format_quote Originally Posted by
Indigåtor
Thanks to all who voted and replied. By 'heaven' I did indeed mean 'above the seven heavens', or over the universe.
It appears a few Muslims here disagree with physically locating God due to the unseen 'area' over the heavens itself being a creation of God. I agree with their proposition. Interestingly, most of you have favoured the literal interpretation.
How do you account for the logic that anything above the 'seven heavens' [the divine presence] too is created; God positioning Himself within His own creation? If we consider God's location to be uncreated then we have basically invented another god, but, if we assume it was created and yet God exists in it, that would mean God has identified Himself with what He created.
"God rose above and firmly established Himself on the throne in a way that befits His majesty" is a vague explanation. Where do you think God was before He created the arsh, kursi and the heavens?
This question applies to Christians and Jews also, but none of them voted or shared their opinions in this topic. Where's that ol' Grace Seeker, I wonder what he has to say on the matter. :)
Peace,
Indigåtor
Like I said before, this thread will be closed, as the other one was if the discussions get too philosophical and I think it's already heading in that direction. I provided you the belief of mainstream Muslims of the past and of today regarding their beliefs in this area. The pious predecessors had a consensus on this belief and none of them delved deep into this topic except the heretics such as the
Jahmiyyah and the
Mu'tazilah. As Imam Malik said, to question
al-Istiwaa (the rising over the Throne) is an innovation;
al-Istiwaa is known, belief in it is obligatory and the
how is unknown. No need to question and preoccupy ourselves with something that won't benefit us and will put people into confusion and
fitnah which is why this thread needs to be closed.
Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal, the Imaam of
Ahlus Sunnah, said in his book '
The Refutation of the Heretics and the Jahmiyyah':
XII. Where Allah is and Where He is Not
Bab: An exposition of the denial by the Jahmiya that Allah is on the throne.
We asked them: Why do you deny that Allah is on the throne when He said: The God of Mercy rose above His throne? 20-4 And again, ...Who in six days created the Heavens and the Earth... then mounted His throne. 25-60 They replied: He is under the seven earths as He is on the throne; He is in heaven, on earth and in every place; there is no place where he is not, no is He in one place to the exclusion of any other. And they quoted the verse: And He is God in the Heavens and on the Earth. 6-3 We said: The Muslims know of many a place where there is no trace whatsoever of the might of the Lord. They said: And where is that? We replied: Your bodies, your insides and pigs’ insides, in privies and unclean places, in all of which there is no trace of the Lord’s might.
Allah told us that He is in Heaven, saying: What are ye sure that He who is in Heaven will not cleave the Earth beneath you?..Or are you sure that He who is in Heaven will not send against you a stone-charged whirl-wind? 67-16,17 And again: ...The good word riseth up to Him. 35-2 And again: ...O Jesus! Verily I will take thee and raise thee to Myself. 3-55 And again: ...But Allah took him up to Himself. 4-156 And again: All beings in Heaven and in Earth are His, and they who are in His presence... 21-19 And again: They fear their Lord who is above them... 16-52 And again: ...The Master of those ascents 70-3 And again: His servants... 6-18 And again: ...He is the High, the Great. 2-256 This then tells us that He is in Heaven.
The following verses show us that all beneath Him are villainous: Verily the hypocrites shall be in the lowest abyss of the fire...4-144 And again: And they who believe not shall say, O our Lord! Show us those of the jinn and men who led us astray: both of them will we put under our feet that they be of the humbled. 41-29 We added: Do you not know that iblis has his place and the devils have theirs? Allah and Iblis can not be both in one place. The meaning of Allah’s word: ‘He is God in heaven and upon earth’ is that to him belong those in Heaven and those in earth; that He is on the throne and that His knowledge embraces all that lies beneath the throne; and that there is no place not embraced by His knowledge. As He said: ... That ye may know that Allah hath power over all things, and that Allah in His knowledge embraceth all things. 65-12
An example illustrating this is that of a man holding in his hand a cup of clear crystal full of a limpid draught; every man’s eye takes in the cup without each man lying within the cup. And Allah, who is to be likened to what is loftiest, takes in all His creation without being in any of it. Another apt illustration is that of a man who built a house with all its accessories. He then closed the door and went out: he will not fail, thereupon, to know the number of rooms in his house and their size without being inside it. And Allah, who is to be likened to what is loftiest, embraces all that He has created, knowing how and what it is, without being inside any of His creation.
XIII. Allah is by His Knowledge Omnipresent
Bab: An exposition of the Jahmiya interpretation of Allah’s word: ...Three persons speak not privately together, but He is their fourth... 58-8
We said, (referring them to be opening of the same verse), Allah says: Dost thou net see that Allah knoweth all that is in the Heavens and all that is in the earth, by which Allah informs us that He knows what is in the Heavens and on Earth. To which He added: ...Three persons speak not privately together, but He is their fourth... that is, He is so by His knowledge; and, ...Nor five, but He is their sixth –by His knowledge: and ...Nor fewer nor more, but wherever they be He is with them... –by His knowledge: and, ...then on the day of ressurrection He will tell them of their deeds: for Allah knoweth all things. The verse thus begins and ends with Allah’s knowledge.
XIV. A Refutation that Allah is Every Place
Bab: If you wish to know that the Jahmi lies against Allah, in saying that Allah is in every place abd is not in one place to the exclusion of any other,
Say: Was there not Allah when there was nothing else? He will assent. Then say: When He made a thing, did He do so inside or outside of Him? Three possibilities follow: If he asserts that Allah created all things within Himself, including jinn, men and devils, he denies the faith. If he says that He created them outside of Himself and then entered into them, including all the wild, squalid and vile places –this too infidelity. And if he says He created them outside of Himself and then did not enter into them, he has abandoned his position for that of the ahl-Sunna.
Ahmad b. Hanbal, 'Radd 'ala'l-Zandiqah wa'l-Jahmiyyah'
Imaam Ahmad's words on the topic are sufficient.
Thread closed.