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Follower
03-16-2009, 09:37 PM
But they do have to pay a tax?!

9:29

Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over the fee paid by non-Moslems living in a Moslem society from a hand, and they are subservient/humiliated .

do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book

Why would Msulims be ordered to not follow a path that is right?
Reply

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'Abd-al Latif
03-20-2009, 11:11 PM
The religion of the People of the Book isn't the complete truth, however it has some information about Allah in their scriptures which hasn't been changed by man.

The only path that has no ambiguity or crookedness is the path of Islam, all other paths will lead one astray.
Reply

doorster
03-20-2009, 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The religion of the People of the Book isn't the complete truth, however it has some information about Allah in their scriptures which hasn't been changed by man.

The only path that has no ambiguity or crookedness is the path of Islam, all other paths will lead one astray.
who approved his distortions and why?

another question:

does a literal translation of a sentence from one language to another convey the intended meaning? is sentence structure in Arabic same as its equivalent in English? is Arabic Grammar exact replica of Arabic Grammar?
.................................................. .....................................

Originally Posted by Follower
But they do have to pay a tax?!

9:29

Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, anddo not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over the fee paid by non-Moslems living in a Moslem society from a hand, and they are subservient/humiliated .

do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book

Why would Msulims be ordered to not follow a path that is right?
according to a Pakistani linguist (not a great scholar but expert in old Arabic) actual intended meaning is:

Fight against those who reject belief in Allah and the Last Day, and hold not Sacred what Allah and His Messenger have declared Sacred, nor acknowledge the Divine System, among those who received the Scripture, until they pay the tax, with willing submission, and feel themselves subjects of the State as law-abiding citizens. As citizens of the State they must pay taxes, as the Muslims contribute toward the Just Economic Order through Zakat. In return, the State will guarantee them internal and external security, and equal rights of citizenship. The tax on them will always be less than the tax (Zakat) on Muslims, and will be payable only by the able-bodied Non-Muslim citizens of the State. In addition, these able-bodied citizens would be exempt from military service which is compulsory duty for Muslims.
Reply

GreyKode
03-20-2009, 11:32 PM
Is this follower guy playing dumb or what?That's not what the verse means.
"ALLA ZEENA LA YADINUNA DEEN AL HAQQ" it means the ones who don't follow the right religion.
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aamirsaab
03-21-2009, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
But they do have to pay a tax?!

9:29

Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over the fee paid by non-Moslems living in a Moslem society from a hand, and they are subservient/humiliated .

do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book

Why would Msulims be ordered to not follow a path that is right?
Here's the actual verse:
9: 29
''You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.''

See the difference in the two translations? One makes sense (mine) the other doesn't (yours). So your ''question'' isn't a question at all. (take especial note of the BOLDED bit - it does not say what you originally claimed)

Edit: are you copying and pasting these 'ayats' from hate sites? If so, you really should stop that. It's annoying and makes you look silly.
Reply

coddles76
03-23-2009, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
But they do have to pay a tax?!

9:29

Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over the fee paid by non-Moslems living in a Moslem society from a hand, and they are subservient/humiliated .

do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book

Why would Msulims be ordered to not follow a path that is right?
I guess your user ID explains alot. You follow the pack of ants blindly without actually using your faculty of reasoning which was given to you by your creator and to be utilised intelligent/wise manner. Try to open your heart to reasoning and set aside all what you hear from others and just sit down one day and allow your brain energy to take control.
Reply

Follower
03-23-2009, 01:44 PM
No coddles you are mis interpreting this verse, it is:

Fight/kill those who do not believe with God

Fight/kill those who do not believen in the Day the Last/Resurrection Day

Fight/kill those who do not believe and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited,

Fight/kill those who do not believe and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book
Reply

Follower
03-23-2009, 01:49 PM
Do you see now how easily verses can be mis-interpreted?

Abdallatif - went right along with it the verses, twisting it to mean that the People of the Book follow: The religion of the People of the Book isn't the complete truth, however it has some information about Allah in their scriptures which hasn't been changed by man.

aamirsaab-

I am looking for literal meanings of the verses. The site I am using is:

http://www.yaqb.org/http://www.yaqb.org/

I don't think this is a hate site.
Reply

aamirsaab
03-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
...
aamirsaab-

I am looking for literal meanings of the verses. The site I am using is:

http://www.yaqb.org/http://www.yaqb.org/

I don't think this is a hate site.
Literal translation will only confuse you (as is the case!). That site has several translations listed - and they all correspond with the ony I gave. There is no issue here.
Reply

YusufNoor
03-23-2009, 02:00 PM
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

here are a few translations of 9:29:

Muhsin Khan: Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Pickthal: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Shakir: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Sahih International: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
Dr. Ghali: Fight the ones who do not believe in Allah nor in the Last Day, and do not prohibit whatever Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, and do not practice (Literally: to have as a religion) the religion of Truth-from among the ones to whom the Book was brought-until they give the tax out of hand (i.e., by a ready money payment, or in token of submission) and have been belittled..

they are taken from this site:

http://quran.islamicnetwork.com/

they clearly identify "Christians: as:

Muhsin Khan: those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam)

Pickthal: [who] follow not the Religion of Truth

Shakir: nor [do they] follow the religion of truth,

Sahih International: who do not adopt the religion of truth

Dr. Ghali: and [who] do not practice (Literally: to have as a religion) the religion of Truth

thus we can rule them out as believers of Truth!

:w:
Reply

YusufNoor
03-23-2009, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
Do you see now how easily verses can be mis-interpreted?

