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nebula
04-19-2009, 06:49 PM
Thought you lot might find this interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqbQW...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIFEvuTqbmo
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Thinker
04-19-2009, 07:10 PM
I watched both videos. The first one was pointless. The second one was revealing, the woman wearing the hijab said she wore it because she believed it pleased God and she also didn’t want to be judged by the way she looked. Covering your hair stops people judging you from the way you look – NO IT DOESN’T; wearing a hijab causes people to judge you by the way you look – YES IT DOES. The woman not wearing any head covering said that wearing a hijab is not mentioned in the Qu’ran (and it’s not) she was shouted down by the woman in the hijab. The woman wearing the niqab didn’t seem to sure about why she was wearing, she said that she didn’t think it was obligatory but some others do and she wearing it would make it less likely that she’d get unwanted attention from men.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-19-2009, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I watched both videos. The first one was pointless. The second one was revealing, the woman wearing the hijab said she wore it because she believed it pleased God and she also didn’t want to be judged by the way she looked. Covering your hair stops people judging you from the way you look – NO IT DOESN’T; wearing a hijab causes people to judge you by the way you look – YES IT DOES. The woman not wearing any head covering said that wearing a hijab is not mentioned in the Qu’ran (and it’s not) she was shouted down by the woman in the hijab. The woman wearing the niqab didn’t seem to sure about why she was wearing, she said that she didn’t think it was obligatory but some others do and she wearing it would make it less likely that she’d get unwanted attention from men.
thinker less thinking more researching pls Quran does say to cover up :)
59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allâh is Ever Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful.
quran 33 59
[24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.
Dawud :: Book 32 : Hadith 4090
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin:

When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.

Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 282:

Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba:

'Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and COVERED THEIR FACES WITH THE CUT PIECES

And to please Allah is the best answer sorry you dont see that
May Allah GUIDE YOU Ameen :)
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transition?
04-19-2009, 07:20 PM
I thought the second one was interesting. The ladies keeper their calm : ).


The women without the hijab really made me mad. My beans, she said "integrate" one million times. She basically implied that holding different opinions and beliefs creates a barrier. Obviously, but that barrier is better than conforming to whatever singular belief that we should have to wear polos and shop at Express or Banana Republic. Talk about extreme conformity.
The other word she used was "exclusive" yes different beliefs do separate people, but just the fact of separation shouldn't be a reason we should give up one's beliefs. As if she doesn't want to distinguish herself and be proud of her differing beliefs.
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Thinker
04-19-2009, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
thinker less thinking more researching pls Quran does say to cover up :)
59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allâh is Ever Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful.
quran 33 59
No it doesn't . . . . . .

Sura 24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms..." [Abdullah Yusuf Ali]

In arabic the verse is:

وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَىٰ جُيُوبِهِنَّ

which is transliterated as

wal yudribna bikumurihinna alaa juyubihin.

Khimaar comes from the word khamr, the root meaning of which is to cover.
For example, the Muhammed said: “Khammiru aaniyatakum (cover your vessels).” Everything that covers something else is called its khimaar. In common usage khimaar has come to be used as a name for the garment with which arab woman use to drape over their shoulders and can pull it up to cover the top of their head.

Imam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi said: "Women in those days used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends upon their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, along with the ears, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar."

Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir said: "'Draw their khumur to cover their bosoms' means that they should wear the khimar in such a way that they cover their chests so that they will be different from the women of the jahiliyyah who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests uncovered and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered."

It seem to me that there is nothing in the verse to compel women to cover their heads and anything that makes it compulsory is a rule of man (not woman) that came later.

So show me where the word hijab is mentiond in the Qu'ran?
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transition?
04-19-2009, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I watched both videos. The first one was pointless. The second one was revealing, the woman wearing the hijab said she wore it because she believed it pleased God and she also didn’t want to be judged by the way she looked. Covering your hair stops people judging you from the way you look – NO IT DOESN’T; wearing a hijab causes people to judge you by the way you look – YES IT DOES. The woman not wearing any head covering said that wearing a hijab is not mentioned in the Qu’ran (and it’s not) she was shouted down by the woman in the hijab. The woman wearing the niqab didn’t seem to sure about why she was wearing, she said that she didn’t think it was obligatory but some others do and she wearing it would make it less likely that she’d get unwanted attention from men.
I thought the video was lacking.
"private parts" loses its translation in English, but in in the ayat, private parts of a woman are meant to be more than just what most nonMuslims (and that woman, which just speaks loads of how much she's studied those ayats, which is a shame she's speaking on the behalf of Islam, morenoike her ignorance) think it is -- the reproductive area and bosom.
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Ali.
04-19-2009, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
No it doesn't . . . . . .

Sura 24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms..." [Abdullah Yusuf Ali]

In arabic the verse is:

وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَىٰ جُيُوبِهِنَّ

which is transliterated as

wal yudribna bikumurihinna alaa juyubihin.

Khimaar comes from the word khamr, the root meaning of which is to cover.
For example, the Muhammed said: “Khammiru aaniyatakum (cover your vessels).” Everything that covers something else is called its khimaar. In common usage khimaar has come to be used as a name for the garment with which arab woman use to drape over their shoulders and can pull it up to cover the top of their head.

Imam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi said: "Women in those days used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends upon their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, along with the ears, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar."

Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir said: "'Draw their khumur to cover their bosoms' means that they should wear the khimar in such a way that they cover their chests so that they will be different from the women of the jahiliyyah who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests uncovered and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered."

It seem to me that there is nothing in the verse to compel women to cover their heads and anything that makes it compulsory is a rule of man (not woman) that came later.

So show me where the word hijab is mentiond in the Qu'ran?
There. It's indirectly there.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-19-2009, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
No it doesn't . . . . . .

Sura 24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms..." [Abdullah Yusuf Ali]

In arabic the verse is:

وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَىٰ جُيُوبِهِنَّ

which is transliterated as

wal yudribna bikumurihinna alaa juyubihin.

Khimaar comes from the word khamr, the root meaning of which is to cover.
For example, the Muhammed said: “Khammiru aaniyatakum (cover your vessels).” Everything that covers something else is called its khimaar. In common usage khimaar has come to be used as a name for the garment with which arab woman use to drape over their shoulders and can pull it up to cover the top of their head.

Imam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi said: "Women in those days used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends upon their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, along with the ears, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar."

Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir said: "'Draw their khumur to cover their bosoms' means that they should wear the khimar in such a way that they cover their chests so that they will be different from the women of the jahiliyyah who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests uncovered and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered."

It seem to me that there is nothing in the verse to compel women to cover their heads and anything that makes it compulsory is a rule of man (not woman) that came later.

So show me where the word hijab is mentiond in the Qu'ran?
Hijaab in Arabic means covering or concealing. Hijaab is the name of something that is used to cover. Everything that comes between two things is hijaab.

Hijaab means everything that is used to cover something and prevent anyone from reaching it, such as curtains, door keepers and garments, etc.

Khimaar comes from the word khamr, the root meaning of which is to cover. For example, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Khammiru aaniyatakum (cover your vessels).” Everything that covers something else is called its khimaar.

But in common usage khimaar has come to be used as a name for the garment with which a woman covers her head; in some cases this does not go against the linguistic meaning of khimaar.

Some of the fuqahaa’ have defined it as that which covers the head, the temples and the neck.

The difference between the hijaab and the khimaar is that the hijaab is something which covers all of a woman’s body, whilst the khimaar in general is something with which a woman covers her head
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Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
There. It's indirectly there.
Yes, but how do you know what should be covered?
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Ali.
04-19-2009, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, but how do you know what should be covered?
that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof

There will be varying opinions of what 'must appear' as this specific translation says.

Do you think hair is not part of beauty?
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Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof

There will be varying opinions of what 'must appear' as this specific translation says.

Do you think hair is not part of beauty?
I think the most beautiful part is the face, including the eyes, so I'll have to for for the burqa. what about you?
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Cabdullahi
04-19-2009, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I watched both videos. The first one was pointless. The second one was revealing, the woman wearing the hijab said she wore it because she believed it pleased God and she also didn’t want to be judged by the way she looked. Covering your hair stops people judging you from the way you look – NO IT DOESN’T; wearing a hijab causes people to judge you by the way you look – YES IT DOES. The woman not wearing any head covering said that wearing a hijab is not mentioned in the Qu’ran (and it’s not) she was shouted down by the woman in the hijab. The woman wearing the niqab didn’t seem to sure about why she was wearing, she said that she didn’t think it was obligatory but some others do and she wearing it would make it less likely that she’d get unwanted attention from men.
What video did you watch mate?!?!...because the woman in the middle had inadequate knowledge about Islam to even be on this sort of discussion she probably jumped on this opportunity as a way for her to impress the westerner by siding with them on an issue that is clear

but listen take these three women as participants in a spiritual run consisting of a track that has a certain distance if any one person reaches that distance he/she has automatically won.....so contestant A reaches the endpoint and wins,contestant B hesitantly stays behind arguing that the spectators are going to laugh at her, contestant C ran to the endpoint but also carried on further to an extra finish point where only those who persevere reach

contestant A:hijab
contestant B: no hijab
contestant C: niqaab


[Quran15:24] To Us are known those of you who hasten forward, and those who lag behind.
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transition?
04-19-2009, 07:56 PM
I think we should post on articles on what scholars have researched from hadith and Quran.. on what exactly is the awrah of a woman, rather than what we think is beauty.
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Ali.
04-19-2009, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I think the most beautiful part is the face, including the eyes, so I'll have to for for the burqa. what about you?
Hello.

May I quote the verse again. ... EXCEPT...
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Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
Hello.

May I quote the verse again. ... EXCEPT...
Why the face (must ordinarily) appear thereof and the hair not?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-19-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by transition?
I think we should post on articles on what scholars have researched from hadith and Quran.. on what exactly is the awrah of a woman, rather than what we think is beauty.
Verses and hadeeth about hijab
Could u please supply me with some qoutes from the Hadith and Quran on the impotance of hijab for women.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/13998/what%20is%20hijab
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Ali.
04-19-2009, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Why the face (must ordinarily) appear thereof and the hair not?
As I said there's varying opinion on that. You research it yourself if you're intent on finding out the truth. Have a think about it.
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Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
As I said there's varying opinion on that. You research it yourself if you're intent on finding out the truth. Have a think about it.
There si nos cholarly consensus as to what is obligatory so I'd eb stuck.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-19-2009, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There si nos cholarly consensus as to what is obligatory so I'd eb stuck.
Look for the ones with the must Daleel (proof)
AND use what Allah Has giving us to decide
daleel + brain = answer
what is proof? Quran and Sunnah (hadiths) hope this helps
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transition?
04-19-2009, 08:20 PM
Here's a link http://uploading.com/files/KS74Q5PN/jilbab
that may help clarify
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transition?
04-19-2009, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Verses and hadeeth about hijab
Could u please supply me with some qoutes from the Hadith and Quran on the impotance of hijab for women.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/13998/what%20is%20hijab

JazaikAllah Khair : )

just adding on if it hasn't already been covered.
On behalf of a helpful brother (May Allah Reward him for his efforts) who supplied me with some information:

tafsir ibn kathir:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Rulings of Hijab

This is a command from Allah to the believing women, and jealousy on His part over the wives of His believing servants. It is also to distinguish the believing women from the women of the Jahiliyyah and the deeds of the pagan women. The reason for the revelation of this Ayah was mentioned by Muqatil bin Hayyan, when he said: "We heard -- and Allah knows best -- that Jabir bin `Abdullah Al-Ansari narrated that Asma' bint Murshidah was in a house of hers in Bani Harithah, and the women started coming in to her without lower garments so that the anklets on their feet could be seen, along with their chests and forelocks. Asma' said: `How ugly this is!' Then Allah revealed:

[وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَـتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَـرِهِنَّ]

(And tell the believing women to lower their gaze...)'' And Allah says:

[وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَـتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَـرِهِنَّ]

(And tell the believing women to lower their gaze) meaning, from that which Allah has forbidden them to look at, apart from their husbands. [Some] scholars said that it is permissible for women to look at non-Mahram men without desire, as it was recorded in the Sahih that the Messenger of Allah was watching the Ethiopians playing with spears in the Masjid on the day of `Id, and `A'ishah the Mother of the believers was watching them from behind him and he was concealing her from them, until she got bored and went away.

[وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ]

(and protect their private parts). Sa`id bin Jubayr said: "From immoral actions.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah said: "Every Ayah of the Qur'an in which protecting the private parts is mentioned means protecting them from Zina, except for this Ayah --

[وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ]

(and protect their private parts), which means protecting them from being seen by anybody.''

