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Cern
04-08-2009, 10:41 PM
I keep seeing Christians (mostly Catholics) beating this dead horse where they accuse the Qur'an of depicting the Virgin Mary to be part of the Trinity. When I read these two Surah's that supposedly depicts this accusation I fail to see the connection.

Sahih International Translation:
An-Nisa:
171: "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs."
Al-Maeda:
72: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers."

73: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."

74: "So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

75: "The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded."

116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen".
So am I right in my assumption that the Qur'an doesn't depict the Virgin Mary as part of the Trinity and the error comes from translation or have I missed something and the Qur'an does suggest such a thing?
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'Abd-al Latif
04-09-2009, 08:06 AM
Hi Cern.

Yes you're right, the Qur'an doesn't say such a thing. In fact you'll be surprised to believe that the Qur'an doesn't even agree to the trinity and it's the verse that you have already quoted.

A translation of the Qur'an by Yusuf Ali says:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. [Al Meada 5:73]
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Cern
04-09-2009, 11:31 AM
So all this fuss was caused by a poor translation of the Qur'an or just plain ignorance?
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'Abd-al Latif
04-10-2009, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Cern
So all this fuss was caused by a poor translation of the Qur'an or just plain ignorance?
It could be because of poor translation, but I highly suspect plain ignorance.
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Whatsthepoint
04-12-2009, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Cern
I keep seeing Christians (mostly Catholics) beating this dead horse where they accuse the Qur'an of depicting the Virgin Mary to be part of the Trinity. When I read these two Surah's that supposedly depicts this accusation I fail to see the connection.
What about this verse?

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? 5:116
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Imam
04-15-2009, 10:49 AM
:sl:


Peace


The translations of the verses all is ok ,and no problem with them....

As a matter of fact the accusation of the Catholics and other sects too is of 2 points:

1-the Quran depicts christians as believing that Mary is God .

2- the Quran depicts Mary to be a person of the Trinity.

the verse under discussion:

116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen".


1-the Quran depicts christians as believing that Mary is God .?


The key word here is the word in the verse
(Alehatan) which is translated (deities,gods)

What does taking(someone,something) as a god in Islam means?

1-To believe in him,her,it as the creator.
or to believe that he,she,it would influence your life or life of others directly or indirectly in a way that only God is able to....
or Calling upon others [graves, mystics, saints, idols, Mary etc.] besides Allah for help,or intercession.

Holy Quran 72:20 Say, "I call unto my Lord alone and associate no one with Him
7:192 And they cannot help them, nor can they help themselves.
7:197 Whomever you call instead of Him, have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.







2- the Quran depicts Mary to be a person of the Trinity?


The holy Quran 73: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God.

The verse mentions the Trinity but where does it name what is said to be its persons?

The holy Quran116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?

If the verse aimed at defining the trinity it would certaily contains the so called third person of it (The holy spirit)....

If they argue of a verse claiming Mary to be part of the trinity then they have to bring us such verse which mentions the 3 persons of the trinity including Mary...

If the verse says 116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother and the holy spirit as deities besides Allah ?

then their argument may have some validity....


Peace
Reply

AntiKarateKid
04-15-2009, 04:22 PM
The Quran doesn't say she is a part of the trinity but it does say that they worship her.

In order to understand what the word "worship" means in this context is basically this...

You know how people have statues of her, psometimes pray to those statues and ask for her help, and generally offer prayers to her? That is worship, because they are only supposed to ask Allah directly for such things because noone but him can help them.
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Whatsthepoint
04-16-2009, 07:30 AM
ATK, it's quite obvious what the number 3 in verse 5:116 refers to.
Originally Posted by imam
1-To believe in him,her,it as the creator.
or to believe that he,she,it would influence your life or life of others directly or indirectly in a way that only God is able to....
or Calling upon others [graves, mystics, saints, idols, Mary etc.] besides Allah for help,or intercession.
1. Catholic only make up half the World's Christian population.
2. You could say Catholic attitude to Mary would falls under the islamic definition of god, but you'd be mistaken as the Catholic faith doesn't teach so. Yes, sainst can intercect, that's the only part of the Catholic tachings you got right. Intercession is far from god and it applies to all saints, so why does your book only mention one of them?
Some people may appear to treat Mary as god and spent to much time praying etc, but no persona actually considers her to be god. I am aware the islamic definition of god is different and certain Catholic attitute to AMry could make her a god, however, the verse is targeted at Christians so it would make sense that it will use christian terminology - so crhistians can understand it and realize oh how terribly wrong they were.
It should have mentioned the Holy spirit whom Christians actually consider to be a part of the trinity.
Reply

Cern
04-16-2009, 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You could say Catholic attitude to Mary would falls under the islamic definition of god, but you'd be mistaken as the Catholic faith doesn't teach so. Yes, sainst can intercect, that's the only part of the Catholic tachings you got right. Intercession is far from god and it applies to all saints, so why does your book only mention one of them?
Well to be honest the term Saint and how it is applied is man made. There are thousands of Catholic Saints alone and a person can only become one by being canonized by the church (by man). Since God created Mary, mother of Jesus, then it would seem natural that the Qur'an only mentions Mary.
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GreyKode
04-16-2009, 11:14 AM
he verse is targeted at Christians so it would make sense that it will use christian terminology - so crhistians can understand it and realize oh how terribly wrong they were.
It should have mentioned the Holy spirit whom Christians actually consider to be a part of the trinity.
How about the accuracy of the Quran in mentioning the different chrisitian(Nasarenes a more accurate term mentioned in the Quran) beliefs
1)Jesus is son of God
2)Jesus is God.
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GreyKode
04-16-2009, 11:24 AM
I believe the concept of Holy spirit in chrisitianity in something ridiculous, disputed, vague and overemphasised, to be mentioned in the Quran.
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Imam
04-16-2009, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
ATK, it's quite obvious what the number 3 in verse 5:116 refers to..

Thank you for your note .....now I got where the problem

I concentrated only on the word (deities) in the verse in all translations and that is why I missed translation of Shakir

where is the problem

Shakir:
And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah.

The word (men doon) من دون in the verse


‏5:116 واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب

translated by shakir as (besides) while it means literally

instead of ,apart from ,without ,other than .....



And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto people, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'

Other examples of the same word in the Quran:

PICKTHAL:043.086 And those unto whom they cry instead of(men doon) Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly.

10.018 They serve, apart from God(men doon), what hurts them not neither profits them, and they say, 'These are our intercessors with God.' Say: 'Will you tell God what He knows not either in the heavens or in the earth?' Glory be to Him! High be He exalted above that they associate!

36:23What, shall I take, apart from(men doon) Him, gods whose intercession, if the All-merciful desires affliction for me, shall not avail me anything, and who will never deliver me?

6:51 And warn with it those who fear to be brought before their Lord that they have no guardian or intercessor, other than Allah(men doon), in order that they are cautious.

53:57
The final judgement draws near.none except Allah(men doon) can disclose it.

6:108 Abuse not those to whom they pray, apart from God(men doon), or they will abuse God in revenge without knowledge.


There are other verses ...but I think those are enough to convey the fact....

Question : what is the proper word to convey the meaning of (besides,with) and hence gives the meaning of a trinity of (father,son,Mary)?

It is the word (m3a) which means (besides ,with)...
and it is mentioned in the Quran in the same context:

27:60
امن خلق السماوات والارض وانزل لكم من السماء ماء فانبتنا به حدائق ذات بهجة ما كان لكم ان تنبتوا شجرها االه مع الله بل هم قوم يعدلون

Look how all the translators translated it :

Yusuf Ali Or, Who has created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends you down rain from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty of delight: it is not in your power to cause the growth of the trees in them. (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, they are a people who swerve from justice.

Pickthal Is not He (best) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sendeth down for you water from the sky wherewith We cause to spring forth joyous orchards, whose trees it never hath been yours to cause to grow. Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but they are folk who ascribe equals (unto Him)!

Arberry He who created the heavens and earth, and sent down for you out of heaven water; and We caused to grow therewith gardens full of loveliness whose trees you could never grow. Is there a god with God? Nay, but they are a people who assign to Him equals!

Shakir Nay, He Who created the heavens and the earth, and sent down for you water from the cloud; then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens; it is not possible for you that you should make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! they are people who deviate.

Sarwar (Are the idols worthier or) the One who has created the heavens and the earth, who has sent water from the sky for you, who has established delightful gardens and you could not even plant one tree? Is there any Lord besides God? In fact, the unbelievers are the ones who deviate from the right path.

Khalifa Who is the One who created the heavens and the earth? Who is the One who sends down to you from the sky water, whereby we produce gardens full of beauty - you could not possibly manufacture its trees? Is it another god with GOD? Indeed, they are people who have deviated.

Hilali/Khan Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!

H/K/Saheeh [More precisely], is He [not best] who created the heavens and the earth and sent down for you rain from the sky, causing to grow thereby gardens of joyful beauty which you could not [otherwise] have grown the trees thereof? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but they are a people who ascribe equals [to Him].

Malik Is not He (Allah), Who has created the heavens and the earth, sends down rain from the sky and with it brings forth the beautiful gardens not better than the false gods that they worship? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of trees for those gardens. Is there another god besides Allah who could do that? No doubt they are a people who have swerved from justice in ascribing equals to Him.[60]

QXP Nay, who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the sky? And with it We cause to spring forth beautiful orchards. It was never of your doing to make the trees in them grow - any god beside Allah? Nay, they who think so are people who are deviating (from reality).

Maulana Ali Or, Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the cloud? Then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens -- it is not possible for you to make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay, they are a people who deviate!

Free Minds The One who created the heavens and the Earth, and He sent down water from the sky for you, so We cause gardens to grow with it that are full of beauty. It is not your ability to cause the growth of its trees. Is there a god with God? No. But they are a people who ascribe equals!

Qaribullah Is He who created the heavens and the earth, and sent water from the sky for you and caused gardens to grow full of beauty of which its tree you could never grow, is there a god with Allah? No, but they are a nation who set up equals with Him!

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

1. Catholic only make up half the World's Christian population...
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto People, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said,

what people in the verse refers to?

The verse simply tells a scene of day of judgment:

Allah will ask Jesus;

Did you preach TO THE PEOPLE that you and your mother are gods apart from God?


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
2. You could say Catholic attitude to Mary would falls under the islamic definition of god, but you'd be mistaken as the Catholic faith doesn't teach so. .

Let them teach whatever they like ,but we let the prayer to Mary speak of itself:

Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin, Help of Christians, we place ourselves under your motherly protection. Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the Comforter of the dying.


"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.

Mary, all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.


surely the catholics don't believe in Mary as God the creator but the previous sample of prayers shows what violates the definition of Monotheism according to Islam.....
7:197 Whomever you call instead of Him, have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.

Call our Islamic view of monothiesm as strict (as some christians say).

our terms of our strict monotheism is simple .... 1-to believe in a unique and indivisible being who is independent of the creation,and has no persons .
2- to direct the worship at him and only him without any mediator of any kind.

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Intercession is far from god and it applies to all saints, so why does your book only mention one of them? .
go to the previous verses In the post to see how many saints(and other false gods too) is mentioned.


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
the verse is targeted at Christians so it would make sense that it will use christian terminology - so crhistians can understand it and realize oh how terribly wrong they were.
.
It is done before

5:77 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Surah 4: 169. O ye people of the Book! do not exceed in your religion, nor say against God aught save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, is but the apostle of God and His Word, which He cast into Mary, and a spirit from Him; believe then in God and His apostles, and say not "Three." Have done! it were better for you. God is only one God,


you have seen ,the Quran condemns them in their terminology (three persons in one God) ,and condemns them and other religions too in other terms (the issue of the worship and intercession)....


why no verse mentions the holy spirit by name as being god?

,cause the Quran concentrate on the act of worship ....
though the holy spirit is part of the so called trinity ,yet no christian ever direct his prayer to the holy spirit , he rather resort to the physical beings(which he has imaginary pictures of them in his mind) so he pray, ask Jesus etc... to support him by such holy spirit....

not to pray for the holy spirit to support him with Jesus...

peace
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Whatsthepoint
04-16-2009, 06:49 PM
Allah will ask Jesus;

Did you preach TO THE PEOPLE that you and your mother are gods apart from God?
Jesus never says such a thing in the Bible and every Christian slightly educated about the Christian faith will know Mary is not a god. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are. And if the verse uses the word gods and it is targeted at Christians it is pure nonsense. Christians do not believe Mary is a god or a part of the trinity and having Jesus tell them this is useless.
A portion of Christians may hold the belief of intercession but it not only applies to Mary but also to saints, guardian angels etc, so mentioning Mary besides Jsus and God is again senseless.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-16-2009, 07:19 PM
Your right, the BIBLE doesn't, but Christians and those alike claim Mary is and this is what Allah refers too. So technically there's nothing wrong with the verse :)
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Whatsthepoint
04-16-2009, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Your right, the BIBLE doesn't, but Christians and those alike claim Mary is and this is what Allah refers too. So technically there's nothing wrong with the verse :)
No they don't and yes it is.
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Imam
04-16-2009, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Jesus never says such a thing in the Bible .
Exactly ! that is why he will comment:
"Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right.


