Can the Quran stand the test?

[Follower]

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d740101.htm

"There are four major rules for proving the credibility of documents. One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events? Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence? Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives? Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred? If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable. With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility."

[nihil est]

With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility."

Not at all.

One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records

We have no way of telling if the writer of the original Gospels were actually eyewitnesses. For instance, religious people have long believed that the apostle Matthew actually wrote the Gospel of Matthew, but that is probably not true.

or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events?

A contemporary? Well, no. The earliest is about 40 years removed from Jesus' death. Lived in the same area? John for example was probably written in Asia Minor or Syria. Not exactly Palestine.

Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence?

Corrborating what claims though? That Jesus lived? Pretty firm evidence. That Jesus was God or did miracles to several hundred people as described in the Gospels? Nada.

Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives?

The alleged martyrdom of the Apostles are based on tradition - we have no independent evidence to suggest that most of them died the way Church tradition claims they did. In fact, some of the traditions contradict each other.

Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred? If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable.

Who?

[Follower]

LOL! You can't just say, probably not, not at all, etc. you have to prove it! Lack of evidence is not proof.

Why couldn't a contemporary have written the eyewitness account? A man witnesses something in his 20's writes about it in his 60's. I remember vividly everything about the assasination of JFK.

Even a student of the contemporary - I have told my children the assasination of JFK. They know what we know, LOL! even the conspiracy theories!

We do have the Martydom of Polycarp- a letter written about the student of John.

Helping date the Gospels we have letters from Paul who we know lived ca. 6-67AD mentioning scripture:

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

Who? for example secular historians- and the crucifixion of Jesus- Muslims deny the crucifixion.

Can the Quran stand up to this scrutiny?

[Oleander]

[QUOTE=Follower; we have letters from Paul who we know lived ca. 6-67AD mentioning scripture:

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: [U]that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,[/U] 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.



>>>If Paul was telling the truth in the above verses, would you please site to us where in the scripture written about Jesus TO DIE AND BURIED FOR THREE DAYS, and raise on the third day According to the scripture?

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[mkh4JC]

[QUOTE=Oleander;1108185]

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,[/U] 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.



>>>If Paul was telling the truth in the above verses, would you please site to us where in the scripture written about Jesus TO DIE AND BURIED FOR THREE DAYS, and raise on the third day According to the scripture?

Well, there's this:

'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.' Psalms 16: 10.

[Grace Seeker]

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.



>>>If Paul was telling the truth in the above verses, would you please site to us where in the scripture written about Jesus TO DIE AND BURIED FOR THREE DAYS, and raise on the third day According to the scripture?

The most obvious one is Psalm 16:10 "For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol, neither wilt thou allow thy Holy One to see corruption."

In Jesus' day (and in Paul's) Jonah was understood to have spent 3 days in the belly of the fish that swallowed him. Jesus himself makes reference to this: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40).

There there is also Hosea 6:2 "He doth revive us after two days, In the third day He doth raise us up, And we live before Him."

But I want to suggest another way of viewing what Paul was saying. I suspect that Paul was not referring to one particular passage, but was referencing the whole body of Old Testament prophecies about Jesus suffering, death, burial, and resurrection. The point is not that such-and-such a verse has now come true, but that the truth to which all of the Scriptures point has now been realized!

[Imam]

Well, there's this:

'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.' Psalms 16: 10.

The claim of third day resurrection prophecy is one of the top NT forgeries

I would suggest reading that as a beginning ,and more in the right time......

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2third96.html


Graceseeker

though you quoted, what according to you, The most obvious one is Psalm 16:10

you still have doubt!!....

I suspect that Paul was not referring to one particular passage

but I understand why you still doubt,as what you quoted can't help and can't convince the reader whether a christian or not ,that it is a Resurrection prophecy...

[Follower]

The scripture that Paul is talking about is the Gospel!

[Follower]

Still all that aside, can the Quran stand the test?

[_ALI_]

Salam

There are four major rules for proving the credibility of documents.

First of all, those 4 rules are not universally accepted. They were just given by a Christian. The 4 rules are a bit lenient.

One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events?

Like I said, too lenient. Now incase of Quran, Quran was revealed in stages and after the death of prophet Muhammad, the Revelation was available both orally and written down on various materials. Its internal order was known to the Muslims and strictly observed by them. But in the battle of Yamama, faught by the first Caliph Abu Bakr and a false prophet Musailima, some of the Qurra (people who had memorized the whole Quran) were killed. So Abu Bakr was advised by Umar (who later became the 2nd Caliph) that Quran should be collected in one piece. At first, Abu Bakr was hesitant since the prophet never did that, and it is very important for Muslims to follow the prophet. However, Umar convinced Abu Bakr that collecting Quran in one piece is good for Muslims. They assigned Zaid Bin Thabit for the task. The whole story is narrated in In Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201 by Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:

Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart).
The Hadith further continues and in the end it is narrated
The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.
Hence Quran passes the first condition with ease. Now coming to the Bible, we don't even know for sure about the writers of Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ezekiel, Mathew, Luke, Hebrews etc, how can we be sure that the authors were eyewitnesses?

Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence?

That really long story regarding Quran proves that it passes this point with ease. As for the Bible, we don't even know about the Authors, how can we know about the witnesses? And as for the link you gave, just because a part of the Bible may have independant witnesses doesn't mean that every chapter of the Bible has witnesses.

Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives?

Again, same argument as used above. And Quran also passes this test. No person who knew Quran by heart ever contradicted the copy Hazrat Hafsa had.

Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred?

With the Bible, we are having a problem of witnesses, hostile witnesses is out of the question. And referring to that link, just because a part of the Bible may have a hostile witness doesn't mean that the whole Bible has hostile witnesses. The Bible only gives the example of Paul for this 4th point. We have a corresponding example of Hazrat Umar.
According to an early story, recounted in Ibn Ishaq's Sīrah, `Umar resolved to assassinate Muhammad.[8] On the way to assassinate Muhammad, Umar met a Muslim who told him to set his own house in order first, as his sister and her husband had converted to Islam. Upon arriving at her house, `Umar found her reciting verses of the Qur'an. When he listened carefully to the Sura's verses, he was so impressed that he accepted Islam that very day.copied from wikipedia

If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable. With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility."

As I proved, the 4 factors hold for the Quran but not for the Bible. To be honest, I don't think that if a document passes this 4 factor test, it suddenly becomes historically reliable because this test is too lenient. For a document to be historically authentic, for starters, it should not contradict itself. The Bible does that many times.
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
Three (I Chronicles 21:12)
5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)
6. How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?

Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)
7. How long did he rule over Jerusalem?

Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)
8. The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?

Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)
Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)
9. When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?

After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)
10. How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?

Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)
These are a few of the many contradictions. As for the Quran, there is not a single contradiction

004.082 أَفَلا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلافًا كَثِيرًا
004.082 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions.

Al-Qur'an, 004.082 (An-Nisa [Women])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Peace

[Follower]

LOL!! the old 101 contradictions!
Not really contradictions if you were to study His Word:

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther Answers all the supposed contradictions. Before throwing arround those accusations you should google contradictions of the Quran and study those.

Actually we were talking New Testament. The Quran can not stand up in regards to the crucifixion of Jesus.

There are no eyewitnesses mentioned in the Quran to tell us what happened at the crucifixion. All we know iis that the Jews are bragging about it, but they are not responsible. How do we know that the Jews were even bragging about it?

The Books of the Gospels give us various accounts of the same event.

Hostile would be the historians of Jesus' day that were not Christian.

[Imam]

The scripture that Paul is talking about is the Gospel! .

Where did you get that from?!!!!!

[B]Actually we were talking New Testament. The Quran can not stand up in regards to the crucifixion of Jesus.There are no eyewitnesses mentioned in the Quran to tell us what happened at the crucifixion.
.

That's weird .....eyewitnesses to something never happened?!!!

who is supposed to support his assertions with eyewitnesses the one that claims or the one that negates?

The Books of the Gospels give us various accounts of the same event. .

various accounts but all untrustworthy,cause all are based on the contradictory hearsay accounts.

check here
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-jesus-3.html

[Grace Seeker]

That's weird .....eyewitnesses to something never happened?!!!

who is supposed to support his assertions with eyewitnesses the one that claims or the one that negates?

various accounts but all untrustworthy,cause all are based on the contradictory hearsay accounts.

check here
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-jesus-3.html

I would be interested in the list of eyewitnesses (or even earwitnesses) who can testify that it was indeed the angel Jibrael who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh). And who are the people that can verify that message the angel gave Muhammad is the same that he then recited for those who wrote down the Qur'an?

[Imam]

I would be interested in the list of eyewitnesses (or even earwitnesses) who can testify that it was indeed the angel Jibrael who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh). And who are the people that can verify that message the angel gave Muhammad is the same that he then recited for those who wrote down the Qur'an?

Then you agree with my post that the crucifiction-resurrection accounts of the gospel all untrustworthy? don't you?

you make a false analogy ...... we don't have a contradictory hearsay accounts of the angel Jibrael who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh) in order for you to make analogy.... that is totally another issue....

who ever bother what happens during the process of inspiration ?
one should bother of the fruit of the inspiration , whether it is inerrant,miracelous or not.....

Who would ever ask how Jesus been inspired by his message ?! who would ask for eyewitnesses for the process of the inspiration to the prophets?!!....

What are you looking for,seeker?!!

We let the work speaks of itself ,whether being inspired or not.....
and the New Testament spoke loudly of his errancy ...... and one of the top reasons the link I have provided...

would you defend it?

Why the christians whenever the Bible to be criticised, resort to the Quran,is something beyond me!!!

[Grace Seeker]

Then you agree with my post that the crucifiction-resurrection accounts of the gospel all untrustworthy? don't you?

No. But that is irrelevant. This thread is about the Qur'an. Since you asked questions about the Gospel, I thought we might try posing some similar (not intended to be identical) questions of the Qur'an.

Why the christians whenever the Bible to be criticised,they resort to the Quran,is something beyond me!!!

Because this is a thread about the Qur'an. Why in a thread about the Qur'an, Muslims begin to question the integrity of the Bible is beyond me!!! (No, I do get it, Follower opened the door to those questions with his opening post.) Imam, you opened the door to questions about the Qur'an with your post; you also meticulously avoided answering them.

Plainly put, how do you know two things:
1) that the Qur'an you read today is identical to the one that Mohammad (pbuh) is supposed to have received? Who/where are the witnesses that can personally testify to this?
2) that the communicator of the Qur'an to Mohammad was actually the angel Jibreel and not some other source. Again, who/where are the witness that can testify to this event?

These are major claims that Islam makes about the Qur'an, claims that are part of the Qur'an itself, and yet to the best of my knowledge there is no independent testimony for this most crucial of all events in the transmittal of the Qur'an. All that is foundational to Islam is simply taken on faith that what Muhammad says about the origins of the Qur'an are in fact true.


Now, one may cite to me proofs such as:

And this quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. 10:37

But I find such "proofs" to be nothing more than a self-serving circular argument. Such quotes are about as valid for "proving" the Qur'an as 2 Timothy 3:16 --"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." -- is for proving that the Bible is the word of God. Which is to say that neither of these verses prove anything to anyone but those who are already believers in them.

[جوري]

The Quran has stood the test of time, no greater testament than the number of converts to Islam yearly, to the number of dropouts from Christianity, the question should better be phrased, can the 'NT' withstand another 50 yrs without some instant find in the deserts of Syria to amend it, or how to embellish it to shove down throats the concept of the man/god hovering spirit who descended to be ineffectual at least in saving his own self for something as anti-climactic as eating people's sins so they are free to do as they please...
Islam goes with science and nature and 'fitrah' of man whereas Christianity is very counter intuitive to nature.. the more stories you have to amend and concoct the least likely that there is any truth in it..

all the best

[جوري]

I think this is an excellent addition to this thread that deals with amongst other things the law of combinatorics which delves fathoms deeper into other facets of the Quran

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post196431

[Grace Seeker]

I still await for someone to address the question of witnesses that I have raised. Who is able to testify to the veracity of Muhammad's claim that the message he delived came from an angel and is in fact the same message that was given to him? How do we know that what we have received as the Qur'an is in fact the same recitation that Muhammad is supposed to have received? Where are those who can testify of their own knowledge that this is so?

[جوري]

The Quran is its own testament..
you need not see the bee to know from whence came the honey!

[Grace Seeker]

The Quran is its own testament..
you need not see the bee to know from whence came the honey!

As predicted:

Now, one may cite to me proofs such as:

And this quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. 10:37

But I find such "proofs" to be nothing more than a self-serving circular argument. Such quotes are about as valid for "proving" the Qur'an as 2 Timothy 3:16 --"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." -- is for proving that the Bible is the word of God. Which is to say that neither of these verses prove anything to anyone but those who are already believers in them.

[جوري]

As predicted:

I am glad for you!

[Follower]

LOL!! Oleander you have to read the Gospel. It is in the Gospels!

Secular historians say the crucifixion happened.

[YusufNoor]

I would be interested in the list of eyewitnesses (or even earwitnesses) who can testify that it was indeed the angel Jibrael who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh). And who are the people that can verify that message the angel gave Muhammad is the same that he then recited for those who wrote down the Qur'an?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

it was not my intent to get mixed up in this thread, nor do i feel that i have left this question unanswered in past threads, HOWEVER, the question is once poised again, so i will attempt, In Sha'a Allah, to offer a brief answer:

The Qur'an itself therefore provides indications as to the fact that it was set down in writing at the time of the Prophet. It is a known fact that there were several scribes in his following, the most famous of whom, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, has left his name to posterity.

In the preface to his French translation of the Qur'an (1971), Professor Hamidullah gives an excellent description of the conditions that prevailed when the text of the Qur'an was written, lasting up until the time of the Prophet's death:

"The sources all agree in stating that whenever a fragment of the Qur'an was revealed, the Prophet called one of his literate companions and dictated it to him, indicating at the same time the exact position of the new fragment in the fabric of what had already been received . . . Descriptions note that Muhammad asked the scribe to reread to him what had been dictated so that he could correct any deficiencies . . . Another famous story tells how every year in the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole of the Qur'an (so far revealed) to Gabriel . . ., that in the Ramadan preceding Muhammad's death, Gabriel had made him recite it twice . . . It is known how since the Prophet's time, Muslims acquired the habit of keeping vigil during Ramadan, and of reciting the whole of the Qur'an in addition to the usual prayers expected of them. Several sources add that Muhammad's scribe Zaid was present at this final bringing-together of the texts. Elsewhere, numerous other personalities are mentioned as well."

source:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...thenticity.htm

when the Qur'an was written down, plus:

At the same time however, Muhammad recommended that the faithful learn the Qur'an by heart. They did this for a part if not all of the text recited during prayers. Thus there were Hafizun who knew the whole of the Qur'an by heart and spread it abroad. The method of doubly preserving the text both in writing and by memorization proved to be extremely precious.

Not long after the Prophet's death (632), his successor Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam, asked Muhammad's former head scribe, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, to make a copy. this he did. On Omar's initiative (the future second Caliph), Zaid consulted all the information he could assemble at Madina: the witness of the Hafizun, copies of the Book written on various materials belonging to private individuals, all with the object of avoiding possible errors in transcription. Thus an extremely faithful copy of the Book was obtained.

that is only offered as "evidence"as i am attempting to answer the question on short notice. one should take up a study on the history of the Qur'an if one is genuinely interested in this knowledge. however if one is merely attempting to "refute Islam," i have written more than enough.

you will also find, if you study the Seerah [life] of the Messenger of Allah, pbuh, that Companions of the Messenger were indeed present when WAHY [Revelation] came down, though not necessarily witness to Gabriel s presence.

HOWEVER, we also have the "Jibril Hadeeth:"

from Buklhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 300:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

One day while Allah's Apostle was sitting with the people, a man came to him walking and said, "O Allah's Apostle. What is Belief?" The Prophet said, "Belief is to believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the meeting with Him, and to believe in the Resurrection." The man asked, "O Allah's Apostle What is Islam?" The Prophet replied, "Islam is to worship Allah and not worship anything besides Him, to offer prayers perfectly, to pay the (compulsory) charity i.e. Zakat and to fast the month of Ramadan." The man again asked, "O Allah's Apostle What is Ihsan (i.e. perfection or Benevolence)?" The Prophet said, "Ihsan is to worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you do not achieve this state of devotion, then (take it for granted that) Allah sees you." The man further asked, "O Allah's Apostle When will the Hour be established?"

The Prophet replied, "The one who is asked about it does not know more than the questioner does, but I will describe to you its portents. When the lady slave gives birth to her mistress, that will be of its portents; when the bare-footed naked people become the chiefs of the people, that will be of its portents. The Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah. Verily, the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs." (31.34) Then the man left. The Prophet said, "Call him back to me." They went to call him back but could not see him. The Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...ml#006.060.300

from 40 Ahadeeth:

"While we were one day sitting with the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, there appeared before us a man dressed in extremely white clothes and with very black hair. No traces of journeying were visible on him, and none of us knew him.

He sat down close by the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, rested his knee against his thighs, and said, O Muhammad! Inform me about Islam." Said the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, "Islam is that you should testify that there is no deity save Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger, that you should perform salah (ritual prayer), pay the zakah, fast during Ramadan, and perform Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah), if you can find a way to it (or find the means for making the journey to it)." Said he (the man), "You have spoken truly."

We were astonished at his thus questioning him and telling him that he was right, but he went on to say, "Inform me about iman (faith)." He (the Messenger of Allah) answered, "It is that you believe in Allah and His angels and His Books and His Messengers and in the Last Day, and in fate (qadar), both in its good and in its evil aspects." He said, "You have spoken truly."

Then he (the man) said, "Inform me about Ihsan." He (the Messenger of Allah) answered, " It is that you should serve Allah as though you could see Him, for though you cannot see Him yet He sees you." He said, "Inform me about the Hour." He (the Messenger of Allah) said, "About that the one questioned knows no more than the questioner." So he said, "Well, inform me about the signs thereof (i.e. of its coming)." Said he, "They are that the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress, that you will see the barefooted ones, the naked, the destitute, the herdsmen of the sheep (competing with each other) in raising lofty buildings." Thereupon the man went off.

I waited a while, and then he (the Messenger of Allah) said, "O 'Umar, do you know who that questioner was?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "That was Jibril. He came to teach you your religion.""

http://fortyhadith.iiu.edu.my/hadith02.htm

the question has been addressed.

:w:

[جوري]

^^ I stopped answering with interest, as I don't see the Quran and the 'bibles' to be on the same level.. if anything we can compare if at all it would be the ahadith as they are narrated and even those have a system of isnad which is lacking in the bibles..

:w:

[Imam]

Imam, you opened the door to questions about the Qur'an with your post; you also meticulously avoided answering them..

I answered the question, but let me make it clearer for you

you ask; where are the witness that can testify to that the communicator of the Qur'an to Mohammad was actually the angel Jibreel and not some other source?

and I answered ; the book itself is more than convincing for me to be from a divine source..... If a book proved to be inerrant,miracelous,with fulfilled prophecies one can't help but to believe in its divine source


Now you wonder ...If only Mohamed had witnesses that can testify to that his communicator of the Qur'an was actually the angel Jibreel and not some other source..
As if your doubt of his message which you been taught from your early years of childhood ,would all of a sudden evaporates,once you read the testimonies !!

I will give you a living example of why the testiminies of the eyewitnesses who see,hear the angels would never convince such who been brought up doubting the message of someone claiming prophethood..

if you'll get a copy of the Book of Mormon, and open it, you'll see the testimony of the eight witnesses who swear that they didn't see the angel bring the plates(the Golden Plates that the Angel Moroni allegedly brought down to Joseph Smith) down but they handled them with their hands.
"And we also know that they [that is, the words in the Book of Mormon], have been translated by the gift and power of God for His voice hath declared it unto us. Wherefore, we know of assurety that the Work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings [these are the Golden Plates that the Angel Moroni allegedly brought down to Joseph Smith]. They say, we saw them. "And they have been shown unto us by the power of God and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness that an angel of God came down from heaven and he brought and laid before our eyes...." And he goes on to, and they go on to say, "and we saw it." "We touched them." "We handled them." "We know that it happened."


How such first hand testimony from the witnesses helped those who doubt the book of Mormons? .

Do you believe that an angel authenticated the Book of Mormon?

No you don't and me too...


and the reason (for me at least) that I believe the extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs ........

in other words what may authenticate the Book of Mormon is the book of Mormon ,what may authenticate the Quran is the Quran etc......

another point to be well taken , How would witnesses like that know that the figure in contact with Mohamed was an angel?
can't the devil took a form claiming to be angel and dellude both?!!
yes he can......
but he can't teach him such amazing work (The Quran)...

In other words again what matters is the fruit of the inspiration not the process itself...

But I find such "proofs" to be nothing more than a self-serving circular argument. Such quotes are about as valid for "proving" the Qur'an as 2 Timothy 3:16 --"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." -- is for proving that the Bible is the word of God. Which is to say that neither of these verses prove anything to anyone but those who are already believers in them...

I can't agree more ...

and that strengthen more and more my point...... any text should offer more than assertions to be valid ..

what is the use of dozens of verses in the bible claiming it to be inspired, or even dozens of witnesses that the holy spirit had a contact with Jesus in front of them during inspiration, if the text itself errant ,having nothing to support its claims to be divine?

I wish you no longer believe in such flawed argument (witnesses for the process of inspiration to validate the work) and instead using mine (The work validates itself)....

[Oleander]

LOL!! Oleander you have to read the Gospel. It is in the Gospels!

Secular historians say the crucifixion happened.

>>>LOL, too many people saw Elvis Presely years after he die.

[Grace Seeker]

>>>LOL, too many people saw Elvis Presely years after he die.

Yes, he is living in a nursing home in Michigan. His roommate is JFK, who is confined to a wheelchair. :D

Now, how many of those who have posted said stories have given their lives to substantiate them? Those who claimed to have seen the risen Christ did, when they could have confessed it as a hoax and lived.



As for those who have sought to answer my question(s) about witnesses, a serious thank-you. I don't have time this weekend to read with the depth some of you have answered, but hope to be able to digest it more thoroughly next week.

[Follower]

http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm

It seems plain to me, that if Muslims accept a higher criticism of the Bible - they must accept a higher criticism of the Qur'an. And if they are to reject the Gospels as inauthentic records because of slight variances in our manuscripts - they must dismiss the 'Gospel of Jesus' as myth[91] - because there are no manuscripts. If Muslims believe that any variance in the texts of revelation is a sure sign that a revelation is not from God - then the Qur'an is surely not of God. If Muslims maintain that there has been a grand conspiracy of history and that the testimony of the witnesses cannot be trusted - then no one can trust the verbal records of the Hadith - recorded centuries later. And yet if the Hadith are accurate, the Qur'an does have variances. Plainly, Muslim apologists cannot deny the authenticity of the Biblical text - without undermining all support for the Quranic text. Plainly Muslim apologists need some new arguments. Some better arguments. Some arguments that will discredit the Bible - without destroying the Qur'an.

[coddles76]

http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm

It seems plain to me, that if Muslims accept a higher criticism of the Bible - they must accept a higher criticism of the Qur'an. And if they are to reject the Gospels as inauthentic records because of slight variances in our manuscripts - they must dismiss the 'Gospel of Jesus' as myth[91] - because there are no manuscripts. If Muslims believe that any variance in the texts of revelation is a sure sign that a revelation is not from God - then the Qur'an is surely not of God. If Muslims maintain that there has been a grand conspiracy of history and that the testimony of the witnesses cannot be trusted - then no one can trust the verbal records of the Hadith - recorded centuries later. And yet if the Hadith are accurate, the Qur'an does have variances. Plainly, Muslim apologists cannot deny the authenticity of the Biblical text - without undermining all support for the Quranic text. Plainly Muslim apologists need some new arguments. Some better arguments. Some arguments that will discredit the Bible - without destroying the Qur'an.

Very Simple.
The bible is full of contradictions were the Holy Quran has NONE Verfying the authenticity of the true message of Allah SWT, his true words and message because only a perfect message can be contributed to Allah SWT.

[Hamayun]

http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm

It seems plain to me, that if Muslims accept a higher criticism of the Bible - they must accept a higher criticism of the Qur'an. And if they are to reject the Gospels as inauthentic records because of slight variances in our manuscripts - they must dismiss the 'Gospel of Jesus' as myth[91] - because there are no manuscripts. If Muslims believe that any variance in the texts of revelation is a sure sign that a revelation is not from God - then the Qur'an is surely not of God. If Muslims maintain that there has been a grand conspiracy of history and that the testimony of the witnesses cannot be trusted - then no one can trust the verbal records of the Hadith - recorded centuries later. And yet if the Hadith are accurate, the Qur'an does have variances. Plainly, Muslim apologists cannot deny the authenticity of the Biblical text - without undermining all support for the Quranic text. Plainly Muslim apologists need some new arguments. Some better arguments. Some arguments that will discredit the Bible - without destroying the Qur'an.

After reading this thread I wonder... if only people put this much effort into working together for something constructive the world would be a better place.

All I see is bicker... bicker.. bicker.. :exhausted

[YusufNoor]

http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm

It seems plain to me, that if Muslims accept a higher criticism of the Bible - they must accept a higher criticism of the Qur'an.

that's a baseless conclusion.we have reasons for rejecting your text.

And if they are to reject the Gospels as inauthentic records because of slight variances in our manuscripts - they must dismiss the 'Gospel of Jesus' as myth[91] - because there are no manuscripts.

we reject them because they are not contemporaneous to the time of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's Peace and Blessing's be on the both of them.

If Muslims believe that any variance in the texts of revelation is a sure sign that a revelation is not from God - then the Qur'an is surely not of God.

again, baseless, even Christians don't believe that the "New Testament" is direct Revelation from God. why don't you argue with them?


If Muslims maintain that there has been a grand conspiracy of history and that the testimony of the witnesses cannot be trusted - then no one can trust the verbal records of the Hadith - recorded centuries later.

you are no longer [excuse me, the author you are copying] comparing Qur'an and the Bible

And yet if the Hadith are accurate,

ditto

the Qur'an does have variances. Plainly, Muslim apologists cannot deny the authenticity of the Biblical text - without undermining all support for the Quranic text.

so somehow you see a correlation between documents written decades after the fact and Contemporaneous Memorization of A Revealed Message in it's ORIGINAL LANGUAGE AND FORM?

Plainly Muslim apologists need some new arguments.
Some better arguments.

actually it is YOU who came here to ARGUE!

Some arguments that will discredit the Bible - without destroying the Qur'an.

we don't argue, we merely state fact. and wre are not really about discrediting the bible, rather WE PROMOTE THE QUR'AN!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

You and your fellow Kafirs do not have even the slightest understanding of WHY the Qur'an was written down in the 1st place! for the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam and his Companions, RadiaAllahu Anhum, the "Book of Allah" wasn't written down "as a book." the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, would have at least one of the scribes write each new Revelation down and instructed them as to the proper placement in the Qur'an.

the Arabs themselves, for the most part, COULD NOT READ OR WRITE! they relied on MEMORY! hence, THEY MEMORIZED THE QUR'AN! it was revealed over a period of 23 years and the last Revelation was within a few months of the Prophet's, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, death.

DURING THE ENTIRE LIFE OF THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, THERE WERE THOSE WHO MEMORIZED ALL OF THE QUR'AN, CALLED Hafz, or Huffaz for plural.

it was ONLY after A LARGE NUMBER of HAFZ were Martyred in the Battle Aqraba, that Umar ibn Al Kittaab, RadiAllau Anhu confronted the Kalifa, Abu Bakr As Siddiq, RadiAllahu Anhu, with the idea of "collecting" the Qur'an as a written document. and if you think Abu Bakr, May Allah be Pleased with him thought it was a great idea, YOU WOULD BE WRONG! Abu Bakr REFUSED! after all, A)the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, NEVER ORDERED the Qur'an to be collected in one written document and B) THEY DIDN'T NEED IT!

ONLY AFTER LONG DEBATE, DID Kalifa Abu Bakr As Siddiq, RadiAllahu Anhu, agree to have the Qur'an preserved in this manner! Zaid ibn Thaabit, RadiAllahu Anhu, the Messenger's personal scribe was charged with the task. he was order to ONLY USE THE AYATS WERE WRITTEN DOWN IN THE PRESENCE OF the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam.

if you think your "New Testament", contains ANYTHING written down in the presence of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, please produce it along with the evidence!

also, the current estimate of those who have the Qur'an memorized is over 8,000,000!

i would venture to guess that the amount of "Christians" that have "Bible" memorized "in it's original languages" is well, ZERO! NOT A ONE! ANYWHERE! [and i'm leaving Muslim Dr Zakir Naik out of this]

posting CRAP from "orientalists" websites merely shows that you are here to argue and start trouble. why don't you go learn your own polytheistic/ henotheistic/ paganistic religion for yourself and whomever else you would like to lead astray. and of course, do it elsewhere!