[وَلاَ يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلاَّ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا]

(and not to show off their adornment except that which is apparent,) means, they should not show anything of their adornment to non-Mahram men except for whatever it is impossible to hide. Ibn Mas`ud said: "Such as clothes and outer garments,'' Meaning what the Arab women used to wear of the veil which covered their clothes and whatever showed from underneath the outer garment. There is no blame on her for this, because this is something that she cannot conceal. Similar to that is what appears of her lower garment and what she cannot conceal. Al-Hasan, Ibn Sirin, Abu Al-Jawza', Ibrahim An-Nakha`i and others also had the same view as Ibn Mas`ud.

[وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ]

(and to draw their veils all over their Juyub) means that they should wear the outer garment in such a way as to cover their chests and ribs, so that they will be different from the women of the Jahiliyyah, who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests completely uncovered, and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered. So Allah commanded the believing women to cover themselves, as He says:

[يأَيُّهَا النَّبِىُّ قُل لاًّزْوَجِكَ وَبَنَـتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ ذلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ]

(O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known, so as not to be annoyed) [33:59] And in this noble Ayah He said:

[وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ]

(and to draw their (Khumur) veils all over their Juyub) Khumur (veils) is the plural of Khimar, which means something that covers, and is what is used to cover the head. This is what is known among the people as a veil. Sa`id bin Jubayr said:

[وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ]

(and to draw) means to pull it around and tie it securely.

[بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ]

(their veils all over their Juyub) means, over their necks and chests so that nothing can be seen of them. Al-Bukhari recorded that `A'ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, said: "May Allah have mercy on the women of the early emigrants. When Allah revealed the Ayah:

[وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ]

(and to draw their veils all over their Juyub), they tore their aprons and Akhtamar themselves with them.'' He also narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that `A'ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, used to say: "When this Ayah:

[وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ]

(and to draw their veils all over their Juyub) was revealed, they took their Izars (waistsheets) and tore them at the edges, and Akhtamar themselves with them.''

[وَلاَ يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلاَّ لِبُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ ءَابَآئِهِنَّ أَوْ ءَابَآءِ بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَآئِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَآءِ بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِى إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِى أَخَوَتِهِنَّ]

(and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons,) All of these are a woman's close relatives whom she can never marry (Mahram) and it is permissible for her to show her adornments to them, but without making a wanton display of herself. Ibn Al-Mundhir recorded that `Ikrimah commented on this Ayah,

[وَلاَ يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلاَّ لِبُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ ءَابَآئِهِنَّ أَوْ ءَابَآءِ بُعُولَتِهِنَّ]

(and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers...), "The paternal uncle and maternal uncle are not mentioned here, because they may describe a woman to their sons, so a woman should not remove her Khimar in front of her paternal or maternal uncle.''With regard to the husband, all of this is for his sake, so she should try her best when adorning herself for him, unlike the way she should appear in front of others.

[أَوْ نِسَآئِهِنَّ]

(or their women,) this means that she may also wear her adornment in front of other Muslim women, but not in front of the women of Ahl Adh-Dhimmah (Jewish and Christian women), lest they describe her to their husbands. This is prohibited for all women, but more so in the case of the women of Ahl Adh-Dhimmah, because there is nothing to prevent them from doing that, but Muslim women know that it is unlawful and so, would be deterred from doing it. The Messenger of Allah said:

«لَا تُبَاشِرِ الْمَرْأَةُ الْمَرْأَةَ فَتَنْعَتَهَا لِزَوْجِهَا كَأَنَّهُ يَنْظُرُ إِلَيْهَا»

(No woman should describe another woman to her husband so that it is as if he is looking at her.) It was recorded in the Two Sahihs from Ibn Mas`ud.

[أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَـنُهُنَّ]

(or their right hand possessions. ) Ibn Jarir said, "This means from among the women of the idolators. It is permissible for a Muslim woman to reveal her adornment before such a woman, even if she is an idolatress, because she is her slave-girl.'' This was also the view of Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib. Allah says;

[أَوِ التَّـبِعِينَ غَيْرِ أُوْلِى الإِرْبَةِ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ]

(Tabi`in among men who do not have desire,) such as hired servants and followers who are not at the same level as the woman and are feeble-minded and have no interest in or desire for women. Ibn `Abbas said, "This is the kind of person who has no desire.'' `Ikrimah said, "This is the hermaphrodite, who does not experience erections.'' This was also the view of others among the Salaf. It was narrated in the Sahih from `A'ishah that a hermaphrodite, used to enter upon the family of the Messenger of Allah and they used to consider him as one of those who do not have desire, but then the Messenger of Allah came in when he was describing a woman with four rolls of fat in front and eight behind. The Messenger of Allah said,

«أَلَا أَرَى هَذَا يَعْلَمُ مَا هَهُنَا لَا يَدْخُلَنَّ عَلَيْكُمْ»

(Lo! I think this person knows what is they are; he should never enter upon you.) He expelled him, and he stayed in Al-Bayda' and only came on Fridays to get food.

[أَوِ الطِّفْلِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يَظْهَرُواْ عَلَى عَوْرَتِ النِّسَآءِ]

(or children who are not aware of the nakedness of women. ) Because they are so young they do not understand anything about women or their `Awrah or their soft speech or their enticing ways of walking and moving. If a child is small and does not understand that, there is nothing wrong with him entering upon women, but if he is an adolescent or approaching adolescence, so that he knows and understands these things, and can make a distinction between who is beautiful and who is not, then he should not enter upon women. It was recorded in the Two Sahihs that the Messenger of Allah said:

«إِيَّاكُمْ وَالدُّخُولَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ»

(Avoid entering upon women.) It was said, "O Messenger of Allah, what do you think about the male in-laws'' He said:

«الْحَمْوُ: الْمَوْتُ»

(The male in-law is death.)
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Hassan'76ers
04-19-2009, 08:22 PM
Allah orders us to pray in the Quran, i think we can all agree with that...but does he show us how to pray? So how doe we know how to pray? The prophets sunnah and teachings! Same way that ayah does not specify how to obey god by dressing modestly but from the prophets teachings, from his wives, from the women at his time, we can see that wearing the hijab is part of the faith and is compulsory!
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-19-2009, 08:32 PM
Transition Ameen to the dua and jazak Allahu Khayr for the info
Verses and hadeeth about hijab
Could u please supply me with some qoutes from the Hadith and Quran on the impotance of hijab for women?
and there is more info here at this link :).
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/13998/what%20is%20hijab
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Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 08:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Look for the ones with the must Daleel (proof)
AND use what Allah Has giving us to decide
daleel + brain = answer
what is proof? Quran and Sunnah (hadiths) hope this helps
Well, if it were so simple there'd be only one opinion.
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transition?
04-19-2009, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, if it were so simple there'd be only one opinion.
You're* right, I believe his equation is missing a variable: the heart.

