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Thinker
03-21-2009, 07:55 PM
http://www.zeenews.com/southasia/200...15537news.html

I have formed the view that a lot of Muslims living in the west would like to be governed by sharia law. In fact I seem to recall calls from some Muslims in the UK to be allowed to govern themselves by sharia law. Watching TV this morning and saw a report of the edict issued by the SAWT valley Taliban to judges and lawyers ordering them not to attend court telling them there is no place for them in sharia law (see above link) and I wondered how it would work in a non-tribal society. I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society? It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge. Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam. Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law. I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
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aamirsaab
03-21-2009, 10:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
[snip]...
I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society?
Sharia could indeed work in the 21st century. In fact, if you've been awake this year, you'll probably have noticed several things that a sharia law system would help to eradicate, namely the credit crunch, abortion rates, divorce rates and alcohol related violence.

It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge.
Nope. Local imaam does not equate to judge in sharia. There's a process involved - a lengthy one!

Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam.
Nope.

Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law.
Nope.

I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime.
It's not nebulous, unstructured or unjust in any way shape or form.

I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system.
Females are not denied any freedoms in sharia...

If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
Noone would. But, you have misconceptions about Sharia - you like most critics assume sharia law to be a form of extreme dictatorship were men are kings and women are slaves. That is all wrong, I'm telling you right now.

If you'd like to actually know what sharia teaches, by all means ask. This thread is fine for doing so but we do have many other threads on the matter (use search function please).
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Whatsthepoint
03-21-2009, 11:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
namely the credit crunch
Do tell!
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Females are not denied any freedoms in sharia...
Yes they are, but you'll probably say they don't need those or are not suited to have them.
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Strzelecki
03-22-2009, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes they are, but you'll probably say they don't need those or are not suited to have them.
If you're so confident that they are why have you failed to outline for the forum what they are?
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 12:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by buriedaway_4536
If you're so confident that they are why have you failed to outline for the forum what they are?
I have outlind them before and Aamirsaab knows them and I have an idea of what he will reply, so I'm not sure why I even replied in the first place.
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Strzelecki
03-22-2009, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I have outlind them before and Aamirsaab knows them and I have an idea of what he will reply, so I'm not sure why I even replied in the first place.
Why not outline them again? :)
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by buriedaway_4536
Why not outline them again? :)
Ok.
Their witness is worth half the witness fo a man, tehy inherit less, can't be heads of states, they can't marry 4 men, they don't get virgins in heaven, if tehy're slaves, their masters can have sex with them, there's a dispute as to whethr they're allowed to vote etc.
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alcurad
03-22-2009, 02:18 AM
depends on what you call Shari'a, unfortunately many take the tribal customs and so on to be Shari'a.
women are equal to men as witnesses, at the time of the prophet women didn't own and operate businesses that much, nowadays it's different. as for the other cases you've mentioned, you were either truly unaware, or making a silly attempt at humor-marrying 4 men etc-so I'll not address them.
making up rules and laws is left to us except in a few instances, Shari'a in the literal sense is not a complete system of government, rather a few commandments that are applied in specific cases but no more.
however taken broadly, it's an holistic system that calls for justice and mercy, and the betterment of all, albeit the details of how to reach such a state are left to us.
notice that what people take to be Shari'a in the matter of punishments is not actually based on Islam, whipping eighty lashes or forty for being drunk for example is not part of any legislation by the qur'an or the prophet.
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
depends on what you call Shari'a, unfortunately many take the tribal customs and so on to be Shari'a.
women are equal to men as witnesses, at the time of the prophet women didn't own and operate businesses that much, nowadays it's different. as for the other cases you've mentioned, you were either truly unaware, or making a silly attempt at humor-marrying 4 men etc-so I'll not address them.
No they're not, 4 male witnesses equals 8 female witnesses. Perhaps they're equal in some cases.
Well, it's true women have less rights than men and it's also true, as I said ebfore, that Muslims will contest that they don't need them, are created differently or something in these lines.
Which brings me to the main problem I have with Islam and women's rights. Islam assumes some sort of gender roles and bases its entire legislation on them rather then letting everyone decide for themsleves.
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Thinker
03-22-2009, 09:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Noone would. But, you have misconceptions about Sharia - you like most critics assume sharia law to be a form of extreme dictatorship were men are kings and women are slaves. That is all wrong, I'm telling you right now.

I hear what you say but I see what I see and I see the Taliban operating 'sharia' law and under that banner I see them stopping girls from attending (normal) school and making them wear the burka and many other unacceptable things.
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aamirsaab
03-22-2009, 10:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok.
Their witness is worth half the witness fo a man,
Only in certain business related affairs.

tehy inherit less,
Don't matter; a third of the will can be given to anyone. Secondly, men are considered head of the house thus have to provide for the family. Example: a will leaves the son in charge of £100 and the daughter only £50. But, it is the DUTY of the boy to support the rest of the family - the daughter has no such responsibility. Therefore, the daughter keeps the 50 quid and can do as she pleases, the son HAS to spend that £100 on the family.

can't be heads of states,
Yes they can

they can't marry 4 men,
This has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with doing what is neccessary when the time fits. That's what most folk don;'t understand about this concept. Even men marrying 4 wives isn't an obligation to begin with - it depends on what is neccessary for the time (i.e the population spread of men and women, the economical conditions and so on and so forth - it really is a topic in and of itself)

they don't get virgins in heaven,
1st off that is in heaven not in a sharia state
2nd I believe women are indeed rewarded with virgins in heaven (hoor's are not just female)

if tehy're slaves, their masters can have sex with them,
Again, nothing to do with a sharia state. Plus, that's only true if they MARRY them.

there's a dispute as to whethr they're allowed to vote etc.
Nope - they have full voting rights.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I hear what you say but I see what I see and I see the Taliban operating 'sharia' law and under that banner I see them stopping girls from attending (normal) school and making them wear the burka and many other unacceptable things.
The taliban are not the prime example of sharia. It's a rather extreme form of sharia - at least in terms of implementation.
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Amadeus85
03-22-2009, 11:34 AM
In muslim countries, muslims should have the law that they really want. No one should disturb them, even if its most strickt religious law. MY resist arises only when they want to bring it to Europe.
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Malaikah
03-22-2009, 11:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system.
I can't believe there are people who have the audacity to say such offensive, misinformed rubbish on a Muslim forum in the 21st century!

Oh, wait...
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Thinker
03-22-2009, 12:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
I can't believe there are people who have the audacity to say such offensive, misinformed rubbish on a Muslim forum in the 21st century! oh, wait...
Hmmm :?. . . . what did I say that you found 'offensive'?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-22-2009, 12:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Do tell!

Yes they are, but you'll probably say they don't need those or are not suited to have them.
And what restrictions are these? The restriction from traveling alone so they may be safe from a man who intends harm to them? or is it men who complain about sexual abuse?

Is that she must veil herself and conceal her beauty so she may not be bothered by men who have a deseased heart?

Or is it that the husband has higher rights over his wife? I'm sure no man will ever feel appriceated if he has a rebelious wife.


format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No they're not, 4 male witnesses equals 8 female witnesses. Perhaps they're equal in some cases.
Well, it's true women have less rights than men and it's also true, as I said ebfore, that Muslims will contest that they don't need them, are created differently or something in these lines.
Which brings me to the main problem I have with Islam and women's rights. Islam assumes some sort of gender roles and bases its entire legislation on them rather then letting everyone decide for themsleves.
What you fail to understand is that islam isn't based on equality, it's based on justice. And yes Islam does have gender roles.

Can you give birth? Can you breast feed your child? Or do you have enough patience, care and compasion as that of a mother to raise your children?

Or do woman have the natural physical strength to work hard labour and earn a living in such a manner everyday?

Men and women are naturally different so they have different inherent qualities and will naturally play different roles, there are certain things a man can do that a woman cannot do and vise versa. We are equal in gods eyes but we are not the same.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok.
Their witness is worth half the witness fo a man, tehy inherit less,
Ok, lets talk about inheritance. But before I do, remember the key word...Justice! As for the witness being more then that of the man, i'll get back to that shortly.

Say that a man has just died and he had 10 million pounds (or dollars if you're in America) in his will and the only recipients of this inheritance is 1 man and 1 woman. The man gets 6 million and the woman gets 4 million. Once they have obtained the inheretance they go their own seperate ways.

The man, as time goes on, gets older and wants to get married. As he gets married he has to pay the woman her dowry, and once he is married he has to pay all the household expences such as rent, bills, tax etc and Islamically he is obliged to shelter, feed and clothe his wife.

Some time goes by and he has children, so now he has to get a bigger house, a bigger car and spend more money on expences for his wife and kids while they are not obliged to spend a penny on their father.

While on the other hand, the woman who inherited 4 million pounds or dollars decides not to spend a penny of of her inhereted money. She later decides to get married, so now she receives a dowry from her husband. Then as a wife, it is her husband who is obliged to clothe her, feeds her and shelter her and she isn't obliged to spend a penny on him because the Islamic obligation to spend is on the husband even after they have children. Now as time goes on the wife gets bored of staying home so she decides to work. Islamically all the money that the wife earns is her own money and the husband does not have any right to take it from her unless she gives of her own will.

So over the years the man spends the money on bills and on a basic living and the wife sits back and relaxes so the money of the man goes lower and lower as the years go on, whereas the woman gets money from the dowry, money from her husband to spend on what she wants, she gets fed, sheltered and clothed and then when she works the husband isn't allowed any of it so her money goes higher and higher.

The man has more legal expences that he must spend the money on so he is more in need of a bigger share of inheretance whereas a woman isn't because the men are Islamically obliged to spend on them before or after marriage.

This is the Islamic justice!


they can't marry 4 men
Honestly, would you allow your wife to marry 3 more husbands? Will you be able to tell which one her 4 husbands have made her pregnant? Can you stand the thought of knowning another man is spending the night with her?

A man can have four wives because it isn't a woman who usually desire more then one partner. But bare in mind that it isn't an obligation to have 4 wives, it isn't even an obligation to have one wife. To have one wife is recommended and to have more then that, up to four, is just a permissibility!

Excuse my language, but even in the non-muslim society a woman who sleeps with more then one man is known as a w*ore so what would be the case for a woman who marries more then one man??

they don't get virgins in heaven
Everyone in heaven will be chaste.

if tehy're slaves, their masters can have sex with them
That's with their permission, if they refuse then the man cannot force her. Again, it goes back to my point that what man in the world is going to allow his wife to sleep with another male? Please, use some common sense!
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YusufNoor
03-22-2009, 12:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hmmm :?. . . . what did I say that you found 'offensive'?
you're joking...right?

:?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-22-2009, 12:59 PM
Thinker, I'll tell you the same thing I tell all non-muslims.

Stop asking non-muslims what Islam is and what Muslims are how they feel, ask a Muslim about Islam and go to Islamic sources and then make a judgement!

And I think you'll find that most of the coverts to Islam are female, that at the very least should tell you that you are misinformed about the Islamic teachings.
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Thinker
03-22-2009, 01:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
you're joking...right?

:?
No, absolutely not - I honestly can't see where anyone could take offence at what I have said in this thread!!
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
And what restrictions are these? The restriction from traveling alone so they may be safe from a man who intends harm to them? or is it men who complain about sexual abuse?
Is that she must veil herself and conceal her beauty so she may not be bothered by men who have a deseased heart?
Or is it that the husband has higher rights over his wife? I'm sure no man will ever feel appriceated if he has a rebelious wife.
Yes, all of the above. And most of all I am bothered by the quranic notion that all women are the same, that none is able to defend herself, that each one is bothered by men with a diseased heart and of course that man's marital wishes about the rebeliosity of his wife(s) come before their rights.
What you fail to understand is that islam isn't based on equality, it's based on justice. And yes Islam does have gender roles.
Can you give birth? Can you breast feed your child? Or do you have enough patience, care and compasion as that of a mother to raise your children?
Or do woman have the natural physical strength to work hard labour and earn a living in such a manner everyday?
Men and women are naturally different so they have different inherent qualities and will naturally play different roles, there are certain things a man can do that a woman cannot do and vise versa. We are equal in gods eyes but we are not the same.
Ok, lets talk about inheritance. But before I do, remember the key word...Justice! As for the witness being more then that of the man, i'll get back to that shortly.
Say that a man has just died and he had 10 million pounds (or dollars if you're in America) in his will and the only recipients of this inheritance is 1 man and 1 woman. The man gets 6 million and the woman gets 4 million. Once they have obtained the inheretance they go their own seperate ways.
The man, as time goes on, gets older and wants to get married. As he gets married he has to pay the woman her dowry, and once he is married he has to pay all the household expences such as rent, bills, tax etc and Islamically he is obliged to shelter, feed and clothe his wife.
Some time goes by and he has children, so now he has to get a bigger house, a bigger car and spend more money on expences for his wife and kids while they are not obliged to spend a penny on their father.
While on the other hand, the woman who inherited 4 million pounds or dollars decides not to spend a penny of of her inhereted money. She later decides to get married, so now she receives a dowry from her husband. Then as a wife, it is her husband who is obliged to clothe her, feeds her and shelter her and she isn't obliged to spend a penny on him because the Islamic obligation to spend is on the husband even after they have children. Now as time goes on the wife gets bored of staying home so she decides to work. Islamically all the money that the wife earns is her own money and the husband does not have any right to take it from her unless she gives of her own will.
So over the years the man spends the money on bills and on a basic living and the wife sits back and relaxes so the money of the man goes lower and lower as the years go on, whereas the woman gets money from the dowry, money from her husband to spend on what she wants, she gets fed, sheltered and clothed and then when she works the husband isn't allowed any of it so her money goes higher and higher.
The man has more legal expences that he must spend the money on so he is more in need of a bigger share of inheretance whereas a woman isn't because the men are Islamically obliged to spend on them before or after marriage.
This is the Islamic justice!
There are biological differences but that doesn't mean a man is an inherently better caretaker or that women are better at parenting and worse at keeping bills and finances.
Quran in my opinion underestimats women and is overly protective, making husbands take care of all importan things, which btw I find discriminatory against my own gender!
So I don't find the Islamic system particulary just.
Honestly, would you allow your wife to marry 3 more husbands? Will you be able to tell which one her 4 husbands have made her pregnant? Can you stand the thought of knowning another man is spending the night with her?
A man can have four wives because it isn't a woman who usually desire more then one partner. But bare in mind that it isn't an obligation to have 4 wives, it isn't even an obligation to have one wife. To have one wife is recommended and to have more then that, up to four, is just a permissibility!
Excuse my language, but even in the non-muslim society a woman who sleeps with more then one man is known as a w*ore so what would be the case for a woman who marries more then one man??
Tell me, why does it only matter what men want in their wives? What about women? You think women are ok with their men having multiple wives? You seem to think no man is and most women are. Now, I am told a wife can divorce her husband if she doesn't want him to marry another though I'm not sure about that, so why not make the same option for women? If the husban were incomplicit with her wife's wishes, he could simply leave. Of course, provided both spouses get an equal share of the inheritence.
The last part really made em thinking. We apparently live in a chavinistc society where a woman sleeping with several men is called a wohre and there's not a single really pejorative word for a man sleeping with several women.

Everyone in heaven will be chaste.
so what are the virgins all about?
That's with their permission, if they refuse then the man cannot force her. Again, it goes back to my point that what man in the world is going to allow his wife to sleep with another male? Please, use some common sense!
It goes abck to the point that it's not only about men.
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Only in certain business related affairs.
Why?
What about adultery?
Yes they can
Really?
2nd I believe women are indeed rewarded with virgins in heaven (hoor's are not just female)
Could you show me a verse, hadith..?
Nope - they have full voting rights.
again, could you show me a verse, hadith.
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KAding
03-22-2009, 04:01 PM
An Islamic State is not a theocracy. It is more akin to giving the Qu'ran the status of an unchangeable constitution. The rulers in an Islamic state need not be clerics.

The reality is that there are no (or very few) real Islamic states in the Muslim world. There are many reasons for this IMHO, one of them appears to be that too few Muslims actually want to be ruled by Islamic law? Or at the very least there seems to be disagreement on what exactly is Islamic law. The states that do claim to be Islamic are generally rejected as not practising "true" Islam by a majority of Muslims.
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Uthman
03-22-2009, 04:21 PM
I do want Shari'ah law. Not in Britain though.
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YusufNoor
03-22-2009, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
http://www.zeenews.com/southasia/200...15537news.html

I have formed the view that a lot of Muslims living in the west would like to be governed by sharia law. In fact I seem to recall calls from some Muslims in the UK to be allowed to govern themselves by sharia law. Watching TV this morning and saw a report of the edict issued by the SAWT valley Taliban to judges and lawyers ordering them not to attend court telling them there is no place for them in sharia law (see above link) and I wondered how it would work in a non-tribal society. I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society? It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge. Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam. Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law. I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
No, absolutely not - I honestly can't see where anyone could take offence at what I have said in this thread!!
perhaps you forgot what you wrote?

:w:
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KAding
03-22-2009, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
No, absolutely not - I honestly can't see where anyone could take offence at what I have said in this thread!!
Ehm. It's like walking into a Workers International meeting and telling them that Socialism is unjust and oppressive and that they must be idiots for wanting it :D.
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- Qatada -
03-22-2009, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
An Islamic State is not a theocracy. It is more akin to giving the Qu'ran the status of an unchangeable constitution. The rulers in an Islamic state need not be clerics.

The reality is that there are no (or very few) real Islamic states in the Muslim world. There are many reasons for this IMHO, one of them appears to be that too few Muslims actually want to be ruled by Islamic law? Or at the very least there seems to be disagreement on what exactly is Islamic law. The states that do claim to be Islamic are generally rejected as not practising "true" Islam by a majority of Muslims.

Hey :)


I think you should read this since it'll clear your misunderstanding;

The Role of Colonization on the Political System of the Muslim World (today):

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/359/
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aamirsaab
03-22-2009, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Why?
Thank you Akulion

What about adultery?
Eh?

Really?
Yup. Nothing in Islam prevents women from being heads of state i.e. there is no law banning them from that position.

Could you show me a verse, hadith..?
Thread = read ansar's first post
Specific sura/ayat = Sura 4 verse 57.

Again, could you show me a verse, hadith.
Sura 60, verse 12: “O Prophet! Whenever believing women come unto thee to pledge their allegiance to thee… then accept their pledge of allegiance.”

OT: Sharia would benefit the UK but since we cannot even discuss this concept in a civilised manner (see archbishop of canterbury fiasco), then forget it.


Until the wider community gathers the appropriate understanding of sharia, then it should not be implemented in the UK (even if that condition was met, sharia law is for ISLAMIC STATES ONLY [to the reader: if you remember anything about this post, please let it be the previous 3 words in caps outside the brackets!] ---> UK is not an islamic state [also important to note!]).
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
women are not intelectually deficient especially in terms of memory, no practical data, such us university and college attendance attendance, scholarships, suggest this.
Are 8 female witnesses also required in cases of adultery?
Yup. Nothing in Islam prevents women from being heads of state i.e. there is no law banning them from that position.
Bukhari reports on the authority of Abu Bakrah that he said: Allah has given me the privilege of a word which I heard from the Messenger of Allah during the days of [the battle of] Al-Jamal, when I was about to join the people of Al-Jamal and fight with them: When the Messenger of Allah heard that the people of Persia had appointed the daughter of Chosroes (Qisra), he said: ‘People who appoint a woman as their leader will never succeed’. (Bukhari, No: 4425)


Thread = read ansar's first post
Specific sura/ayat = Sura 4 verse 57.
It's not clear whether women will get hoors.

Sura 60, verse 12: “O Prophet! Whenever believing women come unto thee to pledge their allegiance to thee… then accept their pledge of allegiance.”
Allegiance automatically means voting rights?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-22-2009, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It goes abck to the point that it's not only about men.
That's according to your short sightedness and limited views, not according to the Islamic teachings. Do you ever hear a sister on the forum making a big fuss about these issues?

Yes, all of the above. And most of all I am bothered by the quranic notion that all women are the same, that none is able to defend herself, that each one is bothered by men with a diseased heart and of course that man's marital wishes about the rebeliosity of his wife(s) come before their rights.
As I said, how many women complain about rape, abuse, and other forms of physical attacks?

Who is naturally there to protect them? It's the men of their familes, this doens't make men any better then women nor does it take any rights away from them. A woman giving birth doesn't make her any better then a man, so a man protecting a woman doesn't mean they are better then them.


There are biological differences but that doesn't mean a man is an inherently better caretaker or that women are better at parenting and worse at keeping bills and finances.
Quran in my opinion underestimats women and is overly protective, making husbands take care of all importan things, which btw I find discriminatory against my own gender!
So I don't find the Islamic system particulary just.
Oh how Islamic history and the Qur'an will prove you utterly wrong.

Make your judgement after knowing how women in Islam have excelled the men in knowledge and virtue. Some of the greatest scholars of the past such as Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdadi studied under woman, Ibn Hajar asqalani and many others. You may not know these names but these are just some of the greatest figures of Islamic history who wrote in their books the biographies of their teachers and some had up to 80 women teachers who even gave them certifications to teach certain subjects who they themselves were unqualified in.

Muslim woman played an important role side by side with men and were handed the greatest religious responsibilities and have played an integral part in reforming society. They raised scholars and were scholars themselves, they were given authority over men in religious affairs and at the heart of all of this was the teachings of the Qur'an.

By my earlier reply no one said women are worse at bill keeping rather what I said was men are Islamically obliged to spend money on their women. Nor am I saying that men cannot do a good job raising children, rather I said women are known to have the patience and compassion to raise children better then men, generally.



Tell me, why does it only matter what men want in their wives? What about women? You think women are ok with their men having multiple wives? You seem to think no man is and most women are. Now, I am told a wife can divorce her husband if she doesn't want him to marry another though I'm not sure about that, so why not make the same option for women? If the husban were incomplicit with her wife's wishes, he could simply leave. Of course, provided both spouses get an equal share of the inheritence.
The last part really made em thinking. We apparently live in a chavinistc society where a woman sleeping with several men is called a wohre and there's not a single really pejorative word for a man sleeping with several women.
Learn the Islamic teachings and understand them before speaking about them because you don't really seem to know what your talking about.
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Thinker
03-22-2009, 08:11 PM
There are many ‘Muslim’ countries yet there are few Muslim countries that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, there’s got to be a reason for that?

I can think of only two countries/provinces, possibly three that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, Iran, Saudi (not sure) and the Taliban areas. And, from what I can see, these three countries operate their own (and different) interpretation of the law.

Below are a few judgements from sharia courts

“In 2002, a Nigerian Sharia court sentenced Amina Lawal to be stoned to death for having a child out of wedlock; in contrast, the man named as the father denied responsibility, and as a result, the court dropped charges against him.

“In another case, teenager Bariya Magazu asserted that she was raped by three men and became pregnant as a result. Because she had sex outside of marriage, a Sharia court sentenced her to one hundred lashes, even though seven people corroborated her story. The men accused of the rape received no punishment.

“The extreme bias against women is apparent in sentences of adultery or fornication under Sharia. A woman is convicted simply by becoming pregnant, but a man is not condemned unless four people can testify that they witnessed the normally private acts of adultery or fornication.

“Countries such as Nigeria impose flogging, stoning, or severing off a hand ... all of which are deterrent punishments for serious crimes mentioned in the (Koran).”
There are

Tehran, Dec. 26 – Iranian press have reported the public execution of at least four women in the past year, with at least 14 more to be publicly hanged or stoned to death. http://www.iranfocus.com/en/index.ph...k=view&id=1088

An Iranian woman faces being stoned to death for having an affair with a married man. Mother- of- two Mokarrameh Ebrahimi has spent the last 11 years in jail for adultery with Jafa Kiani (and what happened to Jafa??) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-adultery.html

So I ask again, can a female here tell me why they would prefer to live under a regime that operates the sharia law which clearly treats women badly.
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Uthman
03-22-2009, 08:15 PM
I agree that a female should answer Thinker's question. :)
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mahdisoldier19
03-22-2009, 08:42 PM
To Thinker,

To Establish Sharia Law, requires striving in the Path of Allah swt. These countries whom your mentioning are countries that solely do not depend on the Quran and Sunnah in many areas. They are just like that Taghut(Idol) regimes of the Arab world which has infected the Muslim world with this idea of Nationalism instead of Muslim. Do we accept Saudi Arabia as a true Islamic state, No, Nigeria? No, Iran? Definitely No. And the evidences are plentiful.

In Saudi Arabia, their implementation of Sharia does not reach the knuckles or hands of the princes or kings even for a great treachery. In regards to Iran, the land of those who curse and reject aspects of Quran and the Sahaba, any Muslim who is Ahul Sunnah wa Jamaat will reject them.

So therefore, when you state Islamic countries, you have no clue what your talking about. You have to be a Muslim to understand the true concept of implementation and carrying that through Fi Sabilillah to establish the Sharia. No Kafir can do this, and if your Agnostic then you are a Kaffir, because you heard about the message of Islam, yet you reject it. So there would be no point explaining any distinctive or points in this matter to you.

However if you are a Muslim, then we can discuss the matter..

