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AntiKarateKid
04-18-2009, 09:15 PM
While procrastinating during my study time I was thinking...

How come I have never heard an atheist say, I was outside on a beautiful summers day gazing at the greenery when I said to myself, "There is no God."

It always seems to be:

1. I saw suffering
2. These people acted evil and hurt me or someone else
3. The world is a bad place
4. There can't be anything on the other side, we're just animals and will turn to dust.

On the contrary, people who become Muslims or Christians mention:

1. Someone did good to me or someone else
2. The heavens and the earth so beautiful and complex
3. There has to be something out there, we're not just animals, we have eternal souls.


Seems like more often than not, atheism sprouts from negativity, while theism from positivity.

Now you may say that you "logically arrived" at atheism, but new theists would say the exact same thing about their views. This doesn't change the pattern of negativity and positivity that I mentioned above.
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Joe98
04-18-2009, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Seems like more often than not, atheism sprouts from negativity, while theism from positivity.

I say it is exactly the opposite.

1. All my grandparents have died otherwise nothng bad has ever happened to me
2. I have seen very little sufferiing
3. There are alwyas bad peole doing something bad
4. The world is mostly a good place





format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
How come I have never heard an atheist say, I was outside on a beautiful summers day gazing at the greenery when I said to myself, "There is no God."

That is exactly how it happened to me - except it was not in 5 seconds it was instead over a number of years.

-
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AntiKarateKid
04-18-2009, 11:29 PM
Ah ok, which wonderfully positive event sparked your lifelong distaste for the Creator and your belief that we have no souls? Give me your happiest one!
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-19-2009, 12:26 AM
no happy person has any motive to disbelieve God.

only by failing tests and incapability to see Gods wisdom do they turn to disbelief!


may Allah protect us from it, Ameen
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Trumble
04-19-2009, 12:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Seems like more often than not, atheism sprouts from negativity, while theism from positivity.
I'd actually replace 'negativity' with 'realism' and 'positivity' with 'denial'. Maybe that's negativity in itself, though :)
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AntiKarateKid
04-19-2009, 12:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I'd actually replace 'negativity' with 'realism' and 'positivity' with 'denial'. Maybe that's negativity in itself, though :)
I say religion is more realistic. Did you read the bottom of my post?

I am purely talking about negativity and positivity.
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burdenofbeing
04-19-2009, 02:06 AM
Believing because someone did something good to you is at least as stupid as not believing because something bad happened to you. And I'll leave it at that.
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AntiKarateKid
04-19-2009, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
Believing because someone did something good to you is at least as stupid as not believing because something bad happened to you. And I'll leave it at that.
Brother, you have misunderstood my statement.

I did not say ANYTHING about the validity of the reason. I am talking about the trigger event that leads a person down each particular path. A person who has good done to them by a Muslim may then seek to understand Islam more. A person who "sees too much suffering in the world" may have that event disillusion him and LEAD to exploring atheism.
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Pygoscelis
04-19-2009, 03:51 AM
I would flip this completely on its head.

Happy people don't need Gods.

Its the people who go through hard times, death of a family member, tragic event, etc that tend to need to reach out for the comforts of religion. Can't accept your father died? Tell yourself "he's in a better place now". Afraid of death or having a tough life? Tell yourself the next life will be so much nicer. Afraid of the world around you? Tell yourself God is in control and is looking out for you.

Those are the bulk of the converts I've met.

Of course most religious people were programmed with it from birth, so we can't really look to them on this.

As for apostates (those who leave faiths), the bulk of ex-religious people I have met did not become that way due to any sudden event, but rather slowly over time. I'm actually pretty hard pressed to think of any fellow atheist who became atheist in a sudden epiphany the way some religious people claim to have come to their faith.
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burdenofbeing
04-19-2009, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Brother, you have misunderstood my statement.

I did not say ANYTHING about the validity of the reason. I am talking about the trigger event that leads a person down each particular path. A person who has good done to them by a Muslim may then seek to understand Islam more. A person who "sees too much suffering in the world" may have that event disillusion him and LEAD to exploring atheism.
I agree with what you are saying. Still, they need to be the last straw on the back of the camel in both cases, and they need to be relevant to the image of god those people have.

Pygoscelis' arguments are valid as well. I think most of the time that's the case. People tend to go to religion, to be happier, and more content. Atheism don't promise any happiness at all. Maybe except the lack of eternal pain, but that's hardly happiness. It's famously said that, there are no atheists in a sinking ship. That's not because something beautiful is happening.

I think being happy is a good thing though. I have atheist friends who say, I wish I could believe.
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cali dude
04-19-2009, 05:20 AM
I am not atheist but last year, something happened and it comvinced me that no religion, that I know enough about, is perfect enough to be a message of The Almighty Lord.

For some reason, I have been very relieved since this happened and I am much happier now...
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glo
04-19-2009, 08:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
How come I have never heard an atheist say, I was outside on a beautiful summers day gazing at the greenery when I said to myself, "There is no God."
But you may find an atheist sitting outside on a beautiful day, pondering in awe how life evolved to such beauty and complexity, and how s/he came to be alive her/himself against all statistical odds!
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Jtherva
04-21-2009, 12:04 AM
If your happy you think, this belief i have is working why change it if im happy. You'd have no need stop bleiveing as it could risk you losing your happiness that might be caused by you believing in god. So its safer to just stay as you are.

However if your unhappy and believe in god, you might want to not bother sacrificing having to believe in something that isnt adding any value you your life.

Believeing in something means you have to sacrifice the assertion that your brilliant and smart as your doing something that you dont know if right for sure. You are showing yourself your not so brilliant and amazing as youd like to think. As your faced with having to do something your not certain about.

It seems there more to lose by stopping believing in god if your happy than stopping believing in god if your unhappy.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-21-2009, 12:17 AM
I was on a beatuaful green hill, standing on grass that evolved to be as it is, staring at a perfect night sky. thinking about the inner workings of reality, and thought, "God is not needed for all this," its beauty then increased ten fold.

@AKK this thread is made in ignorance.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-21-2009, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I would flip this completely on its head.

Happy people don't need Gods.

Its the people who go through hard times, death of a family member, tragic event, etc that tend to need to reach out for the comforts of religion. Can't accept your father died? Tell yourself "he's in a better place now". Afraid of death or having a tough life? Tell yourself the next life will be so much nicer. Afraid of the world around you? Tell yourself God is in control and is looking out for you.

Those are the bulk of the converts I've met.

Of course most religious people were programmed with it from birth, so we can't really look to them on this.

As for apostates (those who leave faiths), the bulk of ex-religious people I have met did not become that way due to any sudden event, but rather slowly over time. I'm actually pretty hard pressed to think of any fellow atheist who became atheist in a sudden epiphany the way some religious people claim to have come to their faith.
I did not become an atheist in such a way but the event that started the whole chain of events and led me away from my original Chatholic faith was quite sudden.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-21-2009, 12:22 AM
AKK stop confusing nihlism with atheism.

EDIT: Also not some people have become happyer since becoming an atheist, even though it does not promise that.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-21-2009, 02:39 PM
^ happiness? for how long?


if its not a lifetimes worth its not worth it. All their happiness is, is a respite till their doom or guidance.


this is more a reminder to the muslims then a statement towards the atheists.
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memories
04-21-2009, 11:23 PM
I do not think that a Atheist can be happy, sure they can have a family life as normal as everyone, and think they are happy, but inside there will always be somethig missing, God.And when they get to the end of the road they will regret.One can not dismiss the existence of god, it is illogical in my opinion.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-21-2009, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
I do not think that a Atheist can be happy, sure they can have a family life as normal as everyone, and think they are happy, but inside there will always be somethig missing, God.And when they get to the end of the road they will regret.One can not dismiss the existence of god, it is illogical in my opinion.
:thumbs_up i agree happy outside inside missing somthing how can anyone be happy not know who created them and for what they are created for the best and true success is to know who your Lord is and Know why He created you :)
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memories
04-21-2009, 11:40 PM
indeed, you cant just float about cruising trough life enjoying the pleasures of life,it sounds like a fun calm and peacefull highway to nowhere. you need god in that life in my opininon, you need to find him and have faith. one of the arguments the Atheist use often is: well if god exists why dosent he come down here and eradicate misery and suffering, well i would awnser to that that if god would in fact come down and shower us with mircales what would be the use of faith ? the world would only say:oh well there he is performing miracle thank you,thats all. no ,you need faith, you need to proove to a loving god that you are worthy of his love. thats what i think
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Joe98
04-22-2009, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories

....arguments the Atheist use often is: well if god exists why dosent he come down here and eradicate misery and suffering,

No, no, why doesn't he just come down here full stop!


The story goes that whe god spoke to Adam, god's voice boomed out of a cloud - god did not come down to earth.

When god spoke to Moses, god's voice came out of a burning bush. Why did god not appear as a man?

When god told Mary she was with child, the event was so important god sent an angel to tell her - god didn't have the time to visit.

And when god gave that very importyant message to the prophet mohammed (pbuh) god again was to busy that day ( those 20 years) and sent an angel as many times as it took till the complete message was delivered.

In school, teachers watch over you and you get a report card.

At the office the boss manages you and tells you how you are going.

God never gives a report card.

God has never visited the earth. In all the religious stories god has never visited the earth.

-
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GreyKode
04-22-2009, 12:39 AM
No, no, why doesn't he just come down here full stop!
If that's your argument, then I think the chrisitian belief will perfectly satisfy you.
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coddles76
04-22-2009, 12:45 AM
I would say it Depends on how you DEFINE HAPPY?

There are many interpretations to the English word HAPPY? Once you define that than you can gain a more defined answer to the question.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 01:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
No, no, why doesn't he just come down here full stop!


The story goes that whe god spoke to Adam, god's voice boomed out of a cloud - god did not come down to earth.

When god spoke to Moses, god's voice came out of a burning bush. Why did god not appear as a man?-
Allah is perfect. He is not like any of His creation. , and a muslim is NOT allowed to compare Allah with any of his creatures.
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
When god told Mary she was with child, the event was so important god sent an angel to tell her - god didn't have the time to visit.
And when god gave that very importyant message to the prophet mohammed (pbuh) god again was to busy that day ( those 20 years) and sent an angel as many times as it took till the complete message was delivered.-
No man can withstand the sight or presence of Allah (SWT) AND he got angels to do that
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
In school, teachers watch over you and you get a report card.

At the office the boss manages you and tells you how you are going.

God never gives a report card.-
he give final report card A = Paradise F= HELL Pays you with all you desires=paradise pays you with pain and fire =hell
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
God has never visited the earth. In all the religious stories god has never visited the earth.-
Nope He created it He dont need to visit it it belongs to Him just like you do
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 01:33 AM
Of course none of you are atheist so none of you would know if we feel something missing on the inside. We do not. If we were truly unhappy on the inside and felt like we were missing something why would we stay an atheist?
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coddles76
04-22-2009, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Of course none of you are atheist so none of you would know if we feel something missing on the inside. We do not. If we were truly unhappy on the inside and felt like we were missing something why would we stay an atheist?
How's about we define happy first???
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Of course none of you are atheist so none of you would know if we feel something missing on the inside. We do not. If we were truly unhappy on the inside and felt like we were missing something why would we stay an atheist?
keep telling your self that :) the reason is you would not like to consider one day they will have to answer for their actions and for their refusal to acknowledge their Benefactor to whom they owe their very existence
Allah knows best
but as you said how we know i have never been that far lost and gone :D
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by coddles76
How's about we define happy first???
So what makes a person happy?

format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
keep telling your self that :) the reason is you would not like to consider one day they will have to answer for their actions and for their refusal to acknowledge their Benefactor to whom they owe their very existence
Allah knows best
It is not just a refusal but an inability to accept the idea.
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coddles76
04-22-2009, 01:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
So what makes a person happy?
My dear friend, that is not a definition, Who can help in defining happy?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 01:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
So what makes a person happy?


It is not just a refusal but an inability to accept the idea.
oh u can but you dont want to you are so far lost but ill pray for you no worries:)
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 01:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by coddles76
My dear friend, that is not a definition, Who can help in defining happy?
A happy person is some one who experiences joy. They may also feel sorrow and the like but learn from that and know how to move past it. A happy person is some one who enjoys life, has a positive attitude, makes the best of things, sees the good side of things, hmmmmmm etc....
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GreyKode
04-22-2009, 01:47 AM
Interesting thread, but I'm off.Time for Fajr prayer here :D.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 01:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
A happy person is some one who experiences joy. They may also feel sorrow and the like but learn from that and know how to move past it. A happy person is some one who enjoys life, has a positive attitude, makes the best of things, sees the good side of things, hmmmmmm etc....
Well i hope you make the best of things now but always remember this Allah is the must forgiving and merciful run back to Him and beg for His mercy and forgiveness:)
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 01:49 AM
“Allah (Mighty and Exalted Be He) is indeed very Merciful, Loving and Compassionate, but He is also Just and Severe in punishment

we cant forget “Forgiver of sins, Accepter of repentance, the Stern in punishment, the Powerful…” (Ghafir: 3)