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
and every Christian slightly educated about the Christian faith will know Mary is not a god. .
And every pagan Arab before Islam would know that Hubal, Wadd,Manat etc... are not Gods

but they reason their prayers for such idols (as what is done with mary and saints)

Quran39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God" .

christians repeat the same old song !.....

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
so mentioning Mary besides Jesus and God is again senseless .
you repeat again the same point been refuted liguestically in my last post!!....
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Follower
04-17-2009, 12:41 AM
LOL! I am a non-Catholic Christian and I can tell you no Christian believes that Mary is a god or has any power what so ever to answer prayers. She is a beautiful example of someone willing to submit to GOD's will.

I believe to the Catholic praying to Mary is having Mary put in a good word for them to GOD.

Bowing down to pictures of Mary, figures is simply a sign of respect exactly like Muslims bowing to the black cube. We all know that the black cube is not Allah right? Or like Muslims throwing rocks at the satan pillars, stone. Do you think you are really throwing away your sin or throwing a rock at satan?
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جوري
04-17-2009, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Imam
Exactly ! that is why he will comment:
"Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right.



And every pagan Arab before Islam would know that Hubal, Wadd,Manat etc... are not gods

but they reason their prayers for such idols (as what is done with mary and saints)

Quran39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God" .

christians repeat the same old song !.....



you repeat again the same point been refuted liguestically in my last post!!....
I have been to catholic school and they have multitudes of prayers toward Mary (p), I have actually posted some of them on this board.. a prayer to anything beside God is taking other Gods besides him. That is the veru defintion of shirk, whether or not they call her Goddess is irrelvant as their actions are more telling..

Also I don't understand the resident moron's comparison between a rock and a painted woman in a veil to represent their God's mother, It doesn't matter how Christians allege they don't worship her, putting painted pictures of women some whom were W hores such as caravaggio's death of the virgin, where he literally fished out a newly dead w hore and made her to resemble the 'mother of God' is as sacrilegious as I can think of, where is the 'respect there', I don't think actual pagans are as brazen or misguided as chrisitians at least they don't sell you a triple God in one!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-17-2009, 01:39 AM
yes they do. it depends on who u talkin too @ wtp
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Whatsthepoint
04-17-2009, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
yes they do. it depends on who u talkin too @ wtp
I can tell for a fact that the vast majority of Christians do not worship Mary and do not think of her as a deity of any sort or powers.
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YusufNoor
04-17-2009, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I can tell for a fact that the vast majority of Christians do not worship Mary and do not think of her as a deity of any sort or powers.
hmm let's see, how does that prayer go?:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
she's called the mother of god!

AND, even though she is neither God, nor alive, they are praying TO her!

making dua IS worship! therefore, they ARE worshiping Mary!

and to elaborate:

Can we add to the title Mediatrix that of co-redemptrix? In the light of the above, the answer is affirmative. In fact the Council itself, so as to avoid any false interpretation, adds that the use of these titles is legitimate. But it must be understood "that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator"
source:
http://zenit.org/article-17236?l=english

here the pope is saying that Mary is the equal redemer with with Christ, whom they consider God, ergo, CATHOLICS CONSIDER MARY GOD!

next time you would like to post FACTS, let us know up front if by FACTS you mean LIES! Jack Webb, you are not!

edit: the largest denomination of Christians IS...........Catholic!


:w:
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Whatsthepoint
04-17-2009, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
hmm let's see, how does that prayer go?:



she's called the mother of god!

AND, even though she is neither God, nor alive, they are praying TO her!

making dua IS worship! therefore, they ARE worshiping Mary!

and to elaborate:



source:
http://zenit.org/article-17236?l=english

here the pope is saying that Mary is the equal redemer with with Christ, whom they consider God, ergo, CATHOLICS CONSIDER MARY GOD!

next time you would like to post FACTS, let us know up front if by FACTS you mean LIES! Jack Webb, you are not!

edit: the largest denomination of Christians IS...........Catholic!


:w:
Yes, the mother of God title refers to her mothering Jesus. And reread the prayer, it's not praying to Mary but rather asking her to pray.
Also reread what you quoted.
Mary is not a god according to catholic teachings. she is greately respected and considered the best human being ever to walk the earth, more akin to Muhammad in Islam than anything else.
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Walter
04-17-2009, 07:24 PM
I do not know about you, but it literally pained me to view those persons bowing down before the statue of Mary.

Regards.
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AntiKarateKid
04-17-2009, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by Grenville
I do not know about you, but it literally pained me to view those persons bowing down before the statue of Mary.

Regards.
Same here! :thumbs_up
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doorster
05-21-2009, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No they don't and yes it is.
we made up these pics?



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Grace Seeker
05-21-2009, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Christians do not believe Mary is a god or a part of the trinity and having Jesus tell them this is useless.
You are quite correct that Christians do not believe Mary is a god nor does anyone believe she is part of the trinity. But, as best as I can tell, that is not the point from an Islamic perspective.

Perhaps you are familiar with the phrase "if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and swims like a duck...."? I think that Muslims are looking at our actions more than our words. We may say that Mary is not a duck, or not god. But what they see is a type of adoration that in their thinking is to be reserved only for God. So, regardless of what we say is going on in our minds, they still see it as worship. Thus Christians (or at least those involved in the veneration of Mary) are either guilty of making Mary a God or of worshipping a human being. It's pretty bad either way.

On the other hand, if Muslims would quit judging us and use the standard that they do with one another -- letting God judge what is in one's heart, they would not be as concerned. For God knows that those who venerate Mary are not worshipping her, rather they find that someone she helps them to worship him. Therefore they thank her for this help and seek her continual help in order that they might worship God even better and more fully. But no Christian, however confusing the language and behavior, not even in the above pictures, actually has a heart devoted to Mary in the sense that they perceive her and worship her as God.
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doorster
05-21-2009, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You are quite correct that Christians do not believe Mary is a god nor does anyone believe she is part of the trinity. But, as best as I can tell, that is not the point from an Islamic perspective.

Perhaps you are familiar with the phrase "if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and swims like a duck...."? I think that Muslims are looking at our actions more than our words. We may say that Mary is not a duck, or not god. But what they see is a type of adoration that in their thinking is to be reserved only for God. So, regardless of what we say is going on in our minds, they still see it as worship. Thus Christians (or at least those involved in the veneration of Mary) are either guilty of making Mary a God or of worshipping a human being. It's pretty bad either way.

On the other hand, if Muslims would quit judging us and use the standard that they do with one another -- letting God judge what is in one's heart, they would not be as concerned. For God knows that those who venerate Mary are not worshipping her, rather they find that someone she helps them to worship him. Therefore they thank her for this help and seek her continual help in order that they might worship God even better and more fully. But no Christian, however confusing the language and behavior, not even in the above pictures, actually has a heart devoted to Mary in the sense that they perceive her and worship her as God.
For God knows that those who venerate Mary are not worshipping her, rather they find that someone she helps them to worship him. Therefore they thank her for this help and seek her continual help in order that they might worship God even better and more fully. But no Christian, however confusing the language and behavior, not even in the above pictures, actually has a heart devoted to Mary in the sense that they perceive her and worship her as God.
so she hears them answers them, helps them?
Reply

doorster
05-21-2009, 11:25 PM
oh nearly forgot about this practice; where when people cross themselves on the chest while uttering the words "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph" (no mention of god the father or god the holy ghost)

you may also have come across letterheads with initials "J.M.J"
Reply

Zafran
05-21-2009, 11:47 PM
salaam

The christians dont believe Mary is God is there understanding - Christains also have zero problem of praying to Jesus pbuh and putting him into a trinity with the father and the holy ghost and yet still believe in one God. We all know what muslims think about this and what christains think about it.

By the way the pagan arabs used to say that they only pray to the idols to get closer to God. I'm sure the christians say the same thing about Mary.

For God knows that those who venerate Mary are not worshipping her, rather they find that someone she helps them to worship him. Therefore they thank her for this help and seek her continual help in order that they might worship God even better and more fully. But no Christian, however confusing the language and behavior, not even in the above pictures, actually has a heart devoted to Mary in the sense that they perceive her and worship her as God.
The Quran replies to that -

Quran39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God" .
peace
Reply

YusufNoor
05-21-2009, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
ATK, it's quite obvious what the number 3 in verse 5:116 refers to.

1. Catholic only make up half the World's Christian population.
2. You could say Catholic attitude to Mary would falls under the islamic definition of god, but you'd be mistaken as the Catholic faith doesn't teach so. Yes, sainst can intercect, that's the only part of the Catholic tachings you got right. Intercession is far from god and it applies to all saints, so why does your book only mention one of them?
Some people may appear to treat Mary as god and spent to much time praying etc, but no persona actually considers her to be god. I am aware the islamic definition of god is different and certain Catholic attitute to AMry could make her a god, however, the verse is targeted at Christians so it would make sense that it will use christian terminology - so crhistians can understand it and realize oh how terribly wrong they were.
It should have mentioned the Holy spirit whom Christians actually consider to be a part of the trinity.

well, genius, just how many Protestants do you think there were in 600 CE?
:omg:


Yes, the mother of God title refers to her mothering Jesus. And reread the prayer, it's not praying to Mary but rather asking her to pray.
Also reread what you quoted.
Mary is not a god according to catholic teachings. she is greately respected and considered the best human being ever to walk the earth, more akin to Muhammad in Islam than anything else.
i was raised Catholic genius boy. i KNOW the prayer. IN IT, you are calling on a dead person. she can't hear, she can't help. to us, THAT is worship! the same with praying to the saints.

what it is to you, who cares? we don't define things by your will or thoughts.

oh nearly forgot about this practice; where when people cross themselves on the chest while uttering the words "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph" (no mention of god the father or god the holy ghost)
actually, when they "cross themselves", they are usually make the chant "father son and holy ghost", HOWEVER when my mom was mad, "Jesus, Mary and Joseph" was EXACTLY what she would say! most of the time.
Reply

doorster
05-22-2009, 12:02 AM
....
Reply

Zafran
05-22-2009, 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
thanx looks different to when I first saw it and became a bit nervous, anyway I think I should get out of it now (I thought I was on a roll but I ain't)
salaam

Yeah i edited it to find the Quote from the Quran translation - it was posted earlier by Imam but it was ignored.

peace
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-22-2009, 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
oh nearly forgot about this practice; where when people cross themselves on the chest while uttering the words "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph" (no mention of god the father or god the holy ghost)

you may also have come across letterheads with initials "J.M.J"
Can you tell me more about who does this? I don't know of any persons who cross themselves after the manner you cite. I do know people who cross themselves on the chest while repeating the phrase, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen."

I am also unfamiliar with the use of the initials J.M.J.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-22-2009, 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
so she hears them answers them, helps them?
That is what those who follow that practice think.


Originally Posted by YusufNoor
i was raised Catholic genius boy. i KNOW the prayer. IN IT, you are calling on a dead person. she can't hear, she can't help. to us, THAT is worship! the same with praying to the saints.

what it is to you, who cares? we don't define things by your will or thoughts.
And that is the important point. Muslims don't define themselves or their understanding of worship by Catholic (or any other non-Islamic) standards. And Catholics don't define themselves or their understanding of worship according to Islam (or any other non-Catholic) standards.

Thus we have two different definitions of worship by two different groups. We are never going to have agreement as to which is right. The best we can hope for, in the spirit of understanding, is to recognize these other understandings are the ones that are indeed practiced by their respective faith communities. To say that the other is wrong might be the most likely felt response when trying to lead someone from error into truth, but it probably is the least likely way to earn any sort of real hearing if that is what we are interested.
Reply

doorster
05-22-2009, 01:38 PM
....
Reply

seeker-of-light
05-30-2009, 05:20 PM
it is christians ignorance of other religions other than their own. for example, i had a baptist christian who was running down not only my religion of islam but also my family's religion of catholicism. he said that islam worships a "moon god" because thats what he learned in his church and that catholics worship mary. i have been to church all my life (and am still forced to go even though i dont want to because of my mom) and i will say first that catholics don't worship mary. and CERTAINTLY i do not worship a moon god!! this is so stupid, churches should really do research on what their talking about before they start educating their followers against other religions.
Reply

Trumble
05-30-2009, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by seeker-of-light
churches should really do research on what their talking about before they start educating their followers against other religions.
They can't do that without losing most of their ammunition; why let actual facts get in the way? To be fair, though, you say 'churches', but it's just as true of some clerics for both other Christian denominations and other religions, including yours and mine.
Reply

Imam
05-31-2009, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by seeker-of-light
i will say first that catholics don't worship mary. .

peace be upon you

Sister, seeker-of-light

I think you missed the point under discussion

What is the point under discussion?