:w:

[alcurad]

the qur'an's method of transmission and preservation is the best one that could have been achieved as such, much better than most texts of it's time in that area. there is a minimum level of uncertainty that is to be ignored, otherwise one would endlessly keep asking without getting answers. how do you validate anything at that, even if you saw it it could all be brains in vats..

[Follower]

"we reject them because they are not contemporaneous to the time of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's Peace and Blessing's be on the both of them."

LOL! poor arguement for the Quran was not compiled until after Mohammad died so we do not really know what was left out and then they were all burned except for a few select copies!!

But the Gospels are- Paul mentions that very scripture in his writings and he died in 67AD

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

Yes and some that had memorized the verses were killed in battle and it was know by Aiasha that verses were missing.

Did you know the communist countries people memorized pages of the Gospel in order to keep it alive during those years of rule.

One of Muslims biggest problems though is that the Quran confirms the Gospel.

Did I not add the link to those statements sorry here is it: http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm

[Joe98]

You and your fellow Kafirs do not have even the slightest understanding of WHY the Qur'an was written down in the 1st place!

You do not have the slightest understanding of the bible

If you think your "New Testament", contains ANYTHING written down in the presence of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, please produce it along with the evidence!

You’re question makes absolutely no sense!

There was no story to write down until after Jesus died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Only then was there a story. Therefore it was impossible to write it in his presence.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were men. They were witnesses to events.

Afterwards they travelled far and wide telling people the things they had witnessed.

Years after the events, people had the idea of writing it down. Hence it’s not possible to write it down in the presence of Jesus or Mary.
-

[Joe98]

also, the current estimate of those who have the Qur'an memorized is over 8,000,000!

But do any of them understand it?

Questions about the Koran on this forum and others are answered with "we are not scholars - only a scholar can answer the question".

Questions about the bible and christianity can be answered in one word "Love".

Therefore christianity is very easy to understand.
-



-

[YusufNoor]

"we reject them because they are not contemporaneous to the time of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's Peace and Blessing's be on the both of them."

LOL! poor arguement for the Quran was not compiled until after Mohammad died so we do not really know what was left out and then they were all burned except for a few select copies!!

anyone with the slightest understanding of how the Qur'an was revealed, would realize that as long as the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam was alive, the was Revelation which could be part of said Qur'an! doesn that mean that the Qur'an wasn't written down in his lifetime? NO, it just means that it couldn't be considered COMPLETE until AFTER he dies!


But the Gospels are- Paul mentions that very scripture in his writings and he died in 67AD

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

the "Scriptures" that the Jews used WERE NOT the Gospels! they were what's known as the Old Testament to you, the Tanakh to the Jews! get a clue! the Christians didn't decide they need their own "book" until AFTER they stopped associating with the Jews!



Yes and some that had memorized the verses were killed in battle and it was know by Aiasha that verses were missing.

there were Hafz both before and after the battle!

Did you know the communist countries people memorized pages of the Gospel in order to keep it alive during those years of rule.

YES, but we are talking about the ENITIRE Quran in it's ORIGINAL language! did even ONE of the communists even KNOW the original language of the Gospel of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon the both of them?
this thread is comparing the "Bible" NOT the Gospels!

One of Muslims biggest problems though is that the Quran confirms the Gospel.

where the New Testament puts Jesus/Isa ibm Marriam, Alayhe Salaam as a Prophet and NOT God, the 2 may be in agreement. but as Christians did away with the ACTUAL MESSAGE of Jesus and substituted a Message ABOUT Jesus, the works are of no value.

Did I not add the link to those statements sorry here is it: url]http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm[/url]


oh, the link was there, it is a bullsh*t site where the discuss English translations of the Qur'an. we refer to these enemies of Islam as orientalists. i DID address this in my post!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

so i reckon you didn't bother to read my post!

the Qur'an is a, are you ready for this, A RECITATION! you RECITE IT! Abu Bakr As Siddiq DID NOT WANT TO PUT IT IN WRITING! it was not considered necessary!

MUSLIMS RECITE THE QUR'AN! DAILY! we recite it in prayer and in Ramadhan, it is recited in it's entirety during Prayer! and WHEN it is recited, if the Imam makes a mistake, he is corrected!

before the Hijrah, the Muslims were required to pray for one third to one half the night! 2 Rakahs, that meant that the spent the majority of the night in Qiyam RECITING QUR'AN!

after that, and with the exception of Surah Yusuf, the Revelation can down in verse form or as a few verses!

the Sahabah, RadiAllahu Anhum had the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe was Salaam in their presence! they were overjoyed to be with him and it was their understanding that the MOST IMPORTANT thing that you could do was LEARN TO RECITE AND TEACH QUR'AN! orientalists never add that as part of the equation!

:sl:

[YusufNoor]

You do not have the slightest understanding of the bible

and you, as an atheist, consider yourself an expert! and as English doesnt; appear to be your 1st language, we are comparing the TEXTS and whether or not they can be authenticated. and i DO have some idea about that! OK Joey

You’re question makes absolutely no sense!

English not your first language Joe? does it look like a question to you?

There was no story to write down until after Jesus died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Only then was there a story. Therefore it was impossible to write it in his presence.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were men. They were witnesses to events.

that's your knowledge of the authorship of the gospels, eh!? i bumped another thread for you!

Afterwards they travelled far and wide telling people the things they had witnessed.

Years after the events, people had the idea of writing it down. Hence it’s not possible to write it down in the presence of Jesus or Mary.

that's what i've been trying to explain, you have gospels ABOUT Jesus NOT from Jesus!

-

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i would love to hear more on how atheists are EXPERTS on the bible! justy do it in another thread!

:w:

[Joe98]

that's what i've been trying to explain, you have gospels ABOUT Jesus NOT from Jesus!

Good! So you are now agreeing with the Christians!

Christians say, that the gospel of Mark for example, was writen by Mark or his followers.

Muslims claim, the gospel came from Jesus, was written by Mark or his folklowers and then it was corrupted.

So you can see, that you are agreeing with the Christians.
-




-

[YusufNoor]

Good! So you are now agreeing with the Christians!

Christians say, that the gospel of Mark for example, was writen by Mark or his followers.

and NOW, you are not sure who wrote it, eh?

Muslims claim, the gospel came from Jesus, was written by Mark or his folklowers and then it was corrupted.

So you can see, that you are agreeing with the Christians.
-
-

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

CLOSE, but no cigar Joey!

the Muslim position would be:

Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, pbuh, was born of a Virgin[Marriam] came and preached and was a mighty Messenger of Allah. when he finished delivering his Message [from Allah], he was raised into the heavens alive.

his preaching contained 2 things:

1) Glad Tidings, Good News [re Gospel]

2) Warnings

Christians discarded this, lost it, or corrupted into a mix of Pagan & Polytheistic beliefs.

if you think that was Mark, that is YOUR business. btw, the oldest texts of Mark(?) end with a former Adulteress chatting with an Angel. there is NO risen Jesus in it!

:w:

[Joe98]

An exercise in understanding christianity:

Please fill in the blank.

I say that Christians claim, Marks's gospel was wttten by Mark or by his followers


You say that Christians claim, Mark's gospel was written by [.................]

-

[YusufNoor]

An exercise in understanding christianity:

Please fill in the blank.

I say that Christians claim, Marks's gospel was wttten by Mark or by his followers


You say that Christians claim, Mark's gospel was written by [.................]

-

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

this is why i bumped the other thread, so i could just copy what i wrote before:

Regarding the authorship of Mark:

From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 199: “According to” Lindsey P. Pherigo in the introduction to the Gospel According to Mark:

Authorship. Tradition has given the author of this gospel the name Mark. From Early times he has been identified as John Mark, kinsman of Barnabas; and many scholars today accept this identification, largely on the basis that a gospel would not be attributed to remote a witness unless he was actually the author. However, if a gospel author named Mark was otherwise unknown, there would be strong tendency to identify him with any known early Christian of that name, even with one so little authority as John Mark.

Careful study of the book itself makes it difficult to believe that the author was John Mark of Jerusalem, because he seems to treat both Palestine and Palestinian Judaism as an outsider. His attitude towards the 12 and his reflection of the Pauline viewpoint…make it probable that he was a prominent member of the Gentile Christian community. His background must have been liberal Hellenistic Judaism rather than that of Jerusalem. The strong Semitic coloring of his writing can be attributed to sources he used rather than his own experience.

There is no reason to doubt much a tradition that the author derived much of his information about Jesus from the sermons of Peter, bit it must be remembered that he presents this information from a Gentile Christian point of view, and he includes much that did not come from apostolic memory at all. In Gentile Christianity a great deal of reliance was placed on learning of Jesus from O(ld) T(estament) statements believed to be about him.

we CAN conclude from this that Christians ARE NOT in agreement is assigning authorship to said John Mark! thus when you or anyone else claim it is a fact or a truth, you're either wrong, unsure or deliberately misleading those that you claim it to.

unquote!

:w:

[Imam]

[I]
But the Gospels are- Paul mentions that very scripture in his writings and he died in 67AD

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

so you continue the argument that Paul,s saying (according to the Scriptures) refering to the 4 gospels?

again,where did you get that from?

One of Muslims biggest problems though is that the Quran confirms the Gospel.

be specific and show us verses,instead of giving links of long readings....

[Joe98]

we CAN conclude from this that Christians ARE NOT in agreement is assigning authorship to said John Mark!

Yes Christians agree with that comment

that's what i've been trying to explain, you have gospels ABOUT Jesus NOT from Jesus!

And yes Christians agree with that comment.

And so it is we all agree together. The gospels were not written by Jesus. They were written about Jesus’s life.

Christians claim they were written by the witneses to Jesus's life or written by the followers of those witnesses.
-

[Follower]

LOL!! Imam - you really need to read the Bible!!

First read this to get the reality of who Paul [Saul] was:

Acts 9
Saul's Conversion
1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.

11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."
15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?" 22Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ.
23After many days had gone by, the Jews conspired to kill him, 24but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.

26When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him. 30When the brothers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.

31Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.

Aeneas and Dorcas
32As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the saints in Lydda. 33There he found a man named Aeneas, a paralytic who had been bedridden for eight years. 34"Aeneas," Peter said to him, "Jesus Christ heals you. Get up and take care of your mat." Immediately Aeneas got up. 35All those who lived in Lydda and Sharon saw him and turned to the Lord.
36In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor. 37About that time she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room. 38Lydda was near Joppa; so when the disciples heard that Peter was in Lydda, they sent two men to him and urged him, "Please come at once!"

39Peter went with them, and when he arrived he was taken upstairs to the room. All the widows stood around him, crying and showing him the robes and other clothing that Dorcas had made while she was still with them.

40Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. 41He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive. 42This became known all over Joppa, and many people believed in the Lord. 43Peter stayed in Joppa for some time with a tanner named Simon.

[Imam]

LOL!! Imam - you really need to read the Bible!! First read this to get the reality of who Paul [Saul] was:
.

Follower ,Follower

The reality of Paul whatever it might be would not answer me question.....

what you claimed is certainly flawed , ask even the christians in the board.......

noone ever dare to claim that Paul knew the writers(s) of the gospels,or even ever read them..... for lots of reasons which bible scholars are aware of....

I could post the details of such issue ...... but the fact you dont even know the well established facts in the field of bible scholarship ,I doubt you would be qualified to have a positive two sided discussion in such issue....


while you advice me of the need to read the Bible

I would advice you to read and UNDERSTAND the bible before you post.

[Grace Seeker]

Originally Posted by YusufNoor

that's what i've been trying to explain, you have gospels ABOUT Jesus NOT from Jesus!

Exactly! And do you know why that is important? Because the good news is not in what Jesus said, it is in what Jesus did.

[جوري]

Exactly! And do you know why that is important? Because the good news is not in what Jesus said, it is in what Jesus did.

What did Jesus do other than allegedly forsake himself in a self-immolating moment.. It must all have been a part of his plan to abrogate his laws through his nemesis Saul, just to send the masses into further confusion?!

[Grace Seeker]

What did Jesus do other than allegedly forsake himself in a self-immolating moment..?!

Are you asking me to articulate the Christian Gospel?

[جوري]

I am asking you for what "jesus' did in a nut shell, not what paul wrote!

[Grace Seeker]

Accordıng to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus came to save that which was lost and the means by which he accomplishd this was suffering, dying, and then being raise to life again.

The message of Peter, John, Stephen and other preachers of the church immediately after Pentecost (and before the conversion of Paul) was that, to those who believed, forgivesness of sins was available in Christ's name because of what Jesus had done.

[جوري]

Accordıng to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus came to save that which was lost and the means by which he accomplishd this was suffering, dying, and then being raise to life again.

The message of Peter, John, Stephen and other preachers of the church immediately after Pentecost (and before the conversion of Paul) was that, to those who believed, forgivesness of sins was available in Christ's name because of what Jesus had done.

How about the word according to Jesus not Tom, dick and larry?
and what do you reckon was 'lost'? It seems Jews have a more defined role in religion to play and in fact after the Tom dick and harry all was lost (i.e) the majority of old testament laws!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

How about the word according to Jesus not Tom, dick and larry?

As I already said, the Gospel as understood by Christians is NOT found in what Jesus said, but in what Jesus did. You then asked me for what Jesus did, but to not quote Paul. I complied with your request.

[جوري]

As I already said, the Gospel as understood by Christians is NOT found in what Jesus said, but in what Jesus did. You then asked me for what Jesus did, but to not quote Paul. I complied with your request.

So I guess we are back to what did Jesus do aside from self-immolate and abrogate his own laws through his known nemesis?

All the best

[YusufNoor]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

to the topic of the thread:

"There are four major rules for proving the credibility of documents. One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events? Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence? Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives? Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred? If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable. With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility."

we see an effort to persuade us the the Bible is the standard that we should compare the Qur'an against. the premise is ridiculous as what is referred to as "the Bible" fails the tests mentioned about. in the case of the New Testament, we see Christians scholars confirm this. in the case of the Torah, we have Jewish Scholars that supply then evidence.

as we are dealing with the polytheistic and pagan Christians, let's see what THEIR OWN SCHOLARS have to say [and btw, these are posts that i've put here in the past, i'm just copying and pasting]:

we see it implied that John Mark IS the author of the Gospel According to Mark.

Regarding the authorship of Mark:

From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 199: “According to” Lindsey P. Pherigo in the introduction to the Gospel According to Mark:

Authorship. Tradition has given the author of this gospel the name Mark. From Early times he has been identified as John Mark, kinsman of Barnabas; and many scholars today accept this identification, largely on the basis that a gospel would not be attributed to remote a witness unless he was actually the author. However, if a gospel author named Mark was otherwise unknown, there would be strong tendency to identify him with any known early Christian of that name, even with one so little authority as John Mark.

Careful study of the book itself makes it difficult to believe that the author was John Mark of Jerusalem, because he seems to treat both Palestine and Palestinian Judaism as an outsider. His attitude towards the 12 and his reflection of the Pauline viewpoint…make it probable that he was a prominent member of the Gentile Christian community. His background must have been liberal Hellenistic Judaism rather than that of Jerusalem. The strong Semitic coloring of his writing can be attributed to sources he used rather than his own experience.

There is no reason to doubt much a tradition that the author derived much of his information about Jesus from the sermons of Peter, bit it must be remembered that he presents this information from a Gentile Christian point of view, and he includes much that did not come from apostolic memory at all. In Gentile Christianity a great deal of reliance was placed on learning of Jesus from O(ld) T(estament) statements believed to be about him.

endquote

we CAN conclude from this that Christians ARE NOT in agreement is assigning authorship to said John Mark! thus when you or anyone else claim it is a fact or a truth, you're either wrong, unsure or deliberately misleading those that you claim it to.

and to reemphasize what was already posted in this thread:

i found this interesting commentary this morning, i'll share parts of it with you:

The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible (1971) page 664:

The Gospel According To Mark by Lindsey P. Pherigo

Introduction

Relation to Mathew And Luke. Literary analysis of the agreements and differences among the first 3 gospels has established that Mark was the earliest of the 3 and was used independently by both Matthew and Luke as their major source of information about the life of Jesus…The fact that the 2 later gospels have incorporated practically all of it in their accounts indicates that they intended to replace Mark rather than simply to supplement it…

Date and Occasion. The tradition that Mark put together his gospel after the death of Peter on the one hand and the manner of its use by Matthew on the other limit the date of the writing to the period from AD 64 to ca 75…

[this was MOST interesting and revealing!]

During the whole period in which this gospel could have been written, Christianity was in transition from it’s original home in the Semitic culture of Palestinian Judaism to the Gentile culture of the Roman Empire. The older Christianity held tenaciously to the traditional Jewish customs (such as circumcision and the food laws), but the newer (Gentile) version abandoned these entirely. More significantly, the older Christianity understood Jesus mainly under the Jewish concept of the Messiah, whereas the newer found more meaning in him as a divine being, the Son of God, Lord and Savior. The older view clung to the Semitic concept of religion as obedience to God’s Will, whereas the newer openly abandoned this as hopeless by man’s own effort and espoused a religion which redeemed man from his slavery to sin by and act of God’s Grace( the Christ event).

i checked to see if this was written by Muslims, but the cover says:

“Seven years of planning and research, the most up-to-date archaeological information, and the latest technological developments have been used in preparing this one-volume commentary.

Seventy scholars-Protestant, Roman Catholic and Jewish-have contributed fresh, new interpretations of the ageless truths of the Bible.
The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible is designed for use by laypersons, ministers, librarians, college and seminary professors and students – anyone who enjoys studying the Bible.”

speaking for myself, i CAN say that i DO enjoy using The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible! :happy:

furthermore, regarding the authorship of the Gospels themselves:

From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 1994: Howard Clarke Kee, in his introduction to the Gospel According to Matthew in the section titled: Authorship. From the 2nd Century down to the present, Christians have believed that the first gospel in the NT was also the first to be written and that the author was Matthew the tax collector, a disciple of Jesus. The source of this persistent belief can be traced back as far as circa A.D. 130, when Papias, a bishop in Hierapolis, a city in Asia Minor, wrote a work titled “Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord.” His writing, which is known only from fragments quoted by later Christian writers, reports that Matthew, the disciple, compiled the sayings of the Lord in Hebrew. Those that have quoted Papias seem to have accepted his statement without question as referring to the First gospel.

There are several difficulties with this assumption, however. (a) The gospel consists of a rather full account of Jesus’ public ministry, not merely a series of sayings. (b) Detailed analysis of Matthew shows that the author used Mark as one of his sources. (c) Mark and therefore Matthew, for which Mark was a source were written in Greek, not Hebrew. In view of these difficulties, it is plausible to assume that Papias was referring, not to Matthew, as we know it, but perhaps to a now lost collection of sayings of Jesus.

If we do not accept Papias’ theory, then we must acknowledge that we have no evidence for the origin of Matthew and no assurance of the author’s name. The gospel itself makes no such claim; indeed all the gospels are anonymous. Later tradition has attached names for convenience, but we should recognize that authority of the writings rested in the power of the message, not in the personal authority of the author

so to summerize, ALL the Gospels were anonymous and the names were given mainly for convenience. Matthew MAY have been the author of "Q", that sounds reasonable however in light of the other information

what about the Gospel of John?

Regarding the alleged authorship of John:
From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 1994:
According to Massey H. Shepard, Jr., in his introduction to the Gospel According to John in the section titled:Author. The acceptance of the gospel in the NT canon in the late 2nd to early 3rd century was a seal of acceptance of its authorship by John son of Zebedee, one of the 12 apostles of Jesus. Though contested at that time, this official view held the day without serious challenge until recent times; and is still stoutly defended by many able scholars, Catholic and Protestant. Its strongest support is the testimony of Irenaeus, who claimed to have received the tradition firsthand, when a youth, from Polycarp.

The tradition would perhaps be stronger if it did not claim too much, for in addition to the gospel it places under John’s authorship the three letters and Revelation. Distinguished theologians of the ancient church, Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria and Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea were doubtful that the same hand produced both the gospel and Revelation. They were keen enough to note the differences in these writings both of literary style and of doctrinal viewpoint. They resorted thereafter to a 2-John hypothesis: (a) the apostle, who wrote the gospel and the letters; and (b) a “disciple of the Lord,” who composed Revelation. Support for this thesis was found in a book of Oracles of the Lord by Bishop Papias of Hierapolis, a contemporary of Ignatius and Polycarp, who distinguished 2 Johns: (a) an apostle, one of the 12; and (b) a disciple, who lived in his own times. Papias was conversant with all the “Johannine” writings, though he preferred oral to written traditions. But it is not clear from the surviving fragments of his work to what John he ascribed the books under that name. Many modern scholars reverse the judgment of Dionysius and Eusebius by ascribing Revelation to the apostle – as did Justin Martyr, - and the gospel and the letters to the “disciple.”

The gospel itself has an appendix has an appendix (ch. 21), which includes a colophon (vss. 24-25) ascribing the “witness” of the gospel to the unnamed “beloved disciple” who lay close to Jesus’ breast at the Last Supper (c.f 13:23-25; 20:2; 21:20-24). No reader of the gospel who was not familiar with the Synoptics and Acts would identify the “beloved disciple” with John, or with either of the “sons of Zebedee,” who are mentioned only in the appendix (21:2). But the church in Asia made this identification, as is clear not only from the testimony of Irenaeus but more especially from a letter of bishop Polycrates of Ephesus (ca. 190) preserved by Eusebius. In listing the “great luminaries” who have “fallen asleep” in Asia, Polycrates mentions first Philip the apostle, whom he confuses with Philip the evangelist of Acts, and his daughters and then John, “who leaned on the Lord’s breast, who was a priest, wearing the sacerdotal breastplate, both martyr and teacher. It is notable that he does call not John an apostle, as he does Philip!

The colophon (21:24-25) distinguishes 2 stages in the composition of the book: the “disciple” who bears witness, and “we” who attest to the truth of his testimony. This suggests a posthumous publication by disciples, or an editor, of the eyewitness disciple. Indications of editorial revision have often been noted---e.g. 2:21-22; 4:2 seem obvious, not to speak of the appendix itself. There are abrupt transitions both of the geography and of discourse. Chapter 6 would seem to make more sense if it preceded chapter 5.The dangling summons of 14:31 “Rise, let us go hense,”intrudes in the middle of a long discourse; and the logic of argument and exposition in chapters 7; 8; 10 is curious. There is no manuscript evidence to support any transpositions of the text; nor is there evidence that the gospel ever circulated without the appendix. Nonetheless editorial work seems plausible.

There is a growing consensus that the author – whether “disciple” or “witness” had access to good historical traditions stemming from Palestine, no less than the writers of the Synoptic gospels. His facts, as well as his interpretation must be taken seriously. He knew the geography of Palestine and the customs of the Jews better than Mark, and he may have had Judean associations more immediate than those of the Synoptic writers.

He was undoubtedly a Jew, one whose native tongue was the Aramaic spoken by Jesus. He thinks and writes in a Semitic idiom; and the sayings of Jesus he records, however different in style from those of the Synoptics, betray the same Semitic parallelism of structure. Yet he writes a clear and grammatical Greek. Efforts of some scholars to prove that the gospel was translated from Aramaic have not won general acceptance. His Hellenistic culture has perhaps been exaggerated, but it was not negligible. He was more than match for his theological opponents.

to summarize, it MIGHT be John OR ANOTHER John, but AT LEAST it was a Jew. that is, if there was only 1 author...

i never got around to the section on Luke, BUT seeing as we are going through this exercise, let me quote a short bit:

From The Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible Including the Apocrypha with General Articles Copyright 1971 by Abingon Press 15th Printing 1994 by William Baird:

Authorship: ...Although these data could explain the rise of Lukkan tradition [ie, that Luke the Physician is the author of not only Luke but Acts as well], the matter is much more complex. The "we sections" can be explained on other grounds, and inconsistency with Paul's letters raises the question whether Acts could have been written by any companion of his. Actually the traditional identification of the author is of no great importance. In no case can he be recognized an an eyewitness of events in the career of Jesus...

in summary:

in seven years of planning and research, using the most up-to-date archaeological information, and the latest technological developments in preparing this one-volume commentary, Seventy scholars-Protestant, Roman Catholic and Jewish-have contributed fresh, new interpretations of the ageless truths of the Bible.

all this research tells us that:

1) ALL the Gospels were anonymous and the names were given mainly for convenience

2) the actual...traditional identification of the author[s] is of no great importance

3) and that The fact that the 2 later gospels have incorporated practically all of it in their accounts indicates that they intended to replace Mark rather than simply to supplement

4) in the late 2nd to early 3rd authorship of some was [still] contested at that time

5) the earliest Gospel author derived much of his information about Jesus from the sermons of Peter, HOWEVER it must be remembered that he presents this information from a Gentile Christian point of view, and he includes much that did not come from apostolic memory at all!

and the reason for the transformation of the Gospel OF Jesus into MYTHS ABOUT him is that:

6) Christianity was in transition from it’s original home in the Semitic culture of Palestinian Judaism to the Gentile culture of the Roman Empire.

7)The older Christianity [read: first Christians] held tenaciously to the traditional Jewish customs (such as circumcision and the food laws),

8)but the newer [apostate] (Gentile) version abandoned these entirely.

9) More significantly, the older Christianity understood Jesus mainly under the Jewish concept of the Messiah,

10)whereas the newer found more meaning in him as a divine being, the Son of God, Lord and Savior.

so what happened is that:

11)The [Original Followers of Jesus/ nee Muslims] clung to the Semitic/Abrahamic concept of religion as obedience to the One True God’s Will,

12 whereas the newer [openly polytheistic pagan converts] openly abandoned this as hopeless by man’s own effort and espoused a [ BRAND NEW MUTATED] religion which redeemed man from his slavery to sin by and act of God’s Grace( the Christ event)

which is, not only what Islam has stated in the First place! Islam itself is a return to the Semitic/Abrahamic concept of religion as obedience to the One True God’s Will

Allahu Akbar!

:w:

[Follower]

LOL! So why did the Quran confirm the Gospel? It is the very one that Paul referenced in 67AD and the same one in use in 300AD and 600AD and today!!

Who wrote the Quran?!? Who compiled the verses after Mohamad died?

Gossamer Skye- You mock Jesus giving His life in payment for your sins?

You misunderstand Paul.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

John 10
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Jesus willingly sacrificed Himself for us.

[جوري]

'

Gossamer Skye- You mock Jesus giving His life in payment for your sins?

.

You need to do something about your outbursts of "LOL's" it silly, don't you think?

Jesus didn't give up his life, least of which for my sins.
my sins are my cross to bear!

Br. Yusuf has done an excellent job replying, I suggest you read before posing the same silly questions?

all the best

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yea that lolling was getting to me :/

[جوري]

Yea that lolling was getting to me :/

I was starting to think it is a tick of some sort :uuh:

:w:

[Follower]

LOL!! I am a very happy person.

We know that Gossamer by her own account has said "Yes I am Grouchy". I am sorry I am so happy and you are so grouchy. Why are you?

Why do Muslims feel they must attack me personally?

[Follower]

If it was a tick or Tourettes would I be less of a person?

[جوري]

If it was a tick or Tourettes would I be less of a person?

No, but seek treatment!
There are many meds out there to help!

all the best

[naseem]

In the present and future era, the Quraan al-Hakeem is an outstanding proof of the prophethood of Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam. It is also a proof that the Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam was the Final of the Prophets and Final of the Messengers of Allah. Before giving proof from the Holy Quraan, I must clarify the fact that those in doubt about the Divine nature of the Quraan are of two types:
1. Those who are sincere to themselves. Their doubt is due to lack of knowledge. We have sympathy with them and answer their questions and arguments with due respect. We believe that it is our duty to explain the truth to them. Perchance they may understand and then try to protect themselves from the everlasting punishment in the Hereafter.

2. The second type of people who are doubtful about the Quraan are those who are not sincere to themselves. Their doubts are not based on lack of their knowledge. Rather they knowingly plan to create doubts in the minds of other people trying to make others astray. We are not supposed to waste our time with them because they will never show satisfaction and will always try to turn the facts upside down.

I will quote an example of such stubborn people from the Miraculous Quraan, that is the Book of All Mighty Allah which has answer to every question and solution to every problem at all places and times.

