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Tyrion
03-21-2009, 06:59 AM
:sl:

I was just wondering... how exactly does the islamic version of the story of noah and the flood go? Does islam teach that it was a global flood, or just one area of the world that flooded? How exactly does Islam say this all happened? This is just one of those stories that really frustrates me because i've heard so many versions, some of which dont make any sense to me, and some which just dont seem possible... thanks in advance for any responses.
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Güven
03-21-2009, 11:14 AM
Prophet Nuh/Noah (pbuh)
Ibn Kathir

He was Noah Ibn Lamik, Ibn Mitoshilkh, Ibn Enoch, Ibn yard, Ibn Mahlabeel, Ibn Qinan, Ibn Anoush, Ibn Seth, Ibn Adam the Father of Mankind (PBUH).

According to the history of the People of the Book, (refers to the Jews, and Christians, so called by Allah because they received Revealed Books, Taurat, Zabur and Injeel. These names are translated 'Torah, Psalms, and Gospels' respectively, but the books that are extent are corrupt. Of the Revealed Books, ONLY the Quran remains exactly as it was revealed).

the period between the birth of Noah and the death of Adam was 146 years. (According to Genesis 5 (new Revised Standard Version), Noah was born one hundred and twenty six years after the death of Adam. Ibn Abbas narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "The period between Adam and Noah was ten centuries." (Sahih Bukhari, Noah was born 1056 years after Adam's creation (or after he left the Garden of Eden). Thus, this hadith does not contradict the previous statement from the People of the Book as it may first appear to do. The reader should keep in mind, however that any statement or narratives taken from the People of the Book are not necessarily credible. This was taken from Genesis 5).

For many generations Noah's people had been worshipping statues that they called gods. They believed that these gods would bring them good, protect them from evil and provide all their needs. They gave their idols names such as Waddan, Suwa'an, Yaghutha, Ya'auga, and Nasran, (These idols represented, respectively, manly power; mutability, beauty; brute strength, swiftness, sharp sight, insight) according to the power they thought these gods possessed.

Allah the Almighty revealed: "They (idolaters) have said: "You shall not leave your gods nor shall you leave Wadd, nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth, nor Ya uq nor Nasr (names of the idols)." (CH 71:23 Quran).

Originally these were the names of good people who had lived among them. After their deaths, statues of them were erected to keep their memories alive. After sometime, however, people began to worship these statues. Later generations did not even know why they had been erected; they only knew their parents had prayed to them. That is how idol worshipping developed. Since they had no understanding of Allah the Almighty Who would punish them for their evil deeds, they became cruel and immoral.

Ibn Abbas explained: "Following upon the death of those righteous men, Satan inspired their people to erect statues in the places where they used to sit. They did this, but these statues were not worshiped until the coming generations deviated from the right way of life. Then they worshipped them as their idols."

In his version, Ibn Jarir narrated: "There were righteous people who lived in the period between Adam and Noah and who had followers who held them as models. After their death, their friends who used to emulate them said: 'If we make statues of them, it will be more pleasing to us in our worship and will remind us of them.' So they built statues of them, and , after they had died and others came after them, Iblis crept into their minds saying:'Your forefathers used to worship them, and through that worship they got rain.' So they worshipped them."

Ibn Abi Hatim related this story: "Waddan was a righteous man who was loved by his people. When he died, they withdrew to his grave in the land of Babylonia and were overwhelmed by sadness. When Iblis saw their sorrow caused by his death, he disguised himself in the form of a man saying: 'I have seen your sorrow because of this man's death; can I make a statue like him which could be put in your meeting place to make you remember him?' They said: 'Yes.'

So he made the statue like him. They put it in their meeting place in order to be reminded of him. When Iblis saw their interest in remembering him, he said: 'Can I build a statue of him in the home of each one of you so that he would be in everyone's house and you could remember him?'

They agreed. Their children learned about and saw what they were doing. They also learned about their remembrance of him instead of Allah. So the first to be worshipped instead of Allah was Waddan, the idol which they named thus."

The essence of this point is that every idol from those earlier mentioned was worshipped by a certain group of people. It was mentioned that people made picture sand as the ages passed they made these pictures into statues, so that their forms could be fully recognized; afterwards they were worshipped instead of Allah.

It was narrated that Umm Salmah and Umm Habibah told Allah's Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) about the church called "Maria" which they had seen in the land of Abyssinia. They described its beauty and the pictures therein. He said: "Those are the people who build places of worship on the grave of every dead man who was righteous and then make therein those pictures. Those are the worst of creation unto Allah." (Sahih al Bukhari).

Worshipping anything other than Allah is a tragedy that results not only in the loss of freedom; its serious effect reaches man's mind and destroys it as well. Almighty Allah created man and his mind with its purpose set on achieving knowledge the most important of which is that Allah alone is the Creator and all the rest are worshippers (slaves). Therefore, disbelief in Allah, or polytheism, results in the loss of freedom, the destruction of the mind, and the absence of a noble target in life. (By worshipping anything other than Allah, man becomes enslaved to Satan, who is himself a creature and becomes harnessed to his own baser qualities).

Into this environment Allah sent Noah with His message to his people. Noah was the only intellectual not caught in the whirlpool of man's destruction which was caused by polytheism.

Allah is His Mercy sent His messenger Noah to guide his people. Noah was an excellent speaker and a very patient man. He pointed out to his people the mysteries of life and the wonders of the universe. He pointed out how the night is regularly followed by the day and that the balance between these opposites were designed by Allah the Almighty for our good. The night gives coolness and rest while the day gives warmth and awakens activity. The sun encourages growth, keeping all plants and animals alive, while the moon and stars assist in the reckoning of time, direction and seasons. He pointed out that the ownership of the heavens and the earth belongs only to the Divine Creator.

Therefore, he explained to this people, there cannot have been more than one deity. He clarified to them how the devil had deceived them for so long and that the time had come for this deceit to stop. Noah spoke to them of Allah's glorification of man, how HE had created him and provided him with sustenance and the blessings of a mind. He told them that idol worshipping was a suffocating injustice to the mind. He warned them not to worship anyone but Allah and described the terrible punishment Allah would mete out if they continued in their evil ways.

The people listened to him in silence. His words were a shock to their stagnating minds as it is a shock to a person who is asleep under a wall which is about to fall and who is vigorously awakened. This person may be alarmed and may even become angry although the aim was to save him.

Noah's people were divided into two groups after his warning. His words touched the hearts of the weak, the poor, and the miserable and soothed their wounds with its mercy. As for the rich, the strong, the mighty and the rulers they looked upon the warning with cold distrust. They believed they would be better off if things stayed as they were. Therefore they started their war of words against Noah.

First they accused Noah of being only human like themselves. 'The chiefs of the disbeliveers among his people said: "We see you but a man like ourselves."' (Ch 11:27 Quran) He, however, had never said anything other than that. He asserted that, indeed, he was only a human being; Allah had sent a human messenger because the earth winhabited by humans. If it had been inhabited by angels Allah would have sent an angelic messenger.

The contest between the polytheists and Noah continued. the rulers had thought at first that Noah's call would soon fade on its own. When they found that his call attracted the poor, the helpless and common laborers, they started to verbally attack and taunt him: 'You are only followed by the poor, the meek and the worthless.'

Allah the Almighty told us: "Indeed We sent Noah to his people (he said): "I have come to you as a plain Warner that you worship none but Allah, surely, I fear for you the torment of a painful Day." the chiefs of the disbeliveers among his people said: "We see you but a man like ourselves, nor do we see any follow you but the meanest among us and they too followed you without thinking. And we do not see in you any merit above us in fact we think you are liars." (CH 11:25-27).

Thus the conflict between Noah and the heads of his people intensified. The disbeliveers tried to bargain: "Listen Noah, if you want us to believe in you, then dismiss your believers. They are meek and poor, while are elite and rich; no faith c an include us both." Noah listened to the heathens of his community and realized they were being obstinate. However, he was gentle in his response. He explained to his people that he could not dismiss the believers as they were not his guests but Allah's.

Noah appealed to them: "O my people! I ask of you no wealth for it, my reward is from none but Allah. I am not going to drive away those who have believed. Surely, they are going to meet their Lord, but I see that you are a people that are ignorant. O my people! Who will help me against Allah, if I drove them away? Will you not then give a thought? And I do not say to you that with me are the Treasures of Allah nor that I know the unseen, nor do I say I am an angel, and I do not say of those whom your eyes look down upon that Allah will not bestow any good on them. Allah knows what is in their inner selves (regards to Belief). In that case, I should, indeed be one of the Zalimeen (wrongdoers, oppressors etc)." (Ch 11:29-31 Quran)

Noah refuted the arguments of the disbeliveers with the noble knowledge of the prophets. It is the logic of intellect that rids itself of personal pride and interests.

The rulers were tired of Noah's arguments. Allah the Exalted related their attitude: They said: "O Noah! You have disputed with us and much have you prolonged the dispute with us, now bring upon us what you threaten us with, if you are of the truthful." He said: "Only Allah will bring it (the punishment)on you, if He will, and then you will escape not. And my advice will not profit you, even if I wish to give you counsel, if Allah's Will is to keep you astray. He is your Lord! And to Him you shall return." (Ch 11:32-34 Quran)

The battle continued; the arguments between the disbeliveers and Noah became prolonged. When all the refutations of the disbeliveers collapsed and they had no more to say, they began to be rude and insulted Allah's prophet: 'The leaders of his people said: "Verily, we see you in plain error." (Ch 7:60 Quran)

Noah responded in the manner of the prophets: "O my people! There is no error in me, but I am a Messenger from the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists)! I convey unto you the Messages of my Lord and give sincere advice to you. And I know from Allah what you know not." (CH 7:61-62 Quran)

Noah continued appealing to his people to believe in Allah hour after hour, day after day year after year. He admonished his people and called them to Allah day and night, in secret and openly. HE gave them examples, explained Allah's signs and illustrated Allah's ability in the formation of His creatures. But whenever he called them to Allah, they ran away from him. Whenever he urged them to ask Allah to forgive them, they put their fingers in their ears and became too proud to listen to the truth.

Allah the Almighty related what Noah faced: Verily, We sent Noah to his people saying: "Warn your people before there comes to them a painful torment."


He said: "O my people! Verily, I am a plain Warner to you, that you should worship Allah alone, be dutiful to Him and obey me, He (Allah) will forgive you of your sins and respite you to an appointed term. Verily, the term of Allah when it comes, cannot be delayed, if you but knew."

He said: "O my Lord! Verily, I have called my people night and day (secretly and openly to accept the doctrine of Islamic Monotheism), but all my calling added nothing but to their flight from the truth. Verily! Everytime I called unto them that You might forgive them, they thrust their fingers into their ears, covered themselves up with their garments, and persisted (in their refusal), and magnified themselves in pride. Then verily, I called to them openly (aloud); then verily, I proclaimed to them in public, and I have appealed to them in private, I said to them: 'Ask forgiveness from your Lord, Verily, He is Oft Forgiving; He will send rain to you in abundance, and give you increase in wealth and children, and bestow on you gardens and bestow on you rivers."

What is the matter with you, that you fear not Allah (His Punishment), and you hope not for reward from Allah or you believe not in His Oneness. While He has created you in different stages. (Ch 23:13-14 Quran)

See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, and has made the moon a light therein and made the sun a lamp? And Allah has brought you forth from the dust of earth. Afterwards He will return you into it (the earth), and bring you forth (again on the Day of Resurrection) Allah has made for you the earth wide spread (an expanse) that you may go about therein broad roads.

Noah said: "My Lord! They have disobeyed me, and followed one whose wealth and children give him no increase but only loss. They have plotted a mighty plot. They have said: 'you shall not leave your gods, nor shall you leave wadd, nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth, nor ya'uq nor Nasr (names of the idols). Indeed they have led many astray. O Allah! Grant no increase to the Zalimeen (polytheists, wrongdoers, and disbeliveers etc) save error."

Because of their sins they were drowned, then were made to enter the Fire and they found none to help them instead of Allah. (Ch 71:1-25 Quran).

Noah continued to call his people to believe in Allah for nine hundred fifty years. Allah the Almighty said: Indeed We sent Noah to his people and he stayed among them a thousand years less fifty years (inviting them to believe in the Oneness of Allah (Monotheism) and discard the false gods and other deities). (Ch 29:14 Quran)

It happened that every passing generation admonished the succeeding one not to believe Noah and to wage war against him. the father used to teach his child about the matter that was between himself and Noah and counsel him to reject his call when he reached adulthood. Their natural disposition rejected believing and following the truth.

Noah saw that the number of believers was not increasing, while that of the disbeliveers was. He was sad for his people, but he never reached the point of despair.

There came a day when Allah revealed to Noah that no others would believe. Allah inspired him not to grieve for them at which point Noah prayed that the disbeliveers be destroyed. He said: "My Lord! Leave not one of the disbeliveers on the earth. If you leave them, they will mislead Your slaves and they will beget none but wicked disbeliveers." (Ch 71:27 Quran)

Allah accepted Noah's prayer. The case was closed, and He passed His judgment on the disbeliveers in the form of a flood. Allah the Exalted ordered His worshipper Noah to build an ark with His knowledge and instructions and with the help of angels. Almighty Allah commanded: "And construct the ship under Our Eyes and with Our Inspiration and address Me not on behalf of those who did wrong; they are surely to be drowned." (Ch 11:37 Quran)

Noah chose a place outside the city, far from the sea. HE collected wood and tools and began to day and night to build the ark. The people's mockery continued: "O Noah! Does carpentry appeal to you more than prophethood? Why are you building an ark so far from the sea? Are you going to drag it to the water or is the wind going to carry it for you?" Noah replied: "You will come to know who will be put to shame and suffer."

Allah the Almighty narrated: As he was constructing the ship, whenever the chiefs of his people passed by him, they made a mockery of him. He said : "If you mock at us, so do we mock at you likewise for your mocking. And you will know who it is on whom will come a torment that will cover him with disgrace and on whom will fall a lasting torment." (Ch 11:38-39 Quran)

The ship was constructed, and Noah sat waiting Allah's command. Allah revealed to him that when water miraculously gushed forth from the oven at Noah's house, that would be the sign of the start of the flood, and the sign for Noah to act.

The terrible day arrived when the oven at Noah's house overflowed. Noah hurried to open the ark and summon the believers. He also took with him a pair, male and female, of every type of animal, bird and insect. Seeing him taking these creatures to the ark, the people laughed loudly: "Noah must have gone out of his head! What is he going to do with the animals?"

Almighty Allah narrated: So it was till then there came Our Command and the oven gushed forth (water like fountains from the earth). We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two (male and female), and your family, except him against whom the Word has already gone forth, and those who believe." And none believed him except a few. (Ch 11:40 Quran)

Noah's wife was not a believer with him so she did not join him; neither did one of Noah's sons, who was secretly a disbeliever but had pretended faith in front of Noah. Likewise most of the people were disbeliveers and did not go on board.

The scholars hold different opinions on the number of those who were with Noah on the ship. Ibn Abbas stated that there were 80 believers while Ka ab al Ahbar held that there were 72 believers. Others claimed that there were 10 believers with Noah.

Water rose from the cracks in the earth; there was not a crack from which water did not rise. rain poured from the sky in quantities never seen before on earth. Water continued pouring from the sky rising from the cracks; hour after hour the level rose. The seas and waves invaded the land. The interior of the earth moved in a strange way, and the ocean floors lifted suddenly, flooding the dry land. The earth, for the first time was submerged.