It is what is the meaning of taking (someone,something) as god (shirk)....

In Islamic terms :

1-To think of he,she,it as the creator.

or

2-To put (him,her,it) in the process of worship (which is none of his business).

The first term is valid to be applied to all Trinitarians.

the second to be applied to the Catholics ,whether they pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help eg;

We turn to you for protection,Holy Mother of God.Listen to our prayersand help us in our needs,Save us from every danger,Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless.
(Thousands of such prayer to be found on online)

or asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help eg;

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners.

both terms are acts that violates the definitions of monotheism according to Islam...

In other words Catholics takes Mary as god by praying directly to her asking for help,or by asking her for intercession...

The same way some sufi would take a so called (Wali) as god by asking him ,by his tomb for direct help or intercession
---------------------------------------------

peace
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-31-2009, 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by seeker-of-light
it is christians ignorance of other religions other than their own. for example, i had a baptist christian who was running down not only my religion of islam but also my family's religion of catholicism. he said that islam worships a "moon god" because thats what he learned in his church and that catholics worship mary. i have been to church all my life (and am still forced to go even though i dont want to because of my mom) and i will say first that catholics don't worship mary. and CERTAINTLY i do not worship a moon god!! this is so stupid, churches should really do research on what their talking about before they start educating their followers against other religions.
Yep, there are indeed some Christians who have swallowed these lies. I don't know who began them, but many of the more fundamentalist see anything that is not identical to their own way of worship as being not just different but wrong.

Tell you what I can do. If you promise to witness among your Islamic brothers and sisters your own personal knowledge that Catholics do not worship Mary. I can and will witness among my Christian brothers and sisters my own personal knowledge that Muslims do not worship a moon god.


This is going to be harder than it sounds, for Imam makes a valid point that for many Muslims the degree of devotion that many Catholics show for Mary may not be intended as worship from a Catholic's perspective, but is nevertheless seen as an act of worship by many Muslims, even when fully explained. And I'll have to deal with the same thing, as many Baptists and other fundamentalists Christians, using their own definitions of what constitutes worship, see the actions of those who make the pilgrimage to Mecca as evidence of worship to a moon god, even though such thoughts are not in the minds of any of those who participate in the Hajj.
Reply

love_quran
06-01-2009, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
Thank you for your note .....now I got where the problem

I concentrated only on the word (deities) in the verse in all translations and that is why I missed translation of Shakir

where is the problem

Shakir:
And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah.

The word (men doon) من دون in the verse


‏5:116 واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب

translated by shakir as (besides) while it means literally

instead of ,apart from ,without ,other than .....



And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto people, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'

Other examples of the same word in the Quran:

PICKTHAL:043.086 And those unto whom they cry instead of(men doon) Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly.

10.018 They serve, apart from God(men doon), what hurts them not neither profits them, and they say, 'These are our intercessors with God.' Say: 'Will you tell God what He knows not either in the heavens or in the earth?' Glory be to Him! High be He exalted above that they associate!

36:23What, shall I take, apart from(men doon) Him, gods whose intercession, if the All-merciful desires affliction for me, shall not avail me anything, and who will never deliver me?

6:51 And warn with it those who fear to be brought before their Lord that they have no guardian or intercessor, other than Allah(men doon), in order that they are cautious.

53:57
The final judgement draws near.none except Allah(men doon) can disclose it.

6:108 Abuse not those to whom they pray, apart from God(men doon), or they will abuse God in revenge without knowledge.


There are other verses ...but I think those are enough to convey the fact....

Question : what is the proper word to convey the meaning of (besides,with) and hence gives the meaning of a trinity of (father,son,Mary)?

It is the word (m3a) which means (besides ,with)...
and it is mentioned in the Quran in the same context:

27:60
امن خلق السماوات والارض وانزل لكم من السماء ماء فانبتنا به حدائق ذات بهجة ما كان لكم ان تنبتوا شجرها االه مع الله بل هم قوم يعدلون

Look how all the translators translated it :

Yusuf Ali Or, Who has created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends you down rain from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty of delight: it is not in your power to cause the growth of the trees in them. (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, they are a people who swerve from justice.

Pickthal Is not He (best) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sendeth down for you water from the sky wherewith We cause to spring forth joyous orchards, whose trees it never hath been yours to cause to grow. Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but they are folk who ascribe equals (unto Him)!

Arberry He who created the heavens and earth, and sent down for you out of heaven water; and We caused to grow therewith gardens full of loveliness whose trees you could never grow. Is there a god with God? Nay, but they are a people who assign to Him equals!

Shakir Nay, He Who created the heavens and the earth, and sent down for you water from the cloud; then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens; it is not possible for you that you should make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! they are people who deviate.

Sarwar (Are the idols worthier or) the One who has created the heavens and the earth, who has sent water from the sky for you, who has established delightful gardens and you could not even plant one tree? Is there any Lord besides God? In fact, the unbelievers are the ones who deviate from the right path.

Khalifa Who is the One who created the heavens and the earth? Who is the One who sends down to you from the sky water, whereby we produce gardens full of beauty - you could not possibly manufacture its trees? Is it another god with GOD? Indeed, they are people who have deviated.

Hilali/Khan Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!

H/K/Saheeh [More precisely], is He [not best] who created the heavens and the earth and sent down for you rain from the sky, causing to grow thereby gardens of joyful beauty which you could not [otherwise] have grown the trees thereof? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but they are a people who ascribe equals [to Him].

Malik Is not He (Allah), Who has created the heavens and the earth, sends down rain from the sky and with it brings forth the beautiful gardens not better than the false gods that they worship? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of trees for those gardens. Is there another god besides Allah who could do that? No doubt they are a people who have swerved from justice in ascribing equals to Him.[60]

QXP Nay, who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the sky? And with it We cause to spring forth beautiful orchards. It was never of your doing to make the trees in them grow - any god beside Allah? Nay, they who think so are people who are deviating (from reality).

Maulana Ali Or, Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the cloud? Then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens -- it is not possible for you to make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay, they are a people who deviate!

Free Minds The One who created the heavens and the Earth, and He sent down water from the sky for you, so We cause gardens to grow with it that are full of beauty. It is not your ability to cause the growth of its trees. Is there a god with God? No. But they are a people who ascribe equals!

Qaribullah Is He who created the heavens and the earth, and sent water from the sky for you and caused gardens to grow full of beauty of which its tree you could never grow, is there a god with Allah? No, but they are a nation who set up equals with Him!



And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto People, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said,

what people in the verse refers to?

The verse simply tells a scene of day of judgment:

Allah will ask Jesus;

Did you preach TO THE PEOPLE that you and your mother are gods apart from God?





Let them teach whatever they like ,but we let the prayer to Mary speak of itself:

Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin, Help of Christians, we place ourselves under your motherly protection. Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the Comforter of the dying.


"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.

Mary, all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.


surely the catholics don't believe in Mary as God the creator but the previous sample of prayers shows what violates the definition of Monotheism according to Islam.....
7:197 Whomever you call instead of Him, have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.

Call our Islamic view of monothiesm as strict (as some christians say).

our terms of our strict monotheism is simple .... 1-to believe in a unique and indivisible being who is independent of the creation,and has no persons .
2- to direct the worship at him and only him without any mediator of any kind.



go to the previous verses In the post to see how many saints(and other false gods too) is mentioned.




It is done before

5:77 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Surah 4: 169. O ye people of the Book! do not exceed in your religion, nor say against God aught save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, is but the apostle of God and His Word, which He cast into Mary, and a spirit from Him; believe then in God and His apostles, and say not "Three." Have done! it were better for you. God is only one God,


you have seen ,the Quran condemns them in their terminology (three persons in one God) ,and condemns them and other religions too in other terms (the issue of the worship and intercession)....


why no verse mentions the holy spirit by name as being god?

,cause the Quran concentrate on the act of worship ....
though the holy spirit is part of the so called trinity ,yet no christian ever direct his prayer to the holy spirit , he rather resort to the physical beings(which he has imaginary pictures of them in his mind) so he pray, ask Jesus etc... to support him by such holy spirit....

not to pray for the holy spirit to support him with Jesus...

peace
where can i find all these translations online??
Reply

doorster
06-01-2009, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by love_quran
where can i find all these translations online??
>> Quran << or >> Quran <<

http://quran.pak.net/ob_c.php
Reply

Imam
06-03-2009, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
many Baptists and other fundamentalists Christians, using their own definitions of what constitutes worship, see the actions of those who make the pilgrimage to Mecca as evidence of worship to a moon god, even though such thoughts are not in the minds of any of those who participate in the Hajj.

That is another issue,and no reason to make analogy here


you confuse the argument of (supposed origin of a religion) with (the accord of the ritual of a religion with monotheism)

Muslims don't have at their homes some statues of moon god who pray to,asking them for help or intercession to Yhwh ,giving you the chance to call them ,not true monotheist and not worshiping the true Yhwh.......



Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
for Imam makes a valid point that for many Muslims the degree of devotion that many Catholics show for Mary may not be intended as worship from a Catholic's perspective, but is nevertheless seen as an act of worship by many Muslims, even when fully explained.

.
Why even if fully explained still Muslims, most Protestants ,other sects in Christianity condemn the act ?

Cause it's reasonable to ask if words and actions are consistent..

Calling something by a different name does not change its nature.




Originally Posted by Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

What is observed in the prayers to Mary and the Marian festivals is worship by whatever name the church chooses to call it. . They would claim that they do not worship her (Mary), they just venerate her. This is a distinction without a difference, since they do pray to her and give her a form of worship.
.


Originally Posted by A Sermon By Pastor Deacon Fred

Dear brothers and sisters, it's not too hard to see. These folks are still more pagan than Christian. Only now, their favorite goddess is Mary, the mother of Jesus. They try to be politically correct and say things like, "We don't pray to Mary, we just give her homage or ask her to run off and take our prayers to Jesus when He's too busy to hear them." Well, what the heck's the ding dang difference? Catholics are no better than pagans or Wiccans, praying to stone statues and trees..

- The Bible reserves this sort of language for God alone. To give what is due to God to another is idolatry, it is false worship. The term "Maryolatry" seems an appropriate label for the Catholic practices...


Originally Posted by The Roman Catholic Observer

There, my dear Catholic friends, are the unquestionable facts. Will you continue to pray to Mary when that practice contradicts God's own Word? If so, why? Are you aware of how serious a matter it is to perform such worship as God condemns? Will you risk your immortal soul just to satisfy the whims of Rome?

Do Catholics Worship Mary?
Having, for all practical purposes, removed God's Second Commandment, Rome found herself in the position of having to cover her tracks. After all, a church that worships Mary, numerous dead people (called 'saints') and a wafer of bread, must redirect attention and strive to justify her idolatry.
To be sure, Rome categorically denies that Catholics worship Mary. What they do is to dissimulate. . . to assign and re-define other terms for the worship they offer to her. Rome's deceptive claim is that she "worships God, but only venerates Mary and the saints." To get an accurate picture, we need to examine both secular and 'sacred' (i.e., official Catholic) documentation.
To accomplish her deception, Rome invented her own form of 'correctspeak.' She did this by redefining terms that all mean one thing-worship. Rome uses "worship" with respect to God, or Jesus Christ, and "venerate" with respect to Mary and dead people. . . as if "venerate" had a completely different meaning than "worship." Nice try, but it does not wash. Fortunately, however, Rome also uses the term "worship" directly with respect to Mary, thus putting the lie to her dissimulation. .


Originally Posted by Mary Ann Collins (former catholic nun)

If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. I have personally participated in American processions which honored Mary. We walked through the streets following a statue of Mary which was carried on a platform, high up where it was clearly visible. We sang songs in Mary’s honor. We prayed rosaries and other prayers to her. These were small processions. At Fatima, Portugal, crowds of over a million people gather on the anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. The celebration includes a procession of a million people following a statue of Mary and singing her praises One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the Hail Holy Queen, which is known in Latin as the Salve Regina. It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.
For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome your familiarity with this text and really look at the words. Doesn’t this sound like worship?
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” .


Originally Posted by John MacArthur

In Catholicism it is the false goddess named Mary through whom all graces, all blessings, all divine works pass to people. No one can be saved, no one can be blessed unless Mary intercedes. She is presented as all-knowing, all-wise, all-merciful, everywhere present and all-powerful, attributes which belong only to God.
For two weeks now, we have considered what the Catholic Church says about Mary, this goddess that they worship. We have looked in particular at the historical record of the worship of Mary accumulated by St. Alphonsus Delaguarie who wrote The Glories of Mary in the year 1745 which has been since translated into English and printed again and again and again with the full affirmation and imprimatur of the official Roman Catholic Church. In this book there is the sum of all the glories of Mary which has been vouchsafe to the Roman Catholic Church and the Church itself calls upon all its constituents to give Mary that honor she is due. She is identified as Mary, our Queen; Mary, our mother; Mary, our life; Mary, our sweetness; Mary, our hope; Mary, our help; Mary, our mediatress; Mary, our advocate; Mary, our guardian; and Mary, our salvation. It is said that Mary delivers us from hell, Mary delivers us from purgatory, and Mary leads us to heaven.
Despite denials by Roman Catholic apologists, Mary is worshiped. In fact, Mary is the main god in Roman Catholicism which is nothing more than the worship of a non-existent goddess who usurps the glory and the worship that is due only to God
we considered the history of Roman Catholic devotion to Mary. From the Church’s own statements through all the centuries of its existence we looked at the attributes of Mary, we looked at elements that belong only to God that belong to her. .


