Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

A recent comprehensive study concluded that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur'an, but that Christianity and Islamic tradition are incompatible. I read it and I believe it. The study is called Brothers Kept Apart, and it can be partially read on-line at Amazon and Barnes & Noble. It is also available as an e-book for $6 from iUniverse.com

From my previous discussions here, I have found that so few Muslims will read the Bible, yet they continue to criticize their interpretation of Christian tradition. Similarly, few Christians will actually read the Qur’an, but will criticize their interpretation of Islamic tradition.

I have examined the author’s claims and have found that even the most contentious verses in the Qur’an can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the Bible, the rest of the Qur’an, and the historical record, yet, for whatever reason, Islamic tradition interprets them in a contentious way. This is similar for Christian tradition’s interpretation of the Bible.

It seems that Christians and Muslims are brothers who have been unnecessarily kept apart for the past 1,300 years by their religious leaders.

Regards,
Grenville

[Hamayun]

Muslims and Christians are brothers :)

The only parting of ways is that Muslims believe in one God and Christians believe in a "3 in 1" God.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Grenville;

Thanks for starting this thread, beyond a doubt we are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers despite all our differences. So that does make us brothers and sisters together.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship.

Eric

[Walter]

Hi Hamayun:

You have proven my point by reacting to Christian religious tradition rather than what is written in the Bible.

I am convinced that no one converts from Christianity to Islam, instead they abandon their understanding of Christian tradition which they cannot reconcile with the truth. Similarly for Muslims who leave the Islamic tradition that they cannot reconcile with the truth.

Hi Eric H:

I am not talking about the typical interfaith reconciliation compromises that over 95% of adherents on both sides do not take seriously. Rather, there appears to be complete harmony between the principal teachings of both Books, without any compromises whatsoever. I think that you need to read the book.

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[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Grenville;

Hi Eric H:

I am not talking about the typical interfaith reconciliation compromises that over 95% of adherents on both sides do not take seriously.

Ok.

Rather, there appears to be complete harmony between the principal teachings of both Books, without any compromises whatsoever. I think that you need to read the book.

Which suggests that the same God is behind both our faiths. To me this is a reason for interfaith reconciliation, even though 95% on both sides do not take it seriously, there is only one God.

In the spirit of searching for a greater interfaith understanding.

Eric

[doorster]

no doubt He will, one day, let us all know about things on which we differ, perhaps we could put the hatred and lust to kill one another aside until then and instead start competing in doing good deeds which benefit the the needy from amongst us?

[Walter]

Hi Eric:

You are correct. There is one God. However, that fact has not changed the general distrust that Muslims and Christians have beet taught to have for each-other.

If I, as a Christian, knew that the Qur’an does not teach Muslims a contradictory belief, and vice-versa, then we would actually treat each-other as brothers (as opposed to agreeing to respectfully disagree for the sake of peace). The interfaith compromises have not worked for those who need it - the general adherents. However, it has worked for some the leaders who, according to the book, are the ones who have kept Christians and Muslim brothers apart for the past 1,300 years.

Hi Doorster:

Yes, we should help the poor, defend the widow and orphan, assist the stranger, etc. We are taught to “do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.” If we are brothers, then you are included in my household of faith and should benefit from “especially” treatment.

Our religious traditions may differ, and we will be informed of that by God as you have written; however, our core beliefs should not.

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

Muslims and Christians are brothers :)

The only parting of ways is that Muslims believe in one God and Christians believe in a "3 in 1" God.

Muslims are brothers with Muslims only.

We are COUSINS of the Jews and Christians.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Grenville;

If I, as a Christian, knew that the Qur’an does not teach Muslims a contradictory belief, and vice-versa, then we would actually treat each-other as brothers

Sadly I would have to disagree with you, there are hundreds of Christian denominations, yet 95% of what we believe is probably the same. I am a Catholic and we are probably the most dogmatic of all the denominations.

Muslims are divided up into sects, yet most of what they believe is the same.

The last commandment of Jesus was love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples. What tends to happen is Catholics only love other Catholics because we only recognise other Catholics as disciples of Jesus.

It is a lack of love for one another that separates us, like Dooster said

instead start competing in doing good deeds which benefit the the needy from amongst us?

If we could pray together, pray for each other and share in good deeds, then we could overcome all our differences.

In the spirit of praying to One God.

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AntiKarateKid;

Muslims are brothers with Muslims only.

We are COUSINS of the Jews and Christians

Yet the same God hears all our prayers, will the same God judge us as cousins?

Will the same God put all the Hindu together and judge them by the scriptures that were given to them? Will he put all the Muslims together and judge them by the scriptures that were given to them, and the same for the Christians?

The same God will know for sure what is in all our hearts, and what scriptures were given to each and every one of us.

Maybe we are not in a position to judge each other, maybe we need to pray for each other that we might all gain salvation.

Even if my Catholic faith is the one true faith, I would not like to see Muslims, Hindu and atheists end up in hell for not believing as I believe.

In the spirit of praying to One God.

Eric

[Follower]

"Maybe we are not in a position to judge each other, maybe we need to pray for each other that we might all gain salvation."

Matthew 7

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

What gets my ire up - when I am called a pagan, kufir or unbeliever.

[AntiKarateKid]

"Maybe we are not in a position to judge each other, maybe we need to pray for each other that we might all gain salvation."

Matthew 7

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

What gets my ire up - when I am called a pagan, kufir or unbeliever.

And how do you think Hindus feel when Christians call them pagan or unbelievers? Or maybe the people the early Jews fought who worshipped idols?

[Follower]

I don't go around calling people names!!

[Hamayun]

You are correct. There is one God.

If you genuinely believe there is only one God with no partners or Trinity then you are almost there anyway.

To be a Muslim all you have to do is say: "I testify that there is only one God and Muhammad is his messenger".

Since you already believe in one God and pray to him alone with no partners I would say you are only one step away from being a Muslim.

You don't really "convert" from Christianity to Islam, its more like you start following your religion the way it was intended.

[Walter]

Hi Eric H:

You are entirely correct. Catholics and Protestants generally do not consider the other as genuine believers because of differences of religious tradition. The newer independent churches question the religious traditions of more established churches. Therefore, what divides Christians is not the Bible, but our religious traditions. What keeps us divided is our stubborn unwillingness to critically examine our traditions in order to know the truth.

That is why the book Brothers Kept Apart is so refreshing. The author states:
“In my opinion, the most important lesson from studying history is: never be afraid to re-examine the evidence in order to learn or verify the truth. We should never be afraid to critically examine claims of truth, for truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny.” Walter Phillips

Remember Jesus’ warning to those who thoght that they were believers: “You make the commandment of none effect because of your tradition”.

Hi AntiKarateKid:

If a Muslim follows the Qur’an rather than Islamic tradition, and if a Christian follows the Bible instead of Christian tradition, then Christians and Muslims are brothers who have been unnecessarily kept apart for the past 1,300 years. Read the book.

Hi Follower:

The Bible and Qur’an are clear. God is not pleased with those who worship idols. Those who worship idols are pagans. If you worship idols then you are by definition a pagan, idolator, heathen, etc - take your pick. Those are not derogatory terms, they are English terms. However, if you worship the one and only God, who has defined Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the only Creator, the Almighty who has strength without limit, then you are not a pagan. What are you?

Hi Hamayun:

After reading Brothers Kept Apart, it is obvious that God is One, and Mohammed is one of His messengers. However, the book also identifies where Muslims have been taught to follow Islamic religious tradition rather than those parts of the Qur’an that are in harmony with principal Biblical teachings.

Regards,
Grenville

[doorster]

greetings

I got the book and according to it

The Qur’an appears to teach that Muslims must believe that Jesus:

• was born of the virgin Mary;
• taught the Gospel;
• performed many miracles, including raising the dead;
• was crucified;
• was raised by God; and
• is the Messiah.

but according to real Quraan it was made to appear so but they did not kill him nor crucify him

I thought I should mention it, I have not read it all yet (but there are quite a few things in it that are not in Quraan, which it thinks that are in Quraan)

if anyone wants to read a preview click on its cover below for a limited number of pages

[alcurad]

first, I commend you for coming so far:), then, I'll have to say it is not going to happen anytime soon barring a miracle, there is much more to the division than scriptural and traditional differences, there are also the geopolitical issues at hand, which in my view make the larger part of the conflicts at hand.
the qur'an contains the essence of the Torah and Injeel, as such it surpasses both by going beyond them yet holding the principles constant; monotheism being the most important. there can be no going back for a Muslim, to do so would be to regress to an earlier system that is considered to be now largely dysfunctional. the whole point of new prophets is to replace the older traditions,,
religion has been used by the churches and rulers for their own ends, the layperson doe not know much about their own scripture let alone the others'.
economic and social stability brought about mostly by good government and wealth have a larger affect than all the interfaith work done till now..

[Walter]

Hi Doorster:

The Author actually spends two chapters on the crucifixion issue, which he calls the most contentious verse in the Qur’an. His criteria for interpreting verses is to see whether they can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the rest of the Qur’an, the Bible, and the historical record, and that does not damage the integrity of any evidence. If a verse can be interpreted in such a way, then why choose the most contentious interpretation? He also uses the same criteria for the traditional Islamic interpretation. The conclusion supporting Jesus crucifixion is compelling. I tried cut and pasting sections from the cheap ($6) e-book but was unsuccessful.

Regards,
Grenville

[doorster]

Hi Doorster:

The Author actually spends two chapters on the crucifixion issue, which he calls the most contentious verse in the Qur’an. His criteria for interpreting verses is to see whether they can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the rest of the Qur’an, the Bible, and the historical record, and that does not damage the integrity of any evidence. If a verse can be interpreted in such a way, then why choose the most contentious interpretation? He also uses the same criteria for the traditional Islamic interpretation. The conclusion supporting Jesus crucifixion is compelling. I tried cut and pasting sections from the cheap ($6) e-book but was unsuccessful.

Regards,
Grenville

I really do not wish to upset you because for some reason I like you, but I would rather do my own look-ups when it comes to translating the words from the Quraan.

wa ma qataloohu wa ma salaboohu << where is need or room for interpretation?

peace!

edit

I tried cut and pasting sections from the cheap ($6) e-book but was unsuccessful.

is it a secured pdf file?

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi Doorster:

The Author actually spends two chapters on the crucifixion issue, which he calls the most contentious verse in the Qur’an. His criteria for interpreting verses is to see whether they can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the rest of the Qur’an, the Bible, and the historical record, and that does not damage the integrity of any evidence. If a verse can be interpreted in such a way, then why choose the most contentious interpretation? He also uses the same criteria for the traditional Islamic interpretation. The conclusion supporting Jesus crucifixion is compelling. I tried cut and pasting sections from the cheap ($6) e-book but was unsuccessful.

Regards,
Grenville

Because it was the interpretation of the earliest Muslims who are held unanimously to be the best generation.

I understand that you are trying to get some interfaith love going here but keep in mind that Christians are polytheists according to Islam and thus cannot be our brothers. Cousins and friends yes, but not brothers.

[Walter]

Hi AntiKarateKid:

You wrote:

“… Christians are polytheists according to Islam and thus cannot be our brothers. Cousins and friends yes, but not brothers.”

It is Islamic tradition that teaches that Christians are polytheists. The Qur’an (e.g. 2:62) shows that Christians are accepted by God and are therefore your Brothers (with a capital B). Polytheists cannot be Christians, though they may call themselves such. You should read the book on the link provided by Doorster.

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi AntiKarateKid:

You wrote:

“… Christians are polytheists according to Islam and thus cannot be our brothers. Cousins and friends yes, but not brothers.”

It is Islamic tradition that teaches that Christians are polytheists. The Qur’an (e.g. 2:62) shows that Christians are accepted by God and are therefore your Brothers (with a capital B). Polytheists cannot be Christians, though they may call themselves such. You should read the book on the link provided by Doorster.

Regards,
Grenville

You are distorting the Quran to your own ends now. Please stop. That verse says they have nothing to fear assuming the accept the final Prophet. Read it in context.

What do you mean polytheists cannot be Christian? Have you missed the last 1400 years of debate with Muslim scholars and laymen affirming that the trinity is polytheistic.




Please if you are going to quote the Quran, quote it properly. You should read the tafsirs of the Surah before bending the ayat to your will.

[Walter]

Hi AntiKarareKid:

I explained that 2:65 was an example to show brotherhood. Admittedly, it is not explicit enough, but given God’s displeasure with and warnings about idolatry, it is unlikely that those who practise such are on the right path. That was the point of listing 2:65 and not other more explicit verses.

Jesus contrasted the broad way that led to destruction with the narrow way, which had relatively fewer people on it, that led to life. He also explained that there was only one way to God.

The Qur’an appears to explain that God guides believers, all believers, whether they call themselves Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Baha’i, Hog Pog, etc, all believers. God guides all believers to the Truth, to a path that is straight.

“Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.”

Now obviously the Christian would need to stop practising those aspects of Christian tradition that conflict with the Truth of the Bible, and Muslims would need to stop practising those aspects of Islamic tradition which are in conflict with the Truth of the Qur’an, so too with the Jews. With Hindu’s, they would need to stop practising those aspects of Hindu tradition and the Vedas that that are in conflict with the truth in the Bible and the Qur’an, and similarly with the Baha’i, Buddhist, Taoist, etc etc.

Therefore, all of those “believers to the Truth” who are on the “path that is straight” or the “narrow way” must be brothers. If God has guided you to the Truth and you are on the same narrow path as I, then you are no longer AntiKarateKid to me, but Brother AntiKarateKid, despite how offensive Islamic tradition may have taught you to believe that that sounds.

Also, this is not the “interfaith love” that compromises or ignores selective teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an in order to arrive at a uneasy distrusting peace. The Author assumed that both the Bible and the Qur’an are correct, and has reconciled the teachings without damaging the verses in the Qur’an or Bible. I think that you should read the book to discover a different perspective on this matter.

Regards,
Grenville

[YusufNoor]

Hi AntiKarareKid:

I explained that 2:65 was an example to show brotherhood. Admittedly, it is not explicit enough, but given God’s displeasure with and warnings about idolatry, it is unlikely that those who practise such are on the right path. That was the point of listing 2:65 and not other more explicit verses.

Jesus contrasted the broad way that led to destruction with the narrow way, which had relatively fewer people on it, that led to life. He also explained that there was only one way to God.

The Qur’an appears to explain that God guides believers, all believers, whether they call themselves Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Baha’i, Hog Pog, etc, all believers. God guides all believers to the Truth, to a path that is straight.

it may appear that way to you, that however is clearly in error. as a matter of fact the "straight path" you7 talk about is something we, AS MUSLIMS, "ask Allah for guidance to" at least 17 times a day! it goes like this:

Transliteration: Bismi Allahi arrahmani arraheem
Muhsin Khan: In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Transliteration: Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameen
Muhsin Khan: All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Transliteration: Arrahmani arraheem
Muhsin Khan: The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Transliteration: Maliki yawmi addeen
Muhsin Khan: The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

Transliteration: Iyyaka naAAbudu wa-iyyaka nastaAAeen
Muhsin Khan: You (Alone) we worship, and you (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

Transliteration: Ihdina assirata almustaqeem
Muhsin Khan: Guide us to the Straight Way

Transliteration: Sirata allatheena anAAamta AAalayhim ghayri almaghdoobi AAalayhim wala addalleen
Muhsin Khan: The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

we ask Allah to guide us to the straight path: Ihdina assirata almustaqeem, which is why i used the Muhsin Khan translation. it specifically tells us NOT the path of the Jews(those who earned Your Anger) or Christians(those who went astray.) while the verse could also include ANYONE who angers Allah or who goes astray, we are told point blank in the very first Surah in the Qur'an that Christians are in error!

“Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.”

Now obviously the Christian would need to stop practising those aspects of Christian tradition that conflict with the Truth of the Bible, and Muslims would need to stop practising those aspects of Islamic tradition which are in conflict with the Truth of the Qur’an, so too with the Jews. With Hindu’s, they would need to stop practising those aspects of Hindu tradition and the Vedas that that are in conflict with the truth in the Bible and the Qur’an, and similarly with the Baha’i, Buddhist, Taoist, etc etc.

Therefore, all of those “believers to the Truth” who are on the “path that is straight” or the “narrow way” must be brothers. If God has guided you to the Truth and you are on the same narrow path as I, then you are no longer AntiKarateKid to me, but Brother AntiKarateKid, despite how offensive Islamic tradition may have taught you to believe that that sounds.

Also, this is not the “interfaith love” that compromises or ignores selective teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an in order to arrive at a uneasy distrusting peace. The Author assumed that both the Bible and the Qur’an are correct, and has reconciled the teachings without damaging the verses in the Qur’an or Bible. I think that you should read the book to discover a different perspective on this matter.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

your intentions may be good, but i suggest that you throw the book away! the author has no clue as to what Islam is.

in fact, we are taught that if Moses, pbuh, were alive today, he would follow the path laid out by Rasulullah Muhammad ibn Abdullah, pbuh, and that when Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, pbuh, returns that he will rule as a Muslim!

for a little further clarification notice:

Iyyaka naAAbudu wa-iyyaka nastaAAeen; which translates roughly as:You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
it describes our faith pretty well! You ALONE we worship! we worship Allah alone and without partners as taught to us by Rasulullah Muhammad ibn Abdullah, pbuh; and You ALONE we ask fo help! we don't worship Jesus or some mysterious holy ghost, nor do we pray to Jesus or Mary of Christopher or Jude or anyone else!

and to repeat myself, we learn this in the very first Surah, Al Fatihah!

maybe Walter Phillips missed that one. :rolleyes:


:w:

[Walter]

Oh YusufNoor:

You have allowed Islamic tradition to cause you to needlessly distrust those whom you know not. How could you have taken, perhaps the most beautiful set of verses in the Qur’an and misinterpreted them so completely.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Every Believer, Christian and Muslim, should pray this with you.

Regarding the book, please be advised that the Author agrees with you that God ALONE must be worshipped. Why don’t you read it before jumping to your conclusions – that is not the right way Yusuf, not the right way at all.

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

Oh YusufNoor:

You have allowed Islamic tradition to cause you to needlessly distrust those whom you know not. How could you have taken, perhaps the most beautiful set of verses in the Qur’an and misinterpreted them so completely.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Every Believer, Christian and Muslim, should pray this with you.

Regarding the book, please be advised that the Author agrees with you that God ALONE must be worshipped. Why don’t you read it before jumping to your conclusions – that is not the right way Yusuf, not the right way at all.

Regards,
Grenville

Enough. For your own sake, do not quote the Quran because you have absolutely no knowledge of it, the context the verses were revealed it, or the point behind Islam.

Let's open our eyes here and remove the rainbows.


God does not send prophets because it's fun for him.


Prophet Muhammad was sent to correct the pagans, JEWS AND CHRISTIANS.


Do not dismiss Islamic tradition which is an awkward word since it is based upon the very acts of the Prophet and a CORRECT interpretation of the Quran dating back from the best generation. So it is the essence of Islam not the tradition.



Christians and Jews must change, that is the point of a Prophet. If they decide not to, they will answer to God who will not be too pleased that the Christians worship Jesus pbuh and the Jews reject everyone they fancy.

[Walter]

Oh AntiKarateKid:

Why don’t you simply read the book. When you push against an open door, you will fall and bruise your face. The Author agrees with you. Mohammed’s words are very relevant for Christians and Jews who have strayed from what God has revealed in the Bible to their man made traditions. Mohammed’s words are also relevant to Muslims who have embraced Islamic traditions that are not compatible with the Qur’an. Why don’t you just read it instead of pushing so hard against an open door?

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

Oh AntiKarateKid:

Why don’t you simply read the book. When you push against an open door, you will fall and bruise your face. The Author agrees with you. Mohammed’s words are very relevant for Christians and Jews who have strayed from what God has revealed in the Bible to their man made traditions. Mohammed’s words are also relevant to Muslims who have embraced Islamic traditions that are not compatible with the Qur’an. Why don’t you just read it instead of pushing so hard against an open door?

Regards,
Grenville

With respect, please address the points I made before or else our conversation is in vain.

Why don't you read the Quran (preferably tafsirs to understand the context of verses) and Hadith before commenting on what Islam is supposed to mean?

[Walter]

OK AntiKarateKid:

Let me respond to your specific points.

Enough. For your own sake, do not quote the Quran because you have absolutely no knowledge of it, the context the verses were revealed it, or the point behind Islam.

I have read it several times. I have also read Mohammed’s biography by Ishaq, and the Bukhari hadith in an attempt to put the chapters in their historical context. What more do you want me to read?

Let's open our eyes here and remove the rainbows.

Yes, let us do this.

God does not send prophets because it's fun for him.

We are in complete agreement here.

Prophet Muhammad was sent to correct the pagans, JEWS AND CHRISTIANS.

We are in partial agreement. I agree with you that he was sent to correct the pagans. However, he was also sent to correct the Jews and Christians who had strayed from the revelation sent to them by God to their man-made traditions. Jesus told the Jews that they made “the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” Mohammed could have told the Christians and Jews who had strayed the same thing.

Do not dismiss Islamic tradition which is an awkward word since it is based upon the very acts of the Prophet and a CORRECT interpretation of the Quran dating back from the best generation. So it is the essence of Islam not the tradition.

Here we are in partial agreement. I do not dismiss Islamic tradition. Islamic tradition which preserves the teachings of the Qur’an, so that they are easily passed to the next generation is very good. However, Islamic tradition that includes subjective interpretations in conflict with the Qur’an are not so good.

Christians and Jews must change, that is the point of a Prophet. If they decide not to, they will answer to God who will not be too pleased that the Christians worship Jesus pbuh and the Jews reject everyone they fancy.

Here we are also in partial agreement. Some Christian and Jews must change, not all. The Some are those who stubbornly embrace their traditions which are in conflict with the Bible. Hear Jesus once more: “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.”

I think that I see where we differ. If I realize that my religious tradition handed down to me conflicts with the revelation in the Bible, then I am willing to critically examine my religious tradition because I do not want to be unintentionally misled. Therefore, I recognize, as discomforting as it may be, that my traditions may not always be in harmony with the teachings of the Bible.

It seems that you are entirely convinced (perhaps by your religious tradition) that Islamic tradition and the Qur’an are never ever and can never ever be in conflict. If that is the case, then you will be blind to any evidence to the contrary, and Brothers Kept Apart which is filled with such evidence, may not be the book for you. There is a book entitled The Way of the Mule … actually, let me not go there.

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

You read it "several times" huh? I doubt you ever looked at the tafsirs of those verses or you wouldn't have been immediately argued with for your interpretation of the ayat from before by actual Muslims. (owning a book, reading a book, and understanding a book are separate things).


Also, you have not defined what your referring to as "Islamic tradition" even is. I am objecting to your universalist approach to religion. I get the feeling that you want Muslims to just adopt a view along the lines of "everyone is right, we should just hold hands and sing." This was not the way of the Prophets, early Muslims, or opinion of every respected SCHOLAR of Islam.

Simply put, if a Jew or Christian is exposed to the true teachings of Islam, it is their duty to revert or earn the displeasure of Allah.

[48:28] He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over all other religions. Allah suffices as a witness.

[Hamayun]

Can I just say... lets be nice to Brother Grenville. He seems to have the right intentions.

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious?. (16:125)

"Say: 'O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than God.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will).'" (3:64)

Peace :)

[doorster]

....

[YusufNoor]

Oh YusufNoor:

You have allowed Islamic tradition to cause you to needlessly distrust those whom you know not.

what the heck are you on about? i studied Christianity for years, i was brought up Catholic. no Islamic tradition has cause me anything regarding Christians


How could you have taken, perhaps the most beautiful set of verses in the Qur’an and misinterpreted them so completely.

actually, the transliteration is more accurate. anything in English is just interpretation; and i used Muhsin Khan's translation because it contains some Tafseer in it. and the Tafseer on Surat Al Fatihah is that in

Sirata allatheena anAAamta AAalayhim ghayri almaghdoobi AAalayhim wala addalleen


is that those who have "earned Thine anger" are the Jews and those who have "gone astray" are the Christians!

