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Uthman
04-05-2009, 09:33 AM
:sl:

Discuss. :)
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Uthman
04-05-2009, 04:38 PM
I would like to see contributions from the likes of aamirsaab, Dawud_UK, kAding, Gossamer and obviously Thinker.
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aamirsaab
04-05-2009, 04:45 PM
:sl:
A caliphate would be tricky to establish today because of the sunni/shia divide in addition to the many sects. I don't think muslims in an overall perspective would be able to decide on who should be part of the caliphate: we cannot even decide on the day of Eid - and that's a HOLY DAY!
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Uthman
04-05-2009, 04:54 PM
"Hadhrat Huzaifa narrated that the Messenger of Allah said: Prophethood will remain among you as long as Allah wills. Then Caliphate (Khilafat) on the lines of Prophethood shall commence, and remain as long as Allah wills. Then corrupt/erosive monarchy would take place, and it will remain as long as Allah wills. After that, despotic kingship would emerge, and it will remain as long as Allah wills. Then, the Caliphate (Khilafat) shall come once again based on the precept of Prophethood."

The above hadith is from Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal. Is it authentic?
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Thinker
04-05-2009, 06:21 PM
I believe Islam would benefit from a Caliph in the style of the Pope, a single head who makes the final decision on which interpretation is correct and one that stays out of politics. At the moment there are so many ‘scholars’ and ‘sheiks’ giving their interpretation on what is and what isn’t that any Muslim with any viewpoint can find a scholar to agree with his interpretation of Islam. Of electing a Caliph will never happen, if the Muslim world can’t agree on a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian problem they’d never agree on who should be Caliph.
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S_87
04-05-2009, 06:54 PM
Yes that hadith is authentic

A modern day caliphate with how the muslims are at this present time- well there is a reason why its non existant atm and that is because of our own actions. the rulers arent to blame. it is all of us. Allah will not change our condition until we change ourselves. Having said that it doesnt mean as muslims we shouldnt strive to better ourselves and follow the shariah.
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Dawud_uk
04-05-2009, 06:56 PM
:sl:

i have 100% total faith and conviction in there being khilafa again as it is spoken of in sahih ahadith and is part of our deen.

anyone who says we dont need a khalif or shariah has committed kufr akbar and it is actually a major sin on all of us to not work towards this duty of establishing islamic rule.

remember the ottoman khilafa went wrong by allowing religious innovation and banning many technical innovations, the total opposite of how a khilafa should be run where matters of the deen are protected and mubah issues are left in the hands of the people as to whether they want them or not.

so to say you cannot have islamic rule now because the modern age is stupid, its like saying you cant have democracy because democracy is over 2500 years old so couldnt work today.
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Muezzin
04-05-2009, 07:35 PM
A modern day Caliphate - How realistic is it?
To be honest... Not very, at the moment.

It's got nothing to do with Islamic systems of government and law, and everything to do with the general sense of disunity between Muslims globally.
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Uthman
04-05-2009, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Of electing a Caliph will never happen, if the Muslim world can’t agree on a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian problem they’d never agree on who should be Caliph.
Thinker raises an interesting point. How would a Caliph be elected? Would it be by the process of Shura? I think the following is a useful link:

http://www.2muslims.com/directory/De....shtml#process

Is it correct?
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Thinker
04-05-2009, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

i have 100% total faith and conviction in there being khilafa again as it is spoken of in sahih ahadith and is part of our deen.

anyone who says we dont need a khalif or shariah has committed kufr akbar and it is actually a major sin on all of us to not work towards this duty of establishing islamic rule.

remember the ottoman khilafa went wrong by allowing religious innovation and banning many technical innovations, the total opposite of how a khilafa should be run where matters of the deen are protected and mubah issues are left in the hands of the people as to whether they want them or not.

so to say you cannot have islamic rule now because the modern age is stupid, its like saying you cant have democracy because democracy is over 2500 years old so couldnt work today.
If what you say is correct where is he, why is there no Caliph?
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Dawud_uk
04-05-2009, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
If what you say is correct where is he, why is there no Caliph?
there are many historical reasons why the khilifa was destroyed, but ultimately the real reason behind it was the muslims become corrupted in worldly life and matters of our faith and belief so Allah allowed our enemies to overcome us so we could be purified again just as he did to nations previously.

but if you are looking for worldly reasons, the ottomans misinterpretted the religion, becomming more and more nationalistic, more and more corrupting the religion whilst holding back worldly progress in matters of technology and such like.

