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KiWi
03-15-2009, 09:39 PM
:sl:

Ok, here’s the thing
my friends and I have been having this argument for a while now
as far as I know, we muslims are allowed to eat from jews and chritians
I gave my friends a hadeeth saying that the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) used to eat from them
there’s one example I gave them was when the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him)
ate from a jewish woman who poisned his meat
and the other proof I gave them was from the quran saying:
“This day all good and pure things are made lawful for you and the food of the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them and chaste Muslim women and chaste women from amongst those who were given the Book before you, when you give them their dowries while bringing them in bondage (through marriage) nor for lust and nor making lover (secretly) And whoso becomes infidel after being a Muslim, his entire work is destroyed and he is a loser in the Hereafter.” [5:5]
and they kept on arguing that we shouldn’t be eating from them
and that this doesn’t really apply to us. also ppl of the Book are not the same as ppl of the Book today
jews and Christians long time ago followed the bible and the torah
they said that now that the bible has been “changed” so many times, this ayah doesn’t really apply to the ppl in today’s world
is this true?
so I want to get u guys’ opinion on this
are we allowed to eat from the jewish and the Christians?
if u guys have hadeeth to confirm this, plz post it here

jazakumallahu khairun guys
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KiWi
03-15-2009, 11:42 PM
plz anyone? :? imsad
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alcurad
03-15-2009, 11:55 PM
how did they change though? there is no difference when it comes to dietary laws.
Reply

doorster
03-16-2009, 12:06 AM
:sl:

Haram and Halal Meat

Halal

  1. Meat of permitted 4 footed animals on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter
  2. Meat that is otherwise haram under force of necessity without willful disobedience of Allah
  3. Meat of animals slaughtered by Jews and Christians as long as they follow their own Book
  4. Meat of animals where there is doubt of the method and whether Allah’s name is mentioned only in case it promotes the cause of Allah

Haram

  1. Dead Meat
  2. Blood
  3. Flesh of swine (pork, etc)
  4. Meat of animals on which the name of any entity or deity (other than Allah) has been mentioned.
  5. Meat of animal on which no name has been mentioned.
  6. Meat of animals whose death was caused due to the 7 causes mentioned in ayat 5:4
  7. Food prepared by atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and other polytheists
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KiWi
03-16-2009, 12:12 AM
well my friends were saying that the bible itself has been revised so many times
(i think they do this every year... allahu a3lam)
and for that reason the ayah in the quran doesnt really apply to the christians today

i dont know... that's y i need to know if this is true
im kind of confused
Reply

doorster
03-16-2009, 12:18 AM
can you possibly spare a few minutes to actually read the thread @ Haram and Halal Meat
Reply

KiWi
03-16-2009, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
:sl:

Haram and Halal Meat

Halal

  1. Meat of permitted 4 footed animals on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter
  2. Meat that is otherwise haram under force of necessity without willful disobedience of Allah
  3. Meat of animals slaughtered by Jews and Christians as long as they follow their own Book
  4. Meat of animals where there is doubt of the method and whether Allah’s name is mentioned only in case it promotes the cause of Allah

Haram

  1. Dead Meat
  2. Blood
  3. Flesh of swine (pork, etc)
  4. Meat of animals on which the name of any entity or deity (other than Allah) has been mentioned.
  5. Meat of animal on which no name has been mentioned.
  6. Meat of animals whose death was caused due to the 7 causes mentioned in ayat 5:4
  7. Food prepared by atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and other polytheists

5. how do we know if they mentioned any name when its being slaughtered?
6. how do we know if they are even slaughtering the meat and not boiling them in hot water?
We have no knowledge of how this is done. Its not like if we go to the restaurant they will tell us
if they slaughtered the chicken instead of boiling it or if they mentioned any name
doesn’t that mean the meat is haram?
and also, how do we know if the ppl of the Book actually follow their book?
What I mean by this is that they might be a christian or a jew by name that doesn’t necessarily mean that they follow their Book….does that make sense?
Reply