Originally Posted by jesus is Lord
Blasphemy 102: Mary Worship Angers God
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN...that they may provoke me to anger.
Jeremiah 7:18

Did you know that the catholic religion calls Mary the QUEEN OF HEAVEN? For more on the wicked QUEEN OF HEAVEN and what God thinks of this false god, read Jeremiah 44 where the Israelites were PUNISHED for worshipping her.
Let's continue our look into darkness--the worship of Mary as the queen of heaven and CO-REDEEMER with JESUS CHRIST [Lord have mercy, Jesus]. First of all, the Mary of the Catholic religion is NOT the Mary of the Bible. They have simply taken her name and superimposed it on top of a pre-existing goddess. The above passage from Jeremiah was written hundreds of years BEFORE Mary was born--the queen of heaven was already being worshipped and the people were making God mad. This is the Bible talking, we're not looking at history books, we are looking at God's holy word. Blessed be the Lord Who hath preserved His word so that we don't have to be deceived.
I've heard Catholics say things like, "I don't really pray to Mary, I just talk to her. She helps me and she can talk to Jesus for me." What is praying but talking to the Lord? Where do you read in the Bible that you are supposed to ask Mary for anything? You can't find that command anywhere in the Bible because we are supposed to ask Jesus Christ Himself.

But the new catechism has changed things." No it hasn't. The Catholic religion is the same heretical cult, leading its followers straight to hell.

-------------------------------


I have quoted such christian quotes ( I still have hundreds from the same kind) cause I felt that the christians in the thread(Greenvile is the exception) would try to give the impression that only Muslims who condemn the act.

Holy Quran 10:18 They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 01:12 PM
Originally Posted by A Sermon By Pastor Deacon Fred

Dear brothers and sisters, it's not too hard to see. These folks are still more pagan than Christian. Only now, their favorite goddess is Mary, the mother of Jesus. They try to be politically correct and say things like, "We don't pray to Mary, we just give her homage or ask her to run off and take our prayers to Jesus when He's too busy to hear them." Well, what the heck's the ding dang difference? Catholics are no better than pagans or Wiccans, praying to stone statues and trees..
Mr Fred isn't a real pastor.
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Imam
06-03-2009, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Mr Fred isn't a real pastor.
may be Agnostic or atheist?

whatever he may ever be ,his statement and the (other non-catholic christian ) quotes I posted ,proved the point,
Muslims are not alone in condemning the catholic act.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
may be Agnostic or atheist?

whatever he may ever be ,his statement and the (other non-catholic christian ) quotes I posted ,proved the point,
Muslims are not alone in condemning the catholic act.
He parodies pastors.
Of course not, but Muslimsare the only ones that claim Mary has a god status in catholicism.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
well, genius, just how many Protestants do you think there were in 600 CE?
:omg:
the verse take place during the judgement day.
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Imam
06-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Muslims are the only ones that claim Mary has a god status in catholicism.
clues plz
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
clues plz
Non-Catholic christians may disagree with the Catholic veneration of Mary, but they have never claimed Catholic believed Mary a part of the trinity or anything remotely similar.
Quran says Jesus will tell the Christians he never said Mary and him were a part of the trinity, eventhough nobody believes that. I'd udnerstand him saying he never told anyone to revere Mary or say praxers for her. Something that Christians can actually understand and reflect upon.
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Imam
06-03-2009, 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Non-Catholic christians may disagree with the Catholic veneration of Mary, but they have never claimed Catholic believed Mary a part of the trinity or anything remotely similar.
neither the Quran nor the christian quotes ever mention that Mary a part of the trinity ,It is you and some other christians impose such concept on the Quran.

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Quran says Jesus will tell the Christians he never said Mary and him were a part of the trinity.
you still insist on that !

well, this time I have a simple copy and paste task



‏5:116 واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto people, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'

copy the word من دون

and paste it on the left blank side here

http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English

and click translate....


If after getting the meaning you insist on your opinion...

then I can't help but to say (I tell him the truth and he thinks it is hell !):sunny:
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GreyKode
06-03-2009, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Non-Catholic christians may disagree with the Catholic veneration of Mary, but they have never claimed Catholic believed Mary a part of the trinity or anything remotely similar.
Quran says Jesus will tell the Christians he never said Mary and him were a part of the trinity, eventhough nobody believes that. I'd udnerstand him saying he never told anyone to revere Mary or say praxers for her. Something that Christians can actually understand and reflect upon.
You are being both stubborn and ridiculous.
I believe Imam has showed enough evidence(from christians) to prove his point that catholics venerate Mary to a Godly status, regardless of being in a trinity or not, and the Qur'an doesn't mention Mary being in a trinity since the trinity states that the 3 persons are all one in the same and the Qur'an doesn't even barely mention that so quit arguing with that point.

Now I wonder, even the christians of today can't grasp the concept of trinity, isn't possible that there could have been misunderstandings back in the old times about the concept.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
neither the Quran nor the christian quotes ever mention that Mary a part of the trinity ,It is you and some other christians impose such concept on the Quran.



you still insist on that !

well, this time I have a simple copy and paste task



‏5:116 واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto people, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'

copy the word من دون

and paste it on the left blank side here

http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English

and click translate....


If after getting the meaning you insist on your opinion...

then I can't help but to say (I tell him the truth and he thinks it is hell !):sunny:
I'm sorry, it's been a long time since I've last been in this thread, I remember now.
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Whatsthepoint
06-03-2009, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
You are being both stubborn and ridiculous.
I believe Imam has showed enough evidence(from christians) to prove his point that catholics venerate Mary to a Godly status, regardless of being in a trinity or not, and the Qur'an doesn't mention Mary being in a trinity since the trinity states that the 3 persons are all one in the same and the Qur'an doesn't even barely mention that so quit arguing with that point.

Now I wonder, even the christians of today can't grasp the concept of trinity, isn't possible that there could have been misunderstandings back in the old times about the concept.
The point is that they do not think Mary is god, is it more important what they do or what thy think? Jesus's words described in the verse would be meaningless to them, just as if someone asked you whether you think Muhammad is a god.
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Imam
06-03-2009, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
is it more important what they do or what thy think? .
It is important that what they think to be consistent with what they do.

If such inconsistency to be tolerated with the Catholics, then every pagan religious system would be valid and consistent with true monotheism...


under your line of reasoning, none gonna blame me if I buy a cute golden statue tomorrow , involving such statue in my prayer day and night..... and forgettting about Allah gradually !!!
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Grace Seeker
06-04-2009, 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by Imam
Cause it's reasonable to ask if words and actions are consistent..

Calling something by a different name does not change its nature.
Agreed. But whether you like the comparison or not, and I certainly disagree with their conclusions, but if for the very reason that you here cite with regard to substantiating your view that Catholics venerate Mary to the point of treating her as if she were a god, even if they don't say it in so many words that some of these other more fundamentalist Christian groups make the same accusation with regard to Islam and the rituals that take place with regard to the Kaba. They see this as acts of worship directed at something other than God.
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malayloveislam
06-04-2009, 05:04 AM
LOL, Kaaba is a part of the Sacred Mosque structure and it is actually a marker of direction to pray, not an idol although pagan Arabs had once put 360 idols there during the Dark Age after Ishmael had gone.

WHY MUSLIM WORSHIP KAABA? FIRST PART

My warm greeting to muslim brothers... As I had encountered before, many of my Christian friends asking me why Muslims worshiping Kaaba? Why there are people surrounding the Kaaba? and etc. So, with the permission of G-d. I will explain to the viewers of this blog especially to non-Muslim friends who are curious about Kaaba... Hopefully that it would be helping you concerning the questions about Kaaba, with the permission of G-d.

As we already know, Kaaba is the quibla or the direction where Muslims are facing their face when they are performing daily prayers. Important to be stated here that when they direct their faces to Kaaba, they are not actually praying to the Kaaba. Muslim only bowing and prostrate to G-d.

Surah al-Baqarah

144. We see the turning of Thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to Quibla that shall please thee. Turn thy face in the direction of Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in the direction. The people of the Book (Christian and Jews) know well that it is the Truth from their Lord. Nor is G-d unmindful of what they do.

(Translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)
Surah Al-Baqarah 2:144 ada menyebut :

1) Islam teaches Unity.

As an example: if Muslims who want to pray, some of them might be facing to the North direction, or some maybe facing South. To unite all Muslims regarding the acts of worship to G-d the One and wherever we are, Muslims are obliged to face the direction of Kaaba and Centralized only there. If a Muslim live in West of Kaaba direction, they will be facing Eest whenever they want to perform prayers. The same thing too happened if the Muslims living East of Kaaba, they will be facing West to the direction of Kaaba. Everywhere we are, in Japan, Russia, Germany, and etc, we only turn our face to the direction of Kaaba when we performing prayers and reciting supplications.

2) Kaaba is geographically located in the middle of World Map

Muslims first world map cartographer had sketched the world map with the Southern direction pointed up while North pointed down. Kaaba is in the middle. Later, Western cartographer sketched the directions in opposite direction, but Kaaba is still in the middle.

http://renung2fikir2.blogspot.com/20...ah-kaabah.html

The act of surrounding Kaaba, which is walking 7 rounds is does not mean Muslim praying to the cubical building. It is a symbolic act of worship to G-d in the ritual of pilgrimage Hajj and Omrah. Even if the cubical black building is not there we will still walking around (Thawaf) that marked area and turning our faces to the direction of Kaaba. It is our first direction of prayer since the time of Abraham, but after the time of Moses G-d changed it to Jerusalem as the prophets were raised among the Children of Jacob (Israel). Later in the time of prophet Muhammad, G-d ordered Muslim to turn back to the direction to Kaaba in the Sacred Mosque when performing prayers and supplication.
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malayloveislam
06-04-2009, 05:13 AM
I do see some Christians revering mother Mary and other Saints for their intercession. There are plenty of Tarannim seeking mother Mary intercession. But I don't think that it is in all Christian sects. Maybe certain sects, correct me if I'm wrong. Mother of god sounds Orthodox to me, but I don't know if it is also revered in Catholicism. So many anathemize series happened in Early Church times because of this definition of theotokos and christotokos, quite complicated. Well, I'm comfortable with Islamic view about Mary as the mother of Jesus the prophet and she is an Israeli.
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Imam
06-04-2009, 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
some of these other more fundamentalist Christian groups make the same accusation with regard to Islam and the rituals that take place with regard to the Kaba. They see this as acts of worship directed at something other than God.
But don't you think they have to provide some words of Muslims prayers at KAba,or some acts affirms that their worship directed at something other than God?

If you accuse someone you should have more than guesswork , we have against the Catholics proofs from their prayers .


what is there in Muslims rituals at the Kaba suggest that they are not true monotheists?
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Follower
06-04-2009, 12:45 PM
The following verse simply states that someone believes that Jesus said to worship Mary-which I have pointed out on another thread, may come from the false gospel written at a later date then the true Gospel.

005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

The word Trinity is never mentioned in the Quran, just the word 3. Is it 3 gods? Then that is false for there was never a worship of 3 gods in Christianity.

004.171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .

Imam - I understand that you are not, but what makes it appear as such: kissing the black stone, the bowing, the circumabulating with just the direction changed from pagan times at a temple that was used to house pagan gods, throwing away the sins at the posts or stoning satan, etc.

The actions of the Muslim on pilgramage speaks louder then their words- just as the actions of the Catholic are speaking louder then their words.

As a protestant I view Mary as a very good example of a GOD fearing and obeying women. She was the mother to Jesus, the human form housing GOD's incarnate WORD.
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malayloveislam
06-04-2009, 01:01 PM
The black stone is not to be kissed like kissing G-d or kissing the gods (demons) that dwell in the stone or respecting the god in the stone. It is not G-d or idol at all, just a marker of circumambulation unit ends. It has no power to change human destiny and etc. Kissing Hajarul Aswad is categorized under Sunnah or prophet tradition. See what our master, Caliph Umar al-Khattab said about the stone:

"No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."

Kissing it makes us feel like we kiss the cheek of our prophet because he had kissed the stone during he performed Hajj and Omra ritual there. Also makes us feeling close to our father, Abraham.