this meant they effectly were not able to hold back the french and british, amongst others who had long held a desire for the lands the muslims had and wanted to destroy islam as a system.
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yasin ibn Ahmad
04-05-2009, 08:36 PM
It is a must for the Muslim world today.What we need is unity.And from what ever nation or country one caliph can make this unity.Every region in every Muslim country has their own Imams.These imams can discuss about who will be the caliph.
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Woodrow
04-05-2009, 08:38 PM
It wont be the first time I've been wrong, but ever since I reverted, I have been under the impression that the next Caliphate will not hoppen until the coming of the Mehdi and that the Mehdi is the only remaining Caliph that there will be.
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Dawud_uk
04-05-2009, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
It wont be the first time I've been wrong, but ever since I reverted, I have been under the impression that the next Caliphate will not hoppen until the coming of the Mehdi and that the Mehdi is the only remaining Caliph that there will be.
:sl:

would it suprise you to know the khilafa has been destroyed before in the past and then come about again?

:sl:
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Uthman
04-05-2009, 08:53 PM
I believe I asked a question!
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Amadeus85
04-05-2009, 10:00 PM
I hope that I dont break this discussion, but I would like to ask you people, why actually the last Caliphate, Ottoman, collapsed? What are your fact and opinions?
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Uthman
04-05-2009, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I hope that I dont break this discussion, but I would like to ask you people, why actually the last Caliphate, Ottoman, collapsed? What are your fact and opinions?
I was hoping you would show up sooner or later. :D

Brother Dawud_UK has already dealt with this point if you read his posts in this thread...
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Amadeus85
04-05-2009, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I was hoping you would show up sooner or later. :D

Brother Dawud_UK has already dealt with this point if you read his posts in this thread...
Okie dokie, so I will try to answer Your interesting question Osman - I have no idea right now. This is something like wondering if Manchester City wins Champions League soon. That may happen, but it would be very hard.
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Zafran
04-05-2009, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
It wont be the first time I've been wrong, but ever since I reverted, I have been under the impression that the next Caliphate will not hoppen until the coming of the Mehdi and that the Mehdi is the only remaining Caliph that there will be.
Salaam

I agree with the above -

peace
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Zafran
04-05-2009, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I hope that I dont break this discussion, but I would like to ask you people, why actually the last Caliphate, Ottoman, collapsed? What are your fact and opinions?

1 - Went to the first world war when it probably shouldnt have.

2 - rebel agents of the allied forces in arabia - eg lawrence of arabia who promised the arabs of independent state and convinced them to fight the Ottomans.

3 - too many attacks by too many nations (during the first world war)

4 - some say that the economy was in bad shape of the Ottomans - mix WW1 with that = disaster.

5 - on a religious note - time was up for the Ottomans - If you look at the sultans of the Ottoman empire after Sulieman the lawgiver you will see that most of leaders were not realy acting like leaders - Instead they just gave the job to the Vizers.

6 - Linked with 5 the Ulema (religous scholars) lost authority to the sultan.

I'm sure there there are many reasons to it too. - My opnion - too many attacks by too many people within and outside of the chaliphate.
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Dawud_uk
04-05-2009, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
To be honest... Not very, at the moment.

It's got nothing to do with Islamic systems of government and law, and everything to do with the general sense of disunity between Muslims globally.
i dont think that is necessarily a problem, the prophet muhammad (saws) said we would split into different sects and we have. that doesnt prevent khilafa.

it is not necessary for all muslims to unite for us to re-establish islamic rule, it can happen in one place then spread inshallah over the years.

i personally think the most likely place for this is still afghanistan and pakistan border region.
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Güven
04-05-2009, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
1 - Went to the first world war when it probably shouldnt have.

2 - rebel agents of the allied forces in arabia - eg lawrence of arabia who promised the arabs of independent state and convined them to fight the Ottomans.

3 - too many attacks by too many nations (during the first world war)

4 - some say that the econmy was in bad shape of the Ottomans - mix WW1 with that = disaster.

5 - on a religious note - time was up for the Ottomans - If you look at the sultans of the Ottoman empire after Sulieman the lawgiver you will see that most of leaders were not realy acting like leaders - Instead they just gave the job to the Vizers.

6 - Linked with 5 the Ulema (religous scholars) lost authorty to the sultan.

I'm sure there there are many reasons to it too. - My opnion - too many attacks by too many people within and outside of the chaliphate.

EXACTLY , was about to say the same thing until I saw your post.

And the main reason was again ofcourse...Diversion/nationalism.
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Zafran
04-05-2009, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Güven
EXACTLY , was about to say the same thing until I saw your post.