It is wrong to accept only some aspect of Allah and ignore or negate some other aspects. When people believe only in the love of Allah and ignore His justice and power they become careless and do whatever they wish. When people believe in the justice and power of Allah and ignore His love and compassion they become hermits and monks and run away from the world and its enjoyments. Islam teaches us a balanced life and so it teaches us both aspects of Allah’s Being.
from islamonline.com
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coddles76
04-22-2009, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
A happy person is some one who experiences joy. They may also feel sorrow and the like but learn from that and know how to move past it. A happy person is some one who enjoys life, has a positive attitude, makes the best of things, sees the good side of things, hmmmmmm etc....
Hmmmm, Exactly. I think that is a very limited definition of happy (It has an ending, as it is restricted to This life itself). What happens when this life ends?
I myself would define happiness as an overall contentment of the inner soul. A soul which is free from the desire of the materialistic nature of life and has a feeling of purpose for its existence. What happens when the person or soul reaches the highest level of what this existence can offer? Its reached the highest point but cannot offer anymore? What happens then? I would say it turns to sadness, to lack of hope for something bigger and that is why I would define a happy soul to be a soul that searches for something bigger, something beyond the realm of this life. Once the soul finds that bigger existance and is content with it, thats when it would be TRULY HAPPY!.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 01:58 AM
AoP I WANNA ASK you a question be honest have you ever prayed to God you know when things are tough or you are down?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
AoP I WANNA ASK you a question be honest have you ever prayed to God you know when things are tough or you are down?
Once since becoming an atheist, but it was more to make a point. Also I tried to make a deal with the devel first. Like I said it was to make a point and to show that I meant anything. Mby I'll pm you the story it is very personal, probably not fully appropraite, and may contain info I do not feel like disclosing to the gneral public here atm.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 02:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Once since becoming an atheist, but it was more to make a point. Also I tried to make a deal with the devel first. Like I said it was to make a point and to show that I meant anything. Mby I'll pm you the story it is very personal, probably not fully appropraite, and may contain info I do not feel like disclosing to the gneral public here atm.
i would love to here it but its ok i dont think you should share something that personal :) but you answered my question and that was the only time
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:29 AM
There is this "skeptics prayer" I do some times. "lord, if there is a lord, save my soul, if I have a soul," its short sweet and to the point. You can't say that I am not and have not tried.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
i would love to here it but its ok i dont think you should share something that personal :) but you answered my question and that was the only time
Like I said its not about sharing the info but about sharing it here. Also I made a point to mention that I did not do so in the normal sense. It was more of to make a point.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Like I said its not about sharing the info but about sharing it here. Also I made a point to mention that I did not do so in the normal sense. It was more of to make a point.
yes i understand to make a point to the devil that there is no God right?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
yes i understand to make a point to the devil that there is no God right?
No. To show some one that I meant anything, to show some one I loved them, to show someone that nothing else mattered, to show some one what my heart felt. erhm etc. Also you missed my post about the skeptics prayer.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 02:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
No. To show some one that I meant anything, to show some one I loved them, to show someone that nothing else mattered, to show some one what my heart felt. erhm etc. Also you missed my post about the skeptics prayer.
i sure did miss it so when you do that do u do it with sincerity?
well so deep deep deep down inside you you have a feeling that God does exist?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
i sure did miss it so when you do that do u do it with sincerity?
Skeptical sincerity but yes with sincerity. I do it with an open mind.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Skeptical sincerity but yes with sincerity. I do it with an open mind.
what is it that is holding you back from loving your Lord?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
well so deep deep deep down inside you you have a feeling that God does exist?
No, I just read it in something Woodrow gave me. At the time I was getting a lot of you don't believe because you do not try to believe or something like that so I decided to try it out. Going for the whole intellectual honesty thing.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
No, I just read it in something Woodrow gave me. At the time I was getting a lot of you don't believe because you do not try to believe or something like that so I decided to try it out. Going for the whole intellectual honesty thing.
how did you try it out?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
what is it that is holding you back from loving your Lord?
lack of belief in the whole concept would be the main thing.
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Joe98
04-22-2009, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^
but always remember this Allah is the must forgiving and merciful......

Good! To me the idea of any god is totally incomprehensible.

So, from you're perspective, god knows what is in my heart and will therefore send me straight to paradise.

He will not punish me for not believing in the celestial teapot. He will punish you because you failed to convince me.


-
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
how did you try it out?
I recited the pray or some alteration of it. I do it here and there. I have tried it with different mentalities and such.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Good! To me the idea of any god is totally incomprehensible.

So, from you're perspective, god knows what is in my heart and will therefore send me straight to paradise.

He will not punish me for not believing in the celestial teapot. He will punish you because you failed to convince me.


-
I am disapointed in you. I know one of my biggest pet pevees as an atheist is being told I will go to hell. Yet, here I see you telling some one they would go to hell for x reason. Really man? I am dissapointed. Not to mention the fallicies in it.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Good! To me the idea of any god is totally incomprehensible.

So, from you're perspective, god knows what is in my heart and will therefore send me straight to paradise.

He will not punish me for not believing in the celestial teapot. He will punish you because you failed to convince me.


-
lol very very funny man you are :) If you refuse even with evident proofs in front of you, this is not between me and you; it is between you and your Creator.it is not my job to "prove" anything to anyone. i only need to present the facts in truth and allow the listener to make up you own mind.
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 02:49 AM
I don't have any close atheist friends but one brother whose my friend is an atheist has a happy life according to him he's trying to become a cat...he says "all I do is drink milk and go on the computer".
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GreyKode
04-22-2009, 02:49 AM
Joe98, did you check my post?
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 02:50 AM
Which post?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 02:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I am disapointed in you. I know one of my biggest pet pevees as an atheist is being told I will go to hell. Yet, here I see you telling some one they would go to hell for x reason. Really man? I am dissapointed. Not to mention the fallicies in it.
:) no worries that just shows he believes in heaven and hell so thats a start i pray ALLAH guides him AND ALL OF US AMEEN
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AntiKarateKid
04-22-2009, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I am disapointed in you. I know one of my biggest pet pevees as an atheist is being told I will go to hell. Yet, here I see you telling some one they would go to hell for x reason. Really man? I am dissapointed. Not to mention the fallicies in it.
There is no fallacy in it. Every action is judged by its intention. If you're intention is to ignore Allah and go about focusing on your earthly life with no regards to the hereafter, then Allah will grant you that. You will have nothing later. Justice.

There is nothing to be disappointed in, except the unfulfilled potential of your soul. May Allah guide you.
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 02:53 AM
Ameen.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I recited the pray or some alteration of it. I do it here and there. I have tried it with different mentalities and such.
dONT GIVE UP YOU ARE A GOOD AND WISE MAN ONLY MISSING A THING OUR OR 2 ONE IS GOD
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 02:53 AM
And your soul will most likely suffer and I don't want that brother AoP.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
There is no fallacy in it. Every action is judged by its intention. If you're intention is to ignore Allah and go about life focus on your earthly life with no regards to the hereafter, then Allah will grant you that. You will have nothing later.

There is nothing to be disappointed in, except the unfulfilled potential of your soul.
Really dude?.............. First of the fallicy was the Umar would go to hell because even though he had good intent he failed. Allah would know that Umar would have tried so this would not be the case. That was Joes fallacy God will send me to heaven because he knows my heart can not understand him but you will go to hell because you failed to help find God even though God would know he tried. Second off their is plenty to be dissapointed by with the end of that post. Did you not understand my post, because your reply sure seem to indicate that fact.
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AntiKarateKid
04-22-2009, 02:57 AM
Yea honestly, Islam invites you to use your intellect to discover Allah. You seem intellectual, so go for it.
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AntiKarateKid
04-22-2009, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Really dude?.............. First of the fallicy was the Umar would go to hell because even though he had good intent he failed. Allah would know that Umar would have tried so this would not be the case. That was Joes fallacy God will send me to heaven because he knows my heart can not understand him but you will go to hell because you failed to help find God even though God would know he tried. Second off their is plenty to be dissapointed by with the end of that post. Did you not understand my post, because your reply sure seem to indicate that fact.
A person fails due to himself and him alone. Good intentions must be accompanied with proper actions. Proper actions are carried out by the person.

Rephrase your response because I can't seem to understand what you're trying to pass off as a fallacy.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
dONT GIVE UP YOU ARE A GOOD AND WISE MAN ONLY MISSING A THING OUR OR 2 ONE IS GOD
And what would some others be?:D I use to get insulted by people wishing that but nowadays I take it as a compliment when I am putting myself in such a place to receive those words. However if I with out inciting it get told that some one wants me to find God or faith I get annoyed. If I am leaving you alone then you should leave me alone. Now here I am not leaving you alone so it is a compliment.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
A person fails due to himself and him alone. Good intentions must be accompanied with proper actions. Proper actions are carried out by the person.

Rephrase your response because I can't seem to understand what you're trying to pass off as a fallacy.
Joe said Allah will forgive him for not being able to understand him because Allah is all knowing and forgiving but would punish Umar for his positive intent to help Joe even though his failure to do so was not his own fault. Joe was contradicting himself.
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 03:04 AM
Only care about your own deeds and intentions brother.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
And what would some others be?:D I use to get insulted by people wishing that but nowadays I take it as a compliment when I am putting myself in such a place to receive those words. However if I with out inciting it get told that some one wants me to find God or faith I get annoyed. If I am leaving you alone then you should leave me alone. Now here I am not leaving you alone so it is a compliment.
I sure hope i didnt offend you :) so whats holding you back i didnt see if you posted anything about this question
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Pygoscelis
04-22-2009, 03:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
There is this "skeptics prayer" I do some times. "lord, if there is a lord, save my soul, if I have a soul," its short sweet and to the point. You can't say that I am not and have not tried.
My version is "God, please save me from your believers" I enjoy the irony.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
I sure hope i didnt offend you :) so whats holding you back i didnt see if you posted anything about this question
I did but the main reason was that I can not beilive in the concept of God/god(s). Then the way I view some gods, how I view reality, and the lack of appeal and evidence..... just to be brief.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
My version is "God, please save me from your believers" I enjoy the irony.
lol. Now that I find funny. Then again I can understand where such a statement would come from.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
My version is "God, please save me from your believers" I enjoy the irony.
So you believe in God :D
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
My version is "God, please save me from your believers" I enjoy the irony.
I assume you meant, "God, if their is a God, save me from you believers, if they are YOUR believers."
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I did but the main reason was that I can not beilive in the concept of God/god(s). Then the way I view some gods, how I view reality, and the lack of appeal and evidence..... just to be brief.
One approach is to suggest simple yet convincing experiments anyone could comprehend. For instance, say to someone, "Consider this the next time you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them?
from GODALLAH.COM
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I did but the main reason was that I can not beilive in the concept of God/god(s). Then the way I view some gods, how I view reality, and the lack of appeal and evidence..... just to be brief.
Another example is have them consider what might happen if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
One approach is to suggest simple yet convincing experiments anyone could comprehend. For instance, say to someone, "Consider this the next time you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them?
from GODALLAH.COM
How does this help? I fully missed the point.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:14 AM
We just begin with simple logic. When something is right in front of our eyes it is difficult to deny it, right? Asking rhetorical questions can be very helpful in presenting our case. Begin by asking the question; "Can you prove you exist?" Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine what you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things He has created and the way He cares for things and sustains us, to know there is no doubt of His existence.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Another example is have them consider what might happen if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around?
Thats not at all how evolution works. Don't use the tired and beat canards on me. I have a great understanding of the process and this is not it at all.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:14 AM
Or ask someone to consider what it would be like if someone told us about a fast food restaurant operating itself without any people there? The food just cooks itself, files from the kitchen to the table and then when we are done, the dishes jump back the kitchen to wash themselves. This is too crazy for anyone to even think about.

After reflecting on all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the cells in a microscope and then think all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident"?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
We just begin with simple logic. When something is right in front of our eyes it is difficult to deny it, right? Asking rhetorical questions can be very helpful in presenting our case. Begin by asking the question; "Can you prove you exist?" Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine what you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things He has created and the way He cares for things and sustains us, to know there is no doubt of His existence.
I do not see that when I look around me.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Thats not at all how evolution works. Don't use the tired and beat canards on me. I have a great understanding of the process and this is not it at all.
SORRY but i dont get what your are saying:)
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Or ask someone to consider what it would be like if someone told us about a fast food restaurant operating itself without any people there? The food just cooks itself, files from the kitchen to the table and then when we are done, the dishes jump back the kitchen to wash themselves. This is too crazy for anyone to even think about.

After reflecting on all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the cells in a microscope and then think all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident"?
With a deeper understanding of such things. Being able to see the big picture. Looking not only at the parts and their cuases but everythign else.
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 03:16 AM
Thats the point it's your faith and belief in him.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
SORRY but i dont get what your are saying:)
The thing about a tornado in a junkyard making a car is not a good comparision for evolution thats not how evolution works. I am getting to bed now so goodnight.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Thats the point it's your faith and belief in him.
I dont have any faith....
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
The thing about a tornado in a junkyard making a car is not a good comparision for evolution thats not how evolution works. I am getting to bed now so goodnight.
:) dont for get to try and pray that Allah (God) guides you :)
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
:) dont for get to try and pray that Allah (God) guides you :)
Ight, I'll try again then. Goodnight Bro.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Ight, I'll try again then. Goodnight Bro.
Bro? Not yet soon inshallah respectful acquaintance :)
have a great night
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GreyKode
04-22-2009, 03:23 AM
^Umar I think he is starting to get annoyed
remember : "wa ma alayka illa al balagh"

ALLAH is the one who guides.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Bro? Not yet soon inshallah respectful acquaintance :)
have a great night
I am sorry but what?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
^Umar I think he is starting to get annoyed
remember : "wa ma alayka illa al balagh"

ALLAH is the one who guides.
indeed Allah is the only one who truly guides
and as a muslim my duty is to speak about islam and help people understand if he silm its all ALLAH
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I am sorry but what?
there is no brotherhood between the believers and the disbelievers :) no offense i like talking/chatting with you
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 03:29 AM
You are starting to get little doubts of faith,or I hope at least...
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
there is no brotherhood between the believers and the disbelievers :) no offense i like talking/chatting with you
We are all brothers and sisters in humanity.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
You are starting to get little doubts of faith,or I hope at least...
who?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 03:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
We are all brothers and sisters in humanity.
indeed we all are creation of God and all are sons of Adam but the brotherhood is not there between a believer and a non believer :)
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 03:34 AM
I was talking to respected brother AoP.
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Joe98
04-22-2009, 04:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
but the brotherhood is not there between a believer and a non believer

Thats because Islam teaches this. Islam is supposed to be tolerant but this is an example of intolerance

Athiests would like there to be a brotherhood between all.

-
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GreyKode
04-22-2009, 04:38 AM
would you consider loving your biological brother more than a stranger as intolerant?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 04:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Thats because Islam teaches this. Islam is supposed to be tolerant but this is an example of intolerance

Athiests would like there to be a brotherhood between all.

-
Well that is great for you keep wanting but still no brotherhood between a believer and a non believer and tolerance ah we have much i can talk to u respect you but still you are not my brother how can i say you are when your are not that will be lying. But all the same i have no problems with you for you is your way and for me is mine:)
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-22-2009, 04:44 AM
Joe a question if you dont mind
Do you believe we are all children of Adam and Eve or the whole monkey theory?
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Snowflake
04-22-2009, 07:57 AM
Do atheists really think creation just happened by chance?

A piece of flesh 'just' evolved into an auto-focusing lens for you to see with?

Every single part of your body that works in harmoney within itslef ans its environment came into existence because of some undesigned undeliberate occurence?

The Earth became the perfect climate for all its living things to survive in? And the perfect environment for them to disintergrate in?

The sun just happened? The moon just happened? Air just happened? A perfect ecological system just happened? To top it off the Earth sustained itself in perfect harmony within Universe for billions of years? All the conditions necessary for life just happened?