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Every Believer, Christian and Muslim, should pray this with you.

EXACTLY and they should do so as Muslims!

Regarding the book, please be advised that the Author agrees with you that God ALONE must be worshipped. Why don’t you read it before jumping to your conclusions – that is not the right way Yusuf, not the right way at all.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Muslims don't need to read ANY book on Christianity, especially one in which the author doesn't understand Islam. EVERYTHING that a Muslim might need to know about Jesus, pbuh, they can learn in Islam.

IF YOU would like to know more about Surat Al Fatihah, listen to these lectures by Shaykh Jamaaluddin Zarabozo, another former Catholic:

http://www.kalamullah.com/al-fatihah.html

you will learn ALOT about Islam, In Sha'a Allah, if you listen.

[and you can still throw the book away! :D]

:w:

[Walter]

Hi AntiKareteKid:

1. It is my understanding that Islamic tradition comprises what Muslims are expected to believe and how they are expected to behave. Ideally, all aspects of Islamic tradition should be supported by the Qur’an. Do you agree with this definition?

Also, you have not defined what your referring to as "Islamic tradition" even is. I am objecting to your universalist approach to religion. I get the feeling that you want Muslims to just adopt a view along the lines of "everyone is right, we should just hold hands and sing." This was not the way of the Prophets, early Muslims, or opinion of every respected SCHOLAR of Islam.

2. I have no universalist approach to religion. If there is only one way to God, then whoever is not on this way is going in the wrong direction. Which is the right way? It is the way that God has revealed? Christians claim that God has revealed the right way to them in the Bible. Muslims claim that God has revealed the right way to them in the Qur’an.

The Bible and the Qur’an express disappointment in those who received God’s revelation but did not always follow it, preferring instead followed their own developed man-made religious traditions or practices. Therefore, if this is correct, then why should anyone be surprised that there is harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an, but disharmony between the principal teachings of the religious traditions.

I started this thread noting that I had read a book called Brothers Kept Apart, which assumed that the Qur’an was correct. The Author did not ignore inconvenient verses, or damage the integrity of the verses. He simply found that they could be interpreted in a way that was in harmony with the rest of the Qur’an, the Bible, and the historical record.

Simply put, if a Jew or Christian is exposed to the true teachings of Islam, it is their duty to revert or earn the displeasure of Allah.

Here is where we have partial agreement. I believe that if a Jew or Christian is exposed to the true teachings of Islam, they would be better Jews or Christians. Similarly, if you were exposed to the true teachings of Christianity, you would be a better Muslim.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi YusufNoor:

You wrote:

Muslims don't need to read ANY book on Christianity, especially one in which the author doesn't understand Islam. EVERYTHING that a Muslim might need to know about Jesus, pbuh, they can learn in Islam.

If you truly believe this, then God will have to guide you to the Truth.

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

In essence it seems like you as a Christian are trying to advise Muslims on how to better follow Islam while using baseless interpretations of the Quran and no further supporting evidence.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Grenville;

Here is where we have partial agreement. I believe that if a Jew or Christian is exposed to the true teachings of Islam, they would be better Jews or Christians. Similarly, if you were exposed to the true teachings of Christianity, you would be a better Muslim.

I have often found that reading the explanations from my Muslim friends on this forum; has helped me to understand my Christian faith in a deeper way. I always try and search for a greatest good interpretation of the things I read.

We will only come closer if we can pray and work together as Doorster suggests in doing good deeds together.

There are tasks in this world that are too big for any one group of people to fight, injustice, poverty, HIV, helping the sick, building communities that care for each other, despite all the diversity.

In the spirit of praying to one God for justice for the oppressed.

Eric

[Walter]

Hi Eric:

It seems that I have upset AntiKarateKid. He refuses to read the book, yet he has developed an unshakable conclusion based on what is written in the book - which he refuses to read. I am not accustomed to that level of stubbornness. Where is Woodrow when you need him?

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi Eric:

It seems that I have upset AntiKarateKid. He refuses to read the book, yet he has developed an unshakable conclusion based on what is written in the book - which he refuses to read. I am not accustomed to that level of stubbornness. Where is Woodrow when you need him?

Regards,
Grenville

Because I disagree strongly with you I have to be upset and stubborn?

Not once have I called you any name, yet here you are calling me stubborn.

Listen. You keep telling me to read the book... I have a suggestion. Just a small one.


Understand the Quran, hadith and Islam before you try and lecture to Muslims about how to be Muslim.

You say that you have read the Quran "many times" yet as soon as you provided your interpretation for a verse in it, you were opposed and refuted by my fellow Muslims.

It is you who must start reading the Quran properly. But I understand that you as a Christian are not interested in understanding a source that opposes your views and are content to whimsically misquote it.





But by all means keep distorting the Quran if you want. But be ready for people with proper knowledge to oppose you.

[lomah]

Howdy every one!

I am looking to be enlightened by some one who reads the Qur'an a lot and Prays to God for God's interpritation and not a man's. I am a Christian that seeks God's interpritation and I try to stay away from "christian" traditions that are not in the Bible. From what I have read in the Bible that God wants all "humans" with him in Heaven. I second the this! I am not a scolar and I do not even speak and write english to well but I do wish to understand the "True Muslim Faith". I hope that I am in the right place... May i ask a few questions here?

[Hamayun]

Howdy every one!

I am looking to be enlightened by some one who reads the Qur'an a lot and Prays to God for God's interpritation and not a man's. I am a Christian that seeks God's interpritation and I try to stay away from "christian" traditions that are not in the Bible. From what I have read in the Bible that God wants all "humans" with him in Heaven. I second the this! I am not a scolar and I do not even speak and write english to well but I do wish to understand the "True Muslim Faith". I hope that I am in the right place... May i ask a few questions here?

Welcome Brother :)
You are in the right place.
Please feel free to ask any questions :)

[lomah]

Thank you for that warm welcome. This is my second entry on this site. Just a generic quest to start.

Is the biography on the History Channel about Mohammad accurate?

[YusufNoor]

Thank you for that warm welcome. This is my second entry on this site. Just a generic quest to start.

Is the biography on the History Channel about Mohammad accurate?

:sl:

which one? Secrets of the Qur'an or the special sold with it? [probably not as alot of things are glossed over or just misrepresented]

here's a link to the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him:

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me...rophet%20(pbuh)

they are actually starting over again also:

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me..._Nabawi%20(saw)

while most people have never heard of Dr Bahsar Shala, i have found his lectures to be VERY inspiring and his knowledge well based and researched.

i KNOW it's VERY long, but it lays the foundation for understanding Islam and the Qur'an.

:w:

[doorster]

.....

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you lomah; and welcome to the forum.

I hope you find some answers to your questions, they are a helpful bunch here.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I am guessing here, but even if mankind only had one set of scriptures given to them, we would still find ways to argue and fight about them.

What seems to be lacking is brotherly love, or even cousinly love.

Harmony between our faiths can only come about through brotherly love.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Walter]

Hi AntiKarateKid:

It seems that I may have misinterpreted your posts. I thought that you were upset. Please forgive me. Let us at least agree on our positions.

I have recommended a book that I believe has the potential to reconcile Christians and Muslims, who have been taught, unnecessarily, to endure an unreceptive and argumentative relationship for the past 1,300 years.

You have no intention of reading the book.

We agree that God has revealed his revelation to Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why then is it so difficult to believe that just maybe, the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an could be in harmony? If there is disharmony, then would that not mean that there were two different sources of the revelation?

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi AntiKarateKid:

It seems that I may have misinterpreted your posts. I thought that you were upset. Please forgive me. Let us at least agree on our positions.

I have recommended a book that I believe has the potential to reconcile Christians and Muslims, who have been taught, unnecessarily, to endure an unreceptive and argumentative relationship for the past 1,300 years.

You have no intention of reading the book.

We agree that God has revealed his revelation to Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why then is it so difficult to believe that just maybe, the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an could be in harmony? If there is disharmony, then would that not mean that there were two different sources of the revelation?

Regards,
Grenville

Because Christians worship Jesus as God in a trinity and the cornerstone of Islam is a trancendant indivisable God?

Because Allah says in the Quran that Christians and Jews have corrupted their books? And historical evidence backs this up?

Because in the end there is only one truth from God not many? And whomever opposes this truth earns the displeasure of God and the followers of the truth?






Aaaaaaand Finally because you still have not answered my request that you study the Quran properly before making conclusions about it? Especially when every intepretation you put forth is immediately refuted by people who are actually Muslim?

You know it might just be necessary to do the above before citing a book that talks about the Quran? Just maybe.

[ninetrey]

Muslims and Christians are brothers :)

The only parting of ways is that Muslims believe in one God and Christians believe in a "3 in 1" God.

no they are not! because brothers use to talk to each other hang around with each other but thats forbidden in islam because the quran says

"dont be friends with christians and jews because if you be friends with them you become one of them"!

islamic monotheism thats what its all about!

[doorster]

no they are not! because brothers use to talk to each other hang around with each other but thats forbidden in islam because the quran says

"dont be friends with christians and jews because if you be friends with them you become one of them"!

islamic monotheism thats what its all about!

you seem to have come a long way since our last unpleasant encounter, meaning that you've learnt to misquote from our holy Quraan since then

:(

if an Egyptian brother had used your logic and shunned Estes family they would still be family of Christian Evangelists

Muslims are allowed to be friends with Christians and Jews
Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi states: (in an answer to a question)The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: [O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.] (Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)

In another place in the Qur'an, Allah Almighty says:

[Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)

Moreover, Allah Almighty has described Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as "a mercy" to the worlds. He was a sign of Allah's Mercy to all, Muslims as well as non-Muslims. In his kindness and fair treatment he did not make any difference between the believers and non-believers. He was kind to the pagans of Makkah and fought them only when they fought him. He made treaties with the Jews of Madinah and honored the treaties until they broke them.

He (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have received the Christians of Najran with kindness in his Masjid in Madinah. They argued with him about Islam, but he returned them with honor and respect. There are many examples from his life that show that he was the friendliest person to all people.

In the verse you quoted, the word "Awliya" is used. It is a plural and its singular is "wali". The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".

In the Qur'an this word is used for God, such as [Allah is the Protector (or Lord and Master) of those who believe. He takes them out from the depths of darkness to light…] (Al- Baqarah 2: 257)

There are many other references in the Qur'an that give this meaning. The same word is also sometimes used in the Qur'an for human beings, such as [And whosoever is killed unjustly, We have granted his next kin "wali" the authority (to seek judgement or punishment in this case)…] (Al-‘Isra' 17 :33)

The correct translation of the verse in Surat Al-Ma’idah is: [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)

It is obvious that Jews patronize the Jews and Christians patronize the Christians, so why not Muslims patronize Muslims and support their own people. This verse is not telling us to be against Jews or Christians, but it is telling us that we should take care of our own people and we must support each other.

In his Tafsir, (Qur’an exegesis) Imam Ibn Kathir has mentioned that some scholars say that this verse (i.e. the one you referred to) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68)

Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. You are correct in pointing out that a Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says: [O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya') your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.] (Al-Tawbah 9: 23)

In a similar way, the Qur'an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims's duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from oppression. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said that he himself will defend a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non-Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah Almighty says, [Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers…] (Aal-'Imran 3: 28)

He Almighty also says: [O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?] (An-Nisaa’ 4:144)
further reading:

Domains of Muslim-Christian Cooperation
Do Muslims Hate non-Muslims?
Justice and Compassion: Ethics and Our Responsibilities
Allah Almighty knows best.

[Hamayun]

no they are not! because brothers use to talk to each other hang around with each other but thats forbidden in islam because the quran says

"dont be friends with christians and jews because if you be friends with them you become one of them"!

islamic monotheism thats what its all about!

You are refering to Christians who associate partners with Allah....


I am talking to a Christian who believes there is only one God and Muhammad pbuh is his messenger.

There is a monumental difference!!! ^o)

[Walter]

Hi AntiKarateKid:

Lets try this again.

Because Christians worship Jesus as God in a trinity and the cornerstone of Islam is a transcendent indivisible God?

If you would have read the book like I asked you, you would have realized that Biblical support for the Christian tradition of the Trinity is weak. Perhaps if us Christians spent the same effort critically examining the Bible as we do in defending our religious traditions, we would have reconciled with you a long time ago.

Because Allah says in the Quran that Christians and Jews have corrupted their books? And historical evidence backs this up?

This is an Islamic traditional argument with weak support in the Qur’an. Perhaps if Muslims spent the same effort critically examining the Qur’an as they do defending their religious traditions, you would have reconciled with us a long time ago.

Because in the end there is only one truth from God not many? And whomever opposes this truth earns the displeasure of God and the followers of the truth?

Finally, we are in complete agreement. There may be hope for us yet AntiKarateKid!

Aaaaaaand Finally because you still have not answered my request that you study the Quran properly before making conclusions about it? Especially when every intepretation you put forth is immediately refuted by people who are actually Muslim? You know it might just be necessary to do the above before citing a book that talks about the Quran? Just maybe.

Oh dear. Just when we had a glimmer of hope ….

You asked me to study the Qur’an before making conclusions about it, but here you are making conclusions about a book which you refuse to read.

You would note that I joined IslamicBoard a few months before you did. You may also be aware that I was away from this Board for about one year. Doing what? Studying several English versions of the Qur’an, Ishaq’s biography of Mohammed, and some hadiths. So I have sought and gained knowledge, and have come to tell you that there is hope for us all.

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi AntiKarateKid:

Lets try this again.



If you would have read the book like I asked you, you would have realized that Biblical support for the Christian tradition of the Trinity is weak. Perhaps if us Christians spent the same effort critically examining the Bible as we do in defending our religious traditions, we would have reconciled with you a long time ago.



This is an Islamic traditional argument with weak support in the Qur’an. Perhaps if Muslims spent the same effort critically examining the Qur’an as they do defending their religious traditions, you would have reconciled with us a long time ago.



Finally, we are in complete agreement. There may be hope for us yet AntiKarateKid!


Oh dear. Just when we had a glimmer of hope ….

You asked me to study the Qur’an before making conclusions about it, but here you are making conclusions about a book which you refuse to read.

You would note that I joined IslamicBoard a few months before you did. You may also be aware that I was away from this Board for about one year. Doing what? Studying several English versions of the Qur’an, Ishaq’s biography of Mohammed, and some hadiths. So I have sought and gained knowledge, and have come to tell you that there is hope for us all.

Regards,
Grenville

This is an Islamic traditional argument with weak support in the Qur’an. Perhaps if Muslims spent the same effort critically examining the Qur’an as they do defending their religious traditions, you would have reconciled with us a long time ago.

Lol? Is this a joke? You think that Islam does not regard the Bible as corrupt? If it wasnt corrupt, Christians would have converted to Islam long ago. I'm not even going to get into this one because it is obvious that you are blocking out whatever essential parts of Islam you desire.


You would note that I joined IslamicBoard a few months before you did. You may also be aware that I was away from this Board for about one year. Doing what? Studying several English versions of the Qur’an, Ishaq’s biography of Mohammed, and some hadiths. So I have sought and gained knowledge, and have come to tell you that there is hope for us all.


Are you trying to pass off reading yourself and joining an Islamic website as equal to seeking the experience of scholars who have lifetime access to a broader variety of sources than you and actually read and analyze the tafsirs you shun in favor of your own erroneous interpretations?

[Walter]

Hi AntiKarateKid:

Well, it is clear that I there will be no complete agreement between us.

If a verse in the Qur’an could reasonably be interpreted in two ways.
1. one that was in conflict with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an;
2. another that was consistent with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an.

Which would you choose? Why do I believe that you will chose option 1.

Regards,
Grenville

[doorster]

Hi AntiKarateKid:

Well, it is clear that I there will be no complete agreement between us.

If a verse in the Qur’an could reasonably be interpreted in two ways.
1. one that was in conflict with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an;
2. another that was consistent with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an.

Which would you choose? Why do I believe that you will chose option 1.

Regards,
Grenville

ok enough!

If a verse in the Qur’an could reasonably be interpreted in two ways

greetings

anything can be interpreted a hundred different ways, that does not make them correct.

I asked you this earlier but you ignored it or overlooked it due to all this to'ing and fro'ing

let us start again one last time, I like Brother Eric because he lets me be and I let him be, you on the other hand seem to be bent on creating a new religion.

We must agree to disagree because there is no room for interpretations just translation will do me nicely as long as they all agree on the essence of the message regardless of the wording used in those translations.

I would like to ask you to go back to previous posts and look again at
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1105530
and
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1105550

look for the words Qatal and Salab and tell me how many interpretation are possible?

Peace

[Walter]

Hi Doorster:

Since you are now the only person in this thread who appears to have actually read the book, other than myself, I am happy that we can finally reason together. Let me state that I was quite excited at the book's contents because I had come to similar conclusions.

Before we discuss the book, let me briefly respond to your last post.

anything can be interpreted a hundred different ways, that does not make them correct.

I agree with you completely, that is why criteria need to be stated. As you are aware, the author used the interpretative criteria of:
• the interpretation must be supported by the evidence;
• the interpretation must not damage the integrity of the evidence; and
• the assumptions used in interpreting the evidence must be verified.

While such criteria cannot guarantee that the interpretationa are 100% accurate, they can identify incorrect interpretations.

let us start again one last time, I like Brother Eric because he lets me be and I let him be, you on the other hand seem to be bent on creating a new religion.

There must be a major misunderstanding if you think that I wish to create a new religion. However, let us agree to simply ignore the incorrect assertion.

We must agree to disagree because there is no room for interpretations just translation will do me nicely as long as they all agree on the essence of the message regardless of the wording used in those translations.

Yes Doorster. If after discussing an issue we fail to reach an agreement, then we should respectfully agree to disagree. However, if no one will read the book, then we cannot have the discussion which will either lead to an agreement or a respectful disagreement. I am heartened that I can finally have that discussion in this forum. May God bless you with an abndance of understanding so that we can all know the truth, including myself.

I would like to ask you to go back to previous posts and look again .. look for the words Qatal and Salab and tell me how many interpretation are possible?

My answer to that is simple. I do not know. I speak and read English fluently, I know some Spanish and French and a little Latin, but no Arabic. Therefore, I must rely on English translations.

Now, to the book. I suppose we can review it chapter by chapter, starting with chapter 1. Do you agree with the conclusions reached in Chapter 1?

Regards,
Grenville

[lomah]

It was actually a "Biography" on the History Channel about Mohammad. I watched it on youtube. I also watched a few video about the history of Islam.

How do you get to heaven according to the Qu'an?

[doorster]

Hi Doorster:

..........


My answer to that is simple. I do not know. I speak and read English fluently, I know some Spanish and French and a little Latin, but no Arabic. Therefore, I must rely on English translations.

.....
Regards,
Grenville

hi

that is a reason enough, for us two, to peacefully leave one another to their own understanding of the crucifixion/non-crucifixion.

Peace!

.......

How do you get to heaven according to the Qu'an?

try this >> http://www.islamicboard.com/seeking-...ml#post1106058

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you doorster;

I like Brother Eric because he lets me be and I let him be,

Thank you very much brother doorster, religion seems to be a conflict, on the one hand I have a deep faith in Christianity, and it would be so much easier if everyone shared my beliefs. On the other hand there is the two greatest commandments, the things I should do over and above all else.

I want the freedom from Muslims, Hindu, atheist and all others, to try and grow in faith as a Catholic, but if I want this freedom for myself I should want it for all my neighbours too. Muslims want the freedom to live in peace with Islam, and freedom for Hindu, atheist, and all others.

you on the other hand seem to be bent on creating a new religion.

I perceive Grenville’s intentions to search for harmony between beliefs, as a way of living in harmony together. I do not think he wants to form a new religion called Christoislam.

anything can be interpreted a hundred different ways, that does not make them correct.

Between the Bible and the Koran there must be over a thousand verses relating to justice for the poor, all these verses may be open to interpretation. But the bottom line is these thousand verses are trying to inspire us to get up and do something about the problem today. They are not intended that we should squabble over meaning, and why can’t Muslims and Christians work together to seek justice for the poor.

In the spirit of praying for justice for the poor and oppressed.

Eric

[Walter]

Oh Doorester. What a disappointment.

Well, before this thread is closed, permit me to briefly describe the initial chapters that Doorester and AntiKarateKid concluded (without reading them) that were so abhorrent and incorrectly interpreted.

Brothers Kept Apart

Essentially the author assumed that if God’s revelation was contained in both the Bible and the Qur’an, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between both books.

Chapter 1 – Is the God of the Bible the same God as the Qur’an?

The author provided compelling evidence to show that the God of the Bible, who is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the only Creator, is the same God referred to in the Qur’an.

Chapter 2 - Could Mohammed have been a Prophet of God?

The Author provided compelling evidence from the Bible and the Qur’an, to show that Mohammed was a prophet sent by God. He also showed how Mohammed’s message was consistent with that of the prophets that God sent to the Israelites.

Since these interpretations have been found to be not only incorrect, but too offensive to even consider, then it seems that we are destined to remain apart until the end of the age, where you will have ample opportunity to explain your adversarial stance.

Regards,
Grenville

[alcurad]

Since these interpretations have been found to be not only incorrect, but too offensive to even consider, then it seems that we are destined to remain apart until the end of the age, where you will have ample opportunity to explain your adversarial stance.

Regards,
Grenville

it's not offensive, or too incorrect, rather tempers flare when such core matters are discussed, keep trying:), I might not agree with every single detail, but I commend your efforts:)

[doorster]

it's not offensive, or too incorrect, rather tempers flare when such core matters are discussed, keep trying:), I might not agree with every single detail, but I commend your efforts:)

can you point out where I did what he alleges?

or too incorrect

you mean that it can be translated as he was killed and he was crucified?

can you break it down for me word for word. after all I am only an illiterate non Arab

also can you show me how and why he associated me whit this anty karatekid person?

[alcurad]

can you point out where I did what he alleges?

you mean that it can be translated as he was killed and he was crucified?

can you break it down for me word for word. after all I am only an illiterate non Arab

also can you show me how and why he associated me whit this anty karatekid person?

doorster, I meant it generally, and no , I don't mean like he was killed and crucified by them since that would contradict the qur'an.
he accepted our prophet as such,although he had some misunderstanding about the muslim position on the death of Jesus and so on, I consider this to be an improvement on the ones who reject it all as false.
since I wasn't following this thread much, I wasn't making specific remarks on any single person. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me, and please don't disparage yourself like that, non arab and illiterate are not synonymous.

[doorster]

doorster, I meant it generally, and no , I don't mean like he was killed and crucified since that would contradict the qur'an.
he accepted our prophet as such,although he had some misunderstanding about the muslim position on the death of Jesus and so on, I consider this to be something good.
since I wasn't following this thread much, I wasn't making specific remarks on any single person. and please don't disparage yourself like that, non arab and illiterate are not synonymous.

that is the only thing I openly differed with him on, I was the one who rated the thread tops, I was the one who reported trolls to stop them messing it up, yet I am the one who is accused by him.

he had some misunderstanding about the Muslim position on the death of Jesus and so on

I was and am willing to be Brothers with those who let me believe what I believe, but there are people who will only accept me as brother if I believe what they want me to believe but I have no time for those people.

BTW I am trying to retire or at least take a break from this den of misguidance for the duration of the break of one of my brothers in faith, because without his presence I get harassment from little kiddies and fraudsters via PMs etc. so excuse me if I do not reply until about May time

wa Salam

[alcurad]

rather than that, I would suggest not getting too attached emotionally to LI, it's an online forum where anyone can/does post:)

[Walter]

Hi Doorester:

Let me apologize to you, for you appear to be offended. I do appreciate your efforts in this thread, and my last post was venting a little frustration on my part.

I was led to believe that you actually read the book. I was excited at the thought of finally conversing with someone who had read it, because it is quite a remarkable and comprehensive study. The author spent 30 years studying the over 20,000 pages of early church history to see where potential misinterpretations could have been made, and then found harmony after conducting a comparative analysis of both books. Then it became clear that you had not read it at all and we are frustratingly back at square one.

[bibleblevr]

I have some questions for Muslims regarding the bible:

1 Is the Bible considered true in your religion, if so why do you contradict Jesus's claim to be the son of God which is the base of Christianity.