And the main purpose was again ofcourse...Diversion/nationalism.
salaam

yep and nationalism has been a problem ever since. The Muslim world has always been divided thanks to nationalism and has never been as united when under the Ottomans.

Western interferance has also played a great distraction.

peace
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Dawud_uk
04-06-2009, 12:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

yep and nationalism has been a problem ever since. The Muslim world has always been divided thanks to nationalism and has never been as united when under the Ottomans.

Western interferance has also played a great distraction.

peace
nationalism was a problem when Muhammad (saws) was still with us otherwise there wouldnt be the ahaddith prohibiting it,

nationalism has continued to be a problem through the ummah's history, the muslims of spain and north africa for example divided between arab, berber and european reverts.

and nationalism was also a serious problem under the ottomans, speak to any arab of north african origin to find out how the turks treated non-turks.

and nationalism continues to be a problem today.

we continue not to learn from our mistakes and so are doomed to repeat them.
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Woodrow
04-06-2009, 12:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

would it suprise you to know the khilafa has been destroyed before in the past and then come about again?

:sl:
:sl:

No that is no surprise. I am now trying to find reference as to how and why I came to under the impression that the next Caliph will be the Mehdi and there will no Caliphate until he comes.
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noorseeker
04-06-2009, 12:38 AM
isnt there too many people though, nearly 2 billion muslims to rule over

who would take on that responsibilty, children starving, people dying, the khalifah would have to answer to Allah swt for all this,
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Woodrow
04-06-2009, 01:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I hope that I dont break this discussion, but I would like to ask you people, why actually the last Caliphate, Ottoman, collapsed? What are your fact and opinions?
The mechanecs about how the Ottoman empire fell is quite complicated. But the reason is very simple. The leaders strayed from Islam, became secular and tried place National pride above Allaah(swt)
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جوري
04-06-2009, 04:22 AM
well...
for a while I thought it was theoretically realistic, then my one week 'vacation' in Egypt made me feel like it will probably not happen in my lifetime.. I don't think the birth place of the caliphate will witness its rebirth.. it will come from else where by far better Muslims...
I was really disappointed with everything there.. perhaps I was only looking for bad things and that is what I saw, or perhaps I didn't linger long enough to see the hidden better, but I'll have to take Egypt to be a representative of the middle east in general at the moment.. Everything burnt me there from the littlest things like how awful they speak and malign Palestinians, I mean I was showing them things on my Ipod which I had downloaded from youtube they dismissed, so it was a no wonder to me why they didn't want to open the borders to them, the same style western media has brain washed them without question.. they seem to seek the worst things out of the west but not the best.
I mean I can always turn my TV off the bad channels here and switch to something educational, well that is almost unheard of there.. None of the books I wanted I was able to get instead crappy literature every where, anything to turn their minds on to what is really important... I am telling you, I felt like I had stepped into a time warp.
teenage girls with the same nasty attitudes as the worst ones here, I was so surprised to see their heads covered because just about everything else wasn't, including foul language and ridiculous outfits like little run away hookers or drag queens.. as my uncle's wife said, a cover on the head should probably denote that it is high maintenance to style the hair and nothing more.

I felt sad.. I hope the rest of the so-called Muslim world is in a better place but I really doubt it. It will be nothing short of a miracle to change all that, as Allah swt doesn't change people until they change themselves, I won't even dwell into the rest as it is still taking me two weeks to recover... I believe the return of Islam will come from converts, and as the prophet stated, Islam began as a thing strange and shall return strange as it once was.. well that is where we are right now...

something probably disastrous will have to occur to spark a change in all those folks.. the best Muslims I saw in Egypt all around were the Malaysians that were there lol...

Anyhow May Allah swt forgive me as I am probably a horrible Muslim myself...

:w:
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Thinker
04-06-2009, 10:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
well...
for a while I thought it was theoretically realistic, then my one week 'vacation' in Egypt made me feel like it will probably not happen in my lifetime.. I was really disappointed with everything there..
Hi Sky,

That's an excellent example of how we (humans) see things not just as they are but through eyes preconditioned by our own cultural background and personal beliefs. I also spent some time in Egypt last year and one of the things that surprised me was the number of Christian churches there. In one town I counted as many Christian churches as there were Mosques. That left me with an impression that Egyptian Muslims were more tolerant than I had believed them to be.