Allah told the story thus: He (Noah) said: "Embark therein in the Name of Allah will be its moving course and its resting anchorage. Surely, my Lord is Oft Forgiving, most Merciful." so it (the ship) sailed with them amidst the waves like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (apart), "O my son! Embark with us and be not with the disbeliveers." The son replied, "I will betake myself to a mountain, it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day there is no savior from the Decree of Allah except him on whom He has mercy." And a wave came in between them so he (the son) was among the drowned.

It was said: "O Earth! Swallow up your water, and O sky! Withhold (your rain)." The water was diminished (made to subside) and the Decree (of Allah) was fulfilled (the destruction of the people of Noah). And it (the ship) rested on Mount Judi, and it was said: "Away with the people who are Zalimeen (polytheists, and wrongdoing)!"

Noah called upon his Lord and said, "O my Lord! Verily, my son is of my family! Certainly, Your Promise is true, and You are the Most Just of the judges." HE said: "O Noah! Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge! I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants."

Noah said: "O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have Mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers."

It was said: "O Noah! Come down (from the ship) with peace from Us and blessings on you and on the people o\who are with you(and on some of their offspring), but (there will be other) people to whom We shall grant their pleasures (for a time), but in the end a painful torment will reach them from Us." (Ch 11:41-48 Quran)

With the issue of the divine command, calm returned to earth, the water retreated, and the dry land shone once again in the rays of the sun. The flood had cleansed the earth of the disbeliveers and polytheists.

Noah released the birds, and the beats which scattered over the earth. After that the believers disembarked. Noah put his forehead to the ground in prostration. The survivors kindled a fire and sat around it. Lighting a fire had been prohibited on board so as not to ignite the ship's wood and burn it up. None of them had eaten hot food during the entire period of the floor. Following the disembarkation there was a day of fasting in thanks to Allah.

The Quran draws the curtain on Noah's story. We do not know how his affairs with his people continued. All we know or can ascertain is that on his deathbed he requested his son to worship Allah alone, Noah then passed away.

Abdullah Ibn Amru Ibn Al as narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "When the death of the Messenger of Allah Noah approached, the admonished his sons: 'Indeed I would give you far reaching advice, commanding you to do 2 things, and warning you against doing 2 things as well. I charge you to believe that there is no god but Allah and that if the seven heavens and the seven earths were put on one side of a scale and the words "there is no god but Allah" were put on the other, the latter would outweigh the former. I warn you against associating partners with Allah and against pride." (Sahih al Bukhari)

Some traditions said that his grave is in the Scared Mosque in Mecca, while others said that he was buried in Baalabak, a city in Iraq.

source
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Imam
03-21-2009, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
:sl:

I was just wondering... how exactly does the islamic version of the story of noah and the flood go? Does islam teach that it was a global flood.

We don't have a clue in the Quran that it was a global flood .....all what is said is that the unbelievers in Noah's people were drowned ...

The only possible way to argue that it was a global flood ,is to provide a Quranic clue that the (people of Noah) means (all humanity living such period) and they were spread all over the Earth

[007:059] We sent Noah to his people. He said: "O my people! worship God! ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful day!

[025:037] And the people of Noah,- when they rejected the apostles, We drowned them, and We made them as a Sign for mankind...


the sign has been given to other nations living by them....... exactly as the sign of the pharaohs who were drowned in the sea...

peace
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Whatsthepoint
03-21-2009, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
The only possible way to argue that it was a global flood ,is to provide a Quranic clue that the (people of Noah) means (all humanity living such period)
But you could also argue that the entire humanity lived in a limited location, especially if Noah came shortly after Adam.

But there's this:
So We inspired him (with this message): "Construct the Ark within Our sight and under Our guidance: then when comes Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gush forth, take thou on board pairs of every species, male and female, and thy family- except those of them against whom the Word has already gone forth: And address Me not in favour of the wrong-doers; for they shall be drowned (in the Flood).

It's unlikely that only Noah's palce and its surroundings were populated with animals, so it makes sense that the flood was universal otherwise there'd be no need to take a pair of every species to the ark.
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Charzhino
03-21-2009, 03:04 PM
A global flood however is no where to be recorded and observed in the geological timescalde of the Earth, so prehaps it was only a local or nationwide flood, instead of a global one.
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Whatsthepoint
03-21-2009, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Charzhino
A global flood however is no where to be recorded and observed in the geological timescalde of the Earth, so prehaps it was only a local or nationwide flood, instead of a global one.
That or certain books aren't all that accurate..
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Imam
03-21-2009, 03:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
But you could also argue that the entire humanity lived in a limited location, especially if Noah came shortly after Adam..
greetings

If that is true, that would mean the entire humanity(Noah's people) lived in a limited location and hence logically the flood was not global

as the reason for it is to punish the transgressors, so why would the flood include uninhabited areas in our planet?!....

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-21-2009, 03:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
greetings

If that is true, that would mean the entire humanity(Noah's people) lived in a limited location and hence logically the flood was not global
I know, that's what I meant (an xample of how an islamic apologist could argue) but I added the animals verse to show evidence of the contrary.
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Imam
03-21-2009, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I added the animals verse to show evidence of the contrary.
and the animals verse doesn't suggest it to be global either ...
making such animals(we don't know what kind of such animals,as the verse doesn't say all kinds of animals in the globe ..but it is logically supposed to be such animals exist in their land) to survive in THEIR OWN LAND doesn't mean making all animals to survive in the whole globe....
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Whatsthepoint
03-21-2009, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
and the animals verse doesn't suggest it to be global either ...
making such animals(we don't know what kind of such animals,as the verse doesn't say all kinds of animals in the globe ..but it is logically supposed to be such animals exist in their land) to survive in THEIR OWN LAND doesn't mean making all animals to survive in the whole globe....
It says every animal, not every animal in your land.
The only way for this to be a local flood is that all the fauna, including humans, was concentrated in the area Noah lived.
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Zafran
03-21-2009, 07:05 PM
salaam

it says every animal - possibly every animal Noah knew in his region - Ultimatley its preety open - time will only tell how large the flood was.

peace.
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Imam
03-21-2009, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It says every animal, not every animal in your land.
you know that It literally doesn't say every animal at all ?


23:27 فاوحينا اليه ان اصنع الفلك باعيننا ووحينا فاذا جاء امرنا وفار التنور فاسلك فيها من كل زوجين اثنين واهلك الا من سبق عليه القول منهم ولاتخاطبني في الذين ظلموا انهم مغرقون

literal


[023:027] Thus, We inspired him, “Build an ark under My supervision and instructions. When our order comes water bubbling out of the oven, Carry into it of every kind a pair , and your family.


but we can from the context of the story infer the meaning to refer to animals and we can infer the meaning to be the animals living by then.......


we have already seen how the text suggests the people of Noah as a tribe and the punishment directed at those specific transgressors...so it is wisely to understand that God wasn't ordering Noah to waste his time moving around the earth collecting all pairs of animals !! but instead such animals known to him and his people..
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Tony
03-21-2009, 09:08 PM
I saw a documentary last year that showed geological and oceanic pointers to the earth having been completley flooded at some point. sorry cant remember anything other than it seemed quite beleivable
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Imam
03-21-2009, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
I saw a documentary last year that showed geological and oceanic pointers to the earth having been completley flooded at some point. sorry cant remember anything other than it seemed quite beleivable
:sl:

we are not discussing the idea of the possibility of past global flood ...

we discuss whether the quran has such idea or not

1- The flood was act of punishment of a specific group of transgressors (Noah's people)

2- If we view Noah's people as the the only mankind living on our planet such time,then the flood may only been global if they filled the whole Earth in huge number and that is impossible....

3-The idea that most of the fauna, including humans, was concentrated in the area Noah lived(such ancient time) ,is possible too...... but the other idea as I explained before goes better with the Quranic context...

:w:
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Tony
03-21-2009, 10:14 PM
Sorry+o(:-[
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Imam
03-21-2009, 10:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
Sorry+o(:-[
no problem Bro ....May God bless you
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-21-2009, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
you know that It literally doesn't say every animal at all ?


23:27 فاوحينا اليه ان اصنع الفلك باعيننا ووحينا فاذا جاء امرنا وفار التنور فاسلك فيها من كل زوجين اثنين واهلك الا من سبق عليه القول منهم ولاتخاطبني في الذين ظلموا انهم مغرقون

literal


[023:027] Thus, We inspired him, “Build an ark under My supervision and instructions. When our order comes water bubbling out of the oven, Carry into it of every kind a pair , and your family.


but we can from the context of the story infer the meaning to refer to animals and we can infer the meaning to be the animals living by then.......
Hmmm, living by then? That would require evolution, wouldn't it? Not only that, it would require evidence that several species of animals evolved once humans were the way we are today.

we have already seen how the text suggests the people of Noah as a tribe and the punishment directed at those specific transgressors...so it is wisely to understand that God wasn't ordering Noah to waste his time moving around the earth collecting all pairs of animals !! but instead such animals known to him and his people..
Ok, let's say he did only take animals he knew and the flood was local.

1. why bother taking animals at all? If the flood was local they could run away, as they have with so many natural disasters.
2. why bother saving animals if they would survive in the non-flooded parts of the world?
3. Let's say he only saved animals endemyc to the flooded area, meaning animals that lived there and nowhere else. If the flood was local, that number would be fairly small, so no point in building a gaint barge. You could argue that the flood was local, but still big, however at some point even a local flood will turn into a global flood.
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Whatsthepoint
03-21-2009, 11:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
:sl:

we are not discussing the idea of the possibility of past global flood ...

we discuss whether the quran has such idea or not

1- The flood was act of punishment of a specific group of transgressors (Noah's people)

2- If we view Noah's people as the the only mankind living on our planet such time,then the flood may only been global if they filled the whole Earth in huge number and that is impossible....

3-The idea that most of the fauna, including humans, was concentrated in the area Noah lived(such ancient time) ,is possible too...... but the other idea as I explained before goes better with the Quranic context...

:w:
1 is wrong because the Quran states the entire humanity descended from the survivals on that boat.
The only viable option is no 3 but its got serious flaws.
Reply

Imam
03-22-2009, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If the flood was local they could run away, as they have with so many natural disasters..

I didn't claim that the ship is to enable them to run away to the non-flooded parts of the world .....there is no Quranic clue for that....


format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
3. Let's say he only saved animals endemyc to the flooded area, meaning animals that lived there and nowhere else. If the flood was local, that number would be fairly small, so no point in building a gaint barge. .
Let's say he saved all kinds of animals on earth.but building a barge whatever gaint can by no mean include all kinds of animals on Earth....


format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
is wrong because the Quran states the entire humanity descended from the survivals on that boat.
I didn't find a Quranic support for that .....that is only what traditions tell..

If there is Quranic support to such idea ,then again we have the term Humanity then equals Noah's people ..... who were living in a limited location,and the transgressors of some of them been punished by a limited flood suitable to their limited location and limited number....

Again why would God flood the whole planet to drown few people in a limited location....!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
I didn't claim that the ship is to enable them to run away to the non-flooded parts of the world .....there is no Quranic clue for that....
I meant animals could escape to the non-flooded places of the world, so there'd be no need to build a giant ark but rather a small boat capable of holding Noah and his family.
coem to think of it, if the aim of the whole thing was to punish a local froup of sinners, god could have told Noah to move out of town untill things dry up..
Let's say he saved all kinds of animals on earth.but building a barge whatever gaint can by no mean include all kinds of animals on Earth....
Yes, I know, but you're committing a logical fallacy here. You're assuming the Quran is wrong and because it is impossible the Quran doesn't say it. There's also a second option, the Quran thought it was posible to carry every living speicies on that barge, which is plausible seeing how it first appeared in a desert.

I didn't find a Quranic support for that .....that is only what traditions tell..

If there is Quranic support to such idea ,then again we have the term Humanity then equals Noah's people ..... who were living in a limited location,and the transgressors of some of them been punished by a limited flood suitable to their limited location and limited number....

Again why would God flood the whole planet to drown few people in a limited location....!
The Quran deosn't says they were living in a limited loction, that's a presumtion.

And besides, the Quran says the ark landed on a mountain, you can't have a local flood covering mountains.
Reply

Chuck
03-22-2009, 06:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
1. why bother taking animals at all? If the flood was local they could run away, as they have with so many natural disasters.
could be domesticated animals. But it doesn't say animals in the literal meaning. It just says pair of.
Reply

alcurad
03-22-2009, 06:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

And besides, the Quran says the ark landed on a mountain, you can't have a local flood covering mountains.
you could if the flood occurred within a basin like area, i.e plains surrounded by mountains on most sides.
Reply

alcurad
03-22-2009, 06:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok, let's say he did only take animals he knew and the flood was local.

1. why bother taking animals at all? If the flood was local they could run away, as they have with so many natural disasters.
2. why bother saving animals if they would survive in the non-flooded parts of the world?
3. Let's say he only saved animals endemyc to the flooded area, meaning animals that lived there and nowhere else. If the flood was local, that number would be fairly small, so no point in building a gaint barge. You could argue that the flood was local, but still big, however at some point even a local flood will turn into a global flood.
no explicit reason is given for taking "two from every pair", most likely it was for food, since the flood would have affected the flora and fauna greatly.
Reply

Eric H
03-22-2009, 08:22 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Whatsthepoint;
It says every animal, not every animal in your land.
The only way for this to be a local flood is that all the fauna, including humans, was concentrated in the area Noah lived.
I try and search for meaning as opposed to detail in these stories. If God can create the universe and life from nothing, he can arrange a flood and start life again. The message seems to be that man started to worship wealth, power, whilst the poor were overlooked. I can relate to the story in the Koran simply because it relates to justice for the poor.

In the spirit of searching for One God the creator of all that is seen and unseen

Eric
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
you could if the flood occurred within a basin like area, i.e plains surrounded by mountains on most sides.
Yeah but is there such an area, big enough for god to demonstrate his powers and prevent the sinners from escaping and surrounded by mountains on all sides. And preferrably somewehere in the middle east.
Reply

Imam
03-22-2009, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The Quran deosn't says they were living in a limited loction, that's a presumtion.
.
so you rather assume that they were living in the whole Earth ?!

would you support that from the Quran?



format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
you're committing a logical fallacy here. You're assuming the Quran is wrong and because it is impossible the Quran doesn't say it,There's also a second option, the Quran thought it was possible to carry every living speicies on that barge.
I need what the Quran wrote not what the Quran thought ...
where in the Quran Noah was ordered to carry every living speicies on Earth on that barge?

moreover we don't even what kind of geography ,kinds of animals,their number and availability,and whether animal exactly as humans began living in a location then spreaded all over , in such time and area...

indeed, all what we do is mere a guessing work .....



format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
coem to think of it, if the aim of the whole thing was to punish a local froup of sinners, god could have told Noah to move out of town untill things dry up...
Did he live in a town?
and how many people lived there?
how many been carried in the ship?

accepting that would make us believe that the sinners were not a local group ... but the planet earth was filled of sinners in need of a global flood....
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 05:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
so you rather assume that they were living in the whole Earth ?!

would you support that from the Quran?





I need what the Quran wrote not what the Quran thought ...
where in the Quran Noah was ordered to carry every living speicies on Earth on that barge?

moreover we don't even what kind of geography ,kinds of animals,their number and availability,and whether animal exactly as humans began living in a location then spreaded all over , in such time and area...

indeed, all what we do is mere a guessing work .....




Did he live in a town?
and how many people lived there?
how many been carried in the ship?

accepting that would make us believe that the sinners were not a local group ... but the planet earth was filled of sinners in need of a global flood....
He didn't live in a town that was just a phrase.
You're right, it's guesswork, it's impossible to determine where humans lived at the time, what animals Noah took on his boat, why he took them etc, that's presuming the whole flood thing actually happened.
But still, it would have be extremelly impossible to make a local flood covering mountain peaks.
Reply

Imam
03-22-2009, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
He didn't live in a town that was just a phrase.
You're right, it's guesswork, it's impossible to determine where humans lived at the time, what animals Noah took on his boat, why he took them etc, that's presuming the whole flood thing actually happened.
But still, it would have be extremelly impossible to make a local flood covering mountain peaks.