2 Was Mohammad originally a christian before he received his prophetic revelation and if he wasn't than why did he base so much of the Koran off the Bible .

3 Finally what part of the Koran disagrees with the bible and if no part disagrees and it is basically a repeat of the what the bible says, than why did a religion begin from it.

Thank you, and May God Bless you in your quest to know him better.

[lomah]

bibleblevr,

How are you doing?

What do you feel are the two greatest Command meants?

Lomah

[lomah]

"Commandments"

[bibleblevr]

doing good,
"What do I think the Two greatest commandments meant?"--- I think That is self explanatory love the lord with all your heart, mind and spirit and love your neighbor as your self.
I haven't been following the thread so why do you ask?

[lomah]

From what I see here is that brothers, step brothers, and Adopted brothers have a lot of reasons to fight, but they do not have to fight each other.

Ephesians 6:"12": For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Acts 1:"38": And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

"39": But if it'> be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

[Imam]

I have some questions for Muslims regarding the bible:

1 Is the Bible considered true in your religion, if so why do you contradict Jesus's claim to be the son of God which is the base of Christianity.

2 Was Mohammad originally a christian before he received his prophetic revelation and if he wasn't than why did he base so much of the Koran off the Bible .

3 Finally what part of the Koran disagrees with the bible and if no part disagrees and it is basically a repeat of the what the bible says, than why did a religion begin from it.

Thank you, and May God Bless you in your quest to know him better.

Greetings


I think if I answer the questions the thread will change its goal....


I hope you start new thread with the same questions...

[YusufNoor]

I have some questions for Muslims regarding the bible:

1 Is the Bible considered true in your religion, if so why do you contradict Jesus's claim to be the son of God which is the base of Christianity.

there was no "Bible" as you understand it in the time of Jesus/Isa ibm Marriam, pbuh. there was no "Bible" as you understand it even within a hundred years or so of Jesus/Isa ibm Marriam, pbuh. as there is no contemporaneous written Holy Book from Jesus/Isa ibm Marriam, pbuh himself, we reject any claims not consistent with the Qur'an or Tawheed. we believe Christianity to be in error regarding the godship and sonship of Jesus/Isa ibm Marriam, pbuh.


2 Was Mohammad originally a christian before he received his prophetic revelation and if he wasn't than why did he base so much of the Qur'ran off the Bible.

no, Muhammad ibn Abdullah, pbuh, was NOT a Chrisitan, he was of those who were referred to as a Hanifan, which is one who believes in Islamic Monotheism. Islam is the religion of our father, Ibrahim, pbuh.


3 Finally what part of the Qur'ran disagrees with the bible and if no part disagrees and it is basically a repeat of the what the bible says, than why did a religion begin from it.

we consider the entire biblios collection[ie, YOUR bible] to be unreliable and therefore we take our Religion from our Creator thru His final Messenger, Muhammad ibn Abdullah, pbuh.

Thank you, and May God Bless you in your quest to know him better.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

thank you for your interest in Islam.

in answering your questions:

1. NO, the bible is NOT considered true, but does contain bits and pieces of Truth. thus, Jews and "Christians" are sometimes referred to as "People of the Book."

2, the premise of this question is FALSE. Muhammad ibn Abdullah, pbuh, did NOT write the Qur'an. the Qur'an is the literal Word of Our Creator and your Creator.

3. because the original Messsage of Jesus/Isa ibm Marriam,pbuh, was only intended for the lost sheep of Israel and because no contemporaneous writings are left of him, it was necessary for Our Creator to send a Scripture that a) could not be corrupted and b) was for all mankind, we yet again return to the Religion of our father in faith Ibrahim, pbuh. Islam is NOT new, some parts of the Shariah ay be different than previous Ummahs, but the basic tenets of the faith, Islamic Monotheism are the same.

:sl:

[Walter]

Hi Bibleblevr:

For completion, let me provide a response to your questions from another perspective. But first, a little preamble so that you, as a Christian, may understand this perspective better.

We Christians believe that God’s revelation is contained in our Bible. That has been and will always be an uncompromising non-negotiating position for us. Muslims believe that God’s revelation is contained in the Qur’an, and that has been and will always be an uncompromising non-negotiating position for them.

Fortunately, a scientific comparative analysis of both books can be made to see whether there is harmony between the teachings of both books. A comprehensive study has been undertaken, assuming that both books are entirely correct. The study found that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an, and that harmony was reached without damaging the integrity or compromising the teachings of any verse in the Bible or Qur’an.

The study is called Brothers Kept Apart and you are urged to read it. I believe that the only rational conclusion anyone can come to after reading the book, is that Christians and Muslims are brother who have been needlessly kept apart for that past 1,300 years.

Now to your questions.

1 Is the Bible considered true in your religion, if so why do you contradict Jesus' claim to be the son of God which is the base of Christianity.

The Qur’an instructs Muslims to believe the books sent before. It should be noted that the Bible was compiled as a single document 200 years before Mohammed, and the Gospel was available in Arabic centuries before Mohammed.

The concept of Son of God described in the Bible is not the same concept in the Qur’an; hence there is no contradiction. Mohammed was preaching a departure from the polytheistic religions of the region to the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He found the Greek and Roman religious ideas of gods compounding through sexual intercourse repulsive. Since you have not read the book, you may not be aware that the concept of the trinity taught to Mohammed was of father, mother and son. Even Christians find this concept offensive.

2 Was Mohammad originally a Christian before he received his prophetic revelation and if he wasn't than why did he base so much of the Koran off the Bible .

The evidence is that he belonged to a tribe of decedents of Ishmael, the first born son of Abraham, whom God declared that He would make a great nation. God also made this promise to Abraham’s younger son, Isaac. God sent prophets to the Israelites when they strayed from fulfilling their purpose as recorded in the Bible. Therefore, it is not inconceivable that God would send a prophet to the Ishmaelites if they too strayed.

By the time of Mohamed, the Ishmaelites had forsaken the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and turned to polytheism. Mohammed called the people back to a relationship with the one God of their forbearers. While his first wife was alive, his message was very similar to that of Jesus. Also, if God is the source of the revelation, then we should expect harmony.

3 Finally what part of the Koran disagrees with the bible and if no part disagrees and it is basically a repeat of the what the bible says, than why did a religion begin from it.

As explained in the preamble, the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an are in harmony. A new religion started because at the time, our Christian religion had developed traditions that were not supported by the Bible. There are over 20,000 early church manuscripts that describe the development of these traditions. It should be noted that the Bible remained unchanged, but Christian tradition changed.

All of the evidence is available in Brothers Kept Apart, which is the culmination of 30 years of research.

Regards,
Grenville

[Pygoscelis]

For years now I have had a bible and a quran sitting on a shelf together side by side in my living room. I am waiting for them to spontaneously combust. Then maybe I'll have to reconsider being an atheist. :D

[Walter]

For years now I have had a bible and a quran sitting on a shelf together side by side in my living room. I am waiting for them to spontaneously combust. Then maybe I'll have to reconsider being an atheist. :D

Hi Pygoscelis:

They will never combust because they are generally in harmony. It is the adherents of each tradition who be in conflict so long as they are focused on defending their traditions rather than seeking for the Truth.

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

And here I was thinking that the Quran was the final revelation. And that Allah and the Prophet pbuh described Christianity and its tenets as a perversion of monotheism.

"This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor towards you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”(Al-Ma’idah 5:3)

With regards to religion, there is nothing a Muslim can learn from a Christian that Islam doesn't already teach or correct.

[Walter]

Hi AKK:

Let us examine the verse that you provided.

This day

That is very specific.

I have perfected your religion for you,

That is very specific to Mohammed.

completed My favor towards you,

That is also very specific to Mohammed.

and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

Again, very specific to Mohammed.

From this, your interpretation is:

“Quran was the final revelation. And that Allah and the Prophet pbuh described Christianity and its tenets as a perversion of monotheism.”

It is these types of Islamic traditional interpretations that have kept Christians and Muslims apart for the past 1,300 years.

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi AKK:

Let us examine the verse that you provided.

This day

That is very specific.

I have perfected your religion for you,

That is very specific to Mohammed.

completed My favor towards you,

That is also very specific to Mohammed.

and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

Again, very specific to Mohammed.

From this, your interpretation is:

“Quran was the final revelation. And that Allah and the Prophet pbuh described Christianity and its tenets as a perversion of monotheism.”

It is these type of Islamic traditional interpretations that have kept Christians and Muslims apart for the past 1,300 years.

Peace Grenville,

For your explanation to be true it would mean that Prophet Muhammad pbuh was only a messenger to the arabs.

Your attempts at dismissing the fundamental tenets of Islam have reached a low point in tenuousness.

1. That Islam was reveled for all of mankind is unanimously accepted by all Muslims.

2. If It was revealed to only the arabs, then how come Allah addresses MANKIND and NEVER the arabs specifically with regards to following Islam?

3. Your views have no basis in the Quran, the hadith, or any slight shed of Islamic proof. You interpret based on your own opinions and desires.

I challenge you to show that Muhammad was a messenger to only the arabs because it is a great thing you're claiming here.

Oh btw, some of the companions of the Prophet were non-arab migrants from places like India who were instructed to travel back and spread Islam. So please... Islam is for all mankind, and is the only acceptable thing for Allah, since it was the only thing ever given by him.

It your type of interpretation...nay you don't even use the sources so how can you interpret... it is your opinions that deter people from the ultimate truth of Allah

Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all (Quran 7:158)

"And We have sent you (O Muhammad) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)." (Al Anbia’:107)

“And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind, but most of men know not.” (Saba’:28)

[Walter]

Hi AKK:

You have simply misunderstood the post. You quoted a verse that was specific to Mohammed and gave it a shocking interpretation that was completely unsupported by the verse. I merely explained that it was this type of behavior that has kept Christians and Muslims apart for the past 1,300 years. What behavior? The Christian and Muslim behavior of promoting their religious traditions that are unsupported by their principal texts.

Your Islamic traditional teaching that “Quran was the final revelation. And that Allah and the Prophet pbuh described Christianity and its tenets as a perversion of monotheism.” cannot be supported by any interpretation of the verse that you quoted unless you severely damage the verse’ integrity.

Was Mohammed’s message of forsaking idols and submitting to the One and Only God, who is identified as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Of course this message is for all of mankind. But let us try to separate the truth of the Qur’an from the Islamic traditions that are not supported by the Qur’an and which constitute a barrier to other persons who also submit to this God.

Regards.

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi AKK:

You have simply misunderstood the post. You quoted a verse that was specific to Mohammed and gave it a shocking interpretation that was completely unsupported by the verse. I merely explained that it was this type of behavior that has kept Christians and Muslims apart for the past 1,300 years. What behavior? The Christian and Muslim behavior of promoting their religious traditions that are unsupported by their principal texts.

Your Islamic traditional teaching that “Quran was the final revelation. And that Allah and the Prophet pbuh described Christianity and its tenets as a perversion of monotheism.” cannot be supported by any interpretation of the verse that you quoted unless you severely damage the verse’ integrity.

Was Mohammed’s message of forsaking idols and submitting to the One and Only God, who is identified as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Of course this message is for all of mankind. But let us try to separate the truth of the Qur’an from the Islamic traditions that are not supported by the Qur’an and which constitute a barrier to other persons who also submit to this God.

Regards.

Grenville, again you have responded by stating jsut your opinions and asserting that what you call "the traditional" view of Islam is wrong.

Please address my points and the verses I quoted and maybe this will go somewhere. Your opinions on what Islam is supposed to be are irrelevant unless you support them with proof.

So Grenville bring your proof and I'll bring mine and may Allah forgive the one who is distorting Islam here.

[Walter]

OK AKK:

I thought that we had dealt with these things already. There are Islamic traditions that not supported by the Qur'an. However, once they do not contradict the Qur'an or conflict with other established information, then we do not have a problem. The same is true for Christian traditions.

There are Islamic traditions that are not supported by the Qur'an but conflict with established information. This is a problem. The Islamic traditions that actually contradict the Qur'an are an even bigger problem.

The Islamic tradition that the Bible has been corrupted is not supported by the Qur'an and conflicts with established information. Further, it also appears to conflict with the Qur'an.

I have already sufficient proof on a previous thread. If you wish, I can try to ressurect that thread, or you can simply provide explicit and clear evidence from the Qur'an stating that the Bible or any bok contained in the Bible was corrupted.

Regards.

[Imam]

Hi Everyone:


I have examined the author’s claims and have found that even the most contentious verses in the Qur’an can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the Bible, the rest of the Qur’an, and the historical record.

Greetings,


Let's reset the subject ........

The Book is available online partly ,..but let me tell you what I guessed to be the basic points of the book:


1-The God of the New Testament is the same God of the Quran.

2-Mohamed(pbuh) is a prophet for Arabs only.

3-The bible and Quran teachings about the nature of Jesus are the same.

4- The Quran only criticizing unorthodox trinity (father,mother,son).

5-Both the Bible and Quran teach that Jesus Got crucified.

6-Both the Bible and Quran teach that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

7-The Bible and the Quran teach the same regarding salvation.

8-Both The bible and Quran view Jesus as the promised Jewish MEssiah.
9- the Bible has been corrupted is not supported by the Qur'an .



Is that true, my guessing?

If so ,I would say I disagree with such views and would like to begin refuting the lines point by point and in details......

I just need your comment, Did I get the summary of the book right?


peace

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

Your guesses are not entirely correct. Please visit your local library, examine the evidence provided, and then let us discuss where we disagree in order that we may arrive at the truth. If it will take more than US$6 to do that, then you can simply download the e-book.

Regards,
Grenville

[Yanal]

If you say the Quran and Bible are incompatiable how can there be harmony between the two? Incompatiable means :two things that don't go together.

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi Imam:

Your guesses are not entirely correct. Please visit your local library, examine the evidence provided, and then let us discuss where we disagree in order that we may arrive at the truth. If it will take more than US$6 to do that, then you can simply download the e-book.

Regards,
Grenville

Grenville, help us out and give the evidence you have in favor of your views and please summarize them so we can go at this again.

[Walter]

Hi Yanal:

You wrote
"If you say the Quran and Bible are incompatiable how can there be harmony between the two? Incompatiable means :two things that don't go together."

Please note that this is incorrect. There is harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an but disharmony between Christian and Islamic religious tradition. If you really want to understand the principal reasons for the incompatibility, then please read the Audacity of Hope article at BrothersKeptApart.com

Ok AKK:

Before we start, please let me know if you agree with the Audacity of Hope article referred to above. It is the audacity of hoping that there can be any reconciliation between these brothers who have been kept apart by their respective religious leaders for the past 1,300 years or so.

As an aside, the book should be in 5,000 libraries world wide. If it is not in your local one, then please provide a link and I will ensure that they also receive a copy.

Regards,
Grenville

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Greville NO I DONT AGREE WITH ARTICLE

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Grenville
Christians and Muslims claim to serve the same God.No we Serve God only you serve His messanger
Can these brothers, who have been kept apart for far too long, be reconciled before that time? no we are not brothers we are All sons of Adam and creations of God but Christians left the brotherhood once they started worshiping Jesus pbuh
The message was that the Ishmaelites should reject their idols and submit to the One God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who was the God of the Jews and the Christians. DONT FORGET THE GOD OF MOSES AND JESUS TOO THE SAME GOD ALL PROPHETS WORSHIPED and to all mankind not only Ishmaelites
return to the religion of Abraham, and worship the One God, Yes to return to the true religion of God
who is identified as the one God of Abraham, the Jews and the Christians; NO Christians worship Jesus and not only God
believe God’s revelation sent to the Old Testament prophets, and recorded in the Gospel; And sent to the Prophet Jesus the Gospel btw The revealed books from Allah are: the Torah (Tawrah), the Psalms (Zabur), the Gospel (Injeel) and the Qur’an. The Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)1, as the final book of Guidance. Among all these books, it is only the Qur’an that remains unchanged, in its original revealed form.
believe in the Messiah Jesus, who was born of the virgin Mary; YES AND Believe in that he was a Prophet/Messanger of God and only a Prophet/Messanger not divine nor is he God
believe that there is a resurrection and a judgment where everyone’s eternal future would be determined; Yes God well bring us back to be Judge not Jesus, God will
believe that the Holy Sprit was sent to strengthen and guide believers; Holy spirit being who God? NO NO AND NO again Ruh-ul-Qudus [Gabriel] so if he is saying the Holy spirit is God NO OUR PROPHET DIDNT TEACH THAT
reject the ways of satan; and YES
avoid the penalty of eternal hell fire. YES
:) PS
Since the creation of the first human, Allah has revealed His guidance to mankind by sending prophets, who all called to the belief of One God. The prophets who received books from Allah are called messengers. Whenever the teachings of a prophet were distorted by people Allah sent another prophet to bring human beings back to the Straight Path. The chain of Risalah began with Adam, included Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Lot, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and Jesus, and ended with Muhammad (peace be upon them all), as the final messenger of Allah to all of mankind.
SO Islam was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form
Allah is the Creator of all that's is in the heavens and the earth. Allah is the True and only Creator, and only He deserves to be worshipped. nothing else is worthy of worship;Not A PROPHET(i.g Jesus,Muhammad peace be upon them), not stones, statues, crosses, the sun , the moon, star, temples, animals, saints, priest, movie stars, football stars, or religious people. All of those are created beings and worshiping them is associate partners with Allah and this is the only sin which wont be forgiven on the day of judgment and will condemn a man or women to hell forever.

[Walter]

Dear Umar:

After reading the reasons why you claim to have disagreed with the article, I can only conclude that you really do not disagree with the article at all. You are simply arguing with yourself. Your response is typical of why Christians and Muslims remain kept apart.

Can you please just take a look at the evidence which shows that both the Bible and the Qur'an are correct?

Regards,
Grenville

[AntiKarateKid]

Dear Umar:

After reading the reasons why you claim to have disagreed with the article, I can only conclude that you really do not disagree with the article at all. You are simply arguing with yourself. Your response is typical of why Christians and Muslims remain kept apart.

Can you please just take a look at the evidence which shows that both the Bible and the Qur'an are correct?

Regards,
Grenville

Grenville, do me a big favor plz and make a list of the most compelling reasons of why you think you are correct.

We can go on from your points then. Unless of course, you feel that your points are not strong enough to withstand a check.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Dear Umar:

After reading the reasons why you claim to have disagreed with the article, I can only conclude that you really do not disagree with the article at all.

NO NO I really really disagree with it be sure of that i disagree 100% no ifs ands or buts :)

You are simply arguing with yourself. Your response is typical of why Christians and Muslims remain kept apart.

WE are apart because Christians follow manmade religion not the religion of GOD

Can you please just take a look at the evidence which shows that both the Bible and the Qur'an are correct?
Regards,
Grenville

they cant be both correct for one says worship Jesus(Bible) other says GOD (Quran) dont matter how you look at it as Jesus being God or All 3 are one it dont matter it is wrong and NOT IN QURAN OR THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM one book has 100s and 100s of contradictions (Bible) OTHER has 0 contradiction (Quran) Is God perfect then his words should be as well so in short the whole bible is not worth one verse in the Quran. one is the words of Matthew luke john job etc the (bible) the other is the word OF GOD (Quran) so dont misunderstand me Christians AND Muslims are not brothers are not togeather cant be wont be unless the Christians submit to God none have the right to be Worshiped but God the one and Only no his Prophets (i.g. Jesus )
Regards
ME

[Walter]

Hi AKK:

OK, I will do so. However, as previously mentioned, can you please let me know if you agree with the Audacity of Hope article referred to previously.

Please note that we will be examining the Bible and the Qur'an, not Islam and Christianity. Therefore, there is no need to follow Umar down that path to conflict.

Regards,
Grenville

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Please note that we will be examining the Bible and the Qur'an, not Islam and Christianity. Therefore, there is no need to follow Umar down that path to conflict.

Regards,
Grenville

:) hey i dont mind helping you examining the Quran with you helping you better understand it the Bible you can leave at home we wont need it we look at fact and truth

[Imam]

Hi AKK:

OK, I will do so. However, as previously mentioned, can you please let me know if you agree with the Audacity of Hope

Regards,
Grenville

Greetings,

some point of the-audacity-of-hope to agree with and others to disagree

The first point of disagreement is:

Both of these groups believe that they will stand before the God of Abraham at the end of the age.

Indeed Muslims believe that they will stand before the God of Abraham at the end of the age, If Jesus is God according to Christians ,then Jesus is God of Abraham ,isn't it?
In the Quran Jesus neither the God of Abraham nor anyone else...

how would you harmonize that?

peace

[Walter]

Dear Imam:

Let us forget about Islamic and Christian tradition for a moment and simply concentrate on the teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an. The Bible identifies God as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Qur’an identifies God as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Based on this evidence, can we not assume, for the moment, that so far, there appears to be harmony? Perhaps we will come across some verses that may challenge the present harmony, but can we at least agree that so far, we have harmony?

Regards,
Grenville

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Dear Imam:

Let us forget about Islamic and Christian tradition for a moment and simply concentrate on the teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an. The Bible identifies God as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Qur’an identifies God as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The Quran identifies God as the God of Adam, included Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Lot, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and Jesus, and ended with Muhammad (peace be upon them all) Jesus as well GOD is the God of Jeses to

Based on this evidence, can we not assume, for the moment, that so far, there appears to be harmony?

If you agree with that which was stated above yes if not no

Perhaps we will come across some verses that may challenge the present harmony, but can we at least agree that so far, we have harmony?

Regards,
Grenville

the answer is still no:)

[Walter]

Good Grief Umar.

Is there no one in this forum willing to give this thing a try? Must everyone be so contentious?

Regards,
Grenville

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Good Grief Umar.

Is there no one in this forum willing to give this thing a try? Must everyone be so contentious?

Regards,
Grenville

Well see no matter what way you look at it as long as you say Jesus is God there cant be harmony at all that goes against the main belief in islam which is Tawheed the oneness of our Lord
this explains God
قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ - اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ -

لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌQuran 112 1-4
(1. Say: "He is Allah") (2. "One".) (3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten".) (4. "And there is non comparable to Him.'')" Quran 112 1 - 4

الصَّمَدُ (As-Samad) is One Who does not give birth, nor was He born, because there is nothing that is born except that it will die, and there is nothing that dies except that it leaves behind inheritance, and indeed Allah does not die and He does not leave behind any inheritance.
Oneness Of GOD (Tawhid)

This is the most important Islamic belief. It implies that everything in existence originates from the one and only Creator, who is also the Sustainer and the sole Source of Guidance. This belief should govern all aspects of human life. Recognition of this fundamental truth results in a unified view of existence that rejects any divisions of life into the religious and the secular. Allah is the sole source of Power and Authority and therefore entitled to worship and obedience from mankind. There is no scope for any partnership with the Creator. Tawhid teaches man that Allah is not born, nor is anyone born of Him. He has no son or daughter. Human beings, like the rest of creation, are His subjects.

[AntiKarateKid]

Good Grief Umar.

Is there no one in this forum willing to give this thing a try? Must everyone be so contentious?

Regards,
Grenville

You must understand. You are telling us that much of what we believe Islam to be is misguided and that the Quran is in harmony with the Bible.

Muslims have strong reactions to this. Especially since you haven't provided any verses or concrete reasons other than rhetoric.

If you wish to sway us, please post the writer's most convincing arguments so we can either follow it or reject it based on it's merits.

[BlackMamba]

5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

5:72 They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

5:73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Someone has probably already posted these ayats from the Holy Quran, but they pretty much show that Islam is totally against the idea of trinity/shirk. And christians believe in that trinity.
and
3:19 The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

[malayloveislam]

I don't know whether this is related to the topic, but I had noticed that there are many Qul words in Holy Quran. Could anyone care to tell me, why is that always Qul (say), being included in the Ayats? Say in Surah Al-Ikhlas, Surah Al-Falaq, and Surah An-Naas? Is there any specific intention by the person who "write" this book? Thank you in advance.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

I don't know whether this is related to the topic, but I had noticed that there are many Qul words in Holy Quran. Could anyone care to tell me, why is that always Qul (say), being included in the Ayats? Say in Surah Al-Ikhlas, Surah Al-Falaq, and Surah An-Naas? Is there any specific intention by the person who "write" this book? Thank you in advance.

