Britain is vulnerable to a "tempest of extremism" warns the Archbishop of Canterbury

[Uthman]

Dr Rowan Williams says the recent election of a BNP councillor in Kent is "a straw in the wind"

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has warned that the recession could make Britain more vulnerable to a “tempest” of extremism and contribute to a rise of the British National Party.

Rising unemployment and falling house prices were among factors that could contribute to xenophobia and prejudice, he said.

Dr Williams, speaking at a seminar of Christian and Muslim scholars in London, warned that the recent election of a BNP councillor in Kent was a “straw in the wind”.

He said that people were feeling angry because of the financial crisis.

“The fact that the BNP can win a seat in Sevenoaks is a straw in the wind, and we have to watch the horizon very, very carefully for the tempest that might be behind that.”

Dr Williams was addressing the Christian-Muslim Forum at St Ethelburga's in the city, the small medieval church rebuilt as a centre for reconciliation and peace after it was almost completely destroyed by an IRA bomb.

He was speaking the week after the General Synod of the Church of England voted to ban clergy and lay staff from joining the British National Party or any other organisation that contradicts the doctrine that all races are equal.

Dr Williams, who also spoke in support of credit unions and criticised the “unequal sharing of risk” in some financial institutions which protect some at the expense of others, said society cannot afford to ignore the risk posed by extremism during the financial crisis.

He said: “I think we do ignore, at our peril, a very high risk which history should have taught us if it teaches us anything: a very high risk of financial stringency leading to political extremes – anger finding its expression in xenophobia, prejudice, rivalry, all the tactics that both sociologists and psychologists remark on as the displacement of unease and fear.”

Stephen Timms, MP for East Ham and Financial Secretary to the Treasury, also spoke at the Forum saying, “Faith communities represented in this forum represent generosity rather than greed, fairness, peacemaking, strength in family values — community values that underpin these things we want to achieve.”

Other speakers at the event included The Community Cohesion Minister, Sadiq Khan, Alex Cobham of Christian Aid and Faizal Manjoo of the Islamic Foundation.

Source

[Uthman]

He is referring to "political extremes" as opposed to terrorist extremism, just in case anybody is confused. It makes sense really. At times of financial difficulty, people tend to blame rising unemployment on the immigrants for "stealing our jobs", hence an increase in support for anti-immigration parties e.g the BNP.

[Whatsthepoint]

The rise of right wing parites is a natural reaction to immigration, finances don't play a major role here, though the currecnt crisis may have enhanced the phenomenon. The trend started years ago, all over western Europe.
It doesn't happen in America, I guess Europe's got special issues.

[Dawud_uk]

:sl:

love it when i get morons on the da'wah stall shouting at us to get back we came from!

then they notice i am white which will either make them stop or think or make them even angrier lol.

:sl:

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[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Mr. Osman, you certainly find the hot cookies

“The fact that the BNP can win a seat in Sevenoaks is a straw in the wind, and we have to watch the horizon very, very carefully for the tempest that might be behind that.”

Hitler was a corporal in the First World War, he was a straw blowing in the wind, but we saw the power of the tempest.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

love it when i get morons on the da'wah stall shouting at us to get back we came from!

I have found it helps me in similar situations to pray that they may find peace in their hearts. Don’t take it personally, people just don’t like religion.

In the spirit of searching for justice for all people

Eric

[Pomak]

The rise of right wing parites is a natural reaction to immigration, finances don't play a major role here, though the currecnt crisis may have enhanced the phenomenon. The trend started years ago, all over western Europe.
It doesn't happen in America, I guess Europe's got special issues.

Germany 1930's

No one was migrating to my knowledge.

[Dawud_uk]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

I have found it helps me in similar situations to pray that they may find peace in their hearts. Don’t take it personally, people just don’t like religion.

In the spirit of searching for justice for all people

Eric

peace eric,

most of the shouters are christians, though ones who are not practicing very much i would say from their attitude and actions.

i have however had lots of good decent debates and discussions with practicing christians, who are polite and not puffed up with pride.

there is a verse in the Quran which sums this up, let me see if i can find it...

[Dawud_uk]

peace eric, here is the Quran reference i was referring to,

Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.
Quran, 5:82

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

most of the shouters are christians, though ones who are not practicing very much i would say from their attitude and actions.