All what the verse says that the ark rested upon Al-Judi .....

[011:044] And it was said, `O earth, swallow thy water, and O sky, cease raining.' And the water was made to subside and the matter was decided. And the Ark came to rest on Al-Judi.

What is that Judi? a mouantain or hills
how big? how hight? where the ark exactly rested,is it on the peak or another lower part of such Judi?

any answers to such questions would be mere conjecture...


peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
All what the verse says that the ark rested upon Al-Judi .....

[011:044] And it was said, `O earth, swallow thy water, and O sky, cease raining.' And the water was made to subside and the matter was decided. And the Ark came to rest on Al-Judi.

What is that Judi? a mouantain or hills
how big? how hight? where the ark exactly rested,is it on the peak or another lower part of such Judi?

any answers to such questions would be mere conjecture...


peace
It makes sense it rested on the peak. If the water had never reached the peak, they could have seen it long before the flood ceased and could simply sail there and anchor.
And anyway, Judi doesn't have to be a mountain to amke the whole thing impossible.
Reply

Azy
03-22-2009, 07:03 PM
Isn't the resting place of the ark supposed to be [here]...

That is the area people recognise as Mount Judi, and if so then the whole ark incident is a little.. puzzling, to put it politely.


edit: might have to zoom out a bit and change to 'terrain' view :)
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alcurad
03-22-2009, 07:14 PM
why puzzling?
Reply

Imam
03-22-2009, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Isn't the resting place of the ark supposed to be [here]...

That is the area people recognise as Mount Judi,
this place is guessed be where the ship settled
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Noah%27s_Storm


but who to be sure?!!
and who ever care if there are remains of such ark...

The search for the ark has been called a "wild goose chase" by some archaeologists....
Reply

Azy
03-22-2009, 08:55 PM
I would be inclined to agree that it is unlikely to be found. A few ancient ships are found preserved in underwater sediment where decomposition is very slow, but exposed on the side of a mountain?

What puzzles me about this and the preceding arguments is that Mount Judi is a few hundred metres above sea level on the edge of the Tigris valley, around which there is a ring of small hills. Beyond that there are plains which stretch for hundreds of miles to the sea.

If it was a local flood it would have been contained within the valley. Noah would not have ever been more than a 1 hour walk from a safe place, so why command him to spend all that time building a boat?

Does the following verse suggest a global flood?
Literal > And Noah said: "My Lord, do not leave on the earth/Planet Earth from the disbelievers a resident/inhabitant." (71:26)
Reply

Chuck
03-22-2009, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It makes sense it rested on the peak. If the water had never reached the peak, they could have seen it long before the flood ceased and could simply sail there and anchor.
And anyway, Judi doesn't have to be a mountain to amke the whole thing impossible.
Magafloods have happened in the past that have topped peaks. Here is one that was studied in the US, they have probably happened in another places too.

Despite their best efforts at logging, paving and otherwise terraforming the Columbia Gorge into a strip of McMansions, developers still have nothing to compare with the havoc wreaked by nature.

I’m talking about the floods that geologists say roared down from Montana, along the Columbia and scouring the Gorge in ancient times. The waters were said to have topped what’s now Crown Point.

NOVA, the premier public broadcasting science program, has produced a show on the "Mystery of the Megafloods." These floods helped carve out the Columbia Gorge — but this is also a story about how geologic heresy became the accepted standard.

The science is interesting stuff for those of us who make our home here.

Perhaps equally interesting is that not long ago, geologists derided the idea that massive flooding cut channels and cliffs. Geology, after all, was thought to work slowly, over unimaginable time to produce changes measured in eons.

Then, in the early Twentieth Century, along came geologist J. Harlen Bretz. He, in 1919, realized that monumental scouring marks in Northeast Washington were made by flooding and named it the “Spokane Flood.�?

The updated theory is this: That some thousands of years ago, several dozen deluges of “almost inconceivable force and dimensions swept across large parts of the Columbia River drainage.�? (This quote is from the standard text on the flooding, Cataclysms on the Columbia by John Eliot Allen and Marjorie Burns.) The floods raced out of an inland sea in what is now Montana, down the Columbia River and out to the Pacific. Floodwaters filled and gouged out the Gorge, at one point apparently topping Crown Point.

It took nearly 50 years, until the middle 1960s, for Bretz and the evidence to convince the scientific community of the ancient floods. His fellows simply could scarcely believe that a catastrophic Ice Age flood could have cut cliffs and channels from Montana to Portland. One supposes that Bretz, in his 80s, felt a sort of long-awaited vindication when ossified opinions finally turned.

A congratulatory telegram following a field trip for geologists cinched his victory. Its final sentence: “We are all catastrophists now.�?

Today, there's talk of an Ice Age Floods trail; there are floods interest groups; even an Ice Age Floods Institute.

Bretz’s flood work is the kind of research that wins one a Nobel Prize. But science, that great religion to end all religions, has its gatekeepers and its high priests, and they are not pleased with upstarts. Particularly if those upstarts blow away their pet theories.

Science, like democracy, relies on human beings. Objectivity, thoughtfulness or even the barest decency, is never guaranteed. We like to think that, in science, reason holds sway over human passions. But Bretz’s story is all too common. In fact, science creates people who are as passionate, biased and turf-defensive as any ... well, as any faith.

Ask Barry Marshall and Robin Warren, the Australian scientists who won a Nobel Prize this year for proving that ulcers are the result of a mere bacterium, rather than stress and smoking and booze. They won the prize in 2005 — 22 years after making their discovery. What took so long to win the recognition? Breaking through established, and unproved, opinion.

"It was impossible to displace the dogma," Marshall told one interviewer. "Their agenda was to shut me up and get me out of gastroenterology and into general practice in the outback."

The rejection of Marshall’s work echoes in a scientific history fraught with facts we absolutely knew to be true, that turned out false. People once believed dinosaurs were cold-blooded reptiles; now, the popular theory has them birdlike and warm-blooded. The universe was once thought static; now, expanding from a “big bang�? (a creation without a Creator, which scientists are sure, simply sure, is a figment).

http://www.newwest.net/index.php/cit...3793/C426/L426
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Magafloods have happened in the past that have topped peaks. Here is one that was studied in the US, they have probably happened in another places too.
Yeah, but here you're talking about a limited area being flooded for 6 months by hundreds of feets of water.
Reply

Imam
03-22-2009, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy

What puzzles me about this and the preceding arguments is that Mount Judi is a few hundred metres above sea level on the edge of the Tigris valley

Is the mount judi in Turkey is the Quranic one?

none should be certain of...

was the geography in such place in such ancient time exactly the same as nowadays?

who knows....
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Does the following verse suggest a global flood?
Literal > And Noah said: "My Lord, do not leave on the earth/Planet Earth from the disbelievers a resident/inhabitant." (71:26)



1-What is a disbeliever according to the Quran?
it is those who get the message and the signs and insist on disbelieve ......
in other words if there were other humans living the time of Noah and didn't get his message and never heard of his message ,they are not disbelievers and out of such prayer ..

2-The word (Alard) could mean Earth or some land or the ground (according to the context)

examples:


[007:074] "And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land(Alard): ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains


the word (alard) is used to mean (the land Ad people once lived) and not the planet Earth....



[007:085] To the Madyan people We sent Shu'aib, one of their own brethren: he said: "O my people! worship God; Ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! Give just measure and weight, nor withhold from the people the things that are their due; and do no mischief on the land (Alard) after it has been set in order: that will be best for you, if ye have Faith.

again Shu'aib adviced them not to mischief on their land ( not the whole Earth)

[005:026] God said: "Therefore will the land (Alard)be out of their reach for forty years: In distraction will they wander through the land: But sorrow thou not over these rebellious people.

the word again refers to a part of Sinai..



[007:100] Is it not an indication to those who inherit the land (Alard)after its people (who thus reaped the consequence of evil-doing) that, if We will, We can smite them for their sins and print upon their hearts so that they hear not ?

those who inherit the land after its people and not the planet Earth

[007:127] Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land(Alard), and to abandon thee and thy gods?"


mischief in the land(Egypt) and not the whole planet

[008:026] Call to mind when ye were a small (band), despised through the land(Alard), and afraid that men might despoil and kidnap you; But He provided a safe asylum for you, strengthened you with His aid.

despised through specific land not the whole Earth

etc............................................... ...............


there are other dozens refers to the same issue...... but I think that is ok.....
Reply

Chuck
03-22-2009, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yeah, but here you're talking about a limited area being flooded for 6 months by hundreds of feets of water.
where 6 months is written in the Quran?
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Azy
03-22-2009, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
Is the mount judi in Turkey is the Quranic one?

none should be certain of...
Does it even make a difference?

Where in the world could a local flood happen that would make walking to safety a less suitable option than single-handedly building a ship that, according to Baidawi, was as large as a WWII aircraft carrier?
(or any ship at all)

format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
1-What is a disbeliever according to the Quran?
it is those who get the message and the signs and insist on disbelieve ......
2-The word (Alard) could mean Earth or some land or the ground (according to the context)
Agreed. :)
Reply

alcurad
03-23-2009, 01:30 AM
the flood didn't take that long probably to occur, remember it was punishment.
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Imam
03-23-2009, 08:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy

Where in the world could a local flood happen that would make walking to safety a less suitable option than single-handedly building a ship that,
If we don't know the geography then ,hard to know why....

anyway we could argue ,too ,that God wanted such believers to stay the time of the flood in the location in order to witness with their eyes all the details of the punishment ...like that the event will stay in their memories ....
Reply

Azy
03-23-2009, 01:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
If we don't know the geography then ,hard to know why....
As I said, the geography of the specific area isn't relevant. In the decades it would require to build a ship like that you could walk around the earth a few times.
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
anyway we could argue ,too ,that God wanted such believers to stay the time of the flood in the location in order to witness with their eyes all the details of the punishment ...like that the event will stay in their memories ....
You could argue that, and they could have seen it from the mountainside.

When the whole town of Sodom was punished, Prophet Lut was told to simply walk away from the town before it was destroyed.
Reply

Imam
03-23-2009, 01:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
You could argue that, and they could have seen it from the mountainside..
which mountainside?

you see... we have a lack of the picture ...all what we do is guessing...


format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
When the whole town of Sodom was punished, Prophet Lut was told to simply walk away from the town before it was destroyed.
and prophet Noah was told to stay protected by the ship in the area while watching the punishment ...

believe me when I tell you...I thought about all that before ...and balanced both the idea of global flood and the idea of local flood......

The basic weakness in the idea of global flood I mentioned before ,the Quran talks about the people of Noah the way exactly it talks about other groups who lived in limited areas .....common sense will not only tells us they have to be living in a limited location but also even if they were the only humans living then ,the flood has,as a way of punishment, to be local.....


If this question to be answered in a satisfactory way ,I would accept that the Quran teaches a global flood


peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
All what the verse says that the ark rested upon Al-Judi .....

[011:044] And it was said, `O earth, swallow thy water, and O sky, cease raining.' And the water was made to subside and the matter was decided. And the Ark came to rest on Al-Judi.

What is that Judi? a mouantain or hills
how big? how hight? where the ark exactly rested,is it on the peak or another lower part of such Judi?

any answers to such questions would be mere conjecture...


peace
Here's another indication that water rose as high as a mountain:

The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of God, any but those on whom He hath mercy! "And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood. 11:43 YA
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Imam
03-23-2009, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Here's another indication that water rose as high as a mountain:

The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of God, any but those on whom He hath mercy! "And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood. 11:43 YA


How high the son reached while climbing the mountain ,when the waves came between him and his father?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
How high the son reached while climbing the mountain ,when the waves came between him and his father?
Ha!:D
Though Noah's reply to his son's idea is "this day nothing can save" which probably means ain't no mountain high enough, because he said it prior to his son being drowned.
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Imam
03-23-2009, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ha!:D
Though Noah's reply to his son's idea is "this day nothing can save" which probably means ain't no mountain high enough.
Did Noah think that really the flood will cover the peak of the mountains?
I don't think so.....

all that he said:
My son ,even if you resort to a mountain , the command of God is to drown all those not to join the ship....

logically they weren't living on the top of the mountains in order for the flood to reach that high......

the flood is described in the quran as huge but never been described as higher than the highest mountain (as in the Bible)....
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
Did Noah think that really the flood will cover the peak of the mountains?
I don't think so.....

all that he said:
My son ,even if you resort to a mountain , the command of God is to drown all those not to join the ship....

logically they weren't living on the top of the mountains in order for the flood to reach that high......

the flood is described in the quran as huge but never been described as higher than the highest mountain (as in the Bible)....
Ok thats the other way of interpreting it.
You could also nitpick the local flood in the bible though, like for instance, the terrain in Noah's time might have been different, with significantly shorter mountains.
Anyway, apparently it's impossible to determine whether the flood describd in the Quran is global or local, but I'll give you that your book definitely contains less indications of the global flood than the bible.
Reply

Imam
03-23-2009, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok thats the other way of interpreting it.
You could also nitpick the local flood in the bible though, like for instance, the terrain in Noah's time might have been different, with significantly shorter mountains.
Anyway, apparently it's impossible to determine whether the flood describd in the Quran is global or local, but I'll give you that your book definitely contains less indications of the global flood than the bible.
I know that ..... lots argued for the possibility of a global flood and provided proofs, some argued of a world this time of one continent ........ I just find difficulty of believing in a global one hitting the planet to punish a group of people..... or may be there were other reasons besides, only in God's mind?
lots of question and we have only to speculate....


....and I agree with you the Bible have stong indications of the global flood ...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Imam
I know that ..... lots argued for the possibility of a global flood and provided proofs, some argued of a world this time of one continent ........ I just find difficulty of believing in a global one hitting the planet to punish a group of people..... or may be there were other reasons besides, only in God's mind?
lots of question and we have only to speculate....


....and I agree with you the Bible have stong indications of the global flood ...
A global flood would be quite impossible, there just simply isn't enough water.
Reply

Imam
03-23-2009, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A global flood would be quite impossible, there just simply isn't enough water.
Those who argue for global flood would simply answer that water came from two sources: below the earth and above the earth.
Reply

Chuck
03-23-2009, 08:10 PM
Following documentary gives an idea how big mega-floods can get. Amazing documentary on a mega-floods:
p1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V56on...eature=related
p2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmoxF...eature=related
p3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSaO8...eature=related
p4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRo4E...eature=related
p5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DurPn...eature=related
p6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijeNx...eature=related

Another potential cause: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DacIP...eature=related
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
03-26-2009, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A global flood would be quite impossible, there just simply isn't enough water.
There's enough water, you'd just have to change the topography of the Earth for everything to be covered.

To "briefly" summarize the Story of Prophet Nuh written by Ibn Kathir (and based on the Qur'an and ahadith):

People were saddened by the deaths of a few pious people, so Satan inspired the people to erect statues to remember them. Generations later, the people had no idea what the statues were for, so Satan inspired them to worship these statues as gods, believing that they would bring them good, protect them from evil and provide them with all their needs. The idea basically spread from there. They forgot about God, and subsequently became ignorant, cruel and immoral.

So, God sent Noah as a messenger to his people, calling them to worship only God, and guide them to the truth. Most of his people rejected him. Aside from his family, he was only followed by the poor, weak, helpless, etc. among his people, while everyone else rejected him, and he was opposed by the rich and powerful elite, with taunts and threats. He argued with them, and kept calling his people for centuries. Every passing generation told the succeeding one not to believe Noah and to wage war against him.