Allah Knows Best akhi

[جوري]

3. Passages With “Qul”
More than 200 passages in the Qur’an open with the word “qul” (say), which is an instruction to the Prophet Muhammad to address the words following this introduction to his audience in a particular situation, such as in reply to a question that has been raised, or as an assertion of a matter of belief, or announcement of a legal ruling.
Examples of this follow:

[Say: Nothing will happen to us except what God has decreed for us: He is our Patron.] (At-Tawbah 9:51)
[Say: O People of the Scripture! Do ye blame us for aught else than that we believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you are evil-livers?] (Al-Ma’idah 5:59)
[They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: (Such) spoils are at the disposal of God and the Messenger: so fear God and adjust the matter of your difference: obey God and His Messenger, if ye do believe.] (Al-Anfal 8:1)

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...ah%2FLSELayout

[جوري]

Well see no matter what way you look at it as long as you say Jesus is God there cant be harmony at all that goes against the main belief in islam which is Tawheed the oneness of our Lord
this explains God
قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ - اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ -

لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌQuran 112 1-4
(1. Say: "He is Allah") (2. "One".) (3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten".) (4. "And there is non comparable to Him.'')" Quran 112 1 - 4

الصَّمَدُ (As-Samad) is One Who does not give birth, nor was He born, because there is nothing that is born except that it will die, and there is nothing that dies except that it leaves behind inheritance, and indeed Allah does not die and He does not leave behind any inheritance.
Oneness Of GOD (Tawhid)

This is the most important Islamic belief. It implies that everything in existence originates from the one and only Creator, who is also the Sustainer and the sole Source of Guidance. This belief should govern all aspects of human life. Recognition of this fundamental truth results in a unified view of existence that rejects any divisions of life into the religious and the secular. Allah is the sole source of Power and Authority and therefore entitled to worship and obedience from mankind. There is no scope for any partnership with the Creator. Tawhid teaches man that Allah is not born, nor is anyone born of Him. He has no son or daughter. Human beings, like the rest of creation, are His subjects.

:sl:
notice how the verse states. 'qul hwa Allah Ahad' not 'qul hwa Allah wahid'-- at first glance it might just appear, God is one, but Ahad, actually means 'indivisible' -- it is a very decisive verse, I doubt many people pay attention to it.. people think wahid and Ahad are interchangeable.. they are in fact not-- to me that ends all alleged harmony between the Quran and the bible, especially for those who allege the Quran copies from the bible..


and Allah swt knows best

:w:

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all

Christians cannot live in harmony with other Christians, look at all our denominations, Muslims cannot live in harmony, look at their differences.

Yet we are all created by the same God, we should at least love each other despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[malayloveislam]

Thank you, I really appreciate answers from sister and brother. Actually I had came across bible passages saying that God will kill that person (assigned messenger) who speak his own word and hiding His revelation. Do you think prophet Muhammad (SAW) dare doing such thing if being threatened like that by the Supreme Power? Even we as civilians too will be more than fear hearing that awful threat! I am sorry I can't remember the passage, I think from OT if I am not mistaken. If any brother and sister have it please kindly put it here for me and other to see it ourselves. Thank you and peace.

[Grace Seeker]

Why don't you read the Quran (preferably tafsirs to understand the context of verses) and Hadith before commenting on what Islam is supposed to mean?

Tafsirs are the commentary that is often contained within the text of the Qu'ran [but are printed within brackets like this], is that correct?

[malayloveislam]

Dear Eric H,

Indeed we respect people of different faith. Western people and non-Muslims actually do not understand it and through imperialism had made everybody looking down on each other. In my country, Muslim had been respecting non-Muslim more than they respect each other. Even after that non-Muslim immigrants had made many claimants which I think would never been tolerated by Christian country like Italy or Spain although they lived in Muslim administrated country. Non-Muslim immigrants build temples, churches, etc freely in our country and without any permit. Muslim prayer room being closed and build underground in shopping complexes because respecting non-Muslim in my country.

[Imam]

Dear Imam:

Let us forget about Islamic and Christian tradition for a moment and simply concentrate on the teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an.

Dear,Greenville

I promise you I will lay all the traditions aside and concentrate on the teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an, just give me a hand and refer to the proof text within both the Bible and the Quran.

The Bible identifies God as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Qur’an identifies God as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Does the New Testament identifies Jesus as as the God worshiped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. ?

Does the Quran identifies Jesus as as the God worshiped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. ?


IF we claim for a harmony then the answer ,for both the questions ,has to be either Yes(and proof text), or No(and proof text) ..

In other word The Christian believe of Jesus as God is Biblical or christian traditions?
The Muslim believe that Jesus isn't God Quranic or muslim traditions?

I hope your next post to be with documentations not notifications otherwise I will be disappointed.

peace

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Greetings and peace be with you all

Christians cannot live in harmony with other Christians, look at all our denominations, Muslims cannot live in harmony, look at their differences.

Yet we are all created by the same God, we should at least love each other despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

:) How can i love those who make Allah (God) somthing He is not people who try to belittle Allah And about friends Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "A person is likely to follow the faith of his friend, so look whom you befriend" (Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi)
Respect yes i respect you as a person and hope you will be guided and see the truth like our respect your way of life ( Christian) i cant like it nor respect it but you are still alive there is a chance you see the truth so pray to God and ask for guidance

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Umar^111;

respect your way of life ( Christian) i cant like it nor respect it but you are still alive there is a chance you see the truth so pray to God and ask for guidance

I know you have my best intentions at heart, but I am being drawn towards greater interfaith friendship and understanding, because we are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers.

I have a great respect for Islam, but it does not speak to me with the power that Christianity has. God is answering prayers in my life through Jesus in ways that convince me Christianity is the truth.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[أبو سليمان عمر]

see if you read what you wrote Eric you said God is answering prayers in my life through Jesus right there do you see the problem you are makeing 2 Gods or if not that a mediator to get to God which one?

[أبو سليمان عمر]

See in islam we deal start with God no in between just me and My Lord Allah not Muhammad peace be upon him not the pope preist imam or shaekh . i pray to God none other and to give credit to someone else is not right in your case Jesus

[Stranger_Suhaib]

Other studies recently concluded that when christianity was introduced into roman polytheism, they were slowly integrated into one another, so that christianity also became polytheistic in nature. Hence the 3 in 1 god, and the vengeful god, and all the immorality and ludity in the bible, both by god himself and his apostles (wal'iyaadu billah). Much like roman/greek mythology of those so called gods' immorality and ludity and veangefulness.

So the bible and the quran are in harmony like a liar is in harmony with the honest. Like a roach is in harmony with a cat. And It goes on...

[Pygoscelis]

I have been conducting an experiment over the past decade. I have a Bible and a Quran side by side on a shelf in my living room. I am waiting for them to spontaneously combust. But thus far nothing has happened.

Thus I think I have proven that the Bible and the Quran can co-exist in perfect harmony.

[Stranger_Suhaib]

^^ You don't seem to get the concept of "harmony", its different than "coexisting".

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Umar^111;

if you read what you wrote Eric you said God is answering prayers in my life through Jesus

I can only say that I believe in the power of Jesus answering my prayers, beyond that I have no understanding. Here is a passage from John 14.

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[doorster]

no doubt He will, one day, let us all know about things on which we differ, perhaps we could put the hatred and lust to kill one another aside until then and instead start competing in doing good deeds which benefit the the needy from amongst us?

hm...! any takers???

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Doorster i had writing a long reply but maybe i misunderstood you so first can you explaine what you mean

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you doorster;

no doubt He will, one day, let us all know about things on which we differ, perhaps we could put the hatred and lust to kill one another aside until then and instead start competing in doing good deeds which benefit the the needy from amongst us?

Amen, Amen, and when we share in doing good deeds, we will see our differences melt away.

Blessings and peace be with you

Eric

[Imam]

Greetings and peace be with you doorster;


Amen, Amen, and when we share in doing good deeds, we will see our differences melt away.

Blessings and peace be with you

Eric

Greetings'

I don't believe in a total harmony between the bible and the Quran but
I can't help but to agree with you both in such point

(start competing in doing good deeds which benefit the the needy from amongst us) :thumbs_up
peace

[أبو سليمان عمر]

the differences will never melt away unless we follow truth (islam)

[AntiKarateKid]

the differences will never melt away unless we follow truth (islam)

I agree. One must not forget the object of our good deeds. God. But the Christian's assert a trinity, Muslims a unity.

Though we can compete in deeds that are obviously good, such as charity. What about ones such as discouraging idol worship or associating partners with God? What about which book we are even to draw our critereon for what exactly consititues a good deed?

Then are we still in harmony?

[Imam]

What about ones such as discouraging idol worship or associating partners with God? What about which book we are even to draw our critereon for what exactly consititues a good deed?

Then are we still in harmony?

peace

You are right, wrong if we hope for total harmony in all aspects but at least in the economical and charity aspect,and the burden now is on the Christian shoulder ,as they are responsible for the increasing amount of the needy in the world ,by following the greedy ideology of Capitalism .........
well lots to say regarding what Christians should do to coexist peacefully with Muslims and all humans too........... but I would like to concentrate on Grenville's work and share some academic discussion with him and all friends here....

still waiting for his reply..


peace

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

OK, let us try this again. The aim is to start where we have agreement and then try to identify the point of divergence. Let us, for the time being, forget our Christian and Islamic traditions, which we are all aware are completely incompatible. Let us simply examine evidence in the Qur'an and the Bible without contaminating its interpretation with traditional beliefs.

Both the Bible and the Qur’an identify their God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Can we at least agree on this?

Bible: Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’ (Exodus 3:15)

Qur’an: We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il [Ishmael], Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. (4:163)

Regards,
Grenville

[أبو سليمان عمر]

LOL ok listen here pls yes they Both talk about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but Quran also talks about you God as a Prophet see Qur’an: We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il [Ishmael], Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. (4:163)) so keep that in mind the whole time Jesus is not God here he is a Prophet like all the others mentioned here so don't forget.
so we agree on Prophets up to Moses pbuh what next

[GreyKode]

We also do not agree on a lot of stories in the bible, which are anthromorphic and not befitting for ALLAH(swt). This I believe is one of the biggest points of divergence that you are underestimating.

[BlackMamba]

O followers of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with the falsehood and hide the truth while you know?(3:71)

[Walter]

OK Imam:

It seems that regardless of how I am trying to approach this exercise, most persons in this forum keep pointing to the proverbial “800 pound gorilla in the room.” Let us then address this issue first, because it seems that until we do, we are going nowhere.

The study found that there is harmony between the teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an on Jesus. Both the Bible and the Qur’an describe Jesus as:
• a Servant and Prophet of God; (Bible: Matthew 12:15–18, 13:57/ Qur’an: 19:30, 34)
• born of the virgin Mary; (Luke 1:30–35/3:45–47)
• led by the Holy Spirit; (Luke 4:18–19/2:87)
• a Preacher of the Gospel; (Mark 1:14–15/5:46)
• a Healer who healed the sick and raised the dead; (Matthew 4:23, John 12:1/ 5:110) and
• the Christ or Messiah. (John 4:25–26/3:45)

Let us not argue about what Christian or Islamic religious traditions describe these terms to mean. Remember, we are simply looking at evidence provided by the Bible and the Qur’an only.

Before I go much further, are we in agreement so far?

Regards,
Grenville

[أبو سليمان عمر]

ok but the Holy spirit being Rûh-ul-Qudus in other words Jibreel the Angel quran 2 87.( And indeed, We gave Mûsa (Moses) the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) <><>]. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.) NOT A HOLY GHOST

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Imam;

(start competing in doing good deeds which benefit the the needy from amongst us)
peace

A few centuries ago were I live Christians were killing other Christians, supposedly because the other lot were corrupting the truth and did not believe in the right way.

Now I find it a time of great joy when I can work and pray with these ‘opposing Christians from other denominations’ in doing good deeds for the troubled people in our area. We also raise money together for Christian Aid which is a charity that gives to communities regardless of faith.

Barriers can be broken down, bridges can be built, it is a lack of love for one another that separates us Christians. It is also a lack of love for one another that separates inter faith cooperation.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Walter]

Dear Umar:

The Qur’an clearly identifies Gabriel in 2:97-98, and 66:4, in contrast to the Holy Spirit in 2:87, 2:253, 5:110, and 16:102. We should not mix them up. Therefore, let us put aside Islamic religious tradition for a moment and limit our discussion to what is explicitly stated in the Qur’an.

Are we in agreement? Can we proceed?

Regards,
Grenville

[GreyKode]

Dear Umar:

The Qur’an clearly identifies Gabriel in 2:97-98, and 66:4, in contrast to the Holy Spirit in 2:87, 2:253, 5:110, and 16:102. We should not mix them up. Therefore, let us put aside Islamic religious tradition for a moment and limit our discussion to what is explicitly stated in the Qur’an.

Are we in agreement? Can we proceed?

Regards,
Grenville

But the ayah 16:102 clearly indicates that the holy spirit "Al ruh al Qudus" is angel Jibreel(as).

[Walter]

Dear Grey Kode:

You are making the very great assumption that Mohammed ONLY received revelation from Gabriel. Can you provide any evidence to support your assertion? If you cannot, then it is simply Islamic religious tradition that is unsupported by the Qur’an, which we had already agreed to put aside for the time being.

Regards,
Grenville

[GreyKode]

You are making the very great assumption that Mohammed ONLY received revelation from Gabriel

Not from Gabriel(as), but through Gabriel(as).
Anyway, using the same logic I want you to explain ONLY from the words of the bible what the Holy spirit is.

[Walter]

Hi Grey Kode:

Let us not run ahead of ourselves. I promise you that we will discuss the Holy Spirit; however, let us first discuss Jesus. So, can we assume that we have harmony thus far and can therefore proceed a bit further?

Regards,
Grenville

[Stranger_Suhaib]

These people are not here to learn. Only to attack the religion, as you can tell by their frustration and annoyance. They bring up ayats in the quran, not to learn from it, but they feel its the best avenue to attack islam and try and prove their polytheism is the answer. So brother Umar i wouldn't waste your time with this.

[Walter]

Dear Stranger:

If you are including me in “these people” then you are completely wrong. I have repeatedly stated that I have assumed the Qur’an to be correct. However, I have made the same assumption about the Bible and found harmony between their principal teachings. Why are you so afraid of a discussion to examine this?

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

Grenville with all due respect, what is to be gained from this? it seems an exercise in futility.. Yes there are very superficial similarities between the Quran and what preceded it.. but that quickly dissolves since the core principles are completely at odds with each other..
There is no Judeo-Christian, since the Jews don't accept the tenets of Christianity and there is no Christiano-Islamic, since Muslims don't accept the core tenets of Christianity.. Christianity seems rather monolithic..

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your effort to abridge gaps.. but that seems like something that should be directed toward the Christian community, not the Muslim one.. we don't have beef with other religions.. Christianity however in order to assert itself needs to attack Islam and constantly.. or look for things that simply aren't there..

if you believe the Quran to be correct then why aren't you Muslim?

all the best

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Hi Grey Kode:

Let us not run ahead of ourselves. I promise you that we will discuss the Holy Spirit; however, let us first discuss Jesus. So, can we assume that we have harmony thus far and can therefore proceed a bit further?

Regards,
Grenville

ok lets talk about Jesus who is Jesus?
did he die?

[Grace Seeker]

ok lets talk about Jesus who is Jesus?
did he die?

Physically, yes. Spiritually, no.


Though, since he came back to life again, some might argue that he only appeared to die for he is still alive today. I wonder if that might be what 4:157 is trying to say: "And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain."? I know that all of the Islamic scholars suggest that this means that Jesus was never even put on a cross, but why is that the way this passage is read? Doesn't it also fit that it is saying that while it looked to those who saw Jesus on the cross that he had died, the reality is that he didn't, that it only appeared that way, for he still is alive today?

Yes, death and the devil thought they had won on that day, certainly it appeared that way to them. But the truth is that death had not defeated Jesus. Rather, Jesus was about to show that he had power even over death. It seems to me that this sort of understanding of the passage is entirely consistent with what is actually on the page of the Qur'an, even if it doesn't fit the last 1200 years of Islamic theology.

Notice, I am not saying that the Qur'an is wrong. Only that the interpretation that humans have made from it does not do justice to what the Qur'an actually says. Yet, I also recognize that I am reading it in English and not Arabic. I can understand if you say that the Arabic does not allow for my proposal. But just reading the English, I have always wondered why Muslims reject the crucifixion based on this passage. I don't see it say that it didn't happen, only that it didn't have the results that those observing thought it did.

[Imam]

Thank you Grace-seeker finally I get a direct verse for discussion :)

I wonder if that might be what 4:157 is trying to say: "And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain."?

I know that all of the Islamic scholars suggest that this means that Jesus was never even put on a cross, but why is that the way this passage is read?

because it says what it means and means what it says (Jesus never ever been put on a cross)... let alone be killed.

Yes, death and the devil thought they had won on that day

If he died even for five minutes then death had won on that day.

But the truth is that death had not defeated Jesus.

Which Jesus ?
If the physical ,then death had defeated him that day he died on the cross.

If the spiritual ,death never defeated the spiritual Jesus neither any other spiritual being.

Notice, I am not saying that the Qur'an is wrong.

I'm sure I understand your post ... you try to render the meaning of the verse as:

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they killed his spirit not nor crucified his spirit .

If that is the message of the verse then ,we already knew that none ever could crucify nor kill a spirit either Jesus or anyone else.


What if the Quran says: (They killed him and crucified him)

details in next posts inshallah.

peace

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

You asked two questions. One of which we had already introduced. First, you asked “Who is Jesus?”

I had already noted that both the Bible and the Qur’an explicitly teach that Jesus is:
• a Servant and Prophet of God; (Bible: Matthew 12:15–18, 13:57/ Qur’an: 19:30, 34)
• born of the virgin Mary; (Luke 1:30–35/3:45–47)
• led by the Holy Spirit; (Luke 4:18–19/2:87)
• a Preacher of the Gospel; (Mark 1:14–15/5:46)
• a Healer who healed the sick and raised the dead; (Matthew 4:23, John 12:1/ 5:110) and
• the Christ or Messiah. (John 4:25–26/3:45)

You will note that I have provided evidence from the Gospel and the Qur’an only.

Then you asked whether Jesus died? I can give you the Islamic or Christian religious traditional answer and I can guarantee you that they will never be reconciled. Therefore, let us simply provide the information from the Bible and the Qur’an as before.

The Bible teaches that Jesus died (John 19:33), and was raised from the dead (John 21:14). The Qur’an also teaches that Jesus died and was raised from the dead.

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)

The only two groups that dispute this statement are those who wish to defend, not the truth in the Bible or the Qur’an, but Jewish and Islamic religious traditions.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Dear Gossamer:

We have one life to live. Therefore, we should be actively seeking more of the Truth. Jesus spoke the truth of reconciling persons to God and each-other, and He was persecuted for this message. Mohammed came preaching a similar message of being reconciled to God and each other, and he was also persecuted.

You stated “Yes there are very superficial similarities between the Quran and what preceded it.. but that quickly dissolves since the core principles are completely at odds with each other”

Dear Gossamer, this is simply incorrect. The core principles are in harmony. Have you not read the article that I referred you to titled The Audacity of Hope? It is the audacity of hoping that Christians will realise the reconciliation taught by Jesus, and Muslims will realize the reconciliation taught by Mohammed.

Gossamer, please follow me for a brief moment. The available evidence supports the views that:

1. Mohammed was a prophet sent by the God of Abraham with a message of reconciliation between God and man (man to include male and female) and between man and man.

2. Mohammed was sent to execute God’s judgement on the surrounding nations, and he provided instructions to his followers on how to behave during this period.

3. After Mohammed’s death, the Qur’an was compiled in a non-chronological order which mixed these two separate and distinct messages.

4. The Qur’an as compiled has a very useful purpose. You must be disciplined to get through the long initial chapters, and there is a certain beauty about the ordering according to length. I appreciate the beautiful picture that results. However, as beautiful as it is, that was not the intended picture, for the revelation came in a chronological order.

5. Therefore, the Qur’an as compiled can be likened to a jigsaw puzzle whose pieces have been placed according to their size. This results in a beautiful artistic work. However, if you could order the pieces as intended, chronologically, then a different picture is revealed.

The problem is that although it is well known that the Qur’an is not ordered in accordance with how Mohammed received the revelation, some see it as an unforgivable sin punishable with eternal punishment in the fires of hell, for daring to even think of looking at the chronologically ordered picture of the Qur’an. Why is that Gossamer, why is that?

Regards,
Grenville

[أبو سليمان عمر]

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)

The only two groups that dispute this statement are those who wish to defend, not the truth in the Bible or the Qur’an, but Jewish and Islamic religious traditions.

Regards,
Grenville

And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
This is his affirmation that `he is a worshipper of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, and that he is a creature created by Allah. He (`Isa) will live, die and be resurrected, just like the other creatures that Allah has created.
Not that he died but he will the angel of death will take his soul one day Allah knows best after he returns and kills Dajjal and fulfill what is for him to finish
(157. And because of their saying, "We killed Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'' but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared as that to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not.)Quran 4 157

[Imam]

Hi Imam:

I had already noted that both the Bible and the Qur’an explicitly teach that Jesus is:
• a Servant and Prophet of God; (Bible: Matthew 12:15–18, 13:57/ Qur’an: 19:30, 34)
• born of the virgin Mary; (Luke 1:30–35/3:45–47)
• led by the Holy Spirit; (Luke 4:18–19/2:87)
• a Preacher of the Gospel; (Mark 1:14–15/5:46)
• a Healer who healed the sick and raised the dead; (Matthew 4:23, John 12:1/ 5:110) and
• the Christ or Messiah. (John 4:25–26/3:45)

Hi Grenville
I agree with the previous lines with some exceptions , the terms (Holy spirit&The promised Messiah)as the Quran defines the term Holy spiritin different way.

The Qur’an also teaches that Jesus died and was raised from the dead.

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I shall die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)

First : The verse is a statement by the child Jesus that there was peace on him the day he was born and will be peace on him the day he WILL die and the day he WILL be resurrected ..... in the future .

second: If God inspired the child Jesus ,of peace on him the day shall he die and instead he got tortured and crucified that day,then God simply made a false promise to him....
As a matter of fact such verse predicts the safety for Jesus Peace be upon him from the attempts to kill him.
..............................................

peace

[جوري]

Gossamer:

We have one life to live. Therefore, we should be actively seeking more of the Truth. Jesus spoke the truth of reconciling persons to God and each-other, and He was persecuted for this message. Mohammed came preaching a similar message of being reconciled to God and each other, and he was also persecuted.

Indeed...

[Pickthal 21:1] Their reckoning draweth nigh for mankind, while they turn away in heedlessness.
[Pickthal 21:2] Never cometh there unto them a new reminder from their Lord but they listen to it while they play,
[Pickthal 21:3] With hearts preoccupied. And they confer in secret. The wrong-doers say: Is this other than a mortal like you? Will ye then succumb to magic when ye see (it)?
[Pickthal 21:4] He saith: My Lord knoweth what is spoken in the heaven and the earth. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
[Pickthal 21:5] Nay, say they, (these are but) muddled dreams; nay, he hath but invented it; nay, he is but a poet. Let him bring us a portent even as those of old (who were Allah's messengers) were sent (with portents).
[Pickthal 21:6] Not a township believed of those which We destroyed before them (though We sent them portents): would they then believe?
[Pickthal 21:7] And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not?
[Pickthal 21:8] We gave them not bodies that would not eat food, nor were they immortals.
[Pickthal 21:9] Then we fulfilled the promise unto them. So we delivered them and whom We would, and We destroyed the prodigals.
[Pickthal 21:10] Now We have revealed unto you a Scripture wherein is your Reminder. Have ye then no sense?
[Pickthal 21:11] How many a community that dealt unjustly have We shattered, and raised up after them another folk!
[Pickthal 21:12] And, when they felt Our might, behold them fleeing from it!
[Pickthal 21:13] (But it was said unto them): Flee not, but return to that (existence) which emasculated you and to your dwellings, that ye may be questioned.
[Pickthal 21:14] They cried: Alas for us! we were wrong-doers.
[Pickthal 21:15] And this their crying ceased not till We made them as reaped corn, extinct.
[Pickthal 21:16] We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.
[Pickthal 21:17] If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did.
[Pickthal 21:18] Nay, but We hurl the true against the false, and it doth break its head and lo! it vanisheth. And yours will be woe for that which ye ascribe (unto Him).
[Pickthal 21:19] Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those who dwell in His presence are not too proud to worship Him, nor do they weary;

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Your take home message from the above verses, is that EVERY MESSENGER was persecuted, not simple Jesus or Mohammed (PBUT)

You stated “Yes there are very superficial similarities between the Quran and what preceded it.. but that quickly dissolves since the core principles are completely at odds with each other”

I stand by that!