Abdallatif - went right along with it the verses, twisting it to mean that the People of the Book follow: The religion of the People of the Book isn't the complete truth, however it has some information about Allah in their scriptures which hasn't been changed by man.

aamirsaab-

I am looking for literal meanings of the verses. The site I am using is:

http://www.yaqb.org/http://www.yaqb.org/

I don't think this is a hate site.
this site has at least 2 translations by Kafr who claim to Muslim:

Khalifa and Maulana_Ali as well as few i haven't heard of. i recommend NOT using it. use the one i posted instead

:w:
Reply

doorster
03-23-2009, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
this site has at least 2 translations by Kafr who claim to Muslim:

Khalifa and Maulana_Ali as well as few i haven't heard of. i recommend NOT using it. use the one i posted instead

:w:
http://islamawakened.com/quran/caa.html#Khalifa
:w:
Reply

Follower
03-24-2009, 11:08 PM
I need a site that has the literal words, not translated by anyone. Are you saying that the literal words of the Quran can be easily changed/twisted?

009.029
Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over the fee paid by non-Moslems living in a Moslem society from a hand, and they are subservient/humiliated.

YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Of those that were given the Book fight the ones that don't follow it.

Fight against the people given the book that don't follow their own scripture [Quran was not yet written].

and tax only those you fight.

We know the People of the Book are the Christians because of the following verse:

005.068
Say: "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah/Old Testament and the Bible/New Testament , and what was descended to you from your (P) Lord." And what was descended to you (S/M) from your Lord increases (E) many of them tyranny/arrogance, and disbelief, so do not grieve/sadden on the nation, the disbelieving.
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
Reply

Zafran
03-25-2009, 12:26 AM
salaam

If you read it gives you the things the people of the book dont believe - one of the things is they dont follow the religion of truth.

secodaly the bible (a collection of 66/73 books) it is not the Injeel or the Torah the Quran is talking about.


This is also what the Quran says about the christains:

[5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

so it preety clear the christains are not in the religion of truth - furthermore also verses which warn about son of God - saying God is 3 etc which shows clearly that christainty is an astrayed religion according to the Quran.

peace
Reply

Follower
03-27-2009, 01:14 AM
Zapfran - The Injeel discussed in the Quran are the Books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the first 4 books of the New Testament and the Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy the first part of the Old Testament.

Those nine books of the Holy Bible have always been considered Scripture from GOD and a part of the Bible.

Christians do not say that GOD is 3 gods. Christians believe in One True GOD. Our concept of that One True GOD is just different then the Muslims.

The 5.14 verse just means that there are not following the right path- nothing about their scritpures.

Basically saying the same thing that 9:29 is saying - Kill those that have given the Book and don't follow it.

You are saying kill them whether they follow the Book given by GOD or don't follow the Book given by GOD?
Reply

Follower
03-27-2009, 01:34 AM
005.066
YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
PICKTHAL: If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.
SHAKIR: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do
Literal:
And if that they took care of the Torah/Old Testament, and the Bible/New Testament and what was descended to them from their Lord, they would have eaten from above them and from below their feet; from them a nation economizing/moderate, and many from them what they were making/doing became bad/evil/harmful
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2009, 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
Zapfran - The Injeel discussed in the Quran are the Books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the first 4 books of the New Testament and the Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy the first part of the Old Testament.

Those nine books of the Holy Bible have always been considered Scripture from GOD and a part of the Bible.

Christians do not say that GOD is 3 gods. Christians believe in One True GOD. Our concept of that One True GOD is just different then the Muslims.

The 5.14 verse just means that there are not following the right path- nothing about their scritpures.

Basically saying the same thing that 9:29 is saying - Kill those that have given the Book and don't follow it.

You are saying kill them whether they follow the Book given by GOD or don't follow the Book given by GOD?

salaam

no the Injeel is a specific book given to Jesus pbuh not a book made 300 years after his life.

[5.46] And We sent, following in their footsteps (Prophet) Jesus, the son
of Mary, confirming that which was before him in the Torah, and gave him
the Gospel
, in which there is guidance and light, confirming that which was
before him in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the cautious.


The torah is the book Moses pbuh had not the so called Torah they have today - how do we know this because deutornomy describes Moses pbuh being buried! - how can this book be the book given Moses pbuh.

I didnt say christains say God is 3 Gods - but that christains believe GOD(singular) is 3 (trinity)

No 5:14 shows you have forgotton your CONVENANT - the real teachings of christ

[5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

Read 9:29 it context it doesnt say say kill the christains for not following the book.
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2009, 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
005.066
YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
PICKTHAL: If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.
SHAKIR: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do
Literal:
And if that they took care of the Torah/Old Testament, and the Bible/New Testament and what was descended to them from their Lord, they would have eaten from above them and from below their feet; from them a nation economizing/moderate, and many from them what they were making/doing became bad/evil/harmful

[5.65] If the People of the Book had believed and kept from evil, We would
pardon them their sins and admit them to the Gardens of Delight.
[5.66] If they had established the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent
down to them from their Lord they would be eating from above them and from
beneath their feet. Some of them are a righteous nation; but many of them
evil is what they do.

As you can clearly see IF THEY HAD - which shows past tense - you didnt hold to the torah or Injeel according to the Quran.

peace.
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2009, 03:22 AM
salaam

heres the messege of the Quran to christains:

4.171] People of the Book, do not exaggerate your religion. Do not say
about Allah except the truth. Indeed, the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, is
only a Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah, and His Word (Be) which He gave to
Mary, and a (created) spirit by Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers
and do not say: 'Trinity. '
Refrain, it is better for you. Allah is only One God. Exaltations to Him
that He should have son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in
the earth, it is sufficient that Allah is the Guardian.


peace
Reply

Robalo
03-27-2009, 03:56 PM
[QUOTE=Zafran;1116346]salaam

no the Injeel is a specific book given to Jesus pbuh not a book made 300 years after his life.

QUOTE]

Good morning. Being new here I was reading some posts and I wanted to contribute and address the bold statement in the above quote....