Within your mind you think you think logically and act upon that logic yet at times even with your thinking brain human logic is flawed. Yet you think a perfect Creation came into existence without the intelligence of a Higher Being? Can you create something and sustain it without 'thinking'?


You accept government, education, health, business, and legal systems require logical thinking to run smoothly. You accept they are sustained by strict rules and regulations without which they'd become corrupted. Yet you believe there is no one behind your creation and the laws that allow you to survive? Laws by which the Earth has survived with its perfect living conditions for you? Laws by which the Earth exists in harmony within the Universe. The whole vast Creation just happened? Perfection and order just happened? What you don't get is that even if you believe nature is responsible for everything then you have to ask yourself nature makes sense, it has reasons. And reasons don't happen by chance. There is purpose behind a reason.


Nature gave you the limbs, organs, senses to survive on earth. It gave human beings, plants and animals the ability to adapt to their environment. From the tinest organism to the largest planet, it gave everything the perfect conditions for them to exist in. Even the staunchest of atheists cannot deny nature.

But despite your acceptence of nature your thinking is limited. If you believe in nature, you know nature itself is nothing but a set of laws. Laws do not just happen but are created for a purpose. Although it's impossible for the human mind to comprehend and understand the complexity of these Laws, you can get some idea by just imagining that the very same law 'nature' governs the tiniest cell to the whole Universe.

And yet you believe that 'nature' just happened? You can't deny that nature doesnt have a reason, a task, a responsibility. Yet you don't see for something to have a reason there is 'thinking' behind it. Nature is staring at you in the face. If it were possible, and you could stare nature in the eye, you wouldn't be able to tell it, it just happened. If you did, you'd be admitting that YOU are nothing as if the laws that govern your existence are nothing but chance, then how can you have any value? Flukes have no value right? You're equal to lower life forms. You're just a product of chance. There is no reason for your existence except being a part of the food chain. That is how you have defined yourself!

Do ask yourself, are you that worthless that other than that you have no reason to be here? A reason beyond what you currently comprehend?
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burdenofbeing
04-22-2009, 10:51 AM
Personally, I can easily contemplate everything you have said. They all makes sense from an atheist perspective. These are really old arguments btw, and almost everything had already been said by both sides.

It's like an equation where the result is x^2=4 and thus x can be either -2 or 2.

That said, as a muslim, do you think there will EVER be evident proof that we are created?
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Joe98
04-22-2009, 12:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^
Do you believe we are all children of Adam and Eve or the whole monkey theory?

Both options are wrong.


The correct option is the third option - evolution.

-
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Joe98
04-22-2009, 12:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
Do atheists really think creation just happened by chance?


Only 1 planet in 10 billion known planets can sustain life.

The odds of the thing happening is 1 in 10 billion - and the thing happened.

If any god made the earth he would have made other planets with life so they could all worship him.

And then he would be so busy visiting them all he would have no time to visit the earth to give us annual report cards...............

-
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BoredAgnostic
04-22-2009, 09:26 PM
I'm not happy with my current state of nonbelief. I think some theists tend to have a really narrow scope of vision..it's like...take a step back...and you have a multitude of different religions claiming their superiority and trueness and their religious adherents are passionate believers...so it's like you're being pulled in every direction...then not only that, but all the stories that don't seem plausible but you're expected to believe. I mean it just boggles my mind that theists think atheists/agnostics/nonbelievers would rather burn in some type of fiery torment or whatever punishment for a indeterminate length of time, then submit to their God(s)...I mean I really don't understand that.
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Tony
04-22-2009, 09:34 PM
[QUOTE=Pygoscelis;1127000]I would flip this completely on its head.

Happy people don't need Gods.

Its the people who go through hard times, death of a family member, tragic event, etc that tend to need to reach out for the comforts of religion. Can't accept your father died? Tell yourself "he's in a better place now". Afraid of death or having a tough life? Tell yourself the next life will be so much nicer. Afraid of the world around you? Tell yourself God is in control and is looking out for you.

I respectfully disagree, I find keeping my covenant with Allah most difficult when going through a hard time, however it is very comforting to know that children such as those murdered in Gaza will be in the highest heaven. I think people of all emotional states etc can be religious or not and that belief in God is a much deeper need than a crutch on which to lean. I have read that people who own pets do so to make up for a flawed personality trait, who knows. Peace
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BoredAgnostic
04-22-2009, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
Do atheists really think creation just happened by chance?
My answer to that is I just don't know. And lets say some higher power set the Universe in motion..does that necessarily mean it was the God as described in your specific scripture? Well...being a Muslim your answer would probably be yes? Ask a Hindu, Shintoist, Christian, Pagan, etc and their answer would most likely be yes as well...
About purpose...right now I find purpose in the relative things that give meaning to my life...if after this short life..it all ends...then oh well? Nothing you can do about. I don't see much point/purpose in worshiping a God for all of eternity, but if that's something I would have to do to avoid being tortured in some Hellfire, then I'd do it in a heartbeat.
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Sahabiyaat
04-22-2009, 09:43 PM
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1125206

See above my post on the Atman project, and even go read up on it.


Anybody who does not believe in God,cannot be happy.He only believes he is, according to Ken Wilber, which suprisingly reflects exactly what Islam says.:)

Man is in constant search of God,he is afraid of death, so he kills others in order to survive.Man is in need of God, and subconciously seeks God in everything, whether doing good or bad.He tries to find God, or rather the attributes of God, in everything, in money, in power, in fame, he even calls himself God! (as some new age spiritualitues propogate),in a vain attempt to satisfy his inherent thirst to be at one with the 'ultimate reality' (God), or as wilber calls him 'Atman'.He buys lots of things to comfort himself, but really he is trying to comfort his suffering soul, he is using substitue gratifications, to reach God, but seeing as they are substitues, they fail him, and being the stupid man he is, he hoards more and more substitues,each one fails to please him, until ofcourse he uses his brain and realises there is nothing greater than God.


Anything and everything you do, whether it be a devout follower, or an atheist who decided one sunny day on a hill that there is no God, you ARE searching for God.

:w:
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BoredAgnostic
04-23-2009, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1125206

See above my post on the Atman project, and even go read up on it.


Anybody who does not believe in God,cannot be happy.He only believes he is, according to Ken Wilber, which suprisingly reflects exactly what Islam says.:)

Man is in constant search of God,he is afraid of death, so he kills others in order to survive.Man is in need of God, and subconciously seeks God in everything, whether doing good or bad.He tries to find God, or rather the attributes of God, in everything, in money, in power, in fame, he even calls himself God! (as some new age spiritualitues propogate),in a vain attempt to satisfy his inherent thirst to be at one with the 'ultimate reality' (God), or as wilber calls him 'Atman'.He buys lots of things to comfort himself, but really he is trying to comfort his suffering soul, he is using substitue gratifications, to reach God, but seeing as they are substitues, they fail him, and being the stupid man he is, he hoards more and more substitues,each one fails to please him, until ofcourse he uses his brain and realises there is nothing greater than God.


Anything and everything you do, whether it be a devout follower, or an atheist who decided one sunny day on a hill that there is no God, you ARE searching for God.

:w:
It's not rocket science to know that a vast majority of people are going to wonder and reflect on how we got here and our purpose in this life. We usually fear the unknown, and crave for more then what we have-whether it is material possessions, our life span, knowledge, power etc. In any case that statement by Mr. Wilber could be easily flipped around.
What about all the unhappy believers out there? It must be, in my opinion, pretty miserable to believe that there are going to massive amounts of people, including possible close family and friends, doomed to hellfire.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 01:28 AM
well to be honest i will not be a friend with a non believer i will respect them and be kind to them (IN HOPE THE WILL COME TO THE TRUTH) but get close to them or to love them is impossible to me and family as well i cant love a brother sister or even my mother if she or he is a rejector of the truth or enemies who deny GOD so how can i love WHAT im saying is how can i love God and them AT SAME TIME this is hypocrisy now i said i would care for them how do you care about someone by calling them to the right way you know what kind of love is this if i know that those beloved family members are doing bad and will go to Hell while i am keeping silent without making any efforts to save them by guiding them to the right way? but i can try to help them save them but if they are insisting not to follow the right way then they will pay for their choice i will not feel bad or have mercy on them but i will be happy why you ask because i tried and i will get my reward inshallah and inshallah i have except the hellfire Hope you understand :)
I ONLY LOVE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH CARE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH GIVE AND WITH HOLD FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH EVERYTHING I DO INSHALLAH WILL BE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH
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Sahabiyaat
04-23-2009, 10:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BoredAgnostic
It's not rocket science to know that a vast majority of people are going to wonder and reflect on how we got here and our purpose in this life.
yes, thats you searching for God.

We usually fear the unknown, and crave for more then what we have-whether it is material possessions, our life span, knowledge, power etc.
searching for God.

In any case that statement by Mr. Wilber could be easily flipped around
.

oh really, u r a clever thing arent you :D

What about all the unhappy believers out there?
if you dont believe in God, you cannot be truly happy.If you do and are still unhappy, this unhappiness is not the same as the latter. The believers unhappiness and the disbelievers unhappiness are two different things.

It must be, in my opinion, pretty miserable to believe that there are going to massive amounts of people, including possible close family and friends, doomed to hellfire
You have been informed of what is to come.you have chosen to deny it.simple. I know,its pretty miserable, but only if you dont do something about it.
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burdenofbeing
04-23-2009, 11:07 AM
the most depressing thing about believing, especially in Islam, is that it is a lot of responsibility.
the limited world life as a seed to an infinite afterlife is something super heavy.
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memories
04-23-2009, 02:03 PM
When you live into the world you can if you want ignore the existence of god, whatever the religion is, religion was created by man as a way of awnsering there fear on the unknown, but amidst the things man added to every religion, one thing is certain, the existence of god.when you read the bible or coran or whatever you need to read between the lines, not take it to the first lvl as a child,such as : _why dosent god come down here_::
so put not to much egs in the religion basket, instead, pivilege your relation with god, and remember, violence is not the way god wants for his creatures, that is what i think.
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Gator
04-23-2009, 02:17 PM
Came across this on youtube. A Christian missionary in South America lives with a tribe that has no creation myth. Found it interesting and thought of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr3q6Cid1po
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AntiKarateKid
04-23-2009, 02:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
Came across this on youtube. A Christian missionary in South America lives with a tribe that has no creation myth. Found it interesting and thought of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr3q6Cid1po
Who is to say they didn't have it once, a long time ago, but abandoned it. Many tribes there don't have a very long memory into the past. Usually around 12 generations backwards.

This tribe seems to be the exception and not the rule.
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Gator
04-23-2009, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Who is to say they didn't have it once, a long time ago, but abandoned it. Many tribes there don't have a very long memory into the past. Usually around 12 generations backwards.
Maybe, doesn't say. Its just mentioned that they don't now.

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
This tribe seems to be the exception and not the rule.
Yeah, I was surprised too. I was expecting some kind of primitive story or something.
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memories
04-23-2009, 02:27 PM
this quote expresses my thoughts:
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
(Albert Einstein, Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)
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memories
04-23-2009, 02:33 PM
and this one about the first lvl at wich ppl can take god :
I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature. (Albert Einstein, The World as I See It)
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Sahabiyaat
04-23-2009, 07:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
the most depressing thing about believing, especially in Islam, is that it is a lot of responsibility.
the limited world life as a seed to an infinite afterlife is something super heavy.
yup,thats bcuz silly old man took on the responsibility when even the heavens and earth refused to bear the burden :)
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Hamayun
04-23-2009, 07:45 PM
Great debate.

But Brother Umar I would like to say I think AoP is not interested in your Dawah. I think you may be wasting your breath.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Great debate.

But Brother Umar I would like to say I think AoP is not interested in your Dawah. I think you may be wasting your breath.
Jazak Allahu khayr akhi i had that feeling but Allah knows best :)
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 09:26 PM
Elo again all, so where were we last time I was in this thread? Where are ya'll now?
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Uthman
04-23-2009, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Where are ya'll now?
Warrington, England. :D
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Great debate.

But Brother Umar I would like to say I think AoP is not interested in your Dawah. I think you may be wasting your breath.
Thanks and thanks I think but what exactly is Dawah? Drawing a blank.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Thanks and thanks I think but what exactly is Dawah? Drawing a blank.
Dawah is calling people to ALLAH to islam to the truth
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Dawah is calling people to ALLAH to islam to the truth
ohh well in that case it does not bother me too much. It is meant to be a compliment/favor of sorts, it could be worse, and I am on your "turf" so I open myself up to it by posting here.

How would you define if I am interested?
Peace
Mick
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Yanal
04-26-2009, 05:39 PM
:sl:
Why would a happy person be an atheist?
A: no happy person who have a religion would even get the doubts of being an atheist,why because if we are happy we think it's because of our god and religion we are practicing.Thus we would never have the doubts ourselves to become an atheist but the devil might try(sorry will try),but religion is stronger then non religions.
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BoredAgnostic
04-27-2009, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
yes, thats you searching for God.

searching for God.

.

oh really, u r a clever thing arent you :D


if you dont believe in God, you cannot be truly happy.If you do and are still unhappy, this unhappiness is not the same as the latter. The believers unhappiness and the disbelievers unhappiness are two different things.



You have been informed of what is to come.you have chosen to deny it.simple. I know,its pretty miserable, but only if you dont do something about it.
I've been informed on a great deal of things, does that mean its all 100% true? I'm not "denying" anything, I hold the possibility that Islam or any other type of religion could be the correct one........at this point I just don't know and I'm not going to say I believe that this religion is 100% valid just to avoid people telling me I'm just denying it or destined to Hellfire or that I'm a God-hater or yada yada yada. And if I do become a Muslim, I still couldn't even begin to imagine most of my family members/friends being tormented in Hellfire..and no...repeatedly telling myself "its all their fault that they should of believed and that they deserve Hellfire" won't comfort me in the least...maybe it's enough for some believers...I don't know.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-27-2009, 03:07 AM
Atheist are u happy yet we are the ones who are fine with living just one life.
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Joe98
04-27-2009, 06:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I am disapointed in you.

There is no need to be disappointed, you misunderstood.

From the point of view of muslims, god knows what is in my heart.

From the point of view of muslims, god knows that I know, there is no celestial tea pot and therefore god will not make me burn in hell - rather, from the point of view of muslms, I will go to paradise.

And, from the point of view of muslims they cannot convert me and therefore fom the point of view of muslims they [might] be punished for failing to do so and therefore, from the point of view of muslims I get to paradise first!