When his followers were no longer increasing, he became disheartened with his people, but didn't despair. God then revealed to him that no others would believe and not to grieve for them. So Noah prayed to God to destroy the disbelievers, not leaving a single one on Earth, saying that they would mislead the believers and only beget more disbelievers. God accepted Noah's prayer, and told him to build a ship with his knowledge and instructions. He began construction on the ark, away from the sea. Those who rejected him, mocked him over it. When he finished the ark, God revealed to him that when water miraculously gushed forth from the oven at Noah's house, that would be the sign of the start of the flood.

The sign came, and he, his family (except for 1 of his sons) and followers embarked on the ark with 2 (male and female) of every kind, for which his people laughed at him for. Water rose from the cracks in the earth; there was not a crack from which water did not rise. Rain poured from the sky in quantities never seen before on earth. Water continued pouring from the sky and rising from the cracks; hour after hour the level rose. The interior of the earth moved in a strange way, and the ocean floors lifted suddenly, and the seas and waves invaded the land.

When the decree was fulfilled against the disbelievers, God commanded the earth and the sky to withhold its water. The water diminished, and the ark rested on Mt. Judi, at which point, everyone disembarked.


We see a suggested change of the topography, with the ocean floors lifting suddenly. With such a tectonic phenomenon, a lot of ocean water would be displaced onto the land.

The average depth of the ocean is approximately 2 miles, with the depth of the trenches being approximately 5 miles.

Currently, water already covers 70% of the Earth at the average depth of 2 miles. Hypothetically, if the ocean floor lifted up to sea level, then all that ocean water would be displaced above it, and you'd have 2-mile high walls of water, crashing down onto the shores. The water would disperse itself over the remaining 30% of the Earth, lowering the water's average height above it by 25%, making it 1.5 miles (approximately 8,000 ft.) over the rest of the Earth.

So, while there isn't enough water on Earth or in the atmosphere to flood the entire world at its current topography, if the topography were changed, there would be.
Reply

Eric H
03-26-2009, 07:52 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Whatsthepoint;
A global flood would be quite impossible, there just simply isn't enough water.
If we doubt that God has the power to make a flood happen, we then doubt his ability to create the universe and life from nothing.

If God wanted a flood, minor details like volumes of water would just be.

Faith and trust in God demands that we recognise his power.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric
Reply

Eric H
03-26-2009, 11:07 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Whatsthepoint;
Here's another indication that water rose as high as a mountain:
Does God have the power to arrange a big flood on a small planet, in some insignificant solar system, in some minor galaxy tucked away in the universe?

It seems God would need a microscope to make such a minor adjustment.

It could almost be like me sitting on the beach wondering how I could cause a catastrophic flood to happen on a single grain of sand. Which part of the ocean should I take my single drop of flood water from?

The greater question surely is not to ask about the geographical extent of the flood, but rather why did God set the flood in motion?

In the spirit of searching for a big God; whilst living on a microscopic planet?

Eric
Reply

Robalo
03-27-2009, 04:54 PM
From post #2

the period between the birth of Noah and the death of Adam was 146 years. (According to Genesis 5 (new Revised Standard Version), Noah was born one hundred and twenty six years after the death of Adam
Hello..

I was just reading this and there is something wrong with the time frame of Adam and Noah.

The Revised Standard Version Bible was written in the 1900's-20th century and although it's been modified, it has been placed under scrutiny in the Christian world.

But.... back to the topic of the tread..... The time span from Adam to Noah is not 126 or 146 years. It's over 1200 - 1400 years between the two. Even if you read the RSV it will state the years from Adam to sons and sons and sons (ect).... until you reach Noah.

I'm wondering if the author of the article presented in post #2 forgot to place a 0 -zero- in the report.. It seems that way. :rollseyes

Robalo
Reply

huxxar
05-21-2009, 06:30 PM
Brothers and sisters, no matter what religion or race you are. Hearken please.

First, please understand that God is the creator and master of this multiverse. That's right, there's many universes beyond this one with different laws of physics. I am a physicist and I have some idea of what I am talking about.
Please read the Torah, Bible, Koran or any books on astrophysics on how they describe the SIZE of creation.

Have you ever built a house? If you have, then you probably have some idea how hard it is. How about an aeroplane? Now that would probably be beyond most people. How about a planet? Or a star system? Most people can't even imagine how big a star system is. Try this: If you can drive from here to the sun, it will take you about 110 YEARS if do 160km per hour (100 miles per hour) NON-STOP. Now that's far. But the sun is VERY VERY VERY SMALL you see, when compared to a galaxy. And we think that there are billions of galaxies in this universe alone. Did I mentioned that there are other universes?

Well, I hope you get the idea.

A lot of people think they know and understand God, while at the same time some people don't think he even existed.

Well let me tell you this. If there is indeed a GOD, then you DON'T KNOW him. That's because you DON'T HAVE THE MEANS to perceive him!!! Can you see Alpha Centauri? Thats a star only about 4.5 light years away. Can you see the electron? It's only about 2 trillion times smaller than a golf ball. You can't right? These are just his creations and already we are having a hard time to comprehend them.

Actually, there is no adequate human words to describe the power of god. He can CREATE AND DESTROY THE SPACE-TIME CONTINUUM ITSELF!!!
Compared to the power required to do that, bringing the entire dead people and animals that has EVER LIVED ON THIS PLANET is NOTHING!!!

Or for that matter, flooding the entire earth and saving Noah alone.

Do you know how big Noah's Ark was? Please do some research. Because if we use our intelligence we can work it out. It was big enough to house a pair of every species of land animals on the planet.
Reply

جوري
05-21-2009, 06:40 PM
^^^^ nice post I appreciate it, however according to suret al'moemnoon (23) in the Quran.. Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind) I don't know how heavily populated the earth was then.. but the verses are clear on the matter:

Pickthal 23:23] And We verily sent Noah unto his folk, and he said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other Allah save Him. Will ye not ward off (evil)?
[Pickthal 23:24] But the chieftains of his folk, who disbelieved, said: This is only a mortal like you who would make himself superior to you. Had Allah willed, He surely could have sent down angels. We heard not of this in the case of our fathers of old.
[Pickthal 23:25] He is only a man in whom is a madness, so watch him for a while.
[Pickthal 23:26] He said: My Lord! Help me because they deny me.
[Pickthal 23:27] Then We inspired in him, saying: Make the ship under Our eyes and Our inspiration. Then, when Our command cometh and the oven gusheth water, introduce therein of every (kind) two spouses, and thy household save him thereof against whom the Word hath already gone forth. And plead not with Me on behalf of those who have done wrong. Lo! they will be drowned.
[Pickthal 23:28] And when thou art on board the ship, thou and whoso is with thee, then say: Praise be to Allah Who hath saved us from the wrongdoing folk!
[Pickthal 23:29] And say: My Lord! Cause me to land at a blessed landing-place, for Thou art Best of all who bring to land.
[Pickthal 23:30] Lo! herein verily are portents, for lo! We are ever putting (mankind) to the test.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-21-2009, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind)
Did someone say that Noah was sent to all of mankind?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
05-21-2009, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Did someone say that Noah was sent to all of mankind?
The bible says the entire humanity was killed in the flood.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-21-2009, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The bible says the entire humanity was killed in the flood.
Which doesn't answer my question.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
05-21-2009, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Which doesn't answer my question.
It doesn't matter to whom Noah was sent, the bible states the flood was global, the reason why Muslims mention this difference is because it may suggest the Quranic flood was local.
Reply

جوري
05-21-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Did someone say that Noah was sent to all of mankind?
format_quote Originally Posted by huxxar
It was big enough to house a pair of every species of land animals on the planet.
if you'll notice that I commended the previous poster on his post, please re-read it to refresh your memory, and I have taken the liberty to quote his last statement (see above)

I don't believe every specie on the planet was on Noah's arc, I believe he took what was local to his area and his people!

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-21-2009, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It doesn't matter to whom Noah was sent, the bible states the flood was global, the reason why Muslims mention this difference is because it may suggest the Quranic flood was local.
You still aren't addressing my question. Did someone actually say that Noah was sent to all mankind? For that matter, did someone say that Noah was sent to anyone at all?
Reply

جوري
05-21-2009, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It doesn't matter to whom Noah was sent, the bible states the flood was global, the reason why Muslims mention this difference is because it may suggest the Quranic flood was local.

indeed, but I have quoted him the previous to whom I made such arrows(^^) to indicate to whom my reply was directed. I certainly can't conceive that anyone would think he was actually able to house every specie on the entire planet but what was endemic to his region!

all the best
Reply

جوري
05-21-2009, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You still aren't addressing my question.

see my reply to the matter if you will!

all the best
Reply

Whatsthepoint
05-21-2009, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
indeed, but I have quoted him the previous to whom I made such arrows(^^) to indicate to whom my reply was directed. I certainly can't conceive that anyone would think he was actually able to house every specie on the entire planet but what was endemic to his region!

all the best
Perhaps you are right.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-21-2009, 08:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
see my reply to the matter if you will!

all the best
I have, and as all the post you referenced said on the matter was
format_quote Originally Posted by huxxar
Or for that matter, flooding the entire earth and saving Noah alone.

Do you know how big Noah's Ark was? Please do some research. Because if we use our intelligence we can work it out. It was big enough to house a pair of every species of land animals on the planet.
It seems the answer to my query is NO. No one said that Noah was sent to all mankind.
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
05-21-2009, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
^^^^ nice post I appreciate it, however according to suret al'moemnoon (23) in the Quran.. Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind) I don't know how heavily populated the earth was then.. but the verses are clear on the matter:

Pickthal 23:23] And We verily sent Noah unto his folk, and he said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other Allah save Him. Will ye not ward off (evil)?
[Pickthal 23:24] But the chieftains of his folk, who disbelieved, said: This is only a mortal like you who would make himself superior to you. Had Allah willed, He surely could have sent down angels. We heard not of this in the case of our fathers of old.
[Pickthal 23:25] He is only a man in whom is a madness, so watch him for a while.
[Pickthal 23:26] He said: My Lord! Help me because they deny me.
[Pickthal 23:27] Then We inspired in him, saying: Make the ship under Our eyes and Our inspiration. Then, when Our command cometh and the oven gusheth water, introduce therein of every (kind) two spouses, and thy household save him thereof against whom the Word hath already gone forth. And plead not with Me on behalf of those who have done wrong. Lo! they will be drowned.
[Pickthal 23:28] And when thou art on board the ship, thou and whoso is with thee, then say: Praise be to Allah Who hath saved us from the wrongdoing folk!
[Pickthal 23:29] And say: My Lord! Cause me to land at a blessed landing-place, for Thou art Best of all who bring to land.
[Pickthal 23:30] Lo! herein verily are portents, for lo! We are ever putting (mankind) to the test.
How do you know his people weren't all of mankind at the time?
Reply

Zafran
05-22-2009, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
How do you know his people weren't all of mankind at the time?
Salaam

Because prophet Muhammad pbuh is the only prophet for the whole of mankind and the "unto his folk" is specifc like the stories of Aad and Thamud.

Ofcourse you can hold the opnion he was sent for the whole of mankind but does that seem likely?

peace
Reply

جوري
05-22-2009, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I have, and as all the post you referenced said on the matter was It seems the answer to my query is NO. No one said that Noah was sent to all mankind.
forgive me 'housing every specie on the planet' very much eludes to all of man-kind, or was he sent for every specie and a few select villagers? if he was do you have biblical evidence of that?

all the best
Reply

جوري
05-22-2009, 12:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
How do you know his people weren't all of mankind at the time?
How do you know that they were? I can only work with what the Quran gave me as a clarification of the event... and the Quran states he was sent 'illa qwamihi' very straightforward as the translator illustrates.. 'To his folk'.. were his folk all of 'man-kind'?.. that remains to be proven!

:w:
Reply

ragdollcat1982
05-22-2009, 01:29 AM
many ancient cultures around the world talk about a catostrophic flood in thier history. I do believe that a global flood occured as I am a literal Genesis creationist and the fact that we find sealife fossils in mountains suggest that a flood could have been possible.
Reply

جوري
05-22-2009, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
many ancient cultures around the world talk about a catostrophic flood in thier history. I do believe that a global flood occured as I am a literal Genesis creationist and the fact that we find sealife fossils in mountains suggest that a flood could have been possible.
Greetings,

I certainly hope that Grace Seeker accepts your view, as it does seem the consensus amongst Christians..

peace
Reply

ragdollcat1982
05-22-2009, 01:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Greetings,

I certainly hope that Grace Seeker accepts your view, as it does seem the consensus amongst Christians..

peace
Actually I am in a minority. Most Christians I know are straying away from the Bible and think that us evolving from monkeys is acceptable.
Reply

north_malaysian
05-22-2009, 02:15 AM
Legends of the Flood

by Eric Lyons, M.Min. and Kyle Butt, M.A.



Anthropologists who study legends and folktales from different geographical locations and cultures consistently have reported one particular group of legends that is common to practically every civilization. Legends have surfaced in hundreds of cultures throughout the world that tell of a huge, catastrophic flood that destroyed most of mankind, and that was survived by only a few individuals and animals. Although most historians who have studied this matter estimate that these legends number into the 200s, according to evolutionary geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood myths, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” (2003, p. 249, emp. added). Schoch went on to observe:
Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups (pp. 103,249).
Over a century ago, the famous Canadian geologist, Sir William Dawson, wrote about how the record of the Flood
is preserved in some of the oldest historical documents of several distinct races of men, and is indirectly corroborated by the whole tenor of the early history of most of the civilized races (1895, pp. 4ff.).
Legends have been reported from nations such as China, Babylon, Mexico, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Persia, India, Norway, Wales, Ireland, Indonesia, Romania, etc.—composing a list that could go on for many pages (see Perloff, 1999, p. 167). Although the vast number of such legends is surprising, the similarity between much of their content is equally amazing. James Perloff noted:
In 95 percent of the more than two hundred flood legends, the flood was worldwide; in 88 percent, a certain family was favored; in 70 percent, survival was by means of a boat; in 67 percent, animals were also saved; in 66 percent, the flood was due to the wickedness of man; in 66 percent, the survivors had been forewarned; in 57 percent, they ended up on a mountain; in 35 percent, birds were sent out from the boat; and in 9 percent, exactly eight people were spared (p. 168).
AMERICAN INDIAN LEGENDS

The Aztecs tell of a worldwide global flood in a story with striking parallels to the biblical deluge. “Only two people, the hero Coxcox and his wife, survived the flood by floating in a boat that came to rest on a mountain” (Schoch, p. 103). Then, soon after the flood, giants constructed a great pyramid in an endeavor to reach the clouds. Such ambition is said to have angered the gods, who scattered the giants with fire sent from the heavens (cf. Genesis 11:1-9).
In the ancient land we now refer to as Mexico, one tribe of Indians, known as the Toltecs, told of a great flood. In their legend, a deluge destroyed the “first world” 1,716 years after it was created. Only a few people escaped this worldwide flood, and did so in a “toptlipetlocali” (a word that means “closed chest”). After these few people exited the closed chest, they wandered about the Earth, and found a place where they built a “zacuali” (a high tower) in case another flood came upon the Earth. At the time of the “zacuali,” the Toltecs’ languages were confused and they separated to different parts of the Earth.
Another ancient tribe of Mexico told the story of a man named Tezpi who escaped the deluge in a boat that was filled with animals. Similar to Noah, who sent out a raven (a scavenger bird) that never returned, and a dove that came back with an olive leaf, “Tezpi released a vulture, which stayed away, gorging on cadavers. Then he let a hummingbird go, and it returned to him bearing a twig” (Schoch, p. 104).
ANCIENT GREEK MYTHOLOGY