Can you please clarify what your statement means, because there was no Injeel given to Christ.


Definition of Injil is the New Testament.

http://www.--------------/about/resources/glossary.html
The NT books of Matthew, Luke, Mark and John were written after the death of Jesus so therefore the Injil did not exist to be given to Christ.


GOSPEL
INJIL
Ar: Injil / Injeel
Gk: Evangelion, meaning the Good News.

In English, it went from "Godspel" to "Gospel". Arabic Injil is said to have come from Greek to Syriac to Arabic
(Arthur Jeffery, The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran, pp. 71-72, quoted by Abdul Haqq, p. 60).
Looking forward to your reply...

Thank you and May God Bless Us, Everyone!
Robalo
Reply

YusufNoor
03-27-2009, 05:57 PM
[QUOTE=Robalo;1116482]
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

no the Injeel is a specific book given to Jesus pbuh not a book made 300 years after his life.

QUOTE]

Can you please clarify what your statement means, because there was no Injeel given to Christ.

The NT books of Matthew, Luke, Mark and John were written after the death of Jesus so therefore the Injil did not exist to be given to Christ.

Looking forward to your reply...

Thank you and May God Bless Us, Everyone!
Robalo
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

the Injeel would be the ACTUAL Message of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam NOT some fairy tales written MUCH MUCH later and used to convert the Injeel into Polytheism and Mithraism/Paganism.

the website you posted is in error.

:w:
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2009, 06:03 PM
[QUOTE=Robalo;1116482]
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

no the Injeel is a specific book given to Jesus pbuh not a book made 300 years after his life.

QUOTE]

Good morning. Being new here I was reading some posts and I wanted to contribute and address the bold statement in the above quote....

Can you please clarify what your statement means, because there was no Injeel given to Christ.




The NT books of Matthew, Luke, Mark and John were written after the death of Jesus so therefore the Injil did not exist to be given to Christ.




Looking forward to your reply...

Thank you and May God Bless Us, Everyone!
Robalo
salaam yes there was as the Quran says

[5.46] And We sent, following in their footsteps (Prophet) Jesus, the son
of Mary, confirming that which was before him in the Torah, and gave him
the Gospel,
in which there is guidance and light, confirming that which was
before him in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the cautious.

Matthew, Mark, John, Paul, Luke and the rest were actually finalised in the Nicea creed - some books didnt make it in the canon - there are also scholars who talk about the Q gospel.These are only the few things that show that Early history of christainty is very fragmented - sects like Ebonites, Arians have preety much been wiped out by the church who clearly disagreed with what the church was preaching. - little or non of there work survives - a pity realy.

whats more intresting is that these sects existed before the canon.


The site - as brother Yusuf said its in error.

peace.
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2009, 06:06 PM
salaam

Mark 1:14-15 - something that could be seen as the Injeel being preached by Jesus pbuh himself.

14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.



could it be the injeel/good news of the Quran??? - intresting realy.
Reply

Robalo
03-27-2009, 06:31 PM
[QUOTE=YusufNoor;1116515]
Originally Posted by Robalo

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

the Injeel would be the ACTUAL Message of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam NOT some fairy tales written MUCH MUCH later and used to convert the Injeel into Polytheism and Mithraism/Paganism.

the website you posted is in error.

:w:
Injeel/Gospel is the actual message of Christ - agreed

Why do you claim that that the Gospels are fairy tales?

I can make the same statement against the Qur'an.

There is no polytheism and or other in Christianity.

The Gospel writers had nothing to gain by "creating fairy" tales because they new the consequence of their actions going against the Hebrews and the Romans.
Reply

Robalo
03-27-2009, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

Mark 1:14-15 - something that could be seen as the Injeel being preached by Jesus pbuh himself.

14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.



could it be the injeel/good news of the Quran??? - intresting realy.
The "gospel of the kingdom of God" refers to the "Word of Good News" not a written document.

Jesus was preaching the Word of God to the people of Galilee.

I've explained already that the word Gospel is from the Greek origin of the word Evangelion.

The word Gospel usually designates a written record of Christ's words and deeds. It is very likely derived from the Anglo-Saxon god (good) and spell (to tell), and is generally treated as the exact equivalent of the Greek euaggelion (eu well, aggello, I bear a message), and the Latin Evangelium, which has passed into French, German, Italian, and other modern languages.

The Greek euaggelion originally signified the "reward of good tidings" given to the messenger, and subsequently "good tidings". Its other important meanings will be set forth in the body of the present general article on the Gospels.
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2009, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Robalo
The "gospel of the kingdom of God" refers to the "Word of Good News" not a written document.

Jesus was preaching the Word of God to the people of Galilee.

I've explained already that the word Gospel is from the Greek origin of the word Evangelion.

The word Gospel usually designates a written record of Christ's words and deeds. It is very likely derived from the Anglo-Saxon god (good) and spell (to tell), and is generally treated as the exact equivalent of the Greek euaggelion (eu well, aggello, I bear a message), and the Latin Evangelium, which has passed into French, German, Italian, and other modern languages.

The Greek euaggelion originally signified the "reward of good tidings" given to the messenger, and subsequently "good tidings". Its other important meanings will be set forth in the body of the present general article on the Gospels.
salaam

God knows what the messege he was preaching at the time - looks like we would never know - the messege could have been orally transmitted to the people. Besides all the gospels in the NT always say "according to" eg The gospel according to mark - showing a specific point of view of Jesus's messege or "good news". Lets not forget about the early christain history and Jewish christains.
Reply

Robalo
03-27-2009, 07:05 PM
[QUOTE=Zafran;1116519]
Originally Posted by Robalo

salaam yes there was as the Quran says

[5.46] And We sent, following in their footsteps (Prophet) Jesus, the son
of Mary, confirming that which was before him in the Torah, and gave him
the Gospel,
in which there is guidance and light, confirming that which was
before him in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the cautious.