KiWi
03-16-2009, 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
can you possible spare a few minutes to actually read the thread @ Haram and Halal Meat
sorry, the comment above u was for alcurad
Reply

doorster
03-16-2009, 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by Orange
5. how do we know if they mentioned any name when its being slaughtered?
6. how do we know if they are even slaughtering the meat and not boiling them in hot water?
We have no knowledge of how this is done. Its not like if we go to the restaurant they will tell us
if they slaughtered the chicken instead of boiling it or if they mentioned any name
doesn’t that mean the meat is haram?
and also, how do we know if the ppl of the Book actually follow their book?
What I mean by this is that they might be a christian or a jew by name that doesn’t necessarily mean that they follow their Book….does that make sense?
if you would take the time and trouble to read the thread Allah willing, it would become clear, if after having read the thread, you still have questions then post back and I will try (if allowed) to answer them.
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KiWi
03-16-2009, 01:52 AM
Wow, that was some article
it was very well written Mashllah
and Subhanllah it totally changed my view
It makes a whole lot sense now
Jazakallah khair akhi for the article
May Allah reward u and grant u Jannatul Firdous InshAllah
Reply

doorster
03-16-2009, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by Orange
Wow, that was some article
it was very well written Mashllah
and Subhanllah it totally changed my view
It makes a whole lot sense now
Jazakallah khair akhi for the article
May Allah reward u and grant u Jannatul Firdous InshAllah
:)

jazakillah khair wa janat e fiidous!!!

:w:

:peace:
Reply

KiWi
03-16-2009, 02:17 AM
ameen wa iyyakum akhi
Reply

AnonyMouse~
03-17-2009, 06:42 PM
MashaAllah amazing article bro ameeen and inshaAllah to the duaa.
Reply

KiWi
03-17-2009, 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Amnuh
MashaAllah amazing article bro ameeen and inshaAllah to the duaa.
Amna :D
remember the arguments we used to have abt this topic?
daaang girl. im sorry, i stand corrected :-[
Reply

KiWi
03-17-2009, 06:46 PM
Aaarrrrrgggggggggggh,
i quoted the wrong comment!!!
Reply

Kafir
03-17-2009, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Orange
well my friends were saying that the bible itself has been revised so many times
(i think they do this every year... allahu a3lam)
and for that reason the ayah in the quran doesnt really apply to the christians today

i dont know... that's y i need to know if this is true
im kind of confused

Many Christians feel that they are no longer held under the law of the Old Testament because Jesus provided a new covenant. Though Jesus said repeatedly he did not come to undo the laws Moses gave, many Christians argue that his resummation of the commandments as love release them from the old laws.

As a scholar of theology I personally feel this is just laziness and ignorance of scirpture on behalf of Christians. But its so prevalent and popular in tradition that you are hard pressed to find ANY Christian which keeps dietary laws.

The Bible is NOT revised every year by some official council of Christendom. A little history: In the first few centuries following Christ there was a multitude of Christian scripture floating about. The roman empire was in dire need of an institution in which to secure the throne and unite the empire. So Constantine held a council in 329 ad with the leaders of Christians factions and they essentially voted on what would be the christology and scriptures of the new state religion. Many councils came to pass since in which books of the Bible were taken out or interpolated, the attributes of significant biblical personages were voted on, etc. There are alot of other issues such as errors from block printing, mistranslations, etc.

There was no official canonized of version of the Bible until long after Mohammad died. And by the time of the reformation there were more disputes between factions of Christian belief causing mroe revisions of Bibles. At this time there are about 1,900 different Bible translations. Their variances between one another aren't too large, (With exception to ancient texts such as the Nag Hamadi or the Dead Sea Scrolls) most are a result of language translation and refinement. Take for example the difference between the King James Version and the Catholic Study Bible KJV. One is written in old poetic language where the other strives to be in modern english with foot notes to explain the differences.

Anytime you attempt to put a scripture in another language huge issues result. Take for example how many English speakers scream about the Qur'an passage concerning discipline of one's argumentative wife. Though in the original arabic the word implies hitting with a tooth brush (which would clearly not be a beating in any true sense of the word) the word doesn't translate and is just left with an explanation of hitting. Because its so open ended alot of English speakers are under the assumption that Muslims are told by Mohommad to beat their wives! And of course, they point to domestic violence in the east as an underscoring of their mistranslation. They are ignorant of the original text, just as many modern Christians are ignorant of what the Bible says concerning law in koine Greek.
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doorster
03-17-2009, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Kafir
Many Christians feel that they are no longer held under the law of the Old Testament because Jesus provided a new covenant. Though Jesus said repeatedly he did not come to undo the laws Moses gave, many Christians argue that his resummation of the commandments as love release them from the old laws.

As a scholar of theology I personally feel this is just laziness and ignorance of scirpture on behalf of Christians. But its so prevalent and popular in tradition that you are hard pressed to find ANY Christian which keeps dietary laws.