In regards to your comment "clearly treats women bad", the true implementation of Sharia will not treat women bad, is this going to lead to a debate? If so you better get your wikipedia pages ready..
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aamirsaab
03-22-2009, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
women are not intelectually deficient especially in terms of memory, no practical data, such us university and college attendance attendance, scholarships, suggest this.
Are 8 female witnesses also required in cases of adultery?
Re-read akulion's post on that thread - it explains why in relation to business matters and not in general.

No, 8 female witnesses are not needed. I already said at the beginning it's two vs 1 on business matters only (even then it's up to the judge [who may also be female] in the courtroom anyway since the judge has a lot of power in an Islamic court!)

Bukhari reports on the authority of Abu Bakrah that he said: Allah has given me the privilege of a word which I heard from the Messenger of Allah during the days of [the battle of] Al-Jamal, when I was about to join the people of Al-Jamal and fight with them: When the Messenger of Allah heard that the people of Persia had appointed the daughter of Chosroes (Qisra), he said: ‘People who appoint a woman as their leader will never succeed’. (Bukhari, No: 4425)
There's more to it than that. You'll have to consult either an imaam or scholar though. Hadith require (years of) expertise in the field - something that I do not have :).

But, even if that is so (i.e women are not allowed a position of head of state under Islam) can you name me one successful female head of state in the west today? The latest one was margaret thatcher - years back and only ever occured once throughout the western political history (she served a lot of years but only one female head of state in either of the two 'modern' countries).

So the point is moot anyway; it doesn't occur in the western world so the ladies are not missing out on much in an Islamic state.

This coupled with the fact that Islam sees men as the ones with responsibility (head of the house), plus the impracticalities of it - say the head of state goes on maternity leave (or is heavily pregnant, or is on her periods, or is in a state of pms etc) - you really going to trust her to govern a country in that state? (note, I have no problem in who does what, but there are practical reasons for all the rulings in Islam - if you're unwilling to accept that, this discussion is entirely pointless)

The Islamic system (where there does exist boundaries --- for a practical reasons and not arbitrary!) is fundemntally different to the UK/US (where the emphasis in those respective countries is anyone can do anything - the american dream and whatnot [which in practical terms is utter bs])

It's not clear whether women will get hoors.
Don't matter, we're not dealing with who gets what in heaven anyway (we can continue this particular issue in a more appropriate thread). We got side tracked and the point was to direct you into that thread (or something similar) and carry on the discussion there.

Allegiance automatically means voting rights?
Read into it what you want.

Fact is, women had the right to vote in the Islamic world (1400 years back), long before both the US and the UK (around 100 years ago...).
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KAding
03-22-2009, 09:02 PM
Personally I'm looking forward to a modern Muslim state trying to implement Sha'ria law. I'm guessing there are ways to implement Islamic laws with a degree of moderation that would make it compatible with modern society. It would be a magnificent experiment and we could finally see if it is a feasible system for a modern and economically developed country. Only problem I see if that there aren't any truly developed rich Muslim countries yet, although I suppose, say, Turkey comes fairly close?

I mean, pointing to the Taliban, the SWAT area in Pakistan or Somalia is somewhat unfair. These are dirt-poor, undeveloped, tribal countries which lack the physical, political and bureaucratic infrastructure that modern countries have. Their implementation of Sha'ria is bound to be completely different from what it would be if it were implemented in a rich and developed country. Finally we would be able to get some real answers on the feasibility and desirability of such a system.

Would it last? Would it really bring social justice? Or would it cause the economy to collapse and lead to totalitarianism? So many questions! I would pay for that!
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Thinker
03-22-2009, 09:06 PM
I found the below examples of inequality whilst trying to find what the sharia says with regards to who gets the children and the division of wealth upon divorce.

Wife cannot divorce husband without a ‘reason of the sharia.’ http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/488/divorce
But (I believe) a husband can divorce his wife any time for any or no reason!

The reason why the husband is regarded as superior and is given the role of qawwaam (protector and maintainer) http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/43252/

So what does the sharia says with regards to who gets the children and the division of wealth upon divorce?
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Thinker
03-22-2009, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Personally I'm looking forward to a modern Muslim state trying to implement Sha'ria law.
Me too; as I said none of the Muslim countries are rushing to adopt it, there must be a reason.

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I mean, pointing to the Taliban, the SWAT area in Pakistan or Somalia is somewhat unfair. These are dirt-poor, undeveloped, tribal countries which lack the physical, political and bureaucratic infrastructure that modern countries have. Their implementation of Sha'ria is bound to be completely different from what it would be if it were implemented in a rich and developed country!
Surely there is only one sharia law and only one true version of it and that must be the same for every country and evry people?
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KAding
03-22-2009, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Hey :)


I think you should read this since it'll clear your misunderstanding;

The Role of Colonization on the Political System of the Muslim World (today):

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/359/
Interesting link! Thanks. Of course Imperialism played a significant role, but I can't say I find it very convincing. It also doesn't explain why the pre-colonization "Islamic political and economic systems" were so ineffective at thwarting European ambitions.

There are plenty of Muslim countries that have the opportunity to completely revamp their political and judicial system along Islamic lines and yet are apparently choosing to not do so (thinking of countries like Malaysia, Indonesia or Turkey). But we'll see, maybe as the effects of the European imperialist age wear off there will be a move towards Islamic rule.
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KAding
03-22-2009, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Surely there is only one sharia law and only one true version of it and that must be the same for every country and evry people?
Pfft, that is just fundamentalist religious propaganda is you ask me. Any political system will need to adapt itself to the culture, economic system and level of development of the host country.

Of course, the real danger is the same as with "communism". It is that all actual implementations of an Islamic state will be rejected by significant Muslim groups as "unauthentic" because none of the implementations is exactly like the ideal-typical Utopian Islamic state as they romanticized it to be at the time of Muhammed. We'll end up with a never ending and faith-based argument that implementation X, Y or Z "wasn't the real Islam" and that we have to try again.
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Whatsthepoint
03-22-2009, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Re-read akulion's post on that thread - it explains why in relation to business matters and not in general.

No, 8 female witnesses are not needed. I already said at the beginning it's two vs 1 on business matters only (even then it's up to the judge [who may also be female] in the courtroom anyway since the judge has a lot of power in an Islamic court!)
Could you rpovide evidence that it's for business matters only.
Akulion's post shows a difference in the brain, what I said is that there is no conclusive practical evidence that women are intelectually defficient. Women can acheieve the same results as men, can memorize the same aount of data as men etc.
Compare this to other races. Some races may posses a different or a smaller brain but given the same upbringing as for isnatnce a British citizen, they should achieve the same results.


But, even if that is so (i.e women are not allowed a position of head of state under Islam) can you name me one successful female head of state in the west today? The latest one was margaret thatcher - years back and only ever occured once throughout the western political history (she served a lot of years but only one female head of state in either of the two 'modern' countries).
So the point is moot anyway; it doesn't occur in the western world so the ladies are not missing out on much in an Islamic state.
This coupled with the fact that Islam sees men as the ones with responsibility (head of the house), plus the impracticalities of it - say the head of state goes on maternity leave (or is heavily pregnant, or is on her periods, or is in a state of pms etc) - you really going to trust her to govern a country in that state? (note, I have no problem in who does what, but there are practical reasons for all the rulings in Islam - if you're unwilling to accept that, this discussion is entirely pointless)
You're terribly misinformed. There have been female heads of state in Ireland, Finland, New Zealand, Israel, Bangladesh to name a few. What about queen Elizabeth I and queen Victoria? Were the eras they ruled in the most prosperous in the entire history of the British Isles?
the practical reasons you mentioned, apart from pregnancy, but we could rpevent that with mandatory birth control for female leaders, are not a sufficient reason to abn them from being heads of states.
The Islamic system (where there does exist boundaries --- for a practical reasons and not arbitrary!) is fundemntally different to the UK/US (where the emphasis in those respective countries is anyone can do anything - the american dream and whatnot [which in practical terms is utter bs])
Why is it bs?
Fact is, women had the right to vote in the Islamic world (1400 years back), long before both the US and the UK (around 100 years ago...).
Ok..
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aamirsaab
03-22-2009, 09:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
...
Wife cannot divorce husband without a ‘reason of the sharia.’ http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/488/divorce
But (I believe) a husband can divorce his wife any time for any or no reason!
Nope. Man cannot divorce wife for ''no reason''. It wouldn't fly in an Islamic court.

So what does the sharia says with regards to who gets the children and the division of wealth upon divorce?
That's up to the Judge.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Me too; as I said none of the Muslim countries are rushing to adopt it, there must be a reason.
Plenty:
* Noone can agree on who should represent as a caliph (prerequisit for sharia) cus everyone is sticking with their own sects.
* Most countries are fine playing halfy-salafis: oh sure you cannot eat pork but that won't stop me opening a brothel or pub! (hypocritical)
* Mucho corruption. Pakistan has been corrupt since day one. Afghanistan keeps getting attacked (everytime it tries to be Islamic it causes outrage), same with palestine (though, they just get bombed). Saudi? Pssha they make up their own rules.

Surely there is only one sharia law and only one true version of it and that must be the same for every country and evry people?
That is the ideal and with a caliphate (essentially, moderators of an Islamic state) can be achieved. Until then, you will get halfy-salafis or psuedo islamic/hybrid versions of sharia.
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Azy
03-22-2009, 09:36 PM
I have a feeling some elements of Shari'a would be in contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and as such it would not really 'mesh' well with the 21st century.
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KAding
03-22-2009, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Me too; as I said none of the Muslim countries are rushing to adopt it, there must be a reason.
To be honest, I think it because a large proportion of Muslims are what people here call "Munafiq" or, to use an American phrase, MINO (Muslim in Name Only). Those who oppose Sha'ria law in Muslim-majority countries are mostly I think so called "secular Muslims", so non-practising Muslims. I believe there are a lot more of those than you'd think from looking at the statistics.
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KAding
03-22-2009, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I have a feeling some elements of Shari'a would be in contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and as such it would not really 'mesh' well with the 21st century.
Absolutely, but that only goes to show the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" in reality isn't all that "Universal", doesn't it ;). Lets not forget that this declaration was signed at the height of European/Western dominance.
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Amadeus85
03-22-2009, 09:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I do want Shari'ah law. Not in Britain though.
Why so?
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Azy
03-22-2009, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Absolutely, but that only goes to show the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" in reality isn't all that "Universal", doesn't it ;). Lets not forget that this declaration was signed at the height of European/Western dominance.
Maybe not Universal in the truest sense, but 192 of the 203 existing states are members of the United Nations and as such I would imagine they're expected to uphold the rules.

Whether there was 'Western' dominance or not, are we expected to believe that to Muslims this is more important than the authority of almighty God?
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Thinker
03-22-2009, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Nope. Man cannot divorce wife for ''no reason''. It wouldn't fly in an Islamic court.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/8034/#14

Divorce: Under sharia, the husband has the unilateral right to divorce his wife without cause. He can accomplish this by uttering the phrase "I divorce you" three times over the course of three months. If he does divorce her, he must pay her a sum of money agreed to before the wedding in the marriage contract and permit her to keep her dowry, Powers says. Classicalsharia lays out very limited conditions under which a woman can divorce a man--he must be infertile at the time of marriage; insane; or have leprosy or another contagious skin disease. Most Islamic nations, including Egypt and Iran, now allow women to sue for divorce for many other reasons, including the failure to provide financial support.

Custody: In a divorce, the children traditionally belong to the father, but the mother has the right to care for them while they are young, Powers says. The age at which a mother loses custody differs from nation to nation. In Iran, the mother's custody ends at seven for boys and girls; in Pakistan, it's seven for boys and puberty for girls. Many nations, however, allow courts to extend the mother's custody if it is deemed in the child's interest.

Still trying to find out how the wealth is divided on divorce, this article seems to be saying that it's divided according to the pre-nup?
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KAding
03-22-2009, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Maybe not Universal in the truest sense, but 192 of the 203 existing states are members of the United Nations and as such I would imagine they're expected to uphold the rules.

Whether there was 'Western' dominance or not, are we expected to believe that to Muslims this is more important than the authority of almighty God?
I suspect it would differ from Muslim to Muslim. Like it has been pointed out, most Muslim states are not Islamic states, so whether they have or haven't signed this declaration might not actually tell us much about its compatibility with Islam. But it does seem to me that there are at least a couple of articles in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) that directly contradict Islam.

From a somewhat 'fundamentalist' Fatwa website:
http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/97827/Universal%20rights
<snip>
To sum up what these organizations promote: it is that man should be able to do whatever he wants, no matter how perverse. They support lesbians, homosexuals and bisexuals, and religious deviance. They regard it as a human right to disbelieve in whatever religions one wants and to express one’s opinion – even about the Prophets – without any fear or shame, and they also support the liberation of woman from the control of her father, husband or religion.
<snip>
Maybe some Muslims here could comment on whether the the UDHR can be compatible with Islam? Clearly this sheik doesn't think so. But I'm not sure how representative he is.

He does seem to have a point though with Article 18 (freedom to change religion) and Article 2 (no discrimination based on religion).
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alcurad
03-22-2009, 10:14 PM
men divorcing without reason and custody 'traditionally' belonging to the father, these are not part of the religion, but part of the traditions and cultures where muslims live/d.
the UDHR is quite 'compatible' with Islam, whatever compatible means. and we are not supposed to have a religious caste, so it doesn't matter what sheikh/mullah etc said, as in we don't acknowledge such positions as authoritative, only the qur'an and the prophet's implementation of it are Islam, any other is what people understood and said about it, but not synonymous with it.
as for abu bakrah and the alleged hadeeth of his:no people shall etc, abu bakrah didn't want to join our mother Ai'shah's army so he said that. itis not correct to use it even if the prophet had said it, it was said on a particular occasion, not to mention that several of the most respected sahabah did infarct join her, they didn't know the prophet's edict on such matters?
he is not one of the prominent companions of the prophet anyway, so it doesn't matter either way.

I see that this is turning into a fest for throwing allegations and what have you, copying and pasting are quite easy, if you want to know what Islam says about read the qur'an, study the hadeeth and have some knowledge about the different sects and opinions that arose, projecting one or two sects or some tribal code of conduct as Islam itself are indicators that you are not even trying,,
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doorster
03-22-2009, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
men divorcing without reason and custody 'traditionally' belonging to the father, these are not part of the religion, but part of the traditions and cultures where muslims live/d.
the UDHR is quite 'compatible' with Islam, whatever compatible means. and we are not supposed to have a religious caste, so it doesn't matter what sheikh/mullah etc said, as in we don't aknowledge such positions as authoritative, only the qur'an and the prophet's implementation of it are Islam, any other is what people understood and said about it, but not synonymous with it.
as for abu bakrah and the alleged hadeeth of his:no people shall etc, abu bakrah didn't want to join our mother Ai'shah's army, neither did he want to join Ali,
so he said that. he is neither one of the prominent companions of the prophet, so it doesn't matter either way.
:thumbs_up
if you want to know what Islam says about read the qur'an, study the hadeeth and have some knowledge about the different sects and opinions that arose, projecting one or two sects or some tribal code of conduct as Islam itself are indicators that you are not even trying,,
:thumbs_up:thumbs_up
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Zafran
03-22-2009, 10:28 PM
Salaam

first of all sahria it self is a diverse system of rule. Clearly in Islamic history different schools of thought developed trying to implement sharia.

The muslims themselves have to stop going to other systems and actually invest time and effort with the right intentions to figure out how Islamic law should fit wih Fiqh.
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KAding
03-22-2009, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
the UDHR is quite 'compatible' with Islam, whatever compatible means. and we are not supposed to have a religious caste, so it doesn't matter what sheikh/mullah etc said, as in we don't acknowledge such positions as authoritative, only the qur'an and the prophet's implementation of it are Islam, any other is what people understood and said about it, but not synonymous with it.
Interesting. Who would interpret Islamic law in your opinion? Or rather who would 'acknowledge as authoritative' positions taken by scholars?

Is this where democracy has a place in an Islamic state? If you want to base law on it you'll have to make a collective decision on what is 'authoritative' after all. Should it be the collective of Muslims that decide what interpretations of Islam to 'acknowledge'? It seems that is what you are implying when you say "if we don't acknowledge such positions as authoritative". Is 'we' all Muslims?

Or do you simply not accept that Islam needs 'interpretation'?
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alcurad
03-22-2009, 11:17 PM
everyone interprets, the collective will of the ummah is indeed what decides, bravo for noticing:)
everyone interpreted before and colored islam as their own culture etc, we have a duty to re-interpret and remove any and all insertions.
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KAding
03-22-2009, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
everyone interprets, the collective will of the ummah is indeed what decides, bravo for noticing:)
everyone interpreted before and colored islam as their own culture etc, we have a duty to re-interpret and remove any and all insertions.
May I forward to you a question from the wise Osman, which he asked me several weeks ago:
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Would you agree that it is essential to have a sound knowledge of Qur'anic Arabic and to have studied in detail Prophet Muhammad's life (for context) before deciding that you can interpret the Qur'an?
In other words, is it reasonable to expect from a 'laymen' (read:non-scholar) to truly understand Islam and the message of the Prophet?
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aamirsaab
03-22-2009, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Could you rpovide evidence that it's for business matters only...
Sura 2, verse 282. It's a long verse so I haven't pasted it here.

You're terribly misinformed. There have been female heads of state in Ireland, Finland, New Zealand, Israel, Bangladesh to name a few. What about queen Elizabeth I and queen Victoria? Were the eras they ruled in the most prosperous in the entire history of the British Isles?
First off, I was being hypothetical in relation to if women are truly not allowed as head of state. Secondly, I said Modern day western countries (by this I meant uk and us...).

the practical reasons you mentioned, apart from pregnancy, but we could rpevent that with mandatory birth control for female leaders,
Wouldn't that be preventing women from doing something tho? I.e they'd be forced to sacrifice that aspect in order to lead?

are not a sufficient reason to abn them from being heads of states.
Perhaps but they were just my opinions on the matter anyway - not the Islamic perspective.

Why is it bs?
Sex changes (seriously, why?!), alcohol abuse, abortion, divorce rates, knife crime, gang wars, general breakdown of social norms - all simply because it's ''my right!''. Mainly to do with ethics but they all have an impact on society because they are NOT practical. Not every single thing is impractical but generally those that differ between the two systems tend not be practical.

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I have a feeling some elements of Shari'a would be in contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and as such it would not really 'mesh' well with the 21st century.
In terms of criminal law, yes (though some would argue that the punishment in those cases could be adapted to suit the social norms i.e. no capital punishment). In terms of everything else, however, it's fair game :).
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alcurad
03-23-2009, 01:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
May I forward to you a question from the wise Osman, which he asked me several weeks ago:


In other words, is it reasonable to expect from a 'laymen' (read:non-scholar) to truly understand Islam and the message of the Prophet?
it is expected that all will try to learn and understand, Islam is not so complicated, any claims as such-only scholars allowed to understand- are claims to occult knowledge, or special understanding only they are granted, as you can see this is not in agreement with the general premise of Islam being the final religion for all mankind.

I'm not a scholar, as in it is not my job, nor have I spent most of my time on religious studies although I have spent much time and effort, still I can reach my own conclusions about much of what is called fiqh and tafseer/interpretation as well as the earlier history of islam, there is a plethora of views and studies out there, and anyone sincerely trying to learn, will be able to do so without any help from scholars and the like.
most of the qur'an is open to interpretation, with the exception of verses such as:"Say: He, Allah, is One. Allah is He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten; And none is like Him".
in this case the meaning is pretty straight forward, but the general instructions that could be concluded are left to us, only the tradition of acceptance has been somewhat undermined now as before for-mostly- political ends.
for example the view that democracy per se is somehow against Islam, as well as the general low status of women and so on, these are the products not of the religion, this is quite clear to any who would bother enough to actually look at what the qur'an says about such matters, as well as how the prophet implemented it, but what happens is that some evidence that seems too dangerous is discarded, as some times happens the sects/mathahib differ on some opinion, then start bringing equally valid yet equally contradictory 'evidence',,
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Uthman
03-23-2009, 06:56 AM
Hi Aaron85,

And how be you? :)
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I do want Shari'ah law. Not in Britain though.
Why so?
Quite simply, I don't think it would make sense to implement Shari'ah law on a state level where there is a Non-Muslim majority.

Regards
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Uthman
03-23-2009, 07:00 AM
Hi Thinker,
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
as I said none of the Muslim countries are rushing to adopt it, there must be a reason.
In addition to what aamirsaab said, I can also say that from an economic perspective, the Shari'ah is probably too ethical for their liking since it forbids 'Riba (usury/interest). For Saudi Arabia, Shari'ah would also mean having to get rid of their monarchy.

Regards
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Uthman
03-23-2009, 08:10 AM
Hi KAding,
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I'm guessing there are ways to implement Islamic laws with a degree of moderation that would make it compatible with modern society.
A degree of moderation? Please elaborate! I would have thought that if Shari'ah is moderated, then it is no longer Shari'ah, no?

Regards
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 08:48 AM
There are 53 posts in this thread from male members and 1 post from a female member, what does that tell us? Is it likely that female members are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?

I still haven't had an answer to my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
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Uthman
03-23-2009, 09:09 AM
Thinker, please take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0E06...eature=related
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-23-2009, 01:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
There are 53 posts in this thread from male members and 1 post from a female member, what does that tell us? Is it likely that female members are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?

I still haven't had an answer to my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
You like to make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Perhaps what is more likely, is that the number of males who are active in the World Affairs section outnumber the females?

I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
What real Muslim, male or female, would not want to live under true Sharee'ah? This statement of yours seems to suggest that 'educated female Muslim[s]' would rather live under man-made democratic laws than under the Laws of Allaah Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala. The very fact that these women are Muslim, would necessitate that they believe the Laws of Allaah are perfect and are far superior to any other Law. Islaam itself means to yield to Allaah with submission, and to submit to Him with Tawheed (Islaamic monotheism). And from Tawheed is to believe that Allaah's Laws are superior to any other Law, and He alone has the right to rule.

So YES, as an 'educated female Muslim', I would love to live in a society that is being governed by the Laws of Allaah, and would prefer anything closer to that than Western Democracy.
Reply

akulion
03-23-2009, 01:32 PM
I think it is important to understand what Sharia Law is rather than just assume that the law practiced by certain individuals, who call it by that name, makes it the sharia law.

There are various regimes around the world which practice different laws and if it happens to have a fragment of Islam in it, suddenly it becomes sharia law.

However Sharia law is not unfair to anyone, since under it the following are guaranteed:

- Protection for the masses, including minorities
- Protection from criminals under penal law, i.e. murderers, rapists, thieves, etc
- Social welfare through the Zakah system to help people without support/jobs
- Medical care for all citizens, life is valued above all things in Islam
- Freedom of speech, as long as not used to offend others
- Freedom of religion, apostasy does not hold the death sentence as popularly believed
- Education for both men and women
- Protection against child abuse, spousal abuse and abuse of other kinds including verbal
- Freedom of choice, in terms of marriage and religion as well.

And these are only some of the things which Islam laid the laws for over 1500 years ago.
If you were to study the Islamic empire which existed for over a 1000 year, surely you will come across all of these elements. These are the rights as given by Islam to the people of the Earth. (I have only mentioned some)

So if you see any regime in the world doing weird things in the name of Islam, please know that it is not from Islam itself, but rather it is from their own minds and they are just labeling it falsely.

Just my 2 cents, hope it helps someone who may come to read it.

Bro Aku
Reply

NIKKY
03-23-2009, 01:37 PM
Salaam,
Evn i ws finfing no sisers have commentd on dis topic...bt i dnt fink its cuz dey don’t no wat dey r entitld 2, i personally didn’t comment cuz i feel all da questions askd wer vri well answrd by da muslim brothers..especially by aamirsaab...
Women get less inheritance..because she an keep it for herself,she is nt obliged 2 provide for da family, the male of the family provide, dats y male gt mo...so women r beta of der!
If women choose 2 wok..which dey r allowd...she keeps her salary,if she wishes 2 pay for household expenses den she cn..she duznt have 2 if she don’t want 2...so women r beta of again!
as far as i no at a tym of divorce women keep al dat belongs 2 dem and i belive she duz gt maintenance.....not dat bad eh..?

" And for divorced women, maintenance (should be provided) on reasonable (scale). This is a duty on Al-Mutaqeen'
Reply

YusufNoor
03-23-2009, 01:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faizah
You like to make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Perhaps what is more likely, is that the number of males who are active in the World Affairs section outnumber the females?



What real Muslim, male or female, would not want to live under true Sharee'ah? This statement of yours seems to suggest that 'educated female Muslim[s]' would rather live under man-made democratic laws than under the Laws of Allaah Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala. The very fact that these women are Muslim, would necessitate that they believe the Laws of Allaah are perfect and are far superior to any other Law. Islaam itself means to yield to Allaah with submission, and to submit to Him with Tawheed (Islaamic monotheism). And from Tawheed is to believe that Allaah's Laws are superior to any other Law, and He alone has the right to rule.

So YES, as an 'educated female Muslim', I would love to live in a society that is being governed by the Laws of Allaah, and would prefer anything closer to that than Western Democracy.
:sl:

Alhumdulillah, the Sister gave the most precise answer!

I still haven't had an answer to my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
under the Shariah, the woman's closest male relative would be REQUIRED to support her, thus making all of your concerns moot.

