Deutronomy 18:18

[alcurad]

http://home.comcast.net/~rzuberi/art...ronomy1818.pdf

[Azy]

mmm, does this mean you believe the Torah is true and accurate to the letter :uuh:

[doorster]

mmm, does this mean you believe the Torah is true and accurate to the letter :uuh:

did you bother to read it?

anyway...for us

"The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Qur'an includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures.

It is permissible to quote Judaeo-Christian narratives if they do not contradict any verses of the Qur'an or (genuine) hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) - (although one can quote them to explain their falsehood). However, such narrations cannot be used as a source of knowledge because their authenticity is unknown. None of the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used these narrations as sources of knowledge. This is because the Qur'an is explicit that the Jews and the Christians tampered with their respective scriptures and changed the divine revelation. Therefore, it is impossible to ascertain which facts they changed and which are still intact.

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1102495

[Follower]

Sorry but there is no proof that the Quran is trustworthy over the previous scriptures.

The Bible has withstood years of attack, tearing apart, banning, criticism, etc., when you look at the history of the Holy Bible it is the most miraculous book. Look at the prophecies that have been fufilled in the Bible, really the only test available to us today to prove that a writing is from GOD.

Deutronomy 18
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

Even in your Quran Jesus is the prophet that had God's Word thrown away to him!

4:171
Literal:You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .

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[doorster]

Sorry but there is no proof that the Quran is trustworthy over the previous scriptures.

The Bible has withstood years of attack, tearing apart, banning, criticism, etc., when you look at the history of the Holy Bible it is the most miraculous book. Look at the prophecies that have been fufilled in the Bible, really the only test available to us today to prove that a writing is from GOD.

Deutronomy 18
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

Even in your Quran Jesus is the prophet that had God's Word thrown away to him!

4:171
Literal:You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .

Sorry but there is no proof that the Quran is trustworthy over the previous scriptures.

True as far as non-Muslims and kuffar are concerned, but where we are concerned there is ample proof otherwise we would not be Muslim.

comparative forum is for comparing what each of us believes and it is not for you to say things that you do, the tone you use etc

[Azy]

did you bother to read it?

Yes I read it.
My point is that Muslims see the Torah as unreliable since some of it contradicts the Quran, but to reach the conclusions of the article you have to assume that the text is accurate to the individual letter, otherwise the prophecy would mean something else.

[doorster]

Yes I read it.
My point is that Muslims see the Torah as unreliable since some of it contradicts the Quran, but to reach the conclusions of the article you have to assume that the text is accurate to the individual letter, otherwise the prophecy would mean something else.

why is is it that you can not allow us to believe the way we do and we in turn do same for you?

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1105342

how hard is the concept of "live and let live" to understand?
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1105083

[Follower]

I'm sorry dooster I was replying to - "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.''

I have been on many forums and am tired of Muslims saying that the Bible is corrupt when the Quran validates the Torah and Gospel.

Yes if someone wants to believe in something then so be it. Problem - converts from Islam to Christianity get killed in Islamic countries.

[Azy]

why o why is is it that you can not allow us to believe the way we do and we in turn do same for you?

Well I'm still trying to ascertain exactly what it is that you do believe since you haven't given me any information regarding the points I'm trying to make.

If you want to be left to yourself so you can worship in private then perhaps participating in a religious forum isn't the best thing for you. I would prefer to have a discussion because at the moment this scenario doesn't make sense to me.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Apostacy has been covered many times on this forum. Use the search function and quit side tracking threads. This one is about deutronomy 18: 18 - nothing to do with apostacy in Islam!

[Ali_Cena]

Sorry but there is no proof that the Quran is trustworthy over the previous scriptures.

Hi,
Could you please elaborate on your hypothesis. I mean you are not going to get anywhere in a debate with no realy proof of your premise's, are you?. If you really know that the Quran is not trustworthy (astagfirullah), then show us with quotes or what ever means neccesary. Otherwise what you just said is plain wrong, and the Quran is trustworthy.
Peace.

[Ali_Cena]

Yes I read it.
My point is that Muslims see the Torah as unreliable

Hi, I dont think you have understood Islamic theology, as we dont see the original Torah as unreliable as it came from Allah swt through holy prophets, but we see the present day one as unreliable as it is edited by humans.

since some of it contradicts the Quran,

This is were the human editing plays it's part, as the Contradiction comes from the editing of human beings.
Peace

[Ali_Cena]

I'm sorry dooster I was replying to - "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.''

