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dagsky
03-27-2009, 04:53 PM
:sl:

I hope that i can get some help here on issues regarding Christainity and Islam. I have many questions to ask but i'll put them all one by one!

Ok a friend of mine debate our religions and every now and again i get stuck with some of his claims and don't know how to answer them so hopefully you'll be able to guide me.

At the moment we are debating on the abolosihng of the laws in christianity, when Jesus came he said that he had not come to abolish the laws but rather to fulfill them. Now apparently they were 2 different laws, the law of God and the law of Moses. (clarification needed as i'm not sure on this)

According to him he says that Jesus was here to uphold the laws of God and to DO AWAY with some of the laws of MOSES, eg the circumcision, the sacrifices etc etc where these were NO LONGER required.

Now as far as i am aware it was Paul who said that these laws were no longer applicable! Am i correct or wrong?
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dagsky
03-29-2009, 05:40 PM
has no one got a resonse for me?
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Civilsed
03-29-2009, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dagsky
:sl:

I hope that i can get some help here on issues regarding Christainity and Islam. I have many questions to ask but i'll put them all one by one!

Ok a friend of mine debate our religions and every now and again i get stuck with some of his claims and don't know how to answer them so hopefully you'll be able to guide me.

At the moment we are debating on the abolosihng of the laws in christianity, when Jesus came he said that he had not come to abolish the laws but rather to fulfill them. Now apparently they were 2 different laws, the law of God and the law of Moses. (clarification needed as i'm not sure on this)

According to him he says that Jesus was here to uphold the laws of God and to DO AWAY with some of the laws of MOSES, eg the circumcision, the sacrifices etc etc where these were NO LONGER required.

Now as far as i am aware it was Paul who said that these laws were no longer applicable! Am i correct or wrong?

:sl:

Jesus (AS) indeed came to reaffirm the the law/religion of Allah. Moses (AS) did not have laws that differed to Allah, rather implemented Allah's law.

You are correct that Paul did away with certain aspects if the religion.
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Zafran
03-29-2009, 07:11 PM
Salaam

yes you are correct its Paul who does away with those law - Jesus pbuh himself was circumcised and didnt eat pork - he was in other words a Jew but was reforming the Jews who had become too strict.

peace
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Joe98
04-01-2009, 01:23 AM
Christians live according to the teachings of Christ in the new testament

The old testament is a bit like a history of what went before.

If you want to find fault with christanity you need to find fault with the teachings of Christ.

The teachings of Christ can be summarised in one word. "Love"

Any question you have about Christianity, apply the word "Love" and you have the answer.
-
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coddles76
04-01-2009, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dagsky
:sl:
According to him he says that Jesus was here to uphold the laws of God and to DO AWAY with some of the laws of MOSES, eg the circumcision, the sacrifices etc etc where these were NO LONGER required.

Now as far as i am aware it was Paul who said that these laws were no longer applicable! Am i correct or wrong?
Christianity is All about his death more than anything else, It's what he sacrificed for the sinful human that is of importance to the christian. What law he came to uphold is not as important as the actual sacrifice. So really your discussion with your friend should be more pointed towards these points and not on what laws he came to uphold or not, Christians don't put much concentration on the other points, the essence is in his sacrificial death.
Hope this helps.
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wth1257
04-02-2009, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Christians live according to the teachings of Christ in the new testament

The old testament is a bit like a history of what went before.

If you want to find fault with christanity you need to find fault with the teachings of Christ.

The teachings of Christ can be summarised in one word. "Love"

Any question you have about Christianity, apply the word "Love" and you have the answer.
-
How does the Eucharist become in substance Christ while in accident mere bread and wine is answered "love"?

The Old Testament is not simply history disconnected from the NT. Christ is the fufilment of the Old Covenant. That is what he means by saying he did not come to abolish the law but fufil it. Although this means that Christians are no longer bound to offer holocausts and such the OT is still part of the organic whole of God's revelation to man.