:w:
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~Taalibah~
03-23-2009, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
http://www.zeenews.com/southasia/200...15537news.html

I have formed the view that a lot of Muslims living in the west would like to be governed by sharia law. In fact I seem to recall calls from some Muslims in the UK to be allowed to govern themselves by sharia law. Watching TV this morning and saw a report of the edict issued by the SAWT valley Taliban to judges and lawyers ordering them not to attend court telling them there is no place for them in sharia law (see above link) and I wondered how it would work in a non-tribal society. I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society? It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge. Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam. Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law. I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
Really? Well you believe wrong. i'm muslim, i'm female, i'm living in 21centuary and i'm educated- enough to realize that The Almighty's Divine Law stands forever.
He created us, know what is best for us and sent the last Prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) with His law, and did not change it, therefore it still stands.
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Sura 2, verse 282. It's a long verse so I haven't pasted it here.

What about this?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
First off, I was being hypothetical in relation to if women are truly not allowed as head of state. Secondly, I said Modern day western countries (by this I meant uk and us...).
Hmmmm
Wouldn't that be preventing women from doing something tho? I.e they'd be forced to sacrifice that aspect in order to lead?
what's wrong with that?
Perhaps but they were just my opinions on the matter anyway - not the Islamic perspective.
As you can see from the previous hadith, women having a defficient mind does seem to be the Islamic perspective...
Sex changes (seriously, why?!), Because several people feel they are trapped in their own bodies and no therapy has helpd them alcohol abuse, ok, but thats not a serious problem and you could say the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, abortion, How? I though Islam allows abortion. Anyway, countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, ones which you don't seem to consider modern western countries, have very low abortion rates.divorce rates, How? knife crime, gang wars, general breakdown of social norms - all simply because it's ''my right!''Knife crimes and gang crimes are illegal and are not a product of liberal politics, more to do with immigration. Mainly to do with ethics but they all have an impact on society because they are NOT practical. Not every single thing is impractical but generally those that differ between the two systems tend not be practical
It's your view they're not practical, I think they are. You seem to believe Islam is entirely practical, I think differently.
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Amat Allah
03-23-2009, 03:12 PM
if Islam is unjust with women then please would u tell me why do many non muslim women became muslims ??

laa ilaha illa Allah
Reply

Muhaba
03-23-2009, 03:31 PM
The verse about witnesses doesn't at all show that women have lower intelligence or memory than men. because in the verse God doesn't say that the man is there to remind the women if they forget/make a mistake; one woman will remind the other. if the belief was that women's intelligence is lower, it would've said that the man was there to remind the women. (everybody forgets. additionally, one woman would provide support for the other.)
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 03:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
The verse about witnesses doesn't at all show that women have lower intelligence or memory than men. because in the verse God doesn't say that the man is there to remind the women if they forget/make a mistake; one woman will remind the other. if the belief was that women's intelligence is lower, it would've said that the man was there to remind the women. (everybody forgets. additionally, one woman would provide support for the other.)
Why are men extempt from the same requirement? Like you said, everyone forgets, men to, so why does a man not require a man to remember him?
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S_87
03-23-2009, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
There are 53 posts in this thread from male members and 1 post from a female member, what does that tell us? Is it likely that female members are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?

I still haven't had an answer to my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
im a female and dont have a slightest problem with any aspect of the shariah. i may have problems with people twisting texts to suit their needs- which happens on both sides btw but as for what is authentic islamic shariah- it is the only totally fair and just rule to both men and women.

Alhumdulillah
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aamirsaab
03-23-2009, 04:08 PM
What about this?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
Not going to get into hadiths - that's a whole different ball game.

...
what's wrong with that?
Either way you look at it, her position gets compromised. If she accepts leader role, you say she cannot have a child during that term. If she wants a child (or is pregnant), she cannot run for head of state (due to fact she'd be off duty for a year!) So she gets limited each way (in contrast, the male doesn't get compromised to such an extent). Again tho, this isn't the islamic perspective on the matter - just my opinion.

..Because several people feel they are trapped in their own bodies and no therapy has helpd them alcohol abuse, ok, but thats not a serious problem and you could say the advantages outweigh the disadvantages...
As I said, it was mainly to do with ethics and the break down of social norms. If a social norm encourages suicide and hedonistic life styles, I don't see how that can be championed in light of a 1400 year old system that encourages the opposite (and is therefore BETTER for society on the whole).

It's your view they're not practical, I think they are. You seem to believe Islam is entirely practical, I think differently.
Then it is a stalemate in terms of matter of opinion - which is fine since we're being hypothetical about the whole thing anyhow (no point in losing hair over the matter!) and our view points are ultimately meaningless. Unless one of you lot want me to run for president :D

I still believe sharia has modern western law beat overall though since the emphasis is on society rather than the individual (note; this isn't because of some blind loyalty shenanigans though, rather I agree with the overall goal set by sharia: keep society running through basic and just principles). But at the end of the day: c'est la vie.
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akulion
03-23-2009, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Why are men extempt from the same requirement? Like you said, everyone forgets, men to, so why does a man not require a man to remember him?
Please refer to this thread for the discussion of that topic => women intellectually deficient?
thanks
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Either way you look at it, her position gets compromised. If she accepts leader role, you say she cannot have a child during that term. If she wants a child (or is pregnant), she cannot run for head of state (due to fact she'd be off duty for a year!) So she gets limited each way (in contrast, the male doesn't get compromised to such an extent). Again tho, this isn't the islamic perspective on the matter - just my opinion.
And not being allowed to run for president is not a limitation?
You limit someone so they wouldn't get limited?
[QUOTE]
As I said, it was mainly to do with ethics and the break down of social norms. If a social norm encourages suicide and hedonistic life styles, I don't see how that can be championed in light of a 1400 year old system that encourages the opposite (and is therefore BETTER for society on the whole).
Then it is a stalemate in terms of matter of opinion - which is fine since we're being hypothetical about the whole thing anyhow (no point in losing hair over the matter!) and our view points are ultimately meaningless. Unless one of you lot want me to run for president :D
I don't knwo I think you very much appreciate our society's position on individual rights, you're a Muslim
I still believe sharia has modern western law beat overall though since the emphasis is on society rather than the individual (note; this isn't because of some blind loyalty shenanigans though, rather I agree with the overall goal set by sharia: keep society running through basic and just principles). But at the end of the day: c'est la vie.
I thinky ou very much appreciate the western emphasis on the individual, though ou may not know it, but after all, it is that very emphasis on the individual that lets you build mosques where ever you want, preach your faith to the rest of the population, live your life openly as Muslim and whatever nationality you belong to, which would be impossible for a non Muslim in an Islamic state.
I'm just not so much into the idea of discriminating some in order to keep the society running smoothly. With that said, the western society is running quite smoothly with its indivivual rigths and all that crap.
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
Please refer to this thread for the discussion of that topic => women intellectually deficient?
thanks
Aamir already refered me to your post and we've discussed it and its flaws.
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faizah
You like to make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Perhaps what is more likely, is that the number of males who are active in the World Affairs section outnumber the females?

What real Muslim, male or female, would not want to live under true Sharee'ah? This statement of yours seems to suggest that 'educated female Muslim[s]' would rather live under man-made democratic laws than under the Laws of Allaah Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala. The very fact that these women are Muslim, would necessitate that they believe the Laws of Allaah are perfect and are far superior to any other Law. Islaam itself means to yield to Allaah with submission, and to submit to Him with Tawheed (Islaamic monotheism). And from Tawheed is to believe that Allaah's Laws are superior to any other Law, and He alone has the right to rule.

So YES, as an 'educated female Muslim', I would love to live in a society that is being governed by the Laws of Allaah, and would prefer anything closer to that than Western Democracy.
Thank you for your reply.

Can I know which country you are living in?

Could you answer my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
Reply

Zafran
03-23-2009, 05:28 PM
salaam

Try to build a mosque near a racist area and you'll see how easy it is to build a mosque - even the mosque in London is having problems.

Try to preach Islam to a racist area and you'll see the reactions - not very nice.
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NIKKY
Salaam,
Evn i ws finfing no sisers have commentd on dis topic...bt i dnt fink its cuz dey don’t no wat dey r entitld 2, i personally didn’t comment cuz i feel all da questions askd wer vri well answrd by da muslim brothers..especially by aamirsaab...
Women get less inheritance..because she an keep it for herself,she is nt obliged 2 provide for da family, the male of the family provide, dats y male gt mo...so women r beta of der!
If women choose 2 wok..which dey r allowd...she keeps her salary,if she wishes 2 pay for household expenses den she cn..she duznt have 2 if she don’t want 2...so women r beta of again!
as far as i no at a tym of divorce women keep al dat belongs 2 dem and i belive she duz gt maintenance.....not dat bad eh..?

" And for divorced women, maintenance (should be provided) on reasonable (scale). This is a duty on Al-Mutaqeen'
Thank you for trying to answer my question but, sorry, I can’t understand what you’re saying.:?:?
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Thank you for your reply.

Can I know which country you are living in?

Could you answer my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
This has been explained thouroughly , women do get less, but are not expected to pay bills.
Of course, this is still dixtriminatory, not only to women but to men as well.
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Uthman
03-23-2009, 05:41 PM
:sl: akhee akulion,
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
However Sharia law is not unfair to anyone, since under it the following are guaranteed:

- Protection for the masses, including minorities
- Protection from criminals under penal law, i.e. murderers, rapists, thieves, etc
- Social welfare through the Zakah system to help people without support/jobs
- Medical care for all citizens, life is valued above all things in Islam
- Freedom of speech, as long as not used to offend others
- Freedom of religion, apostasy does not hold the death sentence as popularly believed
- Education for both men and women
- Protection against child abuse, spousal abuse and abuse of other kinds including verbal
- Freedom of choice, in terms of marriage and religion as well.
I agree with your post, but I'm not sure about the apostasy part which I highlighted. As far as I am aware, the death penalty applies to those who had faked a conversion to Islam in order to undermine the Muslim community from within and also to those who leave Islam in order to support opposing forces against the Islamic state (aka treason). This was explained by Ansar Al-'Adl in this thread.

:w:
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aamirsaab
03-23-2009, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
...
Of course, this is still dixtriminatory, not only to women but to men as well.
Which has also been explained. The difference between the UK/US and sharia law is this:
* one completely ignores gender roles
* one doesn't.

Islam recognises that there are differences between men and women. Historically, pscyhologically and sociologically men are considered to be the more dominant (in terms of responsibility at least) of the sexes. Sharia doesn't aim for equality as such but it does aim for justice through EQUITY. That's what critics don't understand about sharia: equity not equality.

For simplicity, take heed of the following analogy:

A snickers bar is different to a mars - but they're both classified as chocolate bars; the only real difference is one has nuts, the other doesn't.
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Uthman
03-23-2009, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
For simplicity, take heed of the following analogy:

A snickers bar is different to a mars - but they're both classified as chocolate bars; the only real difference is one has nuts, the other doesn't.
LOL...thanks for that...:X
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Which has also been explained. The difference between the UK/US and sharia law is this:
* one completely ignores gender roles
* one doesn't.

Islam recognises that there are differences between men and women. Historically, pscyhologically and sociologically men are considered to be the more dominant (in terms of responsibility at least) of the sexes. Sharia doesn't aim for equality as such but it does aim for justice through EQUITY.

For simplicity, take heed of the following analogy:

A snickers bar is different to a mars - but they're both classified as chocolate bars; one has nuts, the other doesn't.
:D
But for the sake of this conversation, I say a snickers bar is as good the mars bar. Who's right then?
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
This has been explained thouroughly , women do get less, but are not expected to pay bills.
Of course, this is still dixtriminatory, not only to women but to men as well.
The post from Nikky appears to indicate that wives get less but I presume that there's a formula somewhere and I'd like to know what it is. If you know where I can read it - point me to it>
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 06:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The post from Nikky appears to indicate that wives get less but I presume that there's a formula somewhere and I'd like to know what it is. If you know where I can read it - point me to it>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic..._jurisprudence
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Cabdullahi
03-23-2009, 07:06 PM
before even having a good and harmonious discussion,the person you're having it with must be an open minded person,a person who is not engulfed by misconceptions.....when this ignorance will end i dont know ....they called us the mohammedans in the 20th century simply because they stupildy thought that mohammed was our divine lord,because of their false belief that christ was their lord and thus calling themselves christians they thought it also applied to us....mohammed is a figure we cherish so we must be the worshippers of mohammed...thus giving us the name mohammaedans......,but now there's a new batch of misconceptions b4 christianity went through reformation,women werent allowed to speak in the churches,they had to veil themselves and the women was the property of her husband and so on, the list of shinnanigans is as long as elephant trunks....the westerner implemented these injustices on their women and after the reformation it has all changed and so when they see a muslim man with his veiled wife...
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Cabdullahi
03-23-2009, 07:11 PM
....they think we are following the same steps of backwardness and so we need a reform...but they say this with know knowledge of islam......................... 'if the westerner was in darkness b4 then so are we' thats how they think........its easier to come to an understanding and an agreement if ye read the scriptures
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Cabdullahi
03-23-2009, 07:14 PM
sorry guys im not using a computer and im having difficulties with using the controller pad of the ps3
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Cabdullahi
03-23-2009, 07:19 PM
the thread starter has relentless hatred for the shariah law its obvious he doesnt want discussion maybe im wrong but the thread title gives it away....why you may ask? we are on an islamic forum and we have this great ''thinker'' asking a muslim crowd a sarcastic question....'the shariah....do you 'REALLY' want it?'...what kind of question is that we are muslims and we believe shariah to be the divine law given to us by allah...so why ask a muslim do your REALLY want it? it doesnt make sense......or maybe im just chatting it? i dont know
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Mysterious Uk
03-23-2009, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by J.U.N.I.O.R
the thread starter has relentless hatred for the shariah law its obvious he doesnt want discussion maybe im wrong but the thread title gives it away....why you may ask? we are on an islamic forum and we have this great ''thinker'' asking a muslim crowd a sarcastic question....'the shariah....do you 'REALLY' want it?'...what kind of question is that we are muslims and we believe shariah to be the divine law given to us by allah...so why ask a muslim do your REALLY want it? it doesnt make sense......or maybe im just chatting it? i dont know
Yes, the intentions of the thread starter doesnt sound too good.
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 07:42 PM
Although you may be a Muslim living in a country which is not governed by sharia law, would it be right that a good Muslim should apply the sharia law to themsleves where they can? . . . . . . . . .

From what I have read it appears that men can divorce their wives at will and without reason whereas women cannot divorce their husbands without the permission of the courts and they are unlikley to grant permission unless the husband contravenes Islamic teachings.

After a wife is divorced she can keep her dowry and the children until the are ‘weaned’ and the husband must support the child during the weaning period. After the child is weaned it would normally go to the husband.

After that the wife is not entitled to half the assets, any of her husbands salary and other earnings or pension.

If that is correct do you believe that a good Muslim women living in a country which is not governed by sharia law should volunteer (upon divorce) only to take what the sharia law entitles her to? To take it further, would she be contravening Islam by not applying sharia law to what she take upon divorce?
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mysterious Uk
Yes, the intentions of the thread starter doesnt sound too good.
Why do you question my intentions? My initial question was simple, I could not believe that anyone would want to be governed as the taliban govern the people in the areas they control. I got lots of replies saying that they would but they were all from men. So I asked what do the women think. How, from that, do you gleen that I have questionable intent? Do you believe that we shouldn't ask questions that are difficult to explain?

Mysterious UK . . . . . . you are living in the UK, if you divorce from your husband you are entitled to the children and at least 50% of everything, if that unfortunate situation befalls you will you be refusing 50% and just taking your dowry?.
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aadil77
03-23-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
From what I have read it appears that men can divorce their wives at will and without reason whereas women cannot divorce their husbands without the permission of the courts and they are unlikley to grant permission unless the husband contravenes Islamic teachings.

Where did you read that?

After a wife is divorced she can keep her dowry and the children until the are ‘weaned’ and the husband must support the child during the weaning period. After the child is weaned it would normally go to the husband.

So? When the child grows up it can choose who to stay with. In the UK the mother gains custody is that fair on the husband?

After that the wife is not entitled to half the assets, any of her husbands salary and other earnings or pension.

Why would she be? They have no relationship, Islamically a womens brothers, father, sons, uncles etc should provide for her if she is single

Read all the other posts thinker
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aadil77
03-23-2009, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Why do you question my intentions? My initial question was simple, I could not believe that anyone would want to be governed as the taliban govern the people in the areas they control. I got lots of replies saying that they would but they were all from men. So I asked what do the women think. How, from that, do you gleen that I have questionable intent? Do you believe that we shouldn't ask questions that are difficult to explain?

Mysterious UK . . . . . . you are living in the UK, if you divorce from your husband you are entitled to the children and at least 50% of everything, if that unfortunate situation befalls you will you be refusing 50% and just taking your dowry?.
You're clearly twisting things to suit yourself, when did anyone say they wanted to be governed the way the taliban do?
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Amat Allah
03-23-2009, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amat Allah
if Islam is unjust with women then please would u tell me why do many non muslim women became muslims ??

laa ilaha illa Allah
would u please answer??
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 08:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amat Allah
would u please answer??
After many years of trying I am still trying to understand women - why do women stay with men who beat them?
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
You're clearly twisting things to suit yourself, when did anyone say they wanted to be governed the way the taliban do?
The taliban is the only example I can see of total sharia law - are you suggesting that the taliban are not operating sharia law?
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Muezzin
03-23-2009, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
After many years of trying I am still trying to understand women - why do women stay with men who beat them?
Anyone who thinks Muslim women are oppressed, abused and generally forced into mousy subordination obviously hasn't met any women in my family.
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alcurad
03-23-2009, 08:41 PM
the taliban operate under their own tribal code more than shari'a,,
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 08:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
After that the wife is not entitled to half the assets, any of her husbands salary and other earnings or pension.

Why would she be? They have no relationship, Islamically a womens brothers, father, sons, uncles etc should provide for her if she is single


I’m with you, recite the talaq three times and kick her out without a penny – sounds fair to me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaq_(Nikah)
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Thinker
03-23-2009, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
the taliban operate under their own tribal code more than shari'a,,
So why isn't the Muslim world denouncing them as herotics?
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Cabdullahi
03-23-2009, 08:46 PM
so what are you implying ? that western women become muslims and stay with a religion that beats their freedom and liberation senseless ??? if you want to fully understand islam and its laws you have to take a holistic approach and not seperate small bits while analyzing with your preconditioned brain filled with misconceptions...which will only lead you to do false analysis that would then make you bite your finger nails in agitation ''oh!! the taleban...:('
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aadil77
03-23-2009, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The taliban is the only example I can see of total sharia law - are you suggesting that the taliban are not operating sharia law?
Have you read any of the posts in this thread or have you just gone through it blindly making your own mind up. Just because the taliban is the only example you see don't mean we all agree with it. People here want sharia, did any one say they wanted the talibans version of it?

Your making us repeat things that have already been discussed.

Your twisting peoples views and generalising.

I think this thread should be closed, clearly Mr thinker likes making his own judgements on shariah without taking other views onboard
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Chuck
03-23-2009, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Your twisting peoples views and generalising.
Perhaps that is the reason he/she is here?
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aadil77
03-23-2009, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Perhaps that is the reason he/she is here?
That IS why he is here, he probably can't understand why theres so many muslims in his own country, women especially, who apparantly get married to get beaten by their husbands
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Muezzin
03-23-2009, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I’m with you, recite the talaq three times and kick her out without a penny – sounds fair to me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaq_(Nikah)
In the event of a divorce, each partner leaves with what they brought to the marriage. Literally. Anything they owned, personally, at the time of the marriage, anything that was gifted to them, personally, at the time of the marriage, anything they earned, personally, at the time of the marriage, is theirs.

And the custody of any children tends to be awarded to the mother.

So it's inaccurate (and frankly unfair) to say that in the unfortunate event of a divorce you 'kick her out without a penny'. You don't. You don't take what's hers, and she doesn't take what's yours.

Also, the wife can file for divorce. It's not only the man that has that power, as you claim.

If people do not like this state of affairs, they should not rush into marriage in the first place. Or better yet, they should get a pre-nuptial agreement. Just in case.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
My initial question was simple, I could not believe that anyone would want to be governed as the taliban govern the people in the areas they control. I
Funny, I thought your intial question was the title of this thread: 'Sharia law - do you really want it?' No qualifiers about the Taliban there.

But, no, I would not want some savage version that misunderstands or distorts the true spirit of Sharia law.
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Zafran
03-23-2009, 10:30 PM
salaam

so we are trying got figure out sharia through wikipedia.........

peace
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جوري
03-23-2009, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
List western freedoms to me that are not found under shari'a law?
Let's hear your reasons for 'denouncing' 'such a regime'?

all the best
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Muezzin
03-23-2009, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I have a feeling some elements of Shari'a would be in contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and as such it would not really 'mesh' well with the 21st century.
Which elements?

Certain violent punishments?

The same certain violent punishments that, per true Islamic teachings, would extremely rarely be administered due to the intentionally difficult-to-satisfy criteria to be satisfied before they can be used?

A lot of people don't really know that the spirit of Sharia, in its true form, is not to hunt people down and flog or stone or kill them - its punishments are scary as a deterrent. Actually receiving one depends on the prosecution satisfying extremely strict rules of evidence, such that in practice, very few violent punishments (such as stoning or amputation) would actually be administered.

But do people criticise it on this front? Do they say, cynically, 'Oh, people only obey the law out of fear'? No. They ignorantly and incorrectly say things to the effect of 'OMFG, in Sharia, you need four witnesses to a rape before it's prosecuted!!11one'

Rape does not require four witnesses to be prosecuted.

It's actually four witnesses for adultery. The actual, sexual act. In explicit detail.

And certain critics of Islam think they're clever?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-23-2009, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
After many years of trying I am still trying to understand women - why do women stay with men who beat them?
The beating isn't what you think it is. The 'hitting' referred to in Quran isn't punching, nor kicking, nor slapping or even a plain ol' push. It's a tap on the wrist to show disapproval, that's all.

Read the verses before and the verses after and it'll make much more sense.

In the Quran in Chapter 4 (chapter called An-Nisa) verse 34, it says "And beat them".

Yusuf Estes clears it up in a short and simple reply.

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EDIT:

Infact, Prohet Muhammad (saaws) said that the best amongst you (muslims) are those who are best to his wives.
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Muezzin
03-23-2009, 10:48 PM
I'd just like to go on record as saying that if my future significant other is ever intentionally physically hurt by myself, I give her full permission to punch me in the face and kick me out of the house.

Actually, I wouldn't want to marry the type of woman that needs permission to do such a naturally right thing in the first place.

Men who hurt their wives have no protection under the law, Islamic or otherwise.
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جوري
03-23-2009, 10:51 PM
This is for "whatisthepoint' and was addressed here earlier by Ansar Al' Adl of the testimony of women


3. WOMEN ARE DEFICIENT AS WITNESSES

Comment: The true title of this section should be: “Limitations to a woman's testimony.”
The testimony of the woman is not equal to that of the man. Her testimony is half the testimony of the man with regard to financial matters. The Qur'an states,
"And call in to witness two witnesses, men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witness as you approve of, that if one woman errs the other will remind her."[19]
19. The Qur'an, 2: 282.

Comment: There are plenty of cases where one woman's testimony is as good as one man's. “As regards the witness of two women being required instead of one, the shari'ah generally accepts that this is advisable in cases where women have little knowledge and no expertise of the subject. In matters where their witness would be just as valid as a man's, the witness of one women is sufficient.” (Ruqayyah Waris Maqsud) The proof that the meaning of the above verse applies only in a very narrow and technical context is that many scholars of Islam have permitted women to be judges. Further, all Sunni schools agree that a woman may be a mufti just as a man can. Based on that consensus, moreover, al-Tabari, and probably al-Shaybani, were also of the position that a woman could be a judge (qadi) for all types of cases, because a fatwa is more important (a'zam makanatan) than a judgment (qada').
http://www.livingislam.org/n/wmnc_e.html
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
This is for "whatisthepoint' and was addressed here earlier by Ansar Al' Adl of the testimony of women


3. WOMEN ARE DEFICIENT AS WITNESSES

Comment: The true title of this section should be: “Limitations to a woman's testimony.”
The testimony of the woman is not equal to that of the man. Her testimony is half the testimony of the man with regard to financial matters. The Qur'an states,
"And call in to witness two witnesses, men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witness as you approve of, that if one woman errs the other will remind her."[19]
19. The Qur'an, 2: 282.

Comment: There are plenty of cases where one woman's testimony is as good as one man's. “As regards the witness of two women being required instead of one, the shari'ah generally accepts that this is advisable in cases where women have little knowledge and no expertise of the subject. In matters where their witness would be just as valid as a man's, the witness of one women is sufficient.” (Ruqayyah Waris Maqsud) The proof that the meaning of the above verse applies only in a very narrow and technical context is that many scholars of Islam have permitted women to be judges. Further, all Sunni schools agree that a woman may be a mufti just as a man can. Based on that consensus, moreover, al-Tabari, and probably al-Shaybani, were also of the position that a woman could be a judge (qadi) for all types of cases, because a fatwa is more important (a'zam makanatan) than a judgment (qada').
http://www.livingislam.org/n/wmnc_e.html
Is there a similar rule for men, that two male witnesses equal one female witness in areas where men have little or no expertise?
And what about this hadith?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
It's Bukhari.