I have been on many forums and am tired of Muslims saying that the Bible is corrupt when the Quran validates the Torah and Gospel.

Yes if someone wants to believe in something then so be it. Problem - converts from Islam to Christianity get killed in Islamic countries.

Hi,
You get some people in Islamic countries drinking, commiting shirk, and murder, I mean all sorts of things, but does it mean that Islam teaches these bad actions? No.

There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by those trying to malign the faith, or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.

For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression" (2:190-193).

It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.

Another similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.

This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).

Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."

Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.

The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Qur'an 60:7-8):

"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."
Peace

[Ali_Cena]

Well I'm still trying to ascertain exactly what it is that you do believe

If you want to be left to yourself so you can worship in private then perhaps participating in a religious forum isn't the best thing for you.

Hi again,
I see something really silly coming from you Azy, hypocrisy.

I belive you can see doorster way of life is Islam, and strangly comeing from you your way of life is undisclosed, now if you want to keep your faith hidden from others, and be isolated in a private room were you can contemplate your faith, so be it, JUST MAKE SURE YOU DONT COME TO A RELIGIOUS FORUM, as it isnt the best thing for you.
Peace

[YusufNoor]

Sorry but there is no proof that the Quran is trustworthy over the previous scriptures.

The Bible has withstood years of attack, tearing apart, banning, criticism, etc., when you look at the history of the Holy Bible it is the most miraculous book. Look at the prophecies that have been fufilled in the Bible, really the only test available to us today to prove that a writing is from GOD.

see below

Deutronomy 18
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

so, according to this, the "Christian" version of Jesus must have spoke in the name of other gods. nowuthbillah.


Even in your Quran Jesus is the prophet that had God's Word thrown away to him!

4:171
Literal:You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i must admit that i have no clue what the OP was on about, but when i see and error this big, it begs a response.

as far as the OT is concerned, not even the Torah is the word of Moses [or God, for that matter] anymore. there is evidence of writings from both the Mush*ite Priests(descendants of Moses) in Shiloh [known as E] and the Levite Priests(descendants of Aaron) in Jerusalem [known as J] as well as much later work by the Priests in Jerusalem [known as P]. there is also evidence of editing in the Torah as well as other writings by Jeremiah and/or his Scribe Baruch [known as Dtr1 & Dtr2, their collective work, btw]with some final edits and redactings along with other writings by Ezra and Nehemiah [known as R]. see Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote The Bible?, preferably the 2nd edition for an amazing analysis of the writings. [Mr Friedman, btw, is a Professor of Hebrew and comparative literature and holds the Katzin chair at the University of California in San Diego as well as having earned hi doctorate at Harvard, he was a visiting scholar at both Oxford and Cambridge.]

as for the NT, Christians can't even agree on what books are a part of the NT, and within the books that they do agree, they can't agree on what texts to use!

my favorite is in the King James version in 1 John 5:

6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

because no-one really knows for sure who wrote most of the NT, [and it certainly was written at the command of Jesus, pbuh] it IS claimed that it was all inspired by the "holy spirit/ghost." the King James was one of the 1st widely available translations of Greek writings, although when it is alleged that Jesus, pbuh, is quoted; Aramaic is used!

back to the verses, now # 7 there is NOT in the early manuscripts! in case you forgot:

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

now, this begs the question, "if the authors and scholars of the NT have no clue whether or not there ARE 3 that bear witness in heaven, and especially the holy ghost bit, then does this not prove that these "scriptures are NOT inspired by the holy ghost? i mean would not this holy ghost no whether or not he is a witness in heaven or not? and if not, we can DEFINITIVELY deduce that AT THE LEAST is is not god!

we could be here all day, but i'll just remind you that what is considered the earliest gospel doesn't even have Jesus, pbuh, in resurrection form! just the disciples finding an empty tomb!

in Mark 16 we read:

9[[a]Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to (K)Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

10(L)She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping.

11When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, (M)they refused to believe it.

12After that, (N)He appeared in a different form (O)to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country.

13They went away and reported it to the others, but they (P)did not believe them either.
The Disciples Commissioned
14Afterward (Q)He appeared (R)to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their (S)unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.

15And He said to them, "(T)Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

16"(U)He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: (V)in My name they will cast out demons, they will (W)speak with new tongues;

18they will (X)pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (Y)lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

19So then, when the Lord Jesus had (Z)spoken to them, He (AA)was received up into heaven and (AB)sat down at the right hand of God.