Sadly a lot of people seem to live in fear, and fear has been associated with a lack of love. I am so sorry to hear that you get a lot of abuse from Christians, you might remind them about the greatest commandments to love their neighbours as they love themselves. We certainly should not look on you as an enemy but if this appears to be so, you might remind them about Mathew 5:43

Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

i have however had lots of good decent debates and discussions with practicing christians, who are polite and not puffed up with pride.

There is hope for us then. :smile:

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Amadeus85]

Germany 1930's

No one was migrating to my knowledge.

The jews werent immigrants (at least not the new one) but they lived in ghettos, seperating themselves from the german majority and had other ethnicity.

[Whatsthepoint]

The jews werent immigrants (at least not the new one) but they lived in ghettos, seperating themselves from the german majority and had other ethnicity.

That was their mistake.
The European Man apparently prefers that immigrants integrate.

[Muezzin]

Germany 1930's

No one was migrating to my knowledge.

The jews werent immigrants (at least not the new one) but they lived in ghettos, seperating themselves from the german majority and had other ethnicity.

That was their mistake.
The European Man apparently prefers that immigrants integrate.

...Are we having this conversation?

Or is there some undercurrent of sarcasm and irony I've missed?

[Whatsthepoint]

...Are we having this conversation?

Or is there some undercurrent of sarcasm and irony I've missed?

Hmmm I don't know.
I'm not BNP.

[Pomak]

The jews werent immigrants (at least not the new one) but they lived in ghettos, seperating themselves from the german majority and had other ethnicity.

Thats actually not exactly historically correct. Jews were highly assimilated, with many not being even Jewish based on the religious definition.

But lets say you were right, erm then the problem in Uk still isn't because of migrants but rather because of state policies in the last 30 years.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Pomak;1107015]

Thats actually not exactly historically correct. Jews were highly assimilated, with many not being even Jewish based on the religious definition.

The elites were assimilated, but in Europe only minority of jews were rich and powerful, majority were living in poverty.

But lets say you were right, erm then the problem in Uk still isn't because of migrants but rather because of state policies in the last 30 years.

Of course You are right, the economic crisis has nothing to do with the immigrants.

[Pomak]

Of course You are right, the economic crisis has nothing to do with the immigrants.

I meant the particular doctrine of multiculturalism and policing in 'ethnic' communities that the brits adopted.

[Whatsthepoint]

I meant the particular doctrine of multiculturalism and policing in 'ethnic' communities that the brits adopted.

Yep, multiculturalism proved to be pretty much a failure.

[Uthman]

Dr Williams, who also spoke in support of credit unions and criticised the “unequal sharing of risk” in some financial institutions which protect some at the expense of others, said society cannot afford to ignore the risk posed by extremism during the financial crisis.

And whaddayaknow, that's something that Islamic banking can specifically address.

[Dawud_uk]

Yep, multiculturalism proved to be pretty much a failure.

i am curious, more of less of a failure than the forced assimilation found in france?

[Whatsthepoint]

i am curious, more of less of a failure than the forced assimilation found in france?

I didn't realize there's forced assimialtion in France.
But if there is, I guess my answer would have to be I'm not sure.

[Pomak]

Yep, multiculturalism proved to be pretty much a failure.

Erm you do realize that i am from Australia and multiculturalism worked pretty well here. So is your argument that the multicultural model in UK failed or that multiculturalism per se failed?

I didn't realize there's forced assimialtion in France.
But if there is, I guess my answer would have to be I'm not sure.

Well it depends if you consider forcing people to use ethnic French names and a bunch of other psudo-socialist policies.

[Whatsthepoint]

Erm you do realize that i am from Australia and multiculturalism worked pretty well here. So is your argument that the multicultural model in UK failed or that multiculturalism per se failed?

Well it depends if you consider forcing people to use ethnic French names and a bunch of other psudo-socialist policies.

It failed in countries that let massive the influx of uneducated foreign popualtion. Australia and the US are among the few countries that it didnt fail, I guess primarily because of their emmigration policies as well as mentality, everyones an immigrant there..

[Amadeus85]

i am curious, more of less of a failure than the forced assimilation found in france?

Definitely France did better job than UK. In France terroristic attack such as the one from London '05 would rather not happen. In France political islamism is almost non existing, the french muslims in majority have similar attitudes like non muslim majority.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Pomak;1107535]

Erm you do realize that i am from Australia and multiculturalism worked pretty well here. So is your argument that the multicultural model in UK failed or that multiculturalism per se failed?

What about Cronulla riots?

[Pomak]

[QUOTE=Aaron85;1107554]

What about Cronulla riots?

1 riot in..... like 40 years?
It wasn't even a proper riot.