Oh yeah, how was Egypt?
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doorster
03-23-2009, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The beating isn't what you think it is. The 'hitting' referred to in Quran isn't punching, nor kicking, nor slapping or even a plain ol' push. It's a tap on the wrist to show disapproval, that's all.

Read the verses before and the verses after and it'll make much more sense.

In the Quran in Chapter 4 (chapter called An-Nisa) verse 34, it says "And beat them".

Yusuf Estes clears it up in a short and simple reply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIThZLxz9M
EDIT:

Infact, Prohet Muhammad (saaws) said that the best amongst you (muslims) are those who are best to his wives.
That was a mistake he made when he was a New Muslim, Brother Estes changed his stance after having learnt the Arabic of Quraan, now he is on the correct understanding, which is: "Push away" meaning split-up for good
READ all of his works before quoting him please!
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1038876
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'Abd-al Latif
03-23-2009, 11:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Is there a similar rule for men, that two male witnesses equal one female witness in areas where men have little or no expertise?
And what about this hadith?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
It's Bukhari.

Oh yeah, how was Egypt?

Here's another one for you:

Belittling Women with the Hadeeth: “Women are Deficient in Intellect and Deen.


Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz



We often hear the noble Hadeeth "Women are deficient in their intelligence and in their Deen” and some men use this Hadeeth as a form of belittlement towards the women. We desire from you O noble shaykh, clarification of the meaning of this Hadeeth?

The meaning of the Hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam):

“I have never seen anyone with a deficiency of ‘Aql (intellect) and Deen (religion) who are more overpowering to men than one of you [women].”

So it was said:

“O Messenger of Allaah, what is the deficiency in her intelligence?”

He said:

“Isn’t the witness of two women equal to that of one man?”

So it was said:

“What is the deficiency in her Deen?”

So he said:

“Isn’t it the case that if she is menstruating she doesn’t pray or fast?”

So the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) clarified that the deficiency of her intellect was from the angle of her weak memory and that her testimony is strengthened with the testimony of another woman. This is because of the preciseness of the witness (in Islaam) and because she could forget and make an addition or deletion to the testimony. Just as Allaah says:

{And bring forth two witnesses from your own men. If there are not two men (available) then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs then the other can remind her…} [2282]

As for deficiency in her Deen, then it is because during her state of menstruation and post-partum bleeding, she abandons the Salaat and fasting, and she doesn’t make up the salaat. This is from the deficiency in her Deen. But this deficiency is not blameworthy upon her. Rather it is a deficiency, which happens as a result of that which Allaah had decreed for her and this was done in a manner of leniency and easiness towards her. For if she were to fast in a state of menstruation or in a state of postpartum bleeding it would harm her. So from the Mercy of Allaah (towards women) He has legislated for her to abandon the fast at the time when she is menstruating or in a state of Nifaas, and to make up the fast afterwards. As for the salaat, then without a doubt, the state of menstruation prevents her from purification. So from the mercy of Allaah, He legislated for her to abandon her prayer and likewise in the state of Nifaas.

He also legislated for her not to make it up, because in making up the (Salaat) is difficulty, because the Salaat is tremendous, and repetitious, five times throughout the night and day, and the days of menstruation can be plentiful, sometimes seven or eight days or more than that. And the Nifaas could reach 40 days. So from the mercy of Allaah upon her and from His Ihsaan (doing good) towards her is that He removed the Salaat from her whether it be the initial Salaat or the make-up. And this does not necessitate that her intelligence is deficient in everything! Nor that her Deen is deficient in everything! But indeed the Messenger (saw) clarified that the deficiency in her intelligence is from that which happens to her from the lack of precision in her memory and testimony, and that the deficiency in her Deen is from the fact that she leaves off the prayer and fasting at the time of her menses or in the state of Nifaas. Also this doesn’t necessitate that she is less than a man in everything! or the fact that the man is better in everything! Yes, generally the male gender is better than the gender of the females generally for many reasons. Just as Allaah the High and Sublime says:

{Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend their wealth (to support them)…} [434]

But she can surpass him, sometimes, in many things. And by Allaah how many women surpass many men in their intelligence, Deen and precision! But verily that which is narrated on the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) is that the women are surpassed by men, generally, in intelligence and in the religion only. There can proceed from her many righteous actions, in which, she can surpass the men and in her Taqwah of Allaah, Azza Wa Jall, and in her station in the hereafter. There could be some affairs that she places great importance on and is precise in them more so than the precision of a man. There are many issues, which she carefully considers, and is diligent in memorizing and precise in. She would become the foundation in Islaamic history and point of reference in many affairs and this is clear to those who ponder and reflect on the state of the women during the time of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and after that. With this it should be understood that this deficiency should not prevent her from being treated equally in her narrations and in her testimony, if it is strengthened with the testimony of another woman.

And it doesn’t necessarily mean that it (this deficiency) should prevent her from having Taqwah of Allaah and the fact that she could be from the most virtuous slaves of Allaah if she is upright in her Deen, even if the fasting and Salaat is not obligatory upon her at the time of menstruation and Nifaas rather this is a deficiency which is specific to the intellect and Deen just as the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) clarified. It is not appropriate that a believer should accuse her of being deficient in everything and weak in every area of her Deen, and its clarification is pertinent and important so that the speech of the Messenger is understood in it’s proper context and in the best possible manner.



And Allaah knows best.
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جوري
03-23-2009, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Is there a similar rule for men, that two male witnesses equal one female witness in areas where men have little or no expertise?
And what about this hadith?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
It's Bukhari.

Oh yeah, how was Egypt?
pls read all that I have posted not little snippets!
an analogy if I may..
You have a headache, I prescribe you an ASA.
Muezzin has a headache and I prescribe him a large dose of steroids..
you come and say, well shouldn't you prescribe an ASA for a headache?
given my knowledge in the field of science I say, I am the best judge of what this situation requires, not all headaches (no pun intended) are created equal!
same thing in the field of religion.. you as a lay man can't sit there and decide which hadith to apply to which situation!
Thus I have already covered that the testimony of ONE professional woman is equal to that of a man! you going back to point A isn't going to change what scholars agree upon or what I have written.

_______
my trip to Egypt sucked.. I did post a couple of pix under the photography thread!

all the best
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
pls read all that I have posted not little snippets!
an analogy if I may..
You have a headache, I prescribe you an ASA.
Muezzin has a headache and I prescribe him a large dose of steroids..
you come and say, well shouldn't you prescribe an ASA for a headache?
given my knowledge in the field of science I say, I am the best judge of what this situation requires, not all headaches (no pun intended) are created equal!
same thing in the field of religion.. you as a lay man can't sit there and decide which hadith to apply to which situation!
Thus I have already covered that the testimony of ONE professional woman is equal to that of a man! you going back to point A isn't going to change what scholars agree upon or what I have written.

_______
my trip to Egypt sucked.. I did post a couple of pix under the photography thread!

all the best
Yes I got that. I'm asking why the Quran prescribes 2 female wintnesses in case they have little knowledge of the field and doesn't make the same rule for men, so that the other man may correct the fist one if he errs.
Well, the explanation Abd-al-Latif posted seem to suggest women have a worse memory than men, it also mentions intelligence in the end.
sorry to hear that, well I wouldnt go to Egypt this time of year myself.
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Shukri18
03-23-2009, 11:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
There are many ‘Muslim’ countries yet there are few Muslim countries that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, there’s got to be a reason for that?

I can think of only two countries/provinces, possibly three that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, Iran, Saudi (not sure) and the Taliban areas. And, from what I can see, these three countries operate their own (and different) interpretation of the law.

Below are a few judgements from sharia courts

“In 2002, a Nigerian Sharia court sentenced Amina Lawal to be stoned to death for having a child out of wedlock; in contrast, the man named as the father denied responsibility, and as a result, the court dropped charges against him.

“In another case, teenager Bariya Magazu asserted that she was raped by three men and became pregnant as a result. Because she had sex outside of marriage, a Sharia court sentenced her to one hundred lashes, even though seven people corroborated her story. The men accused of the rape received no punishment.

“The extreme bias against women is apparent in sentences of adultery or fornication under Sharia. A woman is convicted simply by becoming pregnant, but a man is not condemned unless four people can testify that they witnessed the normally private acts of adultery or fornication.

“Countries such as Nigeria impose flogging, stoning, or severing off a hand ... all of which are deterrent punishments for serious crimes mentioned in the (Koran).”
There are

Tehran, Dec. 26 – Iranian press have reported the public execution of at least four women in the past year, with at least 14 more to be publicly hanged or stoned to death. http://www.iranfocus.com/en/index.ph...k=view&id=1088

An Iranian woman faces being stoned to death for having an affair with a married man. Mother- of- two Mokarrameh Ebrahimi has spent the last 11 years in jail for adultery with Jafa Kiani (and what happened to Jafa??) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-adultery.html

So I ask again, can a female here tell me why they would prefer to live under a regime that operates the sharia law which clearly treats women badly.
I live in America, and I would completely live under a regime that operates the sharia law. What you fail to realize that the Shari'a law does not remove nor limit womans rights, but in reality Shari'a law protects the women, as well as gives them the justice and freedom they deserve. This law protects the womens dignity, and also empowers them. Previously women were looked upon more as objects and chattels than humans. It also greatly protects the dignity of women by warning Muslims that if someone slanders a chaste believing woman, they will be dealt with severly; now what kind of educated women WOULD NOT want to live under a regime that operates the sharia law?
a law that protects them and gives them a voice.
As for your polygamy argument; Polygamy is permitted because there are more Muslim women than Men. especially in times of war. If we went by the classical model of 1:1, what of the other women? Will they never experience the joy of marriage and family? What of those women who are disabled that require care? What of the blind women? What of the widow that depended on her husband for income? What of the convert? Will she recieve guidance on her own, or is it better to allow her to marry a man that can guide her in Islam. All these are reasons why the classical model is imperfect and why Islam allows for polygamy. It is not necessary to love each wife EQUALLY. However, It is necessary to treat and provide equally for them though, buy a necklace for both wives of equal value, same with car, etc.
when a religion and law focuses so much on equality how can it be unjust?
you my friend have created a whole new definiton on equality and justice.
Shari'a law is not unjust, sadly is some countries the extremist men who run it is unjust. Don't question the law as whole, what you need to question are the individuals who run it, as individuals.
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جوري
03-23-2009, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes I got that. I'm asking why the Quran prescribes 2 female wintnesses in case they have little knowledge of the field and doesn't make the same rule for men, so that the other man may correct the fist one if he errs.
Well, the explanation Abd-al-Latif posted seem to suggest women have a worse memory than men, it also mentions intelligence in the end.
sorry to hear that, well I wouldnt go to Egypt this time of year myself.
The Quran asks you for two male witnesses.. go back and read the verse!
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جوري
03-23-2009, 11:36 PM
[Pickthal 2:282] -----And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses.-------
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Whatsthepoint
03-23-2009, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The Quran asks you for two male witnesses.. go back and read the verse!
No, you don't get it.
Yes it calls for two men. And if one man is missing, you need two additional women.
"the shari'ah generally accepts that this is advisable in cases where women have little knowledge and no expertise of the subject."
What I'm asking is why the Quran doesn't favor female witnesses in areas where females have greater expertise, for example you would need 2 women and if one was mising, two additional men would do.
Get it now?
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جوري
03-23-2009, 11:56 PM
NO, I don't? I said if a woman is an expert in her field then she alone is enough.. Incidents of such where one female witness is enough were listed by Ansar Al 'Adl if someone would be dexterous with the search option.
What the Quran doesn't cover in great detail is covered in sunnah... The Quran for instance tells us to perform prayers but doesn't instruct us to how and that is where we look toward the sunnah for Guidance.

As such I have stated if you are a female and an expert in your field then your witness is enough!

Either way I really don't see how a western system is superior?.. do you find trial by jury superior? I have seen many folks tried by an alleged "jury of their peers' who were anything but!
Sharia'a system is designed to be just not to give undue people grief!
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Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
NO, I don't? I said if a woman is an expert in her field then she alone is enough.. Incidents of such where one female witness is enough were listed by Ansar Al 'Adl if someone would be dexterous with the search option.
What the Quran doesn't cover in great detail is covered in sunnah... The Quran for instance tells us to perform prayers but doesn't instruct us to how and that is where we look toward the sunnah for Guidance.

As such I have stated if you are a female and an expert in your field then your witness is enough!
I'm asking why Islamic texts use women as an example of unreliable and non-expert witnesses, eventhough men can be just as unreliable and non-experta dn accoding to you, the expertise is the only thing that counts.

and you havent commented on the ahdith claiming women have a defficient mind and Latif's psot saying the same for your memory skills.
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جوري
03-24-2009, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm asking why Islamic texts use women as an example of unreliable and non-expert witnesses, eventhough men can be just as unreliable and non-experta dn accoding to you, the expertise is the only thing that counts.

and you havent commented on the ahdith claiming women have a defficient mind and Latif's psot saying the same for your memory skills.
Let's put it this way so it seems more real to you
in the west, if I am going to be tried of a crime 'say mal-practice' I guarantee that I will not get 12 medical experts as a 'Jury of my peers'.. if I were being tried by Shari3a law, I WOULDN'T WANT WOMEN AT ALL as witness for or against me, It might sound sexist against my own kind.. but it really takes alot for a female to be purely objective and non- emotive.. the fact that it is two at all is actually sort of consoling.. unless indeed she is an expert in her field which would be akin to me being tried by '12 jury of my peers'
male and female minds work differently.. you should read



it is written by a female doctor.. after reading it, you'll see that in fact women have a bigger hippocampus than men where as men have a bigger frontal brain. I'll argue that women have a better memory than men, but men are better at executive decisions.
realizing differences isn't a 'deficiency' it is what it is just a difference that each gender can capitalize on or be a slave to depending on your point of view. I have commented previously on the hadith where you allege women are deficient in the mind ad nauseam.. you can rummage through my old replies..

all the best
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YusufNoor
03-24-2009, 01:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok.
Their witness is worth half the witness fo a man, tehy inherit less, can't be heads of states, they can't marry 4 men, they don't get virgins in heaven, if tehy're slaves, their masters can have sex with them, there's a dispute as to whethr they're allowed to vote etc.
:sl:

let me attempt to answer this as best as i can, although i'm not sure why!

Bismiallahir Rahmanir Raheem

half a witness: stop viewing this with Kufr eyes for a minute, we are talking about Islam. in Islam men and women are different. what might appear lopsided to you may actually be equal or even lopsided the OTHER way.

and i'm basically giving you the Mufti Menk view here [including plagiarism] what i haven't heard i won't answer.

Men are created from clay [dirt] and woman are created from something living, ie, MAN. as a result of this, women have MUCH MUCH MORE MERCY in their created being while men struggle to make sense out of things. in a case where 2 women equal one mans witness, it is because of a woman's Mercy the she be given the opportunity to discuss events with the other women who are witnesses. the man has NO SUCH PRIVILEGE!

2 woman are walking into a courtrooom and they meet a sister who is crying. they move to comfort her, she wails that her only son who provides for her, her sister, her mother and a sick aunt will be executed if found guilty. alas but there is no hope for them if he is taken away. one of the women decides that she feels bad for the poor mother and starts to regret being there to testify. the other one can bring her back to reality.


they inherit less: lets use this example, Abdu and Binta are brother and sister. Binta is a widower living with mom and dad while Abdu has a wife and 3 kids. the parents are killed in a car wreck and after all other portions are taken out, $90,000 is left for them. Abdu gets $60,000 and Binta gets $30,000. outside of Sharia this might appear unfair, but let's look at the reality. Abdu, as a Muslim is required to support his wife and family, so basically his 60,000 will be spent evenly among his family averaging out to about 12,000 each. HOWEVER as Binta's only closest living male relative, he MUST provide for her! PERIOD! her $30,000 is HERS ALONE to spend as she wishes, while Abdu must now use part of his $60,000 to support Binta! in real terms, Abdu's "share" has now dropped down to $10,000 while Binta's has improved to $40,000!

EVEN if Abdu's situation improves to that where HIS WIFE has an opportunity to work [Islamically.] ANY AND ALL INCOME that she earns is HERS and HERS ALONE! Men have the responsibility to support their wives and children and any other woman who may fall under their care!


can't marry 4 men: well, it is the JOB of the men to support the family, if a women doesn't work how can she support 1 husband, let alone 2 or more. In Islam, under the Sharia, a man may only take additional wives IF he can AFFORD and under the provision that he treat them fairly! in this manner it should be no great difficulty if a wife gets pregnant.

as we have seen from the previous example, men have clear cut responsibilities [and we talking about Sharia, not how some tribes/Nations/Muslims approach the situation]. how would a woman who is pregnant support 4 husbands and any children? and imagine that being further limited by the view that breastfeeding should take place for 2 years per child. and imagine how often she would be pregnant!

and further more, we have the case that a child MUST BE given the name of his father! PERIOD! IT IS A GRIEVOUS SIN NOT TO TELL A FATHER WHO IS HIS REAL CHILD OR A CHILD WHO IS HIS REAL FATHER! would not this be a bit difficult in places where paternity tests aren't sold in the market place?


i nicked some of that from Mufti Menk's Muslim Women! Are they Oppressed?

found here:

http://www.nazirakoob.com/menk/Vol1.html#Part8

DIVORCE: one of the Sahabah was allowed to divorce her husband just because she feared form her religion. the Prophet, pbuh, merely told her to give the dowry back and that was it!

from Bukhari:

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 198:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

The sister of 'Abdullah bin Ubai narrated (the above narration, 197) with the addition that the Prophet said to Thabit's wife, "Will you return his garden?" She said, "Yes," and returned it, and (then) the Prophet ordered Thabit to divorce her. Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The wife of Thabit bin Qais came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for any defects in his character or his religion, but I cannot endure to live with him." On that Allah's Apostle said, "Will you return his garden to him?" She said, "Yes."

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 199:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The wife of Thabit bin Qais bin Shammas came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for any defects in his character or his religion, but I am afraid that I (being a Muslim) may become unthankful for Allah's Blessings." On that, Allah's Apostle said (to her), 'Will you return his garden to him?" She said, "Yes." So she returned his garden to him and the Prophet told him to divorce her.


i don't know about: voting, heads of state or the slave thing.

:w:
Reply

Woodrow
03-24-2009, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
That was a mistake he made when he was a New Muslim, Brother Estes changed his stance after having learnt the Arabic of Quraan, now he is on the correct understanding, which is: "Push away" meaning split-up for good
READ all of his works before quoting him please!
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1038876
I think we need to remember that Bro. Yusuf made many of the same acts of enthusiasm as many of us reverts make when we first revert. I am certain he cringes every time he sees some of his early youtube videos. Like all of us reverts he went through and is still going through a period of learning.
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Amat Allah
03-24-2009, 04:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
After many years of trying I am still trying to understand women - why do women stay with men who beat them?
I think u don`t have the answer my respected brother but thank u for the reply it answers many things to me and gave me the only clear and categorical reason why u made this thread in the first place...^^

may Allah lead ur way to the path of the endless happiness Ameeen

thanks alot once again ^^

done on this thread All Praise be to Allah ...
Reply

S_87
03-24-2009, 10:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

Could you answer my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
edit- did answer this question, but there are many who know exactly what they are entitled to in case of divorce
also, the male is required to support the woman until her 'iddah' period is over in which case she can then work or her male relatives are required to support her is she cant. oh and if she has kids then upkeep from the male too.
Reply

Musaafirah
03-24-2009, 12:56 PM
You know this thread has moved from the original title of 'Sharia law - do you really want it?' to a topic about 'find me all the hadiths on how stupid women are considered to be'
Or so it would seem.
Thinker, please read through all the posts that other members have given before summing them up as utter tosh (Well, that's the impression I'm getting from your posts).
To answer the original question: Yes, I do want Shariah law. Not sure if it'll work in Britain, Aamirsaab's already highlighted the reasons why. Though, I would be willing to emigrate to a country where it is properly implemented.
Reply

Azy
03-24-2009, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Certain violent punishments?
Including but not limited to certain violent punishments, yes.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
And certain critics of Islam think they're clever?
I would be inclined to agree that 95% of criticisms are ham-fisted (if you'll pardon the expression).
Reply

Ar-RaYYan
03-24-2009, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Although you may be a Muslim living in a country which is not governed by sharia law, would it be right that a good Muslim should apply the sharia law to themsleves where they can? . . . . . . . . .

From what I have read it appears that men can divorce their wives at will and without reason whereas women cannot divorce their husbands without the permission of the courts and they are unlikley to grant permission unless the husband contravenes Islamic teachings.
After a wife is divorced she can keep her dowry and the children until the are ‘weaned’ and the husband must support the child during the weaning period. After the child is weaned it would normally go to the husband.

After that the wife is not entitled to half the assets, any of her husbands salary and other earnings or pension.

If that is correct do you believe that a good Muslim women living in a country which is not governed by sharia law should volunteer (upon divorce) only to take what the sharia law entitles her to? To take it further, would she be contravening Islam by not applying sharia law to what she take upon divorce?
Why do you ask questions but can't be bothered to read the answers properly? why do you twist people's words to support your arguments?

i have read the whole thread and have come across many times where the members already informed you that a husband CANNOT divorce his wife without a reason and yet you still argue that the husband is islamically allowed. and where do you get the idea from that the court won't grant permission for the wife to divorce from her husband unless he(the husband)
contravenes Islamic teachings?
Please do not make up your own facts and figures and do not give Wikipedia as a source to support your argument!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I'll argue that women have a better memory than men,
Isn't witnessing mostly about memoy? The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the fist one in case she errs.
Reply

S_87
03-24-2009, 03:50 PM
From what I have read it appears that men can divorce their wives at will and without reason whereas women cannot divorce their husbands without the permission of the courts and they are unlikley to grant permission unless the husband contravenes Islamic teachings.
trust me if women were allowed to divorce their husbands freely then there wouldnt be many marriages lasting at all. divorce is a serious matter islamically, as a female i can assure u most women would probably 'divorce' their husbands every month if they could.

After a wife is divorced she can keep her dowry and the children until the are ‘weaned’ and the husband must support the child during the weaning period. After the child is weaned it would normally go to the husband.
wheres your source for this? and how would it 'normally' go to the father? your source? the west generally gives custody to the mother so the children would 'normally' go to the mother...is that what you prefer? fathers for justice :rolleyes:

After that the wife is not entitled to half the assets, any of her husbands salary and other earnings or pension.
if the husbands assets belonged to him only and he works after divorce why in the world should he be obligated to support his divorced wife who can get married again? if their property was shared that a different matter, but i dont get WHY a man should have to continue to support his ex/s after they have gone their separate ways? thats STUPID
Reply

Muezzin
03-24-2009, 04:20 PM
Were Sharia interpreted in its true, uncorrupted form in another country, I would be willing to emigrate to that country.

For it to work, the whole system has to meet the correct criteria - it must never simply be forced upon a population.

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Including but not limited to certain violent punishments, yes.
Okay.

I would be inclined to agree that 95% of criticisms are ham-fisted (if you'll pardon the expression).
Lol.
Reply

Danah
03-24-2009, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
There are 53 posts in this thread from male members and 1 post from a female member, what does that tell us? Is it likely that female members are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?
REALLY?? you think so?? I am very sorry for you if you think so, Why on earth I will be afraid or shy to say something about my proud and honor?.....but brothers here are more active in this section than sisters....and one side note: I think if you meant from the beginning that you are waiting for females relies then you better put that in the title like: Sharia law - do females really want it?
I dunno its just a suggestion to direct females to this thread. I am sure many of them did NOT even know about this.

but I think it will be good to stop talking in place of the others and make assumptions on your own?
just for your knowledge, I did not reply to this thread because I don't have time to come here due to me "studies" I did not even


I am an educated MUSLIM female and I think that societies start corrupting when the Shari'ah is not applied "correctly" there.
another thing,

if Islam abuse women as many people said then you will find me doing another thing rather than studying on the university. I dont feel that Islam is stopping me to do anything I wish to as long as I think that this thing will be good for me. Actually for me being a female muslim I dont feel that Islam is blocking my ambitions but rather its encouraging me to go even higher to be an effective individuals on the society......like doing a higher degree in my major which I am planning to do in the time doing and find the encouragement from my family.

One more thing, I would you to give your opinion about this:
Hilisyan Stansiri says: "prevent mixing, restrict girls' freedom, and return to the veil age, this is better for you than the impudence and lewd of Europe and America

Beret French, said while addressing Muslim girls "do not take the European families as your example, because they are bad ideals to follow"

Famous actress Marilyn Monroe, who wrote an advice to fellow women just before her suicide, says:

"Beware of glory … bewares of those who deceive you with stardom … I am the most miserable woman on earth… I could not be a mother … I am a woman who prefers the house and the honorable family life above everything else. Honorable Family life is the true happiness of an woman, this type of life is the symbol of humanity.. I was oppressed and wronged by all…Cinema life makes a trivial cheap commodity of the woman however glory and the false fame she might have attained".

Lady Cook says: "men are accustomed to mixing which made women seek behaviors that disagree with their nature. The more the mixing the greater is the number of the illegitimate children. The consequences are clear to all. So fathers, do not get tempted by money and stop sending your daughters to work at laboratories and teach them to stay away from men. Statistical data shows that adultery becomes higher and is aggravated where the mixture between the men and the women increases.