Matthew, Mark, John, Paul, Luke and the rest were actually finalised in the Nicea creed - some books didnt make it in the canon - there are also scholars who talk about the Q gospel.These are only the few things that show that Early history of christainty is very fragmented - sects like Ebonites, Arians have preety much been wiped out by the church who clearly disagreed with what the church was preaching. - little or non of there work survives - a pity realy.

whats more intresting is that these sects existed before the canon.


The site - as brother Yusuf said its in error.

peace.

The most logical answer for the word of Torah and Gospel to appear in the Qur'an has to be that Muhammad was surrounded by Jews with their Torah, the Christians with their Gospel.


sects like Ebonites, Arians have preety much been wiped out by the church who clearly disagreed with what the church was preaching. - little or non of there work survives - a pity realy.
First of all, if you study history, none of these groups are the very first footsteps or followers of Christianity. They didn't pop in the picture somewhere around 70-80AD after the destruction of Jerusalem and they were a different type of Jewish/Christians.

And these groups did NOT believe that Christ is the Son of God, just a mere prophet just like Muslims do.

I've never hard of a Q Gospel. Can you tell me more about it?

Thanks!
Robalo
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2009, 07:13 PM
[QUOTE=Robalo;1116546]
Originally Posted by Zafran


The most logical answer for the word of Torah and Gospel to appear in the Qur'an has to be that Muhammad was surrounded by Jews with their Torah, the Christians with their Gospel.




First of all, if you study history, none of these groups are the very first footsteps or followers of Christianity. They didn't pop in the picture somewhere around 70-80AD after the destruction of Jerusalem and they were a different type of Jewish/Christians.

And these groups did NOT believe that Christ is the Son of God, just a mere prophet just like Muslims do.

I've never hard of a Q Gospel. Can you tell me more about it?

Thanks!
Robalo
The words Gospel and Torah are mentioned quite a lot in the Quran i suggest you read the Quran for a better understanding.

The Jerusalem Church was preety much as close as it got to Jesus pbuh - James headed that part - the far more jewish christains then Pauls preaching to the gentiles.

The Q gospel is meant to be the common source Matthew and Luke could have used to write there own Gospels as well as using the earlier gospel of mark.

peace
Reply

Robalo
03-27-2009, 08:01 PM
[QUOTE=Zafran;1116547]
Originally Posted by Robalo

The words Gospel and Torah are mentioned quite a lot in the Quran i suggest you read the Quran for a better understanding.

The Jerusalem Church was preety much as close as it got to Jesus pbuh - James headed that part - the far more jewish christains then Pauls preaching to the gentiles.

The Q gospel is meant to be the common source Matthew and Luke could have used to write there own Gospels as well as using the earlier gospel of mark.

peace
The words Gospel and Torah are mentioned quite a lot in the Quran i suggest you read the Quran for a better understanding.
OK - Torah - if I count correctly 18 times and Gospel around 12, what is the purpose to the statment how many times those two words are mentioned..?


The Jerusalem Church
What is the Jerusalem Church that you are refering too?

James headed that part
What did James head, what part, the part of the Church? Is that what you are saying?

the far more jewish christains then Pauls preaching to the gentiles.
I do not understand what you mean by this. Can you clarify please?

The Q gospel is meant to be the common source Matthew and Luke could have used to write there own Gospels as well as using the earlier gospel of mark.
Can you please post a link of a website where this sort of information is stored so I may read up on it.

Thanks much!
Robalo
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2009, 11:09 PM
OK - Torah - if I count correctly 18 times and Gospel around 12, what is the purpose to the statment how many times those two words are mentioned..?
As i said read the Quran for a better understanding - They were at one time revealed books of God. Pity about there condition today.


What is the Jerusalem Church that you are refering too?
The one headed By James - the so called brother of Jesus pbuh - he preached to the jews. He was for the mosiac Law and preety much was a devout Jew but believed that Jesus pbuh was the messiah. You must have heard of him????



What did James head, what part, the part of the Church? Is that what you are saying?
The more Jewish end of christainty in the early periods of christainty whilst Paul preached to the Gentiles and preety much abrogated the mosiac law.



[QUOTE]
I do not understand what you mean by this. Can you clarify please?


Can you please post a link of a website where this sort of information is stored so I may read up on it.

Thanks much!
salaam

GOOGLE it - its preety much common knowldege there even books on it by bibilcal scholars.

http://bibles.newarchaeology.com/qbible.php
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm

You must have heard of Bart Ehrman and other biblical scholars???????
Reply

YusufNoor
03-28-2009, 12:42 AM
[QUOTE=Robalo;1116538]
Originally Posted by YusufNoor

Injeel/Gospel is the actual message of Christ - agreed

Why do you claim that that the Gospels are fairy tales?

let's see Christians claim that:

1) God became a helpless infant with all that that entails! nowuthubillah!

2) God claimed he was his own father, nowuthubillah!

3) God did know what God was doing! nowuthubillah!

4) God prayed to himself! nowuthubillah!

5) God lost faith in himself! nowuthubillah!


I can make the same statement against the Qur'an.

like those above? methinks not!

There is no polytheism and or other in Christianity.

there's 3 gods in Christianity, 4 in Catholicism! True Monotheism is One True Creator God Who needs no associates!

The Gospel writers had nothing to gain by "creating fairy" tales because they new the consequence of their actions going against the Hebrews and the Romans.


of course they did, Paul changed the entire religion merely to gain more converts! just like the PTL Club, the 700 Club and all those goofy folks on the Telly!
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

asked and answered!

:w:
Reply

Follower
03-30-2009, 07:52 PM
Zaphran- the verses you quote show that somes of the Jews and Christians did not follow the teachings in their scritures not that the scriptures were corrupt.