Cheers
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Dawud_uk
04-06-2009, 11:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi Sky,

That's an excellent example of how we (humans) see things not just as they are but through eyes preconditioned by our own cultural background and personal beliefs. I also spent some time in Egypt last year and one of the things that surprised me was the number of Christian churches there. In one town I counted as many Christian churches as there were Mosques. That left me with an impression that Egyptian Muslims were more tolerant than I had believed them to be.

Cheers
The khalif and indeed any islamic authority has a duty to protend the dhimmi, the oldest christian communities in the world are in the muslim lands.
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noorahmad
04-06-2009, 11:24 AM
I consider the ottoman rule to be a monarchy, the sultan was not elected as Islam teaches us that the caliph need to be elected.
I dont think that the caliphate would work, but nonetheless we should try to realize it, or at least to have the intention
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Amadeus85
04-06-2009, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
something probably disastrous will have to occur to spark a change in all those folks.. the best Muslims I saw in Egypt all around were the Malaysians that were there lol...

Anyhow May Allah swt forgive me as I am probably a horrible Muslim myself...

:w:
Hello SKye,
Its always best to visit countries that we want to discuss about. Thats why I avoid talking about countries that I never visited. That is why Your reflections are interesting. But still I think that Egypt is too big to know it for so short visit (unless You are born there). But I know this feeling, everytime when I see scandalous behaviour of people from my country.
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جوري
04-06-2009, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi Sky,

That's an excellent example of how we (humans) see things not just as they are but through eyes preconditioned by our own cultural background and personal beliefs. I also spent some time in Egypt last year and one of the things that surprised me was the number of Christian churches there. In one town I counted as many Christian churches as there were Mosques. That left me with an impression that Egyptian Muslims were more tolerant than I had believed them to be.

Cheers
Having churches has nothing to do with the good or bad of Egypt.. Churches have always existed and even Jewish temples were looked after by Muslims, The caliph Omar Ibn Ilkhtab RA was invited to one of the oldest churches known (the holy sepulcher) I believe, and he accepted the invitation, when he was offered to pray there he declined, not because he didn't want to pray there, but because he didn't want Muslims to think it was OK to take churches for Mosques, in other words people should be allowed to have their places of worship undisturbed.

What I am taking about is something completely different and has nothing to do with culture and such... it has to do with what I ideally think should be obvious to all Muslims and how far gone they are to marginalize Islam to nothing more than the rituals, when it should be a complete way of life...

Egypt is secular and that is all there is to it!
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Najm
04-06-2009, 04:27 PM
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

InshaAllah it shall happen. The key is patience. Lets not hurry ourseleves. Lets build strong foundations. Lets bring Islam back to everyones hearts....

An overall team objectives can only be met by the efforts of each and every individual.

InshaAllah

FiAmaaniAllah
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salamfromrom
04-08-2009, 04:18 PM
Salam
"I believe the return of Islam will come from converts, and as the prophet stated, Islam began as a thing strange and shall return strange as it once was.. well that is where we are right now...

something probably disastrous will have to occur to spark a change in all those folks.. the best Muslims I saw in Egypt all around were the Malaysians that were there lol..."
Good news


You probably don't know this (mainly due to the total informational blockade by the russians) but in the North Caucasus Republics there is a real and very popular islamic insurgency against the Russian colonisers and opressors and their local accomplices.

I would suggest you visit the jamestown Foundation (a prestigious Washington DC conflict watchdog) which has a weekly newsbulletin about the situation.

You can visit it here http://www.jamestown.org/regions/thecaucasus/

Every day there are armed assaults by them the opressors, and these are sincere muslims who are not the al-qaeda type extremists and are not extremists at all. Except for a few hiccups like Shamil Basayev and his excesses (Beslan School siege) the vast majority of our caucasus brothers are good people who do not commit terror acts and actually follow the rules and limitations of jihad fisabillah.

The interesting this is that this United Islamic Insurgency movement is popular amongst the civilian population of these small nations and enjoy the support of many ordinary people, and they are united under the Banner of Islam and Have one Emir who by all accounts is a decent and kind hearted man who hates extremism and fights a good fight. These brothers (and there are thousands of them involved in direct combat, plus many thousands more who offer assistance such as food shelter etc)seem to actually be winning May Allah(swt) continue to bless them!


Just thought you should know this.


These above mentioned mujahideen were not even praying before the 1994 Chechen war started, these are reverts in the truest sense of the word.

Salam a leikum
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salamfromrom
04-08-2009, 04:20 PM
Edit:

Insead of saying "These above mentioned mujahideen were not even praying before the 1994 Chechen war started, these are reverts in the truest sense of the word."