Can't you realize that the majority of illegitimate children are to women who work in laboratories or who work as house maids where they are exposed to men's gazes? Had there been no doctors to administer abortion pills and medicines, there would have seen quadruples of these figures. It has become sordid to see men in our country refuse to marry the inexperienced girls; meaning those girls who have children from adultery so that they can benefit from them. How much this woman suffered from the bitterness of the life!!"

British writer Annie Rode says:" if our girls work in houses as servants or maids then it is better than working at laboratories where the girl becomes pollutant by tubercles that take the splendor of her life forever. I wish our country were like Muslims countries; where decency, Chastity and purity are the dress of servants and slaves while enjoying the most luxurious living and a good treatment by the house masters'. A good treatment similar to that they apply to their own children with no harm. ... Yes it is a shame on the British countries that they let their girls becomes symbols of vice by leaving them mix with men. Why are we careless in seeking what makes the girl agrees with her natural being as ordered in the divine religion while abandoning the works the conforms with men to men in a attempt to protect her safety and honor!

Egyptian newspaper 'Al Akhbar ' published in its 20/10/1972 issue the following: "This week, the annual party of Miss Year was held and a great number of ladies from all walks of life attended .The celebration speech was made in Queen Anne's presence and it centered around women Freedom and Requests ...The winner was a 17 years old girl who was unanimously selected. The girl expressed her absolute refusal to the feminine liberation movement and she said that she'd rather keep her femininity and that she does not want to wear trousers to challenge men. She wants to be a woman and her husband to be a man. Everybody applauded to her inclusive of Queen Anne. (Source: The contemporary Arab woman - to where? P. 50).

Dr. John Kishlr one of the American psychologists announced in Chicago that 90 % of the American women are frigid and that 40 % of men are barren. He further added that advertisements that depend on the pictures of the naked girls are the reason in the descent of the sexual level of the American people. (For more details refer to the American congressional committee Report about the investigation in youth crimes in America titled: "the collapsed American society manners - The naked society in documents and numbers, p. is 11)
Tell me what do you think of this article? That is some western views!
and we have a lot of other examples
sorry I dont have the source because I saved this article a while ago in my machine
Reply

جوري
03-24-2009, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Isn't witnessing mostly about memoy? The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the fist one in case she errs.
No.. in everyday life witness isn't about memory.
It is about high fidelity to the events and no ulterior motives!
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جوري
03-24-2009, 06:52 PM
My questions went unanswered:
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
List western freedoms to me that are not found under shari'a law?
Let's hear your reasons for 'denouncing' 'such a regime'?

all the best
and I am not sure I like the not so subtle implication that Muslim men are abusers and Muslim women are stupid..
Perhaps it is a reflection on the one making the statements rather than those implicated?..
I don't take too kindly to folks making underhanded remarks about my father, brothers, uncles, cousins, or my mother, aunts and sisters. Whether blood relatives or in Islam!

If you want to know why folks appear to despise westerners so, I'd actually start right here, makes even the lowly caste systems of India seem more fair!

all the best
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Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
No.. in everyday life witness isn't about memory.
It is about high fidelity to the events and no ulterior motives!
Ok, if it's only about memory, why are two female witnesses required only in certain cases (business) and not all? (That'sa according to aamirsaab)
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جوري
03-24-2009, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok, if it's only about memory, why are two female witnesses required only in certain cases (business) and not all? (That'sa according to aamirsaab)
Again:
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
It is about high fidelity to the events and no ulterior motives!
Reply

Thinker
03-24-2009, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
List western freedoms to me that are not found under shari'a law?
Let's hear your reasons for 'denouncing' 'such a regime'?

all the best
Ah respected Skye, I was wondering when you'd join us. . . .

Freedom . .
The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).
The freedom to send your daughter to any school you choose.
The freedom to choose your own friends, partners, husbands without being accompanied.
The freedom to marry a non-Muslim.
The freedom to work outside the home.
The freedom to work with men.
The freedom to shake a mans hand.
The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Again:
Yes, but why does one women suffice in the case of adultery, whereas it takes two in business related affairs? Come to think about it, if women have ulterior motives, they're more likely to accuse a fellow woman of adultery than fake a few numbers in a business transaction.
Reply

Muezzin
03-24-2009, 07:55 PM
I don't want to speak for Gossamer Skye.

However...

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.
In light of one of my previous posts in this thread, this particular point is tempting a Facepalm image.
Reply

Uthman
03-24-2009, 07:56 PM
Freedom is a relative concept. For example, many Muslim women consider wearing the Hijab to be a source of freedom for them and rather the western lifestyle as oppressive. Many Non-Muslim women consider the reverse to be true.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Freedom is a relative concept. For example, many Muslim women consider wearing the Hijab to a source of freedom for them and rather the western lifestyle as oppressive. Many Non-Muslim women consider the reverse to be true.
Newsboy has a point.
No moral system is perfect for everyone though some people will claim theirs is.
It's all relative, for me, the system most western countries apply nowadays seems the best, for Latika, the Hindu system may seem better and so on.
Reply

جوري
03-24-2009, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Ah respected Skye, I was wondering when you'd join us. . . .

Freedom .
.
The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).
You can wear any form of clothes as a Muslim woman no one will crucify you for not being up to code.. conservative wear is something between you and God not you and the community.. Muslim women dress as they do out of desire to dress as such, go to a place like Saudi Arabia in Jeddah, the so-called very heart of Islam and see how some of the women dress.. you mistake having dignity for lack of freedom whereas most of us would argue that forcing people to take off their conservative wear is the true sign of lack of freedom. Not every woman wishes to be objectified for your pleasure.. perhaps those who deign themselves desire for you to see nothing else but their body parts while those you deem lack freedom desire for you to see something else other than sexual beings?

The freedom to send your daughter to any school you choose.
Where in Sharia'a law is a woman forbidden to send her daughter to the school of her choosing?

The freedom to choose your own friends, partners, husbands without being accompanied.
Where in sharia'a law are you forbidden to choose your friends and partners?
Al-Khansaa’ bint Khidaam complained to the Prophet that her father wanted her to marry someone she didn’t want, saying “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.” The Prophet said, “Then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” Al-Khansaa’ said, “I have actually accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters” (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fath Al-Barî Ibn Hajr, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

The freedom to marry a non-Muslim.
I assure you no Muslim woman wishes to marry a non-muslim, if she did she wouldn't be Muslim and can do so in the place of her choosing!

The freedom to work outside the home.
Where in shari'a law is a woman forbidden to work outside the home? you are aware that the prophet worked for his first wife? that she had her own business? that 1400 yrs ago women were allowed to vote while not fifty yrs ago in your civilized west a woman of color was asked to give up her seat for a white man?

The freedom to work with men.
Who said in sharia'a law a woman can't work with men?

The freedom to shake a mans hand.
Does it bother you just the same, that the traditional Japanese greeting looks like this



or just when it comes to Muslim women? just so we are on the same page?

The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.
if you don't flaunt your adultery 'orgy' style I suppose you can get away with it.. you seem to be such an advocate for base values, I am not sure I understand why?

all the best
Reply

Thinker
03-24-2009, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ar-RaYYan
Why do you ask questions but can't be bothered to read the answers properly? why do you twist people's words to support your arguments?

i have read the whole thread and have come across many times where the members already informed you that a husband CANNOT divorce his wife without a reason and yet you still argue that the husband is islamically allowed. and where do you get the idea from that the court won't grant permission for the wife to divorce from her husband unless he(the husband)
contravenes Islamic teachings?
Please do not make up your own facts and figures and do not give Wikipedia as a source to support your argument!
I think it may be you who is not reading or reading selectively or seeing what you want to see.

Whether a man can divorce without a reason is questionable whether he has to give the reason is not - he can divorce his wife by simply saying "I divorce you" and he doesn't have to give her a reason; the wife however need his permission.

Read these . .

The reason why divorce is in the man’s hands, and the ruling on divorce for no reason
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/111881

Giving talaaq (divorce) three times at once
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2373/divorce

Wife cannot divorce her husband without permission
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34579/divorce

Divorced by saying the I divorce you (no reason needed)
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/36580/divorce

Women who convert ti Islam must divorce kafir husbands
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/117/divorce
Reply

Thinker
03-24-2009, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA

One more thing, I would you to give your opinion about this:

Hilisyan Stansiri says: "prevent mixing, restrict girls' freedom, and return to the veil age, this is better for you than the impudence and lewd of Europe and America

Beret French, said while addressing Muslim girls "do not take the European families as your example, because they are bad ideals to follow"

Tell me what do you think of this article? That is some western views!
and we have a lot of other examples

Hi thanks for your views,

I read the article but I'm not sure I understood the point the author was trying to make. Is it simply that 'western women are not happy because they have too much freedom?

Can I ask which country you are living in?

Thanks
Reply

جوري
03-24-2009, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I think it may be you who is not reading or reading selectively or seeing what you want to see.

Whether a man can divorce without a reason is questionable whether he has to give the reason is not - he can divorce his wife by simply saying "I divorce you" and he doesn't have to give her a reason; the wife however need his permission.

Read these . .

The reason why divorce is in the man’s hands, and the ruling on divorce for no reason
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/111881
A woman can divorce her husband in Islam!
Name of Questioner
Hasan - United Kingdom

Title
Can a Woman Divorce Herself?

Question
Respected scholars of Islam, As-Salaam `Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh. I’d like to know the Islamic view regarding this question: Does woman have the right to divorce herself? Jazakum Allah khayran.

Date
29/Jul/2002

Topic
Divorce

Answer

Wa`alykum As-Salamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, it gives us great pleasure to receive your question, which is so interesting. May Allah enlighten our hearts with the light of Islam, Ameen!

Islam cares about family stability, which is the cornerstone of the Muslim society. Therefore, it lays downs rules and arrangements that guarantee that love and harmony prevail in the society.

Coming to the point your raised in your question, divorce, in principle, is the Shari`ah-based right of the husband; he can waive this right and can give his wife a right to divorce herself. There are other cases where the wife can end the marital bond such as Khul`.

In this regard, The European Council for Fatwa and Research, issued the following Fatwa:

“Originally Islam has given the right of divorce to man.

- Woman has the right to execute divorce if this is a condition stipulated in the marriage contract or the husband gives her this right later on.

- A woman can also ask for Khul` in front of a judge who should exhaust all means of reconciliation before sentencing Khul`.

- A woman may agree with her husband on divorce according to legal conditions.

- A woman may also ask the judge to divorce her if it is legally proved she has been harmed. The judge has the right to issue divorce verdict if the wife prove that harm. But the judge should try his best to make reconciliation, as Allah commanded him, especially by arbitrating to people to help him.”

For more information, you are recommended to read the following Fatwas:



Name of Questioner
Nur

Title
Can a Woman Divorce Her Husband?

Question
Respected scholars, As-salamu `alaykum. Is it true that in Islam ONLY a man can divorce his wife and a woman cannot divorce her husband? Jazakum Allahu khayran.

Date
06/Jul/2006

Name of Mufti
Ahmad Kutty

Topic
Divorce

Answer

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His sake.
Generally speaking, divorce is not viewed favorably in Islam; rather it has been either condemned or discouraged unless warranted by valid reasons. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cautioned against senseless exercise of divorce when he said "Divorce is the most abominable of all permissible acts in the sight of Allah" (Abu Dawud). So no one with sound Islamic spirit and attitude should resort to divorce except in extreme and unavoidable cases, where it has been considered as legitimate in Islam. The reason for this is clear, for divorce entails serious consequences for families and individuals. It results in deep psychological and emotional scars, especially when children are involved.
In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:
This is certainly wholly untrue and false; such a misconception is mainly due to utter ignorance of the laws of the Shari`ah as well as, unfortunately, to the distorted ways we have been practicing these laws in our societies. When all the evidence is considered and evaluated, it is crystal clear that in Islam women, just like men, can have legitimate rights to divorce their husbands.

Divorce, however, it must be noted, is the most abominable of all permissible things in Islam. It is considered as the pet project of the devil, who is never satisfied with anything other than breaking up the relations between a husband and his wife. So all conscientious Muslims, male as well as female, must guard against the snares of Satan. They are obligated to try their utmost to maintain the sanctity of family. Therefore, divorce is a rare exception only to be undertaken for specific reasons, after having exhausted all means of reconciliation.

Having said this, I must state that Islam envisages perfect equity between the spouses in rights and responsibilities: [They shall have rights just as they have responsibilities in fair measure] (Al-Baqarah 2:228).
Such rights of women definitely include the right to divorce their husbands when and where cohabitation becomes difficult.

Such genuine reasons include physical or emotional abuse, for at no time does Islam tolerate such behavior from anyone; the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) instituted the firm principle that "there shall be no inflicting or reciprocating of harm" (Ahmad and Ibn Majah).
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) inferred the above principle from numerous Qur'anic verses that clearly forbid abuse, injury, or harm in every respect in all cases, and even more particularly in spousal relations. Thus we read a constant theme in the Qur'an:

[But do not retain them in order to harm or wrong them.] (Al-Baqarah 2:231)

[Do not harass them so as to make life intolerable for them.] (At-Talaq 65:6)

[A mother should not be made to suffer because of her child, nor should a father because of his child. The same duties devolve upon the father's heir.] (Al-Baqarah 2:233)

Based on these and similar evidence, there is a consensus among scholars that where there is clear evidence of harm inflicted on a wife, she has every right to seek divorce from her husband.

The Qur'an has also established the principle that where spouses feel that they are so utterly incompatible with each other that they find themselves in a situation where they will not be able to protect themselves against sins, then they have a right to divorce. Thus we read in the sources that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) granted divorces to women who had complained to him that they were no longer happy with their husbands because of their incompatibility, while their husbands had no moral faults as such. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never harassed these women by further questioning; he only told them to return the dower and gifts they had received from their husbands.
Excerpted, with slight modifications, from www.islam.ca.


Giving talaaq (divorce) three times at once
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2373/divorce
Do you even read what you google before pasting it?
Giving talaaq (divorce) three times at once is bid’ah, and goes against the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “… When you divorce women, divorce them at their ‘iddah (prescribed periods)…” [al-Talaaq 65:1]
from the same link you provided by the way... bida'a means innovation as in, you shouldn't do it!

Divorced by saying the I divorce you (no reason needed)
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/36580/divorce
I like your addendum of no reason needed? I'll not touch upon this for the purposes of our topic, but Thank God Islam allows for a divorce without being excommunicated from the church such as in the dominant religion of the 'civilized west'!

Women who convert ti Islam must divorce kafir husbands
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/117/divorce
So? Have you ever asked a Muslim woman whether she wishes to remain married to a kaffir?

all the best
Reply

aadil77
03-24-2009, 08:54 PM
The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).
I was expecting this one, what are the obvious bits? its not obvious anymore in the west. I'm sure in a couple years time you'll demand women have the right to go out fully naked, because its people like you that like perving on women wearing skimpy clothing and you wouldn't want them to be denied that right would you?:ooh: Just shows a bit about you, the fact that you list this first as a freedom
Reply

جوري
03-24-2009, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, but why does one women suffice in the case of adultery, whereas it takes two in business related affairs? Come to think about it, if women have ulterior motives, they're more likely to accuse a fellow woman of adultery than fake a few numbers in a business transaction.
this should cover your Q on multiple accounts!

Name of Questioner
Akhtar

Title
Are Raped Women Asked to Bring Four Witnesses?

Question
Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. When it says to bring four witnesses against a woman who has committed indecency, is it for the woman who has been raped or this is for a married woman whose husband is in doubt about her indecency? Please explain in detail.

Date
29/Aug/2004

Name of Counsellor
Ahmad Kutty

Topic
Misconceptions

Answer

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to people of knowledge to get themselves well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam as well as all aspects of life.

In Islam, we are not allowed to tarnish the honor of anyone. One is required to produce four witnesses when making an allegation of adultery against another person; otherwise, one will be guilty of slandering.

A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:


If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

As for a spouse who witnesses his or her partner committing adultery and the other party denies it and they are unable to provide witnesses, they are, if they so desire, to part company by repudiating each other by engaging in what is known as a solemn oath and prayer of curse (li`an). It is described thus in the Qur’an: “And those who accuse their wives, and have no witnesses but themselves, then the testimony of each of them shall be a testimony sworn by God repeated four times, that he is indeed truthful. And the fifth (oath) is that God’s curse be upon him if he is lying. And it shall avert punishment from her that she testify a testimony repeated and sworn by God four times, that he is lying. And a fifth (oath) that the wrath of God be upon her, if he has spoken the truth” (An-Nur: 6-9).
Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.muslims.ca
Reply

Azy
03-24-2009, 09:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Isn't witnessing mostly about memoy? The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the fist one in case she errs.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
No.. in everyday life witness isn't about memory.
It is about high fidelity to the events and no ulterior motives!
PICKTHAL: When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing... And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. (2:282)
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I'll argue that women have a better memory than men
I don't get it.
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جوري
03-24-2009, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
PICKTHAL: When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing... And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. (2:282)

I don't get it.
Business transactions are 'frontal cortex based' not 'hippocampus' based.. thus I am not sure what is difficult to understand? is that you have no abstract thinking?

all the best
Reply

Amadeus85
03-24-2009, 09:26 PM
I dont understand why You are arguing peeps. Muslims want islamic law in their countries. Thats simple as 2+2=4.We, giaurs, wont live there, so why we care? And we demand from all those coming to us to obey our law. Is there something more simple than that?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-24-2009, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Ah respected Skye, I was wondering when you'd join us. . . .

Freedom . .
The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).
The freedom to send your daughter to any school you choose.
The freedom to choose your own friends, partners, husbands without being accompanied.
The freedom to marry a non-Muslim.
The freedom to work outside the home.
The freedom to work with men.
The freedom to shake a mans hand.
The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.
AAhh, freedom.

How sweet is the freedom for a muslim woman who walks dignified without being harrassed.
How sweet freedom is to be veiled from the perverted clutches of a strange man.
How sweet freedom is not for a muslim woman to dress up for a strange man.
How sweet it is for a muslim woman to be a precious jewel for her one man.
How sweet freedom is for a Muslim woman to be taught to marry a dignified Muslim man.
How Islam preaches sweet freedom, to stone to death the man and woman guilty of adultry and free us from those who destroy families and society.
How sweet is Islamic freedom who restricts sending children from going to certain schools to preserve their piety in a corrupt society.
How sweet is Islamic freedom that restricts the muslim woman to work with men to preserve her chastity and modesty.
How sweet is freedom for a Muslim woman who is a jewel in her own home.
How sweet is freedom in her own home, a fortified protection when she is alone.
How sweet is Islamic freedom that teachs her virtues that will last.
How sweet it is, this religion which a muslim does hold fast!
Reply

جوري
03-24-2009, 09:37 PM
^^ when Muslim women don't work, the only ones who suffer are Muslim women.
Islam doesn't restrict a woman from working..
we need Muslim women scholars, doctors, teachers, pharmacists, engineers, merchants, accountants, chefs, etc, etc.

I believe it a serious obligation not an injunction to serve wo/man kind..

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
Reply

Thinker
03-24-2009, 09:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
I was expecting this one, what are the obvious bits? its not obvious anymore in the west. I'm sure in a couple years time you'll demand women have the right to go out fully naked, because its people like you that like perving on women wearing skimpy clothing and you wouldn't want them to be denied that right would you?:ooh: Just shows a bit about you, the fact that you list this first as a freedom
You gave me negative reps accusing me of taking the p***.

Why is it whenever anyone questions some aspect of Islam which is difficult to explain that Muslims get angry and defensive?

You can dress it up and dance around it all you like but it is a fact that women are not equal to men in Islam and that’s fact. You might not like being asked to explain why but don’t accuse the questioner of taking the p***.

In trying to understand what life would be like living under sharia law we (in the west) have few examples; they are the Taliban controlled areas and countries like Somalia. Again, you might not like the way they portray life under sharia but they don’t care what you think because they are 100% sure they have got it right. Now, because I quote them as examples of sharia and you find it uncomfortable you accuse me of taking the p*** and give me negative reps – that’s immature - and I’m being polite!
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Thinker
03-24-2009, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
A woman can divorce her husband in Islam!
Indeed she can - but only with the permission of a man!
Reply

Thinker
03-24-2009, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I dont understand why You are arguing peeps. Muslims want islamic law in their countries. Thats simple as 2+2=4.We, giaurs, wont live there, so why we care? And we demand from all those coming to us to obey our law. Is there something more simple than that?
What's a giaur?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-24-2009, 09:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Indeed she can - but only with the permission of a man!
Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that women wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.

The evidence from the Sunnah is the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (4867) from Ibn Abbaas, in which it says that the wife of Thaabit ibn Qays came to the Messenger of Allaah (saaws) and said, "O Messenger of Allah, I do not blame Thaabit ibn Qays for any defect in his character or his religious commitment, but I would hate to commit an act of kufr (disbelief) when I am a Muslim." The Messenger of Allah (saaws) said, "Will you give him back his garden [which he had given as dowry]?" She said, "Yes.” The Messenger of Allah (saws) said (to Thaabit), "Accept the garden, and divorce her once."

Her saying "but I would hate to commit an act of kufr (disbelief)" means that she wasn't attracted to him and did not want to be sinful, so she asked for a divorce. The condition she was given was to return back her dowry and she accepted and the divorce took place.

So stop generalizing. Islam is a religion that covers every aspect of our lives so certain rulings aren't general for all cases, there are many specific rulings which cover a wide varity of different scenarios so a certain condition which is generally known by the masses may not necessarly be the final verdict.
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Azy
03-24-2009, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Business transactions are 'frontal cortex based' not 'hippocampus' based.. thus I am not sure what is difficult to understand? is that you have no abstract thinking?
What I don't understand is that it explicitly states that an aid to memory is the reason an extra woman is required.
They are there in the capacity of witnesses to an event, not accountants, their memory is all that is required.
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Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 10:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that woman wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.

The evidence from the Sunnah is the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (4867) from Ibn Abbaas, in which it says that the wife of Thaabit ibn Qays came to the Messenger of Allaah (saaws) and said, "O Messenger of Allah, I do not blame Thaabit ibn Qays for any defect in his character or his religious commitment, but I would hate to commit an act of kufr (disbelief) when I am a Muslim." The Messenger of Allah (saaws) said, "Will you give him back his garden [which he had given as dowry]?" She said, "Yes.” The Messenger of Allah (saws) said (to Thaabit), "Accept the garden, and divorce her once."

Her saying "but I would hate to commit an act of kufr (disbelief)" means that she wasn't attracted to him and did not want to be sinful, so she asked for a divorce. The condition she was given was to return back her dowry and she accepted and the divorce took place.

So stop generalizing. Islam is a religion that covers every aspect of our lives so certain rulings aren't general for all cases, there are many specific rulings which cover a wide varity of different scenarios so a certain condition which is generally known by the masses may not necessarly be the final verdict.
Can a man divorce his wife for no given reason?
Reply

aamirsaab
03-24-2009, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
What I don't understand is that it explicitly states that an aid to memory is the reason an extra woman is required.
They are there in the capacity of witnesses to an event, not accountants, their memory is all that is required.
And as I said many many posts ago, it is entirely up to the Judge at the end of the day. Judge has a lot of power in Islamic court room. They literally have the fate of someone's life in their hands - their power (in court room) is on par with that level of responsibility.

Edit:
format_quote Originally Posted by whatsthepoint
Can a man divorce his wife for no given reason?
He can denounce talaaq (call for divorce) for no reason but it won't fly in a court room. So, no. He cannot divorce his wife for 'no reason'.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
And as I said many many posts ago, it is entirely up to the Judge at the end of the day. Judge has a lot of power in Islamic court room. They literally have the fate of someone's life in their hands - their power (in court room) is on par with that.
Wyh is the rule even mentioned if it's up to the judge? Are women more likely to forget things in general?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-24-2009, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Can a man divorce his wife for no given reason?
No he cannot, because family life is of the most important aspect of a Muslims life so one is not allowed to divorce for no reason. Why would you go through the hassle of marriage just to divorce in the near future?

I suppose you can say that it's the same as one quitting work for no reasons, why would you do it?

Rather what's encouraged is to remain married. A Hadeeth states that the most detestible thing to Allah which He has made permissible is divorce.
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Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Business transactions are 'frontal cortex based' not 'hippocampus' based.. thus I am not sure what is difficult to understand? is that you have no abstract thinking?

all the best
You haven't told me why a business tstimonay is hippocampus absed and an adultery (or any other for that matter) testimony is not.
And I would like to know why "ulterior motives" can affect a business testimony and not any other testimony.
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'Abd-al Latif
03-24-2009, 10:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You haven't told me why a business tstimonay is hippocampus absed and an adultery (or any other for that matter) testimony is not.
And I would like to know why "ulterior motives" can affect a business testimony and not any other testimony.
If you mean why is the testomany of an adulturer rejected, then I ask you: Is the trustworthy and honest the same as the one who is a untrustworthy and dishonest?
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Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
He can denounce talaaq (call for divorce) for no reason but it won't fly in a court room. So, no. He cannot divorce his wife for 'no reason'.
If I understood thinker correctly, a woman can denounce the tallaaq without the persmission of her husband, which Abd-al-Latif then explained in detail. why is it then that a wife can go directly to court, the same as a man?
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جوري
03-24-2009, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

You can dress it up and dance around it all you like but it is a fact that women are not equal to men in Islam and that’s fact.
You mistake equality for sameness, and that is unfortunate for you-- for it shows so little for the many years you have lived an acquisition of so little wisdom.