Once the Prophet Ibrahim alaihi salaam invited the King Namrood to believe in the existence and oneness of All Mighty God Allah. The King Namrood (who had claimed to be God and did not believe in the existence and oneness of All Mighty God Allah) asked about the qualities of Allah. Prophet Ibrahim alaihi salaam said: “My Lord is He Who gives life and death.” The stubborn king said that he also could give life and death. To prove this, he freed a man who was sentenced to death and arrested a free non-criminal man and killed him. The Prophet Ibrahim alaihi salaam understood the stubbornness of the stupid king and didn’t argue with him in that question anymore but said to him, “but It is Allah who makes the sun rise in the east. You make it rise in the west.” At this question the rejecter of faith remained confounded. But in spite of that he continued his denial of God. So Allah subhaanahu wa ta’ala said: “Allah does not guide the unjust people.” That means: Allah has given freedom of choice to mankind to choose truth or falsehood. If a person knowingly rejects the truth of the Islamic faith, then Allah will leave him immersed in falsehood. It is not the principle of Allah to force people to choose the Right and true Path of Islam. See verse 258 of Surah Al-Baqarah in the Holy Quraan.

Our duty is to answer questions, clarify any misunderstandings or doubts based on lack of knowledge. But when we find a stubborn fellow, who has himself chosen the Path of Hell and has decided to stick to it, we should leave him on that path.

Some facts about the Divine Nature of the Miraculous Quraan:
Allah said in Surah (chapter) Al-Qalam (the Pen):

Nun, (I swear) by the Pen and by that which (they) write, that you are not mad by the Grace of your Lord. And surely for you is a Reward not ending. And you are on an Exalted Standard of Character. Soon you will see and they will see, which of you is afflicted with madness. (Translation of the first 6 verses of Surah Al-Qalam)

As we can see, in these verses Allah All Mighty God swore by the pen and the Statement of the Holy Quraan that was written with pen. Allah swore for the High Status of the Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam and said that soon you (o Muhammad) will see and the unbelievers will also see and know who among you is afflicted with madness.

Allah Subhaanahu wa Ta’ala swore by the pen and the verses / statement of the Holy Quraan because this statement was going to be a Grand and Outstanding Proof of the True and Final Prophethood of Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam.

Now everybody can see that the Holy Quraan is absolutely preserved and will remain preserved and unchanged until the end of this world in spite of the drastic attempts of the enemies to change it.
I put forward only one question to those who doubt about the Holy Quraan that it is the Book of Allah:
Why couldn’t the opponents of the Quraan even change the letter nun (N), the letter with which the chapter Al-Qalam starts? That is a challenge. None could change it and no one can change it till the end of this world!

Until now no one could change even the letters nun (N), Sad (S) and Qaaf (Q) at the beginning of the chapters Al Qalam, Saad and Qaaf in the Holy Quraan. This is because Allah All Mighty promised to preserve it.

The preservation of the Holy Quraan by Allah is also a proof of the Finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam. So that the Final Book of guidance remains unchanged till the end of this world and the unbelievers / rejectors will have no plea for their unbelief on the Day of Accounting/Judgment.

Allah said in the Holy Quraan that every living thing is created from water. This is a fact which is discovered now by science.

Allah said in chapter 51 (Al-Dhaariyaat) verse 47 that He (Allah) created the Heaven and He is expanding it (increasing in vastness). Only today’s scientists discovered the fact that the universe is expanding and increasing in vastness like a balloon which expands when air is blown into it.

The present scientists have put forward a theory about the creation of the world. It says that the heaven and the earth were joined in a ball-like structure when a BIG BANG occurred and the ball broke into pieces to make the universe.

In chapter 21 (the Prophets) verse 30, Allah said: do not the unbelievers see that the Heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation) before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

In this verse Allah Subhaanahu Wa Ta’ala not only revealed the fact about the creation of the Heavens and the earth, but also addressed and questioned indirectly those unbelievers who know this fact, that is, the present scientists. This is the Miraculous status of the Holy Quraan that 1430 years ago Allah informed His Final Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam in verse 30 of Chapter Al-Anbiya (The Prophets) about the following things:
1. the heavens and the earth ( the world ) was created from one piece of creation by a big bang.
2. great scientists will discover this fact (about the big bang) (by scientific knowledge that Allah gave them.)
3. these scientists will be unbelievers.
4. so Allah questioned them “will they not then believe” (in the prophethood of Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam and in the Holy Quraan as the Heavenly Book after seeing its Miraculous status. (That means that Allah informed the Prophet Sallallaho alaihi wasallam about the facts that would be discovered 1430 years after Quraan’s revelation.

It is our duty to present this verse (verse 30 of Surah 21) to the scientists. Most probably they will enter the fold of Islam, Insha-Allah.

The above mentioned points prove that The Quraan is a Book of Allah for the guidance of man-kind so that they can struggle hard to protect themselves from the everlasting Hell. We sincerely advise every reader of this post to think seriously about their life in the HEREAFTER and try to protect themselves from Hell.

[Follower]

Actually the miracle that is the Quran proves nothing except that Mohammad had access to great scribes. He could easily be an illiterate poet. There is hadith about the scribes suggesting the wording of verses and Mohammad taking the advice.

One thing I have noticed in the Quran, Allah swears by his creations and things lesser then himself. Allah never swears by Himself as YHWH does.

Jeremiah 22
5 But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' "

There are many websites that have disproved the science of the Quran

[جوري]

Actually the miracle that is the Quran proves nothing except that Mohammad had access to great scribes.

Really, who were they? we must give them a standing ovation

He could easily be an illiterate poet.

Except that the Quran isn't a book of poetry!

There is hadith about the scribes suggesting the wording of verses and Mohammad taking the advice.

Bring it forth then!

One thing I have noticed in the Quran, Allah swears by his creations and things lesser then himself. Allah never swears by Himself as YHWH does.

Allah takes a vow in the negative, (i.E) I need not call your attention to! do you want to go one on one in Arabic grammar?

Jeremiah 22
5 But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' "

What palace, what ruins? who is your lord? the man who committed suicide? amazing he can put a palace to ruin but not save himself?

There are many websites that have disproved the science of the Quran

All refuted, but you have no interest in reading!

all the best!

[Grace Seeker]

What palace, what ruins? who is your lord? the man who committed suicide? amazing he can put a palace to ruin but not save himself?

What/who are you talkıng about?

[جوري]

What/who are you talkıng about?

You should direct that question to your pal follower!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

I'm talking about your reference to suicide.


You have described Jesus as self-immolating before, and I have not disagreed with it because Jesus did indeed participate in a deliberate and willing sacrifice of himself (though it wasn't by fire, which is the usual form of self-immolation). But there is, I think, a distinction between the self-immolattion of the sort that Jesus accepted as necessary to complete his mission and suicide. For instance, one does not say that a soldier who sacrificed his own life so that others of his comrades might live committed suicide. So, when you speak of suicide above, I am at a loss as to whom you are referring?

[جوري]

I'm talking about your reference to suicide.


You have described Jesus as self-immolating before, and I have not disagreed with it because Jesus did indeed participate in a deliberate and willing sacrifice of himself (though it wasn't by fire, which is the usual form of self-immolation). But there is, I think, a distinction between the self-immolattion of the sort that Jesus accepted as necessary to complete his mission and suicide. For instance, one does not say that a soldier who sacrificed his own life so that others of his comrades might live committed suicide. So, when you speak of suicide above, I am at a loss as to whom you are referring?

When a 'solider' sacrifices his life for those of others there is usually something tangible to be seen as gained. When your God Jesus self-immolated, thereby committed suicide, nothing was gained save for breech of God's original commandments through his nemesis Saul and a million sect!

all the best..

[Grace Seeker]

When your God Jesus self-immolated, thereby committed suicide, nothing was gained save for breech of God's original commandments through his nemesis Saul and a million sect!

So, you were referring to Jesus. As self-immolation is not understood to be the same as suicide, you may want to decide which term you are going to use to describe Jesus' death and then stick with it. As for what was gained by his death, non-Christians would surely assert nothing. But Christians assert that by his death Jesus accomplished reconcilation between God and mankind, thereby gaining the possiblity of our salvation.

[Hamayun]

by his death Jesus accomplished reconcilation between God and mankind, thereby gaining the possiblity of our salvation.

Which God???

I thought Jesus was God for you? He died to accomplish reconcilation between himself and mankind??? :?

A God who died? :?

How very strange!!!

[جوري]

So, you were referring to Jesus. As self-immolation is not understood to be the same as suicide, you may want to decide which term you are going to use to describe Jesus' death and then stick with it. As for what was gained by his death, non-Christians would surely assert nothing. But Christians assert that by his death Jesus accomplished reconcilation between God and mankind, thereby gaining the possiblity of our salvation.

actually I stand by suicide, your God committed suicide for apparently no good reason other than a creative story that your swine loving elders concocted .. what a shame .. the day that 'God' died and still life went on!


all the best

[Follower]

Well my post was dumped, I was getting too close to the truth. The information was from Islam itself. Sad day for Muslims when all history is rewritten.

This is an interesting verse:
34:50
Say: "That if I became misguided so but I misguide on my self, and if I was guided, so with what my Lord inspires/transmits to me, that He truly is hearing/listening, near/close."

If Mohammad was misguided there are a whole slew of people that have been misguided. If Uthmann was misguided?

Muslims will never be able to truly test the Quran and must follow it on blind faith. Funny that is what Christians are accused of. Muslims are just not ready at this time.

The Bible has withstood the test- Gospel and Torah even confirmed by the Quran.

This thread can be closed.

[Zafran]

Well my post was dumped, I was getting too close to the truth. The information was from Islam itself. Sad day for Muslims when all history is rewritten.

This is an interesting verse:
34:50
Say: "That if I became misguided so but I misguide on my self, and if I was guided, so with what my Lord inspires/transmits to me, that He truly is hearing/listening, near/close."

If Mohammad was misguided there are a whole slew of people that have been misguided. If Uthmann was misguided?

Muslims will never be able to truly test the Quran and must follow it on blind faith. Funny that is what Christians are accused of. Muslims are just not ready at this time.

The Bible has withstood the test- Gospel and Torah even confirmed by the Quran.

This thread can be closed.

Your actaully a hypocrite here because we can use your logic against you as many men have constructed the bible
what if paul, Luke, mattew, John and mark were all misguided - that means there pauline chirstainity must have been wrong!

No the bible doesnt stand the test of time - with all the contradictions of the bible many people are seeing through the 300 AD book. What if the church fathers were misguided. You see how hypocritical your post is.

your accused of blind faith becasue of the holy Ghost and trinty which doenst make logical sense what so ever and is heavily incoherent with previous messege.


Nice try - about the gospel is said to be from God not gospels of John, matthew, mark and the rest

the Torah......are you talking the book of moses where he is being buried - give me a break.

yes this thread can be closed as Follower is using basless conjucture.

I suggest you check Bart Ehramn and see your bible has not stood the test of time. Sorry to break it to you.

The test is in the Quran - produce something like that - not been done for 1400 years i dont see test like that in your bible.

bye.

[GreyKode]

Calmed down brother Zafran this is fun,
Mr Follower's theory : Prophet muhammed (pbuh) original teachings were about the trinity
and only when uthman came he recompiled the quran and distorted the teachings.

Everybody can see through your tactics:
Muslims say : Jesus(pbuh) preached ALLAH is one but Paul preached three.
Follower says : Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) preached ALLAH is three but Uthman says one.

[Zafran]

Calmed down brother Zafran this is fun,
Mr Follower's theory : Prophet muhammed (pbuh) original teachings were about the trinity
and only when uthman came he recompiled the quran and distorted the teachings.

Everybody can see through your tactics:
Muslims say : Jesus(pbuh) preached ALLAH is one but Paul preached three.
Follower says : Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) preached ALLAH is three but Uthman says one.

The hypocricy of follower is so evident its unreal - as his book says

Matthew 7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?


so all the nonsense/conjucture in his post is evident - if he applied the same thing to his own gospel writers who didnt even claim to be prophets he would be in a mess.

[Grace Seeker]

Everybody can see through your tactics:
Muslims say : Jesus(pbuh) preached ALLAH is one but Paul preached three.
Follower says : Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) preached ALLAH is three but Uthman says one.

Finally someone who speaks the truth. Muslims do say that Jesus preach that Allah is one. And Muslims also say that Paul preached three. This is what Muslims say. Now, what does the Bible say? The Bible says that Jesus preached one God and that Paul preached one God. The Paul of the Bible never preached three anymore than Mohammed did.

By the way, according to Islam, how many names does the one God have? Do you not see the irony in objecting to Christians saying that the one God exists in three persons, but is yet just one being while proudly proclaiming that the one God has 99 names and is yet just one? I think you would object and say that we Christians don't really understand what you are saying or what Islam means if we went around accusing Mohammed of teaching worship of 99 gods because there are 99 different names for Allah. But this is exactly what you do when Islam mischaracterizes Christianity as teaching belief in 3 Gods. No where in the scriptures do they teach that. And even the theologians of later centuries did not say that, that is what people who have not understood what the theologians were actually saying have said they said, but it is not in fact what they were saying at all.

No Trinitarian believes in three gods. In fact the very concept of a polytheistic god of any sort is anathema to the correct understanding of any trinitarian theology. For the whole concept of the Trinity is exactly the opposite of that and is meant to affirm the oneness of God, even as we meet God in three unique and distinct persons known to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Therein lays one of my problems with the Qur'an and why I think it does not pass the test. It quite clearly states that Christians believe in three, but it is incorrect and shows that it misunderstands actual Christian beliefs when it makes that statement. If it is wrong in asserting what the basic beliefs of Christianity are, why should I trust it when it tells me that my faith is wrong. It doesn't reject the actual faith I have, but what it erroneously believes about Christianity. Well, I reject the Christianity that the Qur'an calls Christianity as well. However, that doesn't make Christianity false, but the Qur'an. For the Qur'an to stand the test it would have to state the truth with regard to those belief systems that it criticizes, but it does not. Rather it mis-states them.

[جوري]

By the way, according to Islam, how many names does the one God have? Do you not see the irony in objecting to Christians saying that the one God exists in three persons, but is yet just one being while proudly proclaiming that the one God has 99 names and is yet just one? I think you would object and say that we Christians don't really understand what you are saying or what Islam means if we went around accusing Mohammed of teaching worship of 99 gods because there are 99 different names for Allah. But this is exactly what you do when Islam mischaracterizes Christianity as teaching belief in 3 Gods. No where in the scriptures do they teach that. And even the theologians of later centuries did not say that, that is what people who have not understood what the theologians were actually saying have said they said, but it is not in fact what they were saying at all.

God has 99 names that we know of and that is the operative word.. they are the attributes of Allah swt -- such as, the most merciful, The Compassionate, The Beneficent, The Source of Peace, the Guardian of Faith, The Great Forgiver amongst many..Do any of those say Jesus? and the hovering spirit? each with its own will, one creator and one immolate(r) and one enunciation(or)? those aren't of his names or attributes so don't be a hypocrite Gene!
No one cares what you think passes the test or not, I believe the current state of Christianity is its own testament to how solid your bible and your ideology to the current climate and what is to come for Islam to re-instate the same would actually make it a false religion, such as your many other sects in Christianity who attest to the same ridiculous notion that God is divisible and ineffectual!

all the best

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Finally someone who speaks the truth. Muslims do say that Jesus preach that Allah is one. And Muslims also say that Paul preached three. This is what Muslims say. Now, what does the Bible say? The Bible says that Jesus preached one God and that Paul preached one God. The Paul of the Bible never preached three anymore than Mohammed did.

By the way, according to Islam, how many names does the one God have? Do you not see the irony in objecting to Christians saying that the one God exists in three persons, but is yet just one being while proudly proclaiming that the one God has 99 names and is yet just one? I think you would object and say that we Christians don't really understand what you are saying or what Islam means if we went around accusing Mohammed of teaching worship of 99 gods because there are 99 different names for Allah. But this is exactly what you do when Islam mischaracterizes Christianity as teaching belief in 3 Gods. No where in the scriptures do they teach that. And even the theologians of later centuries did not say that, that is what people who have not understood what the theologians were actually saying have said they said, but it is not in fact what they were saying at all.

No Trinitarian believes in three gods. In fact the very concept of a polytheistic god of any sort is anathema to the correct understanding of any trinitarian theology. For the whole concept of the Trinity is exactly the opposite of that and is meant to affirm the oneness of God, even as we meet God in three unique and distinct persons known to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Therein lays one of my problems with the Qur'an and why I think it does not pass the test. It quite clearly states that Christians believe in three, but it is incorrect and shows that it misunderstands actual Christian beliefs when it makes that statement. If it is wrong in asserting what the basic beliefs of Christianity are, why should I trust it when it tells me that my faith is wrong. It doesn't reject the actual faith I have, but what it erroneously believes about Christianity. Well, I reject the Christianity that the Qur'an calls Christianity as well. However, that doesn't make Christianity false, but the Qur'an. For the Qur'an to stand the test it would have to state the truth with regard to those belief systems that it criticizes, but it does not. Rather it mis-states them.

Well since the 99 names and attributes Question was answered hope you got that now lets talk about the trinity..The Trinity--The Trinitarian belief that God is Unity, subsisting in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost--all three are one God, equal in power and glory--represents one of the most incredible, albeit crucial conceptions in all of Christendom.

Ingersoll probably summarized the Trinitarian enigma as well as anyone when he said,

"Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity." (Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67).
"One may say with one's lips: 'I believe that God is one, and also three'--but no one can believe it, because the words have no sense." (What is Religion by Leo Tolstoy).
The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "pious fraud", and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

AND Islam totally rejects the Trinity. Allah says, in the Qur'an :
“ They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One Allah.” (Qur'an 5:73).
So, while Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam.In fact, the message of Islam, is so simple, that even a bedouin nomad could understand. Whereas, christianity is so nonsensical, that no christian understands it, not even Drs in theology.Is that not what you'd expect from the truth?
PS THE book you read says no man has ever seen God and that no man can see God and live Exodus 33;20 and John 1:18 :) guess what alot of people seen jesus :D

[Grace Seeker]

Ingersoll probably summarized the Trinitarian enigma as well as anyone when he said,

"Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after.

If this is Ingersoll's summary, then Ingersoll does not understand the Trinity. The Son does not exist before he was begotten. He is begotten from before the beginning of time. There never is a time when the son was not. The son is eternal begotten of the father. Note I said "of the Father", not by the Father. The English term begotten is, in my opinion, a poor choice of words for it implies biological generation, which is not what is meant by the original Greek word used to describe the unique relationship between the Father and Son. But surely for as long as the Father has existed there has also been the Son, for without the existence of the Son there could not be said to exist a Father, for God could not rightly be described as a Father if there were no Son for him to be considered the Father of. Thus if one is eternal in nature and being, then both must be.

Tolstoy is also wrong in saying that no one can believe it, for indeed many do. That the words have no sense to him does not mean that they can have no sense for others.

As to the suggestion that 1 John 5:7 is a pious fraud, I heartily concur that the reference to the "Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost" as found in the KJV was not a part of the original text. But that doesn't mean that the concepts that led to the formulation of the doctrine are not present in the scriptures. It is not a particular phraseology on which the trinitarian understanding of God is based, it is on the whole tenor and record of scripture which presents to us very clearly that there is just one God and yet as the New Testament records, mono-theistic thinking Jewish-Christians discovered that they had experienced God not only as their Father, but in the person of Jesus and the indwelling of the God's Spirit. And in their attempt to articulate who both could be true at the same time, they articulated what we today call the Trinity. But it wasn't that they read the words saying this was so, but that they had the live experience of it being so and then wrote about it as they shared their faith story.

If others have not shared in that experience, you are not under cumpulsion to accept that it is that way. It is just our testimony of our experience, and nothing more. This is what we know of God from having met him in these three persons. But if do not have not had that experience with him, he is nonetheless the same God. And neither knowledge nor lack of knowledge about the Trinity, neither confession of nor lack of confession of the Trinity, central as it is to Christian teaching, is going to make the difference in someone's salvation.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

so are the 3 3 differnt or one

[Grace Seeker]

so are the 3 3 differnt or one

They are distinct persons, but they are of one substance and constitute one divine being.


Think of a dance if you will. Is the couple 2 different persons or one couple? As soon as you seperate them, you no longer have a dance. The dance is a couple's dance only so long as the two interact with each other as one. Though you can clearly distinguish between the distinct individuals who are the couple, the moment they become independent of the other, they are no longer a couple.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

They are distinct persons, but they are of one substance and constitute one divine being.

20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.Exodus 33;20
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.John 1:18
this is correct
?

[coddles76]

^ Grace Seeker.

I understand and I know you and I always agree to disagree but could you please explain to the crowd that if the Father the Son and the Holy spirit always existed before anything ever existed then why was it only ever mentioned when christianity was created. Why did not God (As in the trinitarian God) ever reveal himself and explain his 3 part nature ever before the creation of christianity?? The trinitarian God never exsisted before christianity and no one ever knew of him before this. I will pose the same question in the other thread aswell. Thanks

[Grace Seeker]

20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.Exodus 33;20
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.John 1:18
this is correct
?

You quoted the verses correctly. Are you asking for some sort of commentary upon them?


Coodles, I will address your post in the other thread. I'm not really sure how we got into talking about the Trinity in a thread about the Qur'an, though I suppose my comments a couple of pages back might have had something to do with that.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

You quoted the verses correctly. Are you asking for some sort of commentary upon them?


Coodles, I will address your post in the other thread. I'm not really sure how we got into talking about the Trinity in a thread about the Qur'an, though I suppose my comments a couple of pages back might have had something to do with that.

so did people not see you Lord Jesus
but anywho next
10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, [a] clear as the sky itself.exodus 24:10
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.job 42:5
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple.isaiah 6:1

its 3 against 2 who wins?

[Grace Seeker]

its 3 against 2 who wins?

I can help you out with some more such quandries if you like. For instance did or did Moses not see the face of God?

Exodus 33:11
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Exodus 33:21-23
21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."


But now that we have done that, did you have a comment? a question? or seek a response to something in particular?

[أبو سليمان عمر]

I can help you out with some more such quandries if you like. For instance did or did Moses not see the face of God?

Exodus 33:11
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Exodus 33:21-23
21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."


But now that we have done that, did you have a comment? a question? or seek a response to something in particular?

well talk on other thread

[Follower]

"Mr Follower's theory : Prophet muhammed (pbuh) original teachings were about the trinity"

I did not say that Mohammad believed in or taught the Trinity. I do believe that Mohammd believed in the Christian concepts that were called the Trinity.

The 3 different manifestations that GOD have used to approach man.

No where in the Quran is an other talked about the way Jesus is. I say whether Mohammad believed in the Trinity or not- He knew that Jesus was:

Kalimatuhu: God's Word 3:45
The word "kalimatuhu" is God's personal word which exists from eternity and is uncreated. Being eternal would also imply that Jesus is both distinct from God,eternally inseperable from God and thus God by nature.

Just as your "eternal" Quran is Allah's word. Jesus is GOD's WORD and He is supported with the Holy/Sanctimonious Soul/Spirit 2:87, 2:253

[Follower]

You really need to study a bit more about Christianity. It is not only Paul that mentions the Father, Son and Holy Spirit., but also Matthew and Jesus- This from the Gospel your Quran confirms.

Matthew 28
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

[Follower]

You keep speaking of the 300 AD book, this is the Holy Bible that contains the Gospel and Torah. I have shown that the Gospel confirmed by your Quran was in use by 67AD. We also have a very small portion of original Gospel from 125AD.

Really funny thing by 600AD the Holy Bible was the Book of the Christians the same from 300Ad with the same Gospels from the disciples time.

Mohammad did not say follow only the Gospel and not the other scripture that was the New Testament.

5:47
And the New Testament's/Bible's people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers .
YUSUFALI:And the New Testament's/Bible's people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

So you see this thread can be closed. I am not allowed to show proof that the Quran has been tampered with, these are on sites that are considered unislamic.

You must search for the truth yourself.

[GreyKode]

Not so fast follower. Answer me this :
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Why is this verse in the RSV version removed, and considered by the authors(who are scholars by the way) as an interpolation?

[GreyKode]

Just as your "eternal" Quran is Allah's word. Jesus is GOD's WORD and He is supported with the Holy/Sanctimonious Soul/Spirit 2:87, 2:253

How does this in any way even allude to jesus being Son of God or God himself?

[GreyKode]

The Paul of the Bible never preached three anymore than Mohammed did.

You know what I mean, I meant he preached the concept of the trinity.

[Yanal]

You (follower) started a similiar thread at another forum and you know you are going to get the same answers "that it can" I think you want to start doubts.

[Follower]

Was it me, or are there more like minded people out there?

I am hoping to find a sincere Muslim that will truly study the Quran. One that will look at the history of the Quran, question and test it.

I am not asking you to doubt GOD, I would never do that. Doubt fake history, rewritten history, false prophets, man-made traditons, etc.

The Holy Bible has the proof of fulfilled prophecies and eyewitnesses to the revelation of messages that it is from GOD.

I need proof to believe the same about the Quran. It can't just be one man saying yes I received this message.

[جوري]

Was it me, or are there more like minded people out there?

It is you!

I am hoping to find a sincere Muslim that will truly study the Quran. One that will look at the history of the Quran, question and test it.

Pretty much every practicing Muslim does that. It is the most read recited and essayed and proved book in the known world!

I am not asking you to doubt GOD, I would never do that. Doubt fake history, rewritten history, false prophets, man-made traditons, etc.

Yeah, we are all doubting your false prophets and fake man-made traditions.. do see my thread on 'has your God ever dined on swine'

The Holy Bible has the proof of fulfilled prophecies and eyewitnesses to the revelation of messages that it is from GOD.

so are most of Nostradamus'!

I need proof to believe the same about the Quran. It can't just be one man saying yes I received this message.

I doubt you need or are looking for proof.. your name says it all--'follower'

all the best

[Follower]

Not so fast follower. Answer me this :
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Why is this verse in the RSV version removed, and considered by the authors(who are scholars by the way) as an interpolation?

I am not sure what the RSV version is. Please supply a link to it. Thanks.

I use Bible Gateway http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...20;&version=8;

You can choose multiple translations. Some of course are better then others.

[جوري]

this is better.. from it we can infer that Jesus was an exclusive God for the Jews, and an ineffectual God since the Jews refused him and he went about after forsaking himself to abrogate most of his commandments by appearing to his nemesis Saul amongst others..

ernational Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

[Follower]

LOL!! You believe in Nostradamus over the Holy Bible!?! Does Nostradamus name his "god"? How do you know that Nostradamus' "god" is not satan?

Is divination not considered a sin in Islam?

You doubt the Gospel and Torah of the Holy Bible that the Quran confirms!!

Still cutting and jabbing, the fruits of your religion I suppose?

[أبو سليمان عمر]

LOL!! You believe in Nostradamus over the Holy Bible!?! Does Nostradamus name his "god"? How do you know that Nostradamus' "god" is not satan?

Is divination not considered a sin in Islam?

You doubt the Gospel and Torah of the Holy Bible that the Quran confirms!!

Still cutting and jabbing, the fruits of your religion I suppose?

the Injeel and Torah we dont doubt at all that they were here once upon a time not the book you read i doubt that 100% that is not the injeel ;) just thought you would want to know

[أبو سليمان عمر]

YOU READ THE BOOK OF matthew luke paul etc we read the book of ALLAH(GOD)

[أبو سليمان عمر]

how dare you say that corrupted BOOK OF URS is the word of GOD you should be ashamed of yourself

[جوري]

LOL!! You believe in Nostradamus over the Holy Bible!?! Does Nostradamus name his "god"? How do you know that Nostradamus' "god" is not satan?

Ha? where did you get ' believe in Nostradamus over your bible' They are in the same category in my book-- you alleging the bible's boding as a testament to its veracity is as ludicrous, that is what you should have inferred-- but then, what do I expect? you make Gods of men, why not derange meaning a mere post later?

Is divination not considered a sin in Islam?

If by 'divination' you mean prophecies, those uttered by the Prophet as pertains to the future and end of the world events then NO!

You doubt the Gospel and Torah of the Holy Bible that the Quran confirms!!

You should read before you write.. The injeel given the man Jesus, is not the bible that you hold where your forefathers assert fairy tales of men/gods!

Still cutting and jabbing, the fruits of your religion I suppose?

I have no idea what that means, but then I have come to know you as someone who derives great satisfaction out of the most asinine conclusions!

all the best

[Follower]

The Torah and Gospel in the Bible is the very same Gospel and Torah that existed in 300, AD 600 AD to today. We know that Paul and Polycarp referenced this Scripture.