I should have said:

Most of these
These above mentioned mujahideen were not even praying before the 1994 Chechen war started, these are reverts in the truest sense of the word.

Salam
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yasin ibn Ahmad
04-08-2009, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
1 - Went to the first world war when it probably shouldnt have.

2 - rebel agents of the allied forces in arabia - eg lawrence of arabia who promised the arabs of independent state and convinced them to fight the Ottomans.

3 - too many attacks by too many nations (during the first world war)

4 - some say that the economy was in bad shape of the Ottomans - mix WW1 with that = disaster.

5 - on a religious note - time was up for the Ottomans - If you look at the sultans of the Ottoman empire after Sulieman the lawgiver you will see that most of leaders were not realy acting like leaders - Instead they just gave the job to the Vizers.

6 - Linked with 5 the Ulema (religous scholars) lost authority to the sultan.

I'm sure there there are many reasons to it too. - My opnion - too many attacks by too many people within and outside of the chaliphate.
I agree with brother Zafran.I also should say I believe that the flag of Islam will raise from where it was fallen down.Caliphate is related mostly politics and governing the state not religion.Relatively the most powerful Muslim country is Turkey, the successor of Ottoman Empire.
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Dawud_uk
04-10-2009, 09:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by yasin ibn Ahmad
I agree with brother Zafran.I also should say I believe that the flag of Islam will raise from where it was fallen down.Caliphate is related mostly politics and governing the state not religion.Relatively the most powerful Muslim country is Turkey, the successor of Ottoman Empire.
you misunderstand totally, the religion is complete way of life, including politics, economics, social issues. there is not an area of life left alone by the deen.
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Uthman
04-10-2009, 04:00 PM
Greetings Thinker,
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I believe Islam would benefit from a Caliph in the style of the Pope, a single head who makes the final decision on which interpretation is correct and one that stays out of politics.
A few points here:

1. Like I have already mentioned, differences of opinion on minor issues are acceptable in Islam. The earliest scholars of Islam differed on some minor issues and they were from the best of generations so no one person in this day and age is going to decide which interpretation is correct.

2. Islam and politics are inextricably linked so the only recognisable leader of Islam in any form would be the head of an Islamic state who would rule with guidance from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
At the moment there are so many ‘scholars’ and ‘sheiks’ giving their interpretation on what is and what isn’t that any Muslim with any viewpoint can find a scholar to agree with his interpretation of Islam.
I mentioned elsewhere that I think this is an exaggeration.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Of electing a Caliph will never happen, if the Muslim world can’t agree on a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian problem they’d never agree on who should be Caliph.
1. I'm not sure what you mean about a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian issue. Please clarify that.

2. Did you see my link about how a Caliph would be chosen?

Regards
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Muezzin
04-13-2009, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Of electing a Caliph will never happen, if the Muslim world can’t agree on a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian problem they’d never agree on who should be Caliph.
Er... the world at large can't agree on a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian problem, but that hasn't ground all voters' heads into the sand, has it?

In the case of a Caliphate, it is more to do with a general lack of unity between Muslims globally, which leads to petty sectarian squabbles. Simple differences of opinion become huge arguments become fights etc, and everyone forgets to say 'Hey, we're all Muslim, right?'

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i dont think that is necessarily a problem, the prophet muhammad (saws) said we would split into different sects and we have. that doesnt prevent khilafa.

it is not necessary for all muslims to unite for us to re-establish islamic rule, it can happen in one place then spread inshallah over the years.

i personally think the most likely place for this is still afghanistan and pakistan border region.
Could be...
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AntiKarateKid
04-13-2009, 07:44 PM
For me the simple answer is:

A caliphate, like terrorism, is as real as the Ummah wants it to be. We can stand back and let terrorists distort Islam or we can wrench it back and clear our names. We can make a Caliphate but we'd need unity. And so far, Muslims are far from united these days. imsad

C'mon Mahdi! :enough!:
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Uthman
04-13-2009, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
"Hadhrat Huzaifa narrated that the Messenger of Allah said: Prophethood will remain among you as long as Allah wills. Then Caliphate (Khilafat) on the lines of Prophethood shall commence, and remain as long as Allah wills. Then corrupt/erosive monarchy would take place, and it will remain as long as Allah wills. After that, despotic kingship would emerge, and it will remain as long as Allah wills. Then, the Caliphate (Khilafat) shall come once again based on the precept of Prophethood."
Thus far, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) seems to have given an accurate foretelling of future events, ay? I suppose we are at the stage of corrupt/erosive monarchy at the moment?
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nebula
04-13-2009, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

No that is no surprise. I am now trying to find reference as to how and why I came to under the impression that the next Caliph will be the Mehdi and there will no Caliphate until he comes.
i also think the next caliphate will be Mahdi.
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Pomak
04-13-2009, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noorahmad
I consider the ottoman rule to be a monarchy, the sultan was not elected as Islam teaches us that the caliph need to be elected.
I dont think that the caliphate would work, but nonetheless we should try to realize it, or at least to have the intention
Careful, such statements are problematic in light of the hadiths about the conquest of Constantinople. And the general length of the Ottoman Dynasty.