According to the Greek legend of the deluge, humans became very wicked. Zeus, the leader of the many gods in Greek mythology, wanted to destroy humans by a flood, and then raise up another group. However, before he could do this, a man by the name of Deucalion, and his wife Pyrrha, were warned of the impending disaster. This fortunate couple was placed in a large wooden chest by one of the immortals named Prometheus. For nine days and nights, the floodwaters covered almost all of the Earth. Only a few mountain peaks remained. The wooden chest came to rest on the peak of Mount Parnassus. Later, after leaving the wooden chest, Deucalion sacrificed to Zeus.
CHINESE AND ASIAN LEGENDS

In the land of China, there are many legends about a great flood. One of those comes from a group of people known as the Nosu. According to their legend, God sent a personal messenger to Earth to warn three sons that a flood was coming. Only the youngest son, Dum, heeded the messenger. He constructed a wooden boat to prepare for the coming flood. When the waters arrived, Dum entered his boat, and was saved. After the waters began to recede, the boat landed on the mountains of Tibet, where Dum had three sons who repopulated the Earth. Interestingly, even the Chinese character for “boat” possibly reveals the story of Noah and the other seven people on the ark. The three elements used to symbolize a boat are:



The Iban people of Sarawak tell of a hero named Trow, who floated around in an ark with his wife and numerous domestic animals (Schoch, p. 252). Natives from India tell a story about a man named Manu who built an ark after being warned of a flood. Later, the waters receded, and he landed on a mountain (Schoch, p. 250).
ANCIENT BABYLONIAN MYTHOLOGY

Possibly the most famous flood account (aside from the biblical record of Noah and the Flood) comes from the ancient Babylonian empire. The Gilgamesh Epic, written on twelve clay tablets that date back to the seventh century B.C., tells of a hero named Gilgamesh. In his search for eternal life, Gilgamesh sought out Utnapishtim, a person who was granted eternal life because he saved a boatload of animals and humans during a great flood. On the eleventh tablet of this epic, a flood account is recorded that parallels the Genesis account in many areas. According to the story, the gods instructed Utnapishtim to build a boat because a terrible flood was coming. Utnapishtim built the boat, covered it with pitch, and put animals of all kinds on it, as well as certain provisions. After Utnapishtim entered the boat with his family, it rained for six days and nights. When the flood ended, the boat rested on Mount Niser. After seven days, Utnapishtim sent out a dove to see if the waters had receded. The dove came back, so he sent a swallow, which also returned. Finally, he sent out a raven—which never returned. Utnapishtim and his family finally exited the boat and sacrificed to their gods (see Roth, 1988, pp. 303-304).
What is the significance of the various flood legends? The answer seems obvious: (a) we have well over 200 flood legends that tell of a great flood (and possibly more than 500—Schoch, p. 249); (b) many of the legends come from different ages and civilizations that could not possibly have copied any of the similar legends; (c) the legends were recorded long before any missionaries arrived to relate to them the Genesis account of Noah; and (d) almost all civilizations have some sort of flood legend. The conclusion to be drawn from such facts is that in the distant past, there was a colossal flood that forever affected the history of all civilizations.
Those living soon after the Flood did not have the book of Genesis to read to their descendants. (Genesis was not written until several hundred years after the Flood.) The account of the Flood was passed from one generation to the next. Many parents and grandparents told their children and grandchildren about the huge ark, the wonderful animals, and the devastating Flood, long before the Genesis record ever existed. Over the years, the details of the story were altered, but many of the actual details remained the same. Alfred Rehwinkel wrote:
Traditions similar to this record are found among nearly all the nations and tribes of the human race. And this is as one would expect it to be. If that awful world catastrophe, as described in the Bible, actually happened, the existence of the Flood traditions among the widely separated and primitive people is just what is to be expected. It is only natural that the memory of such an event was rehearsed in the ears of the children of the survivors again and again, and possibly made the basis of some religious observances (1951, pp. 127-128).
Harold W. Clark, in his volume, Fossils, Flood and Fire, commented:
Preserved in the myths and legends of almost every people on the face of the globe is the memory of the great catastrophe. While myths may not have any scientific value, yet they are significant in indicating the fact that an impression was left in the minds of the races of mankind that could not be erased (1968, p. 45).
After the “trappings” are stripped away from the kernel of truth in the various stories, there is almost complete agreement among practically all flood accounts: (a) a universal destruction by water of the human race and all other living things occurred; (b) an ark, or boat, was provided as the means of escape for some; and (c) a seed of mankind was provided to perpetuate humanity. As Furman Kearley once observed: “These traditions agree in too many vital points not to have originated from the same factual event” (1979, p. 11). In volume three of his multi-volume set, The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology, H.H. Bancroft wrote: “There never was a myth without a meaning; ...there is not one of these stories, no matter how silly or absurd, which was not founded on fact” (1883).
Among the noted scholars of days gone by who have studied these matters in detail are such men as James G. Frazer (Folklore in the Old Testament) and William Wundt (Elements of Folk Psychology). Wundt, who did his utmost to find some kind of reasonable case for independent origins of the various flood sagas (and who had no great love for the biblical evidence), was forced to admit:
Of the combination of all these elements into a whole (the destruction of the earth by water, the rescue of a single man and seed of animals by means of a boat, etc.), however, we may say without hesitation, it could not have arisen twice independently (1916, p. 392, parenthetical comment in orig.).
Or, as Dawson concluded more than a century ago:
[W]e know now that the Deluge of Noah is not mere myth or fancy of primitive man or solely a doctrine of the Hebrew Scriptures. ...[N]o historical event, ancient or modern, can be more firmly established as matter of fact than this (1895, pp. 4ff.).
REFERENCES

Bancroft, H.H. (1883), Works: The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology (San Francisco, CA: A.L. Bancroft).
Clark, Harold W. (1968), Fossils, Flood and Fire (Escondido, CA: Outdoor Pictures).
Dawson, John William (1895), The Historical Deluge in Relation to Scientific Discovery (Chicago, IL: Revell).
Kearley, F. Furman (1979), “The Significance of the Genesis Flood,” Sound Doctrine, March/April.
Perloff, James (1999), Tornado in a Junkyard: The Relentless Myth of Darwinism (Arlington, MA: Refuge Books).
Rehwinkel, Alfred M. (1951), The Flood (St. Louis, MO: Concordia).
Roth, Ariel (1988), Origins: Linking Science and Scripture (Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing).
Schoch, Robert M. (2003), Voyages of the Pyramid Builders (New York: Jeremy P. Parcher/Putnam). Wundt, William (1916), Elements of Folk Psychology, trans. Edward L. Schaub (New York: Macmillan).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/print/40
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-22-2009, 05:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
forgive me 'housing every specie on the planet' very much eludes to all of man-kind, or was he sent for every specie and a few select villagers? if he was do you have biblical evidence of that?

all the best
He wasn't sent to anyone or anything at all.

The whole of the story is in Genesis 6-8, but I have editted down to the pertinant parts for our present discussion.

Genesis 6

God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress wood....18 I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you.... 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.


Genesis 7

6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.

16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
Notice, according to the Biblical account Noah is has no message for anyone. He is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk". (A little bit of math with the geneologies of Genesis shows that Noah even leaves his own grandfather Methuselah to die in the flood -or at least he died the same year as the flood.) But no where in the story is Noah sent to all of mankind. Mankind (except for Noah and his family) is to perish in the flood -- that was God's whole intent.

As far as filling the ark with species, Noah's family is representative of human kind. The other species that are to fill the ark are representatives of all the of the birds and land animals. (The Bible suggests that they are of every creature and does stretch one's imagination as to how, but that question isn't germane to the issue of to whom Noah was sent. Noah doesn't go and get either any people nor any animals. The people are specified to be his family and God causes the animals come to him. So, it is not true to say that the Bible presents Noah as being sent to anyone or anything at all.

Nor do I read in the post where any Christian present that the Bible says that Noah was sent to anyone. But that idea was presented in this thread that Christians believe that Noah was sent to all of mankind:
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
^^^^ nice post I appreciate it, however according to suret al'moemnoon (23) in the Quran.. Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind)
Again, no Christian actually said that, nor does the Bible teach it. So, why would someone imply that anyone or the Bible had that position?
Reply

جوري
05-22-2009, 05:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
He wasn't sent to anyone or anything at all.
The whole of the story is in Genesis 6-8, but I have editted down to the pertinant parts for our present discussion.
so from this above 'I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them'
I should conclude that 'all people, and the earth is filled' not to mean all the people of the earth?


Notice, according to the Biblical account Noah is has no message for anyone. He is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk". (A little bit of math with the geneologies of Genesis shows that Noah even leaves his own grandfather Methuselah to die in the flood -or at least he died the same year as the flood.) But no where in the story is Noah sent to all of mankind. Mankind (except for Noah and his family) is to perish in the flood -- that was God's whole intent.
I guess I'll go for your exegesis over what you yourself quoted of earth and all the people plus of course the Jewish interpretation for which you can rummage through RAV's old posts ..
As far as filling the ark with species, Noah's family is representative of human kind. The other species that are to fill the ark are representatives of all the of the birds and land animals. (The Bible suggests that they are of every creature and does stretch one's imagination as to how, but that question isn't germane to the issue of to whom Noah was sent. Noah doesn't go and get either any people nor any animals. The people are specified to be his family and God causes the animals come to him. So, it is not true to say that the Bible presents Noah as being sent to anyone or anything at all.
a big arc which took him years upon yrs to build just for his family?
Nor do I read in the post where any Christian present that the Bible says that Noah was sent to anyone. But that idea was presented in this thread that Christians believe that Noah was sent to all of mankind:

Again, no Christian actually said that, nor does the Bible teach it. So, why would someone imply that anyone or the Bible had that position?
I guess they read the book and came to a different understanding than yours judging from two posters thus far?.. either heretics or illogical as I notice them to be your favorite words :D

all the best
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Grace Seeker
05-22-2009, 05:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I guess they read the book and came to a different understanding than yours judging from two posters thus far?.. either heretics or illogical as I notice them to be your favorite words :D

all the best
Who? Show me one person who suggests that Noah was sent to the whole earth.

Where? Show me in the Biblical text where it says that Noah was sent to deliver a message to any person beyond his family.
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جوري
05-22-2009, 05:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Who? Show me one person who suggests that Noah was sent to the whole earth.

Where? Show me in the Biblical text where it says that Noah was sent to deliver a message to any person beyond his family.
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
many ancient cultures around the world talk about a catostrophic flood in thier history. I do believe that a global flood occured as I am a literal Genesis creationist and the fact that we find sealife fossils in mountains suggest that a flood could have been possible.
and that was just on page 5 gene, I think you need some sleep, as do I..

have a great evening
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Grace Seeker
05-22-2009, 06:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
and that was just on page 5 gene, I think you need some sleep, as do I..

have a great evening
I asked you to show me where someone said that Noah was sent.

ragdollcat1982 says that there was a worldwide flood (no one is contesting that is in the Bible), but I don't see where he or the Bible says that Noah was sent to anyone. Those are different issues. Did you not imply that Christians hold that Noah was sent to all human kind? The only thing I am questioning is your substantiation for that position.
Reply

جوري
05-22-2009, 04:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I asked you to show me where someone said that Noah was sent.

ragdollcat1982 says that there was a worldwide flood (no one is contesting that is in the Bible), but I don't see where he or the Bible says that Noah was sent to anyone. Those are different issues. Did you not imply that Christians hold that Noah was sent to all human kind? The only thing I am questioning is your substantiation for that position.

Have you lost it completely?
a world wide flood, (no contesting it in the bible per you) an arc that took him centuries to build and he was sent only to his 'family' as you allege? How long do you wish to maintain this folly and for what purpose? That is not worthy of a biblical mention and God would be sort of vindictive if he sent a 'world wide' flood just to warn his family.. now how about this, why don't you show me from the bible where it states he was sent only to 'his family'.. frankly your logic is nonexistent and almost on every thread and yet you allege that is what ails others.. projection anyone?

all the best
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muslimapoclyptc
05-23-2009, 03:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
How do you know that they were? I can only work with what the Quran gave me as a clarification of the event... and the Quran states he was sent 'illa qwamihi' very straightforward as the translator illustrates.. 'To his folk'.. were his folk all of 'man-kind'?.. that remains to be proven!

:w:
What about what is said in the ahadith about the flood?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Notice, according to the Biblical account Noah is has no message for anyone. He is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk". (A little bit of math with the geneologies of Genesis shows that Noah even leaves his own grandfather Methuselah to die in the flood -or at least he died the same year as the flood.) But no where in the story is Noah sent to all of mankind. Mankind (except for Noah and his family) is to perish in the flood -- that was God's whole intent.

As far as filling the ark with species, Noah's family is representative of human kind. The other species that are to fill the ark are representatives of all the of the birds and land animals. (The Bible suggests that they are of every creature and does stretch one's imagination as to how, but that question isn't germane to the issue of to whom Noah was sent. Noah doesn't go and get either any people nor any animals. The people are specified to be his family and God causes the animals come to him. So, it is not true to say that the Bible presents Noah as being sent to anyone or anything at all.
Perhaps the reason it isn't mentioned in the Bible, is because that part of the story was "lost" or "forgotten", like other stories that aren't in the Bible, such as the stories of Prophets Hud and Salih.

Also, the ayats recounting the story of Prophet Nuh (Qur'an 11:25-48) make it quite clear that he was sent to guide his people. That all happened before God decided to drown them in a flood, so it's easy to see how it could fit into the Biblical narrative.
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جوري
05-23-2009, 03:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
What about what is said in the ahadith about the flood?
I haven't read any ahadith about the flood so I can't comment!

:w:
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Malaikah
05-23-2009, 07:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The Quran deosn't says they were living in a limited loction, that's a presumtion.

And besides, the Quran says the ark landed on a mountain, you can't have a local flood covering mountains.
They landed on a mountain? Doesn't that just counter the argument that the whole earth was covered in water?
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Grace Seeker
05-24-2009, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
What about what is said in the ahadith about the flood?



Perhaps the reason it isn't mentioned in the Bible, is because that part of the story was "lost" or "forgotten", like other stories that aren't in the Bible, such as the stories of Prophets Hud and Salih.

Also, the ayats recounting the story of Prophet Nuh (Qur'an 11:25-48) make it quite clear that he was sent to guide his people. That all happened before God decided to drown them in a flood, so it's easy to see how it could fit into the Biblical narrative.
Could be. I'm just saying that when one says that Christians say that Noah was sent to all of mankind, that such statements have no foundation in the Bibe and I've never seen any Christian here make the statement either. For while Christians understand that the Bible presents Noah as building the arc, are reports that the flood was world wide, there is no discussion at all about Noah being sent to warn anyone or being sent any place for any other purpose either.

I'm sure there is a lot of detail that isn't recorded, part of that detail might be that Noah did do the things that are suggested, but the Bible itself is silent on that fact one way or the other.
Reply

Follower
05-24-2009, 01:41 PM
I wonder how the theory of Pangaea and the time of a global flood ties together.
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
05-25-2009, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I haven't read any ahadith about the flood so I can't comment!

:w:
I haven't either. Although, based on the story itself, I'm inclined to think that the flood was global.

If the flood were local or regional, Prophet Nuh and his followers could've simply migrated to another location, leaving his people to their fate.

The fact that Prophet Nuh needed to construct an ark and house it with different animals implies that there was no land to go to that would be safe from the flood, hence the flood would've been global.

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
I wonder how the theory of Pangaea and the time of a global flood ties together.
They're probably unrelated. As the Qur'an says, the water came from the Earth's interior, and that's where it returned. Pangaea broke up 200 million years ago, giving way to the formation of the Earth's oceanic crust and thus the Earth's oceans. Thus, Pangaea would probably predate any global deluge.
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Follower
05-25-2009, 01:44 PM
Do we have truly accurrate dates on when either event happened?