20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.] [[b]And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.]

and ALL of the above is an addition! so, it [the NT] IS a book of forgeries whether you call it a miracle or not!

what we DO know, is that if you took ALL of the worlds "Holy Books", and threw them in the ocean and destroyed all software copies of said books so that all the remained is what is in peoples hearts and minds, within 2 days, using Hafiz from 8 different countries, from all 4 schools of Islamic thought, then a Qur'an could be reproduced. IN 2 DAYS! using Catholics and Protestants, you could even agree on what Books belong in the Bible, let alone what verses in said books!

edit: and for this little experiment, we wouldn't let Dr Zakir Naik recall them for them! :)

i think the Miracle here IS the Qur'an!

:sl:

[symori]

Muslims believe that the torah was altered by the Jewish.So,there must be some original text and undivine additional texts .

[Oleander]

As soon as All Christians agree on only one or two Bibles translation, Muslims will be more than happy to believe whatever in these books.


So, Christians before you ask Muslim to believe your book, go and reconcile with your fellow Christians on one translation first.

And don't forget to get your OT agree with the Jewish book, because not a single Jew agree with Christians OT.

For example over 1 billion Catholic add 7 books to your Bible, can you explain how, and why?

[Azy]

Hi, I dont think you have understood Islamic theology, as we dont see the original Torah as unreliable as it came from Allah swt through holy prophets, but we see the present day one as unreliable as it is edited by humans.

I am well aware of that. Do you have a copy of the original Torah lying around?

I belive you can see doorster way of life is Islam

I'm aware of that also, not really what I meant though. I was interested in his views on this specific point.

and strangly comeing from you your way of life is undisclosed, now if you want to keep your faith hidden from others, and be isolated in a private room were you can contemplate your faith, so be it, JUST MAKE SURE YOU DONT COME TO A RELIGIOUS FORUM, as it isnt the best thing for you.
Peace

This forum is for the discussion of Islam and that's what I'm trying to do.

Regarding my way of life, it is not so much a matter of it being undisclosed as undefined. I'm not a follower of any particular religion or ideology, I'm flexible and my opinions or actions could change from one day to the next. The only rules I tend to follow are those of the land, maybe I should put 'British Citizen' in there.
If it is intended to mean my spiritual leanings I should put agnostic, but that isn't an all-encompassing way of life in the same way as Islam or Judaism.

[doorster]

.........
This forum is for the discussion of Islam and that's what I'm trying to do.

.......

lookie see at general forum index

Comparative religion
Discussions about other religions in existence

it probably means "don't try to twist every thread you see in to an anti-Islam hatefest"

[Azy]

I'm not sure how a perfectly pertinent question can be seen as turning this into an 'anti-Islam hatefest'.

Are we to discuss the topic at hand or just make personal accusations?

[Ali_Cena]

I am well aware of that. Do you have a copy of the original Torah lying around?

Hi, well if you was aware of that then why would you be questioning?, i have a copy of the Torah, in the internet, but not at home at the current time. Why would you ask such a question anyway?

I'm aware of that also, not really what I meant though. I was interested in his views on this specific point.
This forum is for the discussion of Islam and that's what I'm trying to do.

I dont think you were aware of that eiather as you said "I'm still trying to ascertain exactly what it is that you do believe"-meaning you still dont know. so no you wasent aware of that. Furthermore, if you was aware of that you wouldnt be saying what you just said.

Regarding my way of life, it is not so much a matter of it being undisclosed as undefined. I'm not a follower of any particular religion or ideology, I'm flexible and my opinions or actions could change from one day to the next. The only rules I tend to follow are those of the land, maybe I should put 'British Citizen' in there.

well you should change your way of life everyday... so you dont confuse us.

If it is intended to mean my spiritual leanings I should put agnostic, but that isn't an all-encompassing way of life in the same way as Islam or Judaism.

Spot on. Thats what i think and i think you should learn more about the Quran and Hadeeth, rather than the Torah. Ask people if they got a spare Quran in the house so you can start reading.

[Ali_Cena]

I'm not sure how a perfectly pertinent question can be seen as turning this into an 'anti-Islam hatefest'.

Are we to discuss the topic at hand or just make personal accusations?

as you can see both...:D

[Azy]

Hi, well if you was aware of that then why would you be questioning?, i have a copy of the Torah, in the internet, but not at home at the current time. Why would you ask such a question anyway?

Well that wasn't what I asked. I said 'original' Torah.