[Pomak]

It failed in countries that let massive the influx of uneducated foreign popualtion. Australia and the US are among the few countries that it didnt fail, I guess primarily because of their emmigration policies as well as mentality, everyones an immigrant there..

Its because US and Aus have an inclusive national identity(generally) while Europe has an ethnocentric one. (and we don't tell immigrants what the have to call their children)

[KAding]

Its because US and Aus have an inclusive national identity(generally) while Europe has an ethnocentric one. (and we don't tell immigrants what the have to call their children)

I don't think there are any countries in Europe where you are not free to name your children. What law in France are you referring too?

[KAding]

Its because US and Aus have an inclusive national identity(generally) while Europe has an ethnocentric one. (and we don't tell immigrants what the have to call their children)

It is also an issue of scale as well though. Muslim communities in the US and Australia are much smaller than in most of Europe, including the UK but especially France. In the US Muslim immigrants are generally fairly wealthy as well, their average income is above the national average even.

I agree with you though that as far as integration is concerned, the French approach has been even worse than in the rest of Europe. I don't believe the French approach is representative for Europe though. The whole mess with the riots in Paris a few years ago is unique to France and it is pretty much unheard of in any other European country.

[Whatsthepoint]

Its because US and Aus have an inclusive national identity(generally) while Europe has an ethnocentric one. (and we don't tell immigrants what the have to call their children)

Well, should we change our identity so immigrants would feel accepted?

[Muezzin]

People seem to be projecting their perceptions of certain groups who oppose immigration in Germany, France, Sweden, America, Australia etc, onto the groups in the UK.

This is flawed. British culture is not exactly the same as those other countries, and thus the motives and reactions of its people are not the same either.

In the UK, anti-immigration groups are not necessarily ethnocentric, though it certainly manifests in extremists. Rather, if we are to disparage them, we would call such groups xenophobes - they don't care what you look like; if you're foreign, they don't like you. You could be white or brown, but if you're from abroad, certain types will hate you based on that fact alone.

In the UK, all these other complaints ('they steal our jobs'/'they ruin our culture' etc) tend to stem from this xenophobia. Even skinheads enjoy a curry.

I'm not saying all British people who criticise immigration are extremists or xenophobes or both. I'm talking just about the ones the Archbishop seems worried about.

[Pomak]

I don't think there are any countries in Europe where you are not free to name your children. What law in France are you referring too?

The last in france, changed in the late 80's or early 90's meant that you had to choose from a list of pre-approved "French" names. And recently there has been a problem with North Africans who were named under that law who want to change their names, but the judges mostly don't allow it.

It is also an issue of scale as well though. Muslim communities in the US and Australia are much smaller than in most of Europe, including the UK but especially France. In the US Muslim immigrants are generally fairly wealthy as well, their average income is above the national average even.

I agree with you though that as far as integration is concerned, the French approach has been even worse than in the rest of Europe. I don't believe the French approach is representative for Europe though. The whole mess with the riots in Paris a few years ago is unique to France and it is pretty much unheard of in any other European country.

1. Are you making an argument that muslim immigration is somehow different to say Chinese?

2. yes, i know the French are a bunch of extremists(in terms of secularism) but the point about the nature of European identity still stands.

Well, should we change our identity so immigrants would feel accepted?

You have 2 options, have more babies or change.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Pomak;1107734]

1 riot in..... like 40 years?
It wasn't even a proper riot.

I think that it was serious, I saw the videos from Cronulla on YouTube. Hundreds of whites hunting for everyone looking like arabs, it looked serious and shocking. Of course that it didnt happen 40 years ago, as it is connected with the asian immigration, which began to be so numerous in the last 15 years, am I right? Whatsthepoint is right, Australia, as well as USA are nations of immigrants so its not so sensitive for them. But in Europe its different, here our forefathers lived in our countries for more than 1500 years.

[Pomak]

[QUOTE=Aaron85;1108061]

I think that it was serious, I saw the videos from Cronulla on YouTube. Hundreds of whites hunting for everyone looking like arabs, it looked serious and shocking. Of course that it didnt happen 40 years ago, as it is connected with the asian immigration, which began to be so numerous in the last 15 years, am I right? Whatsthepoint is right, Australia, as well as USA are nations of immigrants so its not so sensitive for them. But in Europe its different, here our forefathers lived in our countries for more than 1500 years.

Right, you saw something on youtube so your an expert now. Nah don't listen to me, i only live in the city that it happened in, and i just happen to be studying it as part of my uni degree....