As I understand it.
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Follower
04-03-2009, 02:18 PM
Many do not understand the brillance of Paul. Without the Law men did not know that they were sinning. Increases in the law show how much more unrighteous we are. None can follow the Law completely and so by the Law we are condemned.

What is in your heart does not depend on whether you follow the law - are circumsized or not. In fact if you are circumsized and it makes you feel superior over the next man and you think you are righteous then following the Law is actually working against you.

This is the same as any of the Laws- not eating pork- if it makes you think you are better then another then it is having the negative affect on your soul.

Jesus mentions the 2 most important Laws-
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
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Follower
04-03-2009, 02:23 PM
"How does the Eucharist become in substance Christ while in accident mere bread and wine is answered "love"?"

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
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wth1257
04-04-2009, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
"How does the Eucharist become in substance Christ while in accident mere bread and wine is answered "love"?"

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
How does that answer the question?
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Eric H
04-04-2009, 04:43 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Joe98;

Thanks for your summing up of Christianity; your explanation is very close to my beliefs. Christ, love and forgiveness are at the heart of Christianity but I would expand on that just a little.

All the law and prophets of God hang on the greatest commandments, and you could compare these commandments to a hook to hang your coat on. Without the hook, the coat falls on the floor, likewise when we fail to live our lives by the greatest commandments, Christianity falls on the floor for us.

In the spirit of praying to a loving and forgiving God

Eric
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Eric H
04-04-2009, 05:02 AM
Greetings and peace be with you wth1257;
How does the Eucharist become in substance Christ
I just trust that God exists fully and totally and he created the universe and life; I haven’t a clue how or why it all came about. In the same way I just trust that in substance the Eucharist for me becomes Christ’s body and blood, how it happens is beyond my understanding.
while in accident mere bread and wine is answered "love"?
sorry I am not sure what you mean.

As I understand it.
So much seems beyond my understanding, I look at the great faith my Muslim brothers and sisters have, and their faith is from the same God who gave me my faith.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and forgiving God.

Eric
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Pygoscelis
04-07-2009, 02:34 AM
The new testament is actually not all love and roses as some Christians may have you believe. The concept of Hell is introduced in the new testament.For all the horrible things God does in the OT he at least lets people die instead of subjecting them to eternal torture.

To have a saviour (the central message of christianity) you need something to be saved from, so in comes the idea of hellfire.
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wth1257
04-07-2009, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The new testament is actually not all love and roses as some Christians may have you believe. The concept of Hell is introduced in the new testament.For all the horrible things God does in the OT he at least lets people die instead of subjecting them to eternal torture.

To have a saviour (the central message of christianity) you need something to be saved from, so in comes the idea of hellfire.
`

That's a nice narrative Hitchens spins out. Few who buy that line question hos such a "barbaric" and "novel" innovation could be so smoothly accecpted in the Jewish reform movement which emerged into Christianity from a religious tradition that apparently had no idea of the concept.

In related news, Hitchens is full of both himself and "it".
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Eric H
04-07-2009, 05:00 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

The concept of Hell is introduced in the new testament.For all the horrible things God does in the OT he at least lets people die instead of subjecting them to eternal torture.
After our death, hell will be knowing that God exists fully and totally, and then having to face up to all the bad stuff in our past life. If God is a condemning God, then we should fear God.

Fear of God is the start of wisdom, because to fear him means we start to take note of what he is saying.

To have a saviour (the central message of christianity) you need something to be saved from, so in comes the idea of hellfire
Hell will be of our own making, and it will separate us from God, at that point we shall know that God exists fully and totally.

In the spirit of searching for a just and loving God

Eric
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Follower
04-07-2009, 12:55 PM
Are you asking "How does the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?"

The spoken words by the Minister,Pastor, Priest consecrate the bread and wine.

Some believe that the wine and bread actually changes in substance, some believe that while still bread and wine the blood and body of Christ is in, with and under the bread and wine. Some believe it is merely a symbol and does not change from the bread and wine.

