How is an infidel treated in Islam?

[cali dude]

I, being a former Sikh, know that in Sikhism, there is some very harsh language used for an infidel.

Thanks

[جوري]

if you become an apostate and keep it to yourself I can't imagine anyone would care, but from observation those who apostate have an agenda to fulfill-- Islam is not just a religion but it is also a complete political system (under shari3a) state a public declaration might be considered treason.. be that as it may many apostates during the prophet time were actually pardoned .. so it is really a judicial proceeding by a scholar in jurisprudence than anything..

and Allah swt knows best

peace

[Charzhino]

I, being a former Sikh, know that in Sikhism, there is some very harsh language used for an infidel.

Thanks

Like what?

[cali dude]

Like what?

Dear sir, my apologies first, it's been really tough for me as well. So, if it bothers you, I apologize.

As I said, it's been really tough on me as well. I am going to PM you if I am capable of doing so...

Thanks

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[Grace Seeker]

if you become an apostate...

The terms "infidel" and "apostate" are NOT synonymous.

Main Entry: in·fi·del
Pronunciation: \ˈin-fə-dəl, -fə-ˌdel\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English infidele, from Middle French, from Late Latin infidelis unbelieving, from Latin, unfaithful, from in- + fidelis faithful — more at fidelity
Date: 15th century
1: one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 a: an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b: one who acknowledges no religious belief
3: a disbeliever in something specified or understood


source: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

Main Entry: apos·tate
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpäs-ˌtāt, -tət\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: one who commits apostasy


Main Entry: apos·ta·sy
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpäs-tə-sē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural apos·ta·sies
Etymology: Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand — more at stand
Date: 14th century
1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection


source: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

A discussion of the Muslim view of apsostates doesn't really answer OP's question: How is an infidel treated in Islam?

[جوري]

The terms "infidel" and "apostate" are NOT synonymous.

A discussion of the Muslim view of apsostates doesn't really answer OP's question: How is an infidel treated in Islam?

If you'd read the OP's post in its entirety you'd have come across

I, being a former Sikh, ---
Thanks

rather than giving me a lecture on the meaning of the word, why not pay attention to what he actually wrote?



all the best

[Uthman]

So would 'infidel' basically equal 'Kafir'? They would be treated with good manners, I suppose.

[Follower]

I have been told by some Muslims that a kafir was a pagan.

As someone that does not believe that Mohammad was a prophet I have also been considered a kafir and no I have not always been treated with good manners. LOL!

[جوري]

as someone who doesn't believe in the man/God/Hovering ghost with a mother bowel movements and unanswered prayers, I too have been considered a heretic and treated badly by evangelists and had my religion and continue to have my religion maligned through every portal, as it seems the only way for them to loan their mythology credence is through mockery of unfaltering monotheism.. LOL

Now perhaps you can stick to the topic?

all the best

[Uthman]

Related discussion:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...del-kafir.html

[Grace Seeker]

If you'd read the OP's post in its entirety you'd have come across

I, being a former Sikh...

rather than giving me a lecture on the meaning of the word, why not pay attention to what he actually wrote?



all the best

Indeed, I did read that. Last I checked Sikhs were not Muslims. Where did you finding him asking about apostacy of any variety?

[جوري]

Indeed, I did read that. Last I checked Sikhs were not Muslims. Where did you finding him asking about apostacy of any variety?

I believe it is what we call a similitude --how does someone who is a 'former' Sikh apostate 'likened' to someone who is a former Muslim؟.. that is what I understood from the post!.. it is all easy to ask the OP his true intent on his post rather than fill my life with platitudes? =)
all the best

[Charzhino]

Dear sir, my apologies first, it's been really tough for me as well. So, if it bothers you, I apologize.

As I said, it's been really tough on me as well. I am going to PM you if I am capable of doing so...

Thanks

For some reason I cannot PM you back so I will post it on here.