Your Quran is not lying to you, who is? Who is preaching such nonsense? You know Muslims never questioned the Holy Bible until 1000 AD.

[جوري]

how dare you say that corrupted BOOK OF URS is the word of GOD you should be ashamed of yourself

I have actually posted a large piece for that other fundie with deranged manuscripts from their book as pointed out by their own theologians ..
I honestly don't know what they have to gain from this save for embarrassing themselves and repeatedly ..

The reason for their lack of success aside from obvious erroneous beliefs, is that they don't know the first thing about Islam.. browse a verse or two and then come attributing to it the meaning of their choosing and expect the rest of us to jump on the same bandwagon.. and that I assume is because they themselves don't know the contents of their own book, so by same token they assume Muslims must be the same..

the hilarity

[أبو سليمان عمر]

The Torah and Gospel in the Bible is the very same Gospel and Torah that existed in 300, AD 600 AD to today. We know that Paul and Polycarp referenced this Scripture.

Your Quran is not lying to you, who is? Who is preaching such nonsense? You know Muslims never questioned the Holy Bible until 1000 AD.

And the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) differed not amongst themselves until after clear evidence came to them.
And they were not commanded anything more than this; to worship Allah, alone (without making partners with Him in worship) and establish regular devotional prayers and pay the charity due to the poor; and this is the correct Way (way of life and religion).
[Noble Quran 98:4-5]

And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.

It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book and Al-Hukma (the knowledge and understanding of the laws of religion, etc.) and Prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allah's." On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyun (learned men of religion who practice what they know and also preach others), because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it."
[Noble Quran 3:78-79]

Do they seek other than the religious way of life of Allah (the true Islamic Monotheism worshipping none but Allah Alone), while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him shall they all be returned.
[Noble Quran 3:83]

And whoever seeks a Way of life other than submission and surrender to Allah's Will (Islam), it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

[Noble Quran 3:85]

[Follower]

Poor arguement- Muslims keep saying the Gospel given to Jesus.

LOL! The Quran given to Mohammad was written by other men, not by Mohammad

Remember that Jesus was the Gospel = Good News.

Kalimatuhu: God's Word 3:45

The word "kalimatuhu" is God's personal word which exists from eternity and is uncreated. Being eternal would also imply that Jesus is both distinct from God,eternally inseperable from God and thus God by nature.

Well kids time for me to hit the sack. Good night.

[جوري]

The Torah and Gospel in the Bible is the very same Gospel and Torah that existed in 300, AD 600 AD to today. We know that Paul and Polycarp referenced this Scripture.

You go sell that to your pals the Jews to whom your ineffectual God was sent!

Your Quran is not lying to you, who is? Who is preaching such nonsense? You know Muslims never questioned the Holy Bible until 1000 AD.

I would say you.. a liar and full of nonsense!
and funny you should say it wasn't questioned-- Given the amount of verses of the Quran warning of christian falsehood!

Again you mistake the Injeel for your bibles.. I say pls get your information about Muslims from Muslims rather than your indoctrination classes so you don't come across like such a fool with every post!

all the best

[أبو سليمان عمر]

I have actually posted a large piece for that other fundie with deranged manuscripts from their book as pointed out by their own theologians ..
I honestly don't know what they have to gain from this save for embarrassing themselves and repeatedly ..

The reason for their lack of success aside from obvious erroneous beliefs, is that they don't know the first thing about Islam.. browse a verse or two and then come attributing to it the meaning of their choosing and expect the rest of us to jump on the same bandwagon.. and that I assume is because they themselves don't know the contents of their own book, so by same token they assume Muslims must be the same..

the hilarity

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up MAYBE THEY THINK Matthew or luke will help them well MAY Allah guide them to the true deen (way of life) deen Allah deen al islam
Ameen

[جوري]

Poor arguement- Muslims keep saying the Gospel given to Jesus.

How is it poor?

LOL! The Quran given to Mohammad was written by other men, not by Mohammad

What does that mean?

Remember that Jesus was the Gospel = Good News.

Good news your God has died, and he decided to whisper his bidding to paul et al.

Kalimatuhu: God's Word 3:45

What does that mean to you? further just so you are doing this correctly, the verse states:
Be'kalmitin minh!
go run back to your fundies and have them fix it before they assign a meaning..

The word "kalimatuhu" is God's personal word which exists from eternity and is uncreated. Being eternal would also imply that Jesus is both distinct from God,eternally inseperable from God and thus God by nature.

Again wrote it wrong, but then you get everything wrong I am not surprised..

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ {45}
[Pickthal 3:45] (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).


No where does it say, he is me, my man/God.. so get a clue!

Well kids time for me to hit the sack. Good night.

yawns

[جوري]

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up MAYBE THEY THINK Matthew or luke will help them well MAY Allah guide them to the true deen (way of life) deen Allah deen al islam
Ameen

I just find them mildly humerus.. especially when he misquotes the Quran and assigns meanings left and right.. then says the same thing over and over without reading replies..
he'll have a career in telemarketing.. if he can find someone to buy what he is selling!

:w:

[أبو سليمان عمر]

I just find them mildly humerus.. especially when he misquotes the Quran and assigns meanings left and right.. then says the same thing over and over without reading replies..
he'll have a career in telemarketing.. if he can find someone to buy what he is selling!

:w:

well they will try to make their false beliefs look right useing anything they can they cant use the bible it says in there that it is not the word of God by ALL the contradictions in there they see the perfect book (Quran) and try to twist this word and that word to make them self feel better about there false beliefs

[جوري]

well they will try to make their false beliefs look right useing anything they can they cant use the bible it says in there that it is not the word of God by ALL the contradictions in there they see the perfect book (Quran) and try to twist this word and that word to make them self feel better about there false beliefs

:sl:
problem is whether or not he uses the Quran or the bible it makes no difference whatsoever.. I find their beliefs flawed at the very core, the fulcrum upon which all else rests, and the scale never tips in their directions..

It is so absurd, that you'd honestly have to leave all logic behind to accept that, God, the one who went to enunciate the birth of God, and the God born are all one in the same.
And that God wanted all of his commandments abrogated through random toms, dicks, and harries -- and then they come speak of false prophets.. if it isn't everything they preach is the works of a false prophet.

Ask him if his God wasn't circumcised, or ate pigs, or played the organ in the garden of Gethsemane.. God basically hates himself for he prays to himself and forsakes himself, for no good reason, none whatsoever.. then abrogates what he came with for centuries through various prophets through saul-- someone who wasn't even present at the last supper or chosen by Jesus!

that is what they want to sell you.. sob7an Allah 3ama yasifoon

:w:

[أبو سليمان عمر]

^^^ Mashallah you must read Alot and yes it is very sick i honestly dont know how they live with it but it is what it is. somtimes there are those who seek truth and Alhumdulillah they find it and other time well Summun bukmun AAumyun fahum la yarjiAAoona

[جوري]

^^^ Mashallah you must read Alot and yes it is very sick i honestly dont know how they live with it but it is what it is. somtimes there are those who seek truth and Alhumdulillah they find it and other time well Summun bukmun AAumyun fahum la yarjiAAoona

:sl:
funny you should mention.. 'Read' was the first verse revealed..
but you don't even need to be well read.. all you need is the faculty of reason, (God-Bestowed) Christians love to bury their head in the sand and think all is well with their religion-- but what is worst is that they expect others to buy that too .......

[أبو سليمان عمر]

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up :)

[Grace Seeker]

The Paul of the Bible never preached three anymore than Mohammed did.

You know what I mean, I meant he preached the concept of the trinity.

How can this be if, as so many have said here, the concept of the Trinity was invented during the time of Constantine? If Paul preached the concept of the trinity, then that concept cannot have been invented during the time of Constantine.

On the other hand, if I accept your proposal that Paul preached what later came to be labelled by others as the Trinity (a view I have no problem with), then I will ask you to examine whether in doing so Paul did that by teachig the unity or the division of God as one being? I submit to you that Paul never envision the concept of three seperate gods, but always affirmed the reality of only one God who was creator of all and Lord over all.

[malayloveislam]

This is what our Arian Catholic brothers said, concerning Trinity:

Nowhere in the Bible is there any reference to the trinity and Jesus never taught trinitarianism to his disciples! Tertullian of Carthage ((140-230 A.D.) a Roman Montanist heretic and the son of a Roman Centurion) first wrote about the Trinity at the end of the second century where he copied elements of Hindu and Greek ideologies, it was not formally introduced into Christianity until the first Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., which was overseen by Emperor Constantine I*. Its justification is loosely linked to different passages scattered between the Old and New Testaments, which only serve to play on ambiguities between different contextual styles, and then concluding that only God is capable of salvation. The concept of the Holy Spirit to be the part of a Trinity was completely unknown to Jesus and was never advocated by him. When Emperor Constantine supposedly embraced Christianity he insisted that the Christian Church adopted many changes so that the church would be familiar to the superstitious Romans, including the deification of Christ and the Holy Spirit, and the polytheising of God through the Trinity. Therefore the concept of the Holy Trinity was forced upon Christianity by the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.
and was wrong!

This is their view about Jesus:

Jesus Christ was not physically divine but his title was honorific of a man who was worthy of being called “Son of God”, physically human (Romans 1:3), a tzaddik orthodox Jew, and whose Spirit was chosen and sent by God as his messenger: the Angel of Great Counsel. In the Early Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, the word “Son” is not actually used but Jesus is called “Eved” which means Servant or Slave. It is clear that the early Christians were monotheistic both by instinct and by teaching. They lived in the very center of monotheistic faith and it was logically impossible for them to regard Jesus in a way which would annihilate the absolute gulf which existed in their mind between man and God. Consequently Jesus remained essentially distinct from deity. The role which they had attributed to him was of Messiah. It had a connotation which adhered to Orthodox Judaism and conformed to the Jewish nationalistic aspirations. This is obvious from Acts 1:6 when the disciples ask Jesus: “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom of Israel”? Note also in Matthew 13:57 Jesus himself admits that he is a Prophet: “And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, ‘A prophet is not without honour except in his hometown and in his own house’.”; this is repeated almost word for word in Mark 6:4

As a faithful civilian Muslim, I believe Holy Quran as the word of God. It is not the word of prophet Muhammad, he is just a conveyor of the message, a prophet, and the last messenger of Allah for the last age of the universe. Holy Quran was revealed in three stages. Many Muslims memorize Quran since the time of prophet Muhammad until today. As for the thread starter intention to stir doubt in a civilian Muslim like myself and others, it is a failure.

[Grace Seeker]

I don't know what source you are quoting above in the BOLD type, but it is not Arian Christians. You are probably quoting some contemporary source writing about Arians, but those are not the words of actual Arians, so you might want to revise your opening statement wherein you claim: "This is what our Arian Catholic brothers said, concerning Trinity." It isn't. It is from some other source about Arians, but it is most certainly not what Arians actually said.

As for the tenets of Arianism, Arius did not have any problem with the concept that a man could be God, but rather with the question of how God could in all of his fullness become a man? Arius began by reacting against what he perceived (quite correctly) to be heretical teachings that existed at the time that left no room for distinguishing the divinity of God the Father from that of God the Son. You will note that some here in LI try to force Christianity to blur those distinctions, but Arius was right in saying that we must recognize that there are distinctions between the Father and the Son. And he was also right in insisting on preserving a sharp distinction between creator and creation. However, Arius went beyond those important recognitions and began to question how God, the unknowable, immutable, transcendent one, could become fully human without being changed in the process? Yet, even asking that question did not make him heretic. But, unfortunately, driving the question for Arius was a strong Neoplatonic cosmology that sharply distinguished between an unchanging heavenly sphere of existence and the changeable created order. This dualistic starting point (which belongs to Greek philosophy, not the Biblical revelation), along with an assumption that monotheism could allow no distinction between a Father and Son within God, ultimately led him to (in my opinion) press certain biblical passages over against others. Thus Arius minimized the teachings of some scriptural texts in order to produce a version of Christianity more consistent with his presuppositions. In the process, biblical orthodoxy was sacrificed on the altar of Greek philosophy.

Now, I actually respect Arius. He was a diligent Bible student. And he truly sought to understand the biblical text. I just believe he got it wrong.

For instance, Arius did not deny that the scriptures taught that the Word was in the beginning, that the Word was with God, and that the Word even was God (John 1:1). He could still say that the Son was both human and even, in a sense, 'divine', but Arius always qualified that assertion in a crucial way. For Arius, while the divine Word of God existed before all of creation, Arius held that Word was himself created -- the first act of the Father's creation who then created the rest of all that was created. In Arius' own words: "There was [a time] when he [the Son] was not." In Arius' cosmology, instead of pre-existing with the Father, the Word has a beginning before himself going on to create the world and become a man. Thus the Word, was a creature who, precisely because he was created and begotten, could not fully know nor comprehend the mind of God. In other words, for Arius, Jesus was fully human, but not fully God.

The problem that I have with Arius' conclusion, is that to reach it one has to dismiss other passages of scripture which teach that "God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Christ]" (Colossians 1:19), "for in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9).

Athanasius was not the first to challenge Arius. Arius' own bishop, Alexander, disagreed with Arius and in 321 AD, 4 years before the Council of Nicea, declared Arius a heretic. But Arius decided to send letters out to other churches promoting his ideas and it is because of the division his letters caused that Constantine, who wanted peace and unity in his empire more than he cared for any particular theology, called for a council of the bishops to hear and resolve the dispute. 300 bishops came; two were from Rome and the rest from the eastern parts of the empire. This is worth noting, because it is in the eastern portion of the empire that Arius' views were gaining some ground, so his views would receive the most favorable hearing in this council that he might have hoped for. However, Arius' views that Christ was not divine was going to be a hard sell, even to this crowd for the church had long before proclaimed that Jesus was divine:

Ignatius: "God Himself was manifested in human form" (A.D. 105).
Clement: "It is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God" (A.D. 150).
Justin Martyr: "The Father of the universe has a Son. And He...is even God" (A.D. 160).
Irenaeus: "He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this" (A.D. 180).
Tertullian: "...Christ our God" (A.D. 200).
Origen: "No one should be offended that the Savior is also God..." (A.D. 225).
Novation: "...He is not only man, but God also..." (A.D. 235).
Cyprian: "Jesus Christ, our Lord and God" (A.D. 250).
Methodius: "...He truly was and is...with God, and being God..." (A.D.290).
Lactantius: "We believe Him to be God" (A.D. 304).
Arnobius: "Christ performed all those miracles...the...duty of Divinity" (A.D. 305).

In other words, while Arius was not alone in his views, he was definitely in the minority. When the vote was taken, it was a landside against Arius. All but three of the bishops in attendance voted against Arius and to adopt language which would clarify the church's view regarding Jesus' divine nature as: "very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father."

Some think that Constantine was the driving force behind this vote. I do not. While Constantine did call for the council, what he was most interested in was achieving harmony in his empire. The words of the council had been used by the church before Arius. Both Eusebius and Origen make use of the key term "homoousious" (meaning of one substance) in the prior century. And Tertullian is the man who is most generally credited with first coining the phrase "trinitas" (i.e., Trinity) nearly 100 years before any of those who met at Nicea were even born. Lastly, if the Emporer Constantine had favored one side over the other, I suspect he would have favored Arius, for he was later known as an open supporter of Arius and sought to have him reinstated, but Arius died before that was accomplished. So it was the bishops, voicing the overwhelming position of the church, who declared that Arius was wrong and who reaffirmed the long-held view of scripture that Jesus is indeed divine.

However, remember the key discussion at Nicea was not so much about the Trinity, as it was with regard to the question of Jesus' divinity. Arians said that Jesus was a created being. Athanasius distinguised between 'generation' and 'creation'. The Son, Athanasius said, was generated, begotten by God from eternity, but he had no beginning. This generation was eternal and internal to God, whereas creation was in time and external to God. The Son was therefore homoousious (being of the same substance) and co-eternal with the Father, not simply homoiousios (being of similar substance to God) as some of the Arians claimed. The only difference between those two Greek words is the letter 'iota'. But it is the difference between affirming that Christ is God and only saying that Christ is like God. The affirmation that Christ is God is what Nicea was all about. It would be another 50 years before the church, at the Council of Constantinople would articulate what we today call the Nicene Creed (not Nicean, as some mistakenly refer to it) with its formula in which Athanasius' rather long creedal statement is shortened to produce an affirmation of the Trinity.

[Follower]

LOL! Gone for a few days and this thread is being answered by everything but proof that the Quran is from GOD.

When Gabriel approached people in the Bible and they were frightened, Gabriel comforted them.
Luke 1
28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.

This is not the case with Mohammad- he was squeezed and pressed until he couldn't breathe.

Bukhari:V1B1N3-V6B60N478
Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me till I could not bear it any more. He asked me to read but I replied, "I do not know how to read or what shall I read?" Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, "Read in the name of your Lord who has created man from a clot. Read! Your Lord is the most generous." Then the Apostle returned from that experience; the muscles between his neck and shoulders were trembling, and his heart beating severely. He went to Khadija and cried, 'Cover me! Cover me.'

Mohammad was so upset he was going to throw himself off a cliff.

Ishaq:106 "I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and be at rest."

[Forced_In]

When Gabriel approached people in the Bible and they were frightened, Gabriel comforted them.
Luke 1
28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.
[/I]

Hello,
How do you know that the angel was Gabriel ? Is he the only angel ?

[Grace Seeker]

Hello,
How do you know that the angel was Gabriel ? Is he the only angel ?

No, Gabriel isn't the only angel, but Gabriel is idenitified by name in Luke (vs. 1:26) as being the one to deliver the message to Mary that she is going to conceive and bear a son who is to be named Jesus. That's how Follower knows that in this case the angel being referenced by Luke is Gabriel.

[جوري]

LOL! Gone for a few days and this thread is being answered by everything but proof that the Quran is from GOD.

seek treatment for your outbursts!

When Gabriel approached people in the Bible and they were frightened, Gabriel comforted them.
Luke 1
28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.

Irrelevant comment!

This is not the case with Mohammad- he was squeezed and pressed until he couldn't breathe.

Bukhari:V1B1N3-V6B60N478
Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me till I could not bear it any more. He asked me to read but I replied, "I do not know how to read or what shall I read?" Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, "Read in the name of your Lord who has created man from a clot. Read! Your Lord is the most generous." Then the Apostle returned from that experience; the muscles between his neck and shoulders were trembling, and his heart beating severely. He went to Khadija and cried, 'Cover me! Cover me.'

Mohammad was so upset he was going to throw himself off a cliff.

Ishaq:106 "I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and be at rest."

and irrelevant allegations-- further you can't quote Bukari and cement it by Ishaq (whomever Ishaq)is in this case, I assume you are referencing 'ibn ishaq'? which I doubt as your comment isn't even properly sourced, probably fed you by one of your bibliolaters who every few centuries write and disseminate deceitful info to quell the unwitting sheep into man worship... needless to say, I'll comment that 'Ibn Ishaq' is no scholar, Bukhari found him unreliable and at times objectionable
on the subject : http://books.google.com/books?id=TPb...esult&resnum=5

the book itself is written by a non-muslim, Daniel W. Brown
not that kaffirs are the expert, but at least he knows that much to be true.

but further we also see;

Ibn Isḥaq wrote several works, none of which survive. His collection of traditions about the life of Muhammad survives mainly in two sources:

• an edited copy, or recension, of his work by his student al-Bakka'i, as further edited by Ibn Hisham. Al-Bakka'i's work has perished and only Ibn Hisham's has survived, in copies. (Donner 1998, p. 132)
• an edited copy, or recension, prepared by his student Salamah ibn Fadl al-Ansari. This also has perished, and survives only in the copious extracts to be found in the volumimous historian al-Tabari's. (Donner 1998, p. 132)

Ibn Isḥaq has been accused of being a Qadari, as some have questioned his dependability.[3] Because of this, highly notable scholars including Imam Bukhari hardly ever used his narratives.[4]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq

so what do you know, you still remain incredibly under-educated.. go scurry to your master even if it be google and do a better search before your next outburst of LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

love this pic btw...

all the best

[GreyKode]

cement it by Ishaq (whomever Ishaq)is in this case, I assume you are referencing 'ibn ishaq'?

LOOOL, seriously he makes laugh. I almost fell off the chair sis G

[GreyKode]

No, Gabriel isn't the only angel, but Gabriel is idenitified by name in Luke (vs. 1:26) as being the one to deliver the message to Mary that she is going to conceive and bear a son who is to be named Jesus. That's how Follower knows that in this case the angel being referenced by Luke is Gabriel.

Hi Grace, I never knew that angel Jibreel(as) was mentioned by name in Luke.
Could you please state what the verse says(1:26).

[جوري]

LOOOL, seriously he makes laugh. I almost fell off the chair sis G

Every forum has a few motley fools.. we seem to have more than our share but they are all so D*** amusing

[Follower]

LOL!! The Pope does look ornery in that picture! I'm not catholic, never have been.

Just because Ibn Ishaq believed in free will it doesn't mean he can't be a great historian, scholar, scientist, physician. Ishaq wrote the first biography of Mohammad. Funny that Muslims accept the information furthest from the eyewitnesses.

But you do not dispute "Gabriel's" treatment of Mohammad. Where does Gabriel introduce himself to Mohammad?

forced_in -

Luke 1
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

[جوري]

LOL!! The Pope does look ornery in that picture! I'm not catholic, never have been.

Makes no difference what heretic sect you belong to!

Just because Ibn Ishaq believed in free will it doesn't mean he can't be a great historian, scholar, scientist, physician. Ishaq wrote the first biography of Mohammad. Funny that Muslims accept the information furthest from the eyewitnesses.

Ibn Ishaq is indeed all those but not a Muslim scholar.. me being a medical doctor doesn't make me an expert on quantum physics.. but then I think such concepts are too abstract for you to grasp.. further I'll say Ibn Ishaq's works were lost as cited above, makes all the claims you allege dubious, compounded of course by your lack of proper sourcing!

But you do not dispute "Gabriel's" treatment of Mohammad. Where does Gabriel introduce himself to Mohammad?

I'll tell you this much, You should read the Quran before writing, the Archangel is mentioned in there a few times, before you take me on!

forced_in -

Luke 1
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a desce

Isn't it amazing, that the Jews whom allegedly Jesus is one of, claim that he is a son of an adulterer (astghfor'Allah), are the Jewish historians wrong?


all the best

[Forced_In]

forced_in -

Luke 1
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

Hi,

Also, how do you know that Gabriel was sent to them in the same shape ?
IIRC there is a story in Quran about two angels coming to people and
teaching them magic in the soloman era. They had the shape of humans.
There is also some other stories about such incidents.

[جوري]

the whole thing is a none story.. these paganists are so desperate, that they'd take any event and assign the meaning of their choosing.

greetings, the lord is with you, Mary deeply troubled.
pressed against me until I could bear it no more..

I am really not sure what to make of it, somehow this equals to God coming down to nunciate that he is about to impregnate a woman with himself, he is to suckle, feed, go to bathroom, self immolate, self pray, self forsake, die to save us from his wrath...

a message that seems to convey no meaning whatsoever, on every level, least of which on a comparative level...

again, the hilarity of the Jesters!

[Grace Seeker]

well, the Judge is waiting which tells us which answer is valid , it is the inerrant,miraculous word of God

This was part of a comment in another thread, but I brought it here to begin this thread because it focuses for me a question I have. I think I am fairly safe in assuming that Imam was referring to the Qur'an in his statement above.

So my question is, without getting into the circular argument where the Qur'an declares itself to be true, on what basis do the Muslims on this board believe that the Qur'an and only the Qur'an truly is the miraculous word of God?

['Abd-al Latif]

Because of the way it's written (in arabic), it's eloquence, it's style, it's depth, it's parables, it's preservation, it's miracles, it's scientific accuracy, and the fact that it contains not a single contradiction, nor is there even a scientific fact that contradicts the Qur'an. Almighty God even challenges mankind (as written in the Qur'an) to write something that is equivalent the Qur'an - if mankind are in doubt about the Qur'an - and no one within the past 1430 years has ever come close to it even though people have taken up that challenge. If Prophet Muhammad (saaws) came with anything as a proof of his Prophecy and as a miracle it would be this Qur'an.

['Abd-al Latif]

Evidence that the Qur'an is the word of Almighty God - Allah.

Praise be to Allaah.

Praise be to Allaah Who has made good dear to you; we ask Him to increase you in guidance and faith, and to guide your parents to practise Islam and adhere to its rulings.

With regard to the Quraan and the proof that it is the word of Allaah, these are specious arguments which were put forward out of stubbornness and arrogance by the first kaafirs to whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent. Allaah refuted what they said in many ways, proving their words to be false and pointing out what was wrong with it. For example:

1- This Quraan is challenge from Allaah to mankind and the jinn to produce anything like it, but they were unable to. Then He challenged them to produce only ten soorahs like it, and they were unable to. Then He challenged them to produce something like the shortest soorah in the Quraan, and they could not do it, even though those who were being challenged were the most eloquent and well-spoken of mankind, and the Quraan was revealed in their language. Yet despite that they stated that they were completely incapable of doing that. This challenge has remained down throughout history, but not one person has been able to produce anything like it. If this were the word of a human being, some people would have been able to produce something like it or close to it. There is a great deal of evidence for this challenge in the Quraan, for example, the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

Say: If the mankind and the jinn were together to produce the like of this Quraan, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another ;

[al-Israa 17:88]

Allaah says, challenging them to produce just ten soorahs:

Or they say, He (Prophet Muhammad) forged it (the Quraan). Say: Bring you then ten forged Soorah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allaah (to your help), if you speak the truth!

[Hood 11:13 interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah says, challenging them to produce just one soorah:

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quraan) to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allaah, if you are truthful

[al-Baqarah 2:23 interpretation of the meaning]



2- No matter how much knowledge and understanding mankind attains, they will still inevitably make mistakes, forget things or fall short. If the Quraan were not the word of Allaah, there would be some contradictions and shortcomings in it, as Allaah says:

Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction

[al-Nisa 4:82 interpretation of the meaning]

But it is free from any shortcoming, error or contradiction; indeed, all of it is wisdom, mercy and justice. Whoever thinks that there is any contradiction in it, that is because of his diseased thinking and mistaken understanding; if he refers to the scholars they will explain to him what is correct and clear up the confusion for him, as Allaah says:

Verily, those who disbelieved in the Reminder (i.e. the Quraan) when it came to them (shall receive the punishment). And verily, it is an honourable well fortified respected Book (because it is Allaahs Speech, and He has protected it from corruption).

Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it, (it is) sent down by the All Wise, Worthy of all praise (Allaah)”

[Fussilat 41:41-42 interpretation of the meaning]



3- Allaah has guaranteed to preserve this Quraan, and He says:

Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quraan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”

[al-Hijr 15:9 interpretation of the meaning]

Every letter of it was transmitted by thousands from thousands down throughout history, and not one letter of it was altered. If any person tried to alter anything in it, or add something or take something away, then he would be exposed straight away, because Allaah is the One Who has guaranteed to preserve the Quraan, unlike the case with other divinely-revealed Books which Allaah revealed to the people of a particular Prophet only, and not to all of mankind, so He did not guarantee to preserve them, rather He delegated their preservation to the followers of the Prophets. But they did not preserve them, rather they introduced alterations and changes which distorted most of the meanings. The Quraan, on the other hand, was revealed by Allaah to all of mankind until the end of time, because the Message of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the final message, so the Quraan is preserved in mens hearts and in written form, as is proven by the events of history. How many people have tried to change the aayahs of the Quraan and deceive the Muslims, but they were quickly exposed and their falsehood was discovered, even by Muslim children.

Another of the definitive signs that this Quraan was not produced by the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) but that it came revealed by Allaah to him is the following:

4- The great miracles which the Quraan contains of legislation, rulings, stories and beliefs, which could not be produced by any created being no matter how great his intelligence and level of understanding. No matter how hard people try to promulgate laws to regulate their lives, they can never succeed so long as they are far away from the teachings of the Quraan; the further away they are, the greater their rate of failure. This is something that has been proven by the kuffaar themselves.

5- Reports of matters of the unseen, both past and future, which no human being could speak of independently, no matter how great his knowledge, especially at that time which is regarded as primitive in terms of technology and modern tools. There are many things which had not been discovered yet, and which have only been discovered after lengthy and difficult exploration with the most modern equipment, but Allaah told us about them in the Quraan, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned them, fifteen centuries ago, such as the stages of embryonic development, the nature of the oceans, etc. These things have made some kaafirs state that this could only have come from God, as in the case of the development of the embryo:

Only 60 years ago, researchers confirmed that man does not come into existence all at once, but rather he passes through stages of development one after another. Only 60 years ago, science discovered this one Quraanic fact.