005.066
YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
PICKTHAL: If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.
SHAKIR: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

Zaphrn why would GOD allow some scripture to become corrupt and other to not?

We know that Paul who lived ca 5 - 67 AD referenced Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles.

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
Reply

Follower
03-30-2009, 08:12 PM
LOL! yusuf you are very confused.

GOD poured, the Quran says threw his soul and word to Mary to become Jesus. We know that GOD is Spirit and is everywhere.

Jesus in human form has GOD as Father, Jesus as Spirit is GOD.

Yes Jesus knew why He was on earth- have you read the Gospels? It is very obvious that He knew He was going away for awhile none could come with Him, but He would be back.

John 10
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Reply

Zafran
03-31-2009, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
Zaphran- the verses you quote show that somes of the Jews and Christians did not follow the teachings in their scritures not that the scriptures were corrupt.

005.066
YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
PICKTHAL: If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.
SHAKIR: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

Zaphrn why would GOD allow some scripture to become corrupt and other to not?

We know that Paul who lived ca 5 - 67 AD referenced Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles.

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
first of all i never said that 5-66 is talking about corruption of scriptue - it says that the Jews and the christains didnt follow there Torah and Gospel(singluar).

By the way it says many not some.

second - Paul is not a prophet in Islam - he wrote after Jesus pbuh and never met him personaly.

today you have 4 gosples (according to 4 men) - Nothing that Jesus pbuh himself had and what the Quran is talking about.

and about corruption of scripture - the christains are to blame for that as God explains.

[5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

I've posted this verse before - read my posts next time. - It explains alot.
Reply

Follower
03-31-2009, 03:18 AM
Paul did meet Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul unlike Mohammad had eye-witnesses and an outside witness in Ananias

Acts 9
Saul's Conversion
1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.

11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."

15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Jesus was the Gospel- Remember the Quran says that GOD threw His Word and soul to Mary which became incarnate as Jesus.

5:14 is not speaking of Scripture but the actions of the people.

So these are all false verses?
2:87
And We had given/brought Moses The Book and We sent from after him with the messengers, and Wegave/brought Jesus Mary's son, the evidences and We supported him with the Holy/Sanctimonious Soul/Spirit , so if whenever a messenger came to you with what yourselves do not desire you become arrogant, so a group you denied and a group you kill.
YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
SHAKIR: And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.
3:3
He descended on you The Book with the truth, confirming to what between His hands, and He descended the Torah and the New Testament/Bible.
YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law and the Gospel before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion.
PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
003.084
Say: "We believed with God, and what descended on us, and what descended on Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the grandchildren , and what Moses and Jesus and the prophets were given/brought from their Lord, we do not separate/distinguish/differentiate between any from them, and we are for Him submitters/surrenderers."
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will."
PICKTHAL: Say: We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
5:44
That We descended the Torah/Old Testament, in it guidance and light, the prophets those who submitted/surrendered , judge/rule with it, to those who guided/Jews , and the knowledgeable Lord worshippers , and the religious scholars with what they memorized/safe kept from God's Book , and they were not on it witnessing/present ; so do not fear the people and fear Me, and do not buy/volunteer with My signs/verses a small price, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the disbelievers.
YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law: therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.
SHAKIR: Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves judged for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they
5:46
And We sent after on their tracks with Jesus, Mary's son confirming for what between his hands from the Torah/Old Testament, and We gave him the New Testament/Bible in it guidance and light, and confirming to what between his hands from the Torah/Old Testament, and guidance and a sermon/advice/warning to the fearing and obeying.
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard.
5:47
And the New Testament's/Bible's people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers .
YUSUFALI:And the New Testament's/Bible's people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
5:48
And We descended to you The Book with the truth , confirming to what between his hands from The Book, and guarding/protecting on it, so judge/rule between them with what God descended and do not follow their self attractions for desires about what came to you from the truth, to each from you We made/put God's decreed way of life/method/law and order , and a clear/easy/plain way , and if God wanted/willed, He would have made you one nation/generation, and but to test you in what He gave you, so race/surpass the goodnesses/generosity, to God your return altogether, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing (P).
YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL: And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
5:68
Say: "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah/Old Testament and the Bible/New Testament , and what was descended to you from your (P) Lord." And what was descended to you (S/M) from your Lord increases (E) many of them tyranny/arrogance, and disbelief, so do not grieve/sadden on the nation, the disbelieving.
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
6:154
Then We brought/gave Moses The Book complete on that best detailing/explaining to every thing, and guidance, and mercy, maybe they believe with their Lord's meeting.
YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
SHAKIR: Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.
Reply

Zafran
03-31-2009, 03:26 AM
first of all your trying to prove Paul by using your bible whcih isnt the Injeel? as i said he isnt a prophet in Islam so we dont regard him as authority


[5.46] And We sent, following in their footsteps (Prophet) Jesus, the son
of Mary, confirming that which was before him in the Torah, and gave him
the Gospel,
in which there is guidance and light, confirming that which was
before him in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the cautious

second - its all good posting verses out of context - and the OT AND THE NT is NOT the Gospel (single) or the Torah of the Quran my reasons have been stated.

[5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

talking about the CONVENANT which the christains neglected.

The torah is the book of Moses pbuh and not the so called Torah they have today - how do we know this because deutornomy describes Moses pbuh being buried! - how can this book be the book given to Moses pbuh whne he is decribed being buried! - not the Torah of the Quran. Of course the contradcitions and double stories too.
Reply

Follower
04-03-2009, 02:11 AM
Zapfran you do not have an argument- you have no eyewitnesses and your Quran came after the fact.

Since the Quran confirms the Gospel all you can say is that the Gospel changed after Mohammad's time?!? LOL! It is the same from shortly after Jesus' death.