Dear Gossamer, this is simply incorrect. The core principles are in harmony. Have you not read the article that I referred you to titled The Audacity of Hope? It is the audacity of hoping that Christians will realise the reconciliation taught by Jesus, and Muslims will realize the reconciliation taught by Mohammed.

The whole purpose of Islam is to submit ones will to Allah swt-- I am yet to find the purpose of Christianity-- nonetheless, if I did, I'd have to do it through Jesus as he is allegedly God and thus there is NO harmony between Islam and Christianity!

Gossamer, please follow me for a brief moment. The available evidence supports the views that:

1. Mohammed was a prophet sent by the God of Abraham with a message of reconciliation between God and man (man to include male and female) and between man and man.

Ok

2. Mohammed was sent to execute God’s judgement on the surrounding nations, and he provided instructions to his followers on how to behave during this period.

not just for that period, but for all periods!

3. After Mohammed’s death, the Qur’an was compiled in a non-chronological order which mixed these two separate and distinct messages.

That is nonsense, the Quran is compiled exactly as it should, if it were compiled as it was revealed then it would make no sense, verses in various suras are revealed 23 yrs apart, which is actually part of the inimitability of the Quran, if someone were simply jotting down some poetry of today, they wouldn't have the same fluency in style, rhyme, meaning, context twenty three yrs later, all while managing everything politically, economically, socially, and as alleged plagiarizing from other scriptures as well Greek scientific journals .. I don't think many people contemplate or realize the weight of this factoid! so I'll have to disagree, it is compiled by divine decree not out of whim!

4. The Qur’an as compiled has a very useful purpose. You must be disciplined to get through the long initial chapters, and there is a certain beauty about the ordering according to length. I appreciate the beautiful picture that results. However, as beautiful as it is, that was not the intended picture, for the revelation came in a chronological order.

see above reply

5. Therefore, the Qur’an as compiled can be likened to a jigsaw puzzle whose pieces have been placed according to their size. This results in a beautiful artistic work. However, if you could order the pieces as intended, chronologically, then a different picture is revealed.

Again, not in accordance to size at all, but in accordance with what intended!

The problem is that although it is well known that the Qur’an is not ordered in accordance with how Mohammed received the revelation, some see it as an unforgivable sin punishable with eternal punishment in the fires of hell, for daring to even think of looking at the chronologically ordered picture of the Qur’an. Why is that Gossamer, why is that?

Regards,
Grenville

I have quite explained to you why above~!

all the best

[Walter]

Hi Umar:

This is his affirmation that `he is a worshipper of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, and that he is a creature created by Allah. He (`Isa) will live, die and be resurrected, just like the other creatures that Allah has created.

Not that he died but he will the angel of death will take his soul one day Allah knows best after he returns and kills Dajjal and fulfill what is for him to finish

Please provide some evidence from the Qur’an for this Islamic traditional view.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Dear Imam:

It is becoming clear where we are diverging. It is actually in the interpretation of the following verse.

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)

Islamic tradition interprets the word “peace” as “safety”. Imam, it is possible to have inner peace when all around is turmoil. I believe that Mohammed was at peace, or peace was upon him, despite the persecution he and his followers endured, without retaliating, for those initial 9 years.

Around the time of Jesus’ birth, there was much persecution as Herod tried to kill Him by murdering all of the newborn males in the area. Jesus was not safe, as His parents had to flee to Egypt, yet peace was upon Him. When the Jewish religious leaders persecuted Jesus because He challenged, not their scriptures, but their Jewish religious traditions that violated their scriptures, peace was upon Jesus. When the Jews turned Jesus over to the Romans who tortured and killed Him, peace was upon Jesus.

When Jesus was in the garden praying the same night that He was arrested, He did ask God that He be spared what was to come, but He accepted His mission and submitted His will to God’s. Peace was upon Him. When He was on the cross, and through the pain questioned God’s commitment to Him, yet He was at peace and declared “Into your Hands I commend my Spirit.”

So despite the violent environment in which he was born, in which He engaged the Jewish leaders, and in which He died, yet God’s peace was upon Him.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

Hi Umar:



Please provide some evidence from the Qur’an for this Islamic traditional view.

Regards,
Grenville

(18) And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being] before his ['Îsa (Jesus) عليه السلام) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Îsa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #159)

[جوري]

(34) And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام on the earth], We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations). (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,).
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #104)

[Imam]

Dear Imam:

It is becoming clear where we are diverging. It is actually in the interpretation
Islamic tradition interprets the word “peace” as “safety”. Imam, it is possible to have inner peace when all around is turmoil. I believe that Mohammed was at peace, or peace was upon him, despite the persecution he and his followers endured, without retaliating, for those initial 9 years.


Regards,
Grenville

Dear Grenville


So you would understand the peace to be only inner peace?

ok
I believe sometimes possible to have inner peace when all around is turmoil ....
but I don't think , according to new testament the day Jesus got crucified he had neither outer peace nor inner peace ...

he is said to have had extreme inner agony and pain reflected in his loud cry

Matthew 27:45-46, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

Those are not the words of a pious man experiencing in that day any kind of peace.....

but again as you said It is becoming clear where we are diverging. It is actually in the interpretation but not of the word (Salaam,peace) whether it means safety or inner peace.....it is the words in future tense

(will die) and (will be resurrected)

which you mistakenly interpret as

(was killed) and (was resurrected)....

I'm sure the Arabic past tense in some cases denote present and future
as

وسيرت الجبال فكانت سرابا


كان الله عليما حكيما


ان جهنم كانت مرصادا


but the opposite (future simple denote past) is simply impossible.

If one claim Jesus according to the Quran WAS killed and Jesus WAS resurrected

one must back it up from the Quran ..

for the sake of argument let's assume that the verse is

(peace be upon me the day I was born,the day I was killed,the day I was resurrected)

what does it prove?
It would prove Quranic contradiction as we already read

(They neither killed him nor crucified him)!!!



peace

[Walter]

Hi Gossamer:

You have quoted a useful chapter.

Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us). To Him belong all (creatures) in the heavens and on earth: Even those who are in His (very) Presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor are they (ever) weary (of His service) (21:18-19)

It is similar in some ways to Jesus’ statements about those who choose religious tradition over the Truth.

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes’?

“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet. (Matthew 21:42-46)

Your comment: “That is nonsense, the Qur’an is compiled exactly as it should, if it were compiled as it was revealed then it would make no sense” is simply wrong. Have you even tried reading it chronological order Gossamer? I think that you will be pleasantly surprised.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

Hi Gossamer:

You have quoted a useful chapter.

Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us). To Him belong all (creatures) in the heavens and on earth: Even those who are in His (very) Presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor are they (ever) weary (of His service) (21:18-19)

It is similar in some ways to Jesus’ statements about those who choose religious tradition over the Truth.

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes’?

“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet. (Matthew 21:42-46)

Greetings,

Does the above quote apply to Christians? I see them following many pagan traditions rather than sticking to pure unadulterated monotheism!

Your comment: “That is nonsense, the Qur’an is compiled exactly as it should, if it were compiled as it was revealed then it would make no sense” is simply wrong. Have you even tried reading it chronological order Gossamer? I think that you will be pleasantly surprised.

Regards,
Grenville

Of course I have-- you are not the first to bring that request forth, though I personally fail to see what any of you gain from it.. There was no surprise to me, save for the brilliance of having it as it is now without any filing or computer programs. No wonder the Quran is described as inimitable!


all the best

[Walter]

Dear Imam:

If we stay with what the Qur’an actually says, we read:

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)

So we have the past tense for His birth (was born) and the future tense for His death and resurrection. The context is in recalling what Jesus said while He was a baby on the Earth centuries earlier. Therefore, this verse is entirely consistent with the Biblical account that Jesus did actually die later in His life, and was resurrected.

I have already addressed the inner peach that Jesus Had while on the cross. When He was on the cross, He did question God’s commitment to Him (My God, why …), yet as the subsequent verses show, despite the pain of crucifixion, Jesus was at peace and declared “Into your Hands I commend my Spirit.” That is a statement of peace Imam.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Gossamer:

Does the above quote apply to Christians? I see them following many pagan traditions rather than sticking to pure unadulterated monotheism!

This would apply to anyone who puts their religious traditions above the truth of the Scriptures. Therefore, I would say that it applies to Jews, Christians, and yes, Muslims too.

Of course I have-- you are not the first to bring that request forth, though I personally fail to see what any of you gain from it.. There was no surprise to me, save for the brilliance of having it as it is now without any filing or computer programs. No wonder the Quran is described as inimitable!!

Well congratulations Gossamer, for you previously stated:

That is nonsense, the Quran is compiled exactly as it should, if it were compiled as it was revealed then it would make no sense,

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

Hi Gossamer:



This would apply to anyone who puts their religious traditions above the truth of the Scriptures. Therefore, I would say that it applies to Jews, Christians, and yes, Muslims too.

People who wish to embrace Islam can keep themselves from traditions, whilst I believe Christians have a difficult time divorcing themselves from it if at all, given that all major religious observances are nothing but pagan in origin!

Well congratulations Gossamer, for you previously stated:



Regards,
Grenville

I don't see how the two comments are at odds?

all the best

[Imam]

Hi ,Grenville

I have already addressed the inner peach that Jesus Had while on the cross.

And I have addressed the inner agony that Jesus Had while on the cross using the Bible too.....

In the Bible you can prove everything ....

you can prove Jesus to be God
and you can prove Jesus isn't God ,too.

You can prove salvation through atonement
and you can prove salvation through works ,too.

etc.....................

but above all it is not our issue ..let's concentrate on the Quran a little....

Dear Imam:

If we stay with what the Qur’an actually says, we read:

[I]

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I shall die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! (19:30–34)

this verse is entirely consistent with the Biblical account that Jesus did actually die later in His life, and was resurrected.

1- check the underlined again to find out where the inconsistency is.

2- To put an end for any doubt that the verse mentions the future resurrection from the dead in the day of resurrection (Judgment) let's take a look at another verse using the same term

Quran 19: 12 So Peace on him(John the baptist) the day he was born the day the day of his death and the day he will be raised up to life !

John the baptist never been raised up to life later in His life ...the meaning is clear in both the verse of Jesus and John (resurrection of both in the day of Judgment).....


peace

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Greenvile
quran 2 28. How can you disbelieve in Allâh? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.
we all die and all come back to Allah Jesus as well
quran 19 30-34
30. "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" ...He is a slave and a prophet
31. "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live" ...He had to worship God and follow his commands
32. "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest.
33. "And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I "SHALL" be raised alive!" ..He was born (btw God is not born) And the Day He dies and A day he SHALL return going back to ayah 28 surah 2 we all are live then die and come back on the day of Resurrection just like your God
34. Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).
READ IT MAKE SENSE OF IT UNDERSTAND IT AND STOP TRYING TO MAKE THE QURAN MAKE YOUR RELIGION LOOK right for the Quran says
And whoever seeks a Way of life other than submission and surrender to Allah's Will (Islam), it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
[Noble Quran 3:85] Mean anyother way of life is loser
also about your book
And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.

It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book and Al-Hukma (the knowledge and understanding of the laws of religion, etc.) and Prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allah's." On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyun (learned men of religion who practice what they know and also preach others), because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it."
[Noble Quran 3:78-79]
People lied about the revelations, changed their scriptures (the Bible and everyother book before Quran)
so if you dont mind stop wasting our time and your time with this non sense of harmony between false (bible/Christan) and truth (Quran/islam) There is one God one truth one way of life nothing else
Harmony
compatibility in opinion and action Sure the bible still has a little of truth but how we know which do we pick and chose what we like or think?
NO we dont God gave us a way to follow to the T no picking and chosing Quran is that it is the whole truth nothing but the truth everyword is the Word of God in the Quran not anyone else so can there be harmony no is there no

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Greenvile
63. And when 'Iesa (Jesus) came with (Our) clear Proofs, he said: "I have come to you with Al-Hikmah (Prophethood), and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) in which you differ, therefore fear Allâh and obey me,
64. "Verily, Allâh! He is my Lord (God) and your Lord (God). So worship Him (Alone). This is the (only) Straight Path (i.e. Allâh's religion of true Islâmic Monotheism)."
SO God is one and only on Isa pbuh Worshiped and told ppl to worship God Alone then look at the next verse
65. But the sects from among themselves differed. So woe to those who do wrong (by ascribing things to 'Iesa (Jesus) that are not true) from the torment of a painful Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)!
Woe is a valley in Hell so Woe to those who ascribing things to 'Iesa (Jesus) that are not true) and there is what torment of a painful Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)! the above ayat are from
Quran 43 63 - 65

[Grace Seeker]

because it says what it means and means what it says (Jesus never ever been put on a cross)... let alone be killed.

Why? Because it says that they crucified him not? Does that have to mean that he was never put on the cross? Or can it not simply mean that the act of hanging him on the cross did not result in his crucifixion?

If he died even for five minutes then death had won on that day.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point of view. It isn't central to the question I am asking anyway.

Which Jesus?
If the physical ,then death had defeated him that day he died on the cross.

Yes, if you focus on that day alone. But taking the longer view, what appeared to be a defeat and death was in fact not defeat at all, but the means to an even greater victory in that the power of death to seperate us from God was totally destroyed by Christ's resurrection.

If the spiritual ,death never defeated the spiritual Jesus neither any other spiritual being.

And don't we always have to look at spiritual realities as much as we do the physical world?

I'm sure I understand your post ... you try to render the meaning of the verse as:

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they killed his spirit not nor crucified his spirit .

Not quite. I'm suggesting that in the case where a person is sentenced to by hung by his neck until dead, that if the execution is proceeded with, the rope put around his neck and he is dropped through the floor, but the process then goes awry and he lives. Some might technically say that he was hung (however briefly), but it would also be true that another could write of the event, they thought they had hung him, but in only appeared so to them, for the hung him not. So, my question is about whether or not a similar sort of rendering might be an equally appropriate rending of 4:157?

Does that make any sense? (My question, not my conclusion.)

[Walter]

Dear Imam:

You are gravely mistaken if you believe that the Bible can be used to prove anything. The juveniles who have never read it in its entirety may misinterpret it, but anyone who has read it in its entirety and with a fair degree of common sense can see where the juveniles have erred.

I see that you are comparing 19:15 (John) with 19:33 (Jesus). This is a valid comparison. According to the Bible, John was born, died, but was not raised to life. Therefore, if 19:15 is to be in harmony with the Bible, then we must interpret it as you have; namely that John will be raised at the ressurection.

Again, according to the Bible, Jesus was born and He died (like John, while He was on the Earth) on the cross. Also, according to the Bible, Jesus was ressurected on the 3rd day.

So Imam we have a choice. We can either interpret the verse that Jesus did not die, which is not a good comparison with 19:15, or we can interpret it to be in harmony with the Bible. I choose the latter.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Dear Umar:

Where are these unfounded accusations coming from? Let me ask you Umar:

1. Where have I denied that we are to submit to One God?

2. Where have I denied that Jesus is anything but what the Qur'an teaches Him to be?

I await your responses.

Regards,
Grenville

[GreyKode]

So Imam we have a choice. We can either interpret the verse that Jesus did not die, which is not a good comparison with 19:15, or we can interpret it to be in harmony with the Bible. I choose the latter.

How about choosing the interpretation to be in harmony with the Quran alone, I would rather choose that, which is the interpretation that he didn't die.

[GreyKode]

2. Where have I denied that Jesus is anything but what the Qur'an teaches Him to be?

alright grenville say this " I bear witness that Jesus(pbuh) is a slave and messenger of ALLAH(swt)"

[syilla]

alright grenville say this " I bear witness that Jesus(pbuh) is a slave and messenger of ALLAH(swt)"

MashaAllah :) :statisfie

[sacredagent]

Assalamualaikum,

In my opinion, if we are to see to harmony between Bible and Qur'an, one of the best way is to read Brandon Toropov's Beyond Mere Christianity. In that book, Mr. Toropov focused on the so-called Quelle (Q) verses of the Bible, said to be the most reliable of Jesus' sayings. There, we'll find some paralel between what the Qur'an and the Bible command. After reading the books, I came to the conclusion that those verses (Quelle and Qur'an) come from the same source.

Allah knows best.

[Walter]

Hi Grey Kode:

alright grenville say this " I bear witness that Jesus(pbuh) is a slave and messenger of ALLAH(swt)"

Kode, I have repeatedly stated that both the Bible and the Qur’an explicitly teach that Jesus is:
• a Servant and Prophet of God; (Bible: Matthew 12:15–18, 13:57/ Qur’an: 19:30, 34)
• born of the virgin Mary; (Luke 1:30–35/3:45–47)
• led by the Holy Spirit; (Luke 4:18–19/2:87)
• a Preacher of the Gospel; (Mark 1:14–15/5:46)
• a Healer who healed the sick and raised the dead; (Matthew 4:23, John 12:1/ 5:110) and
• the Christ or Messiah. (John 4:25–26/3:45)

Your description of "slave and messenger" would be included in the first item "Servant and Prophet of God", which is in harmony with both the Bible and the Qur'an.

Kode, I noticed that when given a choice to interpret the Qur'an so that it is in harmony with the Bible, or in conflict with the Bible, that you are eager to choose the latter. Why Kode, why?

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

Where are you going with this?
You can't be the messenger of God and God at the same time, perhaps that is why not only Kode but the rest of us are for the 'latter'!

all the best

[Walter]

Hi Sacredagent:

In my opinion, if we are to see to harmony between Bible and Qur'an, one of the best way is to read Brandon Toropov's Beyond Mere Christianity. In that book, Mr. Toropov focused on the so-called Quelle (Q) verses of the Bible, said to be the most reliable of Jesus' sayings. There, we'll find some paralel between what the Qur'an and the Bible command. After reading the books, I came to the conclusion that those verses (Quelle and Qur'an) come from the same source.

I am familiar with studies that assume that the Bible and the Qur'an have been translated incorrectly. Therefore, these scholars use other source documents and try to re-translate the Bible and the Qur'an in order to force harmony. This is not true with Brothers Kept Apart.

Brothers Kept Apart assumes that any typical English translation of the Bible and the Qur'an can be used, because while some minor details may change, the central message in both books remain. The study assumed both the Bible and the Qur'an were correct, and then found harmony between the principal teachings of both without damaging the integrity of the verses in either.

The great misconception that I have found among those reacting to the book without actually reading it, is that they have assumed that the book has found harmony between the Qur'an and Christian religious tradition, which it has not.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Dear Gossamer:

Where are you going with this?
You can't be the messenger of God and God at the same time, perhaps that is why not only Kode but the rest of us are for the 'latter'!

We have not yet started to discuss the contentious matter of Jesus' divinity as yet. Yet these unsupported accusations of what the study has revealed continue to be made? Why not either read the study, or rationally discuss the matter to learn of the results. Why continue to confidently assert what it found without even taking the time to read it?

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

Dear Gossamer:



We have not yet started to discuss the contentious matter of Jesus' divinity as yet. Yet these unsupported accusations of what the study has revealed continue to be made? Why not either read the study, or rationally discuss the matter to learn of the results. Why continue to confidently assert what it found without even taking the time to read it?

Regards,
Grenville

You haven't defined for us the actual nidus of your study and I am certain that one exists.. or is this casual banter for the sake of it?

all the best

[alcurad]

but Grenville, his divinity is the main issue here, atleast for muslims,,
otherwise:
• a Servant and Prophet of God
• born of the virgin Mary
• led by the Holy Spirit
• a Preacher of the Gospel
• a Healer who healed the sick and raised the dead
• the Christ or Messiah

these points would be better discussed with our christian 'cousins' rather than with Muslims, since all Muslims do agree with those already.

[Imam]

Why? Because it says that they crucified him not? Does that have to mean that he was never put on the cross? Or can it not simply mean that the act of hanging him on the cross did not result in his crucifixion?

It does have to mean he was never put on the cross

the verse has 2 verbs:

(Katala) ,to kill

(Salaba) ,to put on a cross.

They neither (katalo) Jesus nor (salabo) Jesus.....

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point of view. It isn't central to the question I am asking anyway.

we would find out soon that such point (the significance of the death of Jesus?) to be the only central point of our discussion and all what we do now is discussing the trivial point (was Jesus crucified?)!!

Don't be surprised (and most Muslim readers of the thread too)....soon I will explain what I mean............

death was in fact not defeat at all, but the means to an even greater victory in that the power of death to seperate us from God was totally destroyed by Christ's resurrection..

Now you shift the focus on the resurrection which you call a victory,I have to disagree with that...

If a resurrection by the power of the father totally destroy what you call(The power of death) then I can argue that one of the list of those been resurrected from the dead in both the Old and New Testament before Jesus did the Job instead....

more to be mentioned in that crucial point later...............

And don't we always have to look at spiritual realities as much as we do the physical world?

They are spiritual but are they realities?

that is the question.

Some might technically say that he was hung (however briefly), but it would also be true that another could write of the event, they thought they had hung him, but in only appeared so to them, for the hung him not. So, my question is about whether or not a similar sort of rendering might be an equally appropriate rending of 4:157?

That is another rendering which we can call (swoon theory)

He was put on the cross but didn't die and escaped injured!!..

the weakness of such speculation is what I mentioned before
(The verse says literally that they didn't put Jesus on a cross)...

why would I ignore the literal obvious meaning and resort to speculations without proofs instead?!!

my next post for greenvile later when I have time inshaAllah

peace

[Walter]

Hi Alcurad:

but Grenville, his divinity is the main issue here, atleast for muslims,,
otherwise:
• a Servant and Prophet of God
• born of the virgin Mary
• led by the Holy Spirit
• a Preacher of the Gospel
• a Healer who healed the sick and raised the dead
• the Christ or Messiah
these points would be better discussed with our christian 'cousins' rather than with Muslims, since all Muslims do agree with those already.

Finally! So now that we have established an area of harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an, let us go forward carefully so that we can identify the point of divergence.

Now let us try a little exercise. Let us imagine that we are each holding up two corners of a square table. Let us also imagine that we have finally got a marble to balance on the suspended table. As we go forward, let us try to keep the marble balanced as much as we are able.

Therefore, if a verse in the Qur'an can be interpreted to be in harmony with the Bible, without damaging the integrity of the verse in the Qur'an, then for this exercise, let us just try it. Agreed?

Regards,
Grenville

[Imam]

Dear:Grenville

I see that you are comparing 19:15 (John) with 19:33 (Jesus). This is a valid comparison.

No ,hold on

I was Not comparing John with Jesus(Person vs person ) I was showing you that there is a verse with a similar structure refers to future resurrection in the day of judgment.......


If you treat the John of 19:15 with the Jesus of 19:33 as identical then:

1- both of them died natural death (not killed,as the fact one of them mentioned not to be killed and you assume them to be typical then the other necessarily not killed too) in peace.

2-they both will be resurrected from the dead in the day of Judgment.

so you see, even if you understand it this way the problem remains!...

According to the Bible, John was born, died, but was not raised to life. Therefore, if 19:15 is to be in harmony with the Bible, then we must interpret it as you have; namely that John will be raised at the resurrection.