On the contrary, the truth can be very clear, it's rather our hearts that don't want it to be clear.
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Zafran
04-19-2009, 08:50 PM
salaam

There is loads of scholary opnion on the hijab - By Ijma the Hijab is Fard.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-19-2009, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, if it were so simple there'd be only one opinion.
there are many opinions on many things. so for them they have came to a conclusion is what they do and follow according to there daleel now u should look for the daleel if you want to know i never said it was going to be simple i personal think face should be covered some dont SO seek for truth and you will find inshallah :)
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-19-2009, 08:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by transition?
Your right, I believe his equation is missing a variable: the heart.

On the contrary, the truth can be very clear, it's rather our hearts that don't want it to be clear.
mashallah well put :)
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Zafran
04-19-2009, 08:52 PM
salaam

most of the time we follow Ijma anyway - and its clear about wearing the Hijab.
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aamirsaab
04-19-2009, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I think the most beautiful part is the face, including the eyes, so I'll have to for for the burqa. what about you?
:sl:
Hair, eyes , body shape and facial features all are signs of beauty, psychologically speaking. Funnilly enough they are all covered via hijab/niqab/jilbab. Clever innit?
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GreyKode
04-19-2009, 09:08 PM
Covering your hair stops people judging you from the way you look – NO IT DOESN’T; wearing a hijab causes people to judge you by the way you look – YES IT DOES.
This statement is completely baseless.

I might say the exact opposite about women in eastern countries and cultures.

wearing a hijab causes people to judge you by the way you look – YES IT DOES
could you explain why?
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Tony
04-19-2009, 09:13 PM
wearing hijab to please Allah can only be good thing, to choose modesty and take yourself out of the public eye for Him is a beuatiful thing and requires strength. May Allah bless those who choose to cover up
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burdenofbeing
04-19-2009, 11:24 PM
chador ftw!
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 06:21 PM
that they should not display their beauty

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
There. It's indirectly there.
Define beauty? Show me where hair is the defining factor?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-20-2009, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
that they should not display their beauty



Define beauty? Show me where hair is the defining factor?
just read all of the post
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Hijaab in Arabic means covering or concealing. Hijaab is the name of something that is used to cover. Everything that comes between two things is hijaab.

Hijaab means everything that is used to cover something and prevent anyone from reaching it, such as curtains, door keepers and garments, etc.

Khimaar comes from the word khamr, the root meaning of which is to cover. For example, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Khammiru aaniyatakum (cover your vessels).” Everything that covers something else is called its khimaar.

But in common usage khimaar has come to be used as a name for the garment with which a woman covers her head; in some cases this does not go against the linguistic meaning of khimaar.

Some of the fuqahaa’ have defined it as that which covers the head, the temples and the neck.

The difference between the hijaab and the khimaar is that the hijaab is something which covers all of a woman’s body, whilst the khimaar in general is something with which a woman covers her head
Thank you for that reasoned and balanced response.

Indeed the meaning of words change and hijab today is the distinctive style of head covering that has been approved as appropriate by the 'scholars' and has become the accepted uniform for female Muslim.

I have three questions:

1. When did that distinctive style that we see today and describe as the hijab first appear?
2. Who invented it?
3. As Muslims must follow the Sunnah do they not wear the style of head-cover that Muhammad approved of as was worn by his wives?
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali.
Do you think hair is not part of beauty?
Show me a verse which describes hair as a principal feature of beauty
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-20-2009, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Thank you for that reasoned and balanced response.

Indeed the meaning of words change and hijab today is the distinctive style of head covering that has been approved as appropriate by the 'scholars' and has become the accepted uniform for female Muslim.

I have three questions:

1. When did that distinctive style that we see today and describe as the hijab first appear?
2. Who invented it?
3. As Muslims must follow the Sunnah do they not wear the style of head-cover that Muhammad approved of as was worn by his wives?
here we go again lol the sunnah is to cover them self
Hijab is Any kind of veil - it could be a curtain, a facial veil, etc. The facial Hijab is divided into two types: (1). Niqab - Full facial covering (2). Khimar - Partial facial covering, i.e. it covers the face, but leaves the eyes exposed. It is said that the Universe is what veils the creators from the creation. If you find the veil awe-inspiring, how much more awe-inspiring is the One behind the veil?
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by transition?
I think we should post on articles on what scholars have researched from hadith and Quran.. on what exactly is the awrah of a woman, rather than what we think is beauty.
Which women in Islamic text are descrined as THE most beautiful - al-hoor al-‘iyn

What feature is it that is the principla feature of beauty - their eyes . . . .

[al-Waaqi’ah 56:22, 23]
al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him)said:
“And (there will be) Hoor (fair females) with wide lovely eyes”. Al-Hawra’ is a woman in whose eyes are lined with kohl, beautiful and bright. Al-‘iyn refers to beautiful and huge eyes. The beauty of eyes in the female is one of the greatest signs of beauty.
“Like unto preserved pearls” means, as if they are pure, white, shining pearls, which are covered and protected from people’s eyes, the wind and the sun. Their colour is one of the most beautiful of colours and they have no fault or blemish of any kind. This is how al-hoor al-‘iyn are: they have no faults of blemishes of any kind, rather they are beautiful in all ways.
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Verses and hadeeth about hijab
Could u please supply me with some qoutes from the Hadith and Quran on the impotance of hijab for women.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/13998/what%20is%20hijab
Did you read that before you posted it - show me the verse that describes what we know today as the hijab?