All believe it is food for the soul.
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bibleblevr
04-07-2009, 10:16 PM
In Judaism, the law the lord gave his people, although perfect and a wonderful gift served only to condemn them because they could not live up to it's standards. Jesus fulfilled the law because we followed it perfectly and did not sin but died to the pay the penalty for sin. the law is two parts; the statement of what not to do and by making the statement it creates a "sin" Jesus eliminated the Bite of sin and thereby nullified the law. This is a great question and has very complicated implications, It is essential to be a christian and have the Holy Spirit in you heart in order to have a hope of truly grasping all of what Jesus did.

As for the law of Moses and the law of God they are one in the same, but some laws like not eating pork were so Jews would not get sick from them. God wasn't going to tell them about microorganisms so he just said its dirty. Those type of laws changed with Paul's vision because of safer practices.
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Pygoscelis
04-09-2009, 01:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
`

That's a nice narrative Hitchens spins out.
Who is Hitchens?

Few who buy that line question hos such a "barbaric" and "novel" innovation could be so smoothly accecpted in the Jewish reform movement which emerged into Christianity from a religious tradition that apparently had no idea of the concept.
Why is it so difficult to push into the culture? Christians went on to push it into other cultures, dozens of them in fact, afterwards. Talk to Jews today and you don't get much talk about hellfire and a need to be "saved" or "born again". That's pretty much left to the Christians.
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Pygoscelis
04-09-2009, 01:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Are you asking "How does the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?"

The spoken words by the Minister,Pastor, Priest consecrate the bread and wine.

Some believe that the wine and bread actually changes in substance, some believe that while still bread and wine the blood and body of Christ is in, with and under the bread and wine. Some believe it is merely a symbol and does not change from the bread and wine.

All believe it is food for the soul.
Believe it or not way back in history there were outcries and indeed people killed over cracker torture. Er I should say "mistreating of the eucharist", it being the body of Christ and therefore needing to be handled properly.
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AntiKarateKid
04-09-2009, 03:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Believe it or not way back in history there were outcries and indeed people killed over cracker torture. Er I should say "mistreating of the eucharist", it being the body of Christ and therefore needing to be handled properly.
I wonder if this proper treatment that they want only applies until you put it in your mouth.

I wonder what they think about the "body of Christ" being dissolved by someone's saliva and covered with germs from their mouth then ending up digested you know where.
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AntiKarateKid
04-09-2009, 03:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Who is Hitchens?



Why is it so difficult to push into the culture? Christians went on to push it into other cultures, dozens of them in fact, afterwards. Talk to Jews today and you don't get much talk about hellfire and a need to be "saved" or "born again". That's pretty much left to the Christians.
I'd assume that them being "chosen people of God" makes it redundant to preach to the rest of us. Christians don't see their religion as some exclusive club and more willing to actually reach out (though some reach out just a bit too strongly).

I'd take a Christian neighbor who tries to tell me why "I need to be saved" than a Jewish one who simply talks to me, if at all, about why he/she was "chosen." One clearly gives a **** about me.
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Eric H
04-09-2009, 04:43 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscellis
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Believe it or not way back in history there were outcries and indeed people killed over cracker torture. Er I should say "mistreating of the eucharist", it being the body of Christ and therefore needing to be handled properly.
Jesus forgave and healed, sadly Christians do not always follow in the spirit of Jesus.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
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Zafran
04-09-2009, 05:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Who is Hitchens?



Why is it so difficult to push into the culture? Christians went on to push it into other cultures, dozens of them in fact, afterwards. Talk to Jews today and you don't get much talk about hellfire and a need to be "saved" or "born again". That's pretty much left to the Christians.
Salaam

they still have the idea of the wrath of God and being God fearing people and keeping the commands of God.
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wth1257
04-11-2009, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I'd assume that them being "chosen people of God" makes it redundant to preach to the rest of us. Christians don't see their religion as some exclusive club and more willing to actually reach out (though some reach out just a bit too strongly).