Dear Grenville

plz.... I have one condition for this peaceful discussion to go on.

is to respect the subject matter.......our current subject matter is the Quran and only the Quran......I think it is fair before comparing the Quran with the Bible.....is to finish understanding all what the Quran says regarding the topic under discussion....

We can either interpret the verse that Jesus did not die, which is not a good comparison with 19:15

well,
If you interpret the verse that Jesus did die you have to
1-provide me soon the Quranic text that his death was due to crucification or killing.
2-That the resurrection of 19:15 is different from the resurrection of 19:33

in other words provide a Quranic verse claims that Jesus was resurrected from
the dead................


I hope this time you won't resort to the Bible and focus on the Quran......

In other words, the Quran tells clearly

(Jesus neither been killed nor been crucified) why don't you believe what it means? Don't you believe that the Quran negates that Jesus was crucified? if not why not?

I hope you answer that specific question before we go ahead...


peace

[Walter]

Dear Imam:

(Jesus neither been killed nor been crucified) why don't you believe what it means? Don't you believe that the Quran negates that Jesus was crucified? if not why not?

I hope you answer that specific question before we go ahead...

I do believe what the Qur’an says about Jesus. While you are claiming that Jesus was not killed or crucified, I do not believe that this is what the Qur’an appears to teach.

As previously explained, the verse 19:33 can be interpreted as you have and as I have. If it is interpreted as you have, then to maintain the integrity of 4:157, you would then have to interpret “they killed him not, nor crucified him” as no one killed Him nor crucified Him. This interpretation damages the integrity of the verse since “they” cannot be equated with “no one”.

That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:—Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; (4:157–158)

If 19:33 is interpreted as I have, which is that Jesus was crucified and killed, then 4:157 would have to be interpreted as the Jews (“they”) killed him not, nor crucified him, which is exactly what the verse states. Therefore, the interpretation that Jesus was crucified and killed, not by the Jews as the Qur’an accurately states, but by the Romans as the Bible and recorded history confirms, is both possible and likely.

Regards,
Grenville

[aadil77]

no one interprets that verse that way. Allah refers explicitly to his socalled crucifixion and death, saying that it did not happen at all, not that it did not happen by the jews.

If you read the other verses referring to this, you will read that he was raised and will descend near the end of time, showing that he did not die and will come to live the rest of his life on earth later on

So there's clearly no harmony with this one

[Grace Seeker]

Where are you going with this?
You can't be the messenger of God and God at the same time, perhaps that is why not only Kode but the rest of us are for the 'latter'!

Why can't one be in both roles at the same time? The two are not necessarily inherently inconsistent with one another. So, why say that one cannot be both at the same time?

[جوري]

Why can't one be in both roles at the same time? The two are not necessarily inherently inconsistent with one another. So, why say that one cannot be both at the same time?

It lacks continuity!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

That is another rendering which we can call (swoon theory)

He was put on the cross but didn't die and escaped injured!!..

the weakness of such speculation is what I mentioned before

I'm familiar with the swoon theory. I was making no such reference, for I consider it to be a total mockery of the events which unfolded. I was just looking at the possibility of a different interpretation than the standard interpretation of those verses. You actually answer that when you said:

It does have to mean he was never put on the cross

the verse has 2 verbs:

(Katala) ,to kill

(Salaba) ,to put on a cross.

They neither (katalo) Jesus nor (salabo) Jesus.....

So, we are back to our two sets of scriptures being in clear disagreement over a major issue. The Bible says that Jesus died by being crucified on a cross. The Quran says that not only did Jesus not die by crucifixion, but that he was never even put on a cross. So, I don't know how nor why Greenville has reached the conclusion that he has? But if that is the only thing left to talk about here, I think I'll just watch the rest of this thread from the sidelines. I'm pretty sure we each know what we and the other believes. It would be nice if there were some middle ground on this point; I know we share a lot of beliefs in common on many other points, but it doesn't appear that there is any middle ground on some of the most important issues.

Nonetheless, I wish you well and peace with God.

[YusufNoor]

Why can't one be in both roles at the same time? The two are not necessarily inherently inconsistent with one another. So, why say that one cannot be both at the same time?

if one comes bearing the message of another, then one is subservient to the other. the subservient one cannot be equal to the other.

not equal = no trinity

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

if one comes bearing the message of another, then one is subservient to the other. the subservient one cannot be equal to the other.

not equal = no trinity

:w:

First, to be the bearer of a message does not mean that it is another's message. A person might choose to deliver their own message. Then one could be both the message bearer and the author of the message. No subservience in that. Also, I don't see the lack of continuity, but if others do each is entitled to his/her own opinion.


Second, while many would assert that the Trinity implies complete equal position and power among each of its memebers, that is not strictly necessary for the orthodox view. Indeed, among Greek Orthodox, I think you will find sort of a hierarchy in the Godhead with the Father in the preeminent positon, then the Son, and lastly the Holy Spirit. However, I am not well-schooled on Greek Orthodox theology, so I may be mistaken on that. But certainly, monarchism, allows for the monarchy of the Father with there still being a sharing of divinity among the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. This is basically the position of Tertullian who first coined the term Trinity. So, though Tertullian would not have said that the three persons were of equal authority, he did argue...

...though three, the Persons were severally manifestions of a single indivisible power, noting that on the analogy of the imperial government one and the same sovereignty could be exercised by coordinate agencies.

source: J.N.D. Kelley, Early Christian Doctrines, New York: Harper Press, 1958, p. 113.

Also, Tertullian maintained the distinction between Father, Son, and Spirit did not imply seperation or division; technically put, it was a matter of distinctio rather than separation. Moreover, Tertullian surmised Jesus' saying "I and the Father are one" means that Father and Son are of "one substance"; it is a matter of identity of substance rather than numerical unity. By extension, Son and Spirit are of the same substance with Father. Thus, we can speak of God's one "substance" and three distinct yet undivided "persons". (Tertullian, Against Praxeas 12, pp. 598-607.)

[جوري]

Also, I don't see the lack of continuity, but if others do each is entitled to his/her own opinion.

The fact that you have to give a sermon each time to explain something that is supposed to be so simple should echo in your mind all that is wrong with your formula.. It isn't really an opinion it is an illogical belief that you can't reconcile for thinking people...
Now..
God is either one!
or he is as you describe-- meek, feeble and ineffectual being, who nunciates himself/eats and poops/prays and cries/forsakes himself and dies, all for something as anticlimactic as to saving folks from his own wrath.
It is a useless act for a God to do!
I can't worship, a being I can't respect or expect that he should keep his promises to himself-- for why would he for the rest of humanity?

I think the choice is clear, and it isn't a matter of opinion-- it is a matter of what satisfies both the heart and mind!

all the best

[Imam]

we are back to our two sets of scriptures being in clear disagreement over a major issue. The Bible says that Jesus died by being crucified on a cross. The Quran says that not only did Jesus not die by crucifixion, but that he was never even put on a cross. So, I don't know how nor why Greenville has reached the conclusion that he has? .

Peace

Greenville has reached the conclusion as in his last post:

It is true according to the Quran that The Jews never killed Jesus ,the Romans did.

first:1 Thessalonians 2:15 The Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets

Second: The following verse would eliminate any doubt that the mission of Jesus terminated in peace....

[5:110] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I saved you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them.

It would be illogical to assume that If Jesus been executed by the Romans, Allah would remind him of his bless on him of saving him from the Jews!!!
or may be the torture and crucification by the Romans hurts less?:)


To sum up the point under discussion:

The following concepts mere weak traditions and wild speculations that absent from the Quranic text:

1-That Jesus been substituted on the cross by someone else.

2-That Jesus been crucified and been injured but escaped the cross(swoon theory).

3- That the claim that Jesus died willingly won't damage the claim (neither the Jews nor the Roman crucified him) as he did it with willingly then none crucified him but it is he who did it.

4- That the Quran deny Jewish crucification but affirms Roman one.

There are 2 other points not really related to the matter under discussion(whether Jesus been crucified or not) :

1- It is already established that Jesus never been crucified according to the Quran ,but did he die a natural death or lifted to heaven alive?
Is that concept supported by clear verses in the Quran or mere traditions?

2- Is there a clear Quranic support for a supposed second coming of Jesus? or mere traditions,If traditions how strong such traditions?

discussing those two points (that not related to the issue of crucification )will be later InshaAllah.....

-------------------------------------------

Now I think we arrived at the key word of understanding the real obstacle to make a harmony between the NT and the Quran regarding The death of Jesus....


In order to find out the point lets first assume that Jesus is included,according to the Quran in the list of the slain prophets;
Holy Quran 3:181 We shall certainly record their word and (their act) of slaying the prophets in defiance of right.

assuming the verse to be;

Holy Quran 4:157 That they killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.

will be there a harmony between the NT and the Quran? yes it will ,both agree that Jesus been killed , but hold on the biggest obstacle is waiting.........

(The significance of the death of Jesus)

The Quran Just as early christian sects sees no significance at all with the death of anyone regarding attaining heaven, and rejects entirely the concept of blood atonement ........
and that is the crux of the matter ,harmonize the crucification of Jesus in both the Bible and the Quran as much as you can till you reach the big obstacle (The significance of the death of Jesus)which no amount of attempts will ever solve......

And that is the approach I got after years of reflecting the issue..
I abandoned entirely the old approach (was Jesus crucified?) and recommend
(Has the death of Jesus any significance?)

The same way I abandoned the approach (Did Jesus say I'm God or worship me?)
and recommend the approach (Is the New Testament inerrant?)

and above all I even put the 2 previous questions as inferior to the biggest Question and the most crucial,clear ,effective ,that let me feel totally satisfied to believe the Bible to be not entirely inspired..... It is my favorite topic , the most importance of all issues in the arena of Biblical criticism it is (the issue of Bible prophecies especially the Messianic prophecies).........

It is more important than the Trinity
It is more important than the crucification.....


peace for all

[AntiKarateKid]

Why can't one be in both roles at the same time? The two are not necessarily inherently inconsistent with one another. So, why say that one cannot be both at the same time?

Because Jesus said he was a messenger OF God, not a messenger AND God. I'm just going by what he said.

"of" is different than "and."

[Grace Seeker]

Because Jesus said he was a messenger OF God, not a messenger AND God. I'm just going by what he said.

"of" is different than "and."

I keep hearing this line from Muslims that Jesus never claimed to be God. I've shown where he in fact did in the past, I'll not go into again here, but I'll gladly direct you to those posts if you either missed or forgot them. So, if you believe that Jesus spoke the truth from God, and if among those statements is that he was himself one with the Father. You sort of have to accept that he also was God. That or begin to admit that you don't take Jesus at his word, at least that which is recorded in the Gospels found in the NT. And I think that is really the issue. You don't accept the Gospel record. You only trust the Injil, a gospel that no one can read, but you claim to still know what it says because the Qur'an has told you so. And once again, as this thread so clearly illustrates, despite its title, there is very little harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an.

[AntiKarateKid]

I keep hearing this line from Muslims that Jesus never claimed to be God. I've shown where he in fact did in the past, I'll not go into again here, but I'll gladly direct you to those posts if you either missed or forgot them. So, if you believe that Jesus spoke the truth from God, and if among those statements is that he was himself one with the Father. You sort of have to accept that he also was God. That or begin to admit that you don't take Jesus at his word, at least that which is recorded in the Gospels found in the NT. And I think that is really the issue. You don't accept the Gospel record. You only trust the Injil, a gospel that no one can read, but you claim to still know what it says because the Qur'an has told you so. And once again, as this thread so clearly illustrates, despite its title, there is very little harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an.

I'm pretty sure you were thoroughly rebutted by the likes of Imam and the others. I'm no scholar but their explanations seemed more realistic.

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

Thank you for your reasonable post. You have addresses a few different topics. In an effort to keep the marble on the table, let us deal with them one at a time.

I see that you are using Thessalonians as evidence, where I was limiting my evidence to the Qur’an, the Old Testament, and the Gospels. Nevertheless, let us proceed.

Your principal evidence for asserting that Jesus was not crucified is 5:110. This appears to be conclusive evidence. However, for completeness, let us critically review it, for any claim of truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny.

The last part of 5:110 states:

“I did restrain the Children of Israel from thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”

This passage does provide evidence that God did not allow the children of Israel to harm Jesus. However, the context of the verse appears to support the interpretation that the Jews tried to harm Jesus because of His earlier miracles and teachings, rather than later events surrounding His death.

The Bible provides several examples where the Jews tried to harm Jesus because of His sayings and miracles. Two examples follow.

Then He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country. But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath, in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.”

So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff. Then passing through the midst of them, He went His way. (Luke 4:24–30)

The second example follows.

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shrivelled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, warning them not to tell who he was. (Matthew 12:9-16)

In these and other similar instances, God seemed to have restrained the children of Israel from harming Jesus.

So to summarise. Since the interpretation that Jesus was not crucified by the Jews (as the Qur’an explicitly states), but by the Romans (as the Bible explicitly states) does not damage the integrity of 5:110 or 19:33, then the marble is still on the table.

Let us now discuss the deity of Jesus.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

Jews after Jesus (check)
God kept Jews at bay as per your bible (check)
what doesn't follow is why God would not restrain them the day after rigorous prayers by himself in the Garden of Gethsemane..

--for Allah never fails in His promise." (3:9)

"Our Lord! Grant us what Thou didst promise unto us through Thy Messengers, and save us from shame on the Day of Judgment; for Thou never breakest Thy promise."(3:194)




Allah's promise is the truth, and whose word can be truer than Allah's? (4:122)

All that hath been promised unto you will come to pass: nor can ye frustrate it (in the least bit).(6:134)


and who is more faithful to his Covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme (9:111)

Just a few verses, where Allah swt affirms that his promise is true.. so Would he forsake his most precious (his son) or as you'll have us believe himself?

When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.(3:52)



Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.(3:55)






O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. 4:171









from

from the above verses you should deduce a few things
1- Sure Jesus was persecuted but as were all the messengers before him and to this day still
2- God doesn't break a promise least of which to a messenger he favors above the disbelievers
3- the verse you allude to about Jesus' death [Pickthal 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
denotes that Jesus is a man not a God, that it is his lot to die (has to do more with his second coming and the reason behind it) amongst other things that, death is decreed upon men, not upon God!


all the best

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

God gave us the greatest commandments to love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. God also said that we should love and pray for our enemies.

In the spirit of praying for justice and salvation for all people.

Eric

[Grace Seeker]

I'm pretty sure you were thoroughly rebutted by the likes of Imam and the others. I'm no scholar but their explanations seemed more realistic.

No. Actually they haven't responded to the most recent time I dealt with this, here in. In the past, their response is that even though you have verses where the Jews testify to Jesus having made these claims (for instance John 10:33), that since it is the Jews who are quoted and not Jesus that either (1) the Jews are mistaken or (2) you can't trust the Gospels to begin with, so it doesn't matter what is in them. That's not rebuttal, that is simply dismissal. And that's what I keep hearing. I accept that. You believe the Qur'an, not the Bible. So, you dismiss the Bible. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is to then argue that the Bible supports the beliefs of Islam when it doesn't.

[BlackMamba]

I find it kind of sad that Christians have to INFER from the bible about their main belief. They have to say "well jesus kind of implies from this passage that he might be worthy of worship because he doesnt stop the people from saying it". When I read that stuff I'm stunned, I mean is that all you guys got in that humongous bible about the core beliefs of your religion. You gotta make guesses about who to pray to. I mean where in the bible does it even talk about your holy trinity....no where. What is this? The bible is such a long book but it still doesnt cannot find enough space to outline the core beliefs of a christian. I find that very strange.

Look at how clear the Quran is. Read chapter 112 surah Ikhlas. Read the ayahs in surah Nisaa and Ma'idah dismissing trinity/shirk. The Quran is more clear about your trinity than the bible itself, which never even mentions it.

[Imam]

In the past, their response is that even though you have verses where the Jews testify to Jesus having made these claims (for instance John 10:33), that since it is the Jews who are quoted and not Jesus that either (1) the Jews are mistaken or (2) you can't trust the Gospels to begin with

Peace,

You missed a third option (3) The New Testament contains both truth and falsehoods therein.

in other words If you ask the question Is Jesus God?
you gonna have 2 answers

Yes he is

(assuming the Trinitarian understanding of the text to be valid,and all other interpretation as here http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/l.../contents.html to be invalid)

John 1,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


John 10:30"I and my father are one."

John 14:8-9"He that hath seen me hath seen the father."

,John 14:6
"I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me."

John 8:58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
The Jews answered him, "We are not going to stone you for a good work but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, are making yourself God!"


etc......

No, he isn't.


Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?,

John 5:30 And "I can of mine own self do nothing.


John 10:35 Jesus replied to them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'?If he called those to whom the word of God came 'gods' (and the Scripture cannot be disregarded),how can you say to the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?


etc..........


So what?which of the two contradictory answers to be valid?Either Jesus is God or he isn't ,there is no in between...

well, the Judge is waiting which tells us which answer is valid , it is the inerrant,miraculous word of God ,It endorses the answer No.2 and reject the other contradictory one..

Qur'an 4:171: “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than an apostle of Allah.

Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They indeed misbelieve who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.”

Sorry Greenville to interrupt the discussion on the thread title ,my next post for you later InshAllah

peace

[Grace Seeker]

Imam, your response is an option. Another is to see these sets of statements as both true and hold them in the tension the arises from them. It is out of that tension that the major Christological doctrines developed.

[alcurad]

but grace; developed = wasn't there before, rather I'd say it was a regression.
no offense but I can't understand how returning to the multiple godhead system is any development-given monotheism/Jewish concept of God-.

the thread is about harmony between the qur'an and bible, but is the bible harmonious in the first place? take both the OT and NT and we have strikingly different versions of God, let alone the rest.

[Follower]

The Old Testament shows why man needs the New Testament. The Old Testament is history of our relationship with GOD. Prophecy about the coming of Jesus.

Of course it appears that there is a disconnect between the Old Testament and the GOOD NEWS of the New Testament!!

Where does it say that Jesus was or never was put on a cross in the Quran? Just because it doesn't say it doesn't mean it didn't exist befroe Uthamn burned the various copies or the separate copies of the companions wrtiings were lost. or was the verse lost in a battle when the Quran was memorized and not compiled into a book?

“You can't be the messenger of God and God at the same time”

Says who? All of humanity has limited minds. We can not begin to understand the fullness of who GOD is. I believe that Islam trys to define of who GOD is. They put GOD in a neat little package that we can understand, but that is too small of a package.

Why do we need to understand all that GOD is?

['Abd-al Latif]

The Old Testament shows why man needs the New Testament. The Old Testament is history of our relationship with GOD. Prophecy about the coming of Jesus.

Of course it appears that there is a disconnect between the Old Testament and the GOOD NEWS of the New Testament!!

Where does it say that Jesus was or never was put on a cross in the Quran? Just because it doesn't say it doesn't mean it didn't exist befroe Uthamn burned the various copies or the separate copies of the companions wrtiings were lost. or was the verse lost in a battle when the Quran was memorized and not compiled into a book?

“You can't be the messenger of God and God at the same time”

Says who? All of humanity has limited minds. We can not begin to understand the fullness of who GOD is. I believe that Islam trys to define of who GOD is. They put GOD in a neat little package that we can understand, but that is too small of a package.

Why do we need to understand all that GOD is?

You don't make sense. It's like you run out of things to say and you even go beyond common logic!

Follower, time after time you prove that you have never read the Qur'an. Why oh why talk about something which you have not slightest clue of?

Allah says in al-Qur'an:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

There is not one of the People of the Scriptur but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them. [Surah An-Nisa 4:157-159]

Oh and also, Uthman never burned pages of the Qur'an...that's the misguided view of the Shia! Get your facts straight. It's unimaginable to think that a man who put his life on the line for Muhammad would change the religion once Muhammad passes away.

[GreyKode]

@Follower
Christians are the ones who keep "defining" GOD as they like (astaghfarullah).
God is Love.(Not really so in the OT)
God died for your sins.
God has yellow hair and white skin.

[جوري]

^^ ;D don't you love how the middle eastern 'god' has none but recessive traits?
I am through rebutting to that guy..

[Grace Seeker]

@Follower
Christians are the ones who keep "defining" GOD as they like (astaghfarullah).

God has yellow hair and white skin.

Who said that?

[GreyKode]

Who said that?

The movie "Passion of the christ".(Technically brown hair).
There's nothing wrong with him looking human since HE(pbuh) WAS A MAN.
But you see what this has done, the african christians depict him as black, the middle easterns say he looks middle eastern and ofcourse the europeans have their own version, since everyone wants "GOD" to look like them.
Not to mention how women are ******* because GOD was a man.
(Astaghfirullah).

[malayloveislam]

@Follower
God died for your sins.
God has yellow hair and white skin.

:D:D God has nationalistic/racial background connotation?

[Grace Seeker]

The movie "Passion of the christ".(Technically brown hair).
There's nothing wrong with him looking human since HE(pbuh) WAS A MAN.
But you see what this has done, the african christians depict him as black, the middle easterns say he looks middle eastern and ofcourse the europeans have their own version, since everyone wants "GOD" to look like them.
Not to mention how women are ******* because GOD was a man.
(Astaghfirullah).

I'm amazed on several levels.

1) One that movie never says any such thing. At best (or in this case worst) you inferred it for reasons wholly your own and not found in the movie itself.

2) That you would get your theology from a movie, or even some medieval painting, rather than the Bible.

3) That you would make a ridiculous comment about Christians claiming God looks such and such a way, when even you admit that in the movie you used to base that absurd comment, the actor playing Jesus don't actually look that way. Blonde and brown are hardly the same.

4) You then actually provide your own rebuttal saying that each different group of people portray Jesus in their own manner. If this is so, we obviously don't as a group say that God has any particular color of skin or hair.

5) Have you not noticed that in American films American actors play roles of all sorts of different nationalities? I once saw a movie in which Marlan Brando played a chinese character, that doesn't mean that anyone really thinks that chinese people look like fat Italian-Americans. And having an Italian-American playing the role of Jesus doesn't mean that we think he looks that way either. I'm not saying that no one has ever been so confused, but to say that Christians define God such, or we really think God has yellow hair and white skin, just isn't true. And to do it based on a movie simply shows your own prejudices against anything Christian for you aren't even taking the time to think rationally with regard to what is and isn't being portrayed by it.


If by such a statment you aren't really suggesting that Christians perceive God this way and are just being too subtle for me to understand, then speak clearer, please. For your present comment, were it not so outlandish as to be insulting, I might actually find funny.

[GreyKode]

1) One that movie never says any such thing. At best (or in this case worst) you inferred it for reasons wholly your own and not found in the movie itself.

What do you mean wholly my own? How do you explain all the paintings of Jesus(pbuh) with the very same features that I mentioned?
I want to ask you this Grace, Do you have a mental of perception of him as a man with certain physical features or not? And if so, how does he look like?

2) That you would get your theology from a movie, or even some medieval painting, rather than the Bible.

It isn't my theology, my theology and my beliefs are that he(pbuh) was a man and so it wouldn't really matter how he looked like. I was talking about how this anthromorphic identity imposed on God forced people to think of him in such a way(everybody wants God to look like them).

Finally you just contradicted youself :D

4) You then actually provide your own rebuttal saying that each different group of people portray Jesus in their own manner. If this is so, we obviously don't as a group say that God has any particular color of skin or hair.

Do you believe that God came down as a man or not? Did his disciples see him in so many different versions or did he have certain destinct features? Otherwise how would they recognize him?

So You see in the second quote, you crticized me for suggesting that all christians think he looked like the way I described him, and that biblically christians agree on the way he looks and but its different from my description. [He has distinct physical features].
which to me it makes sense since he was only a man, that's what we muslims believe.

In your third quote the bold part, suggests that christians do not claim any specific features for him, a varying version from one person to another. [He has no distinct physical features ].

[Grace Seeker]

What do you mean wholly my own? How do you explain all the paintings of Jesus(pbuh) with the very same features that I mentioned?

They aren't in the movie you mentioned!!! That's why I said that if you have that image your inferred it for reasons wholly your own -- such an image is not found in the movie, you had to have found it elsewhere.