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what we know today as the hijab.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-20-2009, 06:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Show me a verse which describes hair as a principal feature of beauty
A verse has been show to cover beauty ... 59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allâh is Ever Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful. quran 33 56
31. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful. quran 24 31

and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)
The veil (khimaar) is that which comes down from the head and covers the face, and the jilbaab is an outer garment with which a woman covers herself, leaving no part of her body showing.
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hassan'76ers
Allah orders us to pray in the Quran, i think we can all agree with that...but does he show us how to pray? !
Maybe he didn't show you how to pray because God doesn't mind how you stand or which way you face so long as you pray!
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-20-2009, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Maybe he didn't show you how to pray because God doesn't mind how you stand or which way you face so long as you pray!
we are to follow Quran and Sunnah (the ways of the prophet peace be upon him) do u understand that that is what Allah ordered
(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:80] Allaah described obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him) as being a part of obedience to Him. Then He made a connection between obedience to Him and obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him): “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

(b) Allaah warns us not to go against the Prophet (peace be upon him), and states that whoever disobeys him will be doomed to eternal Hell. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [al-Nur 24:63]

(c) Allaah has made obedience to His Prophet a religious duty; resisting or opposing it is a sign of hypocrisy: “”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]

(d) Allaah commands His slaves to respond to Him and His Messenger: “O you who believe! Answer Allaah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life . . .” [al-Anfaal 8:24]

(e) Allaah also commands His slaves to refer all disputes to him: “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
This statement is completely baseless.

I might say the exact opposite about women in eastern countries and cultures.

wearing a hijab causes people to judge you by the way you look – YES IT DOES
could you explain why?
Surely you must accept that people judge you on what they see and they see what you wear and make judgements (right or wrong). The woman in the interview (wearing the hijab) said that she didn't want to be judged on how she looked as though people judged people on by the hair on their head!!
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
wearing hijab to please Allah can only be good thing, to choose modesty and take yourself out of the public eye for Him is a beuatiful thing and requires strength. May Allah bless those who choose to cover up
You're just repeating the party line!!
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-20-2009, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You're just repeating the party line!!
Tirmidhi with a SAHIH chain reports...
"Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said “All of a woman is ‘awrah.” (Shaikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid quotes this hadith narrated by Tirmidhi with a sahih isnaad and says this is a direct hadith from Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam )

Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4090
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha): When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.
Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4091
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "May Allah have mercy on the early immigrant women. When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalanee, who is known as Ameer Al-Mu'mineen in the field of Hadith, said that the phrase, "covered themselves", in the above Hadith means that they "covered their faces". [Fath Al-Bari].

Abu Dawood Book 10, Hadith # 1829
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: (Radhiallaahu Ánha) who said, "The riders would pass us while we were with the Messenger of Allah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam). When they got close to us, we would draw our outer cloak from our heads over our faces. When they passed by, we would uncover our faces.
Recorded by Ahmad, Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah, Narrated 'Aisha. [In his work Jilbab al-Marah al-Muslimah, al-Albani states (p. 108) that it is hasan due to corroborating evidence. Also, in a narration from Asma {who was not the wife of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)}

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Hadith # 715
Narrated 'Ikrima (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) narrates "Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil." It is a very long hadith but the point is the women of Sahaba wore the full veil.
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
31. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful. quran 24 31

and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)
The veil (khimaar) is that which comes down from the head and covers the face, and the jilbaab is an outer garment with which a woman covers herself, leaving no part of her body showing.
Which is the verse of the Qu'ran which say nothing should be added and nothing should be taken away. What you have posted above has been added to; that is a sin. The correct verse is . . . .

31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

But even with your amended version of the verse there is still no mention of hair and the hijab worn today looks nothing like the covering worn by Muhammad's wives.
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
we are to follow Quran and Sunnah
So why don't Muslim women wear the same style of covering worn by Muhammad's wives??
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Tirmidhi with a SAHIH chain reports...
"Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said “All of a woman is ‘awrah.” (Shaikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid quotes this hadith narrated by Tirmidhi with a sahih isnaad and says this is a direct hadith from Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam )

Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4090
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha): When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.
Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4091
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "May Allah have mercy on the early immigrant women. When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalanee, who is known as Ameer Al-Mu'mineen in the field of Hadith, said that the phrase, "covered themselves", in the above Hadith means that they "covered their faces". [Fath Al-Bari].

Abu Dawood Book 10, Hadith # 1829
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: (Radhiallaahu Ánha) who said, "The riders would pass us while we were with the Messenger of Allah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam). When they got close to us, we would draw our outer cloak from our heads over our faces. When they passed by, we would uncover our faces.
Recorded by Ahmad, Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah, Narrated 'Aisha. [In his work Jilbab al-Marah al-Muslimah, al-Albani states (p. 108) that it is hasan due to corroborating evidence. Also, in a narration from Asma {who was not the wife of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)}

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Hadith # 715
Narrated 'Ikrima (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) narrates "Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil." It is a very long hadith but the point is the women of Sahaba wore the full veil.

Please explain to me how any of the above describes the garment we now know as the hijab or for that matter the niqab? At best these hadith (and I don't know how strong they are) suggest that a womans face is the feature of beauty she should not display and that she should wear a garment which is a large shawls of the style worn by modern day Indian women.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-20-2009, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Please explain to me how any of the above describes the garment we now know as the hijab or for that matter the niqab? At best these hadith (and I don't know how strong they are) suggest that a womans face is the feature of beauty she should not display and that she should wear a garment which is a large shawls of the style worn by modern day Indian women.
you really dont get it do you HIJAB IS COVERING WHAT THEY WEAR NOW IS COVERING IS IT NOT
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Thinker
04-20-2009, 07:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
you really dont get it do you HIJAB IS COVERING WHAT THEY WEAR NOW IS COVERING IS IT NOT
HIJAB IS COVERING WHAT THEY WEAR NOW IS COVERING IS IT NOT?

What does that mean??
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Tony
04-20-2009, 07:42 PM
Thinker, what does repeating party line mean. I have so much respect for those who cover up for Allah, and what I posted is what I feel
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-20-2009, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
HIJAB IS COVERING WHAT THEY WEAR NOW IS COVERING IS IT NOT?

What does that mean??
im saying doesnt matter what it is called long as the cover them self Hijab niqab jalbiya what ever it is called it is Hijab a covering
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Whatsthepoint
04-20-2009, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Hair, eyes , body shape and facial features all are signs of beauty, psychologically speaking. Funnilly enough they are all covered via hijab/niqab/jilbab. Clever innit?
Only niqab and a jilbaba, hijab itself no.
and only the taliban burqa, the one with the net, covers the eyes.
And I don't consider covering clever.
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aamirsaab
04-20-2009, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
...
And I don't consider covering clever.
I meant the fact that those ''beauty spots'' are all covered via the Islamic dress code is clever. There is a reason for the hijab/jilbab/niqab and covering the beauty is quite clearly it.