You should for starters direct this unequal to men to the Olympics for instance of why women and men don't compete against each other but each in their respective fields?..

I don't think you ask difficult questions at all, I think your questions are nothing short of condescending, in which any reply given you is unsatisfactory if it doesn't cater exactly to your style thinking and in the process you don't care who you insult further go on to dictate to us (Muslim women) what we should feel about our religion or our brothers, husbands and fathers...

I wonder if you advocate as strongly for the termination of the porn industry in your civilized west, before asking our sisters to go naked?

all the best
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Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
If you mean why is the testomany of an adulturer rejected, then I ask you: Is the trustworthy and honest the same as the one who is a untrustworthy and dishonest?
What?
1. Aamirsab said two women in lieu of one man are only required in business transactions. Skye argumened it that women have ulterior motives and a more active hippocampus as opposed to rontal cortex, so I posed the question above.
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جوري
03-24-2009, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
What I don't understand is that it explicitly states that an aid to memory is the reason an extra woman is required.
They are there in the capacity of witnesses to an event, not accountants, their memory is all that is required.
There is alot of things you don't understand, I believe you can be aided through proper schooling not a public blog.. what do you think?
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aamirsaab
03-24-2009, 10:19 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Wyh is the rule even mentioned if it's up to the judge? Are women more likely to forget things in general?
Rule of thumb (like cutting off hands, stoning punishment etc). For your other bit, I don't know. Maybe.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If I understood thinker correctly, a woman can denounce the tallaaq without the persmission of her husband, which Abd-al-Latif then explained in detail. why is it then that a wife can go directly to court, the same as a man?
Because, like all law related matters, it has to be settled in a court room. With a judge. Regardless of your gender, you still have to get the matter settled in a court.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
03-24-2009, 10:19 PM
I'm gonna make a seperate thread, just for Thinker and Whatsthepoint which will elobrate the detials of divorce procedures in Islam for both then men and the women and I'll paste the link on this thread.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-24-2009, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

Rule of thumb (like cutting off hands, stoning punishment etc). For your other bit, I don't know. Maybe.


Because, like all law related matters, it has to be settled in a court room. With a judge. Regardless of your gender, you still have to get the matter settled in a court.
It's the rule of thumb, they gotta be.
I mistyped there, what I meant was "she cannot denounce it" without her husband's permission. Dos that mean she must go to court an is basically in the same position as her husband, or does she require permission to go to court in the first place?
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Muezzin
03-24-2009, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You gave me negative reps accusing me of taking the p***.

Why is it whenever anyone questions some aspect of Islam which is difficult to explain that Muslims get angry and defensive?
Come, now. All through this thread, Muslims have been explaining aspects of Islam that are difficult to explain. You, however, seem to simply ignore any explanation that does not fit your agenda.

It's not some non-Muslim vs Muslim thing. Whatsthepoint, Amadeus85 and Azy have both been getting on pretty well in this thread, mostly because they have the courtesy to at least acknowledge others' input, rather than cherry-picking quotations and constructing fields full of strawmen.

It would greatly aid discussion were you to do the same.
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Azy
03-24-2009, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
There is alot of things you don't understand, I believe you can be aided through proper schooling not a public blog.. what do you think?
I think you've nicely avoided addressing the point. Why do you insist on saying that the memory of the female is not the primary consideration for having an extra witness when the surah in question states that it is?
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
03-24-2009, 10:52 PM
Please also give me some time to gather my resources because there are a lack of resources online which means I have to type up what I have from my books.
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aamirsaab
03-24-2009, 11:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's the rule of thumb, they gotta be.
I mistyped there, what I meant was "she cannot denounce it" without her husband's permission.
In Abd-al Latif's example, the wifey was asking the Prophet's permission - not her husbands. So she can denounce it without permission just as the hubby can.

Dos that mean she must go to court an is basically in the same position as her husband, or does she require permission to go to court in the first place?
Again, she can indeed go to court without permission (I don't even know why we are using the word permission in relation to a divorce: if stuff is that bad in your relationship, gtfo man!).

format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I'm gonna make a seperate thread, just for Thinker and Whatsthepoint which will elobrate the detials of divorce procedures in Islam for both then men and the women and I'll paste the link on this thread.
Make it so, number 1.
Reply

جوري
03-24-2009, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I think you've nicely avoided addressing the point. Why do you insist on saying that the memory of the female is not the primary consideration for having an extra witness when the surah in question states that it is?
stored emotive memories of the hippocampus are different from the executive decision making memories of the frontal lobe.. as with everything else I will not reduce a compendium on neurology to reply to you for two reasons
1- I don't believe you carry scientific integrity
2- once we are done you'll end up googling third party info to make a case for yourself.. I am too jet lagged and even if not have a general lack of interest in breaking things down to you..

I wonder if your time might be better spent reflecting on the 'trial by ordeal' of subjecting the accused person to dangerous or painful tests believed to be under divine control as was in the west, or even modern day street rats sitting on jury who know nothing of the law deciding people's fate or why castrato was performed on pubertal boys to enable them to have soprano voices for the opera before dwelling on minuscule details of Islamic Jurisprudence!

all the best
Reply

YusufNoor
03-24-2009, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You gave me negative reps accusing me of taking the p***.

Why is it whenever anyone questions some aspect of Islam which is difficult to explain that Muslims get angry and defensive?

You can dress it up and dance around it all you like but it is a fact that women are not equal to men in Islam and that’s fact. You might not like being asked to explain why but don’t accuse the questioner of taking the p***.

In trying to understand what life would be like living under sharia law we (in the west) have few examples; they are the Taliban controlled areas and countries like Somalia. Again, you might not like the way they portray life under sharia but they don’t care what you think because they are 100% sure they have got it right. Now, because I quote them as examples of sharia and you find it uncomfortable you accuse me of taking the p*** and give me negative reps – that’s immature - and I’m being polite!
:sl:

it's like no-one read my other post...imsad

You can dress it up and dance around it all you like but it is a fact that women are not equal to men in Islam and that’s fact.
we are EQUAL, we are just not the SAME! we have different roles that are addressed by our Religion.

i remember when my wife and i were going to get married. she used to work for her brother so she could send money to Africa. she stated IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that i must allow her to continue to work after we got married. i said OK.

3 days before we got married she said that she IS DONE working! that's her right! my "right"[well one of them] is to support her. EVERYDAY [well 99% of them] that i leave for work she is already back in bed sleeping! in fact, i make my own breakfast [cuz i can do it it under 8 minutes! :D]

you are looking at everything with KAFR eyes! Islam is a way for Society to function. everyone has their role. Women have their roles and men have theirs! it's really simple.

as a KAFR, you seem to forget, that we are going to be held responsible for all of our actions and we are going to have to answer for them [in a MUCH HIGHER court than we have here!]

we don't go around seeking out which laws we must obey, we seek DEFINITIVE guidance on what is expected of us. EVEN if something SEEMS unfair, it is usually our lack of knowledge that makes it appear so.

oops, prayer time.

:w:
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crayon
03-25-2009, 05:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't think you ask difficult questions at all, I think your questions are nothing short of condescending, in which any reply given you is unsatisfactory if it doesn't cater exactly to your style thinking and in the process you don't care who you insult further go on to dictate to us (Muslim women) what we should feel about our religion or our brothers, husbands and fathers...
Exactly.

And that is the reason not many females are participating in this thread. It's not that we "are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?" (ahahahaha); we just simply can't be bothered.:)
Reply

syilla
03-25-2009, 06:46 AM
^^^yup correct. as if while we're infront of the computer our hubby or father is beating us.

:blind:
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-25-2009, 06:57 AM
My god Thinker, it sounds as if you have a daughter/wife whose converted to Islam and can’t handle it or something! talk about being paranoid and insecure!!!
Thinker, when you stop your anti Islam crap, and are genuinely willingly to ask about Islam- as opposed to just attacking- then maybe your points would actually be valid so give me even one reason as to why your points should even be taken into consideration....unless and until then, your actually only making yourself look bad and Islam look even better than it does already :shade:

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I hear what you say but I see what I see and I see the Taliban operating 'sharia' law and under that banner I see them stopping girls from attending (normal) school and making them wear the burka and many other unacceptable things.
Why don’t you go look at the rubbish rampant in your disgusting society and rectify it, before you question what happens in a Muslim one. Youmake it sound as if the west is utopia.
I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime.
looooool your pathetic attempts at undermining the Shar’ah are just that...pathetic!
what trash! You sit here insulting Islam and turn around and apparently want the best for Muslim women. Oh Please get me something i can sink my teeth into!!!
im educated and living in the 21 century (and in the west too-born and raised to be precise) and would LOVE to have such laws implemented, if you want my whole hearted opinion!
I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system.
freedoms?! oh you mean dressing like a s**t and flaunting myself in front of men to apparently gain “love and respect” and supposedly have my confidence boosted (cos apparently some of you anti Islamic airheads are under the ridiculous impression that hijaabis aren’t confident)... or maybe the freedom of leaving my new born kid in a child care and have someone else raise it whilst i work as hard as a donkey and my husband (whose meant to be my financial provider) sits on his back side at the pub not fulfilling his responsibilities as a husband and father. Ahh ya gotta love “freedom” eh!
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
There are many ‘Muslim’ countries yet there are few Muslim countries that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, there’s got to be a reason for that?
Don’t worry, relax! Its not because they think like you that Islam is out of date! Thats just your twisted reasoning of it!
I can think of only two countries/provinces, possibly three that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, Iran, Saudi (not sure) and the Taliban areas. And, from what I can see, these three countries operate their own (and different) interpretation of the law.
Their interpretation? You make it sound like you’re an Shiekh that knows the quran and sunnah like the back of his hand!

Below are a few judgements from sharia courts
“In 2002, a Nigerian Sharia court sentenced Amina Lawal to be stoned to death for having a child out of wedlock; in contrast, the man named as the father denied responsibility, and as a result, the court dropped charges against him.
“In another case, teenager Bariya Magazu asserted that she was raped by three men and became pregnant as a result. Because she had sex outside of marriage, a Sharia court sentenced her to one hundred lashes, even though seven people corroborated her story. The men accused of the rape received no punishment.
“The extreme bias against women is apparent in sentences of adultery or fornication under Sharia. A woman is convicted simply by becoming pregnant, but a man is not condemned unless four people can testify that they witnessed the normally private acts of adultery or fornication.
What islam teaches, and what Muslims do, can be completely two contradictory things! What your’re trying to prove (more or less) is that the sharia should be abolished and has no place in society! Whereas here you are pointing out the mistakes of the muslims, not islam. So your point goes down the gutter real well.
And Wow! For someone who can’t stand Islam you certainly seem to be exerting all efforts into researching it!

“Countries such as Nigeria impose flogging, stoning, or severing off a hand ... all of which are deterrent punishments for serious crimes mentioned in the (Koran).”
all those you mentioned carry strict conditions for the shariah law to actually be implemented! funny how you didn’t mention that, or did your idiot sources “conveniently” leave it out.
strange you forgot to mention that the crime for rape is the same for an adulater
The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for zina, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.
Some scholars also say that he is required to pay a mahr (dowry) to the woman.
After reading the punishment of rape, are you still gna whinge and whine that women in islam have no rights. And lets also keep in mound that a women can ask for what eeeever amount she wanted as her dowry. So she could ask for $1000000 from her rapist! Please tell me under which western law such punishments are implemented.

and also one of the three choices of punishment for murder is murder in return (i.e of the perpetrator)! are you still telling me this system is unjust!

So I ask again, can a female here tell me why they would prefer to live under a regime that operates the sharia law which clearly treats women badly.
Clearly? Clearly I take it meaning your own narrow minded interpretations of Islamic law, oh “sheikh” Thinker.. Have you even once looked in your own “back yard” and seen the “rifts” there

And Why wouldn’t I want to live under a system that states that Im not allowed into marriage without my consent or ask for a palace for a dowry if it so ticked my fancy! To have someone killed who stole my honour as a women, and gives my family the right to kill the one who killed me (if thats what they wanted). why wouldn’t i want to live under a law which ties down the father of my baby with responsibilities to financially provide, not run away had i had this baby out of wedlock *god forbid* (which is usually is the case in the west)
Why wouldn’t I want to live under a system which my children know their lineage and gives me the right to take my husbands wealth if he was stingy in providing for me and my children <--- just had to highlight it in case you “conveniently” missed it!

Why wouldn’t I want to live under a system which abolishes alcohol and drugs which have huge downsides to them-not only on the individual but on their families and the government as well! Why wouldn’t I want to live under a system which protects my honour and does not let any man use and abuse me with his perverted gaze!

I hope to god you’re still not whining and whinging!
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
There are 53 posts in this thread from male members and 1 post from a female member, what does that tell us?
What are you doing, keeping a tally or something?!...it tells us that the male members seem to have things pretty much sorted, what’s your problem!
Funny, you don’t seem to argue with muezzin when he states this
I mean one would think that such statements from a brother would’ve actually sufficed, no?

Is it likely that female members are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?
Or maybe not many sisters frequent this section!? My god! You really and truly showing your true colours now! Thank you. The more I read your posts, the more you confirm your hatred of Islam...which is why i still can’t figure out why you think your points should be taken into consideration!!!

If there was any truth that Muslim women are frightened to speak up, then O “sheikh” Thinker explain to me why a verse in the quran was revealed concerning a woman complaining about her husband mistreatment of her! And why certain women at the time of the prophet whose fathers forced them into marriage complained to The Prophet in which he declared forced marriages invalid! Let me have some more fun and mention fatwa sites which have a section specific to women, oh and lets not forget a certain imams book compilation of fatwas pertaining specifically to Muslim women!
Now what does this indicate to you! Ahh yes!* News flash, news flash* Women in Islam aren’t frightened to speak up!!!

I still haven't had an answer to my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to,
do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
Well aren’t you a hero! Mr “oh I so care for the welfare of Muslim women, yet turn around and insult their religion” you really are something! Pleeeeease get me something i can actually stomach!

And besides thats only your wife. How many other women in the west really know what they are entitled to if they divorce? Hmmm, i thought so!

After many years of trying I am still trying to understand women - why do women stay with men who beat them?
Your attempts at trying to make islam look as if it contains no womens rights are not only ridiculous and futile, But also hilarious! But at the question: Im not sure, have you actually considered asking a non-muslim western woman who faces domestic violence. Im more than sure that wouldn’t go astray!

So yeah thinker, it seems that you’re over thinking.
Though i must admit i like how you hate islam so much yet you’re oh so willing to dig out and go to extent to make Islam “look bad”, sign up to an Islamic forum and air your “caring” views. it’s a real show, really. one wouldn’t blamed for thinking you had nothing better to do! Lord...get out and smell the roses already! There's more to life than proving something that isn’t wrong to be wrong. Your efforts are just going down the drain but oh well if you wish to carry on with a pointless mission, i guess that's just a proof of your own stupidity...*tuts*
Reply

Thinker
03-25-2009, 09:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
“I can think of only two countries/provinces, possibly three that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, Iran, Saudi (not sure) and the Taliban areas. And, from what I can see, these three countries operate their own (and different) interpretation of the law.”

Their interpretation? You make it sound like you’re an Shiekh that knows the quran and sunnah like the back of his hand!
I do not hate Islam or Muslims I hate intolerance, segregation and hypocrisy. I want to live in a country that promotes freedom, tolerance and understanding. I worry about their interpretation of the sharia law and I worry that you believe that they will accept your interpretation.
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Thinker
03-25-2009, 09:57 AM
When I posed the question that started this thread I don’t think I fully realised the importance of the question. I was watching the news clip this morning which was reporting how the spread of sharia law in Pakistan was impacting upon the Pakistan community in the UK. It appears that as the Taliban push Pakistan towards a stricter (more extreme) interpretation of Islam and the sharia law, Muslims of Pakistan origin in the UK move towards that stricter interpretation and (for example as was reported) impose stricter rules on what their women can and cannot do.

So what? Bin Ladin and those that follow him want respect from the west and believe the way to get respect is to terrorise and kill. The more control they have (through the imposition of sharia law) the more they are able to radicalise those under their control, the more they radicalise the more recruits they have to kill, the more terrorist attacks there are the more the west will clamp down on Muslims in their community, that will help the radicals claim that they are oppressed and bring more recruits and it is then a downward spiral.

Some of you here that say you want sharia law believe (niaively) that if and when it comes it’ll be YOUR interpretation of sharia law and not the Taliban’s interpretation – if you believe that you are deluding yourselves.
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Thinker
03-25-2009, 10:01 AM
[QUOTE='Abd-al Latif;1115428]Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that women wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.
QUOTE]


Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.
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Muhaba
03-25-2009, 10:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Isn't witnessing mostly about memoy? The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the fist one in case she errs.
The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the first if she is wrong. The Quran didn't say the man was there to correct the women if they are wrong. this shows that the women don't need the man; they are perfectly capable to witness on their own. Still Allah ordered that there be a man there too. the witnessing of two women (without the man) is unaccaptable.
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Muhaba
03-25-2009, 10:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Ah respected Skye, I was wondering when you'd join us. . . .

Freedom . .
The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).
The freedom to send your daughter to any school you choose.
The freedom to choose your own friends, partners, husbands without being accompanied.
The freedom to marry a non-Muslim.
The freedom to work outside the home.
The freedom to work with men.
The freedom to shake a mans hand.
The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.

what about the freedom to wear hijab/niqab and cover the body including the head and face if a woman wants? in some countries, like France, women/girls aren't allwoed to go to school with head covers. isn't that an infringement on their freedom?
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Muhaba
03-25-2009, 10:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Indeed she can - but only with the permission of a man!
One reason why women aren't allowed to divorce their husbands without going to court may be that many people would force their daughters/sisters to divrce their husbands whenever there was a disagreement between the husband and the woman's family. one such case happened in UAE. a woman's father went to court asking for divorce for his daughter because he'd had an argument with her husband. the court called the daughter and asked her whether she wanted a divorce. she said no so the case was dismissed.

Additionally, the woman is supposed to return the dowry back to the husband when asking for divorce. if women could divorce men simply by saying divorce, they'd be able to take the dowry with them and then divorce the husband, which would be unfair to the husbands. many women would marry to get a dowry, then divroce the husband and leave with the dowry.
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جوري
03-25-2009, 12:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker


Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.
can you divorce yourself in any country without a third party present? further would you like to equally touch on the view of divorce in Christian marriages (the dominant religion of the west) compared to Sharia marriages?

all the best
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
03-25-2009, 01:04 PM
[quote=Thinker;1115590]
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that women wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.
QUOTE]


Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.
Here is the thread relating to divorce.


http://www.islamicboard.com/family-s...ml#post1115632
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'Abd-al Latif
03-25-2009, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I do not hate Islam or Muslims I hate intolerance, segregation and hypocrisy.
Segregation is necessary and infact obligatory.

How often do you see fights in bars and clubs, because a man stares at anothers girlfriend for too long?

How many times have families been broken and societies corrupted because of adultery? And all of this starts by a single look!

How many times have babies been born not knowning either their father, or their mother or both?

How often have women been sexually abused, harrassed, stalked on and had their privacy invaded by the perverts in society?

Who in the end complains about all of this? Women. And who is there in a non-segrageted society to protect them?

Islam seeks to protect all of this. How often do you hear of child molestation, perversion, illegal sexual relations etc from Muslim lands?!

Non-Segregated societies have signed a contract for their own distruction, and we see it all the time in the media about all the above mentioned and those are the same people who turn a blind eye as if it never happened.

And still after all of this, it's the men of such societies who complain that there should be no segragation!
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Muezzin
03-25-2009, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Some of you here that say you want sharia law believe (niaively) that if and when it comes it’ll be YOUR interpretation of sharia law and not the Taliban’s interpretation – if you believe that you are deluding yourselves.
People have said they would only accept the true form of Sharia, not a slanted version as the Taliban would like to see in action, which is not at all the same as what you're suggesting people think. I would not call that naive, but if it is, so be it. I am not afraid of words. I am puzzled as to why you keep distorting the words of people on this thread however.

No doubt you will ignore this message entirely in order to subsequently put words into every participants' mouth.
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Chuck
03-25-2009, 01:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.
Are you a slow thinker or what? :D J/K or maybe not ;]

Anyway, but in Islam wife (or ex-wife) can take living expenses even after divorce. Thats what the mother of one of my friend did. Lot of people don't pay attention to that verse in the Quran but it is there. Same rule is not for the husband.
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Thinker
03-25-2009, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
can you divorce yourself in any country without a third party present? further would you like to equally touch on the view of divorce in Christian marriages (the dominant religion of the west) compared to Sharia marriages?

all the best


I believe that in divorce in the UK there is absolute equality to both parties except that the mother is more likely to get custody of children too young to be given the choice. I don't know how Christianity handles it.

I think we're drifting off the point a little - the point being that sharia law restricts the freedoms and rights of women and divorce is an example of how.

I am not sure where you're going with a third party being present - my understanding (gleaned from IsalmQ&A) is that in sharia law, a Muslim man can divorce his wife simply by telling her she's divorced whereas a wife cannot divorce her husband without his permission or by proving (presumably to the sharia court) that he has failed in his Islamic obligations. That inequality is (IMHO) another example of the restriction on freedoms and rights.

Finally, in the UK (and I believe in every other 'western' country) the divorced couple split the assets equally whereas the Muslim divorced wife gets nothing other than her dowry and whatever else she's acquired. As Islam promotes the idea that the wife's place is in the home raising children and the husbands place is to work it is likely that most Muslim husbands will have accumulated greater wealth than the wife. That I think is unfair to women but I will not argue with those Muslims who think it is fair. I consequently asked the question – will Muslim women living in the west take only what sharia entitles them to when they divorce.

Although I would not agree, I think Muslims could argue that sharia treats men and women fairly on the basis that they believe it is fair I think it would be impossible to argue that it treats men and women as equals.
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Thinker
03-25-2009, 02:18 PM
[QUOTE='Abd-al Latif;1115637]
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

Here is the thread relating to divorce.


http://www.islamicboard.com/family-s...ml#post1115632
Thank you I have read the thread and I could find nothing there that contradicted anything I have said on divorce. If I missed something I’d be grateful if you could point me to it.

Thanks again
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Azy
03-25-2009, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
once we are done you'll end up googling third party info to make a case for yourself..
and here we go:

I found a nice summary of the work mentioned at the bottom of this post.
APS Review

"Specific results indicated that women excelled in verbal episodic memory tasks, such as remembering words, objects, pictures or everyday events, and men outperformed women in remembering symbolic, non-linguistic information, known as visuospatial processing. For example, the results indicate a man would be more likely to remember his way out of the woods."

I think that would qualify a woman to be at least as good a witness to a contract as a man.

Helitz, A. & Rehnman, J., 2008. Sex Differences in Episodic Memory. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 17(1), pp.52-56.

(Also like the fact that one of the authors is called 'Rehnman')
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'Abd-al Latif
03-25-2009, 02:42 PM
[quote=Thinker;1115663]
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif

Thank you I have read the thread and I could find nothing there that contradicted anything I have said on divorce. If I missed something I’d be grateful if you could point me to it.

Thanks again
What do you mean?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-25-2009, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
and here we go:

I found a nice summary of the work mentioned at the bottom of this post.
APS Review

"Specific results indicated that women excelled in verbal episodic memory tasks, such as remembering words, objects, pictures or everyday events, and men outperformed women in remembering symbolic, non-linguistic information, known as visuospatial processing. For example, the results indicate a man would be more likely to remember his way out of the woods."

I think that would qualify a woman to be at least as good a witness to a contract as a man.

Helitz, A. & Rehnman, J., 2008. Sex Differences in Episodic Memory. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 17(1), pp.52-56.

(Also like the fact that one of the authors is called 'Rehnman')
Rehnman doesn't sound like a Muslim name, I think you've mixed it up with 'Rahman' or 'Rahim'.
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Thinker
03-25-2009, 02:46 PM
[QUOTE='Abd-al Latif;1115668]
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

What do you mean?
Sorry, I thought you were directing me to read that thread because it contained something that contradicted something I'd said :-[
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'Abd-al Latif
03-25-2009, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Sorry, I thought you were directing me to read that thread because it contained something that contradicted something I'd said :-[
I wanted to give you the general Islamic rulings, but as I said the rulings are much more comprehensive then what i've pasted on that thread.
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crayon
03-25-2009, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
what about the freedom to wear hijab/niqab and cover the body including the head and face if a woman wants? in some countries, like France, women/girls aren't allwoed to go to school with head covers. isn't that an infringement on their freedom?
I'd love to see an answer to this...
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Azy
03-25-2009, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Rehnman doesn't sound like a Muslim name, I think you've mixed it up with 'Rahman' or 'Rahim'.