The Bible is NOT revised every year by some official council of Christendom. A little history: In the first few centuries following Christ there was a multitude of Christian scripture floating about. The roman empire was in dire need of an institution in which to secure the throne and unite the empire. So Constantine held a council in 329 ad with the leaders of Christians factions and they essentially voted on what would be the christology and scriptures of the new state religion. Many councils came to pass since in which books of the Bible were taken out or interpolated, the attributes of significant biblical personages were voted on, etc. There are alot of other issues such as errors from block printing, mistranslations, etc.

There was no official canonized of version of the Bible until long after Mohammad died. And by the time of the reformation there were more disputes between factions of Christian belief causing mroe revisions of Bibles. At this time there are about 1,900 different Bible translations. Their variances between one another aren't too large, (With exception to ancient texts such as the Nag Hamadi or the Dead Sea Scrolls) most are a result of language translation and refinement. Take for example the difference between the King James Version and the Catholic Study Bible KJV. One is written in old poetic language where the other strives to be in modern english with foot notes to explain the differences.

Anytime you attempt to put a scripture in another language huge issues result. Take for example how many English speakers scream about the Qur'an passage concerning discipline of one's argumentative wife. Though in the original arabic the word implies hitting with a tooth brush (which would clearly not be a beating in any true sense of the word) the word doesn't translate and is just left with an explanation of hitting. Because its so open ended alot of English speakers are under the assumption that Muslims are told by Mohommad to beat their wives! And of course, they point to domestic violence in the east as an underscoring of their mistranslation. They are ignorant of the original text, just as many modern Christians are ignorant of what the Bible says concerning law in koine Greek.
wow! best defence of Christianity and Christian Bible I've seen here by a "I am no longer a Catholic" at the same time taking a cunningly clever dig at The Quraan

original arabic the word implies hitting with a tooth brush
it does no such thing but it means to push away (separate) for good

the thread is about what we, Muslims, are allowed to eat, it is not about mistranslation of Bible or Quraan
Reply

Kafir
03-18-2009, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
wow! best defence of Christianity and Christian Bible I've seen here by a "I am no longer a Catholic" at the same time taking a cunningly clever dig at The Quraan

it does no such thing but it means to seperate for good

anyway the thread is about what we, Muslims, are allowed to eat, it is not about mis-translation of Bible or Quraan
1) How exactly amd I defending Christianity by stating that it has been interpolated and scripture VOTED upon to create a state religion that would secure power? That is typically embarassing history to Christians.

2) How is it I am digging at the Qur'an by stating that translation to other languages can cause issues? If anything I defended the quran by mentioning the toothbrush passage.

You are seeing demons where there are none. What are you following me by thread seeking fault and imagining negative things?

And when someone asks about the history of dietary laws including of Jews and Christians it will include interpretation of the Bible.

I'm really growing tired of your outrageous nit picking. You sincerely dissapoint me.
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doorster
03-18-2009, 02:25 AM
off topic again, stop taking over threads which already have been resolved to the satisfaction of the thread starter and at least one Administrator!


I still have not received permission to argue with you therefore you'll have to wait for the fight that you so desperately crave, until I get the go-ahead!!
Reply

Kafir
03-18-2009, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
off topic again, stop taking over threads which already have been resolved to the satisfaction of the thread starter and at least one Administrator!


I still have not received permission to argue with you therefore you'll have to wait for the fight that you so desperately crave, until I get the go-ahead!!

I wouldn't have anything to say to you to begin with if you didn't make constant snide remarks to me, now would I?

You don't need permission to argue with me. You are a big boy, please go ahead and spew publically all your unfounded hatred on me for not being a muslim. You'll only manage to push me further away from Islam, as your disgusting behavior has done the last two days, congratulations!
Reply

doorster
03-18-2009, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Kafir
I wouldn't have anything to say to you to begin with if you didn't make constant snide remarks to me, now would I?

You don't need permission to argue with me. You are a big boy, please go ahead and spew publically all your unfounded hatred on me for not being a muslim. You'll only manage to push me further away from Islam, as your disgusting behavior has done the last two days, congratulations!
ooh what lovely manners :(

BTW I do need permission unless I want to be deleted/banned etc. which I would not want for time being

the thread is STILL about what we, Muslims, are allowed to eat, it is not about mistranslation of Bible or Quraan or about anyone's ego trips
Reply

YusufNoor
03-18-2009, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
ooh what lovely manners :(

BTW I do need permission unless I want to be deleted/banned etc. which I would not want for time being

the thread is STILL about what we, Muslims, are allowed to eat, it is not about mistranslation of Bible or Quraan or about anyone's ego trips
:sl:

Brother Shabbir,

perhaps you missed what the Sister in humanity was referring to? it was regarding what is lawful to Christians; which was a subset of this little discussion about whether or not food of the people of the book was OK for Muslims. after all, if the Christians decide that EVERYTHING for them is lawful, does that mean we can eat it? [which is, btw, a rhetorical question]

also, i was reading the nice article that you posted and i was having trouble reconciling these 2 statements:

Does saying bismillah at the time of eating make the meat halal?