The Gospel [singular] is the 4 Books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

We have the proof of Paul and early church fathers that referenced the Gospel that we have today in letters to other churches.

Deutoronmy could have been easily postscripted about his death and burial.

LOL!! Did Mohammad write the Quran? No scribes did and it was compiled after his death.
Reply

Joe98
04-03-2009, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
.....whcih isnt the Injeel?
The thing is that Christians never cliam that Jesus was given any message by g-d.

Rather, Christains say the gospels are ABOUT Jesus, not BY Jesus

-
Reply

Follower
04-03-2009, 01:42 PM
We also say that Jesus is the Gospel.
Reply

Zafran
04-03-2009, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
Zapfran you do not have an argument- you have no eyewitnesses and your Quran came after the fact.

Since the Quran confirms the Gospel all you can say is that the Gospel changed after Mohammad's time?!? LOL! It is the same from shortly after Jesus' death.

The Gospel [singular] is the 4 Books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

We have the proof of Paul and early church fathers that referenced the Gospel that we have today in letters to other churches.

Deutoronmy could have been easily postscripted about his death and burial.

LOL!! Did Mohammad write the Quran? No scribes did and it was compiled after his death.

you see this is the problem with you - your trying to use christian theology on Islamic theology. Two seperate things. Men like Paul and the rest had there brand of christainty(which is what your part of) - other sects had there brand of christainty like the ebonites, Nazerenes - the more Jewish christains who believed in keeping the law.

Christainty was diverse with varouis sects and views. You only have the Pauline Version.- the church preety much destroyed the remaining sects as heretics. Its a pity non of there work survives

furthermore the 4 Gospels are noway the Gospel of Jesus has stated before because the Injeel was given to Christ according to the Quran - which is the whole pont of the thread you made it to show that christains according to the Quiarn are right - which is clear open error as shown.

lets not forget about the Q gospel.

I suggest you learn more about christain history and not just your pauline version.


Again the books of Moses were given to Moses - anything put in after wards like his death shows clear corruption.

also there is clear proof today that NT is corrupt i suggest you check out Bart Ehrman.

Prophet Muhammad pbuh claimed to be a prophet Paul no way was a prophet and did claim to be one. Neither did John, mark and the rest - whats even more odd is that nobody actually knows who wrote those gospels which is even more worrying.

peace.
Reply

Zafran
04-03-2009, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
The thing is that Christians never cliam that Jesus was given any message by g-d.

Rather, Christains say the gospels are ABOUT Jesus, not BY Jesus

-
Thats what christains today say - what about the christains before the Bible as the bible was canonized in 325AD - what about them - as we know there were many brands of early Jewish christainty and not just your Pauline version of it.

peace
Reply

Follower
04-07-2009, 02:24 PM
Why do Muslims follow hadeth? They are not from GOD and were written way after Mohammad? I remember reading 200 years later.

Pauls inspired writings are GOD WORDs. LOL!! Mohammad can receive a revelation and no other can?

Paul's revelation is amazing considering the fact that originally he was condemning and persecuting Christians. At least until until his meeting with on the road to Damascus.

Did you know that some of those Christian sects believed that Jesus was all GOD and his body was a type of mirage.

All believed Jesus to be the Son of GOD. All believed Jesus was crucified.

All Christians try to keep the 10 Comandments- that is GOD's Law.
More specifically Jesus reply to a student:

Matthew 22

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Muslims do not seem to understand that these 2 commandments sum up all of the 10Commandments and every Law from GOD:

Love GOD above everything with every part of your being- GOD comes first in your life because you want to
and
Love your neighbor as yourself- this means even your enemy, non-believers, everyone!

Yes we know the Bible was canonized then - that just means that a final "official" collection of all the different Books were compiled into the Bible which happens to be the Book the Quran is confirming.

The Old Testament Books were recognized much earlier by the Jews and were "official". When Jesus arrived these were the scriptures. In 40-90AD the eyewitness wrote the Gospel. The other scripture used in the New Testament referenced the original Gospel, ie. Paul's writings.

In 150 Christian writers were using the whole New Testament the original 4 Gospels and the letters written by others- calling it the New Covenant.
Reply

rpwelton
04-07-2009, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Follower

All Christians try to keep the 10 Comandments- that is GOD's Law.
Right...

Except for that whole "thou shalt not make graven images" one.
Reply

Zafran
04-07-2009, 04:02 PM
Follower, Follower - You have your Pauline chirstianty - but there was also other sects that were against the Pauline doctrine and the church preety much wiped them out. So its realy hard trying figure what people believed especially the ones that were against the church. It must have been preety radical as they preety much exterminated a lot of there works that only little survives.

and about the commands its the muslims that keep the commands fully - all the 10 commands including the 2 stated by Jesus pbuh - Jesus himself said that it was a route to achieving the kingdom of God - again with is contradictory to christain doctrine itself today. - you have that problem understanding that your version of christainty isnt the only one that was around:)

As I said the scholars are talking about a Q gospel today - what are we going to find in the future as its common knolwedge that early christian history is full of mystery.

about the 10 commandments - I agree with rpwelton you violate "thou shalt not make graven images" command.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
04-13-2009, 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
No coddles you are mis interpreting this verse, it is:

Fight/kill those who do not believe with God

Fight/kill those who do not believen in the Day the Last/Resurrection Day

Fight/kill those who do not believe and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited,

Fight/kill those who do not believe and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book
Originally Posted by Follower
Do you see now how easily verses can be mis-interpreted?

Abdallatif - went right along with it the verses, twisting it to mean that the People of the Book follow: The religion of the People of the Book isn't the complete truth, however it has some information about Allah in their scriptures which hasn't been changed by man.

aamirsaab-

I am looking for literal meanings of the verses. The site I am using is:

http://www.yaqb.org/http://www.yaqb.org/

I don't think this is a hate site.
Follower, stop being a Blind Follower.