(Sorry Muezzin, but I wet myself when I saw your post)
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aadil77
03-25-2009, 03:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You gave me negative reps accusing me of taking the p***.

and I’m being polite!
Lol :laugh:, don't cry over the reps, yh I did say you're taking the pis because you are, making us discuss things over and over again and being totally ignorant = takin the pis

And don't lie, you're not trying to be polite and you're not trying to understand anything, what you are trying to do is making us look bad and uncivilised, which ain't gonna flow here
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جوري
03-25-2009, 04:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I believe that in divorce in the UK there is absolute equality to both parties except that the mother is more likely to get custody of children too young to be given the choice. I don't know how Christianity handles it.
I disagree, When I was in England a friend of mine was trying to get a divorce and her two timing husband tried all he could by way of smear campaigns to ruin her reputation as well to get custody of the kids.. I personally thought they were both pathetic but it isn't all roses and peaches as you'd so like us to believe!

I think we're drifting off the point a little - the point being that sharia law restricts the freedoms and rights of women and divorce is an example of how.
Proper shari3a law doesn't restrict the freedom rights of women, compare to inability to be granted divorce whatsoever in the church by being excommunicated amongst other things like the question of whether or not women had souls or were akin to animals, or having to pay alimony to your husband by civil courts if your income is higher than his. Take someone like Britney spears for example.. not only did her bottom feeder of a husband get custody of the kids even though in my eyes they were also both equally pathetic but she had to pay him given that she had more money. Not the case at all in Islam. A woman no matter how rich gets to keep her money and her kids and the man no matter how poor must support them! Do some reading before writing!
and really question at all.. "how long have you been civilized' as a society if at all?


I am not sure where you're going with a third party being present - my understanding (gleaned from IsalmQ&A) is that in sharia law, a Muslim man can divorce his wife simply by telling her she's divorced whereas a wife cannot divorce her husband without his permission or by proving (presumably to the sharia court) that he has failed in his Islamic obligations. That inequality is (IMHO) another example of the restriction on freedoms and rights.
Yes I believe you didn't actually read half of what you quoted, given that from one of your very sources I quoted you the opposite opinion from what you were alleging. try to scroll back and read responses given you and if you'd be so kind as to read what you quote before posting it, that way you'd save yourself and everyone else alot of time
Finally, in the UK (and I believe in every other 'western' country) the divorced couple split the assets equally whereas the Muslim divorced wife gets nothing other than her dowry and whatever else she's acquired. As Islam promotes the idea that the wife's place is in the home raising children and the husbands place is to work it is likely that most Muslim husbands will have accumulated greater wealth than the wife. That I think is unfair to women but I will not argue with those Muslims who think it is fair. I consequently asked the question – will Muslim women living in the west take only what sharia entitles them to when they divorce.
A woman's dowry is what she chooses and could be in the upwards of millions try to compare that to a system that imposes a prenuptial to limit the wife's earnings in case of a divorce, also and see my above analogy on Britney spears and co.
Although I would not agree, I think Muslims could argue that sharia treats men and women fairly on the basis that they believe it is fair I think it would be impossible to argue that it treats men and women as equals.
Again, I think you are unable to distinguish equality and sameness. In Islam men and women are equal, their roles are different


The Condition of Women before Islam

Islam came at a time when women all over the world were being oppressed and exploited. The most any society would accord the woman was to admit that she was part of the human race. They never admitted her dignity or gave her rights and responsibilities equal to those of men. The Greeks considered her to be an object of pleasure and amusement. This view was articulated in the classical texts most unambiguously:
We take prostitutes for pleasure, lovers to care for our daily health, and wives to give us legitimate children. The Romans gave the father and husband the right to sell her to whomever they pleased. The Arabs gave the son the right to inherit the wife of his father (not his own mother) just like he would inherit his father’s wealth and his steed! That is if she were lucky enough not to have been buried alive at birth. This was the case with the rest of the world’s societies at that time, like those of the Persians and the Hindus.
Women remained in this horrible state without protesting or rebelling against it. No one else was to do so either. Nor were there any social or economic developments that would require a betterment of her status.
Then Islam came, proclaiming her rights and her equality with men. It established for her all of her rights to bring her out of the miserable state that she was in and elevate her to the noble status that she deserves.
How did this happen?
Equality Between Men and Women in Islam

Islam establishes the principle of equality between men and women in all aspects of life that they are equal in, because both of them are equally human. It does however distinguishes between them in some areas, taking into consideration the natural differences between them and the special qualities that each of them has.
Equality between men and women in Islam is derived from the following considerations:
Equality in their human origins:

Islam conclusively establishes that all human beings have a common origin. This fact is mentioned in many verses of the Quran:
O Mankind, fear your Lord who created you from a single soul and created from it its mate and brought forth from the two of them many men and women.

O Mankind, verily we created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes so you may know one another. Verily the most honorable of you with Allah are the most righteous.

Equality in their common destiny:

Islam also establishes that all of mankind is going to return to Allah who created them, and everyone – male and female – is going to be recompensed for his or her worldly deeds. They will receive well if they did good and they will be requited with evil if they did evil. Allah says:
And every one of you will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection.

A human being will have nothing except for what he does. And his deeds will be seen. Then he will be recompensed fully.

So their Lord accepted of them their supplication and answered them: ‘I will never allow the work of any of you to be lost, male or female. You are from each other.

Whoever works righteousness as a believer, whether male or female, we will truly give a good life and We shall pay them a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do.

Women's Rights in Islam

We should point out that human rights in Islam are not merely rights but are religious obligations. This means that it is obligatory for every person to protect them and restore them if they are taken away. It is equally obligatory upon society to make sure that every individual can enjoy his or her rights to the fullest.
Islam has secured for the woman every human right. This includes her intellectual, religious, social, economic and political rights.
Intellectual and Religious Rights

Islam has guaranteed every man and woman the right to think and believe as they choose. It considers thinking and investigating to be an obligation upon every human being. There are numerous verses in the Quran that encourage people to think about and investigate the phenomena both in the world around them and in the wonder of life itself. Allah says:
Do they not look in the dominion of the heavens and the Earth and all the things that Allah has created?”

Say (O Muhammad): “Behold all that is in the Heavens and the Earth.’ But neither signs nor warners benefit those who do not believe.”

Say: “‘Travel in the land and see how Allah originated Creation.”

Say (O Muhammad): “I exhort you to one thing only: that you stand up for Allah’s sake together and individually and reflect: there is no madness in your companion (Muhammad).”

As for the right to one’s own belief, Islam has guaranteed it and forbidden anyone to compel another to change his or her belief. Allah says:
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the true path is clearly distinct from error.

So, will you (O Muhammad) then compel mankind so they will become believers?

You (O Muhammad) are merely a warner. You are not a dictator over them.

The Quran threatens those who persecute believing men and women in order to turn them from their faith:

Verily those who persecute the believing men and women and then do not turn to Allah in repentance, they will have the punishment of Hell, and they will have the punishment of the Fire.

From all of these texts, the independent religious identity of the woman becomes quite clear. No one else can impose upon her what she should believe. She must, of her own free will, decide what to believe. Allah says:
O you who believe, if believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah knows best their faith. Then, if you ascertain that they are true believers, do not send them back to the disbelievers.

O Prophet, if believing women come to you to give you their pledge that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah, nor steal, nor commit fornication, nor kill their children, nor commit slander, nor forge falsehood (to making illegitimate children belong to their husbands), nor disobey you in goodness, then accept their pledge and ask Allah to forgive them. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

O wives of the Prophet! Whoever of you commits manifest lewdness will have a double punishment. This is easy for Allah. And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger and works righteous deeds will be given a double reward.

When Islam came, women accepted Islam and made the emigration to Madinah, even though their fathers, husbands, and the rest of their male relatives remained disbelievers. Umm Habîbah, the daughter of Abû Sufyan, accepted Islam and emigrated in spite of the fact that her father was one of the leaders of the disbelievers. Even when her husband abandoned Islam, she remained steadfast in her belief.
Fatimah, the daughter of al-Khattab, became Muslim before her brother `Umar did and was the cause for him accepting Islam, because of her faith and because she stood up to him when he found out about her becoming a Muslim and wanted to abuse her.
Umm Kulthûm, the daughter of `Uqbah b. Abî Mu`ît, accepted Islam and emigrated in spite of the fact that every member of her family remained polytheists.
There were many women who accepted Islam and were the reasons for their husbands accepting Islam. Umm Sulaym – the wife of Abû Talhah al-Ansarî – and Umm Hakîm bint Huzam – the wife of `Ikrimah b. Abî Jahl – were among these women.
Social and Economic Rights

Not only does Islam recognize her right to think and believe as she likes, it considers her to be an active member of society who can make a valuable contribution. Islam, therefore, secures for her many rights, including the right to an education, the right to own property and to use it at her own discretion, and the right to work.
The right to an education:

In Islam, seeking knowledge is a religious duty upon every man and woman. This is because knowledge is integral to Islamic life. In the light of knowledge, a person’s eyes are opened. This person can then worship the Lord with proper insight and understanding. Allah says:
Read in the name of your Lord who created. Who created the human being from a clot. Read, and your Lord is the Most Generous. Who taught by the pen. Who taught the human being what he knew not.
Knowledge is a gift from Allah to every human being. Consequently, it is a right granted to all. No man or woman may be barred from it. The woman’s right to knowledge is exactly the same as a man’s. She must know the teachings of her religion and may acquire a deep understanding thereof. The verse mentioned above is addressed to all humanity, ordering them to read and to learn. It was the first verse of the Quran to be revealed. It does not differentiate between men and women.
This is what the woman enjoyed since the first days of Islam’s history. Women used to compete with men in attaining knowledge at the mosque and at the houses of Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him). Their strong desire for knowledge made the women ask the Messenger (peace be upon him) to set aside a special day for teaching them, above and beyond the general lessons that were open to women and men alike. Allah’s Messenger did, in fact, set aside a special day to remind them and to teach them.
Due to the care given by the women and the attention to knowledge given by Islam, many great scholars, jurists, writers, and poets appeared among the women during the era of the Companions and the Successors, and during every era of Islamic history.
The right to own and dispose of property:

This is established by the Quran in many of its verses. Allah says:
Men have a share of what they earn and women have a share of what they earn.

Men have a share of what their parents and relatives leave behind, and women have a share of what their parents and relatives leave behind, whether the estate be small or large – a legal share.

And give to the women their dowries with a good heart; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it without fear.

There is consensus among the scholars of Islam that all economic activities of a woman, like buying, selling, leasing, giving gifts, and giving collateral, are legally valid and that she has a completely independent economic existence.
The right to work:

In Islam, a woman can practice any occupation that she chooses, as long as that occupation is lawfully permitted for men and women to engage in. There is no restriction placed upon her in this. From the dawn of Islam, women engaged in many occupations such as commerce, agriculture, and manufacturing.
A woman came to Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) and said to him: “I am a woman who engages in buying and selling.” She then asked him for the legal rulings pertaining to some of the commercial transactions that she used to engage in.
Another woman came to him complaining that one of the men forbade her from working on her farm. Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “Go work your date palms; for perhaps you might give some charity or do acts of righteousness.”
The right to inheritance:

When Islam established inheritance for the woman, it was the first time in history that women were able to enjoy this right. The Quran establishes for her this right in a number of its texts. Allah says:
Men have a share of what their parents and relatives leave behind, and women have a share of what their parents and relatives leave behind, whether the estate be small or large – a legal share.

Allah commands you regarding your children’s (inheritance): to the male a portion equal to that of two females; if there are only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is half. For parents, a sixth share for each if the deceased left children. If there are no children and they are the only heirs, the mother has a third…
You have half of what your wives leave if they have no children, but if they leave a child, then you receive a fourth of that which they leave after payment of legacies that they may have bequeathed or debts. They have a fourth of what you leave behind if you leave no child, but if you leave a child, they receive an eighth of that which you leave after payment of legacies that you may have bequeathed or debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question has left no other heirs, but has left a brother or a sister, each one (if no more than two) gets a sixth, but if they are more than two, they share in a third.
If a man dies leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance. If the deceased is a woman who left no child, then her brother inherits from her. If they are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance…
The right to marry:

Islam establishes for the woman the right to have a choice as to whom she will share her life with. Allah says:
And do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands if they mutually agree on a reasonable basis.
When have fulfilled their term (of waiting after the death of their husbands), there is no sin on you if they if they dispose of themselves in a reasonable manner.
Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “A previously married woman has more rights over herself, and a virgin must have her permission sought.”
There are cases where Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) annulled the marriages of women who were married against their will.
Political Rights

In spite of the newness of this terminology, we find, if we review the Islamic texts and look back on the experience of the early Muslim societies, that Islam has established for the woman rights that can be labeled political rights. Among these are the following:
The right to give consultation:

There are many verses in the Quran that establish the principle that Muslim affairs, in general, are to be based on mutual consultation. It is the business of the Muslims to exchange opinions and consult each other on these matters. Allah says:
And consult them in the affairs.
And their affairs are by mutual consultation.
These general texts pertain equally to both men and women.
We find that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) would consult his wives on issues of general import. For example, he consulted with Umm Salamah on the occasion where he had ordered his Companions to shave their heads and come out of their pilgrim state at Hudaybiyah. They did not do so, because they hated turning away from Mecca without making pilgrimage to it. She advised him to shave his own head and sacrifice, so he did so and all the others hurried to follow suit. He then praised her and commended her for her keen intellect.
We find that the group of people led by `Abd al-Rahman b. `Awf who were active in selecting `Uthman as Caliph was comprised of both men and women, whereby “they came to the ladies in their private rooms to seek their consultation with regards to selecting `Uthman.” This is what we find in the historical source works. It indicates to us that even those women who remained concealed in their dwellings were consulted on the matter.
Emigration and giving allegiance:

Muslim women emigrated to Abyssinia and to Madinah. This emigration was equivalent to what we refer to today as seeking political asylum.
This was a time when the Muslims were being oppressed in Mecca and were forbidden from expressing their views and calling to their faith. They emigrated, seeking a place where they would be afforded the opportunity to practice their rites and express their beliefs. The first place the Muslims chose to go to was Abyssinia, because at that time it was ruled by a king who never oppressed anyone in his domain.
Muslim women emigrated during this time, sometimes unaccompanied, like Umm Kulthûm bint `Uqbah b. Abî Mu`ît and Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with them both) did during the women’s emigration. This is mentioned in the Quran:
O you who believe, if believing women come to you as emigrants, test them.

As for the oath of allegiance, it is a political and religious pact between the Muslims and Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) that is an expression of their faith in the Messenger and their political affiliation with his cause. The following verse talks about the oath of allegiance given by women:
O Prophet, if believing women come to you to give you their pledge that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah, nor steal, nor commit fornication, nor kill their children, nor commit slander, nor forge falsehood (to make illegitimate children belong to their husbands), nor disobey you in goodness, then accept their pledge and ask Allah to forgive them. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
This list includes a clause of political significance: “nor disobey you in goodness...”
Enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong:

The Quran has established the role of the believing women in enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong. Allah says:
The believers, men and women, are protectors of one another; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong.

This duty, just as it includes the responsibility to rectify social ills, also has political dimensions that manifest themselves in giving advice and admonition to those holding political power.
As for military combat, Islam has not made it obligatory upon the woman, but it is permissible for her to participate in the war effort, usually as a noncombatant with duties like getting water to the fighters and tending to the wounded. In spite of this, in some battles, women saw combat. Umm Sulaym al-Ansariyyah defended Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) during the battle of Uhud and was wounded about ten times.


http://www.ediscoverislam.com/About-...ights-in-islam
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Thinker
03-25-2009, 04:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
I'd love to see an answer to this...
what about the freedom to wear hijab/niqab and cover the body including the head and face if a woman wants? in some countries, like France, women/girls aren't allwoed to go to school with head covers. isn't that an infringement on their freedom?



France since the revolution has always been a secular society and like Turkey bans religious symbols in public places. Is that breaching the individuals human rights/freedoms; I suppose it is but we do that all the time for various reasons not least because its what the majority want. France is a democracy and all the citizens have a right to vote and they voted to ban it.

Next we come to the question that occurred in the UK when a Muslim girl went for an interview for a job as a teaching assistant. During the interview she not veiled. She was given the job and wanted to wear the niqab. She was told that children need to see the face of their teacher. She objected because there was male teachers in the school. She was sacked. Did that infringe her freedom to wear the niqab?
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جوري
03-25-2009, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
and here we go:

I found a nice summary of the work mentioned at the bottom of this post.
APS Review

"Specific results indicated that women excelled in verbal episodic memory tasks, such as remembering words, objects, pictures or everyday events, and men outperformed women in remembering symbolic, non-linguistic information, known as visuospatial processing. For example, the results indicate a man would be more likely to remember his way out of the woods."

I think that would qualify a woman to be at least as good a witness to a contract as a man.

Helitz, A. & Rehnman, J., 2008. Sex Differences in Episodic Memory. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 17(1), pp.52-56.

(Also like the fact that one of the authors is called 'Rehnman')
ummmm. how is that different from my stating that a woman's hippocampus (A complex neural structure (shaped like a sea horse) consisting of grey matter and located on the floor of each lateral ventricle; intimately involved in motivation and emotion as part of the limbic system; has a central role in the formation of memories) is bigger than a man's while a man's frontal cortex is bigger? do you take what I write, google it and come back with an aha? what is your point? I have already stated as much plus maintained the excutive decision memory center is different from that of the emotive one found in the limbic system...

what you qualify is otherwise incosequential to me, I find you to be a minute google scholar and have proven as much with every other post starting with your hilarious first one on sickle cell trait!

Do you want to tickle me or just enjoy the public disgrace?
Reply

Azy
03-25-2009, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
ummmm. how is that different from my stating that a woman's hippocampus...
The work shows that women are better then men at remembering events and linguistic constructs, both of which make them more suitable as witnesses to a contract.
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جوري
03-25-2009, 04:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
The work shows that women are better then men at remembering events and linguistic constructs, both of which make them more suitable as witnesses to a contract.
You keep stating and re-stating something I have already covered posts ago, to re-quote my self:

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer Skye
male and female minds work differently.. you should read



it is written by a female doctor.. after reading it, you'll see that in fact women have a bigger hippocampus than men where as men have a bigger frontal brain. I'll argue that women have a better memory than men, but men are better at executive decisions.

So basically you have taken what I have written then added your own conclusion which you are not qualified to make under any circumstance either theological or a scientific as I have so maintained the memories of the executive decision making frontal brain differ from those of the hippocampus!

all the best
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Azy
03-25-2009, 04:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
So basically you have taken what I have written then added your own conclusion which you are not qualified to make under any circumstance either theological or a scientific as I have so maintained the memories of the executive decision making frontal brain differ from those of the hippocampus!
Why do you consider being a witness to a contract to be a decision making event?
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Azy
03-25-2009, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Rehnman doesn't sound like a Muslim name, I think you've mixed it up with 'Rahman' or 'Rahim'.
It sounds like 'Rain Man'.
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جوري
03-25-2009, 04:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Why do you consider being a witness to a contract to be a decision making event?
Because there are numbers involved in contracts and men are better at math even if the better is of small percentage!

- The difference in average quantitative abilities of boys and girls is very small, but "what sets boys apart is that many more of them are mathematically gifted."

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs...-and-engineers

further studies show that

More women suffer from Alzheimer’s disease than men, and it’s not just because they live longer. They also have a much greater risk than men for contracting type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and other diseases caused by a defective metabolic and immune system. Premenopausal women recover from stroke sooner and with less disability than men of the same age or postmenopausal women.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...fferences.html

all the best!
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Azy
03-25-2009, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Because there are numbers involved in contracts and men are better at math even if the better is of small percentage!
The mere presence of numbers does not make it a decision making situation for the witnesses.

By your logic is it not just as valid to say that because the specific wording of the contract to determine it's intent is as important as the numbers used to describe the contracted quantities, the witnesses would ideally consist of 1 man (to recall the numbers) and 1 woman (to recall the words)?
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جوري
03-25-2009, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
The mere presence of numbers does not make it a decision making situation for the witnesses.
That is not for you to decide given you don't know the chronological list of related debits of any contract!

By your logic is it not just as valid to say that because the specific wording of the contract to determine it's intent is as important as the numbers used to describe the contracted quantities, the witnesses would ideally consist of 1 man (to recall the numbers) and 1 woman (to recall the words)?
See above reply and use your wit only where it will be slightly amusing, I'd go for those who share your plane and passion for mediocrity!

all the best
Reply

Chuck
03-25-2009, 05:43 PM
Men normally don't get pregnant:
Study: Pregnant Women More Forgetful

If you're pregnant and you've been a little forgetful lately, here's why:

A study conducted by Australian scientists has confirmed what many mothers have suspected: Carrying a baby can make you more forgetful.

Research has found that a woman's memory can be impaired for at least a year after giving birth, although the effects are minor and mainly concern unfamiliar or demanding tasks.

"The memory deficits many women experience during and after pregnancy are pretty much like the modest deficits you'd find when comparing healthy 20-year-olds with healthy 60-year-olds," researcher Julie Henry said.

The Australian study analysed the results of 14 different studies from around the world which tested the memory performances of more than 1,000 pregnant women, mothers and non-pregnant women.

It found that pregnant women performed significantly worse on some, but not all aspects of the test.

The hardest tests for the pregnant women were those which involved new or difficult tasks.

"Regular, well-practiced memory tasks - such as remembering phone numbers of friends and family members - are unlikely to be affected," said the Australian Catholic University's Associate Professor Peter Rendell, who conducted the study with Henry.

"It's a different story, though, when you have to remember new phone numbers, people's names or hold in mind several different pieces of information, such as when multi-tasking."

This study was published in the Journal of Clinical and Experimental Neuropsychology.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...nt_memory.html
Reply

Thinker
03-25-2009, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
you're not trying to be polite and you're not trying to understand anything, what you are trying to do is making us look bad and uncivilised, which ain't gonna flow here
Are you suggesting that questioning aspects of or interpretations of the sharia law makes Muslims look bad and uncivilised?
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Whatsthepoint
03-25-2009, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Because there are numbers involved in contracts and men are better at math even if the better is of small percentage!

- The difference in average quantitative abilities of boys and girls is very small, but "what sets boys apart is that many more of them are mathematically gifted."

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs...-and-engineers

further studies show that

More women suffer from Alzheimer’s disease than men, and it’s not just because they live longer. They also have a much greater risk than men for contracting type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and other diseases caused by a defective metabolic and immune system. Premenopausal women recover from stroke sooner and with less disability than men of the same age or postmenopausal women.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...fferences.html

all the best!
You are terribly inconsistent.
First it was ulterior motives, then decion making and now maths.
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جوري
03-25-2009, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You are terribly inconsistent.
First it was ulterior motives, then decion making and now maths.
'ulterior motives is my own feelings on the matter' if you'll scroll you'll see I have included "I personally wouldn't want women as witness for or against me" and included my reasons.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
if I were being tried by Shari3a law, I WOULDN'T WANT WOMEN AT ALL as witness for or against me, It might sound sexist against my own kind.. but it really takes alot for a female to be purely objective and non- emotive.. the fact that it is two at all is actually sort of consoling..
What is in the Quran or of divine origin differs from my opinion. opinions don't count in Jurisprudence but on an individual level!

other than that any inconsistency you feel is perhaps a reading and comprehension impediment on your part everything I have written flows, even the epiphany that seems to have struck your pal one page ago, I had introduced quite a few pages back!


all the best
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-25-2009, 07:06 PM
Ok, to return to my original question which you still haven't answered.
Two additional women are required in fields where men tend to excel over women. So in such cases men are favored over women (based on general differences, statistics etc).
And here's the question:
Why aren't women favored the same way in areas they tend to excel over men?
Reply

جوري
03-25-2009, 07:08 PM
^^^ who said? I believe I have quoted you quite a large article where the testimony of one woman expert in her field is enough period!
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Whatsthepoint
03-25-2009, 07:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
^^^ who said? I believe I have quoted you quite a large article where the testimony of one woman expert in her field is enough period!
Individual cases!
I am asking why there is no general rule, as there is for men?
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جوري
03-25-2009, 07:21 PM
I have no idea what you are driving at? I couldn't have been more clear..

all the best
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Whatsthepoint
03-25-2009, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have no idea what you are driving at? I couldn't have been more clear..

all the best
I'm talking about general rules and you're talking about individual cases.
I am driving at the fact that Islam favors male witnesses in fields they're supposedly better than men, yet it doesn't favor women in fields they outpower men.
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جوري
03-25-2009, 07:39 PM
and I believe I have told you repeatedly as a 'general rule' that if a female is an expert in her field then she is enough.. I am not sure what else you want? furthermore this isn't about favoring one party over another.. this is about establishing justice for the parties involved. The favor you seek to induce here is but of your own yearnings.. no where in the verse is the term 'favored' mentioned!


all the best
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Whatsthepoint
03-25-2009, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
and I believe I have told you repeatedly as a 'general rule' that if a female is an expert in her field then she is enough.. I am not sure what else you want? furthermore this isn't about favoring one party over another.. this is about establishing justice for the parties involved. The favor you seek to induce here is but of your own yearnings.. no where in the verse is the term 'favored' mentioned!


all the best
It doesn't have to be mentiond by name. If I recall correctly, the bit about female witnesses who are experts in their fields isn't mentioned by name in the Quran or the Sunnah either.
Yes, both male and female experts' testimony is enough, but only men are favored in a field they generally outperform women in.
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Muhaba
03-25-2009, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok, to return to my original question which you still haven't answered.
Two additional women are required in fields where men tend to excel over women. So in such cases men are favored over women (based on general differences, statistics etc).
And here's the question:
Why aren't women favored the same way in areas they tend to excel over men?
The Quran was revealed according to circumstances. For example, the verses dealing with men slandering women. those verses don't say that if women slandered men, they'd have to bring four witnesses or would be flogged 80 lashes but the law has been extended them.
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جوري
03-25-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It doesn't have to be mentiond by name.
yeah it needs to be mentioned by name, Islamic jurisprudence isn't subject to your whims or what you'd like to see in it.
If I recall correctly, the bit about female witnesses who are experts in their fields isn't mentioned by name in the Quran or the Sunnah either.
Must be mentioned in sunna else where from would the scholars come up with one woman expert in her field?
google some of Ansar's old posts and you'll find plenty such incidents!