For a 1400 year old religion to have a ruling for that (and also one that works in conjunction with others surrounding the topic of lowering ones gaze), would take a certain level of intelligence. Ergo, it is clever.
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Whatsthepoint
04-20-2009, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I meant the fact that those ''beauty spots'' are all covered via the Islamic dress code is clever. There is a reason for the hijab/jilbab/niqab and covering the beauty is quite clearly it.

For a 1400 year old religion to have a ruling for that (and also one that works in conjunction with others surrounding the topic of lowering ones gaze), would take a certain level of intelligence. Ergo, it is clever.
Puting a bag on something beautiful isn't clever.
Puting a bag on only half of the population even less so!
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-20-2009, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Puting a bag on something beautiful isn't clever.
Puting a bag on only half of the population even less so!
u know what please Allah is way way more important then thinking about pleasing you it is what it is no one asked you to put it on
oh and pleasing Allah IS VERY VERY CLEVER WISE SMART NOT PLEASING HIM IS WHAT IS IGNORANT
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Najm
04-21-2009, 01:43 AM
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Some really good posts on this thread. MarshaAllah!!

Its just a reminder. We must not forget about the importance of Islam and what it teaches us. The importance of Shahada. The importance of Tawheed. The importance of Taqwa. etc etc

One must have internal and external hijab. One must have taqwa.

If a one has taqwa then they will not approach the opposite member. If one has taqwa, then wearing hijab is VERY important. If one has taqwa, then they will lower their gaze. If one has taqwa, then they will following Allah (Subhana Wa Ta'ala)'s commands.

Hijab is just one of the important criteria's. On its own, it has a good effect. But put it with everything else (Taqwa, manners, modesty etc), then its the best, its BRILLIANT!!! Alhamdulillah!!

FiAmaaniAllah
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-21-2009, 01:55 AM
Just wanted to post this since you mentioned taqwa :) hope you enjoy
The meaning of taqwa was clarified in a statement made by `Umar ibn Al-Khattab, the second caliph after Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). `Umar compared being God-conscious to a person going through a narrow path with thorns while he is trying to snatch his clothes in order to protect himself from any harm. In Arabic, clothing is used as a metaphor for a person’s character and the thorns are a metaphor for the temptations in life, such as greed and wanting to get money from any source whether legitimate or illegitimate, or temptation towards illicit relationships. This similitude means that the person goes through life trying to protect his moral and pure character, which was endowed on him by God, from all other diversions, deviations, or temptations that surround him.
God-consciousness is the core of taqwa because God-consciousness is acknowledging, feeling, and realizing God’s presence at all times, and knowing that He is looking after you and knows what you are doing and even what your soul whispers to you. This feeling results in trying to go through life according to God’s orders and being ashamed of doing wrong in His presence, which is at all times.
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Najm
04-21-2009, 02:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Just wanted to post this since you mentioned taqwa :) hope you enjoy
The meaning of taqwa was clarified in a statement made by `Umar ibn Al-Khattab, the second caliph after Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). `Umar compared being God-conscious to a person going through a narrow path with thorns while he is trying to snatch his clothes in order to protect himself from any harm. In Arabic, clothing is used as a metaphor for a person’s character and the thorns are a metaphor for the temptations in life, such as greed and wanting to get money from any source whether legitimate or illegitimate, or temptation towards illicit relationships. This similitude means that the person goes through life trying to protect his moral and pure character, which was endowed on him by God, from all other diversions, deviations, or temptations that surround him.
God-consciousness is the core of taqwa because God-consciousness is acknowledging, feeling, and realizing God’s presence at all times, and knowing that He is looking after you and knows what you are doing and even what your soul whispers to you. This feeling results in trying to go through life according to God’s orders and being ashamed of doing wrong in His presence, which is at all times.
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

SubhaanAllah!! Excellent post!!

For the person that mentioned the face and eyes being the most beautiful part. Maybe you are right but even then....


A sister is protecting(hijab) her beauty, while a brother is looking away(lowering gaze) from her beauty! And the sister and brother having taqwa will mean they will stay away from each other rather than come towards each other.

Alhamdulillah! May Allah provide us with Taqwa. Ameen

FiAmaaniAllah
Reply

Thinker
04-21-2009, 09:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
Thinker, what does repeating party line mean. I have so much respect for those who cover up for Allah, and what I posted is what I feel
Originally Posted by TKTony
wearing hijab to please Allah can only be good thing, to choose modesty and take yourself out of the public eye for Him is a beuatiful thing and requires strength. May Allah bless those who choose to cover up

My response . . . . . You're just repeating the party line!!



‘Repeating the party line’ comes from politics whereby a political party will do something or say something and issue a statement to its members to say “ . . . . . . . . . . “ if asked why they did or said that.

In this instance your reason why the Mulsimah must wear hijab isn’t based upon agreed valid Islamic text or your own research, it is (I suspect) something which you have been taught.
Reply

Thinker
04-21-2009, 09:47 AM
Will someone to show me some a verse in the Qu’ran or even an hadith from the companions that says that a woman’s head hair is the or even a principal feature of beauty?

Any tell me why a Muslimah’s eyes aren’t covered as they are a mentioned as principal feature of beauty?

And why Muslimah’s do not follow the Sunnah by wearing the style of head-cover that Muhammad approved of as was worn by his wives?

AND as a matter of interest, I would much like to know

When did that distinctive style that we see today and describe as the hijab first appear?

Who invented it?
Reply

nightingale
04-21-2009, 09:54 AM
“And tell the believing women to lower their eyes, and guard their modesty, and that they display not their ornaments except what appears of them. And that they draw their scarves (khumurihinna) over their bosoms…” (An-Nur: 31)

The word used in this context is khumur which has been variously translated as veils or scarves; the latter is more precise for it is the plural of khimar, which has been defined as “a woman’s head covering; a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head.” (See Ibn Manzur, Lisan al-`Arab.)
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saba muslimah
04-21-2009, 09:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nebula
Thought you lot might find this interesting.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIFEvuTqbmo
This is very nice regarding Hijab & niqab...!!
Reply

Thinker
04-21-2009, 10:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nightingale
“And tell the believing women to lower their eyes, and guard their modesty, and that they display not their ornaments except what appears of them. And that they draw their scarves (khumurihinna) over their bosoms…” (An-Nur: 31)

The word used in this context is khumur which has been variously translated as veils or scarves; the latter is more precise for it is the plural of khimar, which has been defined as “a woman’s head covering; a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head.” (See Ibn Manzur, Lisan al-`Arab.)
Thak you for the explanation and description of the covering that should be worn. A description that does not fit that of the hijab, hence I ask why Muslimah’s do not follow the Sunnah by wearing the style of head-cover that Muhammad approved of as was worn by his wives, one that can be drawn across their face and eyes when they feel the ned to protect their modesty?
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-21-2009, 10:25 AM
:sl:
you really are a show thinker. its like your sharia law thread. what a joke!!!