I'd take a Christian neighbor who tries to tell me why "I need to be saved" than a Jewish one who simply talks to me, if at all, about why he/she was "chosen." One clearly gives a **** about me.
Because Christianity is an orthodoxic rather than orthopraxic religion. As a Muslim you keep the seven laws of Noah and according to the Talmudic tradition are assured a place in salvation. For the Jews you are already amongst the God fearing and don't need to become a Jew to be saved. They Jews as a people have made a covanant with God and they bear the burden of keeping the 613 laws in the Torah. If you want to become a Jew you could, but there would be no need to. For Christians, excluding some more pluralistic trends in the more intelectual strains, it doesn;t matter what you do. Your lack of accecpting Christ's divinity and accecpting him as your savior makes you hell bound.
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AntiKarateKid
04-11-2009, 04:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Because Christianity is an orthodoxic rather than orthopraxic religion. As a Muslim you keep the seven laws of Noah and according to the Talmudic tradition are assured a place in salvation. For the Jews you are already amongst the God fearing and don't need to become a Jew to be saved. They Jews as a people have made a covanant with God and they bear the burden of keeping the 613 laws in the Torah. If you want to become a Jew you could, but there would be no need to. For Christians, excluding some more pluralistic trends in the more intelectual strains, it doesn;t matter what you do. Your lack of accecpting Christ's divinity and accecpting him as your savior makes you hell bound.
Are you suggesting that a Muslim would be on the same level spiritual level as a Jew according to Judaism? That seems bizarre. They believe that their following of the Torah gives them access to a higher degree of connection with God. Otherwise what would be the point of taking the "burden"? Why wouldn't I want to upgrade from the noahide laws?

I don't like the idea of being a second class believer. Also, not all Christians believe that non-christians go to hell.
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YusufNoor
04-12-2009, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
Because Christianity is an orthodoxic rather than orthopraxic religion. As a Muslim you keep the seven laws of Noah and according to the Talmudic tradition are assured a place in salvation. For the Jews you are already amongst the God fearing and don't need to become a Jew to be saved. They Jews as a people have made a covanant with God and they bear the burden of keeping the 613 laws in the Torah. If you want to become a Jew you could, but there would be no need to. For Christians, excluding some more pluralistic trends in the more intelectual strains, it doesn;t matter what you do. Your lack of accecpting Christ's divinity and accecpting him as your savior makes you hell bound.
:sl:

what's an orthoprax religion?

oh, and someone's been studying!

Are you suggesting that a Muslim would be on the same level spiritual level as a Jew according to Judaism?

no, according to Judaism, we are G-dFearers. VERY similar to Jews, in fact heaven bound. just not quite as good! despite their belief that they ruined their convenant, they expect to "get it back!"

That seems bizarre. They believe that their following of the Torah gives them access to a higher degree of connection with God.

they still believe that they are G-d's Chosen People. G-d Fearer's would be chosen people as well, just not as special!

Otherwise what would be the point of taking the "burden"? Why wouldn't I want to upgrade from the noahide laws?

IF there was no Islam, that would be something to think about. BUT, Alhumdulillah, we have it! so why would someone want to be El Magdoobi Alayhim?

I don't like the idea of being a second class believer. Also, not all Christians believe that non-christians go to hell.

some Christians, like Catholics, say that ALL OTHER christians are going to hell as well!
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

this quote describes a Conservative Jewish position, taken from a previous post:

We’ll leave the issue of Hagar for the moment except to pause to list the prophecies about Ishmael AT THIS TIME:

V10 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring, and they will not be counted for abundance.”
V 11 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; his name shall be Ishmael, for Hashem has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-ass of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell.”
The prophecy in verse 10 sounds VERY familiar to ones about Abraham’s’ descendants, while verse 11 gives us our other prophecy. We will return to Hagar later, Insha’ Allah.


Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter 17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”

Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).

Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira! But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!


so you see ISLAM is prophesied in the Torah!

as for reasons that the Jews are El Magdoobi Alayhim, let's check their own texts. from Nehemiah ch 9:


1 Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackcloth, and earth upon them.
2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all foreigners, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.
3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the Law of the LORD their God a fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and prostrated themselves before the LORD their God.
4 Then stood up upon the platform of the Levites, Jeshua, and Bani, Kadmiel, Shebaniah, Bunni, Sherebiah, Bani, and Chenani, and cried with a loud voice unto the LORD their God.
5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said: 'Stand up and bless the LORD your God from everlasting to everlasting; and let them say: Blessed be Thy glorious Name, that is exalted above all blessing and praise.
6 Thou art the LORD, even Thou alone; Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and Thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth Thee.
7 Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
8 and foundest his heart faithful before Thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Jebusite, and the Girga****e, even to give it unto his seed, and hast performed Thy words; for Thou art righteous;
9 And Thou sawest the affliction of our fathers in Egypt, and heardest their cry by the Red Sea;
10 and didst show signs and wonders upon Pharaoh, and on all his servants, and on all the people of his land; for Thou knewest that they dealt proudly against them; and didst get Thee a name, as it is this day.
11 And Thou didst divide the sea before them, so that they went through the midst of the sea on the dry land; and their pursuers Thou didst cast into the depths, as a stone into the mighty waters.
12 Moreover in a pillar of cloud Thou didst lead them by day; and in a pillar of fire by night, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spokest with them from heaven, and gavest them right ordinances and laws of truth, good statutes and commandments;
14 and madest known unto them Thy holy sabbath, and didst command them commandments, and statutes, and a law, by the hand of Moses Thy servant;
15 and gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and didst command them that they should go in to possess the land which Thou hadst lifted up Thy hand to give them.
16 But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck, and hearkened not to Thy commandments,
17 and refused to hearken, neither were mindful of Thy wonders that Thou didst among them; but hardened their neck, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage; but Thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy, and forsookest them not.
18 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations;

19 yet Thou in Thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness; the pillar of cloud departed not from over them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to show them light, and the way wherein they should go.
20 Thou gavest also Thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not Thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
21 Yea, forty years didst Thou sustain them in the wilderness, and they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.
22 Moreover Thou gavest them kingdoms and peoples, which Thou didst allot quarter by quarter; so they possessed the land of Sihon, even the land of the king of Heshbon, and the land of Og king of Bashan.
23 Their children also didst Thou multiply as the stars of heaven, and didst bring them into the land, concerning which Thou didst say to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.
24 So the children went in and possessed the land, and Thou didst subdue before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the peoples of the land, that they might do with them as they would.
25 And they took fortified cities, and a fat land, and possessed houses full of all good things, cisterns hewn out, vineyards, and oliveyards, and fruit-trees in abundance; so they did eat, and were filled, and became fat, and luxuriated in Thy great goodness.
26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against Thee, and cast Thy law behind their back, and slew Thy prophets that did forewarn them to turn them back unto Thee, and they wrought great provocations.
27 Therefore Thou didst deliver them into the hand of their adversaries, who distressed them; and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto Thee, Thou heardest from heaven; and according to Thy manifold mercies Thou gavest them saviours who might save them out of the hand of their adversaries
.
28 But after they had rest, they did evil again before Thee; therefore didst Thou leave them in the hand of their enemies, so that they had the dominion over them; yet when they returned, and cried unto Thee, many times didst Thou hear from heaven, and deliver them according to Thy mercies;
29 and didst forewarn them, that Thou mightest bring them back unto Thy law; yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto Thy commandments, but sinned against Thine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them, and presented a stubborn shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.
30 Yet many years didst Thou extend mercy unto them, and didst forewarn them by Thy spirit through Thy prophets; yet would they not give ear; therefore gavest Thou them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.
31 Nevertheless in Thy manifold mercies Thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for Thou art a gracious and merciful God.

whilst we see evidence of Tawheed and an understanding of Allah's Mercy, we also see the some of the reasons that they have angered Allah [El Magdoobi Alayhim]!

btw, that is taken from a Jewish translation of Hebrew Scriptures!


http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm

:w:
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