Some Muslims argue that since the Qur’an decrees the mention of Allah’s name for the meat to be halal, one may just simply say bismillah at the time of consumption if he has doubt of it having been slaughtered properly.

Dr. Donia addresses to this question as well very beautifully in the following words:

* “I have never heard that saying Bismillah on food which is unlawful turns it into lawful food. What I am sure of is that the Prophet (pbuh) used to say Bismillah when he commenced eating any food or drinking liquids, thereby blessing them and making them useful with the grace of Bismillah. Furthermore, he advised Muslims to do the same, but he never told them that what was unlawful could be lawful by saying Bismillah over it.”
Therefore, the message of this hadith is that the situation warrants an exception to the rule. If we realize that there is a situation in the initial stages of da`wah (invitation to the Straight Path) which warrants a similar need, then we may consider following this practice. In other words, if we are in a situation where we do not want to hurt the feelings of our host who is keen to learn about our ways and the Truth while we preach Islam to him, then we may consume the meat after saying bismillahir rahimanir rahim. This could be while preaching to a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Many of today’s Muslims are like the new Muslims who have little knowledge of Islam. Likewise, when Muslims living in the West visit the homes of Christians and Jews, they can get themselves into an embarrassing situation by refusing to eat the food that is offered. This could hurt the feelings of the host while the visitor is trying to tell him about Islam

is that an ad hoc ijtihad? or a fatwa? it would seem rather...Paulian to decide that one can ignore the Qur'an simply to hope to gain a revert, doesn't it?

perhaps you could shed some light upon it?

:w:
Reply

doorster
03-18-2009, 03:37 AM
Therefore, the message of this hadith is that the situation warrants an exception to the rule. If we realize that there is a situation in the initial stages of da`wah (invitation to the Straight Path) which warrants a similar need, then we may consider following this practice. In other words, if we are in a situation where we do not want to hurt the feelings of our host who is keen to learn about our ways and the Truth while we preach Islam to him, then we may consume the meat after saying bismillahir rahimanir rahim. This could be while preaching to a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Many of today’s Muslims are like the new Muslims who have little knowledge of Islam. Likewise, when Muslims living in the West visit the homes of Christians and Jews, they can get themselves into an embarrassing situation by refusing to eat the food that is offered. This could hurt the feelings of the host while the visitor is trying to tell him about Islam
is that an ad hoc ijtihad? or a fatwa? it would seem rather...Paulian to decide that one can ignore the Qur'an simply to hope to gain a revert, doesn't it?

perhaps you could shed some light upon it?
:sl:

It is in context of a country where Arab scholars made it absolutely halal to consume supermarket meat on basis of the hadees

what you highlight is is rather a refutation of those who are using hadees to make it halal to consume on permanent basis, whereas we will only eat this food in absolutely extreme cases and It is Not recommended for the normal every day Muslim to put him/herself in to a situation like quoted above, for they are not trained to judge whether someone is on verge of coming to Islam or just out to corrupt them, teachers/Imams etc could eat before they make a visit and abstain from such food and accept a tea or other soft drink.
......................................

Regarding the sister in humanity, she has taken a dislike to brother alucard in lieu of something that I pointed out in one of her posts, since then she went ballistic and started an off-topic-post festival in at least 3 threads (called me a lapdog etc.)
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AnonyMouse~
03-18-2009, 03:52 PM
Its amnuh with a 'UH' on this site, got it? :@

and its ok girlfrayand~ dont be sorry.

if u accepted it just cuz i said it ur belief about it wudnt be as strong so alhamdulilah at least now u accept with complete faith :P
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KiWi
03-18-2009, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Amnuh
Its amnuh with a 'UH' on this site, got it? :@

and its ok girlfrayand~ dont be sorry.

if u accepted it just cuz i said it ur belief about it wudnt be as strong so alhamdulilah at least now u accept with complete faith :P

geeeeee amnUH happy? XD
anyways, alhamdulillah at least now it makes sense :statisfie
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