If we are to believe such a thing, then we must engage in some historical revisionism about some of the things that existed under the Ottomans.
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alcurad
04-13-2009, 11:29 PM
the concept of caliphate is a flawed one, no one should assume the authority the prophet had, Abu Bakr and the people who supported him made a grave mistake in that regard, his misunderstanding should be repeated for the sake of itself.
rather what comes to mind when caliphate is said is some form of over simplified medieval political system that wouldn't be enough to rule a city let alone a pan continental-imaginary-entity called the Ummah.
dreams are nice 'm guessing, some are atleast, rather we should wake up and live in this world, this 'space-time' as it were.
the past is just that; past, that shouldn't be hard to figure out though.
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Pomak
04-13-2009, 11:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
the concept of caliphate is a flawed one, no one should assume the authority the prophet had, Abu Bakr and the people who supported him made a grave mistake in that regard, his misunderstanding should be repeated for the sake of itself.
rather what comes to mind when caliphate is said is some form of over simplified medieval political system that wouldn't be enough to rule a city let alone a pan continental-imaginary-entity called the Ummah.
dreams are nice 'm guessing, some are atleast, rather we should wake up and live in this world, this 'space-time' as it were.
the past is just that; past, that shouldn't be hard to figure out though.
So we ignore a bunch of hadiths because they say things we don't like?
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burdenofbeing
04-13-2009, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noorahmad
I consider the ottoman rule to be a monarchy, the sultan was not elected as Islam teaches us that the caliph need to be elected.
I dont think that the caliphate would work, but nonetheless we should try to realize it, or at least to have the intention
the election of the caliph and the matter of unity was stressed as early as the caliphate of عثمان and علي. Of course also continuously after that.

The system of having respected sheiks and scholars (which would act similar to parliementers) who would then decide on one person as a caliph ( without the need of the person nominating himself ) like the vatican would be both authentic to the real deal, and for the better.

Caliphate was taken down, because it let itself be taken down.
When the last caliph called for unity, the muslims chose nationality and other short term pragmatic matters over his words. The new Turkish parliement held the power of caliphate in itself for one term, and then it was terminated, as it proved more problems than solutions. at least for the purposes of Ataturk.

---

my opinion, is that a caliphate is realistic, and much needed. it's also a great chance to form a decisive power in this modern era, with modern communication tools, which can be a milestone in human history.
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alcurad
04-14-2009, 01:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
So we ignore a bunch of hadiths because they say things we don't like?
which ones are being ignored?
did the prophet ever say he should be succeeded in position of prophet hood? changing what was not meant to be changed was what the most 'khulafa' did, simply browse our 'glorious' history and see for yourself what was done.
even the good ones came by by nothing more than a fluke, there was no system in place to insure a just ruler to begin with.
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alcurad
04-14-2009, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
The system of having respected sheiks and scholars (which would act similar to parliementers) who would then decide on one person as a caliph ( without the need of the person nominating himself ) like the vatican would be both authentic to the real deal, and for the better.
establishing churches is not part of our religion brother, and the ruler/s of any muslim country should be chosen by all muslims, not a few self styled scholars who most probably know next to nill when it comes politics and government.
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Pomak
04-14-2009, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
which ones are being ignored?
did the prophet ever say he should be succeeded in position of prophet hood? changing what was not meant to be changed was what the most 'khulafa' did, simply browse our 'glorious' history and see for yourself what was done.
even the good ones came by by nothing more than a fluke, there was no system in place to insure a just ruler to begin with.
Firstly only the first 4/5 khalifs ruled "in position of prophet hood".

I've had enough arguments with HT brothers to know my rightly guided khalifs from the rest.

It basically comes down to that the first 4 held political and religious authority. (And the HT people i've talked to seem to be under the delusion that this is a viable method with the crop of muslim leaders today)
All the ones after them held political authority while the scholars held the religious authority.