Did any of you see the special on TV about finding the one commmon ancestor of all of us through DNA study? I was only able to catch bits of it and wonder what their conslusion was.
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muslimapoclyptc
05-25-2009, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Do we have truly accurrate dates on when either event happened?
We probably don't have accurate dates for when the flood happened. However, we know Pangaea broke up 200 million years ago, based on the fact that none of the ocean floor predates 200 million years.

Did any of you see the special on TV about finding the one commmon ancestor of all of us through DNA study? I was only able to catch bits of it and wonder what their conslusion was.
I don't remember if I saw that or not, but it doesn't surprise me.
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جوري
05-25-2009, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
I haven't either. Although, based on the story itself, I'm inclined to think that the flood was global.

If the flood were local or regional, Prophet Nuh and his followers could've simply migrated to another location, leaving his people to their fate.

The fact that Prophet Nuh needed to construct an ark and house it with different animals implies that there was no land to go to that would be safe from the flood, hence the flood would've been global.
1- I believe what the Quran teaches on the matter and not my own whims.. we have no idea how many of them there were?

Obama is president to his people, but his people are a good 300,000 million?

there is no room for innovation as far as the Quran is concerned! That is actually what ails the bible.. every new scribe or scholar thinks his brain compasses all, writes out of whims and the end looks nothing like what God intended.

I'd be very wary following my own whims, as that is what lands folks unto hell 're-writing' the word of God or re-intrpeting based on desire.. read sura 18 from the Quran, especially the last few verses as to why!

all the best

:w:
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muslimapoclyptc
05-26-2009, 03:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
1- I believe what the Quran teaches on the matter and not my own whims.. we have no idea how many of them there were?

Obama is president to his people, but his people are a good 300,000 million?

there is no room for innovation as far as the Quran is concerned! That is actually what ails the bible.. every new scribe or scholar thinks his brain compasses all, writes out of whims and the end looks nothing like what God intended.

I'd be very wary following my own whims, as that is what lands folks unto hell 're-writing' the word of God or re-intrpeting based on desire.. read sura 18 from the Quran, especially the last few verses as to why!

all the best

:w:
I don't see any whimsical desire nor innovation in what I said. What I was basically saying, was that the Qur'an implies a global flood.

The ahadith also imply it when they basically say that all of mankind descends from Prophet Nuh's 3 sons.

People are only motivated to argue for a local or regional flood, because a global flood is seen as being too inconceivable to be rationalized.
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جوري
05-26-2009, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
I don't see any whimsical desire nor innovation in what I said. What I was basically saying, was that the Qur'an implies a global flood.

The ahadith also imply it when they basically say that all of mankind descends from Prophet Nuh's 3 sons.

People are only motivated to argue for a local or regional flood, because a global flood is seen as being too inconceivable to be rationalized.

I didn't say anything about a flood, I said he was sent to 'his people' as per Quran.. nothing more nothing less on the subject..

:w:
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Grace Seeker
05-26-2009, 06:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
They landed on a mountain? Doesn't that just counter the argument that the whole earth was covered in water?
How would it?
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جوري
05-26-2009, 06:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
How would it?

I guess from the biblical description she assumed like the rest of us that something like this occurred



after all the 'whole earth is flooded' and yet Noah was only sent just to his family.. it is curious indeed

peace
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glo
05-26-2009, 06:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
They landed on a mountain? Doesn't that just counter the argument that the whole earth was covered in water?
Imagine the whole earth was covered in water and you floated above all land in a boat.
If the water started to disappear, would the mountains not protrude through the remaining water first and therefore be the first areas of dry soil/rock to land on?

Peace :)
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Grace Seeker
05-26-2009, 06:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
after all the 'whole earth is flooded' and yet Noah was only sent just to his family.. it is curious indeed
What would be so curious about that? Of course the Bible doesn't say anything about Noah being sent to anyone with a message one way or the other. Just as the hadiths don't say anything about the size of the flood. But it certainly could be just as you describe. The only things that Noah is specifically told to do are:
(1) build an arc (and he was also told how to build it)
(2) let the animals representing all of the birds and land animals come to him
(3) take food for all of these animals on the arc
(4) get his family on it

Supposedly, on the arc, were "male and female of all flesh" (Genesis 7:16). These were kept safe on the arc, while outside the arc:
Genesis 7

18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
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جوري
05-26-2009, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
What would be so curious about that? Of course the Bible doesn't say anything about Noah being sent to anyone one way or the other. Just as the hadiths don't say anything about the size of the flood. But it certainly could be just as you describe. The only things that Noah is specifically told to do are:
(1) build an arc (and he was also told how to build it)
(2) let the animals representing all of the birds and land animals come to him
(3) take food for all of these animals on the arc
(4) get his family on it

Supposedly, on the arc, were "male and female of all flesh" (Genesis 7:16). These were kept safe on the arc, while outside the arc:

curious that God would **** the earth for no apparent good reason and without warning as per you...
that is to say I subscribe to your view of things which I don't... as it doesn't agree with:

'GENESIS: THE FLOODChapter 6: 5 And Yahweh saw that man's wickedness was great over the face of the earth, and that all day the thoughts in his heart formed nothing but wickedness.
6 And Yahweh regretted having made man on the face of the earth, and his heart grieved.
7 And Yahweh said, "I will wipe man from the face of the earth, man, my own creation and also the animals of the field, and the creatures that crawl on the ground, and the birds of the air; for I regret having made them."

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/HEBREWS/GENFLOOD.HTM

amazingly not only does god **** the earth but he also feels regret..
do you think while we are on the subject god regretted forsaking himself? also I like the thoughts in his heart and wickedness all very godlike traits..

yeah curious indeed...

all the best
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Grace Seeker
05-26-2009, 08:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
curious that God would **** the earth for no apparent good reason and without warning as per you...
I don't say that God had no good reason. As a matter of fact he had a very good reason -- people's wickednees. So, God resolved to blot out all of humanity except for Noah who found favor with God, and Noah's family was saved along with him. But as for the rest of humanity, there is no clue in the Bible that they received (or for that matter deserved) a warning.
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جوري
05-26-2009, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't say that God had no good reason. As a matter of fact he had a very good reason -- people's wickednees. So, God resolved to blot out all of humanity except for Noah who found favor with God, and Noah's family was saved along with him. But as for the rest of humanity, there is no clue in the Bible that they received (or for that matter deserved) a warning.

ah.. enjoyed how you switched your story there..Noah was sent to his family because there was wickedness 'upon the world' .. and alas you admit God was out to 'blot all of humanity' but giving only fair warning to Noah's family.. all whilst feeling pangs of pain and regret and remorse in his heart? Brilliant..

all the best
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Follower
05-27-2009, 01:11 PM
Graceseeker - Are you saying that you believe that GOD can feel sorrow that He has to wipe out almost all of humanity because of their sin?

Using the King Saul story, God is sorry that He had to choose Saul:
1 Samuel 15
11It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

But he would make him King again because he was the best choice. GOD does not really need to feel repentant:
1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

If it came to it again GOD would cause the flood, the desicion was a good one.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-28-2009, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
ah.. enjoyed how you switched your story there..Noah was sent to his family because there was wickedness 'upon the world' .. and alas you admit God was out to 'blot all of humanity' but giving only fair warning to Noah's family.. all whilst feeling pangs of pain and regret and remorse in his heart? Brilliant..

all the best
I've not once switched my story. Based upon some of your previous posts, I highly doubt that you have taken the time to read my posts carefully enough to be able to accurately reflect what I have actually said. I've said all along that the Bible never says that Noah was sent to anyone. (Without taking one of my comments out of context, can you point to where I have said otherwise?) That's exactly why I have be disagreeing with your presentation of what the Bible says, because you are saying something for it that it doesn't actually say.
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Grace Seeker
05-28-2009, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Graceseeker - Are you saying that you believe that GOD can feel sorrow that He has to wipe out almost all of humanity because of their sin?

Using the King Saul story, God is sorry that He had to choose Saul:
1 Samuel 15
11It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

But he would make him King again because he was the best choice. GOD does not really need to feel repentant:
1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

If it came to it again GOD would cause the flood, the desicion was a good one.

My opinion as to what happened is really irrelevant for the present discussion. I'm just trying to be sure that the Bible is represented as saying what it actually says, and not what others project it as having said.

If it came to it again, what God himself says regarding the flood is:
Genesis 9

8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: [b]Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.[/b["

12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."

17 So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."
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جوري
05-28-2009, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I've not once switched my story. Based upon some of your previous posts, I highly doubt that you have taken the time to read my posts carefully enough to be able to accurately reflect what I have actually said. I've said all along that the Bible never says that Noah was sent to anyone. (Without taking one of my comments out of context, can you point to where I have said otherwise?) That's exactly why I have be disagreeing with your presentation of what the Bible says, because you are saying something for it that it doesn't actually say.

here is what you said on the previous page:


format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Notice, according to the Biblical account Noah is has no message for anyone. He is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk". (A little bit of math with the geneologies of Genesis shows that Noah even leaves his own grandfather Methuselah to die in the flood -or at least he died the same year as the flood.) But no where in the story is Noah sent to all of mankind. Mankind (except for Noah and his family) is to perish in the flood -- that was God's whole intent.
.
How about this, define for us the purpose of Noah as per your bible based on the following verses:

'GENESIS: THE FLOOD Chapter 6: 5 And Yahweh saw that man's wickedness was great over the face of the earth, and that all day the thoughts in his heart formed nothing but wickedness.
6 And Yahweh regretted having made man on the face of the earth, and his heart grieved.
7 And Yahweh said, "I will wipe man from the face of the earth, man, my own creation and also the animals of the field, and the creatures that crawl on the ground, and the birds of the air; for I regret having made them."

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/HEBREWS/GENFLOOD.HTM


what was the purpose of Noah.. and why would God **** the entire earth without giving a fair warning if he (Noah) was only sent to his family?!

Sometimes I wonder what you sell your congregation that they lap up and how you answer questions as they come about, as you either twist your religion to hide the absurdities therein or are not very forth coming about your beliefs.. and expect folks to extract your desired meaning as questions arise!

all the best
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Grace Seeker
05-28-2009, 07:11 PM
The purpose of Noah is the same as that of any of the rest of humanity, to live a righteous life honoring God.

As to why God would not warn the rest of the world, I don't know. But there is no record that he did. Likewise, there is no record that he did not. There is no record either way, so we can't say what God did or didn't do in that regard. Therefore I don't think we should say either way. God certainly doesn't have to answer to humanity for choosing to do so or not do so. Do you not have a saying in Islam: "Allah knows best."?
Reply

Follower
05-28-2009, 07:25 PM
Oh, my post should have been directed to Gossamer. Where in the world you get this Gossamer?!-all whilst feeling pangs of pain and regret and remorse in his heart? Brilliant..
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جوري
05-28-2009, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The purpose of Noah is the same as that of any of the rest of humanity, to live a righteous life honoring God.
Then why is he mentioned in the bible? lots of people live righteous lives, why him?
As to why God would not warn the rest of the world, I don't know. But there is no record that he did. Likewise, there is no record that he did not. There is no record either way, so we can't say what God did or didn't do in that regard. Therefore I don't think we should say either way. God certainly doesn't have to answer to humanity for choosing to do so or not do so. Do you not have a saying in Islam: "Allah knows best."?
Well if you shouldn't say either way, then why did you say he was sent only to his family to warn them about a global flood?
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Follower
05-29-2009, 12:00 PM
Gossamer- there is no need to attack me personally in private. You are the one that said- "all whilst feeling pangs of pain and regret and remorse in his heart? Brilliant"

I had understood it to mean that in fact Graceseeker had said it and thus my question to you is-

Do you or Muslims believe that GOD can feel sorrow that He has to wipe out almost all of humanity because of their sin, by flooding the earth?

Do you/muslims understand that if all of humanity was sinning horribly that GOD would cause the flood again, because the desicion was a good one?

Using the King Saul story, GOD is sorry that He had to choose Saul:
1 Samuel 15
11It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

But GOD would make him King again because he was the best choice. GOD does not really need to feel repentant:
1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Reply

Follower
05-29-2009, 12:14 PM
What were the spiritual conditions before the flood that gave GOD a reason to cause the flood?

Genesis 6
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.

Genesis 6
18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you.

The pool to choose from was limited and Noah was GOD's best choice-
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation
Reply

جوري
05-29-2009, 12:24 PM
you must know by now that I read nothing by your person, I find you extremely ignorant, but at best a minor nuisance at best.. once you learn to read everything that is written and discern it can you come back and reply.. there is no point in your posting the same nonsense over and over rest assured if you have posted it on one page and it had no meaning or relevance that it will still hold no meaning or relevance on the subsequent pages.. what are your expectations when you quote me a biblical verse about God's ineffectuality and hypocrisy as per your book.?


all the best
Reply

Follower
05-29-2009, 12:30 PM
Gossamer you also said - amazingly not only does god **** the earth but he also feels regret..
do you think while we are on the subject god regretted forsaking himself? also I like the thoughts in his heart and wickedness all very godlike traits..


Using the King Saul story, GOD is sorry that He had to choose Saul[ GOD is sorry that He has to flood the earth]:
1 Samuel 15
11It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

But GOD would make him King again because he was the best choice[destroying the people of the earth was the best choice that GOD had because of how depraved it had become]. GOD does not really need to feel repentant:
1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Reply

Follower
05-29-2009, 12:39 PM
Why would GOD want to destroy something that He had created? Something that He believed to be very good?

Do Muslims believe that GOD has emotions- or that He never feels regret, so that He only has some emotions? Which emotions does GOD have?

Genesis 1
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

Genesis 6
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
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Follower
05-29-2009, 12:41 PM
I should correct what I said -GOD is sorry that He has to flood the earth

GOD is sorry that He made man!!
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Zafran
05-29-2009, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
I should correct what I said -GOD is sorry that He has to flood the earth

GOD is sorry that He made man!!

salaam

so you believe the creation of humans is a mistake????:rollseyes

Just to add you contradcit the bible with this

-GOD is sorry that He has to flood the earth
Because God is beyond human emotion or anything like the world

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Maybe you need to read your bible and ask the Jews a bit more about there book

anthropomorphism is getting you in a mess - heres a tip when you talk about GOD dont anthropomorphise GOD because God is beyond and greater then anything in this world
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Grace Seeker
05-29-2009, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

so you believe the creation of humans is a mistake????:rollseyes

Just to add you contradcit the bible with this



Because God is beyond human emotion or anything like the world

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Maybe you need to read your bible and ask the Jews a bit more about there book

anthropomorphism is getting you in a mess - heres a tip when you talk about GOD dont anthropomorphise GOD because God is beyond and greater then anything in this world
I understood Follower to be trying to correct his previous statement. It is not that God is sorry he had to flood the earth but the Bible does speak of God, at this point in human history, regretting that he had made man. And, the reason God regrets having done so is because of the degree of wickedness that had come to consume humankind.

In answer to Skye's question, as I read this section of Genesis this wickedness is all pervasive, so that indeed Noah alone is singled out as being righteous.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-29-2009, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Well if you shouldn't say either way, then why did you say he was sent only to his family to warn them about a global flood?
Again, I believe a more careful reading of what I said will show that I did not say that Noah was sent to warn his family about a global flood. What I said was:
He [Noah] is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk".
I can see how you might have equated this second sentence with "warning" his family, but that is not what I was saying. Noah's responsibility is not to warn them, but to get them on the ark:
I [God] will establish my covenant with you [Noah], and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. (Genesis 6:18)
It is probable Noah warned his family, but warning them was not what his responsibilty was, getting them on the ark was the task God gave him. Should he warn them and they not get on the ark Noah would have failed in the job God gave him. And should he get them on the ark by some means other than warning them, he would have succeeded in the task God gave him.