Finally you just contradicted youself :D

How? I prefaced my comment by saying that if your presentation is true, then ...... If there is any contradition it is in that you in one place say that Christians present Jesus has having yellow hair and white skin (I ask for evidence, you name a movie where he has brown hair), you then go on to say that Africans and Chinese don't see him this way. That is evidence, from your own words, that Christians see him many different ways, not one particular way, i.e. as you initially claimed with yellow hair and white skin.

So, do you wish to revise your original statement? Or do you still maintain:

Christians are the ones who keep "defining" GOD as they like (astaghfarullah).

God has yellow hair and white skin.

Pehaps you didn't really mean this. Perhaps you meant something else? For instance, maybe your main point wasn't what you actually said, but what you just said above:

I was talking about how this anthromorphic identity imposed on God forced people to think of him in such a way(everybody wants God to look like them).

That's why I said that perhaps you were being too subtle by this reference and I didn't understand. So, either speak clearly and continue with what you have just said and we can have a rational discussion about it, OR retract your previous statement about yellow hair and white skin, for it is certainly ridiculous to claim that Christians actually imagine Jesus as having yellow hair and white skin. Not even the places you have cited portray him that way.

[GreyKode]

Grace, don't take me out of context.
My statement

Christians are the ones who keep "defining" GOD as they like (astaghfarullah).

God has yellow hair and white skin.

was in response to Follower when he said that Islam tends to define God and put him in a box and so on..

Anyway, I take the "yellow hair and white skin" description back, since it was only meant to be an example of one of the forms, of what I believe backed by evidence(several paintings), how christians perceive God .

why are you putting too much emphasis on my example about the movie. I just chose a random example.

But still you have to answer this question?
Did he or did he not have distinct human features from the christian perspective?

[Grace Seeker]

Grace, don't take me out of context.
My statement


was in response to Follower when he said that Islam tends to define God and put him in a box and so on..

Anyway, I take the "yellow hair and white skin" description back, since it was only meant to be an example of one of the forms, of what I believe backed by evidence(several paintings), how christians perceive God .

why are you putting too much emphasis on my example about the movie. I just chose a random example.

But still you have to answer this question?
Did he or did he not have distinct human features from the christian perspective?

And my apologies for not understanding that you were just using that as an example. I can be dense sometimes.

As to what I understnad is your large question, did Jesus have distinct human features? From the Christian perspective, most certainly. I don't know what those were, my guess is dark brown, perhaps even coarse black hair. Probably fairly brown skin, not black but certainly not white. Short, at least by our standards today. I say these things not because I know, but because they are generally descriptive of Jews of his day and region. I suppose he could have been tall, with long blonde hair, black skin, slanted eyes, and a round face.

But I also don't think it is important what he looked like, except to say that he looked like a human being. And as far as him being male, I don't even think that is especially important. I figure that there was a 50/50 chance of it, but 100% chance that he would be either male or female.

There is no doubt that both Islam and Christianity define God to a certain extent. We have different ways of defining God, but we both say he is like this and not like that. Just our "this" and "that" are different, but both still do define what is and is not true about the one they call God --or, at least we believe that God tells us who he is and then we share that which we believe to be true about him with others.

If you are intersted in exploring that idea further, there is a very interesting and classic book on the subject by J.B. Phillips, Your God Is Too Small, here in pdf format. It recognizes what you are talking about that Christians often do put God in a box of their own construction and say that this is who God is. Many times those constructs represent one little bit about God, they certainly don't represent his entire revelation of himself to us. But more than that, I think that if we are honest with ourselves we have to recognize that even if we were able to state all that God has revealed about himself to us, that even that description would be too small to fully describe the nature and character of who God is. The God of the universe cannot be confined to some small representation that fits our human mind. I think that perhaps Muslims actually get this concept better than many Christians, for Islam does its best to avoid limiting God. And yet, I suspect that simply by virtue of putting our human minds to the task of trying to saying something about God that we all fall into the trap. For what we cannot conceive of with regard to God, we naturally assume must not be true of God. And in this way I suspect that Muslims are just as likely to fall into the pitfall of thinking of God in ways that are too small and not worthy of his character as Chistians are. Most likely, given that Christians and Muslims have different ideas as to some aspects of God's nature, I would suspect the boxes that we each put God in are different, but I think it is human nature that all of us in the end put God into some type of box of our own making. The Christians' box just might be that the only way to God is through Jesus, and the Muslims' just might be that it cannot be that way at all. Wouldn't it be ironic if, precisely because we had put those limitations on who/what God could or could not be, we were both wrong and the answer to who God is was really all of the above? No, I don't understand how that could be, it initially sounds illogical, but that itself might be only because of the limitations of my mind that cannot conceive otherwise.

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Now that we are discussing Jesus’ deity, let me propose the following.

1. There is general harmony between the Old and New Testaments, and between the Gospels and the letters of Paul, in how Jesus is described.

2. This harmony extends between the Bible and the Qur'an in how Jesus is viewed.

Perhaps we can limit our sources of evidence to the Qur'an and the Bible as we had previously agreed. Also, since we are aware that there is conflict between Christian and Islamic religious tradition in how Jesus is viewed, perhaps we can try to seek the truth, wherever it may lie, rather than try to defend our respective religious traditions, which we already know will end in conflict.

Let us start with where there is agreement (balancing the marble on the table). Then let us try to identify the point of divergence by choosing the least contentious interpretation without damaging the integrity of the evidence.

Can we initially agree that both the Bible and the Qur'an teach that Jesus is the Messiah? Let us not try to use our religious traditions to interpret what this means. Can we just agree that Jesus is the Messiah in order to get the marble balanced?

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

we can agree on Jesus being the Messiah, if you will agree to those other Messiahs (anointed) from the bible

by Ahmad Deedat

The word CHRIST is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic-Masih. Root word m-a-s-a-h-a, meaning to rub, to massage, to anoint. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated, Grecian form "CHRIST", it seems unique:befitting Jesus only. The Christian has a knack of transmuting baser metals into shining gold. What he is wont to do is to translate names into his own language like "cephas" to Peter, "messiah" to Christ. How does he do that? Very easily MESSIAH in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is "christos". Just lop off the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ. Now change the little 'c' to a capital 'C', and "hey, presto!" he has created a unique (?) name! Christos means ANOINTED, and anointed means APPOINTED in its religious connotation. Jesus (pbuh) was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger.Every Prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew - made a "messiah". Let us keep to the English translation - "anointed." Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (christos-ed), but borns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.

I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar.....

Genesis 31:13

If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin....

Leviticus 4:3

And Moses....ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein...

Leviticus 8:10

...THE LORD SHALL....EXALT THE HORN OF HIS ANOINTED

1 Samuel 2:10

Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus....

Isaiah 45:1

Thou art the ANOINTED cherub....

Ezekiel 28:14

There are a hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Everytime you come across the word ANOINTED in your English Bible, you can take it that that word would be christos in the Greek translations, and if you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians have done, you will have - Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ Pillar, etc.
SOME TITLES EXCLUSIVE

Although, every prophet of God is an ANOINTED one of God - a Messiah, the title "Masih" or "Messiah" or its translation "CHRIST" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific title which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasul-lullah", meaning Messenger of God, which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasul-lullah" has become synonymous only with the Prophet of Islam among Muslims.
Every prophet is indeed a FRIEND OF GOD, but its Arabic equivalent "Kha- lil-lullah" is exclusively associated with Father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kalimul-lah" (One who spoke with God) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His Messengers, including Jesus and Muhummed (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon all His servants). Associating certain titles with certain personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.

[Grace Seeker]

Can we initially agree that both the Bible and the Qur'an teach that Jesus is the Messiah?

I can agree that the Qur'an mentions Jesus as a Messiah and that the New Testament also uses the term with respect to Jesus. (However, I think you are going to have trouble further proceeding down this line as I don't think that you will find the OT and the NT in complete agreement with each other as to what their understanding of "messiahship" meant.)

[Walter]

OK Gossamer & Seeker:

Let us then agree that Jesus was unique in that He was born of a virgin. Can we start there then?

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

yup!

[Grace Seeker]

yup!

Me too.

[Walter]

Well then.

There are three issues about Jesus which the Qur’an appears to explicitly reject. The first is the concept of Jesus being the Son of God, the second is the concept that Jesus being part of a trinity, and the third is the concept of Jesus being God. Let us discuss these issues one at a time, starting with Jesus being the Son of God.

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of God. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. God fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside God their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner! (9:30–31)

Clearly, the Qur’an rejects the concept of God having a Son. However, Jesus repeatedly stated that He is the Son of God. Even God Himself declared:

“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” (Matthew 17:5b)

Now we have a choice. We can stop there and declare that there is conflict, which is the Islamic and Christian traditional response, or we can examine whether a harmonious interpretation can be found that does not damage the integrity of either the Bible or the Qur’an. Since we want to keep the marble balanced, let us proceed with the latter.

Again, let us limit our discussion to the concept of the Son of God. We will address the trinity and Jesus being God later. The Qur’an appears to reveal a measure of anger and frustration in reacting to the Son of God concept. See below.

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not "Three"—Cease! (it is) better for you!—God is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender. (4:171)

The reaction to this concept in the Qur’an shows that it is highly offensive. Why would it be so highly offensive? Well, let us examine some critical evidence.

Yet they make the Jinns equals with God, though God did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (He is) above what they attribute to Him! To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things. (6:100–101)

So the concept was so offensive because God having a son was consequential to Him having a sexual relationship with a consort. This was a common concept in the region, for it was how the Greek and Roman gods compounded and got sons and daughters.

The Qur’an explicitly rejects the idea of God having a wife, and any entity resulting from such a union. The Bible also rejects the concept of ‘Son of God’ as described in the Qur’an. Actually, I do not believe that there is a single Christian alive today who also does not find the very idea of the Son of God as described in the Qur’an as offensive as Mohammed found it.

Therefore, it appears that the Qur’an was not addressing the concept of ‘Son of God’ as presented in the Bible, but rather, the concept of gods compounding through sexual intercourse with a consort, as was the religious traditional knowledge in the region. It should be noted that missionaries from unorthodox ‘Christian’ groups, with similar teachings, were in the region spreading such teachings that are unsupported by both the Bible and the Qur’an.

Regards,
Grenville

[Imam]

Hi Grenville

The last part of 5:110 states: “I did restrain the Children of Israel from thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”This passage does provide evidence that God did not allow the children of Israel to harm Jesus. However, the context of the verse appears to support the interpretation that the Jews tried to harm Jesus because of His earlier miracles and teachings, rather than later events surrounding His death.

First:

I disagree that the verse gives the impression that God's protection for Jesus from the Jews was only avilable in his earlier days in his mission ,the verse suggests not only a full protection anytime they thought to hurt him but also the verse put such (protection) in the last part ... and what is that a clue for?

read the verse again:
5:110 Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold!
1- I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold!
2-I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold!
3- thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold!
4-I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.

The verse mentions the basic story lines of Jesus peace be upon him,
1-Birth
2-message
3-miracles
4-rejection
5-protection

as you see ,protection came as the last of the basic lines in his life...

Second:

The Bible provides several examples where the Jews tried to harm Jesus
because of His sayings and miracles.

yes true ...and they (according to the NT)finally succeeded in their plot to crucify him!...

Peter To the Sanhedrin, announced, "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you(Jews) had put to death by hanging Him on a cross" (Acts 5:30).

Speaking in the house of Cornelius, Peter says, "We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on wood" (Acts 10:39).

Paul Said 1 Thessalonians 2:15You suffered the same persecutions from the people of your own country as they did from those Jews who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets,


The Jews indeed,and according to the New Testament succeeded finally to harm Jesus while in the Quran they never succeeded to do so.

Third:

The act of protection described in the verse, is included among such things God favored and blessed Jesus with, any time you negate the protection you have to negate the bless too....

Fourth:

IF the source of the Quran(God for Muslims) believed in a Roman crucifiction the verse should been as “and their saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was the Romans who did so.

Fifth:

and most important IF the source of the Quran believed in a Roman crucifiction and chose not to mention it and whether is there a significance of it,and instead affirms the formula of attaining heaven (good works) versus (blood atonments) means without doubt that the crucifiction for him is a trivial incident with zero significance and that contradicts the NT....

Can we initially agree that both the Bible and the Qur'an teach that
Jesus is the Messiah? Can we just agree that Jesus is the Messiah

No ,we can't ...not because the Biblical view of the promised messiah differs from the Quran in some aspect ,but the whole Biblical Messianic structure is totally(from A to Z indeed) absent from the Quran (more details may be discussed later inshAllah) .


To sum up

we have only one way to continue the discussion on this point(the crucifiction) is to harmonize both the NT and the Quran in the concept blood for sin (blood atonement) otherwise ..... let's continue with another issue..


peace

[Banu_Hashim]

Clearly, the Qur’an rejects the concept of God having a Son. However, Jesus repeatedly stated that He is the Son of God. Even God Himself declared:

“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” (Matthew 17:5b)

When in Christianity, Christians say God said something, what is the belief of how it was transmitted? To me, it looks like the author of this quote is Matthew. I understand the Gospel was written many years after the death of Jesus (peace be upon him), so how do Christians know Jesus himself professed him being the son of God?

[AntiKarateKid]

Jesus is the son of God Grenville? Well then, let's look at his brothers in divinity shall we?


Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.

Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.

Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).

Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.

Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2[/B]

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

I disagree that the verse gives the impression that God's protection for Jesus from the Jews was only available in his earlier days in his mission ,the verse suggests not only a full protection anytime they thought to hurt him but also the verse put such (protection) in the last part ... and what is that a clue for?

read the verse again:

Yes Imam, let us read the relevant part of the verse again.

I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' 5:110

I believe that the verse can be interpreted to mean that God protected Jesus from the Jews when He performed miracles on the Sabbath, which violated their religious traditions. See the example below.

Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."

Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent. He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus. (Mark 3:1-5)

Islamic tradition interprets this verse to mean that God protected Jesus from all types of harm. Let us put aside our beliefs for a moment and read what the verse actually states.

I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee WHEN ..

When what?

WHEN thou didst show them the clear Signs ..

For this to be in harmony with the Bible, then the clear signs would be what the Bible calls miracles. What was the unbelievers' response?

and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

The Bible records similar dismissive statements by the Jews.

As they went out, behold, they brought to Him a man, mute and demon-possessed. And when the demon was cast out, the mute spoke. And the multitudes marveled, saying, “It was never seen like this in Israel!” But the Pharisees said, “He casts out demons by the ruler of the demons.” (Matthew 9:32-34)

It should be noted that Jesus did not perform any miracles, or "clear signs" during his death and resurrection according to the Bible. Therefore, the interpretation that 5:110 does not include the Crucifixion is reasonable, and does not damage any evidence in the Bible and the Qur'an.

Regards,
Grenville

[Follower]

Abd-al - I agree the Quran says that the Jews did not kill or crucify Jesus, nothing more. Docetism is a Christian heresy believing that Jesus had only an apparent body. Did Mohammad believe this?

What is the purpose of the sacrifice story with Abraham? What was the momentous sacrifice given by GOD- the ram?!?

When the Quran was revealed did all the verses from one chapter revealed at once or was it piecemeal, a few verses at a time? I know the chapters were compiled later, when were the verses placed into each chapter?

Banu read a bit further-
Matthew17
5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

GOD said this, the disciples heard it and either wrote about it or passed it directly onto the person that wrote Matthew in 70-90AD. In the Holy Bible there are always eyewitnesses to events.

Can we all agree that Jesus is GOD's WORD incarnate?

Kalimatuhu: God's Word 3:45, 4:171

The word "kalimatuhu" is God's personal word which exists from eternity and is uncreated. Being eternal would also imply that Jesus is both distinct from God,eternally inseperable from God and thus God by nature.

[GreyKode]

Being eternal would also imply that Jesus is both distinct from God,eternally inseperable from God and thus God by nature.

Does anyone else find this :enough!::enough!:

Youre trying to make it sound logical

here's what youre saying

1)A is not B

2) A (contained in) B

3)Thus A is B and not B at the same time.

[Walter]

Hi AKK:

Jesus is the son of God Grenville? Well then, let's look at his brothers in divinity shall we?

Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.

Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.

etc, etc

Very good AKK. So we are agreed. The Qur'an definately does not address the concept or concepts of Son of God as defined in the Bible.

Regards,
Grenville

[GreyKode]

Grenville cut the the BS... OK!

Your not making sense,

“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” (Matthew 17:5b)

What DOES SON MEAN?????

Spiritual son? then read AKKs post.

Biological son? then refer to what you said

Actually, I do not believe that there is a single Christian alive today who also does not find the very idea of the Son of God as described in the Qur’an as offensive as Mohammed found it.

plus don't come here assuming prophet muhammed(pbuh) was the author of the Qur'an and then say we want to balance the marble on the table.
You are refusing the Islamic tradition interpretation and we for the sake of argument have agreed to that, but then you keep making up your own baseless interpretations :

Therefore, it appears that the Qur’an was not addressing the concept of ‘Son of God’ as presented in the Bible, but rather, the concept of gods compounding through sexual intercourse with a consort, as was the religious traditional knowledge in the region. It should be noted that missionaries from unorthodox ‘Christian’ groups, with similar teachings, were in the region spreading such teachings that are unsupported by both the Bible and the Qur’an.

And where does the bible contradict this idea or even clarify the concept of son as you explained.

[Walter]

Does anyone else find this :enough!::enough!:

Hold on Grey Kode. We have not even started to discuss your concerns. Please be patient.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Dear Banu:

When in Christianity, Christians say God said something, what is the belief of how it was transmitted? To me, it looks like the author of this quote is Matthew. I understand the Gospel was written many years after the death of Jesus (peace be upon him), so how do Christians know Jesus himself professed him being the son of God?

The quotation recorded by Matthew, a disciple of Jesus, is that God declared that Jesus was His beloved Son. This account is corroborated by the accounts recorded by Mark and Luke. Hence, Christians have a high level of confidence that the corroborated accounts are accurate.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

"Israel is my son, even my firstborn." II Samuel 7:14 and I Chronicles 22:10: "...and he shall be my son (Solomon)." Jeremiah 31:9: "...and Ephraim is my firstborn." Also, Psalm 2:7.


would the real son of God pls take your place in the beginning of the line? Seems 'God' has many kids?

[YusufNoor]

Dear Banu:


The quotation recorded by Matthew, a disciple of Jesus,

THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE!

is that God declared that Jesus was His beloved Son. This account is corroborated by the accounts recorded by Mark and Luke.

THAT'S NOT TRUE EITHER!

Hence, Christians have a high level of confidence that the corroborated accounts are accurate.

they have a high level of something alright! but TRUTH isn't it!

Regards,
Grenville

OH goody, we get to do this again!

there's NO EVIDENCE that Mathew wrote Mathew! EVEN "Christian" Scholars acknowledge that! regarding Mathew:

btw, QUOTE: From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 1994: Howard Clarke Kee, in his introduction to the Gospel According to Matthew in the section titled: Authorship. From the 2nd Century down to the present, Christians have believed that the first gospel in the NT was also the first to be written and that the author was Matthew the tax collector, a disciple of Jesus. The source of this persistent belief can be traced back as far as circa A.D. 130, when Papias, a bishop in Hierapolis, a city in Asia Minor, wrote a work titled “Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord.” His writing, which is known only from fragments quoted by later Christian writers, reports that Matthew, the disciple, compiled the sayings of the Lord in Hebrew. Those that have quoted Papias seem to have accepted his statement without question as referring to the First gospel.

There are several difficulties with this assumption, however. (a) The gospel consists of a rather full account of Jesus’ public ministry, not merely a series of sayings. (b) Detailed analysis of Matthew shows that the author used Mark as one of his sources. (c) Mark and therefore Matthew, for which Mark was a source were written in Greek, not Hebrew. In view of these difficulties, it is plausible to assume that Papias was referring, not to Matthew, as we know it, but perhaps to a now lost collection of sayings of Jesus.

If we do not accept Papias’ theory, then we must acknowledge that we have no evidence for the origin of Matthew and no assurance of the author’s name. The gospel itself makes no such claim; indeed all the gospels are anonymous. Later tradition has attached names for convenience, but we should recognize that authority of the writings rested in the power of the message, not in the personal authority of the author. END QUOTE

so to summerize, ALL the Gospels were anonymous and the names were given mainly for convenience. Matthew MAY have been the author of "Q", that sounds reasonable however in light of the other information

so much for confidence, eh?


:w:

[Walter]

Hi Yusuf Noor:

OH goody, we get to do this again!

there's NO EVIDENCE that Mathew wrote Mathew! EVEN "Christian" Scholars acknowledge that!

OK Yusuf, let us call it the Gospel attributed to Matthew. The infromation is corroborated in the accounts of the Gospels attributed to Mark and Luke.

There are several difficulties with this assumption, however. (a) The gospel consists of a rather full account of Jesus’ public ministry, not merely a series of sayings.

So what?

(b) Detailed analysis of Matthew shows that the author used Mark as one of his sources.

I have not found this to be true. Have you Yusuf?

(c) Mark and therefore Matthew, for which Mark was a source were written in Greek, not Hebrew. In view of these difficulties, it is plausible to assume that Papias was referring, not to Matthew, as we know it, but perhaps to a now lost collection of sayings of Jesus.

This assertion cannot be verified. Therefore, it is in the realm of speculative opinion, which you appear quite willing to promote as a fact.

"we should recognize that authority of the writings rested in the power of the message, not in the personal authority of the author."

so much for confidence, eh?

As the author noted, we have confidence in the message Yusuf.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi GK:

What DOES SON MEAN?????

Spiritual son? then read AKKs post.

Biological son? then refer to what you said

What does the Biblical concept mean? Well, there is insufficient evidence in the Bible to conclusively state what it means, and for me to start speculating what it means here would throw us into an unnecessary religious traditional tangent from which we may not recover. However, there is sufficient evinced to state what it does not mean. It does not mean that Jesus is the result of a sexual union between God and a consort. Hence, there is harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an on that point.
Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

what is Jesus' mother tongue.. I am curious about his most fundamental attributes?
is a full list of saying known to his followers?
have scholars agreed on what tongue those sayings have been uttered in?

Among the guesswork of early scholars in this regard, we have: a Galilean dialect of Chaldaic (J.J.Scaliger); Syriac (claude Saumaise); the dialect of Onkelos and Johnathan (Brian Walton); Greek (vossius); Hebrew (Delitzsch and Resch); Aramiac (Meyer), and even Latin. (Inchofer, for ''the Lord Cannot have used any other language upon earth, since this is the language of the saints in heaven'')
Schweitzer, PP 271, 275

let's start with that before the 'confidence in the message'
what say you?

[BlackMamba]

Hi GK:



What does the Biblical concept mean? Well, there is insufficient evidence in the Bible to conclusively state what it means, and for me to start speculating what it means here would throw us into an unnecessary religious traditional tangent from which we may not recover. However, there is sufficient evinced to state what it does not mean. It does not mean that Jesus is the result of a sexual union between God and a consort. Hence, there is harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an on that point.
Regards,
Grenville

How can a Christian that reads the Bible like you not even know the fundamental beliefs of his/her own religion? This definitely seems like a problem, not with you, but with the religion itself. You (and probably most Christians) do not even know what Jesus is. Christians do not know if he was just another "son of god" (as several people in bible are labeled) or an actual biological son of god. And this is one of the main topcis of the religion! Christians dont know who to pray to now. How can a religion with this much confusion be correct?
And back to the thread topic, how can we show 2 books are harmonious when we do not even know what one of them is talking about. We, according to you, cannot gather sufficient proof from the Bible to tell whether Jesus was a son of god or a "son of god". Wow.

[YusufNoor]

Hi Yusuf Noor:

OK Yusuf, let us call it the Gospel attributed to Matthew. The infromation is corroborated in the accounts of the Gospels attributed to Mark and Luke.

again, QUOTE:indeed all the gospels are anonymous. Later tradition has attached names for convenience: END QUOTE; as you say later, the AUTHORSHIP AS WELL AS THE CONTENTS ARE QUOTE: in the realm of speculative opinion, which you appear quite willing to promote as a fact. END QUOTE

conclusion, your ENTIRE Religion is based upon speculative opinion, which you appear quite willing to promote as fact!