[al-Waaqi’ah 56:22, 23]
al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him)said:
“And (there will be) Hoor (fair females) with wide lovely eyes”. Al-Hawra’ is a woman in whose eyes are lined with kohl, beautiful and bright. Al-‘iyn refers to beautiful and huge eyes. The beauty of eyes in the female is one of the greatest signs of beauty.
“Like unto preserved pearls” means, as if they are pure, white, shining pearls, which are covered and protected from people’s eyes, the wind and the sun. Their colour is one of the most beautiful of colours and they have no fault or blemish of any kind. This is how al-hoor al-‘iyn are: they have no faults of blemishes of any kind, rather they are beautiful in all ways.
hes referring to the women of paradise how many women of this earth have eyes like that!!! scarp that, how many women on earth look like what was described?

Any tell me why a Muslimah’s eyes aren’t covered as they are a mentioned as principal feature of beauty?
i dunno you tell me. what would happen if a person was to cover their eyes!
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Thinker
04-21-2009, 01:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
:sl:
you really are a show thinker. its like your sharia law thread. what a joke!!!
Joke – please tell me what I said that you find funny?

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
:sl:
hes referring to the women of paradise how many women of this earth have eyes like that!!! scarp that, how many women on earth look like what was described?

I know that. It was suggested that the reason the hijab is worn was to satisfy the requirements of verse 24:31, specifically to - guard their modesty; not display their beauty and ornaments. The question followed – “where in lslamic text is it stated that head hair is a principal feature of women’s beauty or that displaying hair is an act of immodesty. In the absence of a reply, I posted the verse describing the al-hoor al-‘iyn as, it seems logically to follow that as they are the most beautiful of women and particular reference is made of their eyes (not their hair) it seems reasonable to presume that it is eyes not hair that is the principal feature of beauty in women. So what’s funny about that? When you’ve stopped laughing perhaps you could have a go at answering my questions. . . . . . . . .

Show me some a verse in the Qu’ran or even an hadith from the companions that says that a woman’s head hair is the or even a principal feature of beauty?

Why aren’t a Muslimah’s eyes aren’t covered as they are a mentioned as principal feature of beauty?

Why Muslimah’s do not follow the Sunnah by wearing the style of head-cover that Muhammad approved of as was worn by his wives?

AND as a matter of interest, I would much like to know

When did that distinctive style that we see today worn by Muslimah’s in the west and describe as the hijab first appear?

Who invented it?

PS I know hijab can be used as a general term to describe any type of head covering but (I suggest) in common day use in the west it means a head, ears and neck covering garment.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-21-2009, 01:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Joke – please tell me what I said that you find funny?
your integrity perhaps?


I know that.
well actually you dont seem to at all, otherwise you would have seen right through my point, which you don't seem to want to look into.
it is referring to the eyes of the women of paradise, not earth. you even posted an interpretation of the verse, which quite clearly haven't read.

It was suggested that the reason the hijab is worn was to satisfy the requirements of verse 24:31, specifically to - guard their modesty; not display their beauty and ornaments.

The question followed – “where in lslamic text is it stated that head hair is a principal feature of women’s beauty or that displaying hair is an act of immodesty.
it doesn't actually have to because you see the very quote you have so eagerly posted confirms that that a womans hair is part of her beauty-as i have higlighted-, hence her need to cover it up.

i hope this clear to you now.


So what’s funny about that? When you’ve stopped laughing perhaps you could have a go at answering my questions
when you open your mind a little, maybe you can see that i am.


Why aren’t a Muslimah’s eyes aren’t covered as they are a mentioned as principal feature of beauty?
only after you tell me what would happen if someone was to cover their eyes.

Why Muslimah’s do not follow the Sunnah by wearing the style of head-cover that Muhammad approved of as was worn by his wives?
ignorance?



AND as a matter of interest, I would much like to know

When did that distinctive style that we see today worn by Muslimah’s in the west and describe as the hijab first appear?

Who invented it?[
im not sure, you seem to know though, perhaps you could tell us.
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Thinker
04-21-2009, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
your integrity perhaps?
You say that my integrity is a joke, produce the evidence or reveal yourself as scurrilous for making unfounded accusations.


format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
well actually you dont seem to at all, otherwise you would have seen right through my point, which you don't seem to want to look into. it is referring to the eyes of the women of paradise, not earth. you even posted an interpretation of the verse, which quite clearly haven't read.
So show me some evidence from Islamic text that hair is a principal feature of a woman’s beauty


format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
it doesn't actually have to because you see the very quote you have so eagerly posted confirms that that a womans hair is part of her beauty-as i have higlighted-, hence her need to cover it up.
What are you talking about – there is no mention of hair!!

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
when you open your mind a little, maybe you can see that i am.
I think you should look to yourself before suggesting I am not open minded.
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Najm
04-21-2009, 03:16 PM
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Lets not forget about Taqwa!!

Opposite genders ARE seperated.

One wont be staring(gaze!) at the oppposite genders anyway. Hence wont be looking at them let alone their eyes. Allah is Al-'Adl (The Just)

In English language words changes all the time; their words lose their meanings and maybe even take new ones. i.e In Islam modesty/beauty means a lot more than what the west like it to be! Moreover your moral standards are different than others. For yourself beauty/modesty means something different than what i think.

All these questions, are great, they are questions some of us muslims know and other we dont. Lets not forget at one time the earth was flat. Never will a mankind be smarter than the creator.

If one has taqwa, if one believes in the Allah (Subhana WaTa'ala)'s commandmants, then one surrenders.

Allah
(Subhana WaTa'ala) knows whats best for us. And when humans trully accept that, these questions become irrelevant.

A Muslims only goal in life is to reach Jannah. Hijab is about modesty and.....

"Al-Hayaa (modesty & bashfulness) is from Imam (belief) and Imam is in Al-Jannah (the Paradise)." [At-Tirmidhi - Saheeh]

Would you like to give up Jannah, because you wanna show your hair..........