I dont think you were aware of that eiather as you said "I'm still trying to ascertain exactly what it is that you do believe"-meaning you still dont know. so no you wasent aware of that. Furthermore, if you was aware of that you wouldnt be saying what you just said.

So I don't even know what I don't know. How do I manage to tie my laces?

Spot on. Thats what i think and i think you should learn more about the Quran and Hadeeth, rather than the Torah. Ask people if they got a spare Quran in the house so you can start reading.

I have internet access so I can look at 20 translation at once. People keep telling me that's no good though as you don't really understand the message if you aren't fluent in Classical Arabic.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I'd like to thank doorster for posting one of the most obviously circular arguments I've ever seen on this board:

The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it.

Also, asking questions about Islam does not equal a "hate-fest". If you can't think critically, or ask questions that may upset received ideas, how is intellectual progress possible?

Peace

[doorster]

Greetings,

I'd like to thank doorster for posting one of the most obviously circular arguments I've ever seen on this board:



Also, asking questions about Islam does not equal a "hate-fest". If you can't think critically, or ask questions that may upset received ideas, how is intellectual progress possible?

Peace

if you were not so quick to celebrate, you may have noticed me quoting that from Muhammad the site admin and tried to add that for kafirs and non-Muslims and Muslim, it is all different

example: If it [Quraan]were not proof enough for me, I would either be an evangelising kafir trickster/distorter like you, or a preacher of Christianity like graceseeker,follower glo et al and vice versa

[czgibson]

Greetings,

if you were not so quick to celebrate, you may have noticed me quoting that from Muhammad the site admin and trying to add that for kafirs and non-Muslims and Muslim, it is all different

I did notice it was from Muhammad. Does that change things somehow?

example: If it were not proof enough for me, I would either be an evangelising kafir like you, or a preacher of Christianity like graceseeker,follower glo et al and vice vaers

So are you saying that you do find circular arguments like that convincing?

Sorry I can't make out exactly what you mean here.

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

an evangelising kafir trickster/distorter like you

So now you're insulting me - that's bound to win the argument. :hmm:

Peace

[doorster]

I never give a toss about winning arguments whereas your kind does and your saying that will cause one of your mates to ban me for 30 days regardless of you twisting post,

for example last month my little chat http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaz...ml#post1082740 with trumble started an argument with an annonymous mod in PMs and he banned me

and you people know this well thus take full advantage of their fawning over you!

[Cabdullahi]

BROTHER take is easy when you are addressing others!.....

The quran says 'call onto the way of thy lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in ways that are best''

so im afraid to say we have failed on laying the first brick that would make a strong foundation where we can talk to ppl without scaring them away

peace

[doorster]

BROTHER take is easy when you are addressing others!.....

The quran says 'call onto the way of thy lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in ways that are best''

so im afraid to say we have failed on laying the first brick that would make a strong foundation where we can talk to ppl without scaring them away

peace

you mean like you do?

demonising entire communities and countries is "Islamic" but getting sick of any individual and telling him so after putting up with him 100s of times is bad manners?

[Cabdullahi]

brother relax

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Well that wasn't what I asked. I said 'original' Torah.
So I don't even know what I don't know. How do I manage to tie my laces?

Please. Azy if you want to start argueing at least make sense. I mean "How do I manage to tie my laces?" what on earth is that?, i think you are confusing yourself^o). Secondly, no one has the original Torah, if you do then let us know, becuase i dont and no one does have the exact original copy, from were it was first made.

I have internet access so I can look at 20 translation at once. People keep telling me that's no good though as you don't really understand the message if you aren't fluent in Classical Arabic.

Well thats true, on the other hand, if you look at prominant ones, like pickthall, Yusuf Ali, whilst having the commentaried versions, you can understand why they have the words there or understand the senario, you get what i mean? Furthermore its good to have more than 1 translation as Allah SWT might want to give a word with 2 correct meanings, like explaining why Deed X is wrong by using the words lets saying Y which could mean bad, dirty, disgusting or unclean.

Peace to you Azy.

[Azy]

what on earth is that?

That was a little joke.

Secondly, no one has the original Torah, if you do then let us know, becuase i dont and no one does have the exact original copy, from were it was first made.

My point exactly, how can the author of the document in the original post claim such accuracy when nobody knows the wording of the original, let alone the spellings to the exact letter?

Peace to you Azy.

Peace

[Ali_Cena]

That was a little joke.