There is historical events in Islam concerning the stone. We always refer back to our articles of faith as what had been concluded in short surahs of Quran which are included under six pillars of creed when we performing the acts of worship and living up our daily life.

further information about the black stone, you can just wiki it or trying to find Islamic blogs in various languages, you may choose any language you understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

The mosque prior to pagan Arab times is the house of G-d build by Abraham and Ishmael. Only later the Arabs who were influenced by idolater Phonecians in the North had defiled the sanctity of the pure house by placing idols there. I had already provided the source of history in Ishmael thread about Kaaba and Holy City Mecca, and also the story about Abraham and Ishmael in Islam.
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Imam
06-04-2009, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
The following verse simply states that someone believes that Jesus said to worship Mary.
The verse states the opposite ,that someone(God) knows that Jesus never said to worship Mary,yet Catholics ?(the answer in the previous posts).

Originally Posted by Follower

The word Trinity is never mentioned in the Quran, just the word 3.
yes it doesn't say Christians SAY we believe in three Gods ,and that is one of the accurate uses of the language in the Quran...

The verse tells :

Don't say three ?

God the father
and
God the son
and
God the holy spirit

why?

because there is only one indivisible God.


Christians never say we believe in three gods but Trinity says it.


Originally Posted by Follower
what makes it appear as such: kissing the black stone, the bowing, the circumnavigating with just the direction changed from pagan times at a temple that was used to house pagan gods, throwing away the sins at the posts or stoning satan, etc..

1-the kissing of the black stone:

is neither an act of prayer nor act of intercession,while the catholic issue with Mary involved with both.

2- the bowing:

If bowing to idol asking it for help or intercession,there we go the discussion.

3- the circumnavigating with just the direction changed from pagan times at a temple that was used to house pagan gods:

If you could negate the traditions (is supported by proofs) that this location was originally established for monotheistic rituals,there we go the discussion.

Holy Quran 2:125 Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
Islam came to refresh the worship in such sacred place ,and put an end to the pagan corruption of such monotheistic place .
Reply

Forced_In
06-04-2009, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The point is that they do not think Mary is god, is it more important what they do or what thy think? Jesus's words described in the verse would be meaningless to them, just as if someone asked you whether you think Muhammad is a god.
Greetings,

If I remember correctly pagans in the time of Muhammad (Peace Be Upon
Him) considered themselves monotheists. Just they asked for intercession of
idols.

Fact is, they were amongst "Mushriks", meaning those who believe there are
gods other than God. So should we ask various groups whether they are
monotheist or we can have some clear rules to define monotheism ?

Peace.
Reply

malayloveislam
06-05-2009, 07:24 AM
Salam and Peace,

A very good question raised brother Forced_In, well at least our Christian friends can see how we view monotheism teaching through our scripture :statisfie:

Tauhid

The definition of Tauhid at least in Islam

Idiomatically, Tauhid means "you believe that something is only one," which also means "a unity." As per Islamic term or according to "Syariah Way of Life," it means "We sorship solely Allah (Holy G-d) or solely One G-d, in the matters that He Himself had imposed through His prophets and messengers in the aspect of Rububiyya, Uluhiyya, and Asma' was-Sifah.

For English speaker, the root word of Tauhid is Ahad, it means One! You may check Surah al-Ikhlas, it deals with Tauhid, Monotheism.

The position of Tauhid in Islamic Way of Life

G-d says in Quran:

And make not another an object of worship with G-d: I am from Him a warner to you, clear, and open. (Surah az-Zariyya, 51 verse 51, meaning by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

and further in the verse 56th of Surah az-Zariyya G-d says:

I have only created Genies and Men, that they may worship (serve) Me.

Also in other verses:

O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, Who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness.

(the meaning of Surah al-Baqarah, 2nd verse 21 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali).

For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet (and messenger with the Command), "worship (serve) G-d and eschew Thaghuth (Evil)!": of the people were some G-d guided, and some whom error became inevitably (established). So, travel the earth, and see what is the end of those who denied (the Truth).

(the meaning of Surah an-Nahl, Surah 16th, verse 36 translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

Tauhid as the Biggest Obligation in Islam

1. Tauhid is the first thing ordered by Holy G-d to His messengers to be implemented in their people.

2. Tauhid is the first terminal and the first step for those who desires to walk in the path of Holy G-d.

3. When Tauhid completely exist in oneself, it will prevent the person from being cast into Hell.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is reported as saying in Hadith narration:

If ones bear witness that there is no true gods except Holy G-d and Muhammad is His slave (servant), and His messenger by heart, G-d will prevent Hell-Fire from touching them. (Narration of Bukhari)
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malayloveislam
06-05-2009, 09:47 AM
The meaning of the word Tauhid

Tauhid brought the meaning of knowing, proclaiming, confessing, witnessing and believing that there is no other gods worth to be worshiped except Allah (the Holy G-d) alone. Other than Him have no right to be worshiped (served) and they are not the true G-d.

The word Tauhid covers the proclamation by heart, oral proclamation, and verbal acts as the proof to Holy G-d that there is no gods but solely Holy G-d.

1. What is Tauhid Rububiyya?

It means that we believe Allah (the Holy G-d) is with One characteristic, means He is solely One when He Creates and Preserving, and He is the only Lord of the Universe.

The deeper meaning of Tauhid ar-Rububiyya

The word ar-Rububiyya is from the root word Rabb whic means:

1. as-Sayyid (the Lord)
2. al-Maalik (the Possessor/the King)
3. the Creator
4. The Administrator
5. The Educator
6. The Guardian
7. The One Who Takes Care
8. The Supreme Chief

Holy G-d's characteristics is Absolute. It won't change and will never change forever.

As for human, if they possess something or powerful, those characteristics will not last long as they are temporary. Everything in the Universe is G-d's possession. What we have as His creatures solely borrowed to us and Majazi (metaphorical). Only G-d as the Lord of Universe is with whole Perfect characteristics. Every creature is dependent to Him, praying for intercession from Him, and placing all of hopes to Him due to His Perfect characteristics.

Human, if they are clever, intelligent, and smart, those things are from Holy G-d. The luxury and the possession of humans over something is not absolute as they are all from G-d.

Humans are created as creatures. Humans have nothing, except that every act, breath, and the force that had been granted by G-d to them.

G-d is all Powerful, in creating, in the matters of life and death. He is the One Who has the authority in benefiting and harming. If He desires benefits and goodness over someone, nobody can prevent Him from His Will. If G-d's Will over someone that he will be affected by evil or danger, nobody can prevent or stop Him too.

Allah is the only One who is mutafarriq. Mutafarriq means the One with the authority to bring benefits (goodness) and dangers (evil).

G-d says in Quran:

"If G-d touch thee with affliction, none can remove it but He; if He touch thee with happiness, He hath the Power over all things.

(translation of Surah al-An'am, 6th, verse 17)

Those characteristics of G-d too are among the source of Tauhid. Fear only Allah, and acting with courage due to the confidence and trust in Holy G-d.

I can see that the word Fear G-d, had been used by certain Christian scholars to emphasize that Islam is the religion of Fear G-d, while Christianity emphasizes Love. We Muslim do Love G-d, we also Fear G-d. We love Him as the Preserver who grant us blessings that we can live peacefully and others. We fear G-d because we fear the burdens in the Hereafter and punishment from Him if we commit sins (lying, killing, associating Him with Evil or Thaghut, and others).

Humans are with Pauper characteristics

Humans in the earth are with the pauper characteristic (possess nothing), and also dependent to the help from G-d.

G-d says in Hadiths Qudsi (Holy Hadiths):

"O human, you are all in the dark except if those whom I grant guidance and success to them. Thus, ask for My guidance!"

"O human, you are all hungry, except those whom I grant foods, thus ask for food (look in the wider context, not only bread) from Me!"

"O human, you are all naked, except those whom I granted with clothes. Thus ask for clothes from Me."

(Holy Hadiths is revealed by Gabriel to Muhammad but it is not apart of Quran, it is different from the Acts of prophet which is also known as Hadiths)

The characteristic of rich and pauper

Necessity toward something is the characteristic of human. Human, animal, plants, and other creatures all needs G-d. So, all of the creatures are with the characteristics of the poor.

G-d is the only Rich. He needs nothing. If human have the confidence like this to G-d, they will not think bad about G-d or blaming G-d if they face trials and tribulations.

"O ye men! It is ye that need of G-d: but G-d is the One Free from all wants, Worthy of all praise.

(Translation of Surah Fathir, 35th, verse 15 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

Pauper is the dzati characteristic of the creations of G-d. Rich is the dzati characteristic of al-Khaaliq (the Creator).

Proofs of Tauhid ar-Rububiyya:

There are many proofs that G-d is One and no others equal to Him in the term of Rububiyya (Lordship). Among them:

1. When we see the words on the black board, there must be somebody who scratched it. The person with healthy thinking will think that everything in this world must have the fabricator.

2. Everything in the Universe, from the detail tiniest size to the biggest witnessing that Holy G-d is the Lord of the Universe. He has the authority over the creations in the Universe.

3. The manner this Universe being arranged is so amazing. Beautiful, and detail that proofs the Perfect characteristic of G-d. If the Universe speaks, they will proclaim themselves as the creation of G-d. The people with healthy mind will say that the Universe is created by the Powerful G-d. Nobody will say that those things naturally happened and exist. Well, we have Atheists, everything exist naturally, it's up to them, they too can think.

All of these proofs the magnificent knowledge of G-d. We may observe the creation of human-being. Their detail anatomy and see on how detail it is the creation of G-d. Well, Europeans had already involved in artistic Arts during the Enlightment period, I'm sure European and Western people are quite good in Humanistic arts that made some of them became Atheists. We have Atheists too in majority Muslim countries like Indonesia and also Malaysia. Also in Thailand, majority Buddhists don't believe G-d but they still practicing a religion.

There are also various creations of G-d with different characteristics and appearances between one another. All of them clearly shows that G-d is the Wisest. There are branches of sciences like physics, chemistry, biology, and etc with various uncountable sub-branches of sciences and philosophy, we Muslim used them to search G-d, but Atheist claimed those sciences proved that G-d is not exist, that is our difference :D

The nature of proclaiming the Lordship of G-d

The proclamation and confession the Lordship of G-d is acceptable. The fact is reflected in the nature of human-being. Non-believers with too proclaiming the Lordship of G-d.

"If thou ask them, who created them? They will certainly say: G-d: How then they are deluded away (from Truth)?

(The meaning of Surah Zukhruf, 43rd, verse 87 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

"If thou wert to question them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" They would be surely reply. "They were created by (Him), the Exalted in Power, Full of Knowledge' -

(The meaning of Surah Zukhruf, verse 9 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

It's actually not so complicated to prove the Lordship of G-d. The nature of every human is the proof of Him. The polytheists and the ungrateful human too realize about the Lordship of G-d the Creator.

al-Quran affirmed the existance of G-d's Lordship in humans' soul.

al-Quran reminds us about the nature or the soul of humans had already filled with the feeling to proclaim the Lordship of G-d, the Lord of the Universe.

G-d says:

"Their messengers said: "Is there a doubt about G-d, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? It is He Who invites you, in order that He may forgive you your sins and give you respite for a term appointed!" They said: "Ah! Ye are no more than human, like ourselves! Ye wish to turn us away from (the gods) our fathers used to worship: then bring us some clear authority!"

(the meaning of Surah Ibrahim, chapter 14th, verse 10 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

"And they rejected those Signs in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls were convinced thereof: so see what was the end of those who acted corruptly."

(the meaning of Surah an-Naml chap 27:14 by AYA)

The refusal and the objections of some humans to proclaim the existance of G-d as the Creator is actually determined by their arrogance, stubborn, and closing their own heart. As the matter of fact, the soul of human or the nature of human can't be empty from the deep feeling in proclaiming the existance of G-d the Creator.

If the nature and the soul of humans is clean from arrogance, stubbornness, and the scums that came from their evil thinking, spontaneously they will straight directing themselves toward G-d without difficulties to make any choice. Spontaneously their tongue will articulate G-d and asking helps from Him.

It is human behavior that when they are in dangerous situation that nothing will be crossing his mind except G-d. At that time, his thinking and senses will only be directed to G-d. Well, we can see when Lenin almost fall, he had asked the churches to strike their bells, and the mosque to loudly calling for prayers. Isn't he a non-believer of G-d Lordship? His daughter too converted to Russian Orthodox Christianity and migrating the US when her father lost in the war. Where is their Atheism?

So, this confirmed what G-d says in Quran:

"When a wave covers them like the canopy (of clouds), they call to G-d, offering Him sincere devotion. But when He has delivered them safely to land, there are amongst them who halt between (right and wrong). But none reject Our signs except only a perfidious ungrateful (wretch)!"

(the meaning of Surah Luqman 31:32 by AYA)

Indeed the problems about the existance of G-d is not really complicated. It is obvious, clear, simple, and easy. There are many proofs and events that had happened through out human's history.


http://members.tripod.com/~hasan98/tauhid.htm
Reply

malayloveislam
06-05-2009, 01:48 PM
Tauhid al-Uluhiyya

It means that we practice Monotheism in our worship acts. G-d had sent prophets and messengers in order to call humans in accepting the worship of G-d the One. we can see what G-d says in Quran:

1. Not a messenger did We send before thee without this revelation sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.

(the meaning of Surah al-Anbiyaa' 21:25)

2. For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).

(the meaning of Surah an-Nahl 16:36)

3. (Further, We sent a long line of prophets for your instruction). We sent Noah to his people: He said, "O my people! worship Allah! Ye have no other god but Him. Will ye not fear (Him)?"

(the meaning of Surah al-Mu'minoon 23:23)

4. To the 'Ad people, (We sent) Hud, one of their (own) brethren: He said: O my people! worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him will ye not fear (Allah)?"

(the meaning of Surah al-A'araf 7:65)

The Sparks of the Love toward G-d

Worship or the acts of worship to Holy G-d can only be executed by oneself when they have pure Love to Him and voluntarily or sincerely prostrating themselves only to Him. A slave or a servant will only be counted as worshiping Him he submitting his entire soul to Holy G-d, have confidence on Him, stead fast with the teachings of Holy G-d, accepting His Will, asking (hope) and returning (submitting) everything only to Him, trying to be close to Him through remembering Him, executing the way of life according to what He had taught through scripture, and preserving every acts (morality, words, and etc) according to the way that He pleased with.

‘ubudiyya that keeps increasing

"Ubudiyya means submittance and we enslave ourselves only to Holy G-d. It will gives great impacts in human life if we deeply understand the facts that human is not perfect and weak in the view of G-d. Human always depending and hoping to G-d. His Power and Control cover us in every seconds.

Humans' relation of love with G-d will be even more strong when human understand and know well about the characteristics of G-d which are the glorious names of G-d (praised characteristics), His Perfection, and the greatness of His blessings.

Submitting (enslaving) oneself to G-d will free him from being the slave of others (idols, evil desires, colonization, human lordship (dominion theory), man made ideologies and etc). Human will be a sincere slave and sincerely worship (submitting) himself to G-d. Human will achieve highest stage in the view of G-d when they sincerely submitting themselves only to G-d.

G-d portrayed in Quran about the circumstances of honorable prophets of Him with the slave characteristics. Being the slave of G-d is not like being the slave of human, like we see in the US during her early times where African slaves were forced to work for White masters. G-d never ask us to serve Him like the African slaves have to serve their White masters. He gave us choices, that is why Islam prevent us from forcing others to believe. Because He has Mercy not only to Muslim but also to non-believers. It is easy to understand Islamic Creed, and it is just a simple teaching. It is human who made the teaching looks like complicated.

In Quran, G-d shows us about prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as His slave, in one night when His revelation comes to him, when the prophet calls for Islam and when he experienced the Isra' and Mi'raj.

G-d says:

1. So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey. (the meaning of Surah an-Najmu 53:10)

2. "Yet when the Devotee of Allah stands forth to invoke Him, they just make round him a dense crowd." (the meaning of Surah al-Jinn 72:19)

3. Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things). (the meaning of Surah al-Isra' 17:1)

Tauhid ar-Rububiyya is related to Tauhid al-Uluhiyya

As what had been stated above, Tauhid ar-Rububiyya means proclaiming the belief that G-d is the Lord, the Master, the Controller, the Creator, and the Absolute Grantor. There is no association for Him in His Lordship.

When a person accepting the Lordship of G-d, they will also accepting the entire meanings that relate or made human proclaiming their faith on Tauhid Uluhiyya which is the worship of solely Him. Spontaneously human will only worship Him, and none others should be worship in any form.

Glorious Quran had earlier reminded the pagan Quraisy Arabs in Mecca to first accepting the Tauhid Rububiyya (His absolute Lordship). When they accept that with their whole heart only the bridge that connects them to Tauhid Uluhiyya (worship only Him) will be established. This clear fact should not being hidden and should not been taken easily.

G-d says:

1. Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created? (the meaning of Surah Al-A’raf 7:191)

2. "Is then He Who creates like one that creates not? Will ye not receive admonition?” (the meaning of Surah An-Nahl 16:17)

3. O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition! (the meaning of Surah Al-Hajj 22:73)

The verses had reminded those polytheists about the clear fact that their objects of worships are weak, are not capable to create anything even a fly. Those objects of where the worships being directed too have no force to get back the things if the fly is taking or snatching something from the objects of worship. This shows on how weak they are. Those people who worship the idols (spirits, stones, image of gods, saints, jungles, evil desires, etc) are weak and the idols worshiped too are weak, both of them are weak :).

As to say, a person with his mind clear can not accept the worship to others than Holy G-d. They can not associate Him with others or using any medium to communicate with Him in prayers. The Holy G-d is the Creator and the only One G-d. Other than Him are weak and have no force.

Those fake gods have nothing like G-d

Glorious Quran argued and reminded the pagans that those things worshiped other than G-d had no power even the power which is as light as an atom whether they are in the earth or in the heavens. And those who worship them too has no power even as light as atom whether they are in the earth or in the heavens. Holy G-d has no necessity with those fake gods and also the worshiper of their worshiper. If they realize this fact, they will feel the obligation to sincerely worship only G-d.

G-d says:

Say: "Call upon other (gods) whom ye fancy, besides Allah: They have no power,- not the weight of an atom,- in the heavens or on earth: No (sort of) share have they therein, nor is any of them a helper to Allah.

(the meaning of SurahSaba’ 34: 22)

Glorious Quran do mentioned that the polytheists or pagans recognize some part of G-d Lordship such as He is the Possessor of the heavens and earth and He is the Controller of what happened in the heavens and earth. If that so, they should be faithful to G-d and worshiping Him without association.

G-d says:

84. Say: "To whom belong the earth and all beings therein? (say) if ye know!"

85. They will say, "To Allah!" say: "Yet will ye not receive admonition?"

86. Say: "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens, and the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme?"

87. They will say, "(They belong) to Allah." Say: "Will ye not then be filled with awe?"

88. Say: "Who is it in whose hands is the governance of all things,- who protects (all), but is not protected (of any)? (say) if ye know."

89. They will say, "(It belongs) to Allah." Say: "Then how are ye deluded?"

90. We have sent them the Truth: but they indeed practise falsehood!

(the meaning of Surah al-Mu’minun: 84-90)

http://members.tripod.com/~hasan98/tauhid.htm
Reply

Follower
06-05-2009, 01:56 PM
4:171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .

I understand Allah throwing the Word away - even humans are able to generate ever increasing words.

In Islam when Allah threw his soul away as in verse 4:171 - does that diminish Allah's soul?
Reply

GreyKode
06-05-2009, 02:18 PM
[QUOTE=Follower;1161867]4:171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .

I understand Allah throwing the Word away - even humans are able to generate ever increasing words.


Follower, again you twist translations, no one listens to your stupidity anymore.

Just for completeness refer to surah(32) verse (8-9), "breathes into man his spirit", this applies to all creation of man, and thus destroying your attempt to prove any special status for jesus(pbuh) from that verse.

In Islam when Allah threw his soul away as in verse 4:171 - does that diminish Allah's soul?
What are you trying to say exactly.....?
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Grace Seeker
06-06-2009, 05:13 AM
Originally Posted by Imam
But don't you think they have to provide some words of Muslims prayers at KAba,or some acts affirms that their worship directed at something other than God?

If you accuse someone you should have more than guesswork , we have against the Catholics proofs from their prayers .


what is there in Muslims rituals at the Kaba suggest that they are not true monotheists?
Remember, I am not one who actually holds such a view. So, you ask me to speculate. I can do so based on what I read and what others tell me, but anything of that nature I share with this board would of course be 2nd and 3rd hand information. And I don't pretend that I can do justice to their position as it is not one that I share with them. Is that what you want to hear?
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Follower
06-06-2009, 02:01 PM
You say that I have twisted translations, I say I merely interprete/understand the verses differently.

As a person that believes 100% that the Holy Bible is the Word of GOD, the 2 of us have completely different backgrounds, had different teachings, perspectives of GOD and relationships with GOD.

I understand that you as a Muslim are not allowed to interprete anything outside the usual teachings of hadith, imam and tasfir, you are not given the freedom of allowing scripture speak to you. As a Christians we are allowed to let the scripture speak to us- sometimes fuller slightly different understandings come through the scripture depending on what is happening in our life.

I can read a Holy Bible story one day and receive an understanding of how or what I need to do in my life. The very next day read the same story and receive a slightly diffenrent perspective of what I need to do.

This is very possibly the reason for all our denominatons- which are all just different celebrations of our Christian faith. We know that GOD loves diversity- look at all the varous animals, sea creatures, bugs and birds, planets and stars, plants, mountains and valleys,etc.

LOL!! sorry that was long winded!!

Anyway back to the different wording - why the different wording? Instead of breathing a soul into a person as the Quran says He did with men, GOD throws it away to Jesus.

32:9
...He blew in Him from His Soul/Spirit ...

Is a new soul created along with the body?

4:171
...His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him...

Not just blown into, but thrown away to.
Reply

Imam
06-07-2009, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by Follower
Instead of breathing a soul into a person as the Quran says He did with men, GOD throws it away to Jesus.

32:9
...He blew in Him from His Soul/Spirit ...

Is a new soul created along with the body?

4:171
...His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him...

Not just blown into, but thrown away to.
whether breathed or thrown away to,we arrive to the same conclusion..

The spirit (which been blown,thrown away) is a spirit from God not the spirit of God.

If the the spirit of God is what had been thrown to Jesus,then we had the infinite inside the finite and the father Jesus been talking to, was a void.
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Grace Seeker
06-07-2009, 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
the infinite inside the finite
I know you probably didn't intend to be so prophetic, but I actually think that is one of the better definitions of the incarnation that I have ever read. Do you mind if I use it?
Reply

Imam
06-07-2009, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I actually think that is one of the better definitions of the incarnation that I have ever read. Do you mind if I use it?
???!
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-08-2009, 02:03 AM
What's your question? I was entirely serious. When we Christians speak of the incarnation, we are talking precisely about what you defined here: "the infinite inside the finite."

Jesus is the incarnation of the infinite God of the universe in the finite body of a human being. We're not ascribing partners to God at all. We are saying something much more than that. (And I expect even more troubling to Muslims; it certainly is to Jews.) We are saying that God has come in the flesh and walked among us. Of course we don't think that there is a void left in heaven simply because God is incarnated on earth. We understand that God being infinite is not limited to just being in the human body of Jesus, but can be everywhere and especially here both at the very same time and that there is no inherent contradiction in that statement. But your statement is just a an excellent way of saying what Paul said about Jesus -- that all the fullness of God was present and dwelling bodily in the person of Jesus.
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Follower
06-09-2009, 12:41 PM
LOL!! Imam - You have taken everything in exactly the opposite way I have tried to explain. I was saying the same thing but in an opposite way. Why would the Quran say such a verse if somene at sometime didn't believe that Jesus had said something about worshipping Mary?

Someone must have believed that Jesus said that or why bring the topic up in the Quran? Muslims and Christians both know that Jesus never did say that. It was in a false gospel written after the Gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

I know the Quran says do not say three- Christians don't say that GOD is 3 gods. You still do not understand the Trinity, it does not say to believe in 3 gods. It does not say that GOD is divisible. GOD is indivisible!! The essence/substance of GOD is one, indivisible, yet in three in subsistence.

Essence = what a thing is, substance
Subsistence = the form of existence

The infinite inside the finite.
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Follower
06-09-2009, 12:54 PM
Graceseeker- 'I expect even more troubling to Muslims'

I think possibly so. My understanding is that to a Muslim, GOD is unknowable.

It is through Jesus that we can know GOD.
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Imam
06-09-2009, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
What's your question? I was entirely serious.
In my post I used the definition as illogical conclusion,not to endorse it .

my question was just wondering how would you ask me for permission to use such illogical definition in discussion....

I used to get your illogical arguments eg;The Bible though errant still to be trusted 100%, some prophecies have double fulfillment etc....

so I would feel no wonder if you add another illogical concept (the infinite once was finite and infinite at the same time) ....


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
We're not ascribing partners to God at all. We are saying something much more than that. (And I expect even more troubling to Muslims; it certainly is to Jews.)

again you try to give the impression that only Jews and Muslims reject the concept of incarnation,ignoring the other systems of religions and atheists that reject the idea as well....


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
there is no inherent contradiction in that statement
Are you sure?


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
God being infinite is not limited to just being in the human body of Jesus
VS

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
ALL the fullness of God was present and dwelling bodily in the person of Jesus
Reply

Imam
06-09-2009, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by Follower

I know the Quran says do not say three- Christians don't say that GOD is 3 gods.
There we go again....
we have here another christian who would teach us that 3 persons each of whom is called God is not 3 gods

Originally Posted by Follower
You still do not understand the Trinity.

That is true ,the fact that neither you nor anyone else would understand it..
it is a mystery but been solved by the Quran !!
as the best way to solve this trinity mystery is not to understand what trinity is, but to understand what trinity isn't.

The Quran(and common sense too) tells what trinity isn't,but you and those alike prefer to live in such mystery...


Originally Posted by Follower
Muslims and Christians both know that Jesus never did say that.
And God knows that too ,
(He will say: "Glory is to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely, have known it. You know what is in my inner-self ) Holy Quran 5:116

Originally Posted by Follower
It was in a false gospel written after the Gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John..
in other words does the verse 5:116 is referring to a cult?

No, it doesn't.

why?

1- There is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in Muhammad's time (the 6th and 7th centuries AD).

2- The Christians in Mecca and it neighbors that time were either Ebionites,Nestorians(was the common christian sect in this area before Islam), those who belong to the Ethiopian church, the Jacobite ....etc....


let's read the sources:


الأب: ألبير أبونا: تاريخ الكنيسة السريانية الشرقية. ج 2 ص 67 ].
والمسيحيين في مكة ينتمون أصول عديدة: احباش واقباط وتجار من نجران ورعايا من الحيرة و الغساسنة وانباط من سوريا, مع بعض الرهبان ومرسَلين, بالأضافة الى نفر من علية القوم الذين اعتنقوا المسيحية..


The Christians in Mecca belonged to varied origins ,Ethiopians,copts,traders from Najran yemen,from Hira ,Ghassanids,syrians.(History of the Eastern Syriac church chapter 2,p.67,by christian Father Alpeir)




وتوغلت الهرطقة النسطورية إلى كل مكان في المشرق، فتعاظم نفوذهم في منطقة ما بين النهرين، ولم تمضي سوى عدة عقود قليلة، حتى أصبح لهم مركزاً هاماً في مملكة ( الحيرة)، ومنها انطلقوا إلى الأراضي الحجازية نفسها، فاختلطوا بالعرب “الأحناف"، وجذبوا الكثيرين منهم ، وصارت لهم مراكز هامة في الخليج، وخصوصاً " البحرين"، ثم أوجدوا لهم مركزاً خطيراً داخل مكة نفسها.

And the cult of Nestorianism spread everywhere in the East, in Iraq then after few decades they had a center in Hira kingdom,and then to Arabia ,they mixed with Arabs and attracted many,and in the Gulf they had important centers especially Bahrain ,they had a very important center in Mecca itself
(from the book End or beginning ,by Samuel Paulus)



It is absurd to think(for those who claim that he is the composer of the Quran not God) that Mohamed (pbuh) would have understood the trinity concept of extinct christian cult ,letting the other common concept of the trinity of all the Christians were living by him .!!!!!


What a week point,indeed ...
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-10-2009, 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by Imam
In my post I used the definition as illogical conclusion,not to endorse it .
I realized that. And I even made note to that effect. But I want to affirm that though you think it illogical, you did at least accurately state what the incarnation is.

my question was just wondering how would you ask me for permission to use such illogical definition in discussion....
They were your words, you coined the phrase. I believe in giving credit where credit is due.


again you try to give the impression that only Jews and Muslims reject the concept of incarnation,ignoring the other systems of religions and atheists that reject the idea as well....
Sorry if you thought I only conceive of Jews and Muslims as rejecting the incarnation. I know that many others would as well. But these are the two that I perceive as cousin faiths. You are family and even our family would reject these beliefs that we Christians have.



Are you sure?
Yep.

To say that the fullness of God dwells in Jesus says that all that is true of God is true of Jesus. But it is not saying that God is constrained to the limits of Jesus' skin. For instance, when one approaches the king, one might quite rightly feel that one is before one who embodies the full force and weight of the country that the king is sovereign over, but one would never say that the country is limited to simply the person of the king.
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malayloveislam
06-10-2009, 08:08 AM
Only Hindus believe in Incarnation of G-d here. They do believe in G-d the One but He incarnates in everything, even our Kings here is regarded as His Incarnation, the Son of G-d according to our local customs based from Hindu-Buddhism tradition. The same thing you can see is in Thailand.

This is an example of the incarnation of G-d in a King, King Airlangga, the King of Kahuripan Kingdom of East Java, Indonesia. He is depicted as the incarnation of Vishnu.

Reply

Imam
06-10-2009, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
all that is true of God is true of Jesus. .
God is omniscient:

having and being fully aware of all knowledge of all things actual and possible from the infinitesimal to the infinite in every realm at all times. Acts 15:18: All His works are known to God from eternity. Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.1Jo 3:20 God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Jesus Not:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

Mark 11:12-14, 19-25

The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.

that is just a sample of the attributes of God that Jesus obviously lacked,proving your statement (all that is true of God is true of Jesus) to be false.....


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But it is not saying that God is constrained to the limits of Jesus' skin.

and that is logical the infinite God wouldn't be constrained to the limits of Jesus' skin neither anybody else...

1Kings 8:27: But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this house which I have built?

and that makes the concept , that God dwells in Jesus (they both claimed to be one material)to be absurd.



Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
For instance, when one approaches the king, one might quite rightly feel that one is before one who embodies the full force and weight of the country that the king is sovereign over, but one would never say that the country is limited to simply the person of the king.
You want to say that God dwelled metaphorically in Jesus, the same as the power of the country dwelled metaphorically in the king?!!

If according to the trinitarians Jesus and God are from the same material then God dwelled literally in Jesus....

I'm afraid you got the false analogy..
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Follower
06-10-2009, 02:09 PM
LOL!! imam -There we go again....
A Muslim telling me what to believe the Trinity is.

Are you saying that Mohammad was reprimanding the Christians of his day using his understanding of what the Trinity is? That He thought the Trinity included Mary? And that there was no way the a secret Mary sect was in existance?

There is Collyridianism today.

I do understand the Trinity. I don't know how GOD can do it but I certainly understand the concept. I was simply trying to help Muslims explain a verse that many Christians point to to say the Quran is false.
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Grace Seeker
06-10-2009, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
That is true ,the fact that neither you nor anyone else would understand it..
it is a mystery but been solved by the Quran !!
as the best way to solve this trinity mystery is not to understand what trinity is, but to understand what trinity isn't.

The Quran(and common sense too) tells what trinity isn't,but you and those alike prefer to live in such mystery...

You would not accept the testimony of an athiest in describing what God is or is not, because one who does not believe in God is incapable of describing a god or God that he is completely unfamiliar with.

Likewsie, since the Qur'an does not believe that any trinity exists, it is incapable of explaining what the trinity is for it knows it not. It can of course present its own opinion that there is no such thing. And you, believe that it is the word of God, can choose to accept it as true. But if something does not exist, then it cannot be described. Not even God can describe that which is not. Thus, beyond saying that the Trinity simply isn't, the Qur'an cannot speak with any degree of authority on the Trinity, for it knows nothing about it.

And it shows its ignorance regarding the trinity in that in those few places where it does address it, the trinity that the Qur'an says one is not to believe in is also something that Christians do not believe with regard to the trinity either. The Qur'an never once (I'll modify that to, never once that I can recall, for I haven't memorized the Qur'an) speaks with regard to the concept of Trinity that orthodox trinitarian Christians actually believe.
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-10-2009, 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
God is omniscient:

having and being fully aware of all knowledge of all things actual and possible from the infinitesimal to the infinite in every realm at all times. Acts 15:18: All His works are known to God from eternity. Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.1Jo 3:20 God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Jesus Not:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

Mark 11:12-14, 19-25

The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.

that is just a sample of the attributes of God that Jesus obviously lacked,proving your statement (all that is true of God is true of Jesus) to be false.....
Ah, you got me on that one. My mistake. I spoke too hastily.

Yes, Jesus was limited in these ways. IMO, he probably also was no more aware of the larger world, the size of the universe, or the properties of the atom than your typical 1st century Galilean peasant.



If according to the trinitarians Jesus and God are from the same material then God dwelled literally in Jesus....
But of course God is not made out of matter at all. The "substance" of God, the Greeks used the word "essence" is, according to Jesus, spirit (John 4:24).
Reply

Imam
06-10-2009, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Likewsie, since the Qur'an does not believe that any trinity exists
Correction,
The Quran believes that its components exist (yhwh or Allah,Jesus,The holy spirit) but such components don't make one God..

in other words,It believes its slogan (one God ,which cover the three gods therein )exists but only in the mind of trinitarians..


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
the Qur'an cannot speak with any degree of authority on the Trinity, for it knows nothing about it.
The Quran has all the authority not only on the trinity but the whole biblical structure as long as It is proved to be divine,miracelous,inerrant ,the bible not.

when it comes to the trinity ,such hopeless muddle that only to be taken on pure faith,whose almost all adovocates ready with the word (mystery beyond human comprehension) whenever to be critisized, the trinty is not above criticism not only from the Quran but also from the whole non-christian world including the non-trinitarians christians as well....




Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The Qur'an never once speaks with regard to the concept of Trinity that orthodox trinitarian Christians actually believe.
which un-orthodox trinity the Quran is talking about?

It seems ,you want to take your turn after, Follower

but this time you need some documentation to do better than him....

It would be amazing if you provide me internal(Quranic) or external(common traditions surrounding the author of the Quran) evidence to support the argument that the Quran condemns other trinity than the one believed by the christians who lived in and by Mecca during the time of Mohamed (pbuh) .
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Follower
06-11-2009, 03:04 PM
OK imam - you have me convinced the Quran is saying that the Trinity is Mary, Jesus and GOD.

We see the command from the Quran to not say three in this verse- So who are the three and what are the three?

4:171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector.

We don't know until this verse that it is three gods we aren't to speak about and they are Mary, Jesus and GOD:

5:116
And when God said: "You Jesus Mary's son, did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother two gods from other than God?' He said: 'Your praise/glory, is not to be for me that I say what is not for me with right/truth, if I was said it, so You had known it, You know what in my self, and I do not know what in Your self, that You, You all knower the unseens/hidden.'"
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Grace Seeker
06-12-2009, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
which un-orthodox trinity the Quran is talking about?

It seems ,you want to take your turn after, Follower

but this time you need some documentation to do better than him....

It would be amazing if you provide me internal(Quranic) or external(common traditions surrounding the author of the Quran) evidence to support the argument that the Quran condemns other trinity than the one believed by the christians who lived in and by Mecca during the time of Mohamed (pbuh) .
You show me the passages in which you think the Qur'an is speaking about the Trinity that we Christians actually believe in and I'll show you those that do not speak of the Trinity that we believe in. They are the very same passages, for I haven't seen a good description of the Trinity in the Qur'an.

(Now, admittedly, as I've said before, I haven't memorized the Qur'an and may not be recalling something correctly. So, I could be wrong. But if I am, I would actually like you to show me. Not because I am daring you to show me up. But because I would like to find those passages so that I can better understand what it is that you believe that I don't -- or maybe in this case I should say that I believe that you don't.)

Anyway, it is true I have not seen a good description of the Trinity in the Qur'an. It is only the passages like those that Follower is pointing out where I find mention of any sort of trinity at all. And you know that Follower is right, we Christians don't believe in a trinity of Mary, God, and Jesus. But you and I also both know that this was not written as a reference to the Trinity that Christians actually believe, and only poor commentators have made that unnessecary link. So, where in the Qur'an does it speak of the Trinity that orthodox trinitarian Christians do believe in? I don't recall ever seeing it.
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Grace Seeker
06-13-2009, 01:52 AM
Imam, I just found this posted on another thread:
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
While the Quran does condemn both trinitarianism (the Quran 4:171; 5:73)[2] and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Quran 5:116)[3], nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity.
You will note that Abd-al Latif makes the same point that I did: nowhere does the Qur'an identify what it is that is the Christian Trinity. The Qur'an doesn't actually discuss what it is that we believe. But it does say that one should not say "Three." And you will note that not one Christian on here ever says that we believe in Three. No we claim to believe basically what the Qur'an confirms -- read it with new eyes for yourself rather than the interpretation passed down to you from others:
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word..." As I understand it if a person is referred to as "a word" from Allah, it means that he is a Messenger or a Prophet of Allah and Jesus does fulfill that role. But to say "a word" of Allah means that he is himself a message of Allah, and not just a messenger. Notice that here in 4:171 Jesus is both.


The text continues, "The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him." Is this text not saying that the Messiah, Jesus, is a spirit from Allah? I can't see how it can be read any other way. Yet, we know that Jesus was a mortal being of flesh and blood. So, how can it be that Jesus is a spirit? This would make Jesus both human and spirit. It would mean that he has two natures. And again, this is exactly what Christians have said all along.


So the only thing we have left to find in the Qur'an that is an essential teaching of Christianity is that when we refer to God and Jesus and the spirit that we are NOT talking about three. And if we complete the thought in the verse in question it makes that very statement: "So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three'."

Notice again, the Qur'an actually tells you not just to believe in Allah, but also in his messengers. And these messengers have just been identified for you in the verse as Jesus and his spirit. Believe in them. Not just believe in the message they brought. But actually believe in them, themselves. However, a word of caution when you do this, don't say "Three!" for we are not believing in three. No, in harmony with orthodox Christian teaching, Muslims are asked to believe that though we believe in God and in Jesus and in the Spirit - Allah is only One God. So, if any are saying that they are three, they should, according to 4:171 at least, cease doing so, for there is only one God whom we worship be we Christian or Muslim. Nothing could be more trinitarian than that.
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GreyKode
06-13-2009, 02:10 AM
So the only thing we have left to find in the Qur'an that is an essential teaching of Christianity is that when we refer to God and Jesus and the spirit that we are NOT talking about three. And if we complete the through in the verse in question it makes that very statement: "So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three'."
How do you interpret his messengers to include the holy spirit?
Even if you do so, the the three that you identified here supposedly ALLAH, Jesus Holy spirit are obviously distinct/separate/different unlike the trinity.

Is this the teaching of christianity? Don't you say that Jesus is GOD/part of the trinity/Co-equal to GOD?

Are you aware of this verse
"They have blasphemed those who say the messiah is ALLAH"
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islamdunk.123
06-13-2009, 02:54 AM
[The text continues, "The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him." Is this text not saying that the Messiah, Jesus, is a spirit from Allah? I can't see how it can be read any other way. Yet, we know that Jesus was a mortal being of flesh and blood. So, how can it be that Jesus is a spirit? This would make Jesus both human and spirit. It would mean that he has two natures. And again, this is exactly what Christians have said all along.
]

That is an excellent point to bring up, brother. The following is a video of Zakir Naik, a scholar, supplimenting your argument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHgKh...eature=related
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Grace Seeker
06-13-2009, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
How do you interpret his messengers to include the holy spirit?

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him."

So, Jesus is a spirit from Allah. How many spirits come from Allah?

And was it not by this spirit that Jesus (and Muhammad too) received the Gospel that they were to share with people? So, surely the spirit is a messenger.


Originally Posted by GreyKode
Is this the teaching of christianity? Don't you say that Jesus is GOD/part of the trinity/Co-equal to GOD?
And, No. Not exactly.
Reply

wth1257
06-13-2009, 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Likewsie, since the Qur'an does not believe that any trinity exists, it is incapable of explaining what the trinity is for it knows it not. It can of course present its own opinion that there is no such thing. And you, believe that it is the word of God, can choose to accept it as true. But if something does not exist, then it cannot be described. Not even God can describe that which is not. Thus, beyond saying that the Trinity simply isn't, the Qur'an cannot speak with any degree of authority on the Trinity, for it knows nothing about it.

That just is non-sense.

I don't know exactly where to start except to ask how you explain the substantial scientific investigations and descriptions of phlogiston?




the concept of Trinity that orthodox trinitarian Christians actually believe.

I know some Islamic thinkers state the the Qur'anic rebukes are to specific local Christian sects and not Christians in general.
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Grace Seeker
06-13-2009, 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by wth1257
I know some Islamic thinkers state the the Qur'anic rebukes are to specific local Christian sects and not Christians in general.
If true, that would fit much better with my interpretation of 4:171, above. I do know that Nestorian Christians were criticized because they so emphasized the distinctiveness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the subjugation of the Son and the Spirit to the Father that they treated them as if they were three different beings and were tri-theistic rather than true trinitarians. Though as an organized sect Nestorians had ceased to function by the time of Muhammed, Nestorianism and some of the ideas they espoused still live on even to this day. It is hightly probably that in his travels Muhammad might have run into some of the decendants of these folk who had migrated to the southern end of the Arabian pennisula centuries before. He would be quite right in telling them to cease saying "three," for that is one of the biggest reasons that orthodox Christianity saw (and continues to see) Nestorianism as a heresy.
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Imam
06-13-2009, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You will note that Abd-al Latif makes the same point that I did: nowhere does the Qur'an identify what it is that is the Christian Trinity.
If the verse tells christians to stop saying three,and it is not a scientific discovery to know which three the trinitarians say,and no other Quranic verse identifies the three as other three,then your point is irrelevant ...

what other three the word refers to,if not the trinity?!
what are you looking for?!

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The Qur'an doesn't actually discuss what it is that we believe. .
The Quran discuss what you believe in better terms ....
what is the best trinitarians ever offered to discuss their believe in the trinity?

A word (It is a mystery)..

The quran discussed the trinity,putting its members each in his right position

1-Its first person(mask) ,is put in his right position ,from mere a mask according to trinitarians to the only divine being,who has no persons shares him fully in this so called trinitarians Godhead.

2-its second person was put in his right prophetic chair,no more and no less.

3-its third person such great strong angel..


the trinity is discussed in the quran and in terms makes more sense than that of trinitarians....

If you want to learn something about the trinity,read the quran ..better than reading the stupid Nicene Creed,which teaches man nothing.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But it does say that one should not say "Three." And you will note that not one Christian on here ever says that we believe in Three. .
Christians never say three?!!!
christians say three as long as you able to count

God the father
God the son
God the holy spirit

The quran tells that Christians say three

(and say not, Three).

and Christians say three

God the father
God the son
God the holy spirit

whatever you would call such three eg,persons,masks etc.... is not the point.
The point is that the Quran does refer to some formula the Christians would claim to have 3 components ....It doesn't require great deal of wisdom to realize what is it ...
you can argue that you don't believe in three gods,but you wouldn't claim you never say three.


Quran 4:171
So believe in God and His messengers and don't say three, stop, that is better for you - God is only one God.


the message of the verse is very clear:

If you know that God is only one God
then stop saying three.


or may be you would prefer the text :

Quran 4:171
So believe in God and His messengers and don't say three persons, stop, that is better for you - God is only one God.


If the text like that we would find persons who argue ...no no

we think that better if it says
don't say three masks.

others would prefer

don't say three manifestations .

the Quran closed the door on their faces and told them saying three in any form you wish(persons,manifestations,masks) is to be condemned and violates the basics of true monotheism...

The Quran not only affirms that the concept of triune God is false,but also ,for the sake of argument,if the idea of triune God to be imagined,it would never be the Christian formula ,as the quran clearly affirms that Jesus is not God or a person of any trinity of any kind,the same case with the holy spirit..

you may argue that it is still ok to say three divine persons and yet claiming true monotheist etc...
well as you wish, but you got the Quranic warning ,take it or leave it..

To be continued


peace
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-13-2009, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Imam

what other three the word refers to,if not the trinity?!
what are you looking for?!
Again, you simply don't get what it means to say "Trinity".


To say trinity is NOT the equivalence of saying "Three". I see the trinity speaking of the unity of God, and therefore, properly understood, it speaks of God's Oneness.

Note that when in the Qur'an it says:
"So believe in God and His messengers and don't say three, stop, that is better for you - God is only one God."
that is doesn't name Christians as being the ones who say "three".

Now if you were to suggest that there were some Christians who did this, as I indicated above, I would agree that there was a group of Nestorian Christians who did this, and their descendants where still around at the time of Muhammad (some are still around even now) and he might have been referring to them. But he isn't referring to orthodox trinitarian Christianity.

You can count and add all you want, but that doesn't make it so. The orthodox Christian understanding of trinity is that there is one and only one God. To say God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is not to speak of three beings, but one. You either accept this or you don't, but that is the reality.


Originally Posted by Imam

Quran 4:171
So believe in God and His messengers and don't say three persons, stop, that is better for you - God is only one God.


If the text like that we would find persons who argue ...no no

we think that better if it says
don't say three masks.

others would prefer

don't say three manifestations .

the Quran closed the door on their faces and told them saying three in any form you wish(persons,manifestations,masks) is to be condemned and violates the basics of true monotheism...
But the Qur'an itself doesn't actually use the word "persons" or "masks" or "manifestations" or anything else. You are the one inserting those terms, not the Qur'an.

The Quran not only affirms that the concept of triune God is false,but also ,for the sake of argument,if the idea of triune God to be imagined,it would never be the Christian formula ,as the quran clearly affirms that Jesus is not God or a person of any trinity of any kind,the same case with the holy spirit..
Not so. Please find me where in the Qur'an it makes any declaration at all about the nature of the triune God. It doesn't. It says, "don't say 'three'." But the triune God is not three; the triune God is one. You want to emphasize the "tri-" portion because that matches your preconceived notions, but we are more interested in the "-unity" of God's triuneness.


If you continue to assert that 4:171 is referring to is the Christian concept of God then you are left with one of two options, neither of which do I expect you to appreciate, but they are all that remains.

Either
1) you misunderstand the Qur'an, for you assume it refers to orthodox trinitarian Christianity when it really is referring to something else
or
2) the Qur'an itself is wrong in suggesting that Christians say "Three." That is not our understanding of what we are saying. And we who are Christians get to be the ones who define our faith.


Non-Christians (not even the Qur'an) don't get to tell us what it is that we believe, we do.
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Imam
06-14-2009, 03:20 PM
such argument is typical of one Nazi guy who would believe in the peaceful Nazism ideology!, and one day after listening to a speech of Hitler that filled with his threats of attacks and war ,after all that he concluded his speech that all that he does is for peace and his ideology is peaceful!!! ..

The man goes ahead and as Grace-seeker says:

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
To say trinity is NOT the equivalence of saying "Three". I see the trinity speaking of the unity of God, and therefore, properly understood, it speaks of God's Oneness..

The man typically argues:


To say Nazism is NOT the equivalence of saying "war and intolerance". I see Nazism speaking of peace, and therefore, properly understood, it speaks of peace.


and as Grace-seeker blames me :

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You want to emphasize the "tri-" portion because that matches your preconceived notions, but we are more interested in the "-unity" of God's triuneness..
the man blames:

You want to emphasize the "war-" portion because that matches your preconceived notions, but we are more interested in the "peace" words that our leader Hitler concluded the speech with !!!!

:D



Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now if you were to suggest that there were some Christians who did this, as I indicated above, I would agree that there was a group of Nestorian Christians who did this
Look how many problems with such understanding:

Anyone who would say three(trinity) whether the so called orthodox trinitarians ,Nestorians, orthodox Ethiopians,copts, Najran Yemeni Christians(whom the prophet discussed with them face to face) , is to be condemned.....

you try to resort to the Nestorians issue to white washing the so called orthodox trinitarians, unfortunately both Orthodox and Nestorians are 2 faces of the same coin .....

Just one say three while talking about God's nature ,and be condemned immediately ,no matter if he thinks that the two individual natures of Christ, the human and the divine, are joined in conjunction ("synapheia") or in hypostatic union..

Jesus isn’t God or divine in the Quran ,there wasn’t anytime that he had a divinity joined in conjunction with his humanity nor there was a time a divinity joined his humanity in hypostatic union…….


No way for the so called orthodox trinity to be skipped from the criticism

5:72 “They do blaspheme who say: “Christ the son of Mary is God .”

If you continue arguing that the verse may be directed at so called unorthodox cult ,I can live with that .....

but I have showed you where your so called orthodox group is condemned.... Or may be you gonna argue next time that the believe that Jesus is God is a cult hearsay? :D

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
we who are Christians get to be the ones who define our faith.
And we who criticize how you define your faith ,just as Nazism though had peace slogans still to be criticized for being intolerant,aggressive

typically the same trinity,though has monotheistic slogan still to be condemned in terms of true monotheism ....


well,I think nothing more to be said in the issue which I call the backdoor issue (the trinity),anything more will be nothing but repeating and circular reasoning...

well ,that was my last post here ...


more on the trinity,
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post861698

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-right-2.html


peace and best wishes for all ....
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-14-2009, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Imam
Jesus isn’t God or divine in the Quran ,there wasn’t anytime that he had a divinity joined in conjunction with his humanity nor there was a time a divinity joined his humanity in hypostatic union…….


No way for the so called orthodox trinity to be skipped from the criticism

5:72 “They do blaspheme who say: “Christ the son of Mary is God .”


If you continue arguing that the verse may be directed at so called unorthodox cult ,I can live with that .....

but I have showed you where your so called orthodox group is condemned.... Or may be you gonna argue next time that the believe that Jesus is God is a cult hearsay? :D
I would agree with your assessment that Christianity is condemned in the Qur'an because it equates Jesus with God (though you may have trouble convincing brother Grenville that the Bible teaches this). And though you didn't quite accept my argument that 4:171 isn't properly directed at orthodox trinitarian Christianity, I can live with what you can live with on that issue.




A side point -- I try not to make parallels between Islam and groups that I don't think are fair comparisons (i.e. Nazis). Christianity abhors what Nazism was about just as much as Islam abhors what Al-Qeida is about. The difference is that, to the best of my knowledge, the Nazis never claimed that what they did they did in the name of Christianity nor shout praise to God while doing their horrific acts. I don't believe that you really think that Nazism and Christianity can be compared; so please don't.
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