Shaykh al-Zandaani said, we met an American professor, one of the greatest American scientists, whose name was Professor Marshall Johnson, and we told him that it says in the Qur’aan that man is created in stages. When he heard this, he was sitting down, but he stood up and said, Stages? We said, That was in the seventh century CE! This Book came and said, man was created in stages. He said, That is impossible, impossible We told him, Why do you say that? This Book says (interpretation of the meaning):

He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation in three veils of darkness

[al-Zumar 39:6]

What is the matter with you, that [you fear not Allaah (His punishment), and] you hope not for reward (from Allaah or you believe not in His Oneness).

While He has created you in (different) stages

[Nooh 71:14]

Then he sat back down on his chair and after a few moments he said, There are only three possibilities. The first is that Muhammad had a huge microscope through which he managed to study these things and he knew things that the people did not know, and he said these things. The second is that this happened by accident, it was a coincidence. The third is that he was a Messenger from God. We said, With regard to the first idea, that he had a microscope and other equipment, you know that a microscope needs lenses, and lenses need glass and technical expertise and other equipment. Some of this information can only be discovered with an electron microscope which needs electricity, and electricity needs knowledge which should have been acquired by an earlier generation. It is not possible for this knowledge to have been acquired all at once in a single generation; the previous generation would have had to strive hard in developing science and transmitting it to the next generation, and so on. But for this to be the work of one man, with no one coming before him or after him, either in his own land or the neighbouring lands for the Romans, Persians and Arabs were ignorant and had no such equipment for one man to have all these instruments and tools which he did not pass on to anyone else this is not possible. He said, Thats right, it would be very difficult. We said, And for it to have been an accident or coincidence, what would you think if we said that the Quraan did not mention this fact only in one verse but in several verses, and that it did not refer to it in general terms but that it gave details of every stage, saying that in the first stage such and such happens, in the second stage such and such happens, in the third stage and so on. Could that be a coincidence? When we explained to him all the details of those stages, he said, It is wrong to say that this is an accident! This is well-founded knowledge. We said, Then how do you explain it? He said, There is no explanation except that this is revelation from above! nbsp;

With regard to the many statements in the Quraan concerning the sea, some of these facts were not discovered until very recently, and many of them are still unknown. For example, these facts were discovered after hundreds of marine stations had been set up, and after images had been taken by satellites. The one who said this was Professor Schroeder, one of the greatest oceanographers in West Germany. He used to say that if science advanced, religion would have to retreat. But when he heard the translation of the verses of the Quraan, he was stunned and said, These could not be the words of a human being. And Professor Dorjaro, a professor of oceanography, told us of the latest developments on science, when he heard the aayah:

Or (the state of a disbeliever) is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with waves topped by waves, topped by dark clouds, (layers of) darkness upon darkness: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allaah has not appointed light, for him there is no light

[al-Noor 24:40 interpretation of the meaning]

He said, In the past, man could not dive to a depth of more than twenty meters because he had no special equipment. But now we can dive to the bottom of the ocean, using modern equipment, and we find intense darkness at a depth of two hundred meters. The aayah says a vast deep sea . The discoveries in the depths of the sea give us an understanding of the aayah, (layers of) darkness upon darkness. It is known that there are seven colours in the spectrum, including red, yellow, blue, green, orange, etc. When we dive down into the depths of the ocean, these colours disappear one after another, and the disappearance of each colour results in more darkness. Red disappears first, then orange, then yellow the last colour to disappear is blue, at a depth of two hundred meters. Each colour that disappears adds to the darkness until it reaches total darkness. With regard to the phrase waves topped by waves, it has been proven scientifically that there is a separation between the upper and lower parts of the ocean, and that this separation is filled with waves, as if there are waves on the edge of the dark, lower portion of the sea, which we do not see, and there are waves on the shores of the sea, which we do see. So it is as if there are waves above waves. This is a confirmed scientific fact, hence Professor Dorjaro said concerning these Quraanic verses, that this cannot be human knowledge.

(See al-Adillah al-Maadiyyah ala Wujood-Allaah by Muhammad Mitwalli al-Sharaawi)

And there are very many such examples

6- In the Quraan there are some aayahs which rebuke the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and mention some things to which Allaah drew his attention. Some of them may have been embarrassing for the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). But if this Quraan had come from the Messenger of Allaah, there would have been no need for this; if he were to conceal any part of the Quraan, he would have concealed some of these verses which contained rebukes or drew his attention to certain matters which he should not have done, such as the verse in which Allaah says to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him):

But you did hide in yourself (i.e. what Allaah has already made known to you that He will give her to you in marriage) that which Allaah will make manifest, you did fear the people (i.e., their saying that Muhammad married the divorced wife of his manumitted slave) whereas Allaah had a better right that you should fear Him

[al-Ahzaab 33:37 interpretation of the meaning]

After this, can there be any doubt left in the mind of any intelligent person that this Quraan is the word of Allaah, and that the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) conveyed that which was revealed to him in full?

Moreover, we tell this person, try it for yourself, read a sound translation of the Quraan and use your mind to ponder these rules and regulations. There is no doubt that any intelligent person who has the power of discernment will see a great difference between these words (of Allaah) and the words of any person on the face of the earth.

With regard to your relationship with this young man, this noble religion forbids women to mix with men for a great and wise reason. So you have to stop meeting him and break off your relationship with him until he becomes Muslim, in which case you can marry him in a proper Islamic marriage. In the answer to Question no. 1200 you will find an explanation of the rulings on a Muslim woman mixing with non-mahram men.

With regard to your love for him, this is a test from Allaah will you put your love of Allaah before your love for one of His creation, or will you put your love for this person before the love of your almighty Lord Who has forbidden such things. Note that whoever gives up something for the sake of Allaah, Allaah will compensate him with something better than that, the first of which is that you will find, in sha Allah, that Allaah will compensate you with comfort and tranquility in loving Him and striving to draw closer to Allaah by means of that which He loves; so your love for your Lord and your attachment to Him will increase, and your attachment to all of His creation will become weaker. In the answer to Question no. 10254 you will find some solutions to this problem.

With regard to the ruling on a Muslim woman marrying a kaafir man, this is haraam according to scholarly consensus, indeed it is one of the major immoral actions which Allaah has forbidden in the Quraan. In the answer to Question no. 8396 and 1825 you will find a detailed response to this question.

We advise you to be patient and to put up with difficulties, and to keep far away from everything that may cause you to do things that would anger your Lord. Note that Allaah has made this world a place of trial and testing for His believing slaves; whoever is patient and refrains from following his desries, seeking the pleasure of Allaah, Allaah will compensate him with Paradise where He will bestow upon him all kinds of delight which cannot be compared with the fleeting worldly pleasures that he sacrificed. This is in addition to the happiness and tranquility that he will find in his heart when he obeys his Lord.

Perhaps if he sees how you adhere to your religion and avoid meeting him and sitting with him despite your love for him, he will come to realize the greatness of this religion which makes its followers prepared to sacrifice all that they love in order to please their Lord, and that they hope for a great reward from their Lord for their patience in obeying Him and keeping away from that which He has forbidden and perhaps that will be the cause of his becoming Muslim.

We ask Allaah to guide him to Islam, and to make goodness easy for you, and to keep all evil away from you Ameen.

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/13804/word%20of%20god

[AntiKarateKid]

I'm still waiting for someone to produce something better in Arabic. God knows how many people want to disprove Islam yet haven't been able to do this.

1400 years and counting as king of Arab literature.:coolious:

"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true." Quran 2:23

[Yanal]

The Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) did not know how to read or write. So how do you think he would make the Quran from thin air if he doesn't know anything about reading or writing? Answer me and I will expand on my answer.

[glo]

The Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) did not know how to read or write. So how do you think he would make the Quran from thin air if he doesn't know anything about reading or writing? Answer me and I will expand on my answer.

Hi Alpha Jr

That is something I have never been able to understand.
Why would Muhammed not being able to read or write matter?
The Qu'ran was from the beginning spoken, recited ... no reading or writing involved, is there?

In a culture where oral tradition was very much the norm, and where knowledge was passed on through stories and verbal accounts, rather than books and written material, that doesn't seem such a special thing ... :?

Looking forwrd to your reply. :)

Peace

[جوري]

Hi Alpha Jr

That is something I have never been able to understand.
Why would Muhammed not being able to read or write matter?
The Qu'ran was from the beginning spoken, recited ... no reading or writing involved, is there?

In a culture where oral tradition was very much the norm, and where knowledge was passed on through stories and verbal accounts, rather than books and written material, that doesn't seem such a special thing ... :?

Looking forwrd to your reply. :)

Peace

The Quran that Muhammad brought, differs very much from the hadith that Muhammad brought also in the oral fashion.. and to this day no one has brought a chapter like the Quran (past or present) even if it be the shortest chapter composed only of three verses..


Hope that answers your Q

all the best

[glo]

Tand to this day no one has brought a chapter like the Quran (past or present) even if it be the shortest chapter composed only of three verses..

In what way has nobody been able to do this?
Perhaps I need an understanding of Arabic to appreciate this? :?

[جوري]

In what way has nobody been able to do this?

The criteria is set in many a Quran thread on the forum, I suggest you search for them

Perhaps I need an understanding of Arabic to appreciate this? :?

The Quran's message is transcendent to time and language -- every messenger brought something to their people that proved dynamic to their time.. Moses was able to do great miracles in a time of magic in Egypt that allowed the Pharaohs' sorcerers to concede that it is no magic..
Jesus brought healing at a time when medicine was prevalent in his time, yet it obviously surpassed all the medicine of the time and set him apart-- each messenger endowed with a gift through God that set them apart, Islam is for all of man-kind since its miracle is the Quran and that is not something that can die or be denied by history, all one needs to do is read to have their questions answered directly..

Now I know you ask many questions about the Quran and claim you have read it, I point for instance you attention to your thread on the pilgrimage where you alleged that it is a Muhammad practice given that it wasn't mentioned in the Quran, and I have in fact shown you about 20 quotes on pilgrimage including an entire chapter so entitled..

How can we discuss logically something you haven't read?

all the best

[Yanal]

Hello glo,do you still need my answer?

[glo]

The criteria is set in many a Quran thread on the forum, I suggest you search for them

I am not sure what you mean by 'criteria'.

When you said that "to this day no one has brought a chapter like the Quran" I assumed you meant in linguistic terms. Did you mean something else?

The Quran's message is transcendent to time and language -- every messenger brought something to their people that proved dynamic to their time.. Moses was able to do great miracles in a time of magic in Egypt that allowed the Pharaohs' sorcerers to concede that it is no magic..
Jesus brought healing at a time when medicine was prevalent in his time, yet it obviously surpassed all the medicine of the time and set him apart-- each messenger endowed with a gift through God that set them apart, Islam is for all of man-kind since its miracle is the Quran and that is not something that can die or be denied by history, all one needs to do is read to have their questions answered directly..

Clearly I am lacking knowledge.
I had always thoughts that the messages all prophets brought to mankind were identical, and that Muhammed's message was simply the final one - though no different to the message the others had brought before him ...

Now I know you ask many questions about the Quran and claim you have read it, I point for instance you attention to your thread on the pilgrimage where you alleged that it is a Muhammad practice given that it wasn't mentioned in the Quran, and I have in fact shown you about 20 quotes on pilgrimage including an entire chapter so entitled..

How can we discuss logically something you haven't read?

Dear Skye, I am the first to admit my lack of knowledge.
I sense that you have neither forgotten nor forgiven my ignorant questions. :-[
When I asked them they were based on my basic understanding of the Qu'ran after having read it once.
I am the first to admit that I have not studied the Qu'ran in every depth and breadth. Hence my questions may seem ignorant and silly to some. :-[

You may or may not be able or willing to trust me when I say that I do not ask questions for the sake of being cantancerous or difficult, or to upset and hurt people.
I ask questions for one reason only, to learn!

We are all on a journey together, hopefully on one which will bring us closer to God, in terms of knowledge, love and understanding.
I do not claim to be perfect, but I am plodding on. :)

God's peace to you and all.

[Yanal]

:sl:
I will still give my reply. If you say the Quran was not from Allah and the prophet made it up ,how would he? He didnt know the words that the Quran had until Allah Angel explained it. Hope that answered your question.

[جوري]

I am not sure what you mean by 'criteria'.

When you said that "to this day no one has brought a chapter like the Quran" I assumed you meant in linguistic terms. Did you mean something else?

Hence I said, there are many threads here on meeting with Quranic criteria, yes linguistics is one but certainly not the only one, else what would distinguish the Quran from an exquisite poem?
It needs to establish everything from politics, economics, social structure, belief system, inheritance, and be spiritually satisfying to name a few, and entrance people throughout all the centuries and read to me with sense and fluidity to my lifestyle as well to someone a thousand yrs ago or a thousand year from now!

Clearly I am lacking knowledge.
I had always thoughts that the messages all prophets brought to mankind were identical, and that Muhammed's message was simply the final one - though no different to the message the others had brought before him ...

Indeed the message is one thing, the way to draw people to that message is another.. I never said they have brought a different message, pls re-read what I have actually written. I said they needed something to set them apart completely from mere charlatans.. and ended with the note, any so-called miracle ended with its time, prophet Mohammad's miracle is left behind, since his was the gift of the Quran, which came down at a time when the Arabs used to recite their poems and have them posted on the Kaaba, his 'poem' was like no other and still to this day!

Dear Skye, I am the first to admit my lack of knowledge.
I sense that you have neither forgotten nor forgiven my ignorant questions. :-[
When I asked them they were based on my basic understanding of the Qu'ran after having read it once.

You'll forgive that I have a difficult time reconciling that with what you write, to miss a verse once or twice or thrice or four times is fine, but 20+ as well the very chapter with that title, can only equal to (not read)

I am the first to admit that I have not studied the Qu'ran in every depth and breadth. Hence my questions may seem ignorant and silly to some. :-[

I won't say in depth, I'll say not at all, see above for why!

You may or may not be able or willing to trust me when I say that I do not ask questions for the sake of being cantancerous or difficult, or to upset and hurt people.
I ask questions for one reason only, to learn!

You seem very unsatisfied with the answers given you?

We are all on a journey together, hopefully on one which will bring us closer to God, in terms of knowledge, love and understanding.
I do not claim to be perfect, but I am plodding on. :)

God's peace to you and all.

I gain nothing with your admittance or denial of the fact, I merely dislike the smoke and mirrors style to explain why you ask certain questions!

all the best

[glo]

You seem very unsatisfied with the answers given you?

Some answers seem indeed unsatisfactory, for many different reasons. Perhaps I don't feel they have answered my question, perhaps they don't make sense to me at the time, perhaps it is just not the right time to digest the answer ...

Many other answers are very satisfying and also very important to me. Each one is a small piece which helps me piece together the broader picture which is Islam.

I gain nothing with your admittance or denial of the fact, I merely dislike the smoke and mirrors style to explain why you ask certain questions!

Your distrust of me has been a constant concern to me, Skye.
Perhaps it is time for me to learn that it is indeed your problem and not mine, and that I just have to accept that this is how it is.
I wish you well.

God's peace to you and all. :)

[جوري]

Some answers seem indeed unsatisfactory, for many different reasons. Perhaps I don't feel they have answered my question, perhaps they don't make sense to me at the time, perhaps it is just not the right time to digest the answer ...

This is certainly true.. it is like sitting for a lecture on glycolysis and not knowing whether at the end you have harnessed four or two ATP's and how it actually relates to your every day life-- but it doesn't change the fact that others have understood the lecture as well the application. When such a lack of understanding happens especially with something universally taught to all, the best thing to do is spend ones personal time expending the effort, in the case of gly. maybe because it pertains to your exam, or toward your actual degree, or to every day clinical use as it comes to someone with an enzymatic deficiency or a child eating too much toothpaste or egg whites etc.. and if it doesn't bother or touch your life in any fashion you can always go for alternative medicine, sweep it under the rug or live perfectly happy and content not knowing of its existence or application all together.. I hope you can apply that analogy as well when it comes to religion, practical/spiritual and other worldly benefits!

Many other answers are very satisfying and also very important to me. Each one is a small piece which helps me piece together the broader picture which is Islam.

Good for you

Your distrust of me has been a constant concern to me, Skye.
Perhaps it is time for me to learn that it is indeed your problem and not mine, and that I just have to accept that this is how it is.
I wish you well.

God's peace to you and all. :)

You can view it whichever way pleases you..

all the best

[YusufNoor]

This was part of a comment in another thread, but I brought it here to begin this thread because it focuses for me a question I have. I think I am fairly safe in assuming that Imam was referring to the Qur'an in his statement above.

So my question is, without getting into the circular argument where the Qur'an declares itself to be true, on what basis do the Muslims on this board believe that the Qur'an and only the Qur'an truly is the miraculous word of God?

firstly, on the basis of the language of the Qur'an itself. in a world where poetry reigned and the best poems were tacked onto the Kabbah [and some say worshiped], where parents sent their children to be weaned with the Bedouin, partially for learning the "purity" of their language,the Qur'an came and blew everyone away. i don't think it can be explained to Caucasians/Westerners who only pretend to be interested in Islam. unless you actually take a look at examples of the Arabic, it will be lost to you. [there is actually music within the Qur'an, with the different Surahs having their own sounds and some with different feeling/emotions!]

IN ADDITION, we have witnesses to Revelation as well as witness to Gibreel [AS] plus Zaid ibn Thaabit is said to have witnessed him reciting Qur'an with Rasulullah[PBUH] during Rhamadhan and witness to Revelation plus many Miracles and Prophecies from the Prophet[PBUH]. the RELIGION itself is also proof.

we have the ONLY PURELY MONOTHEISTIC Religion that has it's Revelation still intact. we are the ONLY Religion the believes in La Ilaha IlAllah[No God is worthy of worship except Allah] as well as La Hawla Wa La Quwata Illa Billah [there is no Power or Strength except with Allah].

we are the only Ummah that has Surat Al Fatihah!

the Torah is not in it's original form and no contemporaneous works exist from the time of Isa ibn Marriam[PBUThem]

we have posted workshops on the Qur'an, no one listens to them. poor translations of the Qur'an are NOT the Qur'an. as a matter of fact, GOOD translations of the Qur'an are NOT the Qur'an. ONLY the ACTUAL QUR'AN is the Qur'an!

unless you are willing to investigate THE ACTUAL Qur'an, or Allah guides you, you cannot begin to the fathom the Special Qualities of the Qur'an.

but i don't think that any of our "pretend" friends here have the slightest interest in the Qur'an. they only have their own agendas, and Allahu Alum! [Allah knows Best]

:w:

[Dawud_uk]

peace glo,

i get into this discussion a lot, so let me try to break it down for you.

first of all the miracle of the Quran being unable to be reproduced is perhaps not so useful to yourself, the challenge is to produce a chapter like the Quran in its style and grammar in arabic.

now i assume you are not a fluent classical arabic speaker? if so then you'd need quite a few years to learn arabic before trying but feel free to give it a go. but you should know that for 1400 years this has been tried and never once has a native arabic speaker succeeded in this.

the christian and jewish arabic speakers tried and failed, the pagan arabs tried and failed, lately the atheist secularist arabs have tried and failed so it is quite a big challenge as the best minds from all of these groups have tried and failed to produce one chapter like the Quran, someone as small as 3 lines long in its perfect style and grammar.

a more useful challenge for you is to find a flaw of error in the Quran, as only Allah is capable of perfection, it is beyond mankind so many faiths claim to hold the word of God, but whose claim stands up to scrutiny and whose fails by being full of flaws and contradictions?

i am sure you as a christian, we as muslims both agree God doesnt lie, God doesnt make mistakes, therefore his holy book, should likewise be free of contradictions and errors.

There are other scientific miracles, but that requires perhaps another post to break it down a bit how do you get around these two problems to you as a christian wanting to follow God can read a book and not find flaws and contradictions nor have the best arab christians (or others) been able to produce just one chapter of 3 lines long like the Quran?

peace,

[Banu_Hashim]

Hi Alpha Jr

That is something I have never been able to understand.
Why would Muhammed not being able to read or write matter?
The Qu'ran was from the beginning spoken, recited ... no reading or writing involved, is there?

In a culture where oral tradition was very much the norm, and where knowledge was passed on through stories and verbal accounts, rather than books and written material, that doesn't seem such a special thing ... :?

Looking forwrd to your reply. :)

Peace

Well, the Islamic viewpoint is partly to do with the fact that Muhammad (saws*) had no formal education. And to receive such words of guidance as the Qur'an, and to achieve what he did in the span of 23 years (i.e. to consolidate the Islamic empire, to establish himself as a army general, as a teacher, as an Imam, as a leader etc. etc.) is nothing short of a miracle, and is not possible without divine help.

* saws = sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam

............= "May Allah bless him and grant him peace"

[glo]

Dawud, your post is very helpful. Thank you. :)

I am sure that not knowing Arabic at all the wonder and awe surrounding the way the Qu'ran is apparently written escapes me.
I have no concept at all of what it might mean 'not to be able to reproduce it', or how indeed that should be so difficult.
(Perhaps I should have a go myself. haha! (Joke!) :D)

So I will leave that entire argument aside until such a time when I might have a better understanding of Arabic.

As for contradictions etc and such in holy books, there are of course many other threads and posts in this section on that matter, and Christians have made their view-point clear.
Since that is not what this thread is about, can I ask you whether you whole-heartedly believe that the Qu'ran is utterly and totally without contradiction?
(I am asking because I know many, even Muslims, who would say otherwise. So I am interested in your personal opinion on this)

Peace :)

[Dawud_uk]

Dawud, your post is very helpful. Thank you. :)

I am sure that not knowing Arabic at all the wonder and awe surrounding the way the Qu'ran is apparently written escapes me.
I have no concept at all of what it might mean 'not to be able to reproduce it', or how indeed that should be so difficult.
(Perhaps I should have a go myself. haha! (Joke!) :D)

So I will leave that entire argument aside until such a time when I might have a better understanding of Arabic.

As for contradictions etc and such in holy books, there are of course many other threads and posts in this section on that matter, and Christians have made their view-point clear.
Since that is not what this thread is about, can I ask you whether you whole-heartedly believe that the Qu'ran is utterly and totally without contradiction?
(I am asking because I know many, even Muslims, who would say otherwise. So I am interested in your personal opinion on this)

Peace :)

yes, no contradictions

[doorster]

The Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) did not know how to read or write. So how do you think he would make the Quran from thin air if he doesn't know anything about reading or writing? Answer me and I will expand on my answer.

:sl:

clarification about literacy/illiteracy of Last Rasul Allah

:w:

http://www.ahewar.org/debat/show.art.asp?aid=73939 *arabic*, somewhat long but provides many good sources.

['Abd-al Latif]

Hi Alpha Jr

That is something I have never been able to understand.
Why would Muhammed not being able to read or write matter?
The Qu'ran was from the beginning spoken, recited ... no reading or writing involved, is there?

In a culture where oral tradition was very much the norm, and where knowledge was passed on through stories and verbal accounts, rather than books and written material, that doesn't seem such a special thing ... :?

Looking forwrd to your reply. :)

Peace

Hi glo

One of the many wisdoms behind Prophet Muhammed being an unlettered Prophet is proof to show that he didn't author the Qur'an and that it was a word given to him by Almighty God. This is why when angel Gabriel decended from the heavens and called out to Prophet Muhammad and said 'iqra', Prophet Muhammad understood the word iqra to mean 'read', so Prophet Muhammad replied 'I cannot read'.

The word iqra has two meanings, it means to read or to recite. And in the case of Prophet Muhammed (saws) it meant to recite. This further emphasizes the fact that Allah says:

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. [Surah An-Nisa 8:42]

Had Prophet Muhammad been a person who was able to read and write people would have been in doubt if this was really the word of god. This is also mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

Allah further says:

"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel...[Surah Al-Araf 7:157]

[doorster]

edit

[Uthman]

The only think I don't like about Islam is that there are so many proofs that it's true, I never know where to start. imsad

I used to say that it was impossible to prove that God exists, but I was ignorant. Any sincere and logical person who studies the life of Muhammad (peace be upon him) and then studies the Qur'an in depth can come to no other conclusion - it must be the word of God and Islam simply must be the truth.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Literature is subjective, what appeals to me might not appeal to someone else, however literary works are judged by audience, how much they sell, bestseller lists etc. Like wise with music albums - the popularity and success of a album is determined by how much of an audience it has. So a book or a song lasts for a while, few months or a year or two at extreme and then it drops off. People move on.

Yet, when it comes to the Qur'an, no other book is recited and memorized as constantly as the Qur'an is, by young and old alike, in all corners of the world, for a such a long period of time. And its audience is not decreasing, it is only increasing day by day. So when you're asked to bring a book like the Qur'an, you'll need to address this as well - you'll need to produce something that captivates people's hearts for as long as the Qur'an has, you'll need to bring a book that is memorized just as much as the Qur'an is by young and old alike, and you'll need to bring a book that lasts as long as the Qur'an has, and frankly, try as anyone might, it will by necessity be a failed attempt.

And people have tried, the latest one was by some people at Georgetown University, and for someone that doesn't know Arabic, it sounds like the Qur'an. But anyone with a minimal understanding of Arabic, it truly makes you laugh, and I don't say this simply because I'm a Muslim. For example, they made a Surah called, Surah Muslim and Surah Kafir, I mean, how original eh? :D It's truly entertaining.

I on purpose didn't bring up grammar and elequence of the Qur'an because it is truly a waste of time to explain to people about it on an online forum - it's the wrong medium. However, if anyone reading this thread (Glo and Grace Seeker) is interested, and I hope you are for at least the purpose of educating yourself on this topic, then you can take the time out for about an hour and forty five minutes and watch/listen to the following two videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaS5NsvZ4yM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWUy_luMq0Q

You'll at the very least get an idea of what exactly we mean when we say eloquence of the Qur'an.

[Grace Seeker]

This thread has taken off faster than I had expected. Sadly, I'm not able to respond to all of it right now, but will take some time to digest the various answers. I appreciate that there are many different reasons given and the high value that is placed on the Qur'an itself. I'm glad you all took my question seriously and gave your own personal answers, for I wasn't so much interested in the answer some scholar might give but what you who I interact with here on a regular basis might have as your own thoughts on the matter. Thanks for taking the time to share as you did. I'm sure I'll be back with you later after I have time to reflect.

[glo]

This thread has taken off faster than I had expected.

I fear that might have been my doing, Grace Seeker. :rollseyes

I agree in that I too find hearing and understanding people's own views and perceptions much more beneficial and helpful than scholarly cut-and-paste posts.

[Forced_In]

Hi,

I have heard that some technical books composed by humans are of very
high value. The reason is that whenever someone reads the book, there are
sources of inspiration for him/her. That is, no matter being novice or expert,
after reading the book again and again you learn new things. This would go
to such an extend that the book is called "a classic".

Now, what makes holy Quran stand out ? Simply it is not limited to a
particular area. It all depends on the reader, if he/she puts great care and
study Quran, it would be beneficial for him/her in any subject, and to any
depth the person can manage to go. Also it has no time, it wont become a
classic. Rather believers understanding of it would grow as the time passes
(hopefully).

As an example, one miracle of Quran is the harmony of its context letter-wise
way to meta-concepts. I would be thankful if someone posts the viable
researches on horoofe moghata'ah (separated letters) for instance.

[Uthman]

Hi glo

I agree in that I too find hearing and understanding people's own views and perceptions much more beneficial and helpful than scholarly cut-and-paste posts.

While people's own views and experiences may be more interesting to read, I believe that ultimately somebody who has spent a lot of their time studying a religion is the most qualified to answer questions about it. I think this also applies to any field, not just religion. :)

[Pygoscelis]

This was part of a comment in another thread, but I brought it here to begin this thread because it focuses for me a question I have. I think I am fairly safe in assuming that Imam was referring to the Qur'an in his statement above.

So my question is, without getting into the circular argument where the Qur'an declares itself to be true, on what basis do the Muslims on this board believe that the Qur'an and only the Qur'an truly is the miraculous word of God?

I would assume on the same basis that Christians believe the bible to be the word of God. Faith.

[glo]

Hi glo While people's own views and experiences may be more interesting to read, I believe that ultimately somebody who has spent a lot of their time studying a religion is the most qualified to answer questions about it. I think this also applies to any field, not just religion. :)

I agree to some extend.