So, I say again, the only people that Noah was responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives, and that responsibility was specifically to get them on the ark. God does not declare what means Noah was to use, but since he was being saved for being a righteous man, I am willing to assume that Noah used righteous means.
Reply

Zafran
05-29-2009, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I understood Follower to be trying to correct his previous statement. It is not that God is sorry he had to flood the earth but the Bible does speak of God, at this point in human history, regretting that he had made man. And, the reason God regrets having done so is because of the degree of wickedness that had come to consume humankind.

In answer to Skye's question, as I read this section of Genesis this wickedness is all pervasive, so that indeed Noah alone is singled out as being righteous.
again what about

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


How can God regret anything??? does that not contradcit the above.
Reply

جوري
05-29-2009, 06:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Again, I believe a more careful reading of what I said will show that I did not say that Noah was sent to warn his family about a global flood. What I said was: I can see how you might have equated this second sentence with "warning" his family, but that is not what I was saying. Noah's responsibility is not to warn them, but to get them on the ark: It is probable Noah warned his family, but warning them was not what his responsibilty was, getting them on the ark was the task God gave him. Should he warn them and they not get on the ark Noah would have failed in the job God gave him. And should he get them on the ark by some means other than warning them, he would have succeeded in the task God gave him.

this was what you originally said then later modified when it was about to blow in your face:

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker


Notice, according to the Biblical account Noah is has no message for anyone. He is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk". (A little bit of math with the geneologies of Genesis shows that Noah even leaves his own grandfather Methuselah to die in the flood -or at least he died the same year as the flood.) But no where in the story is Noah sent to all of mankind. Mankind (except for Noah and his family) is to perish in the flood -- that was God's whole intent.
So, I say again, the only people that Noah was responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives, and that responsibility was specifically to get them on the ark. God does not declare what means Noah was to use, but since he was being saved for being a righteous man, I am willing to assume that Noah used righteous means.
inconsequential on two levels
1- God doesn't do a global damage without giving fair warning to all involved, else where is the justice?
2- Noah being sent only to his family, see original quote is ridiculous on multiple levels

a- not worthy of an honorable mention in multiple revelations
b- can't send a global flood for a man out to save just one family and a few animals, he who created this bunch can create another bunch, the moral should be a caveat for those left behind to take heed not a fairy tale with multiple holes.
c- can't unleash a global flood only because god is 'regretting' a few ingrates in Mesopotamia .. regret and mass destruction seem to be more in concert with the nature of the created rather than the creator whom the scribes can't assume to think for; and pass out on ledger of folly to continue for generations..

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-29-2009, 08:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
again what about

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


How can God regret anything??? does that not contradcit the above.


The key to your question would be in getting behind the term that has been translated "grieved" in this verse:
Genesis 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

and the term that has been translated "change his mind" in the passage you quoted:
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

And even though I am not versed in Hebrew, I can use the reference tools well enough to discover that they are two different terms in Hebrews: `atsab aw-tsab' and nacham naw-kham', respectively. The words are not synonyms for one another, so each verse stands on its own without saying contradictory things.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-29-2009, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
this was what you originally said then later modified when it was about to blow in your face:
I said what I said. It is there for everyone to read. I believe my posts have been entirely consistent with one another and also with simply setting forth what the Bible actually says throughout this thread. If you see it differently that is your option, but it is an erroneous conclusion seeded in your hatred of all things Christian. Not even the posts you quote to make your point are antithetical to each other.


inconsequential on two levels
1- God doesn't do a global damage without giving fair warning to all involved, else where is the justice?
Says you.

2- Noah being sent only to his family, see original quote is ridiculous on multiple levels
Again, says you. But you are not the authority on what God can or cannot do. God is.

Further I all of this is because you made this statement:
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
^^^^ nice post I appreciate it, however according to suret al'moemnoon (23) in the Quran.. Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind) I don't know how heavily populated the earth was then.. but the verses are clear on the matter:
The parenthetical statement "Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind)" implies that you are responding to the suggestion that Noah was sent to all of mankind. I challenged you then and, since it went unaswered, I challenge you now:
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Did someone say that Noah was sent to all of mankind?
I saw no post prior to yours suggesting that Noah had been sent to all of mankind. Nor do I see anything in the Bible to suggest that Noah was sent to all of mankind. So, where do you come from in making such a statement out of the blue? You post in response to something that no one has even said. And you have the audacity to call my post inconsequential. :giggling:
Reply

Rabi'ya
05-29-2009, 09:13 PM
Assalamualaikum

I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but in the 17th,18th and 19th Centuries the British used the story of Noah as an excuse for the disgusting slave trade!!!!

According to the Bible the story goes further with regards to Nuh(as) I dont even want to say as it is not nice. Anyway I checked it out with a scholar(Dr Khalid Khan) who advised there is no such thing in Islam, alhamdulillah. I felt good that what I had felt all along was supported by Islam.

I was in complete disbelief when my history lecturer conducted a seminar on this topic!
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-29-2009, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
Assalamualaikum

I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but in the 17th,18th and 19th Centuries the British used the story of Noah as an excuse for the disgusting slave trade!!!!

According to the Bible the story goes further with regards to Nuh(as) I dont even want to say as it is not nice. Anyway I checked it out with a scholar(Dr Khalid Khan) who advised there is no such thing in Islam, alhamdulillah. I felt good that what I had felt all along was supported by Islam.

I was in complete disbelief when my history lecturer conducted a seminar on this topic!
Yeah, you are right. It is both a sad tale with regard to Noah and his family after the flood and an even sadder bit of history which your properly report and which, IMO, the interpreters of the 17th-19th centuries improperly concluded. Of course, we must remember there were also many in the Church (John Wesley, William Wilberforce, Granville, Sharp, Charles G. Finney) who stood squarely against the slave trade. But men loved money more than what was right and (again IMO) they would pervert and twist the scriptures to accomplish their own ends.

The saddest of all, I still see this same thing happening today, just on other issues.
Reply

جوري
05-29-2009, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I said what I said. It is there for everyone to read. I believe my posts have been entirely consistent with one another and also with simply setting forth what the Bible actually says throughout this thread. If you see it differently that is your option, but it is an erroneous conclusion seeded in your hatred of all things Christian. Not even the posts you quote to make your point are antithetical to each other.
You are right indeed, it is there for all to see, especially so after quoting you!

Says you.
I gather you can't reconcile that with the nature of the self-immolating all loving man-god?

Again, says you. But you are not the authority on what God can or cannot do. God is.
Actually, it is but mere hypocrisy on your part, you allege the self-immolating god is all about love and peace, it makes for a nice narnia tale but what about the reality of things? how does your sermons on the loving god reconcile with the god who ****ed all giving no warning and sending one righteous man to save only his family?
Further I all of this is because you made this statement:The parenthetical statement "Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind)" implies that you are responding to the suggestion that Noah was sent to all of mankind. I challenged you then and, since it went unaswered, I challenge you now:I saw no post prior to yours suggesting that Noah had been sent to all of mankind. Nor do I see anything in the Bible to suggest that Noah was sent to all of mankind. So, where do you come from in making such a statement out of the blue? You post in response to something that no one has even said. And you have the audacity to call my post inconsequential. :giggling:
Not at all, I think if god is ****ing the world with a global flood notice that is your religious stand with your aggrieved god over the evil of mankind, that he'd do the godly thing and send fair warning to all.. in the Quran I have quoted several times that he was sent 'to his people' doesn't make the flood global, nor does it make Noah a man with no message, he in fact had a message and those who ignored it including his own son got punished..
and of course your posts are inconsequential and very loopy at best!


good luck with all of that

peace
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-30-2009, 12:46 AM
I suppose many of my posts are inconsequential. But, Skye, are there no consequences to your integrity as an honest critiquer of other faiths when you once again fail to be able to back up your allusion to your inference that someone said Noah was sent to all mankind? Why do you imply that someone had said it when in fact it never was suggested by anyone but you?
Reply

جوري
05-30-2009, 01:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I suppose many of my posts are inconsequential. But, Skye, are there no consequences to your integrity as an honest critiquer of other faiths when you once again fail to be able to back up your allusion to your inference that someone said Noah was sent to all mankind? Why do you imply that someone had said it when in fact it never was suggested by anyone but you?
Don't you think it makes it worst by your account to unleash a global flood and send just one 'righteous man' to his 'family'?

I think you keep missing the point with every post that I have lost interest in this thread all together..instead of simply admitting the oddness of the whole event you'd rather the circuitous route where you fail to pay attention to what yourself have written!

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-30-2009, 02:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Don't you think it makes it worst by your account to unleash a global flood and send just one 'righteous man' to his 'family'?
Now you ask me for my opinion? That is a completely different thing than before, and something I have intentionally not shared so as to avoid interpretation clouding the issue.

The point that you keep missing (or I believe avoiding, for I don't think you to be so obtuse) is that you made a statement implying something to be so that simply wasn't and isn't true. When you show me that you can back up the implication you made in your own statement, "Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind)," that someone had introduced this subject matter of Noah being sent to all of mankind prior to you mentioning it, then and only then will I share what my opinion is. Until then, please, let's stick to what was actually said without the extraneous interpretations of people who don't even believe what was written in the first place.
Reply

جوري
05-30-2009, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now you ask me for my opinion? That is a completely different thing than before, and something I have intentionally not shared so as to avoid interpretation clouding the issue.

The point that you keep missing (or I believe avoiding, for I don't think you to be so obtuse) is that you made a statement implying something to be so that simply wasn't and isn't true. When you show me that you can back up the implication you made in your own statement, "Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind)," that someone had introduced this subject matter of Noah being sent to all of mankind prior to you mentioning it, then and only then will I share what my opinion is. Until then, please, let's stick to what was actually said without the extraneous interpretations of people who don't even believe what was written in the first place.

I have no interest in your opinion-- I have interest in how you reconcile what you said with what is written as per bible.. if the point is lost to you then just read the past 4984388698 posts on the matter.. It hasn't been watered down by your obstinate need for clangorous humbug..is it that you are simply unwilling to address points brought up or unable to?
I don't want to protract this for another 50 pages.. if you can't or don't want to just simply say so and don't waste your time or anyone else's....

all the best

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-31-2009, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have no interest in your opinion--
Really? That's not evident from your prior posts:
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Don't you think ...
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have interest in how you reconcile what you said with what is written as per bible..
What I have said is easy to reconcile with what is written in the Bible:
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The only things that Noah is specifically told to do are:
(1) build an arc (and he was also told how to build it)
(2) let the animals representing all of the birds and land animals come to him
(3) take food for all of these animals on the arc
(4) get his family on it

Supposedly, on the arc, were "male and female of all flesh" (Genesis 7:16). These were kept safe on the arc, while outside the arc:
These things are each mentioned in the Bible. To say more than this, to say that the Bible has Noah sent to all of mankind, is what is hard to reconcile for nowhere is that actually mentioned in the text, it is something you have inferred from it. Whether your inference is correct or not is not discernable from the text itself but is based on your OPINION that the godly thing to do is send a warning:
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I think if god is ****ing the world with a global flood notice that is your religious stand with your aggrieved god over the evil of mankind, that he'd do the godly thing and send fair warning to all.
However a sovereign God is not constrained to act in accordance with your opinion. No where in this or any other text do we see that God must send such a warning. Further, since scripture tells us:
Romans 1

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
We have this testimony that no one is without excuse, that we all have God's revelation of what is righteous and what is wicked. God does not need to warn us that he is going to punish our wickedness. He is fully within his rights as creator and sovereign Lord of the universe to simply stamp out wickedness whenver and wherever he sees it occurring. And that appears to be exactly what the Bible records that God did in the case of the people of the earth in Noah's day.
Reply

جوري
05-31-2009, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Really? That's not evident from your prior posts:
Given your inability to remember what you yourself have written, thus leading me to quote you again and again, I'd say you are very ill-equipped at deciphering basic dialogue.. except of course I know you do it on purpose as it is the defense of a man with no ammo!

You have stretched this too thin and there isn't much left to say or embellish.. indeed, you can't reconcile the nature of your god with his doings and that is the bottom line of the thousand word essay..

thank you..

all the best
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Grace Seeker
05-31-2009, 06:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Given your inability to remember what you yourself have written, thus leading me to quote you again and again, .... indeed, you can't reconcile the nature of your god with his doings and that is the bottom line of the thousand word essay..

thank you..

all the best
I remain clear as to what I have said, and have no problem reconciling my understanding of God with those statements.

As to the length of this thread, it has all along been determined primarily by your own inability to substantiate the inferences you have drawn and subsequent attempts at deflection when challenged to do so. But I agree our back and forth banter is pointless. So, unless you care to actually give a reason for suggesting that someone had claimed that Noah was sent to all men, this thread is going to have just one more post in it -- the one you will no doubt be unable to keep yourself from making in reply to this one.
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جوري
05-31-2009, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I remain clear as to what I have said, and have no problem reconciling my understanding of God with those statements.

As to the length of this thread, it has all along been determined primarily by your own inability to substantiate the inferences you have drawn and subsequent attempts at deflection when challenged to do so. But I agree our back and forth banter is pointless. blah blah.
I don't care to give any reasoning, as far as I am concerned you were asked concise questions in plain English and failed to give a satisfactory response.. me entering the same questions on every thread and you writing unrelated drivel doesn't equate to a deflection on my part rather failure on your part to deliver a sensical piece as relates to the topic. But you can tell yourself whatever you want to get through this!

all the best
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muslimapoclyptc
05-31-2009, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I didn't say anything about a flood, I said he was sent to 'his people' as per Quran.. nothing more nothing less on the subject..

:w:
I was under the impression that you believed that there were other people besides his, that existed at that time, who weren't effected by the flood.
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جوري
05-31-2009, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
I was under the impression that you believed that there were other people besides his, that existed at that time, who weren't effected by the flood.
My understanding as per Quran is that he was sent only to his people (qawmihi), that the flood was localized to an area and a people and wasn't global as per bible and where to a flood of that caliber he appears to be sent to save 'his family' and a few animals.

all the best

:w:
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
06-01-2009, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
My understanding as per Quran is that he was sent only to his people (qawmihi), that the flood was localized to an area and a people and wasn't global as per bible and where to a flood of that caliber he appears to be sent to save 'his family' and a few animals.

all the best

:w:
Then why does the Qur'an say in 37:77 that it was only the progeny of Prophet Nuh that endured on the earth afterward?

This is also confirmed in ahadith, stating that the descendants of Nuh's 3 sons make up the different peoples of the Earth today.
Reply

جوري
06-01-2009, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
Then why does the Qur'an say in 37:77 that it was only the progeny of Prophet Nuh that endured on the earth afterward?

This is also confirmed in ahadith, stating that the descendants of Nuh's 3 sons make up the different peoples of the Earth today.

I don't see how this is at odds to anything I said? as I have written on the previous page and I quote:
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
1- I believe what the Quran teaches on the matter and not my own whims.. we have no idea how many of them there were?