-
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burdenofbeing
04-27-2009, 01:20 PM
^uh, no.
apparently you know jack about muslims' POV.
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Pygoscelis
04-27-2009, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
:sl:
Why would a happy person be an atheist?
A: no happy person who have a religion would even get the doubts of being an atheist,why because if we are happy we think it's because of our god and religion we are practicing.Thus we would never have the doubts ourselves to become an atheist but the devil might try(sorry will try),but religion is stronger then non religions.
Few people become atheists because of emotion, be it happiness or sadness. Emotional conversion is FAR more a to religion rather than away from religion experience. Though many apostates from religion get a feeling of freedom and enhanced individuality, happiness and sadness really don't play much of a role to most of us.
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Muezzin
04-27-2009, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
this quote expresses my thoughts:
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
(Albert Einstein, Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)
Neither can I. It's just when you say 'God works in mysterious ways', certain people don't believe it. Go figure.
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جوري
04-27-2009, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98

From the point of view of muslims, god knows what is in my heart.
indeed...
From the point of view of muslims, god knows that I know, there is no celestial tea pot and therefore god will not make me burn in hell
Celestial tea pots and rotting in hell are as harmonious as herring on a tandem bike.. perhaps you can gather your thoughts together so they are comprehensible

- rather, from the point of view of muslms, I will go to paradise.
How is that? Given that even Muslims don't know whether or not they'll end up in paradise?

And, from the point of view of muslims they cannot convert me and therefore fom the point of view of muslims they [might] be punished for failing to do so and therefore, from the point of view of muslims I get to paradise first!
Wrong again, I don't think anyone gives a fig what becomes of you!

all the best
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جوري
04-27-2009, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
When you live into the world you can if you want ignore the existence of god,
I don't see how it is possible? given as an example how much time atheists seem to spend on an Islamic or religious forums!

whatever the religion is, religion was created by man as a way of awnsering there fear on the unknown,
When you make an emphatic statement as such, one expects some sort of supporting evidence to back it up? I expect that you have spent a great deal of time to the study of theology and ready to defend your thesis?

but amidst the things man added to every religion, one thing is certain, the existence of god.
Not true.. Buddhism, Scientology are alleged 'religions' where a God doesn't play any role.. thus leads me to believe that you are not the authority when it comes to religion as you'd like to have us believe...
when you read the bible or coran or whatever you need to read between the lines, not take it to the first lvl as a child,such as : _why dosent god come down here_::
What does that line mean? care to elaborate?

so put not to much egs in the religion basket, instead, pivilege your relation with god, and remember, violence is not the way god wants for his creatures, that is what i think.
Thanks for parting on such a wise note...

all the best!
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-04-2009, 03:16 AM
Why are atheist happy with only living this one short life? You theist are unhappy and need a sky daddy to give you a second life.
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Uthman
05-04-2009, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Why are atheist happy with only living this one short life? You theist are unhappy and need a sky daddy to give you a second life.
I don't know whether you were joking Mick, but I don't believe what I believe just because I want to. I genuinely believe it to be true!
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-04-2009, 01:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I don't know whether you were joking Mick, but I don't believe what I believe just because I want to. I genuinely believe it to be true!
I think you missed my point. Atheist are happy with one life, and one life only. Why, because we are happy.
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Vito
05-04-2009, 02:27 PM
What about atheists who commit suicide to just end it all? Doesn't sound like they were too happy to me. I don't think its safe to speak for all people whether it be people of religion or not. You say we theists are unhappy which is our reason for needing a second life by our "sky daddy"? Religion isn't tying me down and I'm very happy. Do I not count?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-04-2009, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by -Kai-
What about atheists who commit suicide to just end it all? Doesn't sound like they were too happy to me. I don't think its safe to speak for all people whether it be people of religion or not. You say we theists are unhappy which is our reason for needing a second life by our "sky daddy"? Religion isn't tying me down and I'm very happy. Do I not count?
This thread started off with sweeping comments. My opinion is some people are happy and some are not....that is all.
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Hamayun
05-04-2009, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Why are atheist happy with only living this one short life? You theist are unhappy and need a sky daddy to give you a second life.
That... is the worst stereotype I have ever heard to say the least... :thumbs_do

Contrary to your ignorant theory about "theists" :rollseyes the reason why we believe in a "Sky Daddy" is because it goes against our common sense to even comprehend the universe originating without the help of our beloved "Sky Daddy".

I know there are many (everchanging) theories/excuses put forward for the origin of our universe by "scientists" but quite frankly my dear it just doesn't cut it for us.

Its good to know you are happy in your beliefs :) but I sincerely doubt you could even begin to understand the inner peace we "Theists" feel.

We didn't create God to satisfy our imagination... rather it is physically impossible for us to deny his existence.

Toodle pip :)
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AntiKarateKid
05-05-2009, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Why are atheist happy with only living this one short life? You theist are unhappy and need a sky daddy to give you a second life.
We're unhappy? Last time I went to the mosque my brothers greeted me with a smile.

Honestly, I hope atheists don't think too deeply about the world. I'd hate to think of myself as just a bag of atoms and chemical reactions with no higher purpose other than whatever pleases me (releases endorphins into my bloodstream). Let's not even touch the topic of purpose in the grand scheme of things which is a joke in a sterile uncaring universe.

The clock is ticking. Better get as much done as you can because the atheistic mentality is haunted by the simple adage:

From dust to dust...
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Pygoscelis
05-06-2009, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
That... is the worst stereotype I have ever heard to say the least... :thumbs_do

Contrary to your ignorant theory about "theists" :rollseyes the reason why we believe in a "Sky Daddy" is because it goes against our common sense to even comprehend the universe originating without the help of our beloved "Sky Daddy".

I know there are many (everchanging) theories/excuses put forward for the origin of our universe by "scientists" but quite frankly my dear it just doesn't cut it for us.

Its good to know you are happy in your beliefs :) but I sincerely doubt you could even begin to understand the inner peace we "Theists" feel.

We didn't create God to satisfy our imagination... rather it is physically impossible for us to deny his existence.

Toodle pip :)
God of the gaps. Classic.
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AntiKarateKid
05-06-2009, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
God of the gaps. Classic.
This coming from a person who's fellow atheists say "God didn't stop X tragedy therefore God doesn't exist." Classic.
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Hamayun
05-06-2009, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
God of the gaps. Classic.
Is that the best you can come up with?

Obviously anyone with a differing opinion to yours must be insane right?

As ludacris as you may find other peoples opinions they are no less valuable than yours.

Or are you one of those people who think they know best?

Always remember... Convincing yourself doesn't win an argument.

si non te veo feliche morte :rollseyes
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Pygoscelis
05-07-2009, 04:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Is that the best you can come up with?

Obviously anyone with a differing opinion to yours must be insane right?

As ludacris as you may find other peoples opinions they are no less valuable than yours.

Or are you one of those people who think they know best?

Always remember... Convincing yourself doesn't win an argument.

si non te veo feliche morte :rollseyes
Nice straw man.

Do you know what "god of the gaps" refers to?

For that matter, do you know what a "straw man" is?
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glo
05-07-2009, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Nice straw man.

Do you know what "god of the gaps" refers to?

For that matter, do you know what a "straw man" is?
It's either one of those



... or it's 'an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.'
(Courtesy of Wikipedia)

Peace :)
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Hamayun
05-08-2009, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Nice straw man.

Do you know what "god of the gaps" refers to?

For that matter, do you know what a "straw man" is?
I don't have time for your one liners. I know what a "straw man" is, I know what "God of the Gaps" is and fortunately I also know what a "red herring" is. You have three choices:

1. Either respect my opinon and admit that you could be wrong... and I could be right...

OR

2. Prove God does not exist beyond any doubts

OR

3. If you can not prove the above then please don't bother replying to my post because I am not interested the same old over and over...

Tot ziens
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memories
05-09-2009, 05:32 AM
I know many people, some of my friends, that live life as if their wasen't any after life, they always tell me that you have to ''profit of life to the fullest'' they call the idea of god absurd, they live driven by their passions, their needs regardless, and have very little principle, and overall one could say they appear happy, they are living life, I have lived as such until very recently until my 18th birthday (im am 19 now) and I was a happy man! but something was missing... Now I rejoice in the faith I have in god! Most of these people are in darkness, but light will come to them, in time, as I has came to me!
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-10-2009, 04:02 PM
Hamayun, the burden of proff is on you, not the atheist.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-10-2009, 04:03 PM
Can you miss what you don' know/belive is their?
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Muezzin
05-10-2009, 04:43 PM
I think belief in the existence of God is a very personal matter, that doesn't really have anything to do with a person's level of happiness. Stating that it does invites... well, not constructive debate.

Case in point:

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I would flip this completely on its head.

Happy people don't need Gods.

Its the people who go through hard times, death of a family member, tragic event, etc that tend to need to reach out for the comforts of religion. Can't accept your father died? Tell yourself "he's in a better place now". Afraid of death or having a tough life? Tell yourself the next life will be so much nicer. Afraid of the world around you? Tell yourself God is in control and is looking out for you.

Those are the bulk of the converts I've met.

Of course most religious people were programmed with it from birth, so we can't really look to them on this.
If you really believe all that...

You're an idiot.

Unless I'm a freak for really, wanting, needing to pray and give thanks when I feel truly jubilant, and not really praying as a first resort in a tragedy, but rather trying to work myself through it practically, and then pray as my way of life requires.

Which box of yours do I fit in?
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memories
05-11-2009, 12:12 AM
I think their is many happy atheists, They accept the world as it is and the fact that they beleive they are beasts just like every othe living life forms on this planet.

They view religion as an answer to things that humans cant explain and as a human response to the fear of death, they also live drivin by their passions etc, wich is wholly compatible with many psycological theories for example: behaviorism.

They are also content with living one life and dont need a god/many to explain hardships or happy events, they rather bring it back to themselves instead of praising god, so yes, atheists can be happy people!

Here is a short poetic text I find a propos.

''Do not pass by my epitaph, traveler.
But having stopped, listen and learn, then go your way.
There is no boat in Hades, no ferryman Charon,
No caretaker Aiakos, no dog Cerberus.
All we who are dead below
Have become bones and ashes, but nothing else.
I have spoken to you honestly, go on, traveler,
Lest even while dead I seem loquacious to you.''

This I beleive express the fundamental view of most atheists.

Regards
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-11-2009, 01:05 AM
Thanks Mem
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AntiKarateKid
05-11-2009, 01:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
I think their is many happy atheists, They accept the world as it is and the fact that they beleive they are beasts just like every othe living life forms on this planet.

They view religion as an answer to things that humans cant explain and as a human response to the fear of death, they also live drivin by their passions etc, wich is wholly compatible with many psycological theories for example: behaviorism.

They are also content with living one life and dont need a god/many to explain hardships or happy events, they rather bring it back to themselves instead of praising god, so yes, atheists can be happy people!

Here is a short poetic text I find a propos.

''Do not pass by my epitaph, traveler.
But having stopped, listen and learn, then go your way.
There is no boat in Hades, no ferryman Charon,
No caretaker Aiakos, no dog Cerberus.
All we who are dead below
Have become bones and ashes, but nothing else.
I have spoken to you honestly, go on, traveler,
Lest even while dead I seem loquacious to you.''

This I beleive express the fundamental view of most atheists.

Regards

You use a sad atheist poem in a post asserting happiness in atheism? :?
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memories
05-11-2009, 01:14 AM
No, I think it as a serene poem, accepting the condition of life wich is death. accepting it in a serene manner.
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Pygoscelis
05-11-2009, 02:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You're an idiot.
I try.

Unless I'm a freak for really, wanting, needing to pray and give thanks when I feel truly jubilant, and not really praying as a first resort in a tragedy, but rather trying to work myself through it practically, and then pray as my way of life requires.

Which box of yours do I fit in?
I repeat my point: Happy people don't need Gods.

Sure, many people have God and are happy, but you'd be hard pressed to find many happy atheists who turn into theists.

Read the literature about conversion and you'll find this to be true. Most converts are "missing something" in their lives which they find in religion. Its most often an emotional need that gets filled by the sense of purpose, security, community, etc that religion can provide. Happy atheists, who don't feel such an emotional void and have plenty of purpose, security, community etc, don't tend to convert.


Apostates in contrast tend to deconvert not due to any emotional gap or need but due to erosion or cold hard logic. In fact deconversion is often a painful process whereas conversion is a joyous one. Some apostates may even wind up less happy after the process, feeling the loss of the above. Being happy doesn't stop that apostacy. If anything it makes it easier. The question posed was do happy people ever become atheists. The answer is yes, more often than most here would think.

Also note that "being mad at god" doesn't make one an atheist. An atheist doesn't believe there is a god to be mad at.
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memories
05-11-2009, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I try.



I repeat my point: Happy people don't need Gods.

Sure, many people have God and are happy, but you'd be hard pressed to find many happy atheists who turn into theists.

Read the literature about conversion and you'll find this to be true. Most converts are "missing something" in their lives which they find in religion. Its most often an emotional need that gets filled.

Apostates in contrast tend to deconvert not due to any emotional gap or need but due to erosion or cold hard logic. In fact deconversion is often a painful process whereas conversion is a joyous one. Some apostates may even wind up less happy after the process, feeling that emotional void back.

But Happy atheists, who don't feel such an emotional void don't tend to convert.

That is my point.

According to thomas Hobbes everything we do comes from a need and is intended in serving your ''own good'', when you help someone? you are actually doing it for yourself for your own happiness, Its very egoistical, and I could go on with examples, why would this be different in the case of religion?

people beleive because they think it will bring them something good
thats it. just like we play games because they are fun, just like we eat because we are fufilling a need, everything comes from needs. no exception with religion, people beleive because they are unhappy and beleive it will make them ''happy'' and less fearfull of death etc.
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Joe98
05-11-2009, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
people beleive because they think it will bring them something good
thats it.

By that you are saying: You only believe because it will bring you something good and if you stopped believing, because by doing so it brought you something better, then you would stop believieng.

In other words you don't really believe.

Muslims on this forum have said many times "people need somethng to believe in and it might as well be god!"


-
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memories
05-11-2009, 02:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
By that you are saying: You only believe because it will bring you something good and if you stopped believing, because by doing so it brought you something better, then you would stop believieng.

In other words you don't really believe.

Muslims on this forum have said many times "people need somethng to believe in and it might as well be god!"


-
No, not quite, this quote gives a fine example of the way I beleive:

''I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.''
Albert Camus


Thats it in a nutshell.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-11-2009, 02:24 AM
hahah pascals wager.
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memories
05-11-2009, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
hahah pascals wager.
yes, if god exists then I win, if not well I loose, but I dont have anything to loose, Its as simple as that, the rest is excuse me the expression: Bullshiat!

all these tideous debates about the color of Sauls shorts, the multitude of other religions ''wether or not this person was on bad terms with this other person before jesus died'' its all pointless. there you have it.
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Pygoscelis
05-11-2009, 02:55 AM
The faults in pascal's wager are legion, but I'll just list a few. I've leave the rest to others.