But the reason I make the point is because my interest in people is why I am here ... in an Islamic forum full of Muslim people with their own views and thoughts.
If I just wanted the low down of Islam per se I would buy a book or find a Islamic website.
The reason why I chose to spend three years here in LI rather than doing the other, is that I prefer to converse with real people, and try to understand their thoughts and feelings.
That's what's giving me a real feel of what Islam is about. :)

Peace

[Uthman]

Hi Pygoscelis

I would assume on the same basis that Christians believe the bible to be the word of God. Faith.

That's not actually true. Islam does not expect us to follow it blindly. It gives us proof in the form of the miracle that is the Qur'an which is constantly inviting us to ponder over it's verses. One must bear in mind that Pre-Islam, the Arabs didn't have any kind of civilisation. What they did have however, was a very developed language which they took pride in. They were masters of language and poetry was their thing. Yet, along came Muhammad (peace be upon him) with the Qur'an and even the best of poets at the time were astounded by it's beauty and it's eloquence. It was and still is from out of this world - literally. Many people converted to Islam simply as a result of hearing the Qur'an - 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the famous companion is just one example.

Muhammad was never even known for being a particular special poet. His reputation was more that of an honest and trustworthy person which is why they used to call him (before his prophethood), Al-Ameen (the trustworthy).

From reading the Seerah (biography) of Prophet Muhammad, one sees many examples of his sincerity and humbleness. He was presented with many opportunities to seize power and yet he didn't and chose to continue preaching the message of Islam even if it meant that he had to suffer many hardships. This man was definitely not a liar.

Some might say that he was mistaken or that he was mentally ill - but that really doesn't stand to reason. If he was mentally ill, why was he able to function perfectly in all other aspects of his life? Also, what kind of mental illness causes one to mistakenly receive revelations teaching people to do good and avoid evil? What kind of mental illness causes one to ultimately change the world and alter the course of history? If all this was caused by a mental illness, then it's an illness I'd sure like to have!

If he wasn't lying and he wasn't mistaken - what other explanation is there?

There are many more points I would like to make but I fear that the thread will lose it's focus.

[Uthman]

Hi glo

That's what's giving me a real feel of what Islam is about. :)

I understand. :)

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


I like this; :D

One point which made me further strengthen my belief in the Qur'an was this verse;

"And the heavens* We** constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." [Quran: 51:47]

(the word vasi’ in Arabic means vast, moowsi’oon [which comes from the root word vasi’] is the word used in that verse which signifies that someone is an expander and expanding that certain thing, in the context of the verse – the heavens or space is gradually being expanded by God’s control.]

*heavens = the skies and space above us (in arabic = sama' = heavens), Even linguistically in English and many other languages.

it isn't the Paradise promised for the believers. The gardens promised to the beiievers in the next life is Jannah (which means gardens.)

**We = Royal We, it is used by kings to refer to themselves in a respectful way. Allah - the One & Only God refers to Himself in this respectful Royal 'We' too.


The Big Bang:
http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/13...ml#post1050844 (Muslims vs Atheists [our foundations in debate])

Someone over 1400 years ago would probably think the universe is static (i.e. stays in a still state), but the Qur'an proves otherwise [that its expanding], which we've just discovered in the 20th century by Edwin Hubble [who came with the Theory of the Big Bang].


That's just another sign that Islam has truth to it, and we are able to understand the universe around us using Qur'anic verses, and science - and by relating them together.

[Dawud_uk]

Hi Pygoscelis That's not actually true. Islam does not expect us to follow it blindly. It gives us proof in the form of the miracle that is the Qur'an which is constantly inviting us to ponder over it's verses. One must bear in mind that Pre-Islam, the Arabs didn't have any kind of civilisation. What they did have however, was a very developed language which they took pride in. They were masters of language and poetry was their thing. Yet, along came Muhammad (peace be upon him) with the Qur'an and even the best of poets at the time were astounded by it's beauty and it's eloquence. It was and still is from out of this world - literally. Many people converted to Islam simply as a result of hearing the Qur'an - 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the famous companion is just one example.

Muhammad was never even known for being a particular special poet. His reputation was more that of an honest and trustworthy person which is why they used to call him (before his prophethood), Al-Ameen (the trustworthy).

reminds me of this christian we have been in discussions with for a long time on the dawah stall, he comes closer to islam then talks to some christian preacher than moves further away.

then the other day a brother who doesnt normally do the stall with us was there and rather than just giving him verses in english, recited the Quran in arabic first, then translated, the christian was saying 'wow, what was that? i've never heard anything like that before'

now he is meeting me on tuesday at my local masjid and he is closer than ever to islam, and inshallah i hope he will say his shahadah soon.

[coddles76]

How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

I think for one to be convinced the Quran is from God it would have to be a revelation lacking any sort of contradiction. That would be, in my view, the most important evidence. It would then be followed by its elloquence, guidance, beauty of speech, poetry etc etc which the Quran expresses in the most beautiful of fashion.

[glo]

reminds me of this christian we have been in discussions with for a long time on the dawah stall, he comes closer to islam then talks to some christian preacher than moves further away.

then the other day a brother who doesnt normally do the stall with us was there and rather than just giving him verses in english, recited the Quran in arabic first, then translated, the christian was saying 'wow, what was that? i've never heard anything like that before'

now he is meeting me on tuesday at my local masjid and he is closer than ever to islam, and inshallah i hope he will say his shahadah soon.

As well as all the miracles attached to the content of the Qu'ran and how it was passed onto Muhammed, would you say there is also a spiritual or emotional element attached to the Qu'ran?
Something that grabs people at first hearing or reading, something outside of rational thought or logical thinking?

If so, what exactly do you think is it?

Peace

[- Qatada -]

As well as all the miracles attached to the content of the Qu'ran and how it was passed onto Muhammed, would you say there is also a spiritual or emotional element attached to the Qu'ran?
Something that grabs people at first hearing or reading, something outside of rational thought or logical thinking?

If so, what exactly do you think is it?

Peace

Alot of people when they hear the Qur'an are amazed at its beauty, and it effects them spiritually and emotionally.


Here's a really good example of that [surah yasin];

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oql3as7LJKg

[aamirsaab]

As well as all the miracles attached to the content of the Qu'ran and how it was passed onto Muhammed, would you say there is also a spiritual or emotional element attached to the Qu'ran?
Something that grabs people at first hearing or reading, something outside of rational thought or logical thinking?

If so, what exactly do you think is it?

Peace

From the convert stories I have heard, many of them said it was simply the words of the Qur'an that invoked within them the will to convert to Islam. One case in particular was Umar {ra} - a companion of the Prophet, who before converting, actually wanted to kill the Prophet but after having read some excerpts of the Quran, he wanted to convert. There have been similar cases on youtube; certain haters of islam ended up converting to it due to their persistent nature of analysing the Quranic verses.

So I think there is definitely something within the words of the Quran that creates a conviction in their hearts.

From my own personal experience, it has been a mixture of things: sometimes I read it and the sheer simplicity and clarity of the verse is enough. Then upon reflecting on those verses, the meaning is clearer (''oh, that makes sense'' sort of deal). Other times, I read it and look to the modern world and see why that ruling or verse says what it says. Application to the real world etc.

[malayloveislam]

I am actually a revert, I live surrounded by non-Muslims particularly Buddhists and Taoists so my world view is based from the people who majority surrounding me. I also had mocked my late grandfather (Allahuyarhamho) for his adherence to al-Hadiths and Sunnah of Rasulullah SAW. I had revert back to this beloved religion Islam after reading and analyzing the Holy Quran after returning back from Pilgrimage (Hajj) in Mecca. Also I had checked back everything from the root beside polishing back my Quranic Arabic knowledge. Not simply by picking things from internet like what certain people who use Orientalists way to defame others did. I believe it as guidance from Allah SWT because it is His will that guides us. I prayed Allah SWT will make me consistent with the belief and religion that I hold till the day I meet Him. I also asked forgiveness from Allah SWT for mocking my grandfather and also asking Allah SWT forgiveness for him because I can't make it at time asking his forgiveness when he passed away. May Allah SWT grant piece to my late grandfather soul, Amin!

[Follower]

We don't Forced_In but no matter the form the angel Gabriel comforted in the Holy Bible. And there was always a witness, a confirmation that the message was from GOD.

Matthew 1
20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

Mohammad and his Qurqan don't have this.

[جوري]

[Pickthal 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
[Pickthal 19:28] O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
[Pickthal 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
[Pickthal 19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
[Pickthal 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

your forefathers in their bib-and-tucker book don't have Jesus speaking at birth either..

[Follower]

Actually the Quran says cradle, a young boy. Alot of leeway there with the age. There are many very young and ver verbal children.

Jesus speaking from the cradle can be found in the Apocrphya, spurious writings, writings of questionable authenticity .

Just for you skye- hope it makes you happy!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEaCn...eature=related

[جوري]

actually no leeway considering thr townsfolk said;

'kayf no'kalimo man kan fi al'mahd sabya' ? no doubt as to his age then!
Do you speak Arabic? I thought not.. there is no leeway
Jesus and two others were the only ones who spoke as infants a miracle from Allah swt and a way for Mary to prove her innocence from their allegations immediately..

I don't see laughing louis here saying that he is He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, is there a point to the video?

and lastly nothing about your scriptures is anything to smile about, you just go out of darkness into shadow!

all the best

[malayloveislam]

Ibn Ishaq is indeed all those but not a Muslim scholar.. me being a medical doctor doesn't make me an expert on quantum physics.. but then I think such concepts are too abstract for you to grasp.. further I'll say Ibn Ishaq's works were lost as cited above, makes all the claims you allege dubious, compounded of course by your lack of proper sourcing!

You are right, Hunein Ibn Ishak is not a Muslim. He is a Nestorian Christian. Find source from Muslim if it is about Islam. Not all Middle-Easterners are Muslim.

[GreyKode]

We don't Forced_In but no matter the form the angel Gabriel comforted in the Holy Bible. And there was always a witness, a confirmation that the message was from GOD.

Matthew 1
20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

Mohammad and his Qurqan don't have this.

Have what? What in the world are you talking about?:enough!:

[malayloveislam]

Peace,

As a Muslim we believe Quran is totally the word of G-d, it is strongly not the word of prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Prophet Muhammad have no authority to change or alter any word from the scripture, he just recite it and the words were put into his mouth through recitation. There is not only one way al-Quran being revealed. Al-Quran is not revealed by being cast down as a book from the heaven.

It was recited by archangel Gabriel (pbuh) under the order of Allah SWT. Read the brief commentaries by Syeikh Mutawalli As-Syaarawi concerning how al-Quran was revealed to prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He is a Muslim scholar, not a Christian, not a Jew, and not an Orientalist. Orientalists are insincere to the knowledge, many of their reviews are bias. When I revert back, I never believe in them anymore. Their intention is not sincere because of G-d if they tried to disprove other religions. They just want to validate imperialism and dominion over other fellow human-being.

Q1. Al-Quran was revealed gradually according to certain events that happened. How are those Surahs being arranged and the Quranic verses being collected and compiled as a certain Surah like we see today? Who is the compilers? What are the factors being taken into account when the verses being compiled?

Answer:

1) Allah Messenger, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is an Ummi (illiterate). He knows not to read nor write.

And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before we this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities doubted.

(Translation of Surah Al-Ankabut verse 48, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received al-Quran through memorization and recitation. Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) was not only delivering al-Quran but also making it fastened in the heart of prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Due to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) inability to read or write, he had chose few companions to write those Quranic verses revealed. Among them are 4 prominent companions, Amir Bin Furairah, Ubai Bin Kaab al-Ansari, Muawiyah Bin ABu Sufyan, Zaid Bin Tsabit and many others. They recorded the verses in the written form over palm leaves, sanctified bones of camels, and others. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had also asked his companions to write it in front him and preventing them from writing other than what he had recited. Prophet (pbuh) said: whomever wrote other than what I had recited (Quranic verses), he must immediately erase it!

In this time, the the prophet's companions sincerely following the instructions to place the Surahs in the correct place. Every year in the holy month of Ramadhan, archangel Gabriel (pbuh) will come to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will have to tadarrus (a learning process, recitation and memorization, Muslims over the world practicing this in order to keep the purity of al-Quran) the Quranic verses again to the archangel to check the Surahs that were revealed to him before Ramadhan of that year.

After the written process of Quranic verses had finished, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will instruct the verses to be placed in his house. There are also companions who wrote down the verses for their personal reference and for prayer necessities.

The compilation of al-Quran into a mushaf (manuscript) had already happened in the governance of Abu Bakar (G-d be please with him), a companion of prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The suggestion to compile the verses into a manuscript was made by another companion who is Umar al-Khattab (G-d be please with him). The reason is because many memorizers (the bearers of al-Quran) were martyred in the Yamamah war. Abu Bakr in the beginning opposed the idea as it was never done in the prophet (pbuh) life time but eventually have to agree after he had listened to the explanation of Umar al-Khattab.

Abu Bakr had appointed Zaid Bin Tsabit (G-d be please with him) to compile the Quranic verses into a manuscript. Zaid Bin Tsabit had managed to compile them into a manuscript and it was kept by Abu Bakr. The first compilation exist until the governance of Umar al-Khattab, the second governor.

During the governance of Uthman Affan (G-d be please with him) the third governor, an event happened where Huzaifah bin al-Yaman had joined a war. Huzaifah was surprised to hear that Quran being recited differently in few places where he had passed over in Syria and in Iraq. Huzaifah then met Uthman and telling what he had experienced. Uthman thus had sent a messenger to meet Hafsah (the son of Umar al-Khattab) to take the quran manuscript (written and recorded document) during the governance of Abu Bakr. Uthman instructed Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Zubair, Said bin al-As, and Abdurrahman bin al-Harith to write few other copies of the manuscript. Those scribes had also made 4 copies of the manuscript and each of them being sent to Syria, Iraq, Egypt, and Madinah.

Truly what had been said in Surah al-Hijir verse 9

translation:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and we will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Syeikh Mutwalli as-Syaarawi said, "the Surahs in the cluster of al-Quran were revealed according to the historical events that happened. While the compilation of those Quranic verses matched into another form, which is through the appropriate methodology like the mediation of human speaking." In his second fatwa, Syeikh Mutawalli said that the arrangement of Surahs had been made according to what had been arranged in Lauh Mahfuz (Guarded Tablet).

Translated from the reference of Islamic Jurispundence, the History, Source and the Schools by Fadilah Sarnap and from the Translation of Al-Jami' al-Fatawa (Compilation of Legal Pronouncement) by Syeikh asy-Syaarawi.

http://soaljawab.wordpress.com/2007/...kat-peringkat/

[malayloveislam]

How is Gospel being revealed to the apostles in Christianity? Mind sharing? Thank you.

[malayloveislam]

This is Muslim part on how al-Quran being revealed. English websites might be written by hateful Orientalists which contradicts and not even from the correct source. Knowledge is the light enlightening darkness. Why should we be lack of integrity when talking about the history of Islam and al-Quran? Orientalists only talks briefly and then making irresponsible commentaries without proper references and sources.

The ways al-Quran being revealed to prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

As what Muslim believes and it is the fact, al-Quran is not a book being cast on our face from heaven. This is how prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a messenger of Allah and His humble slave receiving the revelation.

1. Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) installing the revelation straight into prophet Muhammad (pbuh) heart. In this case, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sees nothing. He only feels and sense that it (the Quranic verses) are already in his heart.

Translation of Surah As-Syura verse 51 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali:

It is not fitting for a man that G-d should speak to him except by revelation (only to prophets), or behind the veil*, or by sending of a messenger to reveal, with G-d's permission, what G-d wills: for He is the most High, the Most Wise.

* behind the veil: a person who listens to the words of G-d but he can't see Him like what had happened to holy prophet Moses (pbuh). G-d speaks not like human-being or any other creations, He is beyond our thinking. The verb speak is only a parable for human lowly mind according to limited human language to understand.

2. Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) taking the form of a man who recites the verses in front of prophet (pbuh) until he understand and memorizing the verses.

3. The revelation came to the prophet (pbuh) like the sound of bells. Prophet (pbuh) will fell like something heavy descended over him. Sometimes sweats appear on his eyebrows when the revelation delivered upon him even though it is in winter with extremely cold wind blows.

There is the time where the revelation being delivered to him while he is on his camel and the camel have to stop and lowered itself on the earth because it is heavy. Zaid Bin Tsabit narrated: "I'm the scribe of the revelation for the messenger of Allah (pbuh). I witnessed that when the revelation being delivered to Allah messenger (pbuh), he seems like suffering with an extremely heavy fever (shivering, when you are holding something heavy how do you look like?). His sweats drop like diamonds. When the revelation process had finished only it becomes normal and he resume like before.

4. Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) with his true form revealing himself reciting verses to prophet (pbuh).

Translation of Surah An-Najm by Abdullah Yusuf Ali verses 13 - 15:

13. For indeed he (prophet Muhammad) saw him (archangel Gabriel) at a second descent.

14. Near the Lote-tree (Sidratul-Muntaha) which no one can pass:

15. Near it is the Garden of Abode.

This is a translation from this Islamic website in Malay, sorry for inaccuracy in translation, but this one is from Ahlussunnah Wal-Jamaah Muslim (Sunni) website and the references are from Muslim scholars. Make cross check with Muslim scholars of different universities.

Source: Mufti Department of Malacca State Government, Malaysia, you may check the accuracy of translation if you understand Malay, please inform me of there is any inaccuracy, thank you.

http://www.al-azim.com/masjid/ramadh...uzul/wahyu.htm

[Grace Seeker]

I appreciate you listing all of these in one place. I guess I was operating under a false understanding that the same methodology was used continuously throughout the process of Muhammad's receiving of the Qur'an.

But some of these leave the same question with regard to the Qur'an as is frequently put to Christians regarding the inspiration of their scriptures, namely how do you know that you got it right? Let me pick just one of your means you gave and show how I might apply that question to the Qur'an:

1. Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) installing the revelation straight into prophet Muhammad (pbuh) heart. In this case, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sees nothing. He only feels and sense that it (the Quranic verses) are already in his heart.

Translation of Surah As-Syura verse 51 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali:

It is not fitting for a man that G-d should speak to him except by revelation (only to prophets), or behind the veil*, or by sending of a messenger to reveal, with G-d's permission, what G-d wills: for He is the most High, the Most Wise.

* behind the veil: a person who listens to the words of G-d but he can't see Him like what had happened to holy prophet Moses (pbuh). G-d speaks not like human-being or any other creations, He is beyond our thinking. The verb speak is only a parable for human lowly mind according to limited human language to understand.

In these instances Muhammad has some sort of sense as to what it is that God wants placed in the Book he is giving Muhammad, but it isn't really a recitation afterall. Specifically there are no words. The feeling that Muhammad has ultimately does get expressed in words, but the original form of the communication is, as you put it above, not words but feelings and sensations. And as you further go on to say, human language is limited. So, is there really any way, even in Arabic, for Muhammad to put into words all that was revealed to him? And I don't mean that next question as an attack on the Qur'an, but really the opposite: Isn't the Qur'an actually going to come up short in communicating in human language what Allah made known to Muhammad?

[malayloveislam]

But some of these leave the same question with regard to the Qur'an as is frequently put to Christians regarding the inspiration of their scriptures, namely how do you know that you got it right? Let me pick just one of your means you gave and show how I might apply that question to the Qur'an:

In these instances Muhammad has some sort of sense as to what it is that God wants placed in the Book he is giving Muhammad, but it isn't really a recitation afterall. Specifically there are no words. The feeling that Muhammad has ultimately does get expressed in words, but the original form of the communication is, as you put it above, not words but feelings and sensations. And as you further go on to say, human language is limited. So, is there really any way, even in Arabic, for Muhammad to put into words all that was revealed to him? And I don't mean that next question as an attack on the Qur'an, but really the opposite: Isn't the Qur'an actually going to come up short in communicating in human language what Allah made known to Muhammad?

Those words of G-d had been installed in his heart by archangel Gabriel (pbuh) the G-d emissary. G-d use human language to transmit the message because the message is for human-being (and genies). The messenger is a human. He is the messenger to human-being and using human language, which in this case is Arabic. Prophet Moses (pbuh) spread G-d message in Hebrew, prophet Abraham (pbuh) with Chaldean, prophet Jesus (pbuh) with Aramic. We believe the same archangel Gabriel (pbuh) conveys the revelation to prophet Abraham (pbuh) and also to prophet Jesus (pbuh). Furthermore only prophet Muhammad (pbuh) receives revelation, his companions or disciples never receives any revelation. A person who receives the revelation must be a prophet, before appointed as G-d's messenger. He must be a trustworthy (Amanah), speaking the truth never lying (Siddiq), delivering the message without alteration (Tabligh), possessing wisdom (Fathanah), check back the characteristics that must be possessed by a prophet in Islam. We believe all prophets have those 4 characteristics and they are impossible telling lies (Kizzib), hiding the message (Kitman), breaking the promises (khianah), and ignorant (jahl). Also one other characteristics which is normal for human-being (Aradhul-Basyariah), they eat, they married, they go to toilet, having children and descendants, and others.

The reason why we Muslims always emphasize that G-d acts differently from human-being is to show that He is different from Human-being and to prevent personification of G-d. It will eventually leads to idolatry because we still can't escape from imagining Him with the images that we see in the Earth. We will think that G-d has mouth like human. G-d has hands, and others. That is why we cannot imagine how He communicate even with certain prophets like prophet Moses (pbuh), He is different from any creatures, and we do not know how He acts.

Anything that exists in the Universe is His creation and new. They will eventually die. G-d will never die, He is without space, unbounded by time, He already exist since before the beginning and will continue to be in existance forever. He posses the knowledge of the past, present, and future. For more information, I suggest you to find a translation of the book written by Syeikh As-Syaarawi in English for reference, it is entitled Mu'jizatul Quran - "The Miracle of Quran". I have a copy of this book but unfortunately it is in Malay and not English. It was translated from Arabic by the Islamic Department of Malaysia.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) receives revelation through several different ways but the emissary (pbuh) conveying the message from the Guarded Tablet (Lauh Mahfuz) is Archangel Gabriel (pbuh). Those words of G-d were carved in the Guarded Tablet (Lauh Mahfuz) in the place that we can't imagine with our bounded mind. No creatures can ever approach the place, even the emissary of G-d, archangel Gabriel (pbuh) himself too can't even approach the place. The revelation is sometimes conveyed through recitation process like in Surah al-Falaq where the archangel (pbuh) asking prophet (pbuh) to recite the verses. Sometimes through the straight installment into his heart, and sometimes with the sounds of bells where the prophet (pbuh) feel "a weight" on him.

* Again we do not know how does the Guarded Tablet looks like, and we can't imagine it with our bounded mind. How the words being carved or written in the Guarded Tablet, only G-d the One who knows.

The words were brought by Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) guarded with thousand of other angels from Sidratul-Muntaha, refer to Surah al-Qadr with its interpretation. When Ramadhan every year comes, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will still have to recite everything in front of Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) in order to check whether there is any inaccuracy in the words or not. So basically, it is not only sense and feeling.

Here are some brief explanation from a Muslim. Mind sharing how Gospels were revealed to the apostles like Paul, Peter, and etc. Also if you have the accounts about the revelation being revealed to prophet Jesus (pbuh) or G-d Jesus if it is in Christians perspective? Thanks.

[malayloveislam]

I appreciate you listing all of these in one place. I guess I was operating under a false understanding that the same methodology was used continuously throughout the process of Muhammad's receiving of the Qur'an.

Thanks Grace, but that is not my own listing. I just read them and typing it again here for viewers to read :).

[Grace Seeker]

Those words of G-d had been installed in his heart by archangel Gabriel (pbuh) the G-d emissary. G-d use human language to transmit the message because the message is for human-being (and genies).

Thanks for this clarification. Based on what you had said above...

1. Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) installing the revelation straight into prophet Muhammad (pbuh) heart. In this case, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sees nothing. He only feels and sense that it (the Quranic verses) are already in his heart.

I thought you were saying that the revelation was not always in words. But I see now that you didn't mean for me to draw that inference from what you had said. So, it wasn't just a feeling or sensation that Muhammad then put into words, but actual words that were placed in Muhammad's heart. And I'm sure even that langauge is meant metaphorically, as no surgeon could have opened Muhammad up to retrieve those words.

But I now have another question based on what you wrote later:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) receives revelation through several different ways but the emissary (pbuh) conveying the message from the Guarded Tablet (Lauh Mahfuz) is Archangel Gabriel (pbuh). Those words of G-d were carved in the Guarded Tablet (Lauh Mahfuz) in the place that we can't imagine with our bounded mind. No creatures can ever approach the place, even the emissary of G-d, archangel Gabriel (pbuh) himself too can't even approach the place.

If Gabriel can't approach the place where the Guarded Tablet is kept, how does Gabriel get the message to convey it to Muhammad?

Again we do not know how does the Guarded Tablet looks like, and we can't imagine it with our bounded mind. How the words being carved or written in the Guarded Tablet, only G-d the One who knows.

But they are actual words? We may not know how they are recorded, but this statement does imply that, though they are kept in some place that we can't imagine with our bounded mind, they are actual recorded words of some type. Do you know what language they are written in?

Mind sharing how Gospels were revealed to the apostles like Paul, Peter, and etc. Also if you have the accounts about the revelation being revealed to prophet Jesus (pbuh) or G-d Jesus if it is in Christians perspective? Thanks.

This answer might vary depending on who you ask. There are some Christians who would say that every word of scripture was dictated to its human author by the Holy Spirit. And others would say that there was no revelation involved at all, that they are just human works which the church decided to accept and codify. And there are going to be many people at various places in between.

As far as the Gospels themselves go, there are exactly four which are recognized as legitimate. None of them were recorded by Paul nor Peter, but by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We don't actually know how it is that they came to write them. The method of that process, if it was ever known, has been lost to history. Luke is the only one who gives us any hint of the process by which he produced his Gospel narrative:

Luke 1
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Tradition tells us that both John and Matthew were disciples of Jesus and, therefore, would have been eyewitnesses to many (but not all) of the things which they write about. Even though it was probably the last of the Gospels to be penned to paper, I find the evidence regarding John having been a disciple of Jesus more compelling than I do for Matthew, as we have John's own disciples writing of having learned this from John himself, while the attestation for Matthew is much more removed.

But as far as the process by which we consider them to be God's word, for many that hinges on a single line from one of Paul's letters to Timothy, another Christian missionary:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The thing is that it is most likely that when Paul wrote this that he was not thinking of any of the Gospel accounts but rather of what we today call the Old Testament scriptures. However, most Christians today would hold that if it is true of the OT, that it must by extension also be true of the NT.

That argument can of course be considered a circular argument were it not for what Peter said about Paul's writings:

2 Peter 3
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Here Peter gives Paul's writings the status of scripture, so even if Paul was not referring to his own work, and I doubt that he was, Peter (and presumably the rest of the NT church) did consider them thusly.

I'm sorry, that doesn't really give you much of an answer as to how they were inspired, only why they are understood to be inspired. It is basically an article of faith that they would have been inspired by the Holy Spirit because Jesus promised us that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth:

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

[syilla]

:salamext:

for me...

It is the process of learning the quran...it never comes to end and it is sooo hard...but every qari or qariah will still try their best to perfect their recitation (no human being can create something like that)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7EDW...eature=related

[جوري]

I'll write one paragraph of a very refractory Querish who had no interest in leaving their paganist ways, even in spite of a few tribes of Christian and Jews in their midst..

with a popular fair approaching, some people from amongst qurish approached al-walid bin al-mughira, a man of some standing, he addressed them ' the time of the fair has come around again, and the representatives of the Arabs will come to you. They have heard about this fellow of yours, so agree upon one opinion without dispute so that none will give the lie to the other, they said, 'give us your opinion about him' and he replied, 'No you speak and I will listen' 'so they said, he is a kahin (clairvoyant) al-walid responded, 'By God, he isn't that for he hasn't the unintelligent murmuring and rhymed speech of the kahin. 'then he is possessed'. 'no, he is not that, we have seen possessed ones, and here there is no choking or spasmodic movement or whispering'. 'then he is a poet', 'no he is no poet, for we know poetry of all its forms and meters' 'then he is a sorcerer' 'no, we have seen sorcerers and their sorcery, and here there is no spitting and no knots'' ''then what are we to say?'' ''by God his speech is sweet, his is as a palm tree whose branches are fruitful, and everything you have said would be known as false'. ''the nearest thing to the truth, is that you are saying, he is a sahir (magician) who has brought a message by which to separate a man from his father, or from his wife, or from his family.
we find the same in the case of abu bakr who built a mosque next to his home and devotes himself to Quran and prayer. the polytheists approached Ibn Addaghinna, and asked him to prevent abu bakr from reading the QUran, because amongst other things women and children were known to eavesdrop on his recitation, and they'd naturally be very susceptible to its influence'

excerptedby me from 'The history of the QUranic text' page 51

[malayloveislam]

Thanks for this clarification. Based on what you had said above... I thought you were saying that the revelation was not always in words. But I see now that you didn't mean for me to draw that inference from what you had said. So, it wasn't just a feeling or sensation that Muhammad then put into words, but actual words that were placed in Muhammad's heart. And I'm sure even that language is meant metaphorically, as no surgeon could have opened Muhammad up to retrieve those words.