And no the difference is what i said above. Options are;
A. start making more babies, or
B. Change age old European attitudes to race or
C. have the economy die

its not that hard.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Pomak;1108102][QUOTE=Aaron85;1108061]

Right, you saw something on youtube so your an expert now. Nah don't listen to me, i only live in the city that it happened in, and i just happen to be studying it as part of my uni degree....

I saw what I saw, and it did look shocking. Same as the race riots in the early 90's in L.A, or race riots in Holland after van Gogh death. It happens becaue of multiculturalism, which even the european liberals nowadays call as mistake.

And no the difference is what i said above. Options are;

A. start making more babies, or

Its possible, look at France, Sweden, Holland,

B. Change age old European attitudes to race or

Which equals to let hundred thousands of people from other part of the world to settle on european soil? The natural reaction of normal people is resist.

C. have the economy die

The european economy is not bad,You should be more optimistic.

[Whatsthepoint]

A. start making more babies, or
B. Change age old European attitudes to race or
C. have the economy die

D. Import workers without changing our attitudes and deport the troubled ones from time to time.
Of course, I'd rather have harmony.
The problem is, when economic problems arise, everyone blames someone when they should be blaming themselves. Right wing parties blame immigrants, leftists blame the rightists, immigrants blame the state

[KAding]

The last in france, changed in the late 80's or early 90's meant that you had to choose from a list of pre-approved "French" names. And recently there has been a problem with North Africans who were named under that law who want to change their names, but the judges mostly don't allow it.

From what I know only "offensive" names are banned and there are no "pre-approved" lists of allowed names you have to choose from. But what point are you trying to make exactly? That Muslim parents can't give Muslim names to their children? I mean, that clearly isn't the case as Muslim names like Muhammed, Fatima, Abdullah and whatnot are very very common in France. There might be issues with names like "Jihad", but I think those are exceptions. You most certainly don't have to choose an "ethnic French" name for your child!

There is some more info on this on: http://www.affection.org/prenoms/loi.html (in french)

It explicitly states that there is no official list you have to choose from.

1. Are you making an argument that muslim immigration is somehow different to say Chinese?

Absolutely, not all cultures and thus immigrants are the same. I think Muslims have a much more unyielding and dominant culture, because it is anchored in their religion. A religion that is supposed to be immutable and at the same time very much controls many aspects of a persons life (in other words, the religion to a large extend IS the culture). Furthermore within Islam distancing oneself from the religion is generally frowned upon.

I think this severely hampers the chances of Muslim immigrants and their children from assimilating into the bigger culture. It isn't impossible, and there might be a degree of integration, but I think Muslims will always remain a clearly visible and distinct social group, one that will not fade away over time. I think some immigrant groups are more likely to integrate because they are, for example, same culture, same religion and unfortunately also same 'race'. (Example: Italians in the Netherlands). Others are less likely, because they have a way of life that is resilient enough to withstand the dominant culture in a country. I think this is the case with Muslim.

2. yes, i know the French are a bunch of extremists(in terms of secularism) but the point about the nature of European identity still stands.

Perhaps, but we should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush here. As Muezzin also noted, the UK does not really stand in that same 'ethnic nationalist' tradition as, say, the Germans. And the French, with their radical secularism and statism, are again very much distinct from, say, the Dutch tradition of 'pillarisation', whereby each social group (including Muslims) has its own schools, TV channels, newspapers, sport clubs and whatnot.

[Pomak]

From what I know only "offensive" names are banned and there are no "pre-approved" lists of allowed names you have to choose from. But what point are you trying to make exactly? That Muslim parents can't give Muslim names to their children? I mean, that clearly isn't the case as Muslim names like Muhammed, Fatima, Abdullah and whatnot are very very common in France. There might be issues with names like "Jihad", but I think those are exceptions. You most certainly don't have to choose an "ethnic French" name for your child!

There is some more info on this on: http://www.affection.org/prenoms/loi.html (in french)

It explicitly states that there is no official list you have to choose from.

There was before. It was overturned when people realised that someone's name isn't going to have any impact on their assimilation/integration.

Absolutely, not all cultures and thus immigrants are the same. I think Muslims have a much more unyielding and dominant culture, because it is anchored in their religion. A religion that is supposed to be immutable and at the same time very much controls many aspects of a persons life (in other words, the religion to a large extend IS the culture). Furthermore within Islam distancing oneself from the religion is generally frowned upon.