First of all you should understand the motives for jihad in Islam, before asking about who deserves to be killed.

These motives were summed up by Rib’i ibn ‘Aamir and other companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and were stated to Rustam, the commander of the Persian army, in the battle of al-Qaadisiyyah, when he asked them one after another, for three consecutive days before the battle took place: “What is this that you have brought?” The answer came: “Allaah has sent us to bring forth whomsoever He wills from the worship of people to the worship of Allaah alone, from the hardship of this world to its ease, from the injustice of other religions to the justice of Islam. He sent His Messenger with His religion to His creation. Whoever accepts it from us, we will accept it from him and will go back; we will leave him and his land alone. Whoever refuses, we will fight him until we end up in Paradise or in victory.”

This religion has always – and continues to and always will – be faced with resistance based on deviant beliefs and false ideologies, with political, military, social, economic and racial obstacles. All these obstacles combined may produce an attitude that rejects Islam altogether and prevents people from following it.

If verbal discussions and debates, arguing in a way that is better, address deviant beliefs and ideas, then the jihad movement addresses other, material obstacles, foremost among which is the political power that is based on those combined factors. It aims its strikes at the military and political powers that enslave the people to something other than Allaah – i.e., rules them by means of something other than the laws of Allaah – and that prevent them from listening to the truth and following it with absolute freedom. Thus there is a need for both da’wah and jihad in order to face the real obstacles of life.

See Ma’aalim fi’l-Tareeq, p. 59 ff

Thus it becomes clear that the basic principle of fighting as prescribed in sharee’ah is jihad, and its purpose is that all religion should be devoted to Allaah, and that the word of Allaah should be supreme. Whoever tries to prevent that is to be fought, according to the consensus of the Muslims. With regard to those who are not involved in resistance and fighting – such as women, children, monks, old men, the blind, the chronically ill, and so on – they are not to be killed, according to the majority of scholars, unless they fight in word or deed… because we are to fight those who fight us, if we want the religion of Allaah to prevail, as Allaah says (Interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight in the way of Allaah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allaah likes not the transgressors”

[al-Baqarah 2:190]

It was proven that our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) passed by a woman who had been killed in one of his battles, and the people were standing around her, and he said: “This one was not a fighter.” And he sent a man to Khaalid ibn al-Waleed – who was a general at the head of his army – and commanded him: “Tell him not to kill any children or hired workers.” Perhaps what is meant is those who were not bearing arms. Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2669; al-Albaani said: It is hasan saheeh; Saheeh Abi Dawood, 2324.

Allaah has permitted killing to whatever extent it is needed to bring people to the right path, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and Al‑Fitnah (tumult and oppression) is worse than killing”

[al-Baqarah 2:217]

i.e., although killing involves evil and mischief, the evil and mischief caused by the fitnah of the disbelievers (the tumult and oppression that they cause) is worse than that. With regard to the person who does not try to prevent the Muslims from establishing the religion of Allaah, his disbelief harms no one but himself.

Al-Siyaasah al-Shar’iyyah by Ibn Taymiyah, 165-167.

Here there is an important point to be made: fighting, aggression and oppression are old problems that affect mankind so long as people are influenced by greed and by whims and desires, and so long as both good and evil exist among men. Ibn Khaldoon said:

“Wars and all kinds of fighting have existed from the moment Allaah created mankind. Their origin is the desire that some people have to wreak vengeance on others… This is something natural in man and no nation or era is free of this...”

Moreover, what do the Muslims have to do with the terrible wars that have taken place between various Christian groups in the past, and what befell the Protestants at the hands of the Catholics?

What do the Muslims have to do with the two World Wars, or with Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

We have the right to say, along with Count Henri de Christie: “It is more correct to say that the peaceful nature and gentleness of the Muslims is the reason why their state fell.”

Allaah the Almighty has spoke the truth:

“Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: ‘Our Lord is Allaah.’ For had it not been that Allaah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allaah is mentioned much would surely, have been pulled down. Verily, Allaah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allaah is All‑Strong, All‑Mighty”

[al-Hajj 22:40]

Think about that, then listen to the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Allaah wonders at those who will enter Paradise in chains.” (Saheeh al-Bukhaari, 3030). And he said: “[The verse] ‘You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind’ [Aal ‘Imraan 3:110] means, You are the best for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4557) – i.e., when they fight others, they may take some of them prisoner, or others may submit to their rule, then they come to know Islam and enter into the faith, even though they disliked it at first.

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/27180/
Reply

Follower
04-14-2009, 12:40 AM
A graven image is a carved or engraved image that is used as an idol.
Reply

Follower
04-14-2009, 12:43 AM
LOL! Muslims continue to cause mischief for Christians- There are not 3 gods in Christianity. Our concept of the fullnes and unity of our One True GOD is different then yours.
Reply

Zafran
04-14-2009, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
LOL! Muslims continue to cause mischief for Christians- There are not 3 gods in Christianity. Our concept of the fullnes and unity of our One True GOD is different then yours.
??????

No Follower you say God (singular) who is 3 - You worship 3 very distinct things that you believe make up 1 God. Its true this is a logical fallacy and according to Islam its shirk.

we know what you mean by trinty - and its joining partners with God which makes it a major sin in Islam.
thats why the Quran says

[4.171] People of the Book, do not exaggerate your religion. Do not say
about Allah except the truth. Indeed, the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, is
only a Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah, and His Word (Be) which He gave to
Mary, and a (created) spirit by Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers
and do not say: 'Trinity. '
Refrain, it is better for you. Allah is only One God. Exaltations to Him
that He should have son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in
the earth, it is sufficient that Allah is the Guardian.


peace
Reply

Zafran
04-14-2009, 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
A graven image is a carved or engraved image that is used as an idol.
A man is an Image - If you call him God like Jesus or give him divine attributes then thats violating the command. There are also pics drawn all over churches of Jesus - its an Image.