1. Its a false dichotomy

There are nearly infinite possible Gods. So it isn't a this or that, its a this or this or this or this or this or this or this... or that. Picking one of those many Gods in the hope its the right one really doesn't put you much further ahead.

2. Gods tend to hate false gods

Ever notice that in most religious texts there are plenty of scolding parts about how you shouldn't worship false gods? Well seems to me that a given god is more likely to punish you for worshiping a false god than worshiping no god at all.

3. Can you really choose what you believe?

Try as I might I can't believe there is a tiny invisible man on my shoulder. Couldn't do it even if you offered me a million dollars. Could you?
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جوري
05-11-2009, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin


If you really believe all that...
He does!

You're an idiot.
He is!

The question remains, why does it take everyone else so long to figure out something that is apparent from one post?

:w:
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memories
05-11-2009, 02:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The faults in pascal's wager are legion, but I'll just list a few. I've leave the rest to others.

1. Its a false dichotomy

There are nearly infinite possible Gods. So it isn't a this or that, its a this or this or this or this or this or this or this... or that. Picking one of those many Gods in the hope its the right one really doesn't put you much further ahead.

2. Gods tend to hate false gods

Ever notice that in most religious texts there are plenty of scolding parts about how you shouldn't worship false gods? Well seems to me that a given god is more likely to punish you for worshiping a false god than worshiping no god at all.

3. Can you really choose what you believe?

Try as I might I can't believe there is a tiny invisible man on my shoulder. Couldn't do it even if you offered me a million dollars. Could you?
Yes, what you have stated here is true, But so far as Im concerned Il stick with the wager, Ah mon cher, what is their to loose?

Il take my chances. ;)
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Pygoscelis
05-11-2009, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
Ah mon cher, what is their to loose?
That depends entirely on the religion and what it demands of you I suppose.

I enjoy a beer now and then (Islam)
I like pork chops (Islam, Judaism)
I don't want my son to have his genitals mutilated at birth (Judaism)
I like that we have a blood bank (Jehova's Witness)
I like to shop on Sundays (Christianity)
I have friends who are homosexual and don't want them berated (All abrahamic religions)
I like to wear this or that (many religions)
If female, I like to do this or that (Islam)
I could go on...

:)

Of course if there's nothing you'd like to do that your religion doesn't forbid, then I can't say you lose much.
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memories
05-11-2009, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That depends entirely on the religion and what it demands of you I suppose.

I enjoy a beer now and then (Islam)
I like pork chops (Islam, Judaism)
I don't want my son to have his genitals mutilated at birth (Judaism)
I like that we have a blood bank (Jehova's Witness)
I like to shop on Sundays (Christianity)
I have friends who are homosexual and don't want them berated (All abrahamic religions)
I like to wear this or that (many religions)
If female, I like to do this or that (Islam)
I could go on...

:)

Of course if there's nothing you'd like to do that your religion doesn't forbid, then I can't say you lose much.
I had an argument with an indoctrinated woman earlier, she was stating that muslim women have lots of rights and can do whatever they want...

Regardless, what you say here is true.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-11-2009, 12:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
yes, if god exists then I win, if not well I loose, but I dont have anything to loose, Its as simple as that, the rest is excuse me the expression: Bullshiat!

all these tideous debates about the color of Sauls shorts, the multitude of other religions ''wether or not this person was on bad terms with this other person before jesus died'' its all pointless. there you have it.
How do you know which of the millions of man made gods to worship? How do you know which way to worship that god. If you choose wrong your screwed. Screwed more then an atheist. At least I did not worship another god....
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Muezzin
05-11-2009, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I repeat my point: Happy people don't need Gods.
You and I both know that is not a serious point, but a cute attempt at inverting a faulty premise. The result is just as faulty. Because with it, you cannot make sense of people like me.

Me, I don’t make it a priority to pray to God when I’m sad, when a tragedy has occurred. I make it a priority to act. Only when all actions have been exhausted, or are rendered impossible, do I pray for divine help in a tragedy.

It’s when I’m extremely happy that I personally make it a priority to give thanks to God.

I don’t fit it into any of your boxes.

Sure, many people have God and are happy,
Then why, when I feel ecstatic (like, say, passing an exam in an especially butt-whupping subject) do I feel the need to show my gratitude to God?

Please stop trying to tell others why they believe what they believe.

but you'd be hard pressed to find many happy atheists who turn into theists.

Read the literature about conversion and you'll find this to be true. Most converts are "missing something" in their lives which they find in religion. Its most often an emotional need that gets filled by the sense of purpose, security, community, etc that religion can provide. Happy atheists, who don't feel such an emotional void and have plenty of purpose, security, community etc, don't tend to convert.
Then aren’t you just proving the (faulty) premise’s point? That atheists who are unhappy become theists to pursue happiness?

I think the premise of this thread is faulty. I think belief in God is a personal matter not really dependent on ‘happiness’ or ‘sadness’ (however anyone plans to quantify those emotions).

Apostates in contrast tend to deconvert not due to any emotional gap or need but due to erosion or cold hard logic. In fact deconversion is often a painful process whereas conversion is a joyous one. Some apostates may even wind up less happy after the process, feeling the loss of the above.
Then apostates who ‘deconvert’ to atheism are unhappy, right? Which is again proving the faulty premise of this thread.

Being happy doesn't stop that apostacy. If anything it makes it easier.
This is where the premise shows its fallacy. Happiness or sadness are not truly the driving forces behind such decisions. It’s not that simple. As you well understand, but for some reason choose to oversimplify with slogans just as faulty as the ones you lampoon.

The question posed was do happy people ever become atheists. The answer is yes, more often than most here would think.
Like I said, I think the premise of this thread is faulty.

The only reason I responded to you is because there was a death in the family a few months ago, and your words ticked me off with how wrong and downright idiotic they were.

Also note that "being mad at god" doesn't make one an atheist. An atheist doesn't believe there is a god to be mad at.
It’s a silly theist who would be ‘mad at God’. What would be the point? It’s like a waterfall complaining about gravity. God doesn’t want us to whine at Him. The ethos of many religions is to act constructively in the circumstances. Not to deny pain,or mourning or loss. But just to get on with it.
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Hamayun
05-11-2009, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Hamayun, the burden of proff is on you, not the atheist.
The burden of proof would lie with me if I was on an Atheist forum trying to convince them what they believe is wrong...

I think you will find it is quite the opposite... :uuh:

You are an Atheist on an Islamic forum... therefore for any claims you make my dear, the burden of proof lies with you :muddlehea

Frankly I couldn't care less what you believe. If I really gave two hoots about convincing any Atheists I would be on an Atheist forum.

All I say is if you come here making any claims at least have the backbone to support your claims...

:w:
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Pygoscelis
05-11-2009, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You and I both know that is not a serious point, but a cute attempt at inverting a faulty premise.
It is a completely serious point. Hence the rest of the post. What premise?

you cannot make sense of people like me.
I have made no attempt to do so. That didn't seem to be the question posed by the thread. The question was "Has a happy person ever become atheist". Than answer is yes. Why do you think the question is "Explain Meuzzin"?

Then aren’t you just proving the (faulty) premise’s point? That atheists who are unhappy become theists to pursue happiness?
I still don't know what premise you are refering to.

Then apostates who ‘deconvert’ to atheism are unhappy, right? Which is again proving the faulty premise of this thread.
Some are yes. Specifically those who need the added senses of purpose, comfort etc I described.

This is where the premise shows its fallacy. Happiness or sadness are not truly the driving forces behind such decisions.
I beg to differ. Sadness (or more specifically feeling something is missing) has a lot to do with those who fall prey to religious preachers. Go read on it. I suggest "Amazing Conversions" by Bruce Hunsberger. It is an excellent study.

The only reason I responded to you is because there was a death in the family a few months ago, and your words ticked me off with how wrong and downright idiotic they were.
Note I'm not the one starting with the adhoms here. I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm not going to appologize for my input to the thread, which was directly on topic to the question asked. If you can't handle my opinion, that isn't my problem. And as for calling people's opinions idiotic... you should note I've always refrained from doing that while amongst all you folks who believe in what to me are fairy tales.
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Pygoscelis
05-11-2009, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
All I say is if you come here making any claims at least have the backbone to support your claims...
I agree with your sentiment here, but I missed his claim. What was his claim?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-11-2009, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
The burden of proof would lie with me if I was on an Atheist forum trying to convince them what they believe is wrong...

I think you will find it is quite the opposite... :uuh:

You are an Atheist on an Islamic forum... therefore for any claims you make my dear, the burden of proof lies with you :muddlehea

Frankly I couldn't care less what you believe. If I really gave two hoots about convincing any Atheists I would be on an Atheist forum.

All I say is if you come here making any claims at least have the backbone to support your claims...

:w:
Make a list of why you beilive in God. Make a list of your evidence and I'll see how much of it I can rip apart.
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Hamayun
05-12-2009, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I agree with your sentiment here, but I missed his claim. What was his claim?
Do I have to spell it out? Come on... you're not that naive surely... or are you? For a clue please red his post above.

format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Make a list of why you beilive in God. Make a list of your evidence and I'll see how much of it I can rip apart.
Did you not read my last post or have you got an impairment of some sort??? :muddlehea

To make it easier for you let me say it again...

I do not need to explain/justify/list anything for you. Rather you need to list your evidence for the Non-Existance of God. If I was on an Atheist forum trying to "enlighten" them I would do the same.

As far as your "ripping apart" is concerned... try google. You will be shocked to see whatever you are trying to "rip apart" has already been done to death and is fairly inconclusive.

Surely you are not under the illusion that you are going to enlighten us in some way? Are you? :uuh:
You really think billions of people will drop their faith thanks to your pearls of wisdom?

The sooner you snap out of that delusion the better.

Cheers
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-12-2009, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Do I have to spell it out? Come on... you're not that naive surely... or are you? For a clue please red his post above.



Did you not read my last post or have you got an impairment of some sort??? :muddlehea

To make it easier for you let me say it again...

I do not need to explain/justify/list anything for you. Rather you need to list your evidence for the Non-Existance of God. If I was on an Atheist forum trying to "enlighten" them I would do the same.

As far as your "ripping apart" is concerned... try google. You will be shocked to see whatever you are trying to "rip apart" has already been done to death and is fairly inconclusive.

Surely you are not under the illusion that you are going to enlighten us in some way? Are you? :uuh:
You really think billions of people will drop their faith thanks to your pearls of wisdom?

The sooner you snap out of that delusion the better.

Cheers
I can do that, but its hard to impossible if i do not know why you beilive.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-12-2009, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Do I have to spell it out? Come on... you're not that naive surely... or are you? For a clue please red his post above.



Did you not read my last post or have you got an impairment of some sort??? :muddlehea

To make it easier for you let me say it again...

I do not need to explain/justify/list anything for you. Rather you need to list your evidence for the Non-Existance of God. If I was on an Atheist forum trying to "enlighten" them I would do the same.

As far as your "ripping apart" is concerned... try google. You will be shocked to see whatever you are trying to "rip apart" has already been done to death and is fairly inconclusive.

Surely you are not under the illusion that you are going to enlighten us in some way? Are you? :uuh:
You really think billions of people will drop their faith thanks to your pearls of wisdom?

The sooner you snap out of that delusion the better.

Cheers
:eek:
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Muezzin
05-12-2009, 09:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It is a completely serious point.
Doesn't look like it...

Hence the rest of the post. What premise?
The premise that only unhappy people become athiests. Which you then inverted.

I have made no attempt to do so. That didn't seem to be the question posed by the thread. The question was "Has a happy person ever become atheist". Than answer is yes. Why do you think the question is "Explain Meuzzin"?
No, your premise is 'Happy people don't need God'. It falls apart when you have people like me who only feel they need God when they're extremely happy. The rest of the time they're just... average people. Not particularly happy or sad.

Some are yes. Specifically those who need the added senses of purpose, comfort etc I described.

I beg to differ. Sadness (or more specifically feeling something is missing) has a lot to do with those who fall prey to religious preachers. Go read on it. I suggest "Amazing Conversions" by Bruce Hunsberger. It is an excellent study.
Well, here, are you not proving this thread's implication that athiests are unhappy without God?

Note I'm not the one starting with the adhoms here. I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm not going to appologize for my input to the thread, which was directly on topic to the question asked.
I'm not asking for an apology. I'm asking you to look at what you said and consider if the sweeping statement I'm going to quote in bold further in this post is what you actually meant.

If you can't handle my opinion, that isn't my problem. And as for calling people's opinions idiotic... you should note I've always refrained from doing that while amongst all you folks who believe in what to me are fairy tales.
You don't think this 'Its the people who go through hard times, death of a family member, tragic event, etc that tend to need to reach out for the comforts of religion. Can't accept your father died? Tell yourself "he's in a better place now". Afraid of death or having a tough life? Tell yourself the next life will be so much nicer. Afraid of the world around you? Tell yourself God is in control and is looking out for you.' is an idiotic generalisation of people's motivations? Really?

Just calling 'em as I see 'em.

By the way:

I don't want my son to have his genitals mutilated at birth (Judaism)
Circumcision is not genital mutilation. I don't know if you were ignorant of the fact or just lying, but there's clarification anyway.
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Converse02
05-26-2009, 04:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
You are an Atheist on an Islamic forum... therefore for any claims you make my dear, the burden of proof lies with you :muddlehea
This is incorrect. The burden of proof always lies on the person making the claim something exists (the theist), as it is nearly impossible for a person to "prove" the non-existance of something.

You can't disprove invisible elves with magical powers who are determined in to hide themselves, just like you can't deprove God. However, the inability to disprove God or magical invisible elves doesn't led any more credence to their existance.
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Converse02
05-26-2009, 04:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
How come I have never heard an atheist say, I was outside on a beautiful summers day gazing at the greenery when I said to myself, "There is no God."
Because an atheist would simply enjoy the summer day and greenery. They wouldn't see a need to say "There is no God," because they don't believe God exists.

Seems like more often than not, atheism sprouts from negativity, while theism from positivity.
When something terrible happens to a person, we sometimes jest that people will "get religion." It's proof that theism often sprouts from negativity. People don't say they'll "get atheism."
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Hamayun
05-26-2009, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
it is nearly impossible for a person to "prove" the non-existance of something.
Erm... what kind of a rule is that?