Obama is president to his people, but his people are a good 300,000 million?
perhaps this is all occurred before a continental drift. Perhaps his people were all the people there were, who knows? I certainly don't think the Earth looked like it did today, where because the folks in Mesopotamia are refractory Allah swt punishes the folks in Australia. and I certainly don't believe he was sent to his family alone either since that would make God very vengeful and Allah swt doesn't punish a folk without first sending a messenger with glad tidings and a reminder ..

so to be quite honest I am not sure what you are arguing for or against here?

all the best

:w:
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muslimapoclyptc
06-01-2009, 05:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't see how this is at odds to anything I said? as I have written on the previous page and I quote:


perhaps this is all occurred before a continental drift. Perhaps his people were all the people there were, who knows? I certainly don't think the Earth looked like it did today, where because the folks in Mesopotamia are refractory Allah swt punishes the folks in Australia. and I certainly don't believe he was sent to his family alone either since that would make God very vengeful and Allah swt doesn't punish a folk without first sending a messenger with glad tidings and a reminder ..

so to be quite honest I am not sure what you are arguing for or against here?

all the best

:w:
I'm arguing for a global flood, and that Prophet Nuh's people were everyone at the time.

Prophet Nuh's ark was built on a mountain, and is reported to have sailed from Iraq to Mecca, where it circled the Kaaba, and then sailed to Mt. Judi where it rested.

That's a really large area to be flooded over, and for the waters to reach up over mountains - at the very least - implies a global flood, or at least a very very large regional one.

No doubt the Earth was different then, especially in terms of geography. However, it's hard to believe this occurred before "continental drift".

Pangaea broke up 200 million years ago, giving way to the formation of the Earth's oceanic crust and thus all of the Earth's oceans. This break-up however, was slow, and took place over millions of years. Before then, most (if not all) of the Earth would've been covered by epeiric seas. I'm inclined to think all of this predates the flood (instead of coinciding with it), because of how long the process of change would've been.
Reply

Sampharo
06-01-2009, 07:39 AM
Pangaea is a theory and not exactly proven neither in timeline nor details. However Ibn Kathir book Al-Bidaya Wannihaya has more details on the subject taken from Ibn Abbas and Abdullah Ibn Omar to be collected from different Hadith of the prophet, yet some scholars believe it is not accurate because some Mawdoo and daeef hadith might be mixed in.

According to the book, (across 10 pages or so but I am summarizing here and keeping short whatever was already mentioned earlier) All people were localized in one nation at the time and spoke one language. Noah was their longest living, and spent the majority of 950 years of age in commitment to deliver God's message and trying to get his people to believe, as they had started worshipping their grandparents statues at the behest of Iblis. When he was told by God that no one else now will ever believe, Noah prayed to bring down a punishment and cleanse the Earth of all the disbelievers, for if any survive their progeny will be corrupt and evil (This suggests again that only Noah's people were on Earth, otherwise he would have travelled to other people to tell them rather than spend centuries in one nation). When he finished the ark, he took 80 families of believers who were all who believed (in some versions 72) along with couples of all the animals. When the flood hit they floated for months upon months, and the cats and pigs were created on the ark (Ibn Abbas said that when the mice and rodents bred too fast, God inspired Noah to touch the lion's and lioness's forehead, from which a couple of cats emerged. When filth was unbearable, Noah slapped or struck with a stick at the elephants backsides, and two pigs emerged who ate the waste and filth). This suggests a total immersion if they will spend such amount of time, and strongly again suggests a global flood, otherwise no sea level would be high enough to flood the tips of mountains but stay local without raising the global ocean levels to that same heights. Whether the tips of higher mountains like the himalayan mountains and the Alps were also covered since there were no people there is something for pure speculation. Anyway, when the time came and Noah's supplications to rest ashore were answered, Noah sent a bird (a crow) to find land, but it did not return and he sent another (a pigeon) that came back with mud in its feet. Noah headed to dry land and everyone disembarked. In the morning, the 80 families woke up unable to speak to each other, each of them had a different language and those formed the Earth's nations (unlike the biblical story that mixing of languages happened at Babel), so based on this there were no other people afterwards other than those on the ark.

God knows best
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
06-01-2009, 06:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
Pangaea is a theory and not exactly proven neither in timeline nor details.
Seafloor spreading is fairly proven, and we know that none of the ocean floors today are older than 200 million years. Also, the continents close together perfectly along the mid-ocean ridges.

However Ibn Kathir book Al-Bidaya Wannihaya has more details on the subject taken from Ibn Abbas and Abdullah Ibn Omar to be collected from different Hadith of the prophet, yet some scholars believe it is not accurate because some Mawdoo and daeef hadith might be mixed in.

According to the book, (across 10 pages or so but I am summarizing here and keeping short whatever was already mentioned earlier) All people were localized in one nation at the time and spoke one language. Noah was their longest living, and spent the majority of 950 years of age in commitment to deliver God's message and trying to get his people to believe, as they had started worshipping their grandparents statues at the behest of Iblis. When he was told by God that no one else now will ever believe, Noah prayed to bring down a punishment and cleanse the Earth of all the disbelievers, for if any survive their progeny will be corrupt and evil (This suggests again that only Noah's people were on Earth, otherwise he would have travelled to other people to tell them rather than spend centuries in one nation). When he finished the ark, he took 80 families of believers who were all who believed (in some versions 72) along with couples of all the animals. When the flood hit they floated for months upon months, and the cats and pigs were created on the ark (Ibn Abbas said that when the mice and rodents bred too fast, God inspired Noah to touch the lion's and lioness's forehead, from which a couple of cats emerged. When filth was unbearable, Noah slapped or struck with a stick at the elephants backsides, and two pigs emerged who ate the waste and filth). This suggests a total immersion if they will spend such amount of time, and strongly again suggests a global flood, otherwise no sea level would be high enough to flood the tips of mountains but stay local without raising the global ocean levels to that same heights. Whether the tips of higher mountains like the himalayan mountains and the Alps were also covered since there were no people there is something for pure speculation. Anyway, when the time came and Noah's supplications to rest ashore were answered, Noah sent a bird (a crow) to find land, but it did not return and he sent another (a pigeon) that came back with mud in its feet. Noah headed to dry land and everyone disembarked. In the morning, the 80 families woke up unable to speak to each other, each of them had a different language and those formed the Earth's nations (unlike the biblical story that mixing of languages happened at Babel), so based on this there were no other people afterwards other than those on the ark.
However, it was only the progeny of Prophet Nuh's family that endured on the Earth after the flood, while the progenies of those other families did not. So wouldn't the different languages they spoke have disappeared with their progenies?
Reply

جوري
06-01-2009, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc


However, it was only the progeny of Prophet Nuh's family that endured on the Earth after the flood, while the progenies of those other families did not. So wouldn't the different languages they spoke have disappeared with their progenies?
I think you may have misunderstood what it means having his 'progeny endure' which can be taken to denote that it was of his progeny that carried the torch of guidance to the present day through Ibrahim and his descendants up to the Holy Prophet.
Also--and this is speculative on my part, that you may not take every term so literally:

11:45 And noah called out to his Sustainer, and said: "O my Sustainer! Verily, my son was of my family; [67] and, verily, Thy promise always comes true, and Thou art the most just of all judges!"

11:46 [God] answered: "O noah, behold, he was not of thy family, for, verily, he was unrighteous in his conduct. [68] And thou shalt not ask of Me anything whereof thou canst not have any knowledge: [69] thus, behold, do I admonish thee lest thou become one of those who are unaware [of what is right]."


so from that you can infer that his family are 'those who are righteous' not simply genetic offspring!

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
06-01-2009, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I think you may misunderstand what it means having his 'progeny endure' which can be taken to denote that it was of his progeny that carried the torch of guidance to the present day through Ibrahim and his descendants up to the Holy Prophet. While the others became regular nations.

Also--and this is speculative on my part, that you may not take every term so literally:

11:45 And noah called out to his Sustainer, and said: "O my Sustainer! Verily, my son was of my family; [67] and, verily, Thy promise always comes true, and Thou art the most just of all judges!"

11:46 [God] answered: "O noah, behold, he was not of thy family, for, verily, he was unrighteous in his conduct. [68] And thou shalt not ask of Me anything whereof thou canst not have any knowledge: [69] thus, behold, do I admonish thee lest thou become one of those who are unaware [of what is right]."


so from that you can infer that his family are 'those who are righteous' not simply genetic offspring!

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
Then why do the ahadith specify that it is his offspring?

Also, is there any tafsir that gives your interpretation?
Reply

جوري
06-01-2009, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
Then why do the ahadith specify that it is his offspring?

tell me what you understood from what I have written above!

:w:
Reply

جوري
06-01-2009, 06:47 PM
this is what I have found of Ibn Kathir:


[وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمُ الْبَـقِينَ ]

(And, his progeny, them We made the survivors.) "All people descended from the offspring of Nuh, peace be upon him.'' At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim narrated from Samurah, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Prophet said, concerning the Ayah,

[وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمُ الْبَـقِينَ ]

(And, his progeny, them We made the survivors):

«سَامُ، وَحَامُ، وَيَافِث»

(Sam, Ham and Yafith.) Imam Ahmad recorded from Samurah, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Messenger of Allah said:

«سَامُ أَبُو الْعَرَبِ، وَحَامُ أَبُو الْحَبَشِ، وَيَافِثُ أَبُو الرُّوم»

(Sam was the father of the Arabs, Ham was the father of the Ethiopians and Yafith was the father of the Romans.)'' This was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi. What is meant here by Romans is the original Romans, i.e., the Greeks who claimed descent from Ruma (Roma) the son of Liti, the son of Yunan, the son of Yafith, the son of Nuh, peace be upon him.


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=37&tid=44185

Can I find anything to confirm my understanding, I think it is common sense? for who would those of his progeny mate with, if there were only Noah (p) and three sons? you need women.. you should also average in that other survivors, may have been old, or barren or their offspring perished at some point if all that remained were the progeny of Noah!
also apparent from the verse:
But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark: but We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people! (Surat al-Araf: 64)
Thereafter We drowned those who remained behind. (Surat ash-Shuara: 120)
We (once) sent Nuh to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin. (Surat al-Ankaboot: 14)
We saved him and those who adhered to him. By Our mercy, and We cut off the roots of those who rejected Our signs and did not believe. (Surat al-Araf: 72)

and Allah swt knows best.

this is my best understanding, anything beyond this I believe you have to direct to a scholar and not lay-men

:w:
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
06-01-2009, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
tell me what you understood from what I have written above!

:w:
I understood that you feel the ayat should not be taken literally in terms of what it means by "progeny" and what it means by "endure".

You take the former to refer to those who are righteous in conduct, and the latter to mean those who are with guidance.

To support the former, you quote the Qur'anic ayats, which show that Prophet Nuh's son Yam was considered to be not of his family for that very reason.

However, there is a difference between "family" and "progeny". Progeny specifically denotes offspring, while family is a very general term. You can have people who belong to one and not the other.

As for "endure", there is nothing to indicate the meaning, which you propose, as it simply says to endure on the Earth. To endure is to continue to last, or to survive. If it meant as torch bearers of guidance, it would've said so. Instead, all of the ahadith on the subject say that it is literally only his offspring that endures on the Earth.
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
06-01-2009, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
this is what I have found of Ibn Kathir:


[وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمُ الْبَـقِينَ ]

(And, his progeny, them We made the survivors.) "All people descended from the offspring of Nuh, peace be upon him.'' At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim narrated from Samurah, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Prophet said, concerning the Ayah,

[وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمُ الْبَـقِينَ ]

(And, his progeny, them We made the survivors):

«سَامُ، وَحَامُ، وَيَافِث»

(Sam, Ham and Yafith.) Imam Ahmad recorded from Samurah, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Messenger of Allah said:

«سَامُ أَبُو الْعَرَبِ، وَحَامُ أَبُو الْحَبَشِ، وَيَافِثُ أَبُو الرُّوم»

(Sam was the father of the Arabs, Ham was the father of the Ethiopians and Yafith was the father of the Romans.)'' This was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi. What is meant here by Romans is the original Romans, i.e., the Greeks who claimed descent from Ruma (Roma) the son of Liti, the son of Yunan, the son of Yafith, the son of Nuh, peace be upon him.


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=37&tid=44185

Can I find anything to confirm my understanding, I think it is common sense? for who would those of his progeny mate with, if there were only Noah (p) and three sons? you need women.. you should also average in that other survivors, may have been old, or barren or their offspring perished at some point if all that remained were the progeny of Noah!
also apparent from the verse:
But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark: but We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people! (Surat al-Araf: 64)
Thereafter We drowned those who remained behind. (Surat ash-Shuara: 120)
We (once) sent Nuh to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin. (Surat al-Ankaboot: 14)
We saved him and those who adhered to him. By Our mercy, and We cut off the roots of those who rejected Our signs and did not believe. (Surat al-Araf: 72)

and Allah swt knows best.

this is my best understanding, anything beyond this I believe you have to direct to a scholar and not lay-men

:w:
Prophet Nuh's sons had wives with them.
Reply

جوري
06-01-2009, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
Prophet Nuh's sons had wives with them.
so then Noah and his three sons couldn't have possibly been the only ones to survive if there would be a continuation of the specie.. correct?

:w:
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
06-01-2009, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
so then Noah and his three sons couldn't have possibly been the only ones to survive if there would be a continuation of the specie.. correct?

:w:
I never said they were the only ones to survive. I simply said that it was only Prophet Nuh's progeny that would endure on the Earth through them. Everyone else's progeny would not.

Everyone on the ark survived. That isn't the issue. The issue is who's progeny survived afterward.
Reply

جوري
06-01-2009, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
I never said they were the only ones to survive. I simply said that it was only Prophet Nuh's progeny that would endure on the Earth through them. Everyone else's progeny would not.

Everyone on the ark survived. That isn't the issue. The issue is who's progeny survived afterward.
I don't see any conflict in that. The earth was once populated by Adam and Eve, and it can be re-populated by Noah's progeny.. I again fail to see where there is an issue?

:w:
Reply

Beardo
06-01-2009, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't see any conflict in that. The earth was once populated by Adam and Eve, and it can be re-populated by Noah's progeny.. I again fail to see where there is an issue?

:w:
Funny. We were studying this in class just last Saturday.

Basically, here's how it works:
Prophet Adam Alayhe Salaam's progeny was wiped out, and Prophet Nuh Alayhe Salaam restarted the world basically with a pair of every animal, and then the Muslims and believers of that time. Don't know if that helps any. :skeleton:
Reply

muslimapoclyptc
06-01-2009, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't see any conflict in that. The earth was once populated by Adam and Eve, and it can be re-populated by Noah's progeny.. I again fail to see where there is an issue?

:w:
You had suggested that 37:77 meant more than just his genetic offspring, and I took issue with that.
Reply

جوري
06-01-2009, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimapoclyptc
You had suggested that 37:77 meant more than just his genetic offspring, and I took issue with that.

indeed, and I thought you'd agreed that they couldn't reproduce or have progeny if they were the three mere survivors? I also believe that I'd written, 'perhaps those who were on board were old, barren or women, any number of things or their off spring perished for any number of reasons'.. I'd also written that it was all speculative on my part, since I can only work with what is logical and what is revealed in the Quran..

:w:
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
06-01-2009, 11:00 PM
:salamext:

You may find more about Nooh (Noah) through these sources:

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...-nuh-noah.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1114011
http://www.islamhouse.com/p/50936
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1199/ [Part 1]
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1200/ [Part 2]
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1335/ [Part 3]

"The Lives of the Prophets" is a series of lectures delivered by Anwar Al-Awlaki. It is the first such series produced in the English language. The author has done extensive research in the original Arabic resources. The series is based primarily on Ibn Kathir¦s " Al-Bidayah wa-nihayah (The Beginning and the End)". Br. Al-Awlaki has done an excellent job of relying almost completely on the Quran, Hadith and statements of the Noble Companions.

Track 1 | Track 2 | Track 3 | Track 4 | Track 5 | Track 6 | Track 7 | Track 8 | Track 9 | Track 10 | Track 11 | Track 12 | Track 13 | Track 14 | Track 15 | Track 16 | Track 17 | Track 18 | Track 19 | Track 20 | Track 21 |












:threadclo
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