"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)"

Jesus pbuh also walked on land - you give him divine attributes - its violating the command openly.

peace
Reply

Follower
04-14-2009, 12:47 PM
No, they are not partners, One GOD, but different manifestations. Different ways GOD has revealed Himself to man.

Jesus is the human shell, from His time on earth. The human shell that contained GOD's WORD.

You believe that the Quran contains Allah's word. We believe that Jesus was GOD's WORD.

I am not sure why you are mis-understanding. Did you not read the definition of graven image? Christians do not bow down to any manmade idols.

LOL! Actually I believe Muslims are adding partners to Allah by saying that you must believe in Mohammad to be a Muslim/submitter to GOD. To leave Mohammad off and say you can be a submitter and believe in Just GOD that would be great.

Christians say you must believe in GOD and His living WORD. In our case the partner to GOD is His WORD.
Reply

Zafran
04-14-2009, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
No, they are not partners, One GOD, but different manifestations. Different ways GOD has revealed Himself to man.

Jesus is the human shell, from His time on earth. The human shell that contained GOD's WORD.

You believe that the Quran contains Allah's word. We believe that Jesus was GOD's WORD.

I am not sure why you are mis-understanding. Did you not read the definition of graven image? Christians do not bow down to any manmade idols.

LOL! Actually I believe Muslims are adding partners to Allah by saying that you must believe in Mohammad to be a Muslim/submitter to GOD. To leave Mohammad off and say you can be a submitter and believe in Just GOD that would be great.

Christians say you must believe in GOD and His living WORD. In our case the partner to GOD is His WORD.

first of all no human on earth has ever called Muhammad pbuh divine - Yet you call a man who walked on earth divine (Jesus) - Hes sharing or "sitting on the right hand" of God - You also have the holy Ghost. Thats giving partners to God

3 very distinct things yet still one God. You put partners with God By worshipping and saying that Jesus is God and so is the father and so is the holy Ghost! - 3 things that are very differnet but some how in christain logic 1 God - clear open joining partners with God.

Anything co equal with the one true God (like Jesus or the holy ghost) is joining partners with God.

Muslims also believe Jesus is the word of God - but so is Muhammad pbuh - no way makes them divine.

You have to believe all prophets form Adam to Muhammad pbuh - that includes Jesus and John the baptists that Jews also reject. You also have to worship God ALONE with nobody sitting on the right hand of God. Thats clearly joining partners with God.

Man is an Image of God - Jesus was man that walked on earth - you do worship him - therefore you violate the command openly. As it was given to the Jews you should ask them what it means :) .
Reply

Zafran
04-14-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Follower

Christians say you must believe in GOD and His living WORD. In our case the partner to GOD is His WORD.
Its not as easy as that

you have to believe in christainty


1- God somehow changed and became a man that violates the OT
2 - we are some how born of sin and therefore have to accept Jesus the man that sits on the right hand side of God and who is divine and who is Innocent to die for all the sinners!! - an unjust act.
3 - a triunion God that is nowhere to be seen in the OT.


By the way you also have to believe in John, mark, matthew, paul, Luke and the rest who are not even prophets.


oh and LOL!

peace
Reply

Walter
04-14-2009, 07:27 PM
Dear Zafran:

You wrote:

Its a pity non of there work survives


While some of the early church literature was destroyed, much of it, over 20,000 pages, remains. These early teachings from the time of Jesus until the time of Mohammed are included in the 30-year study “Brothers Kept Apart”, in order to understand the religious issues that the Qur’an was likely reacting to.

A review of the Jewish and Christian traditions that Mohammed would have been exposed to, confirms that the Qur’an rightly condemned the corrupt teachings in the region and the persons promoting those practices.

You also wrote:

and not just your Pauline version of it.


Please note that the letters of Paul are consistent with the Gospels. The accusations that Paul’s writings offer an alternative Gospel are unsupported by the evidence. You should be aware that there is harmony between the teachings of the Gospel, the teachings of Paul, and the principal teachings of the Qur'an.

Regarding the Gospel, the study found that the likely candidate for the Ingeel is the Diatessaron, which was a synthesis of the 4 Gospels which was popular throughout Syria from 172 AD. It was controversially removed about 100 years before Mohammed. All of the details are included in the Book which you can read at your local library.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
04-16-2009, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
LOL! Muslims continue to cause mischief for Christians- There are not 3 gods in Christianity. Our concept of the fullnes and unity of our One True GOD is different then yours.
How can three things be one? God, the Holy spirit and Jesus are three if you use common mathamatics. Or even common sense. One is a God, one is an Angel and the other is a human. Right?
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
04-16-2009, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
No, they are not partners, One GOD, but different manifestations. Different ways GOD has revealed Himself to man.

Jesus is the human shell, from His time on earth. The human shell that contained GOD's WORD.

You believe that the Quran contains Allah's word. We believe that Jesus was GOD's WORD.
Well you got one part right. Allah says:

It beseems not God that He should take to Himself a son! glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is. [19:34]



I am not sure why you are mis-understanding. Did you not read the definition of graven image? Christians do not bow down to any manmade idols.

LOL! Actually I believe Muslims are adding partners to Allah by saying that you must believe in Mohammad to be a Muslim/submitter to GOD. To leave Mohammad off and say you can be a submitter and believe in Just GOD that would be great.

Christians say you must believe in GOD and His living WORD. In our case the partner to GOD is His WORD.
We don't understand because the trinity is a mystery.

And please, grow up. Muhammad is a human being and a Prophet of god.

Follower, i'm sorry but this thread has gone way past it's point. It doesn't seem to be getting anywhere so i'm closing it.

:threadclo
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