Peace Grace,

Only G-d knows how those words being installed into prophet's Muhammad (pbuh) heart. Archangel Gabriel (pbuh), the G-d's noble emissary is not in physical form when he installed the revelation (Quranic verses). Remember that angels were created from light elements by G-d. Human physical eyes can't see the process.

Yes, sometimes it is not in words but every Ramadhan holy month of every year during prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lifetime, archangel Gabriel (pbuh) will descend and checking those verses whether they were revealed with the sound of bells, installed into his heart, or recited and following recitation-memorization by heart process. The words will come out from prophet (pbuh) mouth under the supervision of the archangel (pbuh) with the permission of G-d.

We are certain that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not lying because many people had witnessed how prophet Muhammad (pbuh) behave during his lifetime. And many of his companions and disciples still alive after he passed away. Some of them becoming the governors of certain Muslim areas like Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali (G-d be please with them all). Also others who had been his scribes like Zaid Bin Thabit, Abdullah Bin Zubair, and etc. His life account too is not obscure and we know how he died. He died in the age 63 years old in the house of our mother Aisya (G-d be please with her) in front of his companions, disciples, and other Muslims. You may have to check back his life account from proper sources, not only those brief stories by Orientalists. They might left something in their historical narration.

Concerning those verses from the revelation including the verses from this Surah An-Najmu 3-4 being recited by prophet Muhammad (pbuh), again refer back to the characteristics possessed by prophets of Islam. From Adam to Muhammad (pbut).

3. Nor does he (prophet Muhammad) say (aught) (his own) Desire

4. It is no less than revelation sent down to him.

(translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, English equivalent might be inaccurate, refer back to Arabic text)

These verses using the word "he" referring to prophet Muhammad (pbuh). How can a person saying something and then referring back to himself? Unless if he follow someone speaking. Like you speak something about your friend, and you ask him to say exactly what you said. You may say something to your friend say, "you are a butcher", and your friend will repeat it again, "you are a butcher", but it is referring to himself.

But I now have another question based on what you wrote later:If Gabriel can't approach the place where the Guarded Tablet is kept, how does Gabriel get the message to convey it to Muhammad?

Only G-d knows, it is His job there, He works with His mysterious way. We do not know where is that holy place located except Him, we do not know how He convey the message to the Archangel (pbuh) and we can not speculate more than what we had heard. Everything is in the knowledge of G-d, and how He execute his acts is unknown to us, only He is the One who knows.

But they are actual words? We may not know how they are recorded, but this statement does imply that, though they are kept in some place that we can't imagine with our bounded mind, they are actual recorded words of some type. Do you know what language they are written in?

Only G-d knows what language it is. The message is transmitted by the emissary (pbuh) to the prophets (pbuh) according to the languages spoken by the prophets. When the message revealed to prophet Moses (pbuh), it is Hebrew. When the message revealed to prophet Jesus (pbuh), it is Aramaic, when it is to prophet Abraham (pbuh), it is in Chaldean. When you check back human early civilization, which area had developed in early civilization? I had checked in academic text-books that, it is in Mesopotamia. Those holy prophets are the descents of Mesopotamians (the Semites).

I might be not good in explaining, and if any brother and sister in Islam wanted to correct or adding something, feel free to do so. We learn from each other and I feel sick with Orientalists deceiving and telling our Western friends who had done nothing wrong to others false informations. As always, G-d knows everything :thumbs_up.

[malayloveislam]

This answer might vary depending on who you ask. There are some Christians who would say that every word of scripture was dictated to its human author by the Holy Spirit. And others would say that there was no revelation involved at all, that they are just human works which the church decided to accept and codify. And there are going to be many people at various places in between.

Thanks Grace. So this indicates that the apostles of god Jesus were writing the gospels from what had been dictated by the Holy Spirit. I'm still not clear what exactly is Holy Spirit to Christians? Is he an angel, a god, merely a roaming spirit or G-d himself to Christians?

We Muslims recognize Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) as the one who conveys the message of G-d to prophets (pbut). He also conveys the annunciation of the birth of prophet Jesus (pbuh) to mother Maryam (G-d be please to her). He is not G-d, but G-d's creation (humble slave) created from the light elements.

Also this indicates that there might be no revelation at all, the gospels were written by human where the Church accept and codify it as the scripture. Do you mean the gospels were copied by someone? How many copies they have before god Jesus is crucified and how different each copies are I mean in version?

Is there any evidence that god Jesus himself supervising the copying process of the gospels before he is crucified? As far as I had heard, god Jesus is a literate person. He can write and read. Why don't he write the gospel himself?

How is the gospel being revealed to god Jesus? Or he is the one who revealed the gospel to himself? Sorry, I don't really understand about how the revelation being revealed in Christianity because I don't know which one is responsible to convey the message to human. Whether it is god Jesus, or his apostles? If god Jesus is G-d, then his apostles must be prophets and G-d messengers appointed by G-d. Quite confusing for me.

As far as the Gospels themselves go, there are exactly four which are recognized as legitimate. None of them were recorded by Paul nor Peter, but by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We don't actually know how it is that they came to write them. The method of that process, if it was ever known, has been lost to history. Luke is the only one who gives us any hint of the process by which he produced his Gospel narrative:

Luke 1

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

I'm sorry for my ignorance, but who is Luke? Is he the disciple of god Jesus? Or among his 12 companions? Do you have his life account? What is the meaning of servants of the word?

If for Hadiths, we have complete accounts of the narrators and those learning about the Hadiths will have to memorize the narrators life accounts too. Those who copy it from the Hadiths narrators and compiling it into a manuscript too have their life account. Quran is the first source in Islam and the holy scripture revealed by G-d. Hadiths is the second which means the acts and sayings of prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Hadiths were divided into two, the Hadiths Nabawi, and Hadiths Sahih. Hadiths Nabawi is the interpretation of Quranic verses concerning the acts of worship, like the manner of prayer taught by archangel Gabriel (pbuh) to prophet Muhammad (pbuh). And prophet Muhammad (pbuh) showing the way to the Muslims, and his companions will narrate and recorded it down into palm leaves, papers, etc.

Tradition tells us that both John and Matthew were disciples of Jesus and, therefore, would have been eyewitnesses to many (but not all) of the things which they write about. Even though it was probably the last of the Gospels to be penned to paper, I find the evidence regarding John having been a disciple of Jesus more compelling than I do for Matthew, as we have John's own disciples writing of having learned this from John himself, while the attestation for Matthew is much more removed.

What language are they using to write the gospels? Is it Greek, Aramaic, or Latin? Are they too inspired by the Holy Spirit?

But as far as the process by which we consider them to be God's word, for many that hinges on a single line from one of Paul's letters to Timothy, another Christian missionary: The thing is that it is most likely that when Paul wrote this that he was not thinking of any of the Gospel accounts but rather of what we today call the Old Testament scriptures. However, most Christians today would hold that if it is true of the OT, that it must by extension also be true of the NT.

What are the characteristic of prophets according to Christians? Is there any other Christians witnessing their trustworthiness? Is Timothy a prophet too? Because his letters too being compiled in the bible together with the OT, and NT.

That argument can of course be considered a circular argument were it not for what Peter said about Paul's writings: Here Peter gives Paul's writings the status of scripture, so even if Paul was not referring to his own work, and I doubt that he was, Peter (and presumably the rest of the NT church) did consider them thusly:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Who is Peter? Do you have his life account? Is this revealed by god Jesus or Holy Spirit? Thanks

I'm sorry, that doesn't really give you much of an answer as to how they were inspired, only why they are understood to be inspired. It is basically an article of faith that they would have been inspired by the Holy Spirit because Jesus promised us that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth:

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

This John verse is the revelation from god Jesus or merely written by John? Why don't god Jesus write a copy for other Christians instead of asking his prophets, because he can write it himself? Who is this spirit of truth? Is he really a spirit? What is the things that he speaks and hears?

Sorry, too many questions, I'm confused and had no intention to defame others. Thanks for your patience.

[Hugo]

Hi,I have heard that some technical books composed by humans are of very high value. The reason is that whenever someone reads the book, there are sources of inspiration for him/her. That is, no matter being novice or expert, after reading the book again and again you learn new things. This would go to such an extend that the book is called "a classic".

Now, what makes holy Quran stand out ? Simply it is not limited to a particular area. It all depends on the reader, if he/she puts great care and study Quran, it would be beneficial for him/her in any subject, and to any depth the person can manage to go. Also it has no time, it wont become a classic. Rather believers understanding of it would grow as the time passes (hopefully).

As an example, one miracle of Quran is the harmony of its context letter-wise way to meta-concepts. I would be thankful if someone posts the viable researches on horoofe moghata'ah (separated letters) for instance.

An interesting observation but all books are composed by humans - how else do we get them? Huge numbers of books are not limited by time, one only has to looks the the texts by Plato which are getting on for 3,000 years old, quite definitely not limited by time and are4 grammatically perfect. Consider the play Agamemnon by Aeschylus at least 2,500 years ago and although the settings are ancient the ideas it deals with are as relevant and vibrant as they were all that time ago. Consider just one quote which brilliantly captures the idea of disappointment.

Ah, mortal affairs: in times of good fortune you may compare them to a shadow; but ill fortune, a watery sponge wipes out the picture at a stroke.

So I respectfully submit that other books, many other books have things that are worthy of study and will be beneficial and inspirational. So if the Qu'ran is special it cannot be just because it is timeless, beneficial or inspirational that alone will not, cannot prove it is from God although even then we have to accept that God exists?

[جوري]

There is indeed a difference between authorship and scribes.. scribes are asked to make written copies of the oral traditions they have come to memorize and still by thousands today.. If no copy of the Quran exists in the world today. One precisely of the original would be brought together today as was recited by the prophet himself.

One would have to expend some effort doing some historical, poetic, and Quranic reading, to understand exactly why the Quran is the only living miracle!

translated and Explained by Muhammad Asad (leopold Weiss)

APPENDIX II

AL-MUQATTA’AT

ABOUT one-quarter of the Qur'anic surahsare preceded by mysterious letter-symbols called muqatta’at("disjointed letters") or, occasionally, fawatih("openings") because they appear at the beginning of the relevant surahs. Out of the twenty-eight letters of the Arabic alphabet, exactly one-half - that is, fourteen - occur in this position, either singly or in varying combinations of two, three, four or five letters. They are always pronounced singly, by their designations and not as mere sounds - thus: alif lam mim, or ha mim, etc.

The significance of these letter-symbols has perplexed the commentators from the earliest times. There is no evidence of the Prophet's having ever referred to them in any of his recorded utterances, nor of any of his Companions having ever asked him for an explanation. None the less, it is established beyond any possibility of doubt that all the Companions - obviously following the example of the Prophet - regarded the muqatta’atas integral parts of the surahsto which they are prefixed, and used to recite them accordingly: a fact which disposes effectively of the suggestion advanced by some Western orientalists that these letters may be no more than the initials of the scribes who wrote down the individual revelations at the Prophet's dictation, or of the Companions who recorded them at the time of the final codification of the Qur'an during the reign of the first three Caliphs.

Some of the Companions as well as some of their immediate successors and later Qur'an-commentators were convinced that these letters are abbreviations of certain words or even phrases relating to God and His attributes, and tried to "reconstruct" them with much ingenuity: but since the possible combinations are practically unlimited, all such interpretations are highly arbitrary and, therefore, devoid of any real usefulness. Others have tried to link the muqatta’ at to the numerological values of the letters of the Arabic alphabet, and have "derived" by this means all manner of esoteric indications and prophecies.

Yet another, perhaps more plausible interpretation, based on two sets of facts, has been advanced by some of the most outstanding Islamic scholars throughout the centuries: Firstly, all words of the Arabic language, without any exception, are composed of either one letter or a combination of two, three, four or five letters, and never more than five: and, as already mentioned, these are the forms in which the muqatta’atappear.
Secondly, all surahsprefixed by these letter-symbols open, directly or obliquely, with a reference to revelation, either in its generic sense or its specific manifestation, the Qur'an. At first glance it might appear that three surahs(29, 30 and 68) are exceptions to this rule; but this assumption is misleading. In the opening verse of surah29 (Al-Ankabat), a reference to revelation is obviously implied in the saying, "We have attained to faith" (amanna), i.e., in God and His messages. In surah30 (Ar-Rum), divine revelation is unmistakably stressed in the prediction of Byzantine victory in verses 2-4. In verse l of surah68 (Al-Qalam) the phenomenon of revelation is clearly referred to in the evocative mention of "the pen" (see note 2 on the first verse of that surah). Thus, there are no "exceptions" in the surahsprefixed by one or more of the muqatta’at: each of them opens with a reference to divine revelation.

This, taken together with the fact that the muqatta’atmirror, as it were, all word-forms of the Arabic language, has led scholars and thinkers like Al-Mubarrad, Ibn Hazm, Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi, Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Kathir - to mention only a few of them - to the conclusion that the muqatta’atare meant to illustrate the inimitable, wondrous nature of Qur'anic revelation, which, though originating in a realm beyond the reach of human perception (al-ghayb), can be and is conveyed to man by means of the very sounds (represented by letters) of ordinary human speech.

However, even this very attractive interpretation is not entirely satisfactory inasmuch as there are many surahswhich open with an explicit reference to divine revelation and are nevertheless not preceded by any letter-symbol. Secondly – and this is the most weighty objection – the above explanation too is based on no more than conjecture: andso, in the last resort, we must content ourselves with the finding that a solution of this problem still remains beyond our grasp. This was apparently the view of the four Right-Guided Caliphs summarized in these words of Abu Bakr: "In every divine writ (kitab) there is [an element of] mystery – and the mystery of the Qur'an is [indicated] in the openings of [some of] the surahs."

http://geocities.com/masad02/appendix2

[AntiKarateKid]

I'll repeat myself because it seems people like to dance around this point.

There are many non-muslim Arab speakers and scholars.

Make a surah that matches the Quran's eloquence and brilliance and we'll call Islam quits.

Thats it. Surely you can match an illiterate 6th century arab from one of the most backward places on the planet at the time?

He's got what... his turbin? You got your harvard graduates and great intellectuals.

[جوري]

an interesting thing about human composed books and their folly..Was Jesus Gay? or did he commit adultery thrice? What language did he speak? Did he even exist?

Speaking of Jesus at the modern Churchman's conference at Oxford, 1967, Canon Hugh Montefiore, Vicar of Great St. Mary, Cambridge stated:

Women were his friends, but it is men he is said to have loved. The striking fact that he remained unmarried, and men who did not marry usually had one of three reasons.
They couldn't afford it; there were no girls, or they were homosexual in nature, The times July 28, 1967.

Martin Luther, negates the image of a sinless Jesus. This is so found in Luther's Table-Talk, whose authenticity has never been challenged even through the coarser passages are cause for embarrassment, Arnold Lunn Writes:
Weimer quoted a passage from table Talk in which Luther states that Christ committed adultery three times, first with the woman at the well, secondly with MAry Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery, ''whom he left off so lightly. Thus even Christ who was so holy has to commit adultery before he died''
Arnol Lunn, The Revolt against Reason 1950, p233

what is Jesus' mother tongue.. I am curious about his most fundamental attributes?
is a full list of saying known to his followers?
have scholars agreed on what tongue those sayings have been uttered in?

Among the guesswork of early scholars in this regard, we have: a Galilean dialect of Chaldaic (J.J.Scaliger); Syriac (claude Saumaise); the dialect of Onkelos and Johnathan (Brian Walton); Greek (vossius); Hebrew (Delitzsch and Resch); Aramiac (Meyer), and even Latin. (Inchofer, for ''the Lord Cannot have used any other language upon earth, since this is the language of the saints in heaven'')
Schweitzer, PP 271, 275

Question is, why do Christians preoccupy themselves with the inimitable Quran, when the very fulcrum of their religion is a hilarious mess?

[جوري]

Do Jesus disciples understand the teaching of Jesus?

Matthew 26 (New International Version)


Matthew 26

The Plot Against Jesus

1When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2"As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified." 3Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. 5"But not during the Feast," they said, "or there may be a riot among the people."
Jesus Anointed at Bethany

6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."
10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."
Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus

14Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. 16From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over. The Lord's Supper

17On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" 18He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.' " 19So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.
20When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."
22They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?"
23Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
25Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"
Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."[a]
26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."
30When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial

31Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:
" 'I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'[c] 32But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee." 33Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will."
34"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."
35But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.
Gethsemane

36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." 39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"
Jesus Arrested

47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." 49Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. 50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[d]
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.
Before the Sanhedrin

57Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas, the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. 58But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome. 59The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 60But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.
Finally two came forward 61and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.' "
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[e] the Son of God."
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.
67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"
Peter Disowns Jesus

69Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said. 70But he denied it before them all. "I don't know what you're talking about," he said.
71Then he went out to the gateway, where another girl saw him and said to the people there, "This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth."
72He denied it again, with an oath: "I don't know the man!"
73After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, "Surely you are one of them, for your accent gives you away."
74Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!"
Immediately a rooster crowed. 75Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.

two pts as per Dr. Al-Azami
1- the twelve disciples did receive special teaching and training as Jesus was probably preparing leaders to carry on in his stead. In Mark however the 12 hardly understand anything that they are taught- B.M. Metzeger and M.D. Coogan (ed.) the Oxford companion to the bible. univ press. 1993 p 783
2- the picture painted by the four gospels of Jesus' disciples shows several instances of cowardice and ill fortitude casting doubt on how they, his followers, modeled their lives on his.
that is if we take them to be an honest depiction of his life

[جوري]

Can the bible withstand the test of time?

Do Jesus disciples understand the teaching of Jesus?

Matthew 26 (New International Version)


Matthew 26

The Plot Against Jesus

1When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2"As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified." 3Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. 5"But not during the Feast," they said, "or there may be a riot among the people."
Jesus Anointed at Bethany

6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."
10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."
Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus

14Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. 16From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over. The Lord's Supper

17On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" 18He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.' " 19So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.
20When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."
22They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?"
23Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
25Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"
Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."[a]
26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."
30When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial

31Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:
" 'I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'[c] 32But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee." 33Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will."
34"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."
35But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.
Gethsemane

36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." 39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"
Jesus Arrested

47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." 49Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. 50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[d]
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.
Before the Sanhedrin

57Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas, the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. 58But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome. 59The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 60But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.
Finally two came forward 61and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.' "
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[e] the Son of God."
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.
67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"
Peter Disowns Jesus

69Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said. 70But he denied it before them all. "I don't know what you're talking about," he said.
71Then he went out to the gateway, where another girl saw him and said to the people there, "This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth."
72He denied it again, with an oath: "I don't know the man!"
73After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, "Surely you are one of them, for your accent gives you away."
74Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!"
Immediately a rooster crowed. 75Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.

two pts as per Dr. Al-Azami
1- the twelve disciples did receive special teaching and training as Jesus was probably preparing leaders to carry on in his stead. In Mark however the 12 hardly understand anything that they are taught- B.M. Metzeger and M.D. Coogan (ed.) the Oxford companion to the bible. univ press. 1993 p 783
2- the picture painted by the four gospels of Jesus' disciples shows several instances of cowardice and ill fortitude casting doubt on how they, his followers, modeled their lives on his.
that is if we take them to be an honest depiction of his life

an interesting thing about human composed books and their folly..Was Jesus Gay? or did he commit adultery thrice? What language did he speak? Did he even exist?

Speaking of Jesus at the modern Churchman's conference at Oxford, 1967, Canon Hugh Montefiore, Vicar of Great St. Mary, Cambridge stated:

Women were his friends, but it is men he is said to have loved. The striking fact that he remained unmarried, and men who did not marry usually had one of three reasons.
They couldn't afford it; there were no girls, or they were homosexual in nature, The times July 28, 1967.

Martin Luther, negates the image of a sinless Jesus. This is so found in Luther's Table-Talk, whose authenticity has never been challenged even through the coarser passages are cause for embarrassment, Arnold Lunn Writes:
Weimer quoted a passage from table Talk in which Luther states that Christ committed adultery three times, first with the woman at the well, secondly with MAry Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery, ''whom he left off so lightly. Thus even Christ who was so holy has to commit adultery before he died''
Arnol Lunn, The Revolt against Reason 1950, p233

what is Jesus' mother tongue.. I am curious about his most fundamental attributes?
is a full list of saying known to his followers?
have scholars agreed on what tongue those sayings have been uttered in?

Among the guesswork of early scholars in this regard, we have: a Galilean dialect of Chaldaic (J.J.Scaliger); Syriac (claude Saumaise); the dialect of Onkelos and Johnathan (Brian Walton); Greek (vossius); Hebrew (Delitzsch and Resch); Aramiac (Meyer), and even Latin. (Inchofer, for ''the Lord Cannot have used any other language upon earth, since this is the language of the saints in heaven'')
Schweitzer, PP 271, 275

Question is, why do Christians preoccupy themselves with the inimitable Quran, when their 'Bibles' are a fine mess?

[malayloveislam]

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

This sounds like a prophecy. So, John had prophesied someone who will yet to come in the future (when he writes this gospel)? Spirit could not only be angels, genies, but also human, because human-being has soul, breath, spirit, that makes them alive.

[doorster]

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...henticity.html

[Hugo]

Question is, why do Christians preoccupy themselves with the inimitable Quran, when the very fulcrum of their religion is a hilarious mess?

If the Qu'ran is inimitable why is it that it copies from what you regard as a 'hilarious mess'?

[Hugo]

I'll repeat myself because it seems people like to dance around this point. There are many non-muslim Arab speakers and scholars. Make a surah that matches the Quran's eloquence and brilliance and we'll call Islam quits. Thats it. Surely you can match an illiterate 6th century arab from one of the most backward places on the planet at the time?

He's got what... his turbin? You got your harvard graduates and great intellectuals.

I respectfully point out to you are bordering on blasphemy here, surely you know that your own dogma states that the Qu'ran is God speaking not Mohammed as you infer here. So whether Mohammed was illiterate or not is irrelevant if one accepts the Qu'ran as a revelation.

You offer the same challenge stated in the Qu'ran so let us accept it. A whole chapter is perhaps is too large a chunk to deal with in a discussion board so maybe we can use a smaller section such a a verse or a few verses? But to begin with may I offer the following and as you to match it:

Psalm 23 (New International Version). A psalm of David.

1. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters,
3. he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
5. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
6. Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

Although a challenge was proffered here it seem best to me that we share wonderful passages and learn from them for although this is a passage from the Bible I cannot see that a Muslim would find it in anyway against Islam.

[Hugo]

There is indeed a difference between authorship and scribes.. scribes are asked to make written copies of the oral traditions they have come to memorize and still by thousands today.. If no copy of the Quran exists in the world today. One precisely of the original would be brought together today as was recited by the prophet himself.

One would have to expend some effort doing some historical, poetic, and Quranic reading, to understand exactly why the Quran is the only living miracle!

This is an interesting idea that one can have via I assume recitations passed down through 1400 years without a single error. Can you offer any proof that the Qu'ran you have in your mind and hands is a faultless copy of the original revelation?

[doorster]

This is an interesting idea that one can have via I assume recitations passed down through 1400 years without a single error. Can you offer any proof that the Qu'ran you have in your mind and hands is a faultless copy of the original revelation?

Now, I am ready to join in the fray (of my own free choosing)

bring me 5 Bible scholars
I bring 5 Quran scholars

we ask them, in turn, to recite/dictate their scripture, word for word, including every dot and comma, to gathered scribes/shorthand typists/ or voice recognition software.

and see who manages to be precise in every respect.

that is one of the miracle of our Quran i.e if one believes in it and recites it a few times it stays there in ones mind like a Photocopy!

[GreyKode]

If the Qu'ran is inimitable why is it that it copies from what you regard as a 'hilarious mess'?

Why don't you be more scholarly in your approach and show us how the Qur'an copies from anything.
And if you are sincere pick the Qur'an that you have in your book collection and show us some verses.

[Grace Seeker]

Sorry, too many questions, I'm confused and had no intention to defame others. Thanks for your patience.

I know you have no intention to defame others. But you are right it is too many questions, at least for this thread which I thought was supposed to be about the Qur'an and we keep getting over into questions about the Bible. If you don't mind (we'll probably even if you do), I'm travelling right now and don't have much time to answer, so I'm going to wait till Monday and then try to remember to answer these questions in the "Ask Christians Questions About Christianity" thread that Woodrow started a couple of years ago.

[Grace Seeker]

Can the bible withstand the test of time?

Do Jesus disciples understand the teaching of Jesus?


Question is, why do Christians preoccupy themselves with the inimitable Quran, when their 'Bibles' are a fine mess?

I suggest that one could just change a few words in the following post and have an appropriate response to the above questions.

I honestly don't know what they you have to gain from this save for embarrassing themselves yourself and repeatedly ..

aside from obvious erroneous beliefs, is that they you show don't know the first thing about Islam Christianity .. browse a verse or two and then come attributing to it the meaning of their your own choosing and expect the rest of us to jump on the same bandwagon..


the hilarity

[Hugo]

Why don't you be more scholarly in your approach and show us how the Qur'an copies from anything.
And if you are sincere pick the Qur'an that you have in your book collection and show us some verses.

May I point you to the N.J. Dawood revised translation from Penguin ISBN 0-14-044558-7. Please look through Joseph 12:1 to 111 which clearly looks like it has been copied from the Joseph story found in Genesis 36 onwards for a few chapters. I might also refer you to Qu'ran 12:111 which says:

"This is no invented tale, but a confirmation of previous scriptures..."

[جوري]

If the Qu'ran is inimitable why is it that it copies from what you regard as a 'hilarious mess'?

show me one passage from the Quran that reads like your mess of a bible (you are on).. and yes I can prove that the Quran is the exact original copy.. you'll have a detailed answer a little later.. it will be time consuming to go through each one of the prophet's scribes, the original copy of Hafsah, his widow, the two witnesses of each passage recorded and its dissemination. But it will be worth it to make a public example of the occasional ignoramuses we get around here!

all the best

[doorster]

he seems not to read or reply to posts just hops around like a naughty troll all over the place

[جوري]

he seems not to read or reply to posts just hops around like a naughty troll all over the place

a troll he is.. and the saddest part is every few weeks we get another one, dispensing with the same crap and fancying himself 'read'!
:w:

[جوري]

I suggest that one could just change a few words in the following post and have an appropriate response to the above questions.

I have no time to descend into cute word play with you Gene.
If you can't answer appropriately to defend passages from your own bible then why bother at all?

all the best

[GreyKode]

May I point you to the N.J. Dawood revised translation from Penguin ISBN 0-14-044558-7. Please look through Joseph 12:1 to 111 which is clearly a copied from the Joseph story found in Genesis 36 onwards for a few chapters. I might also refer you to Qu'ran 12:111 which says:

"This is no invented tale, but a confirmation of previous scriptures..."

The Qur'an refers to the ruler of egypt as "Aziz misr" while the bible calls him a pharoah.
And there are lots of details revealed in the Qur'an than in the bible. All the conversations between joseph(pbuh) and his brothers, and his father etc.

[memories]

I suggest that one could just change a few words in the following post and have an appropriate response to the above questions.

Amen to this! During my brief stay on these forums I noticed that the most intolerant,arrogant and sharp responses, often punctured with personal attacks come from this gossamer person.

[glo]

Hi Skye

I think the point Grace Seeker is making is that what Muslims say and think about Christianity may not be dissimilar to what Christians say and think about Islam, and vice versa.
If we learn to understand that and see things from the perspective of the other party, then perhaps we can learn to communicate better ...

Salaam :)

[جوري]

Indeed, you are free to think as you may, however-- there can NOT be two rights in this situation!

nonetheless, Grace didn't defend the actions of Peter, rather went off on a tirade of the same himself.. one wonders why Christians busy themselves with an alleged taste of the same rather than actually defend their faulty beliefs?

Two wrongs don't make a right, what say you?

[Muezzin]

What was this thread about again?