Ok, your sense of humour is a funny one:D

My point exactly, how can the author of the document in the original post claim such accuracy when nobody knows the wording of the original, let alone the spellings to the exact letter?

well thats true, but the editing has even happened like 100-200 years ago, not just from the first ever Torah, I mean i was reading something; which i cant find the source to, but i am sure someone can, where the pope even admits, the church edited the bible, YES EDITING the bible, for the reason you might ask, is that they wanted to answer quetsions that couldnt be answerd at the time, so the editied and even admited that.

So you can see if the pope even admited it, then, you know its been changed, and if the first ever copy can not be found, then you cant even UNEDIT it, so...unreliable to some extent.

Peace

Peace to you to.

[Follower]

Your Quran confirms the Torah and Gospels.

We have the original Aramaic Gospels. I have linked to John 1 for you.

http://www.aramaicpe****ta.com/Arama...n/Yukhnch1.pdf

I have been to Bible studys that specifically ask for each person to bring various translatons. The main theme never changes, but various translations add fuller meaning or easier understanding the scripture.

Look at all the translations of the Quran.

[Follower]

http://www.aramaicpe****ta.com/Arama...n/Yukhnch1.pdf

[Follower]

LOL!! It keeps blocking out the full word.

p e s h i t t a

[Follower]

Ali Cena we know from hadith that the Quran was edited by some of the scribes.

http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-is...chaeology.html

The torah is the same one from Jesus time and the Gospel is from the time of Paul and Polycarp, this is fact.

What has changed or happened in Islam that the Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel and

Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) accepted the Gospel texts
BUKHARI (810-870) accepted the Gospel texts (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
Al-Mas’udi (956) accepted the Gospel texts
Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037) accepted the Gospel texts
AL-GHAZZALI (1111) accepted the Gospel texts (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
Ibn-Khaldun (1406) accepted the Gospel texts (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)
Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation." (The Muhammedan Commentary, pp 79 f.).

[Zafran]

Ali Cena we know from hadith that the Quran was edited by some of the scribes.

http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-is...chaeology.html

The torah is the same one from Jesus time and the Gospel is from the time of Paul and Polycarp, this is fact.

What has changed or happened in Islam that the Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel and

Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) accepted the Gospel texts
BUKHARI (810-870) accepted the Gospel texts (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
Al-Mas’udi (956) accepted the Gospel texts
Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037) accepted the Gospel texts
AL-GHAZZALI (1111) accepted the Gospel texts (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
Ibn-Khaldun (1406) accepted the Gospel texts (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)
Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation." (The Muhammedan Commentary, pp 79 f.).

salaam

most of that is for that famous anti Islamic site - You should also check answering chrisatinty it rebuttals most of those claims :smile:


and the "The Muhammedan Commentary" - sounds orientalists work to me.

nice try though.

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"



peace.

[Grace Seeker]

http://home.comcast.net/~rzuberi/art...ronomy1818.pdf

Alcurad, not to be insulting, but I have heard all of this before, and I just don't find any of it at all convincing. I think the plain sense of the passage, a refernce to some prophet of the original author's day and from the tribes he was a part of, is the most reasonable understanding. Personally, I suspect it refers to Joshua. I don't even like the Christian application of this to Jesus as the original intent, even if some might aruge it as a secondary interpretation.

[alcurad]

heh, grace, that was 4 weeks ago, I forgot I opened this thread by now:),,
I've seen it a more than a dozen times too, but the last page was interesting so I thought to share,,
btw why do you think it's Joshua?
hmm, gets to show how many interpretations there could be

[Follower]

LOL!! Why can't an orientalist be truthful in telling the history of Islam?

[Grace Seeker]

heh, grace, that was 4 weeks ago, I forgot I opened this thread by now:),,
I've seen it a more than a dozen times too, but the last page was interesting so I thought to share,,

Yeah, I know. And I ignored it the first dozen times I saw it simply because I've been down this road so many times before.

btw why do you think it's Joshua?
hmm, gets to show how many interpretations there could be

Primarily because the larger passage, meaning more than this isolated verse, seems to be about the nation's prepraration to enter the "promised land" and the Lord's expected behavior of them in so doing. And for this they are going to need someone to take over Moses' leadership role, for God already knows that Moses is not going to enter the land with them. Then in chapter 31 we see Joshua is commissioned for this role by both God and Moses.

And the close of the book tells us at the passing of Moses that "Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him" (Deuteronomy 34:9a) This is a result of the commissioning in chapter 31 and fulfills 18:18. I am aware that immeidately after this Deuteronomy goes on to say: "10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, 11 who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel." I note that it doesn't say no other prophet has risen. Only that no other prophet had risen that the Lord knew face to face like Moses did. I don't think that last part of knowing God face to face was part of what the condition of being the "prophet like you" referenced in 18:18. (Nor do I suspect do any Muslims for certainly it would rule out Muhammad as the referenced prophet as well.) Rather, the "prophet like you" of 18:18 would also be a "prophet like me" that Moses references in 18:15, and that prophet is known not for knowing God face to face but for being the who hears God's voice so that the community of Israel doesn't have to hear the voice of the Lord nor see the great fire anymore. Thus it seems to me that this prophet is one who steps in the lead the very same band of individuals that Moses himself is presently leading.

And despite the presenter's arguments for other understandings of the phrase "from among their brothers", it still seems to me that it must be someone who is indeed presently among them at the time those words are spoken. (Which is also why I don't believe it refers to Jesus anymore than it does to Muhammad.)

[alcurad]

I see. Joshua now, I was wondering who Joshua was:), I'm more used to the Arabic Yoshe'.

But this opens up room for questioning other verses in the OT that are taken to be foretelling Jesus, I mean Deuteronomy 18:18 is quite widely used for proof from what I've seen-which admittedly isn't much-or no?

[Grace Seeker]

But this opens up room for questioning other verses in the OT that are taken to be foretelling Jesus, I mean Deuteronomy 18:18 is quite widely used for proof from what I've seen-which admittedly isn't much-or no?

The key reason that people will speak of Deuteronomy 18:18 referring to Jesus is because Peter quotes from Deuteronomy 18:15 (Acts 3:33) when he speaking to the crowd of onlookers after healing a beggar on the steps of the temple. Peter claims it was foreshadowing Christ.


As to whether or not it opens up room for questioning other OT passages that Christian claim as foretelling Jesus, I don't think you need my take on Deuteronomy 18 to provide that. I think that all of the OT passages that speak of Christ need to be seriously questioned.

Some Christians treat OT prophecies like you hear people talk about Nostradamus. They look at the their present experience and then read it into the words from the past. The result is that they claim to see things now, that no one saw at the time. Is that legitimate or not? Well, each person is going to have to make their own mind up on that. Some of it, such as the Messiah being from Bethlehem, makes sense to me. Other items I think are just excited people grasping at every thing that comes along and trying to make it fit.

And then there are passages that I think need to be understood as having two levels of meaning. Take Psalm 22 for instance:

Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

Psalm 22 isn't usually listed as one of the prophecies regarding Jesus. And of course it was meant to have meaning in its own day. But, as I read it, I see in it the life of Jesus so very strongly. Indeed, I think it was for this very reason that Jesus himself turn to and quoted from it while he was on the cross. It wasn't the cry of abandonment that so many take it to be, but a claiming of the ultimate promises of God's faithfulness described in this psalm.

Other passages, like Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." were certainly prophecy, but not specifically understood as Messianic prophecies until people like Matthew would later co-opt them in declaring the Christian gospel.

This sort of dual fulfillment is what I see happening in Peter's re-interpretation of Deuteronomy 18 and applying what I think was certainly originally understood as applying to Joshua and then deciding to also claim that it pointed to Jesus. Such may not be how we understand prophecy to work today -- we like to have one-to-one correspondence with things. But for the Hebrew mindset, such methodologies in interpretation were commonplace.

So, as we read these passages 2000 years removed from Peter's time, I don't feel that I can question his interpretation. But, when I am looking for the answer in my own mind, being the linear western thinker that I am, I will see Joshua.

[Follower]

Deuteronomy 18
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

According to Islam- The angel Gabriel put the words in Mohammad's mouth.

According to the Quran:

Jesus is Kalimatuhu: God's Word 3:45. Allah threw his words away to Jesus, along with his soul.

[Oleander]

Deuteronomy 18
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

According to Islam- The angel Gabriel put the words in Mohammad's mouth.

According to the Quran:

Jesus is Kalimatuhu: God's Word 3:45. Allah threw his words away to Jesus, along with his soul.


>>>To Follower:

Let's say Deut. 18:18 is about Jesus, can you tell us:

Why Jesus for you more than a prophet?

Who did the command?

Who put the word in his mouth?


If God the one who sent the prophet, and

God who command the prophet, and

God who put the word in the prophet mouth.

Then, who deserve to be worship, God or the prophet?

[GreyKode]

LOL @ Follower of Falsehood

Allah threw his words away to Jesus, along with his soul.