I think this severely hampers the chances of Muslim immigrants and their children from assimilating into the bigger culture. It isn't impossible, and there might be a degree of integration, but I think Muslims will always remain a clearly visible and distinct social group, one that will not fade away over time. I think some immigrant groups are more likely to integrate because they are, for example, same culture, same religion and unfortunately also same 'race'. (Example: Italians in the Netherlands). Others are less likely, because they have a way of life that is resilient enough to withstand the dominant culture in a country. I think this is the case with Muslim.

i work with facts not "i thinks".

Perhaps, but we should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush here. As Muezzin also noted, the UK does not really stand in that same 'ethnic nationalist' tradition as, say, the Germans. And the French, with their radical secularism and statism, are again very much distinct from, say, the Dutch tradition of 'pillarisation', whereby each social group (including Muslims) has its own schools, TV channels, newspapers, sport clubs and whatnot.

Funny, ive yet to find one European country that describes sons and daughters of migrants with the same name as those of non immigrant background.

[KAding]

There was before. It was overturned when people realised that someone's name isn't going to have any impact on their assimilation/integration.

Right, so there are no European countries that forces 'ethnic names' down immigrants throats. I'm glad we cleared that up ;).

Interestingly there was a whole row over naming lists over here in the Netherlands last year, because Morocco still demands that the children of the children of immigrants who came here over 40 years ago respect an official 'Moroccan name list' when naming their newborns.

i work with facts not "i thinks".

Haha, very well. Please don't hesitate to share those facts with me :D.

I believe the facts tell us that immigrants who come from a significantly different background will have a harder time assimilating into the bigger culture, especially if their own minority culture is rooted in something as immutable and rigid as a religion.

But what is your position exactly? The one that is based on 'facts' of course :p. That an immigrant is an immigrant and any one group of immigrants will have as easy a time as another to integrate? You don't believe a German moving the the Netherlands will have an easier time and is more likely to assimilate than someone from the Inner Mongolia? That, say, a Christian immigrant will have an easier time integrating into a society that based on Christian values?

In my opinion, there are many factors that influence the chances of integration and assimilation by an immigrant group and one of them is their cultural and religious background. But of course that isn't the only one! The policies and culture of the 'receiving' country also matter of course.

Funny, ive yet to find one European country that describes sons and daughters of migrants with the same name as those of non immigrant background.

And this little tidbit of information tells you what exactly? That all European countries have a similar tradition when dealing with immigration? I think you are very much mistaken if you believe that. Oops, here I go again with the "I think"! My apologies :P. I just don't see how you can dismiss clear factual differences in approach in different European countries with this one supposed 'fact'.

It is easy to blame this all on government policy, but fact of the matter is that the children of immigrants also maintain and cultivate this identity that links them to their original country.

[Pomak]

Right, so there are no European countries that forces 'ethnic names' down immigrants throats. I'm glad we cleared that up ;).

Interestingly there was a whole row over naming lists over here in the Netherlands last year, because Morocco still demands that the children of the children of immigrants who came here over 40 years ago respect an official 'Moroccan name list' when naming their newborns.

No, there was a policy and today those people who were born during that policy still have "French" names, and can't change them.

Haha, very well. Please don't hesitate to share those facts with me .

I believe the facts tell us that immigrants who come from a significantly different background will have a harder time assimilating into the bigger culture, especially if their own minority culture is rooted in something as immutable and rigid as a religion.

But what is your position exactly? The one that is based on 'facts' of course . That an immigrant is an immigrant and any one group of immigrants will have as easy a time as another to integrate? You don't believe a German moving the the Netherlands will have an easier time and is more likely to assimilate than someone from the Inner Mongolia? That, say, a Christian immigrant will have an easier time integrating into a society that based on Christian values?

In my opinion, there are many factors that influence the chances of integration and assimilation by an immigrant group and one of them is their cultural and religious background. But of course that isn't the only one! The policies and culture of the 'receiving' country also matter of course.

My example was Chinese because they follow different religions, are as likely to form ghettos, and are not part of the same culture.

And this little tidbit of information tells you what exactly? That all European countries have a similar tradition when dealing with immigration? I think you are very much mistaken if you believe that. Oops, here I go again with the "I think"! My apologies :P. I just don't see how you can dismiss clear factual differences in approach in different European countries with this one supposed 'fact'.

It is easy to blame this all on government policy, but fact of the matter is that the children of immigrants also maintain and cultivate this identity that links them to their original country.

Who said i blame the gov't? I blame Europeans and their culture.