That being the major distinction between the papacy and the khalifate.
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burdenofbeing
04-14-2009, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
establishing churches is not part of our religion brother, and the ruler/s of any muslim country should be chosen by all muslims, not a few self styled scholars who most probably know next to nill when it comes politics and government.
Have I said we should establish churches? The people also know next to nil when it comes to politics and government; are you proposing some sort of aristocracy? Besides there seems to be a misunderstanding.

Proposing a modern caliphate that has both governing and religious power is not realistic. It would mean one united country of islam. How realistic do you think it would be in the current state of the world? A religious consensus power, similar to papacy, is a much more realistic possibility, and a priority over the other.
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Pomak
04-14-2009, 02:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
Have I said we should establish churches? The people also know next to nil when it comes to politics and government; are you proposing some sort of aristocracy? Besides there seems to be a misunderstanding.

Proposing a modern caliphate that has both governing and religious power is not realistic. It would mean one united country of islam. How realistic do you think it would be in the current state of the world? A religious consensus power, similar to papacy, is a much more realistic possibility, and a priority over the other.
With the advocacy of something "similar to papacy", does that include the conformist tendencies that the Papacy is know for?
Reply

alcurad
04-14-2009, 02:28 AM
brother pomak, what is an HT brother:?
anyway, even the first four committed mistakes, that system is no longer viable, it was enough for a tribal society, the complexity of government nowadays is unparalleled through history.
the muslim community as a whole decides who rules, not a few scholars, who appoints the scholars who choose the ruler in the first place? themselves? more scholars? it's simply not viable any other way.

brother burdenofbeing, still my statement stands, we don't create churches. any political system where decision making mainly involves the clergy is another Vatican, the Vatican is a church, where the clergy rule/d & appoint/ed governors. such is not allowed in Islam, since we should not have clergy-in our case they call themselves scholars/mullah etc-in the first place.

nota bene: the american or most European governments is/are more Islamic than our Islamic governments in many respects.
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Pomak
04-14-2009, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
brother pomak, what is an HT brother:?
anyway, even the first four committed mistakes, that system is no longer viable, it was enough for a tribal society, the complexity of government nowadays is unparalleled through history.
the muslim community as a whole decides who rules, not a few scholars, who appoints the scholars who choose the ruler in the first place? themselves? more scholars? it's simply not viable any other way.

brother burdenofbeing, still my statement stands, we don't create churches. any political system where decision making mainly involves the clergy is another Vatican, the Vatican is a church, where the clergy rule/d & appoint/ed governors. such is not allowed in Islam, since we should not have clergy-in our case they call themselves scholars/mullah etc-in the first place.

nota bene: the american or most European governments is/are more Islamic than our Islamic governments in many respects.
HT= Hizb ut Tahrir

My suggestion is look up history and some of the hadiths around muslim leadership.

Also are these comments of yours based on some scholar's work or just your opinions?
Reply

burdenofbeing
04-14-2009, 03:29 AM
pomak, no. it would be the total opposite of what we expect to find in a caliphate. I would like to think we would also be able to "straighten them if they were to become crooked"

alcurad, the system I proposed would be for a religious body, not a government. A percentage of scholar/mullah parliementers would be picked by people, without having candidates. There are already many people who we think represent our stance in Islam best.

If, miraculously, somehow all muslim countries would merge together to form united states of islam, then I would like to have to different governmental bodies, one political, one religious.

at any rate, the most important position needed now, is a single organ to serve as the ear and mouth of muslim people.
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alcurad
04-14-2009, 04:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
HT= Hizb ut Tahrir

My suggestion is look up history and some of the hadiths around muslim leadership.

Also are these comments of yours based on some scholar's work or just your opinions?
oh I see.
your suggestion is very good :), now have you actually considered that I might already done my homework-so to speak on such matters?
it's a very vague one too, can you actually provide an example of some ahadeeth around muslim leadership that you don't think I agreed with thus ignored?

brother burdenofbeing, I see your point, but they should not have authority per their status as clergy. rather maybe they could serve as an advisory committee and so on.
I don't think memorizing ahadeeth and fiqh rulings is enough to run a government.
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جوري
04-14-2009, 03:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
Have I said we should establish churches? The people also know next to nil when it comes to politics and government; are you proposing some sort of aristocracy? Besides there seems to be a misunderstanding.