I can prove my biscuit box does not contain any biscuits...

I can prove there are no feet in my shoes sitting on the shelf...

I can prove a ginger person does not exist in my family....

Have you got anything concrete to support your claim?
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Joe98
05-27-2009, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
I can prove my biscuit box does not contain any biscuits......

Can you prove that god is in you're house?

-
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Hamayun
05-27-2009, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Can you prove that god is in you're house?

-
If he was in my house then maybe... :?

Not sure what you are trying to say...
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Trumble
05-28-2009, 06:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Erm... what kind of a rule is that?

I can prove my biscuit box does not contain any biscuits...
But can you prove that a 10 metre-square red chocolate digestive doesn't exist, and never has existed anywhere?
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glo
05-28-2009, 06:58 AM
Is it me, or is this discussion becoming a little surreal? :?
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KAding
05-28-2009, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Is it me, or is this discussion becoming a little surreal? :?
I suspect to many atheists this whole forum and more in general belief in God is surreal :statisfie. You don't need this thread for that :).

Always fascinating to see how people can so fundamentally disagree with each other and as a consequence confuse the heck out of each other!
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Hamayun
05-29-2009, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
But can you prove that a 10 metre-square red chocolate digestive doesn't exist, and never has existed anywhere?

Yep :)

With enough money and man power why not?
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Trumble
05-30-2009, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Is it me, or is this discussion becoming a little surreal? :?
Maybe. :D

Sometimes, though, in discussing a philosophical point such examples serve to clarify rather than confuse.

Here, the basic claim being made by Converse02 was that

it is nearly impossible for a person to "prove" the non-existance of something
Hamayun disagrees, and introduced his empty biscuit box as an example of why. My response to that is that it is simply a special case, hence my own example. I find his response unconvincing as he qualified his "yep" with the proviso "with enough money and man power why not?". As the necessary thorough search of time and space for my hypothetical biscuit would seem to inevitably involve the use of money and manpower that would be "nearly impossible" to obtain and deploy, he fails to contest the original claim.
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Hamayun
05-31-2009, 12:12 AM
Three things:

1. If the 10 metre-square red chocolate digestive exists then we find the baker who made it.

2. If every human on the planet denies baking it then it doesn't exist in the present moment.

3. Even if it existed in the past then it would have still been baked by someone.

We all know it is impossible for a 10 metre-square red chocolate digestive to bake itself.

Let me ask you a question...

As an Atheist you obviously believe beyond any doubt that there is no creator. What evidence proved that to you with no room for doubt? Or is Atheism a faith too?
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Trumble
05-31-2009, 07:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Let me ask you a question...

As an Atheist you obviously believe beyond any doubt that there is no creator. What evidence proved that to you with no room for doubt? Or is Atheism a faith too?
'Obviously'? No, I don't believe there was/is a creator, but not 'beyond any doubt'. God is perhaps the most obvious example of what we have been talking about; how can you possibly prove He does not exist? Particularly when believers come up with ever more ingenious arguments as to why, if God does exist, He refuses to provide any evidence of same such as, perhaps, a personal appearance or two.

Atheism is a belief, not a 'faith'; it fits none of the definitions of that word whether you happen to be an atheist or not. Buddhism, however, involves faith even if isn't a faith. Faith, though, is founded on belief, and to me one (the efficacy of the Buddhist path to liberation and the end of suffering) is far more believable than the other (a creator God).
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Hamayun
05-31-2009, 11:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
'Obviously'? No, I don't believe there was/is a creator, but not 'beyond any doubt'. God is perhaps the most obvious example of what we have been talking about; how can you possibly prove He does not exist? Particularly when believers come up with ever more ingenious arguments as to why, if God does exist, He refuses to provide any evidence of same such as, perhaps, a personal appearance or two.

Atheism is a belief, not a 'faith'; it fits none of the definitions of that word whether you happen to be an atheist or not. Buddhism, however, involves faith even if isn't a faith. Faith, though, is founded on belief, and to me one (the efficacy of the Buddhist path to liberation and the end of suffering) is far more believable than the other (a creator God).
Thank you for your honest reply :)
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Pygoscelis
06-01-2009, 05:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Erm... what kind of a rule is that?

I can prove my biscuit box does not contain any biscuits...
Can you? What if the second you close the box the buiscuits magically appear but disappear when you open it again? What if they are magical invisible biscuits? What if you are dreaming and only think you are looking in the box?

I can prove there are no feet in my shoes sitting on the shelf...

I can prove a ginger person does not exist in my family....
No more than an atheist can prove there is no God. There are always little possibilities as ridiculus as they may seem to us.

Have you got anything concrete to support your claim?
It isn't his claim we are looking at. It is yours.
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qweretyq
06-02-2009, 03:08 AM
I have not read the entire discussion but would like to add this:

You cannot "prove" (the existence OR non existence) of something that is not physically measurable (or should I say alterable) by what we have today.
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Uthman
06-02-2009, 09:30 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by qweretyq
You cannot "prove" (the existence OR non existence) of something that is not physically measurable (or should I say alterable) by what we have today.
To conclusively prove the existence of Allah beyond any doubt, I believe that one needs an observable miracle. I believe that such a miracle does exist - the Qur'an. However, many people including Muslims don't understand how the Qur'an is a miracle and what is miraculous about it.
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Pygoscelis
06-02-2009, 03:00 PM
No, a "miracle" would not conclusiely prove the existence of Allah. Even the most amazing "miracle", say the moon splits in two one day and then joins together again, would prove nothing other than we don't understand how it happened and we can't explain it. It could be Allah. It could also be any number of other gods and any number of other forces or unknown phenomena.

The Koran is a with some rather vague statements that were later claimed as prophecy or godly knowledge. But you can get the same sort of thing from other religions, nostradamus, horoscopes, and "psychics".
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Uthman
06-02-2009, 03:10 PM
Greetings
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
No, a "miracle" would not conclusiely prove the existence of Allah. Even the most amazing "miracle", say the moon splits in two one day and then joins together again, would prove nothing other than we don't understand how it happened and we can't explain it. It could be Allah. It could also be any number of other gods and any number of other forces or unknown phenomena.
Agreed. What if somebody who had always been known for being honest and trustworthy, nicknamed Al-Ameen (the trustworthy) claimed to be a prophet of Allah and said that to prove it, they would perform a miracle by splitting the moon into two? If you then hypotheticaly witnessed them having done such a thing, would you consider them to be truthful?

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The Koran is a with some rather vague statements that were later claimed as prophecy or godly knowledge. But you can get the same sort of thing from other religions, nostradamus, horoscopes, and "psychics".
I don't consider these prophecies to provide the strongest proof of the miraculous nature of the Qur'an, although I believe that they do provide some evidence.
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Pygoscelis
06-03-2009, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
Greetings Agreed. What if somebody who had always been known for being honest and trustworthy, nicknamed Al-Ameen (the trustworthy) claimed to be a prophet of Allah and said that to prove it, they would perform a miracle by splitting the moon into two? If you then hypotheticaly witnessed them having done such a thing, would you consider them to be truthful?
I would be extremely suspicious and ponder alternative explanations, especially if he then claimed to speak for this Allah and demanded something from us. It would certainly be a alot more convincing than a story about such an event though.
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Wyatt
06-04-2009, 12:26 AM
This is another big stereotype of atheists religious people hold. Religious people are not necessarily the happiest in the world. Look at all the wars, destruction, death, discrimination in the name of God.

I was unhappy and especially hurt before I confidently lost God, but it was by religion that I was suffering. After I became an open atheist, I have become so involved in my own philosophy for life, I feel very honest to myself and could not be happier.
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AntiKarateKid
06-13-2009, 04:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Podarok
This is another big stereotype of atheists religious people hold. Religious people are not necessarily the happiest in the world. Look at all the wars, destruction, death, discrimination in the name of God.

I was unhappy and especially hurt before I confidently lost God, but it was by religion that I was suffering. After I became an open atheist, I have become so involved in my own philosophy for life, I feel very honest to myself and could not be happier.
99.9% of good deeds go unrecorded by history. There are countless billions of us. Those negative events you mentioned, first of all are just a drop in the ocean compared to the good true religiosity brings. Even disregarding the fact that the religious people fighting on those wars were fine with it but the people on the RECEIVING end of the war were the ones who were unhappy. We are not talking about the historical effects of religion or lack thereof.

Secondly, you logic is strange. How could a person's beliefs hurt them? It seems more likely that events in your life are what actually caused you suffering, which was heightened by the lack of ability for your religion to comfort you.

Third, you proved my point. Suffering led you to atheism.
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Wyatt
06-13-2009, 04:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
99.9% of good deeds go unrecorded by history. There are countless billions of us. Those negative events you mentioned, first of all are just a drop in the ocean compared to the good true religiosity brings. Even disregarding the fact that the religious people fighting on those wars were fine with it but the people on the RECEIVING end of the war were the ones who were unhappy. We are not talking about the historical effects of religion or lack thereof.
So, all the death, terror, discrimination and endless reign of corruption from religions throughout the ages is nothing compared to how many good deeds religions put out there? Don't you think if that were true, then there would be no question about it?

It's just easier and more effective to massively destroy than to massively build, I guess.

And, even if the religious are fine with fighting in the wars they started, everyone is affected- including the people not in that religion.

And it wasn't my beliefs of any religion that hurt me, so if that is what you mean by my logic, that's not the story... :X:X
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AntiKarateKid
06-13-2009, 04:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Podarok
So, all the death, terror, discrimination and endless reign of corruption from religions throughout the ages is nothing compared to how many good deeds religions put out there? Don't you think if that were true, then there would be no question about it?

It's just easier and more effective to massively destroy than to massively build, I guess.

And, even if the religious are fine with fighting in the wars they started, everyone is affected- including the people not in that religion.

And it wasn't my beliefs of any religion that hurt me, so if that is what you mean by my logic, that's not the story... :X:X
I'm afraid you misunderstood my post.

I said 99.9% of good deeds go unrecorded. It doesn't affect most people because they don't know about it in the first place.

Also, I never said it was your beliefs which hurt you neither was that my point. That is what you said.

"But it was by religion that I was suffering" <---- your words

That being said, there was a point in my life when I too was happy making up my own philosophies of the world. I was reading all the classic philosophy books and taking what I felt was true.

That stopped when I realized the sheer foolishness of it. Everyone has their own philosophy so... who's is actually the truth? Each new age had a new philosophy. Humans will never find the truth themselves because they are fundamentally handicapped by their own life experiences and passions. Only Allah, the one who set reality in motion, would be able to set the truth straight. Islamic theology has remained unchanged through time, which says alot to me about its truthfulness.
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Hyuio
06-20-2009, 02:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Allah is perfect. He is not like any of His creation. , and a muslim is NOT allowed to compare Allah with any of his creatures.
Evidence please.
Are you even aware how illogical and nonsensical that statement is? A perfect being cannot make an imperfect creation as that is a sign that it is imperfect itself.

No man can withstand the sight or presence of Allah (SWT) AND he got angels to do that
Evidence please.
Angels, mythological beings that rank along with sprites and fairies. Taken from christian myth and grafted onto islamic myth. No evidence that these beings even exist, along with spirits and fairies.

he give final report card A = Paradise F= HELL Pays you with all you desires=paradise pays you with pain and fire =hell
Evidence please.
Hell, again another myth taken from christian myth and incorporated into islamic mythology. The parent religion to christianity and islam, judaism, had no hell. the whole cocept was taken from pagan mythology.

Nope He created it He dont need to visit it it belongs to Him just like you do
Evidence please

I expect you will say the qur'an is evidence. Well I hate to burst your little faith bubble, but no it isn't. It is as about as realible as any other holy book. open to different interpretations, translation and errors.
Everyone knows that the universe was created by the FSM, may his noodley appendage touch you.
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Yanal
06-20-2009, 09:16 PM
Asalam alaykum.

I have posted numerous times on this thread. But I tend to explain more on this post. Here is a scenerio: A happy muslim who thanks Allah ,why would he be doubting his religion. He would instead thank it with more prayers because his life is going alhumdulilah so well.
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AntiKarateKid
06-20-2009, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hyuio
Evidence please.
Are you even aware how illogical and nonsensical that statement is? A perfect being cannot make an imperfect creation as that is a sign that it is imperfect itself.

Evidence please.
Angels, mythological beings that rank along with sprites and fairies. Taken from christian myth and grafted onto islamic myth. No evidence that these beings even exist, along with spirits and fairies.

Evidence please.
Hell, again another myth taken from christian myth and incorporated into islamic mythology. The parent religion to christianity and islam, judaism, had no hell. the whole cocept was taken from pagan mythology.

Evidence please

I expect you will say the qur'an is evidence. Well I hate to burst your little faith bubble, but no it isn't. It is as about as realible as any other holy book. open to different interpretations, translation and errors.
Everyone knows that the universe was created by the FSM, may his noodley appendage touch you.
I see you have come to this forum with a negative attitude. Condescension, sarcasm, and ignorance.

Fine then. Bring it.

1. What is an imperfection to you, is a perfection to another. And there is no reason why a perfect being cant willingly make something imperfect.

2. What we believe as evidence, you dismiss as myth, as evidenced from the beginning of your post. There is no evidence about what really happened before the big bang but we know it was there.

3. I need evidence that it came from pagan myth. So... Evidence please!

4. And of course you end your post with your opinion, sprinkled with mockery.

Now let me lay down some rules. If you wish to be taken seriously and not insulted. Learn to show respect when speaking with others. Or did you lose your manners when you lost your faith?

Moreover, stating "evidence please" when you load every sentence of yours with opinion and conspiracy theories about religion is laughable.

I'm trying to keep my tongue in check while typing this so please show some manners or else you'll just be dismissed as another angry atheist who thinks he has religion figured out when in actuality he knows less than even a braindead fundamentalist.
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aamirsaab
06-20-2009, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hyuio
Evidence please.
Are you even aware how illogical and nonsensical that statement is? A perfect being cannot make an imperfect creation as that is a sign that it is imperfect itself.
If the author of a book writes an evil character, is the author evil?

Evidence please.
Angels, mythological beings that rank along with sprites and fairies. Taken from christian myth and grafted onto islamic myth. No evidence that these beings even exist, along with spirits and fairies.
Existence of proof is not proof of existence. Do not play that game.

Evidence please

I expect you will say the qur'an is evidence. Well I hate to burst your little faith bubble, but no it isn't.
Theists already prove it soley on numbers game; 84% to 16%. What's population statistic of athiest? Something like 10% of current? Far as I am concerned, you got all the proof you need, plus several holy books.