So what?

the document, which only exists in fragments and is used to "verify" Matthew, DOES NOT ACTUALLY verify Matthew! but i understand the "so what?", you simply don't care if you believe in a ruse or not.

I have not found this to be true. Have you Yusuf?

oh please, inform us of your efforts to verify the "unknown author" is a source for the "unknown author!" or did you just lie because you don't want to believe it?

This assertion cannot be verified. Therefore, it is in the realm of speculative opinion, which you appear quite willing to promote as a fact.

actually, you just described your entire Religion. ONLY what the Qur'a, confirms can be verified!

As the author noted, we have confidence in the message Yusuf.

Regards,
Grenville

then we must acknowledge that we have no evidence for the origin of Matthew and no assurance of the author’s name. The gospel itself makes no such claim; indeed all the gospels are anonymous. Later tradition has attached names for convenience, but we should recognize that authority of the writings rested in the power of the message, not in the personal authority of the author

that ABSOLUTELY defines Christianity! you have no source, but you like the message, for convenience...

:w:

[Walter]

Hi Gossamer & Yusuf Noor:

The study started by assuming that both the Bible and the Qur’an were correct. By now, you must be aware that you cannot convince a Christian that the Bible is incorrect, and no-one can convince a Muslim that the Qur’an is incorrect. Therefore, why go down a road that we all know will certainly lead to conflict?

If you really want that discussion, then I would be happy to engage you. I believe that the evidence for the Bible being authentic is abundant, while the evidence for the authenticity of the Qur’an is vulnerable to criticism. However, why would you want us to waste time rehashing the same familiar arguments, when we are both painfully aware of the outcome?

Therefore, for the purposes of this discussion, arguing about the language that Jesus spoke, and trying to authenticate the author of Matthew, is irrelevant.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Shakoor:

How can a Christian that reads the Bible like you not even know the fundamental beliefs of his/her own religion? This definitely seems like a problem, not with you, but with the religion itself. You (and probably most Christians) do not even know what Jesus is.

I am aware of the fundamentals of both Christianity and Islam. It seems that you wish Christians to include ‘the process of how Jesus came to be the Son of God’ in their category of fundamentals. I am sorry Shakoor. That is unnecessary. Since the Bible does not explicitly state how Jesus came to be the Son of God, then your opinion is just as valid as mine, provided that we do not damage any of the evidence in the Bible.

Shakoor, the history of the Church is filled with periods where some Christian religious leaders had decided that their speculative opinion had to be an obligatory belief. Those who held alternate beliefs which were supported by the Bible were tortured, had their property confiscated, and murdered. That is what can result when a religious leader feels pressured to provide a conclusive explanation to an issue in which there is insufficient evidence. You should therefore desist from that practise.

There is abundant evidence in the Bible, which is harmonious with the teachings in the Qur’an, about who Jesus is. We know that He is unlike other men in that He was born of the virgin Mary without a human father. The Qur’an teaches that Jesus is not a product of a sexual union with God and a consort. So far the harmony remains. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, but does not define the actual process. The Qur’an refers the reader to believe the revelation in the Gospel; therefore harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an remains.

Next. Let us examine the truth about the Trinity, for which the study found harmony between teachings of the Qur’an and the Bible.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

I really don't think you want to go down the road of authenticity of the bible or even remotely compare it to that of the Quran, I promise you, you and your bible wouldn't stand a chance.. secondly if the bible can be compared to anything at all, it would be the hadith, and even they come with a hefty chain of Isnad, something the bible fails to afford with its anonymous writers.
The Quran is out of your league!

and you are right, there is nothing to engage, I have wondered the frivolity of this thread early in.. you need not stand at page 16 to conclude there is no Harmony. The mythos that is the man/god falls to pieces with mere common sense, let alone the contradiction that is the bible (against its own self)

all the best

[BlackMamba]

Hi Shakoor:



I am aware of the fundamentals of both Christianity and Islam. It seems that you wish Christians to include ‘the process of how Jesus came to be the Son of God’ in their category of fundamentals. I am sorry Shakoor. That is unnecessary. Since the Bible does not explicitly state how Jesus came to be the Son of God, then your opinion is just as valid as mine, provided that we do not damage any of the evidence in the Bible.

Shakoor, the history of the Church is filled with periods where some Christian religious leaders had decided that their speculative opinion had to be an obligatory belief. Those who held alternate beliefs which were supported by the Bible were tortured, had their property confiscated, and murdered. That is what can result when a religious leader feels pressured to provide a conclusive explanation to an issue in which there is insufficient evidence. You should therefore desist from that practise.

There is abundant evidence in the Bible, which is harmonious with the teachings in the Qur’an, about who Jesus is. We know that He is unlike other men in that He was born of the virgin Mary without a human father. The Qur’an teaches that Jesus is not a product of a sexual union with God and a consort. So far the harmony remains. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, but does not define the actual process. The Qur’an refers the reader to believe the revelation in the Gospel; therefore harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an remains.

Next. Let us examine the truth about the Trinity, for which the study found harmony between teachings of the Qur’an and the Bible.

Regards,
Grenville

Wow ok ok it seems like you misunderstood me. All I'm saying is that you cannot even conclude from the Bible whether Jesus was actually a son of god meaning the trinity thing you guys got going. Like the father, the son, the spirit. Or if Jesus was just another "son of god" like one of the 70+ people in the bible. (Example "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.)
And yes this is a fundamental part of the religion, how can it not be. It's about whether your god is the real son of god or just a "son of god" like the many mentioned in the bible.

And please do not try to harmonize Islam with Christianity. Even though the Bible doesnt really explicitly mention the trinity, christians that have been studying the bible their whole lives accept the trinity so the bible must have some verse that makes you guys base your whole religion on it.
So assuming the trinity is mentioned somewhere in the bible, there is really no harmony.
Read surah 112 Al-Ikhlas
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. (5:72)


If you still somehow thing there is harmony, then there is something in Psychology called Confirmation Bias. Studies show that we tend to look for evidence that confirms our beliefs and ignore evidence that contradicts what we believe to be true. The Confirmation Bias often leads to a person finding the wrong solution because of ignoring evidence. This is what you are going through.

[Walter]

i Shakoor:

... And please do not try to harmonize Islam with Christianity. ... So assuming the trinity is mentioned somewhere in the bible, there is really no harmony.

Let me first respond to your assertions.

1. I have repeatedly stated that Islamic and Christian religious traditions are in conflict.

2. You are correct in assuming what is in the Bible. However, please note that your assumption is completely incorrect. I am sympathetic to your dilemma. Like most Muslims, you have not actually read the Bible. Instead, you have listened to what others have told you what they think that Christians believe, rather than what the Bible actually states. We Christians are in the same stupid boat. We bluntly refuse to read the Qur’an, but are eager to listen to our teachers tell us about what they think that Muslims believe, rather than what is actually contained in the Qur’an.

Now let us examine this issue of the trinity.

The Qur’an responds to a trinity of 'mother, father and son', or 'father, wife, adn son'. This is related to the Qur’an’s rejection of the concept of a son arising out of a sexual union with a wife. This concept of the trinity was being taught in the region. However, this concept is not supported by the Bible nor the Qur’an, so the marble remains on the table. We shall examine the Biblical concept when we look at the issue of Jesus being God.

Regards.

[Grace Seeker]

what is Jesus' mother tongue..

Given that Jesus didn't write anything, that is hardly a relevant question.

You speak more than one language; if I remember correctly, English is NOT your native language. Yet, don't you think that if you were to observe a fellow doctor who speaks your native tongue perform a surgery, you could not only write a report on that surgery, but you could write it in English? Your report would not have to be in the doctor's native tongue, because you are fully capable of writing in English that which you have observed without regard to the languages spoke by the others in the operating room. The story would be true because you are able to write in English and you would write the truth. In fact, the language of the doctor who performed the surgery would be totally irrelevant to the veracity of your telling of the event.

In the same way, the language of Jesus is totally irrelevant to the Matthew's (or any Gospel writer's) narrative of Jesus' actions that are announced by the Gospel writers as good news for mankind.

[جوري]

Given that Jesus didn't write anything, that is hardly a relevant question.

You speak more than one language; if I remember correctly, English is NOT your native language. Yet, don't you think that if you were to observe a fellow doctor who speaks your native tongue perform a surgery, you could not only write a report on that surgery, but you could write it in English? Your report would not have to be in the doctor's native tongue, because you are fully capable of writing in English that which you have observed without regard to the languages spoke by the others in the operating room. The story would be true because you are able to write in English and you would write the truth. In fact, the language of the doctor who performed the surgery would be totally irrelevant to the veracity of your telling of the event.

In the same way, the language of Jesus is totally irrelevant to the Matthew's (or any Gospel writer's) narrative of Jesus' actions that are announced by the Gospel writers as good news for mankind.

If the words of God aren't relevant then what is? We are not talking a mere operation which can as well be demonstrated in diagrams if all else fails. We are talking the focus and objective God has for the world he created.. you are here, and this is what I want from you..
Given that saul has done away with most of the rituals of the OT rendering you singing to the organ and praying before statues, I am not surprised that, what god said and in what tongue matters not!


all the best

[BlackMamba]

i Shakoor:





Now let us examine this issue of the trinity.

The Qur’an responds to a trinity of 'mother, father and son', or 'father, wife, adn son'. This is related to the Qur’an’s rejection of the concept of a son arising out of a sexual union with a wife. This concept of the trinity was being taught in the region. However, this concept is not supported by the Bible nor the Qur’an, so the marble remains on the table. We shall examine the Biblical concept when we look at the issue of Jesus being God.

Regards.

So the trinity as son, father, and spirit or wife is not in the Bible. What? then how come all the christians around the world believe in that. How can all Christians believe what is not in their holy book? That doesn't sound right to me.
And assuming that the trinity you accept doesnt have God having a biological son, then there is still a HUGE disparity between Bible and Quran. Even if there is no sexual relation and no biological son, there are still partners being set up with Allah. You are still associating partners by making him 1 out of 3. Allah doesnt have 1/3 power, he has infinite power. If you have actually been reading the ayahs from the Quran that I and others have been posting then you would see that the Quran is 100% against shrik(associating partners with Allah).

"Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust." (5:72) translated by Shakir.

"Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. " (4:48) Allah will forgive anything EXCEPT shirk(associating partners with Allah).

[naseem]

Miracles of Jesus (Isa A.S) from the Holy Quraan

Then came the time, when the angels said (to Mary), “O Mary, Allah has exalted you and purified you and chosen you for His service in preference to all the women of the world. O Mary, be obedient to your Lord, prostrate yourself before Him and bow down with those who bow down in worship.”

(O Muhammad,) these are the “unseen” things We are revealing to you: you were not present when they were casting lots by throwing their quills to decide which of them should be the guardian of Mary; nor were you with them when they were arguing about it.

And remember when the angels said, “O Mary, Allah sends you the good news of a Command of His: his name shall be Messiah, Jesus son of Mary. He will be highly honored in this world and in the Next World and he will be among those favored by Allah. He will speak to the people alike in the cradle and when grown up, and he will be among the righteous.” Hearing this (Mary) said, “How, o Lord, shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me?”
“Thus shall it be,” was the answer. Allah creates whatever He wills. When He decrees a thing, He only says, “Be” and it is. (Continuing their message, the angels added,) “And Allah will teach him the Book and wisdom, and give him the knowledge of the Torah and the Gospel, and appoint him as His Messenger to the children of Israel.”

(And when he came as a Messenger to the children of Israel, he said,) “I have come to you with a clear Sign from your Lord: in your very presence, I make the likeness of a bird out of clay and breathe into it and it becomes, by Allah’s Command, a bird. I heal those born blind and the lepers and I bring to life the dead by Allah’s Command; I inform you of what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Surely there is a great Sign for you in all this, if you have mind to believe. And I have come to confirm those teachings of the Guidance of the Torah which are intact in my time. Lo! I have come with a clear Sign from your Lord; so fear Allah and obey me. Indeed Allah is my Lord, and also your Lord; therefore worship Him alone: that is the straight way” (The Holy Quraan, chapter Aali-Imran, English translation of verses 42 – 51).


And (O Muhammad,) relate in this Book the story of Mary: how she had retired in seclusion from her people to the eastern side and had hung down a screen to hide herself from them. There We sent to her Our Spirit (“an angel”) and he appeared before her in the form of a perfect man.

(Mary) cried out involuntarily, “I seek God’s refuge from you, if you are a pious man.”

He replied, “I am a mere messenger from your Lord and have been sent to give you a pure son.”

(Mary) said, “How can I bear a son, when no man has touched me, and I am not an unchaste woman?”

The angel replied, “So shall it be. Your Lord says, ‘this is an easy thing for Me to do, and We will do so in order to make that boy a Sign for the people and a blessing from Us, and this must happen’.”

Accordingly, (Mary) conceived the child, and with it she went away to a distant place. Then the throes of childbirth urged her to take shelter under a date palm. There she began to cry, “Oh! Would that I had died before this and sunk into oblivion.” At this the angel at the foot of her bed consoled her, saying, “grieve not at all, for your Lord has set a spring under you; as for your food, shake the trunk of this tree and fresh, ripe dates will fall down for you; so eat and drink and refresh your eyes; and if you see a man, say to him, ‘As I have vowed to observe the fast (of silence) for the sake of the Merciful, I will not speak to anyone today’.”

Then she brought the child to her people. They said, “O Mary! This is a heinous sin that you have committed. O sister of Aaron! Your father was not a wicked man, nor was your mother an unchaste woman.”

(In answer to this) Mary merely pointed towards the infant. The people said, “How shall we talk with him, who is but an infant in the cradle?”

Whereupon the child spoke out, “I am a servant of Allah: He has given me the Book and He has appointed me a Prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I may be. He has enjoined upon me to offer Salat (prayer) and to give Zakat (charity) so long as I shall live. He has made me dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me oppressive and hard-hearted. Peace be upon me on the day I was born and peace shall be on me on the day I die and on the day I am raised to life.”

This is Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth about him concerning which they are in doubt. It does not behove God to beget a son for He is far above this. When He decrees a thing, He only says, “Be,” and it does come into being.

(And Jesus had declared) “Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him; this is the Right Way.” But in spite of this, the sects began to have differences among themselves. So those who adopted the ways of disbelief shall suffer a horrible woe, when they witness the Great Day. On that Day when they shall appear before Us, their ears and their eyes shall become very sharp, but today these transgressors (neither hear nor see the Truth and) have strayed into manifest deviation. (O Muhammad,) now that these people are not paying heed and are not believing, warn them of the horrors of the Day, when judgment shall be passed, and they will have nothing left for them but vain regret. Ultimately, We will inherit the Earth and all that is on it, and everyone shall be returned to Us. (the Holy Quraan, Chapter Maryam Verses 16 – 40 (English Translation).

[Grace Seeker]

So the trinity as son, father, and spirit or wife is not in the Bible. What? then how come all the christians around the world believe in that.

Christians do believe that God exists in Trinity. But what you understand the Trinity to be referring to is simply NOT what Christians mean when we speak of Trinity.

And assuming that the trinity you accept doesnt have God having a biological son, then there is still a HUGE disparity between Bible and Quran.

YES!! You are correct. There IS a HUGE disparity between the Bible and the Quran. Muslims often tell me that Christians believe XYZ because the Qur'an has told them that we Christians believe those things, when in fact XYZ are not beliefs that Christians actually hold in real life.

Even if there is no sexual relation and no biological son, there are still partners being set up with Allah. You are still associating partners by making him 1 out of 3.

Or at least this is what the Qur'an tells you. The same book that tells you that Christians think of the Trinity as being God, Mary, and Jesus -- which you are now learning is not actually how Christians understand the Trinity.

Allah doesnt have 1/3 power, he has infinite power.

Exactly!! And there is no teaching Christianity which would assign anything less than infinite power to God -- save that he gives people free will to follow or not follow him for themselves and he will not force them in against their will.

If you have actually been reading the ayahs from the Quran that I and others have been posting then you would see that the Quran is 100% against shrik(associating partners with Allah).

"Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust." (5:72) translated by Shakir.

"Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. " (4:48) Allah will forgive anything EXCEPT shirk(associating partners with Allah).

We do know that this is what the Qur'an teaches. Did you know that it is only Muslims who see Christians as practicing shirk. That when you understand Christian teaching from a Christian perspective that we do not associate partners with God, for God is just one in the Christian mind. Others say that we have three gods, but we claim to worship only one God. Nor do we claim any partners for God, save that all humanity is supposed to partner with God by submitting themselves to his will in their individual life. But do not Muslims believe the same in that regard. The Christian worship of Jesus is not the worship of a second god, a lesser god, a lower god, or another god. It is the worship of THE one God who we believe became incarnate and dwelled among us, and yet is not so limited in his power and scope that he could not at the same time be present any and everywhere that he was before the incarnation in exactly the same way as he had always been, and yet he is still just the ONE God, infinite in his being.

[BlackMamba]

If Jesus and god are the same thing then why do you call it a trinity. Trinity implies 3 kinda like lord of the rings trinity. And if Jesus n god are the same thing how can one be the son?! You can't keep redefining the word son to match your beliefs

[GreyKode]

Grace,
The main problem is the presence of the mutually exclusive persons, Son and Father.

How can he be Son and Father at the same time. Are you and your son one in the same?
If they are the same then why is there a need for the definition of a Son. Why not just father and ok holy spirit, but the problem is with SON!!.

[Grace Seeker]

Grace,
The main problem is the presence of the mutually exclusive persons, Son and Father.

How can he be Son and Father at the same time. Are you and your son one in the same?
If they are the same then why is there a need for the definition of a Son. Why not just father and ok holy spirit, but the problem is with SON!!.

Right, I know this the major problem that not just Muslims but all disbelievers in the Trinity have with the concept it presents. And that is why, to answer Shakoor's question, when discussing the Trinity with people who have questions about it that I find it most helpful to focus on the question as you just formulated it.

If Jesus and god are the same thing then why do you call it a trinity. Trinity implies 3 kinda like lord of the rings trinity. And if Jesus n god are the same thing how can one be the son?! You can't keep redefining the word son to match your beliefs

I'm not redefining anything. But just to be clear, the three that we in the Christian church are speaking of when referencing the Trinity are:
1) the Father
2) the Son
3) the Holy Spirit
who we believe are three distinct persons, but just one being. Further we believe that one being is GOD. Why do we believe that? Because we believe that the Bible was true when it said that there is one and only one God. On that we agree with Judaism and Islam.

Why do we then identify the Father, the Son, and the Spirt each as God? Because we also believe the Bible to be true when it tells us that the disciples of Jesus experienced encountering God in each of these persons.

Doesn't that mean you have three gods? No. Because they are not independent beings. They are three distinct persona of the one being and that being is who God is.

Therefore, in reflecting on these apparent contradictions and trying to make sense of the clear proclamation of God's oneness that is in scripture and the clear experiences of God in each of these individual persons that they also recorded in scipture, the church reached an understanding that both had to be true at the same time. There were dissenters to that idea, but that idea nevertheless was the idea that won the day. God is one, but he exists and makes himself known to us in these three different persons who have manifested themselves to us. If anyone speaks of some other form of Trinity than this, they are not speaking of what Christians mean by Trinity.

And this then is where there is no harmony between the Bible and the Quran, for what the Bible speaks of and that Christians call the Trinity has nothing to do with Mary, but hear what the Qur'an says that Christians believe with regard to Mary:

YUSUFALI

005.114 Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

005.115 Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."

005.116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

005.117 "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

Now, I myself, don't get how some Muslims connect this to say that Christians believe in a Trinity composed of Father, Mother, Son, but I have run into many who do. My answer is two-fold:
1) I don't think that even these verses of the Qur'an teach that this is the belief of Christians. I think that if Muslims are coming up with that idea, they are getting it from some source other than the Qur'an. And I will gladly admit that it isn't all who think that this is what Christians mean when we speak of the Trinity. Certainly the better informed Muslim understand that the Trinity spoken of by Christians is the Father, Son, and Spirit. But for some reason this other nonsense still exists, and some people say that it is so because they read that into this verse in the Qur'an.
2) If that is really what was meant by this verse, then that in and of itself proves the Qur'an wrong, for Christians simply do NOT now, nor never have meant Father, Mother, and Son when they speak of the Holy Trinity.

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Now that we see that there is harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an on the Qur’anic teaching of the trinity, we finally arrive at the contentious issue of Jesus being God.

The Qur’an explicitly rejects the idea that Jesus is God.

They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,—God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:72–73)

Let us examine the explicit evidence from the Bible. God declared Jesus to be His Son.

“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” (Matthew 17:5b)

Jesus disciples declared Jesus to be Lord.

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36)

However, Jesus disciples were careful to explain that there was only one God, and Jesus was not Him.

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Jesus explicitly defined His relationship with God.

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

Jesus explained that eternal life was obtained though a relationship with the only true God, and Jesus, who God sent to mankind.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3)

Now there are several verses in the Bible which make it appear as if Jesus is God. However, a closer examination of them shows that they could just as easily be interpreted to mean that He is not. Therefore, if a verse can be interpreted to be in harmony with the rest of the Bible or in conflict with the rest of the Bible, then it would seem logical to do the former. I will happily explain any of the various verses. However, all of the evidence is provided, and carefully referenced, in Brothers Kept Apart.

There is no Biblical requirement for Christians to believe that Jesus is God. This teaching was first explicitly stated in early Christian literature approximately 150 AD, with the trinity making its way onto early church writings approximately 200 AD. It took another 125 years or so for the idea of Jesus being God to be a mandatory belief with harsh consequences (including torture, property confiscation, and death) for those who simply believed what the Bible explicitly stated.

Therefore, there is complete harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an on this issue.

Regards,
Grenville

[GreyKode]

Hi Everyone:

Now that we see that there is harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an on the Qur’anic teaching of the trinity, we finally arrive at the contentious issue of Jesus being God.

The Qur’an explicitly rejects the idea that Jesus is God.

They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,—God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:72–73)

Let us examine the explicit evidence from the Bible. God declared Jesus to be His Son.

“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” (Matthew 17:5b)

Jesus disciples declared Jesus to be Lord.

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36)

However, Jesus disciples were careful to explain that there was only one God, and Jesus was not Him.

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Jesus explicitly defined His relationship with God.

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

Jesus explained that eternal life was obtained though a relationship with the only true God, and Jesus, who God sent to mankind.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3)

Now there are several verses in the Bible which make it appear as if Jesus is God. However, a closer examination of them shows that they could just as easily be interpreted to mean that He is not. Therefore, if a verse can be interpreted to be in harmony with the rest of the Bible or in conflict with the rest of the Bible, then it would seem logical to do the former. I will happily explain any of the various verses. However, all of the evidence is provided, and carefully referenced, in Brothers Kept Apart.

There is no Biblical requirement for Christians to believe that Jesus is God. This teaching was first explicitly stated in early Christian literature approximately 150 AD, with the trinity making its way onto early church writings approximately 200 AD. It took another 125 years or so for the idea of Jesus being God to be a mandatory belief with harsh consequences (including torture, property confiscation, and death) for those who simply believed what the Bible explicitly stated.

Therefore, there is complete harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an on this issue.

Regards,
Grenville

Great!, so far the Qur'an and the bible agree that Jesus(pbuh) is not GOD.

I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God

And this shows that he is not divine as being a son, since we are all GOD's children.

Therefore there is agreement with regards to Jesus(pbuh)
1)Being a messenger.
2)Not GOD.
3)Not divine.

[Grace Seeker]

Grenville, if you think that the verses you cited preclude Jesus from being the incarnate God or that even the early Christians thought that he was just a man, then you need to change your way of life status. That is NOT a Christian understanding of those passages AND NEVER HAS BEEN!

[Rou]

Indeed there was no need for the christians and muslims to be apart but unfortunatly there were those hidden who thirsted for power and they had to create a rift in order to get there own needs fulfilled from the religons...

Romans truly did hijack christanity if you ask me any views welcome..