Yes, both male and female experts' testimony is enough, but only men are favored in a field they generally outperform women in.
Again your useage of the term 'favored' is faulty and neither confirms to the truth or what is plainly mentioned. It is about keeping accurate record. If you'll read the Quran specifically suret Ar'Rahman you'd see keeping justice to the scale mentioned repeatedly in the beginning of the chapter not once not twice but thrice.. it must not denote favor, rather supreme importance?!

Media Tags are no longer supported

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Whatsthepoint
03-25-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
yeah it needs to be mentioned by name, Islamic jurisprudence isn't subject to your whims or what you'd like to see in it.

Must be mentioned in sunna else where from would the scholars come up with one woman expert in her field?
google some of Ansar's old posts and you'll find plenty such incidents!


Again your useage of the term 'favored' is faulty and neither confirms to the truth or what is plainly mentioned. It is about keeping accurate record. If you'll read the Quran specifically suret Ar'Rahman you'd see keeping justice to the scale mentioned repeatedly in the beginning of the chapter not once not twice but thrice.. it must not denote favor, rather supreme importance?!

Eh...
Have a nice day, skye, and all the best.:)
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KAding
03-25-2009, 09:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Hi KAding, A degree of moderation? Please elaborate! I would have thought that if Shari'ah is moderated, then it is no longer Shari'ah, no?

Regards
I'm probably just going to repeat myself here, but, hey, that has never hurt anyone (as far as I know anyway) :).

Only God knows the true nature of the Sha'ria, as humans it would seem to me we can only try to implement it as best as we can. In the end the Sha'ria will have to be implemented and run by human beings. Human beings that are either inclined towards moderation or towards more 'fundamentalist' interpretations. This is simply the nature of men and the nature of human culture.

There might well be just 'one' Islam and 'one' Shar'ia theologically, but in the end every human will put different accents and even make different calls on what Islamic law does or does not forbid, discourage or allow. Never mind the fact that EVERY political and judicial system will have to make compromises to function in the chaos that is human society and civilization (or the lack thereof!). There will always be pressures on such systems towards degree of pragmatism, when practical concerns will trump dogmatism/idealism.
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alcurad
03-25-2009, 11:38 PM
the shari'a is dogmatic in that it is based on dogma, however that dogma itself is pragmatic. people's interpretations are going to differ, and that is allowed regardless of how many object/ed.
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-26-2009, 06:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muhaba
what about the freedom to wear hijab/niqab and cover the body including the head and face if a woman wants? in some countries, like France, women/girls aren't allwoed to go to school with head covers. isn't that an infringement on their freedom?
no apparently that's called democracy!

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I do not hate Islam or Muslims I hate intolerance, segregation and hypocrisy. I want to live in a country that promotes freedom, tolerance and understanding.
I worry about their interpretation of the sharia law and I worry that you believe that they will accept your interpretation.
Ya gna have to try alot harder to have me buy that one! You don’t hate Muslims and Islam as long as it conforms to how you believe it should be. Thats your prob, you want muslims to live by islam, the way you want it, not the way it is. For people like you, islam is your way or the highway. thats the loop whole you have right there! its not about the shariah laws being implemented in your counties. we are talking about the shariah being implemented in muslim countries! so kindly enlighten me as to what business what happens in a Muslim counties. if you dont like it, just rack off! not rocket science now is it.
if that was truly the case, than you would let us live by our laws without questioning them! not only that, you don't even have the proper integrity to genuinely reach such understanding/tolerance, etc. if that's what you were really after , then you would have posted in the "learn about Islam/discover Islam sections, not the owrld affairs!!! and who are you accusing of hypocrisy, and lack of understanding?! above all, you would first and foremost question your own society where sometimes animals seem to have more rights than humans!
oh sorry of course, you love islam and muslims!!!


Some of you here that say you want sharia law believe (niaively) that if and when it comes it’ll be YOUR interpretation of sharia law and not the Taliban’s interpretation – if you believe that you are deluding yourselves.
our understanding?! so now not having the Taliban understanding of the shariah is equated to our own understanding!
above all i bet half these sources that you quote dont even mentioned the reality! god knows what the story really is!
Muslims of Pakistan origin in the UK move towards that stricter interpretation and (for example as was reported) impose stricter rules on what their women can and cannot do.
i dont get what your point is! we have been going over this for past how many pages now :$

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Are you suggesting that questioning aspects of or interpretations of the sharia law makes Muslims look bad and uncivilised?
....there's a fine line between questioning and attacking!
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Thinker
03-26-2009, 10:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
....there's a fine line between questioning and attacking!
I say I have questioned aspects of sharia law; you say I have attacked it. Attack is an emotive word with meanings ranging from a violent physical assault to work with purpose or even criticise strongly. If you mean by criticising something strongly I have attacked some interpretations of sharia law I would have to agree. If you are suggesting I have attacked with hostility I would disagree. But this is semantics, the question is, before you criticised me of ‘attacking’ did you have clear focus on something in particular that I said that was said with hostility and did you take into consideration that there are multiple versions/interpretations of what is called sharia law and which version was I ‘attacking’? Or do you believe that anyone who questions any aspect of Islam is ‘attacking’? Or is it simply that the red mist of anger clouds your judgement?
Reply

Muezzin
03-26-2009, 11:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I'm probably just going to repeat myself here, but, hey, that has never hurt anyone (as far as I know anyway) :).

Only God knows the true nature of the Sha'ria, as humans it would seem to me we can only try to implement it as best as we can. In the end the Sha'ria will have to be implemented and run by human beings. Human beings that are either inclined towards moderation or towards more 'fundamentalist' interpretations. This is simply the nature of men and the nature of human culture.

There might well be just 'one' Islam and 'one' Shar'ia theologically, but in the end every human will put different accents and even make different calls on what Islamic law does or does not forbid, discourage or allow. Never mind the fact that EVERY political and judicial system will have to make compromises to function in the chaos that is human society and civilization (or the lack thereof!). There will always be pressures on such systems towards degree of pragmatism, when practical concerns will trump dogmatism/idealism.
If you read about Sharia, you'll see it's procedural like you wouldn't believe. So many criteria have to be fulfilled before the law can even come into force in a state.

However, it does indeed allow for pragmatism - as in the time of the Caliph Umar (RA) when he suspended corporal punishment for theft during a famine. It wouldn't be fair to punish people so in such circumstances.

But there's pragmatism and there's deliberate political distortions, which I readily accept certain groups will attempt in their interpretations of Sharia law.

I'm not saying when and if it comes into force, it will be the true interpretation of Sharia. I'm saying I would only accept a true interpretation of Sharia. If it's forced on a populace, it just won't work.
Reply

Al-Zaara
03-26-2009, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I say I have questioned aspects of sharia law; you say I have attacked it. Attack is an emotive word with meanings ranging from a violent physical assault to work with purpose or even criticise strongly. If you mean by criticising something strongly I have attacked some interpretations of sharia law I would have to agree. If you are suggesting I have attacked with hostility I would disagree. But this is semantics, the question is, before you criticised me of ‘attacking’ did you have clear focus on something in particular that I said that was said with hostility and did you take into consideration that there are multiple versions/interpretations of what is called sharia law and which version was I ‘attacking’? Or do you believe that anyone who questions any aspect of Islam is ‘attacking’? Or is it simply that the red mist of anger clouds your judgement?
Now in the same way, try to discuss the statement 'ignoring answers'.

This is such an tiring thread, over and over again the same statements are thrown, people don't bother. This could have been a good dialogue.
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Thinker
03-26-2009, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Now in the same way, try to discuss the statement 'ignoring answers'.

This is such an tiring thread, over and over again the same statements are thrown, people don't bother. This could have been a good dialogue.
Please forgive me if I have not responded to something you posted, it wasn't done intentionally, it was just got a little frenetic at one time and I must have missed your post - sorry:-[

. . . . .Just had a look back and I still couldn't see your post !!
Reply

Al-Zaara
03-26-2009, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Please forgive me if I have not responded to something you posted, it wasn't done intentionally, it was just got a little frenetic at one time and I must have missed your post - sorry:-[
It wasn't about me... I meant posts of other, irritated members. But thank you for being polite. I hope the above applies to most members who haven't gotten any reply to their post/s.
Reply

Danah
03-26-2009, 04:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi thanks for your views,

I read the article but I'm not sure I understood the point the author was trying to make. Is it simply that 'western women are not happy because they have too much freedom?
Well, its in your opinion a freedom, but actually its the over used by the society, western women are used like products and they are thinking that they have been given "too much freedom" as you might guess......but in reality their freedom is taken away from them because they are used by others. Its like they are not own themselves


I would like to know your view about the freedom that the woman should be given


format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi thanks for your views,
Can I ask which country you are living in?
UAE
Reply

Thinker
03-26-2009, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
western women are used like products and they are thinking that they have been given "too much freedom" as you might guess......but in reality their freedom is taken away from them because they are used by others. Its like they are not own themselves
I really don’t understand where you get this idea from. I am a native Briton and I can tell you that the law of Britain grants absolute equality between men and women and no man can compel a woman to do anything. A hundred years back a wife was the property of her husband, fifty years back the woman’s marriage vows were to love, honour and OBEY her husband. None of that exists any more and there is no law or custom that supports any person to compel or coerce any woman to do anything she didn’t want to do. If you think that women here take their clothes off (or whatever) because they are compelled by some man you are very wrong.


format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
I would like to know your view about the freedom that the woman should be given
I believe that men and women should be equal, one should not have the power to compel the other to do anything, and one should not have less freedom or less authority than the other. Without equality there is no freedom.
Reply

Thinker
03-26-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
Well, its in your opinion
I recall your earlier post and I felt your anger towards me which I believe is unjustified. I started this thread with a question after watching the news and seeing a report from a region of Pakistan which was under sharia law. I saw two 10 year old girls being interviewed as they sat on the rubble that was once their school. The interview asked them how the implementation of sharia law had affected them. The first girl said that her father had bought her a burka, she doesn’t want to wear it but her father is frightened of the Taliban; the other girl said that education was her only hope of a better future and she would now have to stay in her home. The reporter also interviewed a 14 year old boy in hospital who had been shot by the Taliban for playing football. A picture formed in my head of a society run by men who want their women to remain uneducated, in the home or covered from head to toe and I niaively thought that women would not want to live under such a regime. Sixteen pages later and I now have the impression that some women do and some others see (or hope that) the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia as some aberration that’ll go away and be replaced by some other model.

By asking such questions I have been accused of attacking Islam and of trying to make Islamic teaching look uncivilised. I am not trying to achieve anything other than understanding. Again some Muslims can’t understand why someone like me who are not going to convert to Islam is spending his time trying to understand Islam and Muslims. Why do I persist – because there are 2 million Muslims living in my country and I believe it is imperative that we find a way to live together peacefully and I believe that can only be attained through understanding and that ‘understanding’ goes both ways. I have also been accused of hating Islam of course I do not; I am however worried by some Muslims’ interpretations of Islamic teachings, I do find repugnant those how advocate mindless violence, segregation, racism and hypocrisy.
Reply

Zafran
03-26-2009, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I recall your earlier post and I felt your anger towards me which I believe is unjustified. I started this thread with a question after watching the news and seeing a report from a region of Pakistan which was under sharia law. I saw two 10 year old girls being interviewed as they sat on the rubble that was once their school. The interview asked them how the implementation of sharia law had affected them. The first girl said that her father had bought her a burka, she doesn’t want to wear it but her father is frightened of the Taliban; the other girl said that education was her only hope of a better future and she would now have to stay in her home. The reporter also interviewed a 14 year old boy in hospital who had been shot by the Taliban for playing football. A picture formed in my head of a society run by men who want their women to remain uneducated, in the home or covered from head to toe and I niaively thought that women would not want to live under such a regime. Sixteen pages later and I now have the impression that some women do and some others see (or hope that) the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia as some aberration that’ll go away and be replaced by some other model.

By asking such questions I have been accused of attacking Islam and of trying to make Islamic teaching look uncivilised. I am not trying to achieve anything other than understanding. Again some Muslims can’t understand why someone like me who are not going to convert to Islam is spending his time trying to understand Islam and Muslims. Why do I persist – because there are 2 million Muslims living in my country and I believe it is imperative that we find a way to live together peacefully and I believe that can only be attained through understanding and that ‘understanding’ goes both ways. I have also been accused of hating Islam of course I do not; I am however worried by some Muslims’ interpretations of Islamic teachings, I do find repugnant those how advocate mindless violence, segregation, racism and hypocrisy.

what news channel was it or newspaper?
Reply

Danah
03-27-2009, 08:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I really don’t understand where you get this idea from.
Really?? Do you need more evidence? Look at the advertisements there…see how they are treat their women, I have been in UK twice and the most thing made me feel sick is the pictures of the advertisements there. Or walking around in parks and see each man holding a woman in his hand as if he is holding a piece of accessory…I remember reading an article in a newspaper long time ago about how they need to change the image of the woman in the west to make her more effective rather than being a necklace in the nick of the man, they even arrange a new kind of competition for women to vote for the best housewife who is very caring about her family and very educated, instead of being very sexy and going around in the evaluation of the competition naked. They themselves got sick of those stupid competitions that treat women as naked dulls to choose who the best one is………so just have a look again at your media and you will know what I am meaning.


format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I am a native Briton and I can tell you that the law of Britain grants absolute equality between men and women and no man can compel a woman to do anything. A hundred years back a wife was the property of her husband, fifty years back the woman’s marriage vows were to love, honour and OBEY her husband. None of that exists any more and there is no law or custom that supports any person to compel or coerce any woman to do anything she didn’t want to do. If you think that women here take their clothes off (or whatever)
I know what you are trying to say in terms of quality……. but I don’t see that women are treated with respect in the western society, you can't say that I am just throwing words randomly because I saw that with my own eyes

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
because they are compelled by some man you are very wrong.
Many workplaces there force women to wear a specific kind of clothes, if they did do that they are fired!! So, is that freedom???

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I believe that men and women should be equal, one should not have the power to compel the other to do anything, and one should not have less freedom or less authority than the other. Without equality there is no freedom.
Can you elaborate your view please instead of talking too general, so I can understand what exactly you trying to reach?


format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I recall your earlier post and I felt your anger towards me which I believe is unjustified.
.

I will be very direct here, I was angry at the beginning from your way of saying that Muslim females here are frightened to say their opinions about the Shariah laws, I hate the way you throw your assumptions and trying to talk in the place of the others

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I started this thread with a question after watching the news and seeing a report from a region of Pakistan which was under sharia law. I saw two 10 year old girls being interviewed as they sat on the rubble that was once their school. The interview asked them how the implementation of sharia law had affected them. The first girl said that her father had bought her a burka, she doesn’t want to wear it but her father is frightened of the Taliban; the other girl said that education was her only hope of a better future and she would now have to stay in her home. The reporter also interviewed a 14 year old boy in hospital who had been shot by the Taliban for playing football.
I don’t know each single details about Taliban and what they are doing there, but if you look at your hand, you will find your finger are not equal!, don’t generalize something on the whole religion. If a boy had been shot because he played football then this is pure injustices, why he would be punished for that? And if that’s true, I would say that Taliban is doing wrong here for hurting him because he played football like any other child

If a father is forbidden his daughter from going to school then I will say that he is very wrong, because islam is encouraging both men and women to go and ask for knowledge…..if you want I will quote the hadeeth and the Ayahs from Quran that said that.


format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
A picture formed in my head of a society run by men who want their women to remain uneducated, in the home or covered from head to toe and I niaively thought that women would not want to live under such a regime. Sixteen pages later and I now have the impression that some women do and some others see (or hope that) the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia as some aberration that’ll go away and be replaced by some other model.
I am a female that going around covered from head to toe alhumdulilah and I feel that I am treated in my society as a queen. I dont feel that being covered is preventing me to be effective person as I stated in my previous post. If I pass by a place fill with men and there is only a small space for me to pass then all the men standing there will move aside to give me more space to pass with a looks full with respect, even if they were not good muslims. For me, wearing hijab is my proud!! its not like the dark image you have in your mind.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Again some Muslims can’t understand why someone like me who are not going to convert to Islam is spending his time trying to understand Islam and Muslims.
Its your freedom to be muslim or not, there is no obligation on that, you are human being that understand what's going on around you, you can distinguish between the right and the wrong. So its your choice at the end.

I don’t expect people to say that I am planning to convert to Christianity when I am studying it now!!!! :?

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Why do I persist – because there are 2 million Muslims living in my country and I believe it is imperative that we find a way to live together peacefully and I believe that can only be attained through understanding and that ‘understanding’ goes both ways. I have also been accused of hating Islam of course I do not; I am however worried by some Muslims’ interpretations of Islamic teachings, I do find repugnant those how advocate mindless violence, segregation, racism and hypocrisy.
Again, don’t judge the religion based on its followers only, you will end up have nothing if you do…………..because people are not equal in their behaviors, some have the right understanding of their religions, some others are bringing rules by their own and claiming that its Islam teaching
Reply

Azy
03-27-2009, 12:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
I know what you are trying to say in terms of quality……. but I don’t see that women are treated with respect in the western society, you can't say that I am just throwing words randomly because I saw that with my own eyes
Can you honestly say that in all women in all Muslim areas are treated in the way that the Quran dictates?
Reply

Danah
03-27-2009, 12:47 PM
^ if all muslim areas in the world are following what Exactly Quran said about women they will not be in such situation as they are now
Reply

Azy
03-27-2009, 01:03 PM
Then I don't think it's fair to level that criticism solely at the western world when there are plenty of laws which aim to ensure equality for the sexes.
Isn't it the people who disregard these rules (both muslim and non-muslim) that create these problems?
Reply

Danah
03-27-2009, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Then I don't think it's fair to level that criticism solely at the western world when there are plenty of laws which aim to ensure equality for the sexes.
Isn't it the people who disregard these rules (both muslim and non-muslim) that create these problems?
I think the thread is called Shari'ah law not country....so the thread starter is talking about the Shari'ah in Islam, right?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-27-2009, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
I think the thread is called Shari'ah law not country....so the thread starter is talking about the Shari'ah in Islam, right?
Well, Muslims here claim how shariah is better, using examples from the west to show how our system is doomed and depraved (which I don't think it is), but then, our system may be perfect and it's the people who are making it look bad.
Reply

Danah
03-27-2009, 01:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, Muslims here claim how shariah is better, using examples from the west to show how our system is doomed and depraved (which I don't think it is), but then, our system may be perfect and it's the people who are making it look bad.
its not people who are making your system bad..........look at ur system very careful and see what the society got from it. I dont need to prove that....the corruptness that western societies are suffering from are enough to prove that, and if any Muslims society will try to copy them they will end up in the same miserable situation that westerns societies are in.
Do you need me to show you the latest statistics of the teenage pregnancy, or the number of people who suffer from AIDS, or may be you want to see the number of people killed in accidents due to driving under Alcohol...just mention what do you want Man!!!

This is what u got from your system


one last point, Dont switch the discussion to something else!!! we are talking about something specific here.
Reply

Azy
03-27-2009, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
I think the thread is called Shari'ah law not country....so the thread starter is talking about the Shari'ah in Islam, right?
That's what I meant
Perhaps I should have worded it:
"Isn't it the people who disregard these Muslim rules (Shari'ah) and non-muslim rules (e.g. UK Law) that create these problems?"

format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
the corruptness that western societies are suffering from are enough to prove that, and if any Muslims society will try to copy them they will end up in the same miserable situation that westerns societies are in.
Do you need me to show you the latest statistics of the teenage pregnancy, or the number of people who suffer from AIDS, or may be you want to see the number of people killed in accidents due to driving under Alcohol...just mention what do you want Man!!!
Again, is it the system at fault or the people who fail to follow the rules?

There are laws against sex with a minor (under 16, statutory rape), and organisations/laws which aim to ensure people are responsible for their children (e.g. CMEC, Child Support Act).
There are most certainly laws against driving under the influence of alcohol and extensive government campaigns exist.

(As a matter of interest Saudi Arabia has an appalling road safety record, something like 10 times as many road deaths per car when compared to the UK)

Muslims who don't follow the rules are responsible for some horrible things, I'm pretty sure I don't have to spell all those out to you.
Reply

Gator
03-27-2009, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
...Do you need me to show you the latest statistics of the teenage pregnancy, or the number of people who suffer from AIDS, or may be you want to see the number of people killed in accidents due to driving under Alcohol...
Hello Saya, Could we do a quick experiment on people's perceptions. WITHOUT looking them up could you tell me what the percentage rate of (in US or UK):

1) Teen Pregnancy
2) People with HIV/AIDS
3) HIV/AIDS deaths
4) People killed in auto accidents due to alcohol
5) People with Cancer
6) Cancer deaths per year

Just want what you know based on what you've read or best guess.You can PM me if you want.

Anyone else can join in too, but as long as you don't look them up on the web or anywhere else. I just want to get people's perceptions. And hey if you know put those down too.

This will be an honor system or course.

Thanks.
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Thinker
03-27-2009, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
what news channel was it or newspaper?
It was sky news, they sent a couple of reporters (one male one female) over to Pakistan and they got into the taliban controlled areas. There was a piece on the news from them each day for about a week. They also interviewd the President of Pakistan who denied that he had done a deal with the SWAT valley province for them to be allowed to operate sharia law.
Reply

Thinker
03-27-2009, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker Quote:
I really don’t understand where you get this idea from.


you said: Really?? Do you need more evidence? Look at the advertisements there…see how they are treat their women, I have been in UK twice and the most thing made me feel sick is the pictures of the advertisements there. Or walking around in parks and see each man holding a woman in his hand as if he is holding a piece of accessory…I remember reading an article in a newspaper long time ago about how they need to change the image of the woman in the west to make her more effective rather than being a necklace in the nick of the man, they even arrange a new kind of competition for women to vote for the best housewife who is very caring about her family and very educated, instead of being very sexy and going around in the evaluation of the competition naked. They themselves got sick of those stupid competitions that treat women as naked dulls to choose who the best one is………so just have a look again at your media and you will know what I am meaning.

First try to understand that you (like the rest of the human race) are very susceptible to indoctrination. What you and I believe is coloured by the environment in which we live; I know that and I constantly strive to shed my cultural baggage when trying to look at situations objectively. You have watched TV propaganda, listened to sermons in the mosque and will have reinforced that misconceived impression in conversation with those around you of like mind. I am also subject to those same influences but I know that and I build it into my judgements. . . . . . . You see a western man holding a woman’s hand “as if he is holding a piece of accessory,” why did you not see that it was the woman holding the man’s hand as if he was a piece of accessory?” The reason is because you are seeing it through eyes which have been indoctrinated to see it that way. . . . You look at the advertisements and presume the women are being ‘used’ why do you not see that the women in those advertisements are using you to make easy money for themselves. You talk about being a good housewife like it is something to be prized above all else, to women in the west it is simply a thing in their life as important as many other things. If you want to see the truth you’ll need to factor in the possibility that what you currently believe is what you have been told, not what you have seen (Please forgive me if I sound condescending)
Reply

Thinker
03-27-2009, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker
I am a native Briton and I can tell you that the law of Britain grants absolute equality between men and women and no man can compel a woman to do anything. A hundred years back a wife was the property of her husband, fifty years back the woman’s marriage vows were to love, honour and OBEY her husband. None of that exists any more and there is no law or custom that supports any person to compel or coerce any woman to do anything she didn’t want to do. If you think that women here take their clothes off (or whatever)

you said: I know what you are trying to say in terms of quality……. but I don’t see that women are treated with respect in the western society, you can't say that I am just throwing words randomly because I saw that with my own eyes.


Depends what you mean by respect. I would step aside for a woman to pass and I would open the door for her and allow her to enter the room before me. That’s because I am old and was taught that was ‘good manners.’ There are some women in the west that complain that by doing those things I am suggesting that they are weaker and I am stronger and that we are in some way not equal. Again, you see those men stepping aside as a sign of respect, why would they respect only women and not men who want to pass; how do they know you are worthy of respect; is it a sign of respect or is it a gesture of their strength and a statement saying that they have the power to allow you or not allow you to pass?
Reply

Thinker
03-27-2009, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker
because they are compelled by some man you are very wrong.

you said: Many workplaces there force women to wear a specific kind of clothes, if they did do that they are fired!! So, is that freedom???


You are totally wrong there, only clothing that is required for safety is compulsory and then it is compulsory for both men and women.
If you are referring to the burka, women here can wear it or not wear it as they choose. Some jobs, like teaching have deemed that it is necessary for the children to see the face of the teacher. Apart from that women in the west can choose to wear the burka or anything they like, women in areas under sharia law cannot choose to wear what they like can they?
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