So with that in mind, how about you give me a good reason, with evidence to suggest, why you are right as an athiest. Cus right now, this kind of debate favours thiests (thats me) - not athiest (which would be you). I have population stats (i.e reality, i.e 86% of global population) on my side; you got nothing, so you really need to start bringing stuff to the table before you dare question my religion.

It is as about as realible as any other holy book. open to different interpretations, translation and errors.
That's why you're supposed to read it in ARABIC (i.e it's purist form)

Statistics obtained from:
here, here and here
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AntiKarateKid
06-20-2009, 09:41 PM
I believe you meant "absence of proof is not proof of absence"? Or am I msitaken?
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aamirsaab
06-20-2009, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I believe you meant "absence of proof is not proof of absence"? Or am I msitaken?
Either or; point was had evidence been given, it would not be enough to actually prove the existence of something. Convince, maybe. Prove, no.
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Hyuio
06-20-2009, 11:31 PM
[QUOTE=AntiKarateKid;1172149]I see you have come to this forum with a negative attitude. Condescension, sarcasm, and ignorance.[/QUIOTE]
I ask for evidence for assertions and you take them as condescension, sarcasm, and ignorance. Touchy, aren't you?

Fine then. Bring it.

1. What is an imperfection to you, is a perfection to another. And there is no reason why a perfect being cant willingly make something imperfect.
How would a perfect being know what imperfection is? Simple question. Its very nature shows that it has no understanding of imperfection.

2. What we believe as evidence, you dismiss as myth, as evidenced from the beginning of your post. There is no evidence about what really happened before the big bang but we know it was there.
Yes we do, but you and me have no evidence whatsoever of what was before. I am willing to accept that, you aren't.

3. I need evidence that it came from pagan myth. So... Evidence please!
Here are three:
“The pyramid texts composed by the priests of Heliopolis for the tombs of the V Dynasty c.2400 BC show [were first historical record of an idea of heaven and hell] This invention of the hell/heaven sanction by the Egyptians has been of the highest significance in subsequent moral control, and in Egypt, as with most other societies, its function was to support the monarchy”
"A History of Sin" by Oliver Thomson, p66
Note that this predates even Judaism.

Hebrew.
“The word translated as "hell" in the New Testament comes from the Hebrew word "Gehenna". Gehenna meant "the valley of Hinnom", and was originally a particular valley outside Jerusalem, where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch (2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chron. 28:3;Jer. 32:35). In later Jewish literature Gehenna came to be associated with a place of torment and unquenchable fire that was to be the punishment for sinners. It was thought by many that lesser sinners might eventually be delivered from the fires of Gehenna, but by New Testament times punishment for sinners was deemed to be eternal.”
"Bible Facts" by Jenny Roberts
Hell in the Koran [3]

"The Koran refers to the seven heavens (17.46; 23.88; 41:11; 65:12), a notion also found in Chegiga 9.2. In the Koran, hell is said to have seven divisions or portals (15.44); in Zohar 2.150 we find the same description. These notions go back to old Indo-Iranian sources, because in both Hindu and Zoroastrian scriptures we find the seven creations and seven heavens. [...] In sura 43.76 we find reference to Malik as the keeper of hell who presides over the tortures of the ****ed; similarly the Jews talk of the Prince of Hell. Malik is obviously a corruption of the Fire God of the Ammonites, Molech, mentioned in Leviticus,1 Kings, and Jeremiah."
"Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq p48
My bold

4. And of course you end your post with your opinion, sprinkled with mockery.
The FSM is always good to try and lighten the mood.

Now let me lay down some rules. If you wish to be taken seriously and not insulted. Learn to show respect when speaking with others. Or did you lose your manners when you lost your faith?
I never had a faith to lose. My parents were liberal when it came to religion, although my father does identify himself as a christian.
As for respect, I will try, but I have noticed that the respect seems to only go one way for some people of faith based boards. I have seen muslims members on this borad threaten hell and eternal ****ation of non-belivers. Hardly respect. I will not do ad hom attacks, only your beliefs. To gain respects you must earn it, and as an atheist I have had very little from theists

Moreover, stating "evidence please" when you load every sentence of yours with opinion and conspiracy theories about religion is laughable.
All I ask for is evidence, how is that conspiracy and opinion? If I came on this board proclaiming that Amon-ra is the true god of creation, you would ask for evidence. It works both ways.

I'm trying to keep my tongue in check while typing this so please show some manners or else you'll just be dismissed as another angry atheist who thinks he has religion figured out when in actuality he knows less than even a braindead fundamentalist.
Glad you see fundies as braindead.:D
I am not an angry atheist, and I have quite a bit of knowledge of comparative religions and mythology. You have a tendency to be if you are an atheist, although I will admit that my knowledge of christianity is greater than islam. Christian are more anti-atheist than muslims, though I have come across some rather obnoxious muslims of other boards, but none that match a particular evangelical preacher. According to him muslims are all sons of satan. +o(
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Pygoscelis
06-21-2009, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Theists already prove it soley on numbers game; 84% to 16%. What's population statistic of athiest? Something like 10% of current? Far as I am concerned, you got all the proof you need, plus several holy books.
You are seriously going to base your argument on the ad populum fallacy?
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Pygoscelis
06-21-2009, 02:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Secondly, you logic is strange. How could a person's beliefs hurt them?
Is this a serious question? I can think of many beliefs that hurt the people holding them, in and out of religious context. You can not?
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AntiKarateKid
06-21-2009, 05:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Is this a serious question? I can think of many beliefs that hurt the people holding them, in and out of religious context. You can not?
Your beliefs cannot hurt you unless they work through some sort of event in your life. For example, a Muslim girl can't marry a non-muslim. This wont hurt her if she was never attracted to any non-muslims.
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Skye Exmarine
06-21-2009, 06:38 AM
probably not
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aamirsaab
06-21-2009, 09:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
You are seriously going to base your argument on the ad populum fallacy?
All I'm saying is, athiests are on the back foot in this argument to begin with. Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - it's 80:20 in our favour already. Athiests are the ones that need to do the convincing, not thiests.
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Charzhino
06-21-2009, 11:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
All I'm saying is, athiests are on the back foot in this argument to begin with. Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - it's 80:20 in our favour already. Athiests are the ones that need to do the convincing, not thiests.
Sorry if I have missed something but what is this 80:20 ratio?
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Hyuio
06-21-2009, 11:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
All I'm saying is, athiests are on the back foot in this argument to begin with. Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - it's 80:20 in our favour already. Athiests are the ones that need to do the convincing, not thiests.
Oh yes they do. Theists have made the claim that a god or gods exist. Now provide the relevant evidence to back up such and extrordinary claim. Burden of proof is on you, not the atheist. Argument from Popularity is a fallacious argument.
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aamirsaab
06-21-2009, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Charzhino
Sorry if I have missed something but what is this 80:20 ratio?
Population statistic of thiest vs athiest

format_quote Originally Posted by Hyuio
Oh yes they do. Theists have made the claim that a god or gods exist. Now provide the relevant evidence to back up such and extrordinary claim. Burden of proof is on you, not the atheist. Argument from Popularity is a fallacious argument.
You were asking evidence for God; yet you're the minority in this argument. 80% say yes He exists, 20% say no He doesn't. On that basis, you are on back-foot; you need to tell me why you go against the grain; not why I follow it.

Plus, your entire way of life (i.e athiesm) is being defined by mine (thiesm) anyway; so would you mind telling me why you deserve to ride on the back of MY gravy train and then demand I prove my beliefs to you!? Heck, by your rules stated above (thiests have to prove God), you would therefore HAVE to disprove God!

If you were agnostic, fine this wouldn't be a problem - but you're a staunch athiest, so that's why I have raised it.
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Pygoscelis
06-21-2009, 01:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You were asking evidence for God; yet you're the minority in this argument. 80% say yes He exists, 20% say no He doesn't. On that basis, you are on back-foot; you need to tell me why you go against the grain; not why I follow it.
You have made a non-falsifiable claim without evidence and then you lean on the ad populum fallacy and demand he falsify it?

Plus, your entire way of life (i.e athiesm) is being defined by mine (thiesm)
Atheism is not a way of life. It is an opinion on but one question.
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Pygoscelis
06-21-2009, 01:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Your beliefs cannot hurt you unless they work through some sort of event in your life.
Huh?

Certainly a belief that one can fly would be pretty dangerous :)

The beliefs instilled in many children of fire and brimstone fundamentalist christians terrify theml. I know a few people who are now atheists who grew up in such a condition and they found their fear of hell quite hurtful, especially when she started to have doubts were terrified of thinking for themselves rather than have their church think for them.
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aamirsaab
06-21-2009, 01:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
You have made a non-falsifiable claim without evidence and then you lean on the ad populum fallacy and demand he falsify it?
Then don't expect thiests to prove God whilst you ride happily on the back of their gravy train. Athiesm is the belief that God doesn't exist. Thiesm is the Belief he does; if it is for thiest to prove He does, then it is for athiest to prove He doesn't.

Atheism is not a way of life. It is an opinion on but one question.
Yeah and that opinion is what we are discussing. Bottom line is if thiests must prove God; athiests must disprove Him.

Since however, existence/absence of proof is not proof of existence/absence, I can never prove God. So asking me to is a bigger fallacy than the ad popullum. In which case we are back to square one. Wonderful discussion so far, huh?
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AntiKarateKid
06-21-2009, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Huh?

Certainly a belief that one can fly would be pretty dangerous :)

The beliefs instilled in many children of fire and brimstone fundamentalist christians terrify theml. I know a few people who are now atheists who grew up in such a condition and they found their fear of hell quite hurtful, especially when she started to have doubts were terrified of thinking for themselves rather than have their church think for them.
Hmm. Point taken.
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barrio79
06-26-2009, 01:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
All I'm saying is, athiests are on the back foot in this argument to begin with. Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - it's 80:20 in our favour already. Athiests are the ones that need to do the convincing, not thiests.
Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - says whom
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alcurad
06-26-2009, 01:35 AM
what is "existence" in the first place? in what ways does a creator Not exist?

and how do the laws of physics-as we call them- or less broadly the universe-parts which we can observe/theorize about- originate?

the athiest answer: they existed without need for god:thus they Are god. what is athiesm then but deification of nature/universe?

believing that what we experience, what we can measure is sufficient/all encompassing and enough to deny the existence of a creator is utterly unfounded on science, thus the atheist position lacks proof as much as the theist on this one.

^ the last bit is an overestimation, I might go into that later.
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جوري
06-26-2009, 02:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
what is "existence" in the first place? in what ways does a creator Not exist?

and how do the laws of physics-as we call them- or less broadly the universe-parts which we can observe/theorize about- originate?

the athiest answer: they existed without need for god:thus they Are god. what is athiesm then but deification of nature/universe?

believing that what we experience, what we can measure is sufficient/all encompassing and enough to deny the existence of a creator is utterly unfounded on science, thus the atheist position lacks proof as much as the theist on this one.

^ the last bit is an overestimation, I might go into that later.
:sl:

Good post..
indeed, I marvel of the atheist desire to put a burden of proof on theists..
they find themselves in a universe, yet have no scientifically verifiable method of proving how it came to be from unicellular goo to complex multi specied, multi-organ, well orchestrated, well coordinated, composites and compounds .. they come with a universal negative, and expecting us to forgo the natural default conclusion for an even lesser certainty!


:w:
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barrio79
06-26-2009, 03:01 AM
indeed, I marvel of the atheist desire to put a burden of proof on theists.

Actually atheists just live normal lives as normal people, theists on the other hand are extraordinary people who follow make believe beings and expect everyone else to make allowances for their odd behavior eg drowning each other in the Ganges, building illegally on land in other peoples countries and so on; because it’s being done in the name of one’s religious beliefs . That's ok, but if an average joe does it he/she gets arrested.


For the skeptic, any proof would be nice
for the believer, no proof is necessary.
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جوري
06-26-2009, 03:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barrio79

Actually atheists just live normal lives as normal people,
why is a 'normal' person so preoccupied with theists on a religious forum?


theists on the other hand are extraordinary people who follow make believe beings and expect everyone else to make allowances for their odd behavior eg drowning each other in the Ganges, building illegally on land in other peoples countries and so on; because it’s being done in the name of one’s religious beliefs . That's ok, but if an average joe does it he/she gets arrested.
I have no idea what this drivel means, and frankly I don't care, but again, I pose the question, if so ordinary, why waste so much of your time on an Islamic forum?

For the skeptic, any proof would be nice
for the believer, no proof is necessary.
Love that spin, it isn't very seductive, but I am sure has you and others fooled into considering yourselves worldly-wise!

all the best
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Pygoscelis
06-26-2009, 08:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
what is "existence" in the first place? in what ways does a creator Not exist?
Well Gods certainly do exist... at least as ideas within the minds of their believers.

the athiest answer: they existed without need for god:thus they Are god. what is athiesm then but deification of nature/universe?
You are creating a straw man. Why don't you let atheists tell you their answers instead of inventing answers to assign to them? I predict that if you do you will get many variant responses, because all atheism is, is the lack of belief in a god. Once you get past that and start asking how the universe came to be you're going to get many differing, competing, and conflicting ideas.

Some folks like myself will even be honest with you and admit they don't know (or in my case don't much care).

I certainly have never met an atheist who deifies nature.

believing that what we experience, what we can measure is sufficient/all encompassing and enough to deny the existence of a creator is utterly unfounded on science, thus the atheist position lacks proof as much as the theist on this one.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I take it you are refering to "strong atheists" - those who have the positive belief that there is no god, and not "weak atheists" - those who simply lack a belief in God? I take the position that we can not prove or disprove God, just like we can't prove or disprove the flying spagheti monster, the invisible pink unicorn, Bertrand Russel's celestial tea pot, etc. You can't disprove a non-falsifiable claim.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If an atheist goes around declaring that he is certain that no god can possibly exist, then the burden is on him to prove that claim. But not many atheists do that and I think you'll be hard pressed to find any who take that position here. On the other hand if the theist goes around declaring a certainty that god DOES exist, the burden is likewise on them to prove their claim. I think ALL (or nearly all) of you muslims and christians here fall into that position.
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Trumble
06-26-2009, 11:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
indeed, I marvel of the atheist desire to put a burden of proof on theists..
I don't really think the 'burden of proof' is an issue, is it? Or at least, if it is, it's time people found another one. Surely one thing we can all agree on is that the matter is unproveable either way, and looks likely to stay that way for a very long time.