Proposing a modern caliphate that has both governing and religious power is not realistic. It would mean one united country of islam. How realistic do you think it would be in the current state of the world? A religious consensus power, similar to papacy, is a much more realistic possibility, and a priority over the other.
The reason this works for Christianity though I have my doubts with the endless scandals and the velvet brocade smoke screen, is that Jesus didn't establish a political/economic system, he didn't actually linger around long enough to if anything enforce the laws of the OT, he came to a people who didn't want him. and Christianity is so deranged and steeped in pagan rituals and a million sect that it would be impossible for them to have it any other way, I mean we all saw what happened under 'Christendom' which is very unlike the case with Islam, we have a complete political/economic/ social structure/religious system that all that need be is implementation.. of course there is a fiqh to the deen (unchanging) and a fiqh to worldly affairs (needs ijtihad) The only thing standing in our way, is that it would spell absolute disaster for the west to have a Muslim umma.. it would be the dissolution of their being.. so they'll have us in a million wars, at odds with each other and we are already by nature very heated people-- as much corruption as there was under the last of the Ottomans it was still better than this current state we are in!

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
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burdenofbeing
04-14-2009, 04:37 PM
that's not the only thing standing in our way. even in thought, the muslims world is in disarray and discord right now. neither the muslims nor their countries would like to implement a program like EU, let alone an islamic united states or a united country. not today.

as I've said before, we need a single mouth to speak with the muslims and non-muslims. an islamic, religious representative body.
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Dawud_uk
04-15-2009, 05:18 AM
:sl: burdenofbeing

the muslim countries being united is not a prerequisite of the khilafa being re-established. one land could do it and the rest follow.

the proof of this is that in the past there was parts of the muslim lands which didnt acknowledge the authority of the khalif and the khilafa destroyed them but this didnt in itself bring down the khilafa.

so one land can go ahead first wherever the muslims get strong enough and then the rest will follow.

:sl:
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burdenofbeing
04-15-2009, 05:23 AM
so, we destroy each other in the name of unity?
got it. brilliant plan.
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Thinker
04-15-2009, 01:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
HT= Hizb ut Tahrir
I sent them an email asking why they were based in the UK i.e. why are a bunch of Muslims fighting for a Caliphate for all Muslims not based in a Muslim country. They replied that they had other offices in Muslim countries. . . I emailed them back asking them where those other offices were and why one of those wasn't their HQ and they didn't reply!!
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alcurad
04-15-2009, 02:02 PM
are we arguing semantics here? what exactly IS this khilafa? are you suggesting that the way it was done before is how the creator ordained governments to be?
there is no evidence for whatever khilafa is meant, it is an arabic term, that's all there is to it.
something like the US or the EU would be a step forward, but a muslim papacy ruled by the 'rightly guided' clergy is anything but Islamic.
Reply

greenshirt
04-17-2009, 04:39 AM
it would be great if we could establish a caliphate. but with all the different muslim countries these days, it would be really hard. many countries have their own healthcare systems and their own tax regulations. also if we had one unified caliphate then what would the migration deal be like? will more prosperous areas like dubai be filled with people and would people leave pakistan and other poorer countries? and we know this would cause problems to have such mass migrations.

and not only that but will the caliph be a sufi or not? many muslims(most in pakistan) are sufi and would oppose to having a salafi caliph. but if we have a salafi caliph he would be opposed to the ashari aqeedah which some say if you follow takes you out of islam.

i hope and pray that a Caliphate will be established. we desperately need this. we need a society that can be regulated to minimize fitnah and that could work in the interests of our religion.

but is it realistically going to happen? i dont know. i hope so! but sometimes hope is not always realistic. at least for a certain time or under certain implication
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-17-2009, 05:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by greenshirt
it would be great if we could establish a caliphate. but with all the different muslim countries these days, it would be really hard. many countries have their own healthcare systems and their own tax regulations. also if we had one unified caliphate then what would the migration deal be like? will more prosperous areas like dubai be filled with people and would people leave pakistan and other poorer countries? and we know this would cause problems to have such mass migrations.

and not only that but will the caliph be a sufi or not? many muslims(most in pakistan) are sufi and would oppose to having a salafi caliph. but if we have a salafi caliph he would be opposed to the ashari aqeedah which some say if you follow takes you out of islam.

i hope and pray that a Caliphate will be established. we desperately need this. we need a society that can be regulated to minimize fitnah and that could work in the interests of our religion.

but is it realistically going to happen? i dont know. i hope so! but sometimes hope is not always realistic. at least for a certain time or under certain implication
:sl:

look at what happened in afghanistan, a deobandi movement - the taliban supported by the salafiyyah through arms, mujahideen and money.

so it can happen, there are differences which are acceptable and differences which are not.
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