You said in your message:

Here are some of the examples:

Page 82, Line 1
ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਜਿਉ ਵੇਸੁਆ ਪੁਤੁ ਨਿਨਾਉ ॥
विचि हउमै करम कमावदे जिउ वेसुआ पुतु निनाउ ॥
vicẖ ha▫umai karam kamāvḏe ji▫o vesu▫ā puṯ ninā▫o.
Those who do their deeds in ego are like the prostitute's son, who has no name.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 239, Line 4
ਸਾਕਤ ਬੇਸੁਆ ਪੂਤ ਨਿਨਾਮ ॥੩॥
साकत बेसुआ पूत निनाम ॥३॥
Sākaṯ besu▫ā pūṯ ninām. ||3||
The faithless cynic is nameless, like the prostitute's son. ||3||
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1415, Line 12
ਬੇਸੁਆ ਕੇਰੇ ਪੂਤ ਜਿਉ ਪਿਤਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
बेसुआ केरे पूत जिउ पिता नामु तिसु जाइ ॥
Besu▫ā kere pūṯ ji▫o piṯā nām ṯis jā▫e.
They are like the son of a prostitute, who does not know the name of his father.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

First of all there is no such thing as a infidel in Sikhism, so your knowledge on it is pretty misconceptionary I think. Second of all those verses are not talking about infidels in any religion.
The first verse is saying, those who do deeds and acts in a selfish egotistical manner is false to himself. There's nothing about religion in their whatsoever. It's like someone who forces a begger to beg for money and is proud of it.
The second verse is not calling the faithless cynic a prostitutes son, but saying that he will be shamed like him.
The last verse is similar, it is talking about the realtionship between a person and his parents. If one has left his parents in greed, or despair then he has no worth to them.
You do know Sikhism says that there is more than one path to God and that there is no such thing as a infidel right?

[Follower]

LOL!! gossamer skye- you are a hoot!

Thank you for displaying your rudeness!

I was reply to osman's comment about
"So would 'infidel' basically equal 'Kafir'? They would be treated with good manners, I suppose."

[جوري]

LOL!! gossamer skye- you are a hoot!

Thank you for displaying your rudeness!

I was reply to osman's comment about
"So would 'infidel' basically equal 'Kafir'? They would be treated with good manners, I suppose."

LOL 'Follower' you are a hootier hoot..
Thank you for displaying rudeness + ignorance (it is an amazing combo)

my post was a direct response to your post!

all the best!

[Uthman]

and no I have not always been treated with good manners. LOL!

I'm sorry to hear that. It shouldn't have been the case.

[cali dude]

Sorry for the confusion, although yes I am a former Sikh, I meant to discus how an infidel aka Kafir not apostate because the quotes about the infidel is what turned me off about Sikhism.

Just as an FYI though, even when I considered myself, I had started cutting my hair at 19. So some people would call me apostate as soon as I cut my hair. But now I guess I voluntarily became apostate to Sikhism once I got turned off by Sikhism.

To the Sikh guy responding to this, the word Saakat is sometimes translated to Infidel and some other times, it's translated to faithless cynic...

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Well the term "infidel" always referred more to the Christian faith, NOT Islam. The correct word to use is apostate. In terms of Christianity, yes it's not synonymous to apostate...but both basically mean ur rejecting a particular faith, if you put it in the context of religion...

[Thinker]

if you become an apostate and keep it to yourself I can't imagine anyone would care, but from observation those who apostate have an agenda to fulfill-- Islam is not just a religion but it is also a complete political system (under shari3a) state a public declaration might be considered treason.. be that as it may many apostates during the prophet time were actually pardoned .. so it is really a judicial proceeding by a scholar in jurisprudence than anything..

and Allah swt knows best

peace

Greetings respected Skye,

Interesting observation . . . I've formed the view that to call Islam a religion doesn't fully describe what it is - do you have a word or words that describes it better than the word religion, I have thought about the question a few times and failed to come up with the right word or words?

[جوري]

Greetings respected Skye,

Interesting observation . . . I've formed the view that to call Islam a religion doesn't fully describe what it is - do you have a word or words that describes it better than the word religion, I have thought about the question a few times and failed to come up with the right word or words?

Greetings,

well you are right Prophet Mohamed like Moses, didn't simply establish a religion but a complete political system. Islam governs every aspect of ones life from politics, economics, social structure, Ideology, trade, inheritance and beliefs.
Most of which has ceased with the dissolution of the Muslim empire ..

that is why the term 'ad'deen mo3amala' is very true.. Islam isn't merely a religion but a complete way of life.. It doesn't and shouldn't stop after you have fulfilled your basic five pillars..

and Allah swt knows best!

peace

[Uthman]

Well done Thinker. :) You have understood that Islam is more than just a religion, but is in fact a complete way of life. As respected sister Skye said, the Qur'an refers to Islam by the arabic word 'Deen'. The following wiki article may help to convey it's meaning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%AB...4.ABn_in_Islam

Also, see page 6 of the following document:

http://www.learndeen.com/docs/articl...53cbfbe02c6e17

[Ummu Sufyaan]

I have been told by some Muslims that a kafir was a pagan.

As someone that does not believe that Mohammad was a prophet I have also been considered a kafir and no I have not always been treated with good manners. LOL!

have you always treated with good manners yourself?

[Follower]

Thank you Gossamer!

In my parts a hoot is a loving expression that is given when someone has said something truly funny, ironic, silly, etc. It is always said when your are happy laughing at something someone has said.

You never call a person a hoot in anger- it is used between friends.

LOL!! Of course I was off topic of the main topic in my post to osman, but it was on topic in relation to osman's comments.

[Follower]

Umm ul-Shaheed - On forums, I have never called anyone names out of anger or frustration. I have also not labeled someone as needing psychiatric help or being insane. I have never called anyone an infidel or pagan, kafir.

Even if someone calls themself a Muslim when I know that others might not call them a Muslims- Ahmalhdi (spelling?) I don't say no your not!! LOL! I say so be it if you say you are a Muslim ok. There are some things just not worth worrying about.

Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons- thay say they are the true Christians, my concept of Christianity is a bit different then theirs. I just don't believe they way they do.

As a Christian to Muslims I don't call them infidels, their concept and my concept of who GOD is and what His make up is, differs from mine.

As a kid though, I was ornery!!

[جوري]

Thank you Gossamer!

In my parts a hoot is a loving expression that is given when someone has said something truly funny, ironic, silly, etc. It is always said when your are happy laughing at something someone has said.

You never call a person a hoot in anger- it is used between friends.

LOL!! Of course I was off topic of the main topic in my post to osman, but it was on topic in relation to osman's comments.

Thank you for a grammar lesson-- I am well aware of what 'hoot' means.. as I use it quite often ( in the silly) form yielding to sarcastic...

All the best

[Charzhino]

Sorry for the confusion, although yes I am a former Sikh, I meant to discus how an infidel aka Kafir not apostate because the quotes about the infidel is what turned me off about Sikhism.

Just as an FYI though, even when I considered myself, I had started cutting my hair at 19. So some people would call me apostate as soon as I cut my hair. But now I guess I voluntarily became apostate to Sikhism once I got turned off by Sikhism.

To the Sikh guy responding to this, the word Saakat is sometimes translated to Infidel and some other times, it's translated to faithless cynic...

There is no such thing as a infidel in Sikhism.

[cali dude]

There is no such thing as a infidel in Sikhism.

Hello Charzhino, you may be young and maybe you don't know much about Sikhism. Saakat means a non-believer, in other word infidel.

From my experience with Sikhi, Sikhi really isn't what we all think it is. Sikhs often claim that Sikhi is about equality of all, which is false. I believed in Sikhi until I found out that Sikhi really isn't what I always thought as a child. Once I found out that Sikhi wasn't about equality of all and that harsh words used toward a Saakat aka infidel, I had no reason to be Sikh. For any religion that is word of The One Lord, there can not any discrimination at all. Those who use discrimination, in schools for example or at work places, can not claim to follow Lord's way. Since there is only one Lord and there is only one humanity, for those who believe in The Lord, there is no reason at all to discriminate...

If you are willing to learn the truth, learn without any biases and you will find out the truth as long as you are willing to accept the truth when you see it and don't make any excuses...

[Charzhino]

Hello Charzhino, you may be young and maybe you don't know much about Sikhism. Saakat means a non-believer, in other word infidel.

From my experience with Sikhi, Sikhi really isn't what we all think it is. Sikhs often claim that Sikhi is about equality of all, which is false. I believed in Sikhi until I found out that Sikhi really isn't what I always thought as a child. Once I found out that Sikhi wasn't about equality of all and that harsh words used toward a Saakat aka infidel, I had no reason to be Sikh. For any religion that is word of The One Lord, there can not any discrimination at all. Those who use discrimination, in schools for example or at work places, can not claim to follow Lord's way. Since there is only one Lord and there is only one humanity, for those who believe in The Lord, there is no reason at all to discriminate...

If you are willing to learn the truth, learn without any biases and you will find out the truth as long as you are willing to accept the truth when you see it and don't make any excuses...

Ok can we clear up on your definition of an Infidel please.

[جوري]

infidel as per dictionary is : A person who does not acknowledge your god

[cali dude]

Ok can we clear up on your definition of an Infidel please.

Check out: http://www.sikhmatrimonials.com/sikh...F!OpenDocument

Saakat = Infidel = non-believer...

I guess the standard definition of an Infidel is as follows:

in⋅fi⋅del   [in-fi-dl, -del] Show IPA
–noun
1. Religion.
a. a person who does not accept a particular faith, esp. Christianity.
b. (in Christian use) an unbeliever, esp. a Muslim.
c. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
2. a person who has no religious faith; unbeliever.
3. (loosely) a person who disbelieves or doubts a particular theory, belief, creed, etc.; skeptic.

http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...idel?qsrc=2888

[alcurad]

um, ok this is off topic but:-
Thinker:"I've formed the view that to call Islam a religion doesn't fully describe what it is"

no, actually Islam is mostly the only major 'religion' that has remained a religon in a sense,, of course the existance of the muslim churches-I mean the sects- as well as the abuse Islam goes through by dictators or tribals calling whatever they do Islam hides the fact,,

on topic, in Islam, we are to present our religion to others, treat them as we treat each other-the prophet's story with his Jewish neighbor etc-and not to insult them or their beliefs for being non muslims.

[Charzhino]

Check out: http://www.sikhmatrimonials.com/sikh...F!OpenDocument

Saakat = Infidel = non-believer...

I guess the standard definition of an Infidel is as follows:

in⋅fi⋅del   [in-fi-dl, -del] Show IPA
–noun
1. Religion.
a. a person who does not accept a particular faith, esp. Christianity.
b. (in Christian use) an unbeliever, esp. a Muslim.
c. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
2. a person who has no religious faith; unbeliever.
3. (loosely) a person who disbelieves or doubts a particular theory, belief, creed, etc.; skeptic.

http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...idel?qsrc=2888

Ok I suspected that. But I will say it again, there is no such thing as a non-Sikh who believes in monotheistic God. Sikhism believes that a person can reach salvation no matter what religion they are in, including Islam, but only if they meditate soley on God's name whilst becoming enlightned by removing the 5 vices: Lust, Greed, Ego, Anger, Emotional Attachement.
The verses you described before talk about people who have no belief in any sort of God (athiests). The verse you quoted before:

The faithless cynic is nameless, like the prostitute's son.

is reffering to people who not only do not believe in God but have a genereal spitness about them. Look at the definition of cynic:

Cynic-
1) a person who believes that only selfishness motivates human actions and who disbelieves in or minimizes selfless acts or disinterested points of view.

2) a person who shows or expresses a bitterly or sneeringly cynical attitude.

[cali dude]

Ok I suspected that. But I will say it again, there is no such thing as a non-Sikh who believes in monotheistic God. Sikhism believes that a person can reach salvation no matter what religion they are in, including Islam, but only if they meditate soley on God's name whilst becoming enlightned by removing the 5 vices: Lust, Greed, Ego, Anger, Emotional Attachement.
The verses you described before talk about people who have no belief in any sort of God (athiests). The verse you quoted before:

The faithless cynic is nameless, like the prostitute's son.

is reffering to people who not only do not believe in God but have a genereal spitness about them. Look at the definition of cynic:

Cynic-
1) a person who believes that only selfishness motivates human actions and who disbelieves in or minimizes selfless acts or disinterested points of view.

2) a person who shows or expresses a bitterly or sneeringly cynical attitude.

Well yes, when I said Saakat or infidel or faithless cynic, it didn't mean that someone is not a Sikh...

I thought it had been cleared up way before that an infidel was a non-believer, someone who doesn't believe in God...

But I think it's still very harsh to say that a Saakat, like son of a prostitute, doesn't know him father...