Half of the trouble seems to be indicated by your next paragraph;

they come with a universal negative, and expecting us to forgo the natural default conclusion for an even lesser certainty!
God is not the 'natural default conclusion' unless you prejudge that He exists, which atheists obviously do not. And of course there isn't the slightest bit of scientific evidence for that conclusion, so criticising the alternative for absence of same seems rather odd. The 'natural default' for atheists would be that "no scientifically verifiable method of proving how it came to be from unicellular goo to complex multi specied, multi-organ, well orchestrated, well coordinated, composites and compounds" has been found yet. But mankind, science, and indeed philosophy are still young. Keep looking and we might find it. Commit the intellectual hara-kiri that is 'God of the gaps' and we never will.
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جوري
06-26-2009, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't really think the 'burden of proof' is an issue, is it? Or at least, if it is, it's time people found another one. Surely one thing we can all agree on is that the matter is unproveable either way, and looks likely to stay that way for a very long time.
Indeed.. but, that does seem like a matter that you should address the fellow atheist, not my person?

Half of the trouble seems to be indicated by your next paragraph;



God is not the 'natural default conclusion' unless you prejudge that He exists, which atheists obviously do not. And of course there isn't the slightest bit of scientific evidence for that conclusion, so criticising the alternative for absence of same seems rather odd. The 'natural default' for atheists would be that "no scientifically verifiable method of proving how it came to be from unicellular goo to complex multi specied, multi-organ, well orchestrated, well coordinated, composites and compounds" has been found yet. But mankind, science, and indeed philosophy are still young. Keep looking and we might find it. Commit the intellectual hara-kiri that is 'God of the gaps' and we never will.
No, it is Natural, and there is no pre-supposition...
natural when you come home to a cooked apple pie even with crusty burnt edges that someone baked it, that it didn't cook itself from objects in your fridge and cupboard, but one would be willing to sit for a winded story (for sheer amusement) of how it came to be rather than accept the obvious.

As for the "God of the Gaps'', well you (collectively) keep wasting a life time in search of it, but there is no point in bothering the rest of us with bromides of spaghetti monsters and whatnots.. (actually not you personally) as you seem to recognize certain truths.. like how far off we are from finding a permanent cure for the common cold, or some viable screening tests for deadly cancers (if not treatment) before we get all hyper-vigilant about unlocking the secrets of the universe, form, life or what happens thereafter; as they have remained obscure for millenniums and I imagine unless someone comes up with some ectoplasm and alternate plane device that so they shall remain.
scientists are humbled indeed as they understand their limitations, only fools think they have a grip on everything.


all the best
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Gubbleknucker
06-27-2009, 01:06 AM
I'm one of the happiest people I know...

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
How come I have never heard an atheist say, I was outside on a beautiful summers day gazing at the greenery when I said to myself, "There is no God."
.
I've done nearly exactly that. The idea that a god had anything to do with the crimson sunset would make it seem far less meaningful to me.
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Joe98
06-27-2009, 07:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

natural when you come home to a cooked apple pie even with crusty burnt edges that someone baked it, that it didn't cook itself from objects in your fridge and cupboard,

.....but one would be willing to sit for a winded story of how it came to be rather than accept the obvious.
Well everybody in my household denied baking the apple pie and next to it is a Holy Book with instructions and we too can accept the obvious.

......the apple pie was baked by God and he has left a set of instructions on how to lead a culinary life.

Peace
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جوري
06-27-2009, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Well everybody in my household denied baking the apple pie and next to it is a Holy Book with instructions and we too can accept the obvious.

......the apple pie was baked by God and he has left a set of instructions on how to lead a culinary life.

Peace
That was unintelligible to me-- I don't understand your point!

all the best
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Trumble
06-27-2009, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
That was unintelligible to me-- I don't understand your point!

all the best
Pity.. it's a very good one.

The point is that as everyone denied baking the pie clearly the only possible solution was the 'default' one; GOD had baked the pie. And not only had he baked it, he left a book of instructions so that in future His creations could bake their own pies. Of course, extending the metaphor, you could be 'scientific' and choose to continue your search for the phantom baker by asking the neighbours, your friends, or even checking police bulletins for any signs of a rogue baker at large. But, when it is 'obvious' the baker must be God, why bother?
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Tony
06-27-2009, 08:46 PM
what!!!!!!!! how did Allah become reprersented as a pie baker ? Sorry to dip into this thread but that is so disrespectful:raging:
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جوري
06-27-2009, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Pity.. it's a very good one.

The point is that as everyone denied baking the pie clearly the only possible solution was the 'default' one; GOD had baked the pie. And not only had he baked it, he left a book of instructions so that in future His creations could bake their own pies. Of course, extending the metaphor, you could be 'scientific' and choose to continue your search for the phantom baker by asking the neighbours, your friends, or even checking police bulletins for any signs of a rogue baker at large. But, when it is 'obvious' the baker must be God, why bother?

That is a complete non sequitur.. so it is a pity indeed as the spin has failed both of you miserably.. anyone can make a pie, and pies still don't appear ex nihilo from ingredients that just happen to be in existence .. not everyone actually I should say no one can or has created a human and the search has failed miserably! Try harder if you are 'going to bother'

all the best
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Gubbleknucker
06-27-2009, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
anyone can make a pie, and pies still don't appear ex nihilo.. not everyone actually I should say no one can create a human and humans don't appear [I]ex nihilo!
Anyone can make a human, too.

At least, almost any male and female.

I like Joe's comment very much. I don't have rep power though...imsad
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Muezzin
06-27-2009, 09:42 PM
Apple pie on one hand, the universe as we know it on the other.

Same thing?
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جوري
06-27-2009, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gubbleknucker
Anyone can make a human, too.

At least, almost any male and female.

I like Joe's comment very much. I don't have rep power though...imsad

does the term a ex nihilo mean anything to you? You can't really take credit for ordnance that you came ready equipped with .. 'finding it there' doesn't equate with creation... until you can account for how your Leydig's, Sertoli's cells, epididymis, vas deferens, ejaculatory ducts, pitituary, gonads etc etc all came together to a well orchestrated play integral for the human survival through no volition of your own can you come and tell me about how almost any male or female create a human from two cells!

all the best
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believeByHEART.
06-27-2009, 09:49 PM
ahh unintelligence does bother me much,

when he says no one can make a human he means making them, crafting them physically using the substances that make us..
your joke just made you very lame.

& i wont go scientifically into it either, i aint that brainy.. xD
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جوري
06-27-2009, 09:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Apple pie on one hand, the universe as we know it on the other.

Same thing?
for the simpleton mind apparently it is.. invoking logic has become a twisted simile!
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Muezzin
06-27-2009, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gubbleknucker
Anyone can make a human, too.

At least, almost any male and female.
Given that we're talking about creation ex nihilo here (i.e. making something from nothing), that's kind of shifting the goal posts.

Unless I've misunderstood the discussion in my brief scan.
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Hamayun
06-27-2009, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gubbleknucker
Anyone can make a human, too.

At least, almost any male and female.
Err... do you know the difference between Creation and Reproduction? :?

^o)
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Trumble
06-27-2009, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
That is a complete non sequitur.. so it is a pity indeed as the spin has failed both of you miserably.. anyone can make a pie, and pies still don't appear ex nihilo from ingredients that just happen to be in existence .. not everyone actually I should say no one can or has created a human and the search has failed miserably!
No, it isn't a "complete non sequitur" . It actually demolishes your point very effectively. Your bluster doesn't fool me, I'm afraid... although you might be fooling yourself. Your comprehension difficulties seem to originate with confusing a philosophical thought experiment with a real-world situation - one that was, in fact, introduced by yourself. In the experiment, 'anyone' has effectively been eliminated (it is a thought experiment, remember.. in the good ol' philosophical tradition of evil demons, inverted earths and beetles in boxes), thus presenting exactly the seeming ex nihilo situation (the essential point - you are making an unjustified ASSUMPTION) you describe.

Try harder if you are 'going to bother'
Excellent advice for you to follow! :)
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جوري
06-27-2009, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No, it isn't a "complete non sequitur"
it is indeed.

. It actually demolishes your point very effectively.
I don't see how at all?

Your bluster doesn't fool me, I'm afraid
Don't be so afraid if my bluster hasn't fooled you!
... although you might be fooling yourself.
The whole thing is of little importance to me!

Your comprehension difficulties seem to originate with confusing a philosophical thought experiment with a real-world situation
Sounds like an adequate assessment of your own hinges.

- one that was, in fact, introduced by yourself.
I am amused by how much time you've wasted on a verbose and ineffective introduction.. how deep must I dive before you make a point?
In the experiment, 'anyone' has effectively been eliminated (it is a thought experiment, remember.. in the good ol' philosophical tradition of evil demons, inverted earths and beetles in boxes), thus presenting exactly the seeming ex nihilo situation (the essential point - you are making an unjustified ASSUMPTION) you describe.
What the ha? It is much simpler than all of that homer-- let go of the orotund and follow simple logic...



Excellent advice for you to follow! :)
Again, no interest, I am not the one after a none-existing scientific explanation. Though once you cook one up, I am sure we'd love to hear it..

all the best
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Gubbleknucker
06-28-2009, 12:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Given that we're talking about creation ex nihilo here (i.e. making something from nothing), that's kind of shifting the goal posts.
Ok, then, why are the gods exempt from this "law"?
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Gubbleknucker
06-28-2009, 03:27 AM
I was just fortunate enough to witness the light of the setting sun landing upon the side of a thundercloud. As I looked up, my jaw fell. I compulsively threw my shoulders back and took a deep breath of the crisp air that had been washed clean by the rain. Upon exhalation, I said aloud, "There is no god."

As the crimson hues faded to purple, an arc of lighting streaked across the sky and fizzled out within the cloud, illuminating the darkening sky. This was the finale of the brilliant contrast between light and dark taking place on the vaporous cliff up above me, and shortly thereafter a fine mist of rain began to fall, cooling my upturned face.
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Muezzin
06-28-2009, 08:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Well everybody in my household denied baking the apple pie and next to it is a Holy Book with instructions and we too can accept the obvious.

......the apple pie was baked by God and he has left a set of instructions on how to lead a culinary life.

Peace
This example fails for a few reasons.

1) In the circumstances, not even theists would claim the apple pie was made direcly by God.

2) If you're using an apple pie as an analogy for the universe at large, you're presupposing the latter was in fact created. Which contradicts the atheist standpoint.
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Trumble
06-28-2009, 09:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
This example fails for a few reasons.

1) In the circumstances, not even theists would claim the apple pie was made directly by God.
You are making exactly the same mistake as Gossamer skye in confusing a thought experiment with a real world situation. In terms of that thought experiment, all of the less 'obvious' bakers have been ruled out, so the 'default', as she put it, would indeed be God.

2) If you're using an apple pie as an analogy for the universe at large, you're presupposing the latter was in fact created. Which contradicts the atheist standpoint.
It was, in fact, introduced by Gossamer skye as as an analogy for abeogenesis, not the universe at large. There is no need to presuppose that the apple pie was 'created' in sense of requiring an intelligent Creator, only that it came into being as the result of some process, natural or supernatural, that is currently unidentified.

Obviously, in the real world no theist or atheist would give serious consideration to any other possibility than that the cake was baked in the normal fashion. However, as I said, we are not concerned with a real-world situation; if we were I'm sure we could all agree that baking a pie could never be analogous to abeogenesis in any meaningful way in the first place. Gossamer's point would therefore collapse without Joe98's response even being necessary.
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Tony
06-28-2009, 10:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

Don't be so afraid if my bluster hasn't fooled you!

very lol. GS u definately win the ascorbic comedy award. sometimes its a treat just anticipating ur replies. May Allah bless u and ur ever sharpening tongue sister, Ameen :laugh:
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Muezzin
06-28-2009, 10:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You are making exactly the same mistake as Gossamer skye in confusing a thought experiment with a real world situation.
It's a very flawed thought experiment then.

In terms of that thought experiment, all of the less 'obvious' bakers have been ruled out, so the 'default', as she put it, would indeed be God.
The obvious bakers have not been ruled out. Only people in the immediate vicinity. That is far too soon to revert to 'default'.

If that's the point, that religious people jump to this conclusion too soon, it would be a mistake to suggest that religious people do.

It was, in fact, introduced by Gossamer skye as as an analogy for abeogenesis, not the universe at large. There is no need to presuppose that the apple pie was 'created' in sense of requiring an intelligent Creator, only that it came into being as the result of some process, natural or supernatural, that is currently unidentified.
Yet Joe98's reply was not criticising it for being a bad analogy for abeogenesis. It read more like a very strange refutation of the Watchmaker Argument.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gubbleknucker
Ok, then, why are the gods exempt from this "law"?
Because God created this law?

I didn't intend to argue this point (because I suck at it). I was simply pointing out what appeared to be a misunderstanding of the gist of the discussion.
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Trumble
06-28-2009, 11:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
It's a very flawed thought experiment then.
Why? The whole point of a thought experiment is not to present a real-life situation which are always immeasurably complex, with most complications being totally irrelevant, but to almost surgically isolate the issue at hand. By your measure all of the most famous thought experiments in the history of philosophy are 'very flawed'.

The obvious bakers have not been ruled out. Only people in the immediate vicinity. That is far too soon to revert to 'default'.
Maybe, but it doesn't matter in the slightest. In the thought experiment you could rule out some more people. Then some more people. And as many other people as you think are necessary. And end up at exactly the same place.
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Muezzin
06-28-2009, 12:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Why? The whole point of a thought experiment is not to present a real-life situation which are always immeasurably complex, with most complications being totally irrelevant, but to almost surgically isolate the issue at hand.
The apple pie example did not surgically isolate the issue at hand, almost or otherwise. Instead of crticising a bad example for abiogenesis, the writer of the message I responded to decided to make some bizarre refutation of a Watchmaker Analogy. He compounded a bad example with a worse alleged thought experiment.

By your measure all of the most famous thought experiments in the history of philosophy are 'very flawed'.
Hey, I just call them as I see them. And I seriously doubt Joe98's post was a thought experiment in the first place.

If you'd like to continue to imply that because I disagree with you on a particular example, I also necessarily disagree with every authority on every example, and am therefore wrong, go for it. It's quite amusing.

Maybe, but it doesn't matter in the slightest. In the thought experiment you could rule out some more people. Then some more people. And as many other people as you think are necessary. And end up at exactly the same place.
You're missing the point. It would be intellectually dishonest to stop questioning simply because you find no answers in the immediate vicinity. Even if you come to exactly the same place, you've done so as a result of exhausting other avenues.

You're also missing the point that it does not appear that Joe98 even intended for this to be a thought experiment.
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