[Hugo]

show me one passage from the Quran that reads like your mess of a bible (you are on).. and yes I can prove that the Quran is the exact original copy.. you'll have a detailed answer a little later.. it will be time consuming to go through each one of the prophet's scribes, the original copy of Hafsah, his widow, the two witnesses of each passage recorded and its dissemination. But it will be worth it to make a public example of the occasional ignoramuses we get around here!

all the best

Lovely, lovely, I look forward to seeing it and I hope its a short answer suitable in posts - perhaps you could offer one proof at a time so we can examine it. My understand here is that we are not talking about content just about transmission?

I also need to know what you understand by the concept of 'proof'. Are you speaking in a scientific sense such as we might use when talking about Gravity or Ohms law or in a looser sense meaning the evidence convinces you or is convincing?

[Hugo]

The Qur'an refers to the ruler of egypt as "Aziz misr" while the bible calls him a pharoah. And there are lots of details revealed in the Qur'an than in the bible. All the conversations between joseph(pbuh) and his brothers, and his father etc.

You are quite correct but it is usual to say that the early copy is the more correct, authentic - that is undisputed. The issue then is why do the Qu'ranic details differ from those found in the Bible?

[جوري]

Lovely, lovely, I look forward to seeing it and I hope its a short answer suitable in posts - perhaps you could offer one proof at a time so we can examine it. My understand here is that we are not talking about content just about transmission?

Are you unable to comprehend large pieces at a time?

I also need to know what you understand by the concept of 'proof'. Are you speaking in a scientific sense such as we might use when talking about Gravity or Ohms law or in a looser sense meaning the evidence convinces you or is convincing?

The formula for preservation isn't a mathematical one, it is the recorded consensus based on a chain of Isnad and accepted by respectable historians!
In science you can't apply 'scientific sense' to everything in science itself.
There is no for instance headache-o-meter, that can be applied to assess whether what one is having is a grade 5/10 or a 10/10 ..
There are however rigorous criteria to be met, and such indeed is the case with the Quran..

By the way I am still waiting for you to prove that the Quran copied from the bible!

all the best

[جوري]

You are quite correct but it is usual to say that the early copy is the more correct, authentic - that is undisputed. The issue then is why do the Qu'ranic details differ from those found in the Bible?

perhaps the simple answer that alludes you, is that it DOESN'T copy from your bible.. else produce for me the translator that gave Muhammad (P) the bible in its poetic form..

really want to see this in your bible

Media Tags are no longer supported

[Hugo]

Are you unable to comprehend large pieces at a time?

Hugo - no you miss the point, if you present a 5,000 word post it bring discussion to a stop that is why I suggest we do it a discussion board bites

The formula for preservation isn't a mathematical one, it is the recorded consensus based on a chain of Isnad and accepted by respectable historians!
In science you can't apply 'scientific sense' to everything in science itself.
There is no for instance headache-o-meter, that can be applied to assess whether what one is having is a grade 5/10 or a 10/10 .. There are however rigorous criteria to be met, and such indeed is the case with the Quran..

Hugo - fine but my point was if it was a scientific proof I would have to accept it, believe in it if you like. That is why we need to be clear as to terms.

By the way I am still waiting for you to prove that the Quran copied from the bible!

all the best

I have already proved (in the same sense that we agree on) it in my earlier post about Joseph. There exits a copy, the earliest known copy of the Joseph story and it is found in manuscripts pre-dating the Qu'ran by many 100s of years.

[جوري]

Hugo - no you miss the point, if you present a 5,000 word post it bring discussion to a stop that is why I suggest we do it a discussion board bites

It brings it to a stop simply because you are unable to argue against what is written and referenced, and no other reason!

The formula for preservation isn't a mathematical one, it is the recorded consensus based on a chain of Isnad and accepted by respectable historians!
In science you can't apply 'scientific sense' to everything in science itself.
There is no for instance headache-o-meter, that can be applied to assess whether what one is having is a grade 5/10 or a 10/10 .. There are however rigorous criteria to be met, and such indeed is the case with the Quran..

Hugo - fine but my point was if it was a scientific proof I would have to accept it, believe in it if you like. That is why we need to be clear as to terms.

scientific approach relates to the practice of science! do you understand that? further, if you want to propose a mathematical formula to prove textual evidence, then nothing would give me a greater pleasure than to hear it and apply it to both texts in comparison side by side! Go ahead take the lead by all means!

By the way I am still waiting for you to prove that the Quran copied from the bible!

all the best

I have already proved (in the same sense that we agree on) it in my earlier post about Joseph. There exits a copy, the earliest known copy of the Joseph story and it is found in manuscripts pre-dating the Qu'ran by many 100s of years.

That doesn't answer the my query about how the Quran copies from the bible to give up one large poem. Further, you have proved nothing. You don't have two copies of the bible that are the same let alone shared by your many sects. Though 90% of Muslims are sunnis, the ten percent who are shiites still use the exact same Quran.. can you honestly say that is the same for your bibles?
On January 26Th 1997, The sunday times published the results of a survey by its correspondents Rajeev Syal and Cherry Norton regarding the 10 commandments. A random poll of 200 members of the ANGELICAN clergy revealed that two-thirds of Britain's vicars could not recall the ten commandments. Your basic code or morality is about ten lines, and these no lay christians couldn't recall them, and you wish to compare this with hundreds of thousands of Muslim Hafith.. this is what you wish to compare.
You are not even in the same league to make this an object of comparison!

all the best

[doorster]

Now, I am ready to join in the fray (of my own free choosing)

bring me 5 Bible scholars
I bring 5 Quran scholars

we ask them, in turn, to recite/dictate their scripture, word for word, including every dot and comma, to gathered scribes/shorthand typists/ or voice recognition software.

and see who manages to be precise in every respect.

that is one of the miracle of our Quran i.e if one believes in it and recites it a few times it stays there in ones mind like a Photocopy!

since this has been ignored by the troll population, and thread has been merged with another confusing mess and someone on staff anonymously tampered with one of my posts , I am out, happy evangelising y'all

[Woodrow]

I merged the two similar threads. It seems most of the applies apply to both.

[جوري]

in a step wise process so that it is easily digestible for the lazy:

The Qur'an was well documented and committed to memory during the time of revelation. When it was revealed prophet Muhammad (pbuh) memorized it and commanded the scribes of revelation to record it and they did. He also used to command his companions to commit it to memory. The Qur'an was, at intervals, revealed by Allah to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) through the angel Gabriel, who used to revise the Qur'an with prophet Muhammad once a year but the year the prophet died, the revision was only made twice. When any part of the Qur'an was revealed, the prophet would tell the scribes where to place it. In other words, it was also revealed to prophet Muhammad how to arrange the verses and how to arrange the Surahs (chapters), and then he conveyed this to the scribes.

and example of the above of course is the last verse revealed was to be placed in suret al-baqara..

that is actually another one of the miracles of the inimitable Quran, if the suras and verses were placed as they were revealed, the Quran would actually make no sense, given that some verses were revealed 22 yrs apart, and yet follow in rhythm, context, ryhme, meaning etc

the prophet neither had a computer, nor files to archive this.. in fact much of the Quran was written on the bones of animals (the scapula) for being large and able to hold alot of writing.

the entire of the Quran was written during the time of the prophet, evidenced by Zaid Ibn Thabit' statement:

'' the prophet was taken [from this life] whilst the Quran hadn't been gathered into a book''


note the useage of the word 'gathered' not 'written' exceprted from Ibn Hajar, Fatul Bari, ix 12, also see Bukhari hadith no. 4984


Abu Baker was the first Muslim Caliph. A Caliph was a Muslim ruler. After the demise of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) he was nominated to be the leader of Muslims. During his reign, Islam was targeted and many hufaz (people knowing the Qur’an by heart) were martyred. In Muslim history, it is narrated that over seventy hufaz were martyred in one event called the ‘Ahlulyamamah’.



Omar Ibn Al-Khattab went to the Muslim Caliph, Abu Bakr, and expressed his concerns about the preservation of the Qur’an to him. He suggested that the Qur’anic records would be collected in one place. So Abu Bakr commissioned a group of the prophet’s companions headed by Zaib Ibn Thabit, a companion of prophet Muhammad and one of the scribes of the Quran, to collect the Quranic records. These records were then kept with Abu Bakr and after his death Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second Muslim Caliph, preserved them and they were kept afterwards with Hafsa, the prophet’s wife.


During the era of the second and third Muslim Caliphs, Islam had expanded and many people from different countries embraced Islam. Some of the new Muslims were non-Arabs and it was not easy for them to read the Qur’an because it was in Arabic. But the Qur’an is one of the main sources of Islam. There was no other alternative but to learn the Qur’an, so Muslim Caliphs sent the prophet’s companions to teach them the Qur’an. But this did not solve the problem. People read the Qur’an in various ways but the proper intonation is very important. When Othman, the third Muslim Caliph, heard about this, he called for a meeting. The companions of prophet Muhammad assembled and discussed the issue. They reached a consensus and agreed to make copies of the Qur’anic records collected by Zaid Ibn Thabit in the reign of the first Muslim Caliph, Abu Bakr and send them all over the Muslim countries.


How did Othman do this?
He nominated four of the prophet’s companions who were hufaz to do this job.

1 Zaid Ibn Thabit: He was from Medina and he was the one that Abu Bakr, the first Muslim caliph, nominated to collect the Qur'an. He is one of the scribes of the Qur'an. He died in 45 Hj.
2 Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair died in 73 Hj.
3 Sa’id Ibn AL-Aas died in 58 Hj.
4 Abdulrahman Ibn Al-Harith died in 43 Hj.
In fulfilling this job they used a very accurate method based on the Qur’anic Records, collected during the era of the first Muslim Caliph, Abu Bakr as the main source.
This was done under the supervision of Othman Ibn Affan, the third Muslim Caliph and the most eminent figures of the companions of prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Many copies were made and sent to different Muslim places. Not only this, but with every copy one of the companions of the prophet was sent to teach people the correct recitation of the Glorious Qur’an.


pages 64 and 65 from a history of Quranic text goes into the educational acitivites of the hufath and who they are, so we can trace everything back to the time of the prophet himself.. let's of course compare that to the bible whose message and authorship remain unknown to modern day I call attention of course to early christianity to that of the Nicene counsel (the Lucian viz Arius and Athanasius views-- and of course the none- record of known scribes that one can scribe to Jesus having said!

that is in the most simplified fashion for those who prefer the reductionist approach!

all the best

[malayloveislam]

The Qur'an refers to the ruler of egypt as "Aziz misr" while the bible calls him a pharoah.
And there are lots of details revealed in the Qur'an than in the bible. All the conversations between joseph(pbuh) and his brothers, and his father etc.

Peace everyone,

Aziz Misr is a Hyksos. Hyksos are Bedouine Arabs who wandered in the desert before establishing a Kingdom in Egypt. Pharaohs are Egyptian (Coptic). During our father, prophet Abraham (pbuh) and our mother, Sarah (may G-d please with her) entering Egypt, they too had encountered the Hyksos. The King who had fallen in love with mother Sarah is not called as Pharaoh, but al-Malik, it is Arabic, not Coptic.

Aziz means the honorable, while al-Malik means the possessor of a kingdom, property, etc or simply a king. What is it called in the Bible "translations?" And what is it called in the original manuscript when referring the Hyksos kings?

[malayloveislam]

We need original copy of manuscript in the source language to check the validity of the revelation, not the translations (English, Spanish, etc).

Quran had been copied over and over since the prophet (pbuh) time after prophet (pbuh) recites the verses to the revelation scribes, and it is still in Arabic particularly with Quraisy dialect spoken by the prophet (pbuh) and his companions. There are several copies of Quran during the time of early Caliphates. We have complete historical accounts about those copies in Muslim areas, the scribes and etc like what had been stated by sister Gossamer.

Where is the copy of original Bible? If there are gospels in Greek or Aramaic, where are they? People can make researches again on how Christians' god Jesus speak if there are original manuscripts. What had happened to the Torah in history after Babylon had seized the Jews and attacked their kingdom? How many people memorized Torah when the Torah copies and manuscripts were burned? Who are the people that memorized the Torah before the copies were burned? If there happened that the people who memorize Torah exist, how many parts of Torah that they memorized? and we can expand these questions to other more questions. The reason why I ask about these is because the Torah was included in OT of Bible part, together with Gospels and Epistles of Christians' prophets in the part of NT and now we can find them in various languages regarded as the original text itself. Compared to Muslims, we do not recognize Quran in other languages except the one in Arabic with Quraisy dialect, even until today the copies of Quran manuscripts in original Arabic (language) distributed must undergo several inspection processes.

I would rather ask questions than stating because people will not read them all. Plus, it will stimulate everyone to find answers and think. Thanks.

[malayloveislam]

I think this thread name should be re-named to "Can Quran and the Bible "translations" stand the test?" to be fair and square. Can a translation beat the original manuscript (texts) in the term of originality?

I belief that some Christians in this thread have good heart and intention beside sharing the knowledge about their beliefs, which is good in bridging understanding between Eastern and Western civilizations. But some seems like the Orientalists (George Sale, and others). We Muslims had provided the stories on the compilation of Quranic verses from the beginning from our own scholars who had get the sources from the early disciples of our prophet (pbuh). I believe respective Christian friends should do the same. When you ask Muslims about the history of al-Quran, you will get the same answers. Try asking everyone here. What will be their answers? This also related to our basic Creed which is the Oneness of G-d. G-d and creatures are different entities. We are not confuse about our scripture revelation. Thanks

[malayloveislam]

Also Westerner friends should also notice about the demography, geography, and the early history of Arab speaking lands, not merely depending on Orientalists works. There are many books can be read whether from Arabic speaking Muslim scholars or from Arabic speaking Christian scholars like Philip K. Hitti. Islam is the religion of read, think, and with guidelines. We follow the scholarly guidelines, think ourselves with the guide from our creed of G-d Oneness, making researches, and we do not have Mosque fathers (like Church fathers,is there any Mosque fathers exist in Islam??) to bend our way of thinking according to theirs'. We have the guide from Quran surahs' about G-d Oneness (pure monotheism) in Surah al-Ikhlas (the sincerity), it is just a simple Surah yet in a very short canto easily memorized even by a non-Arabic speaker like myself. This surah is among the first chapters of Quran opening, we use to recite this in prayers along with obligatory al-Fatiha (Opening) surah. Every Muslim can be a scholar himself and have the rights to deal with the scripture once they find the way and teachers to assist them acquire knowledge.

[Grace Seeker]

I merged the two similar threads. It seems most of the applies apply to both.

Oh, why Woodrow? I started the other one specifically because I thought this one was ranging all over the place and couldn't keep its focus. I wasn't interested in putting the Qur'an to any sort of test, I just wanted to know how it was that those here who accept that the Qur'an was from God came to "know" that it was?

A question like, "Can the Qur'an stand the test?" invites people to challenge that assumption, and then we go down all sorts of rabbit trails as comparisons are made between Islamic, Christian, and/or other religious texts. And the reality is that what I see in this thread is so little understanding of other people's religious systems that those questions usually make about as much sense as "Why is the moon made out of swiss cheese instead of gorganzola?". In other words, people ask questions in which the premises on which their question is based aren't even true, and then think they have "proved" something if the other person either can't or elects not to answer it. So, I'm hardly interested in this sort of discussion except to say that the moon isn't made out of cheese at all.

Plus you've seen how so much of this thread isn't related to the Qur'an at all, but is filled with question about the development of the Bible, theories of Biblical inspiration, interpretations of Biblie passages. None of it relevant to the title of either of the merged threads, but still heavily discussed hear.

Can you seperate the two threads back out? Or can I start a new thread that doesn't get merged with this one?

[glo]

What was this thread about again?

I agree, Muezzin.

It is nigh impossible to make sense of this huge thread ...

[جوري]

Oh, why ?

If the Quran is from God, then it can (and has) and shall (insha'Allah) withstand the test of time-- indeed the two threads are very related..
Also you can't start a thread like this in the 'comparative' section and expect that there shouldn't be some sort of scrutiny to the bible!

Sort of reminds me of the fellow who started a thread on God's motivation for creation, didn't like the replies given, then when asked for his perspective, not only did he answer along the same lines, save for the parts he didn't know but a far inferior subjective inference about immolation and sacrificial gift giving that he expects to have some logical profound effect on the rest of us!

This thread will suffice, given my reply on the Quran's descent to earth and the painstaking task of its preservation.. we are yet to see the inscrutable workings of the bible brought into some sort of light!

all the best

[Follower]

This is how muslims respect Jesus?

Isn't it amazing, that the Jews whom allegedly Jesus is one of, claim that he is a son of an adulterer (astghfor'Allah), are the Jewish historians wrong?

The fact that Mohammad couldn't read or write doesn't mean he couldn't be a poet or know alot of words he heard from his travels and meeting with the Jews and Christians living in the area. He had scribes working for him, scribes that at time told him now to make a verse sound better. Just because he couldn't read doesn't mean he wasn't a greta mathematiciam, scientist, ruler, leader, businessman, etc.

The so called scientific miracles of the Quran have all been disproved.

Writing a better verse?- too subjective, no measurable markers.

Where are the eyewitnesses that saw the angel Gabriel speak to Mohammad, or a bright light or something other then just Mohammad telling people this happeneed.

Joseph had a dream where Gabriel came to him and assured him of Mary. The empty tomb had multiple witnesses, the crucifixon had multiple witnesses, Pauls conversion had multiple witnesses, Jesus' ressurection had multiple witnesses, etc.

Then there are all the prophecies fulfilled in the Holy Bible- where are these in the Quran.

There has to be proof- The Holy Bible warns us about false prophet.

[جوري]

This is how muslims respect Jesus?

jesus gets proper respect.. at least we don't make him into thrice the adulterer!

The fact that Mohammad couldn't read or write doesn't mean he couldn't be a poet or know alot of words he heard from his travels and meeting with the Jews and Christians living in the area. He had scribes working for him, scribes that at time told him now to make a verse sound better. Just because he couldn't read doesn't mean he wasn't a greta mathematiciam, scientist, ruler, leader, businessman, etc.

Good to know, how about you back up your statements with some historical facts?

The so called scientific miracles of the Quran have all been disproved.

I think you are mixing Christianity with Islam.. All the nonsense you pass as logical in your books has been disproved.. now people know they won't fall off the edge of the world.. that women aren't akin to animals.. that earth isn't 6000 yrs old only... etc etc.

Writing a better verse?- too subjective, no measurable markers.

Actually the markers have been set.. bring a book that will withstand the test of time, be a guidance to billions across the globe, cover every aspect of human life, politics, economics, social structure, beliefs, inheritance, how to govern a state, insights into things past, things happening, things to come and then you can talk of subjective!

Where are the eyewitnesses that saw the angel Gabriel speak to Mohammad, or a bright light or something other then just Mohammad telling people this happeneed.

Actually that is not true at all, several instances, were reported including with the sahaba and a blind man. Let's contrast that with Paul's vision or doubting Thomas dreams or or or.. I am not even going to through the unverifiable virgin birth of Jesus, because that would be as lowely as the christian and Jewish version of the events.

Joseph had a dream where Gabriel came to him and assured him of Mary. The empty tomb had multiple witnesses, the crucifixon had multiple witnesses, Pauls conversion had multiple witnesses, Jesus' ressurection had multiple witnesses, etc.

actually none.. and no proper chain of isnad.. you don't even know who the actual authors of your bibles to verify such an event.. There you shows no historical record of the man jesus, in fact even Josephus writing has come under great scrutiny and I have covered that in other threads!

Then there are all the prophecies fulfilled in the Holy Bible- where are these in the Quran.

Tons of prophecies fulfilled and to be fulfilled, browse the forum.. including all that you fear now, which is Islam being the dominant religion in the world Insha'Allah!

There has to be proof- The Holy Bible warns us about false prophet.

Indeed.. except it is too late now, as you have made gods of men, left two ineffectual gods behind for the human figure head of jesus...

all the best with that

happy evangelizing

[alcurad]

...He had scribes working for him, scribes that at time told him now to make a verse sound better...

source?

there is only a single weak narration that states so, the chain of narrators is non existent in the first place.

[GreyKode]

This is how muslims respect Jesus?

Isn't it amazing, that the Jews whom allegedly Jesus is one of, claim that he is a son of an adulterer (astghfor'Allah), are the Jewish historians wrong?

She says allegedly the jews claim so,

Stop lying Follower. I DARE YOU TO FIND A SINGLE WEBSITE on all of the twisted internet or a video on youtube made by a muslim that even tries to mock prophet jesus(pbuh). NOT A SINGLE ONE

While on the other hand there are thousands of websites of cowards who mock both
the prophet muhammad and jesus (pbut), made by christians, jews and atheists.

[Hugo]

She says allegedly the jews claim so,

Stop lying Follower. I DARE YOU TO FIND A SINGLE WEBSITE on all of the twisted internet or a video on youtube made by a muslim that even tries to mock prophet jesus(pbuh). NOT A SINGLE ONE

While on the other hand there are thousands of websites of cowards who mock both
the prophet muhammad and jesus (pbut), made by christians, jews and atheists.

I hope you are right but go and look through the posts for Gossamer in this board and see how she describes the bible as an 'hilarious mess' and since that is the place where we learn most about Jesus I think we have found a site where Jesus is vilified.

One might also note that the Qu'ran many time exhorts us to look at the previous scriptures (eg. 12:111) so Gossamer in this board denigrates what the Qu'ran commends.

[Follower]

Remember the Quran confirms the Bible.

I used to believe that it just confirmed the Torah and Gospel but as I have studied more I see that the Quran also confirms the Holy Bible that was in existance at the time of Mohammad.

What in the world is this thrice adulterer business? GOD had sex with Mary? GOD is spirit- does not take human form to have sex with people! GOD took human form to save people.

But Muslims think GOD is uncapable of taking human form- yet his angel is capable.

Luke 1
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

In the Quran the angel Gabriel becomes the perfect man and Mary puts us a screen. Why the need for the screen?

019.017
YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

[جوري]

I hope you are right but go and look through the posts for Gossamer in this board and see how she describes the bible as an 'hilarious mess' and since that is the place where we learn most about Jesus I think we have found a site where Jesus is vilified.

One might also note that the Qu'ran many time exhorts us to look at the previous scriptures (eg. 12:111) so Gossamer in this board denigrates what the Qu'ran commends.

Actually your scriptures are a hilarious mess.. there is no denigration of the holy Quran in saying so. The Quran abrogates what you've made lawful.. use your noodles!

all the best

[جوري]

Remember the Quran confirms the Bible.

I used to believe that it just confirmed the Torah and Gospel but as I have studied more I see that the Quran also confirms the Holy Bible that was in existance at the time of Mohammad.

What in the world is this thrice adulterer business? GOD had sex with Mary? GOD is spirit- does not take human form to have sex with people! GOD took human form to save people.

But Muslims think GOD is uncapable of taking human form- yet his angel is capable.

Luke 1
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

In the Quran the angel Gabriel becomes the perfect man and Mary puts us a screen. Why the need for the screen?

019.017
YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

The Quran doesn't confirm the bible.. the Quran addresses amongst other things, the stories of the prophets what (you have is a deranged pagan mythology book) that makes gods of men.. You don't have the people of the Quran in your bible for instance, I see no reference to ahl- al-kahf..
early Christians who took refuge in a cave from persecution. Why don't you bring me their story from the bible, so we can see what it is the Quran confirms.. Also he who visited Mary in accordance to you is another God, the hovering one, the one that takes the last seat in that wagon not Gabriel!

since the Quran came to you courtesy of false prophets, I don't see how it is of use to you..

The Thing is I am under the weather now a days and don't want to deal you a bad enough blow so you'd buzz off instead of constantly rolling bad like a bad penny.. and take your cronies with you!

Happy evangelizing!

all the best

['Abd-al Latif]

*sigh* does anyone think that this thread is going to go around in circles and won't go anywhere?

This is how muslims respect Jesus?

Isn't it amazing, that the Jews whom allegedly Jesus is one of, claim that he is a son of an adulterer (astghfor'Allah), are the Jewish historians wrong?

The fact that Mohammad couldn't read or write doesn't mean he couldn't be a poet or know alot of words he heard from his travels and meeting with the Jews and Christians living in the area. He had scribes working for him, scribes that at time told him now to make a verse sound better. Just because he couldn't read doesn't mean he wasn't a greta mathematiciam, scientist, ruler, leader, businessman, etc.

Wow, another quote from someone who has never read the Qur'an.

You know what the non-muslims said when Prophet Muhammad was alive? They would say this:

Nay! say they: Medleys of dreams; nay! he has forged it; nay! he is a poet; so let him bring to us a sign as the former (prophets) were sent (with). [21:05]

They also said:

Surely they used to behave proudly when it was said to them: There is no god but Allah;

And say: "What! shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet possessed?" [37:35-36]

And they also say:

Or do they say:- "A Poet! we await for him some calamity (hatched) by Time!" [52:30]

And you know what Allah says about them? He says:

It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!

Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind.

(This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds. [69:41-43]

Allah also says:

We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear: [39:39]

The so called scientific miracles of the Quran have all been disproved.

To some one who has no sense.

Where are the eyewitnesses that saw the angel Gabriel speak to Mohammad, or a bright light or something other then just Mohammad telling people this happeneed.

Joseph had a dream where Gabriel came to him and assured him of Mary. The empty tomb had multiple witnesses, the crucifixon had multiple witnesses, Pauls conversion had multiple witnesses, Jesus' ressurection had multiple witnesses, etc.

Then there are all the prophecies fulfilled in the Holy Bible- where are these in the Quran.

There has to be proof- The Holy Bible warns us about false prophet.

Follower, i'm really beginning to get tired of repeating my self again and again on telling you to stop speaking about the Qur'an unless you've actually read it. If you carry on like this you'll receive an infraction.

[جوري]

*sigh* does anyone think that this thread is going to go around in circles and won't go anywhere?



Wow, another quote from someone who has never read the Qur'an.

And We have not taught him (Muhammad) poetry, nor is it meet for him. This is naught else than a Reminder and a Lecture making plain, [39:39]

To some one who has no sense.

Follower, i'm really beginning to get tired of repeating my self again and again on telling you to stop speaking about the Qur'an unless you've actually read it. If you carry on like this infract.

why don't you just get rid of him? there is no point of a meaningful dialogue, and I rather think they come here to take advantage of Muslim mannerism (Thank God an area I haven't perfected yet) to dump their agenda..I don't enjoy guests who incommode their hosts.. the thing is, this particular fellow, mocks Islam and constantly berates the prophet, pounces on one Quote that has positively no relation to the book they hold in their hand to assert to people moot point. He thinks the book came to you courtesy of a false prophet-- why he quotes it is beyond me?, him and the other kid who can't even take the time to read the responses given him let alone any common sense and is rather akin to atheists, since nothing in his own religion makes sense to him..

why do you keep folks like that on board?

:w:

[YusufNoor]

why don't you just get rid of him? there is no point of a meaningful dialogue, and I rather think they come here to take advantage of Muslim mannerism (Thank God an area I haven't perfected yet) to dump their agenda..I don't enjoy guests who incommode their hosts.. the thing is, this particular fellow, mocks Islam and constantly berates the prophet, pounces on one Quote that has positively no relation to the book they hold in their hand to assert to people moot point. He thinks the book came to you courtesy of a false prophet-- why he quotes it is beyond me?, him and the other kid who can't even take the time to read the responses given him let alone any common sense and is rather akin to atheists, since nothing in his own religion makes sense to him..

why do you keep folks like that on board?

:w:

:sl:

i agree with the sister. if you are going to let dipsticks like this clown hang around, at least mod his drivel.

it's frustrating for the rest of us. i mean, how can we not respond? are we not required to try to stop it, or at least speak out against it? and to respond to most of his crap, we have to bring ourselves down to his level.
and in doing so, we violate Islamic principles.

BUT we have to respond...

:w:

[جوري]

source?

there is only a single weak narration that states so, the chain of narrators is non existent in the first place.

that is how they find any fault in the Quran in the first place..
they invent it, then they circulate it, then they believe it.. and then come quote people who invented as the source lol..

it is because I say so, from 'can the quran stand', follower.p9

:w:

[Follower]

You are not understanding.

Those verses prove nothing. It is possible that Mohammad says of himself that he is not a poet. Proof. We need proof that this is Allah saying this.

It is Mohammd himself saying he is a prophet. I could say that I am a prophet- anyone could. Where is the proof that he is a prophet of GOD?

Where is the witness that is told by GOD or Gabriel that Mohammd is a prophet?

Where are the eyewitnesses saying that they also saw the angel Gabriel revealing messages to Mohammad?

['Abd-al Latif]

I'm sure you can get the answer from other threads where you have argued about something similar.

EDIT: Read his bio, read the Qur'an otherwise don't comment over something you don't know of and inturn ask useless questions such the above.

:threadclo: