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Forced_In
04-10-2009, 09:49 PM
Assalamo alaikom

One thing that sometimes bothers me is that our religion demands us to use
our brains, think, reason, ... but we often do not follow these orders. Do you
agree with this ? please explain your responses.

Wassalam.
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AabiruSabeel
04-10-2009, 10:01 PM
:sl:

We do not use our intellect in understanding why this particular action has been commanded in our religion. Ali (RA) says (in near meaning), if we were to use our intellect in understanding the Deen, then first question would be why do we have to wipe the socks (when we are using them, instead of washing the feet in wudhu) on its upper side, not on the lower side, whereas, when we walk, the socks would be dirtier/stained on the lower side, not the upper side.

Its just that we humans have limited intelligence, we cannot fully comprehend why Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has ordered us to do follow a particular command.
Since the creator knows better what is best for his creations, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows what is best for us.

Even the Sahabah used to say (to our Prophet sallallahu 'Alaihi wa Sallam), We will obey your command even if it suits our desires or not, even if we can understand it or not, even if we are capable (in terms of material means) or not. They said, if you ask us to jump into the sea, you won't find a single one among us refraining from it. They never thought jumping into the sea would be suicide, how can we follow that. They had such obedience of Allah and His Messenger that no power on this earth was able to stop them from obedience.

But we apologetic muslims try to find excuses to not follow certain commands...


:w:
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czgibson
04-10-2009, 10:02 PM
Greetings,

One thing that sometimes bothers me is that our religion demands us to use
our brains, think, reason, ... but we often do not follow these orders. Do you
agree with this ? please explain your responses.
I think that's a criticism that could be levelled at people of all kinds, not just Muslims. Humans are fallible, as you can easily see by watching the news any day of the week.

If we don't get together and sort ourselves out, we may not last much longer on this planet.

Peace
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Yanal
04-10-2009, 10:17 PM
Most likely muslims do use their intelluctual brain ,but some like a forum member here critize but will gods word stop them? I think yes,some people may have a personaility like that from the start and it is not a common personaility that makes us feel bad when they could be bringing up a point or correcting a mistake one of us possibly did.
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alcurad
04-10-2009, 10:20 PM
yes, people never like to be confronted by their mistakes, nor to disagree especially when there's threat to integrity as a believer not to mention as a person.

always seek evidence, whatever doesn't stand to reason when taken with the bigger picture is to be abandoned.
and then question the evidence, whatever seems too convoluted or is in disagreement with the general agreed upon principles is to be abandoned.
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Sahabiyaat
04-10-2009, 10:26 PM
actually i have come across those...who hav dangerously crossed the boundary of reason....and criticise everything, and have begun to....to use the exact phrase 'derive' laws for themselves, based on their perceptions.

how do u keep the balance between belief and reason?
Reply

Forced_In
04-10-2009, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
:sl:

We do not use our intellect in understanding why this particular action has been commanded in our religion. Ali (RA) says (in near meaning), if we were to use our intellect in understanding the Deen, then first question would be why do we have to wipe the socks (when we are using them, instead of washing the feet in wudhu) on its upper side, not on the lower side, whereas, when we walk, the socks would be dirtier/stained on the lower side, not the upper side.

Its just that we humans have limited intelligence, we cannot fully comprehend why Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has ordered us to do follow a particular command.
Since the creator knows better what is best for his creations, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows what is best for us.

Even the Sahabah used to say (to our Prophet sallallahu 'Alaihi wa Sallam), We will obey your command even if it suits our desires or not, even if we can understand it or not, even if we are capable (in terms of material means) or not. They said, if you ask us to jump into the sea, you won't find a single one among us refraining from it. They never thought jumping into the sea would be suicide, how can we follow that. They had such obedience of Allah and His Messenger that no power on this earth was able to stop them from obedience.

But we apologetic muslims try to find excuses to not follow certain commands...


:w:
salaam

Well as I said, I mean the aql which is already mentioned in the deen. Now
there are points to be made. First on using aql to fully underestand the
orders : Sure we might not get what is all behind but in much more cases we
have to use qyas to see which particular rule should be in effect in a
situation unknown to us. Further I consider knowing ones aql limitation is by
itself a great achievement that is when we become aware that religious
orders are from the wisest and most merciful and we are limited by many
means.

But still I think we are in many cases not using or aql as we should for it is
said numerous times in quran that (literaly) why dont you think, why dont
you use your brains, are those who know the same as those who dont know,
... and I suspect that in fact aql and imaan dont contradict rather they
cooperate but many of us ( myself the first ) are just ignorant.
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alcurad
04-10-2009, 10:44 PM
belief should not unreasonable, as simple as that.
it doesn't need Greek logic to support it-although that might be nice sometimes- rather true belief is based on reasoning.
some laws should be derived, others not, the more you know, the less you will disagree-من كثر علمه قل إنكاره- .
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Forced_In
04-10-2009, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



I think that's a criticism that could be levelled at people of all kinds, not just Muslims. Humans are fallible, as you can easily see by watching the news any day of the week.

If we don't get together and sort ourselves out, we may not last much longer on this planet.

Peace
Hello,

Yes but I would say that we as muslims have special instructions for that
which I think we do not follow the way we should; I wonder why.

Peace
Reply

Forced_In
04-10-2009, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
actually i have come across those...who hav dangerously crossed the boundary of reason....and criticise everything, and have begun to....to use the exact phrase 'derive' laws for themselves, based on their perceptions.

how do u keep the balance between belief and reason?
salaam

Now that is the question; For my part, how can you say what is the balance
point ? I would say for that you need to use your aql too. Say a minimalistic
definition is that is a point which is in neither extremes, Now that we know
where it is not, we should ask where it should be.
Reply

Forced_In
04-10-2009, 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by alcurad
belief should not unreasonable, as simple as that.
it doesn't need Greek logic to support it-although that might be nice sometimes- rather true belief is based on reasoning.
some laws should be derived, others not, the more you know, the less you will disagree-من كثر علمه قل إنكاره- .
salaam,

I second this. Please note that we had great logicians throughout Islam's
history too.

wassalaam.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
04-11-2009, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by Forced_In
salaam

First on using aql to fully underestand the orders : Sure we might not get what is all behind but in much more cases we have to use qyas to see which particular rule should be in effect in a situation unknown to us. Further I consider knowing ones aql limitation is by itself a great achievement that is when we become aware that religious orders are from the wisest and most merciful and we are limited by many means.
:sl:

Yes its`true. We can use our aql to try and understand our Deen. The scholars have explained a lot on why a particular rule has been made. What I meant is, if any layman like me tries to use my aql to and say this rule is not-understandable, or not-applicable in modern times, this must have been this way, not the other way as prescribed, without studying the Religious texts, and what the scholars have said on it, then that is simply the lack of my intellect, not any flaw in the Deen.

But still I think we are in many cases not using or aql as we should for it is
said numerous times in quran that (literaly) why dont you think, why dont
you use your brains, are those who know the same as those who dont know,
... and I suspect that in fact aql and imaan dont contradict rather they
cooperate but many of us ( myself the first ) are just ignorant.
True. Trying to understand the signs of Allah in His creations by using our aql, and scientific tools is encouraged in our Deen.
Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says in the end of Surah Aal-Imran,
Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,-
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