptations, the materialism, of this world, or we can follow the clear and noble and quite simple guidance given to us by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala.

What is a kuffar? Are you speaking of all non-Mislims? Not all non-Muslims are closely tied into the world and it's indulgences.

[alcurad]

also akhi could i warn you, it is actually an act of kufr akbar to mock a believer

no, it's not, brother Dawud. the verse is case specific, they were mocking Allah,his messenger and the signs/verses of the qur'an, these aren't synonymous with believers.

[Dawud_uk]

no, it's not, brother Dawud. the verse is case specific, they were mocking Allah,his messenger and the signs/verses of the qur'an, these aren't synonymous with believers.

do you have any daleel to back up your statement?

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/7844

Ruling Concerning Ridiculing a Woman who Wears the Proper Hijab and Covers Her Face

What is the ruling concerning one who ridicules those who wear the proper hijab and cover their faces and hands?

Praise be to Allaah.

Whoever ridicules a Muslim woman or man for sticking to and applying the teachings of Islam is a disbeliever. This is regardless of whether it is concerning woman's hijab or any other matter of the Shariah. This is based on the following narration from ibn Umar: At a gathering during the Battle of Tabuk, one man said, "I have not seen anyone like our Quranic readers who is more desirous of food, more lying in speech and more cowardly when meeting the enemy." A man said, "You have lied and you are a liar. I shall definitely tell the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) about that." That news was conveyed to the Messenger of Allah and the Quran was revealed. Abdullah ibn Umar added, "I saw the man holding on to the bag of the camel of the Messenger of Allah and the dust was striking him while he was saying, 'O Messenger of Allah, we were just joking and playing. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was simply saying the verse of the Quran],

"Was it Allah, and His Signs and His Messenger you were mocking? Make no excuse, you have disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others among you because they were sinners" (al-Tauba 65-66).

So ridiculing believers has been equated with ridiculing Allah, His Signs and His Messenger.

The Standing Committee

[NazariteofEhyah]

So the moral is thay you can be my personal critic!

[doorster]

do you have any daleel to back up your statement?

tsk tsk tsk

there goes munnajjad again,massacring Arabic and changing Qur'anic Ayats with al-lagv

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/7844

Ruling Concerning Ridiculing a Woman who Wears the Proper Hijab and Covers Her Face

What is the ruling concerning one who ridicules those who wear the proper hijab and cover their faces and hands?

Praise be to Allaah.

Proper hijab is to be masked? naughty man!!!

Open a book or talk to an Afghan, there hasn't been peace in that country for the last 30 years. So it has little to do with the war.

you mean war against Soviets was a love affair?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Proper hijab is to be masked? naughty man!!!

Excuse me? Did you just refer to the niqaab as a mask? I don't think there is any dispute that covering the hands and face, as well as the rest of the body is the complete hijaab for a Muslimah. The only dispute is on whether it is obligatory or simply highly recommended. Therefore, mocking the Muslimah's hijaab is mocking a part of Islaam.

[doorster]

Excuse me? Did you just refer to the niqaab as a mask? I don't think there is any dispute that covering the hands and face, as well as the rest of the body is the complete hijaab for a Muslimah. The only dispute is on whether it is obligatory or simply highly recommended. Therefore, mocking the Muslimah's hijaab is mocking a part of Islaam.

Wears the Proper Hijab and Covers Her Face (implication being that the majority are improperly dressed)

translate to English >> what is the face covering called?

BTW. this fatwah is being used to stop me "mocking" hizb ut tahrir chiefs and a neo-Nazi-cum-Muslim a mr. myatt (thread had nothing to do with hijab to start with, originally, it was meant to be a Sufi bashing thread and I tried, I think successfully, to show that all is not well anywhere and with anyone sect for all have their disgusting practices and nasty frauds amongst them)

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Wears the Proper Hijab and Covers Her Face (implication being that the majority are improperly dressed)

translate to English >> what is the face covering called?

BTW. this fatwah is being used to stop me "mocking" hizb ut tahrir chiefs and a neo-Nazi-cum-Muslim a mr. myatt (thread had nothing to do with hijab to start with)

Because you disagree with Saalih al-Munajjid's fatwa does not give you an excuse to use such a silly phrase to describe the niqaab. To be honest, as a niqaabi that offended me. Saalih al-Munajjid is not the only one who holds that opinion. Many 'Ulamaa, past and present, hold the same view. And as I stated, whether the covering of the hands or face is obligatory is not the point, just that it is a part of Islaam.

And as for the rest of the discussion, I'll choose to opt out.

P.s., the face covering (niqaab) would be translated as a veil, according to the Hans Wehr Arabic-English dictionary.

[Dawud_uk]

Wears the Proper Hijab and Covers Her Face (implication being that the majority are improperly dressed)

translate to English >> what is the face covering called?

BTW. this fatwah is being used to stop me "mocking" hizb ut tahrir chiefs and a neo-Nazi-cum-Muslim a mr. myatt (thread had nothing to do with hijab to start with, originally, it was meant to be a Sufi bashing thread and I tried, I think successfully, to show that all is not well anywhere and with anyone sect for all have their disgusting practices and nasty frauds amongst them)

:sl:

(and i will keep giving salaams on here as it is an islamic messageboard, knowing i still get the reward for it even if nobody else bothers with the proper ettiquettes)

if you disagree with someone then disagree, show evidence, give Quran ayats and ahaddith to show your point.

if you call names you only demean your argument as well as yourself, give away your good deeds to this person and so harm yourself several times over.

and as already pointed out, mocking a believer in matters of the deen is a matter of kufr akbar so please refrain from it, it is dangerous to you not us.

i am also not trying to silence you, i am happy to get these issues out in the open and have the debate and discussion relating to them but there are certain ways we go about such things, but you keep trashing such good manners and abusing people instead.

so if you want to have a discussion regarding certain ulema and da'ees you have mentioned then lets do so either on the board or by pm but please for your own sake stop mocking believers, we are trying to warn you for your own good.

:sl:

[Omar_Mukhtar]

those look like extreme Sufis..........and what is with the rastas?

[NazariteofEhyah]

those look like extreme Sufis..........and what is with the rastas?

Most presumptuous you are!

I am not a Rastarfarian, but a Nazarene!

[north_malaysian]

Most presumptuous you are!

I am not a Rastarfarian, but a Nazarene!

I dont think that he's refering to you.... it's the "sufi" dude with dreadlock on the pic...

[ayesha309]

These "sufis" look scary :skeleton::uuh:. they can pass for budhhists or hindus or something else, not Muslims.
They need Islam. Ya Allah guide them and us. Ameen

[alcurad]

I agree with bother doorster-mostly- Al munajjid is one of the worst references one can make. he rarely if ever discusses other credible views, no, it's always what he says that's made to be THE words of Allah and his messenger.
just because it's easy to copy & paste doesn't make it correct,,

[north_malaysian]

These "sufis" look scary :skeleton::uuh:. they can pass for budhhists or hindus or something else, not Muslims.
They need Islam. Ya Allah guide them and us. Ameen

Thanks to God, that these "Sufis" are not the tombkeepers of our beloved prophet Muhammad...

Imagine people dancing in Masjidil Nabawi in Medina :uuh: Nauzubillah min zalik

[Caller الداعي]

inna lillah has islam been degraded to such a level!!! how can the moderators of this forum allow such threads!

[Ummu Sufyaan]

@ OPost
Weird...the only thing I seem to be seeing in that article is like an insult to jihad… I don’t understand this whole “sitting on your back side” whilst your enemy drives out your people and tries to destroy your religion …and turning around and saying that the only way to defeat the enemy is with things like this

hypnotic rhythms, the air thick with the smoke of incense, laced with dope.

with young men, smoking, swaying to the music, and working themselves into a state of ecstasy.

Devotional singing

Etc etc etc

*walks off bewildered*

EDIT: @ akhee dawud_uk could please post up the ibn taymiyyah book you are referring to here

i think many salafis forget that ibn taymiyyah actually wrote a book in defence of sufism, where as the sufis that do know this fate forget it was against the other sufis of his day who did many of the innovations we see today.

[north_malaysian]

@ O Post
Weird...the only thing I seem to be seeing in that article is more or less an insult to jihad… I don’t understand this whole “sitting on your back side” whilst your enemy drives out your people and tries to destroy your religion …and turning around and saying that the only way to defeat the enemy is with things like this





Etc etc etc

*walks off bewildered*

I think the only people who would respond to this kind of "Sufis" are hippies (if we still have them here)

[Pomak]

you mean war against Soviets was a love affair?

The war with the RUSSIANS was ended in 89, the Us invaded in 01.

Between those two there was no occupation, unless you count the Taliban as a Pakistani proxy.

[doorster]

The war with the RUSSIANS was ended in 89, the Us invaded in 01.

Between those two there was no occupation, unless you count the Taliban as a Pakistani proxy.

so according shiite maths, 1989 to 2001 makes 30 years thanx very much

Originally Posted by Pomak

Open a book or talk to an Afghan, there hasn't been peace in that country for the last 30 years. So it has little to do with the war.

[Pomak]

I am going to try once more, then your going to see my bad side.

RUS in Afghanistan- December 27, 1979 – February 15, 1989

Afghan civil war - 89 till 01

US occupation 01- today.

2009-1979= can you guess how much? oh yes thats right, 30.

As i said foreign occupation has nothing to do with the mess that the Afghans find themselves in.

PS. i am not a shia, my brother in humanity.

[doorster]

then your going to see my bad side

now do I have to go in to hiding (in-case a death sentence is pronounced)?

[Pomak]

now do I have to go in to hiding (in-case a death sentence is pronounced)?

Not man enough to even admit when your wrong, or to stop insulting people...

*yawn*

[alcurad]

RUS in Afghanistan- December 27, 1979 – February 15, 1989

Afghan civil war - 89 till 01

US occupation 01- today.

As i said foreign occupation has nothing to do with the mess that the Afghans find themselves in.

don't the calculation proves the opposite of what you say?
most of those 30 years were spent under foreign occupation, subsequent civil war occurred because of the occupation as well,,

[AntiKarateKid]

ON TOPIC:

Am I the only one who finds the topic question strange?

We should use a deviant sect of Islam to counter an extremist sect?


As I remember, evil does not counter evil.

[alcurad]

^it used to be standard colonial practice, corrupt the spirit of jihad against the occupation by introducing such elements, but as I said a few posts ago, it doesn't work anymore, we are not that unlearned anymore,,