"Of the people of Hell there are two types whom I have never seen, the one possessing whips like the tail of an Ox and they flog people with them. The second one, women who would be naked in spite of their being dressed, who are seduced (to wrong paths) and seduce others. Their hair is high like the humps (of camels). These women would not get into Al-Jannah (the Paradise) and they would not perceive its odor, although its fragrance can be perceived from such and such a distance." [Saheeh Muslim]

Whatever I have written that is true is from Allah alone while anything that is false is from myself and shaytan. Subhanaka Allahummah wa bihamdika, ash hadu an la illaha illa anta, astaghfiruka wa atuboo ilayk

FiAmaaniAllah
Reply

أبو سليمان عمر
04-21-2009, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Show me some a verse in the Qu’ran or even an hadith from the companions that says that a woman’s head hair is the or even a principal feature of beauty?

Read this post and your Question should be answered

Why aren’t a Muslimah’s eyes aren’t covered as they are a mentioned as principal feature of beauty?

Some dont think it is important some dont want to some dont like it who knows why we will leave that to Allah to judge them

Why Muslimah’s do not follow the Sunnah by wearing the style of head-cover that Muhammad approved of as was worn by his wives?
style was to to cover up this is not a fashion just cover up what ever a women wears as long as it is covering it is hijab if what they wear today covers them up it is hijab

AND as a matter of interest, I would much like to know

When did that distinctive style that we see today worn by Muslimah’s in the west and describe as the hijab first appear?

What does it matter it doesnt it is hijab and it covers that is what matters .

Who invented it?
dont know and or care it covers :)

PS I know hijab can be used as a general term to describe any type of head covering but (I suggest) in common day use in the west it means a head, ears and neck covering garment.
well it sure seems as you dont but any way i will not waste another min with you on this topic if you want look at all previous post and all you Question should be answered as it seems you keep repating your self
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Thinker
04-21-2009, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Najm
In English language words changes all the time; their words lose their meanings and maybe even take new ones. i.e In Islam modesty/beauty means a lot more than what the west like it to be! Moreover your moral standards are different than others. For yourself beauty/modesty means something different than what i think.
I agree, meanings of words change and not only in the English language. But hair is hair and nobody has suggested that hair meant something different and nobody has shown me any text stating that displaying head hair is immodest or flaunting beauty. And, nobody has countered my suggestion that the best example of covering is that worn by the Prophets wives and that was NOT in the style of the modern day hijab.

I have consequrntly formed the view that wearing the hijab has got nothing to do with guarding modesty or complying with verse 24:31 but is done to distinguish the Muslim from the unbelievers. . . . . . .

Her clothing must not resemble the clothing of the unbelievers. This is a general ruling of the ‘Sharia’h which ‎encompasses not only dress but also such things as manners, customs, religious practices and festivities, transactions, ‎etc. Indeed, dissimilarity with unbelievers is a precedent that was established by the first generation of Islam.
‘Abdullah ‎ibn ‘Amr ibn Al-’Aas said, “The Prophet (saw) saw me wearing two saffron colored garments, so he said: ‎‎“Indeed, these are the clothes of ‘Kuffar’ (unbelievers), so do not wear them.” [Sahih Muslim]‎
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Thinker
04-21-2009, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
well it sure seems as you dont but any way i will not waste another min with you on this topic if you want look at all previous post and all you Question should be answered as it seems you keep repating your self
Sorry about that - couldn't you just show me where it says that displaying hair is immodest?
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Tony
04-21-2009, 10:35 PM
In this instance your reason why the Mulsimah must wear hijab isn’t based upon agreed valid Islamic text or your own research, it is (I suspect) something which you have been taught.[/QUOTE]

Thinker I am not sure about Muslimah must wear hijab, although understand why they should, but coming from an area that is very openly prejudiced against women that do wear hijab, I just really respect them. Its not something i have been taught but honestly my own opinion. I would not consider a woman who does not wear hujab to be less pious than those who do, but it is such a strong statement of faith to wear it.
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Najm
04-21-2009, 11:14 PM
Peace....

Bro TKTony, It IS an obligation to wear the hijab!

"...that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (ordinarily) appear thereof..." (24:31)

Scholars from the major legal schools (madhahib)
Imam Abu Bakr Jassas, Hanafi scholar: "Our scholars say that this [exemption] denotes the woman's face and hands"


Imam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi, Maliki scholar: "Since the normal case is that a womanï's face and hands are revealed by the force of habit and for worship, as this is required in salat and hajj, then it is appropriate to say that the exemption [in 24:31] applies to these"


Imam Fakhr ad-Din Razi, Shafi'i scholar: "Since the showing of the face and hands is necessary, the jurists had no choice but to agree that they are not awra"


Imam Ahmad ibn Qudama, Hanbali scholar: "[I prefer this opinion] because necessity demands that the face should be uncovered for buying and selling, and the hands should be uncovered for giving and taking"


Imam Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm, Zahiri scholar: "The part of the woman's body which has to be concealed is the whole of it except her face and her hands"

Therefore "Ordinarily appear" means ONLY face and hands......

Ask yourself if one is only allowed to show face and hands, would you be able to see the hair?


Peace...
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Cabdullahi
04-22-2009, 12:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

Why aren’t a Muslimah’s eyes aren’t covered as they are a mentioned as principal feature of beauty?
Come on dawg!! its not a game of blind man's bluff !!






i think the sisters would need eyes to see.....

''and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms,''
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-22-2009, 07:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You say that my integrity is a joke, produce the evidence or reveal yourself as scurrilous for making unfounded accusations.
no need to, you've already done that your self!

So show me some evidence from Islamic text that hair is a principal feature of a woman’s beauty
i have, but yet again you don't wish to see it.

look, ill be nice and explain it one more time:
you don't need for something to be specifically mentioned, in order for that thing to be known.
i mean go read some poems for example. so many times the poet would describe something without specifically mentioning it, but by his/her descriptions of that thing, the reader knows what he/she is saying.

but im glad you have finally understood why her eyes aren't to be covered!


What are you talking about – there is no mention of hair!!
i didnt say it did! their beauty, obviously includes their hair, otherwise no need to cover it.

I think you should look to yourself before suggesting I am not open minded.
been there done that.
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Thinker
04-22-2009, 09:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Najm
[I]Peace....
Bro TKTony, It IS an obligation to wear the hijab!
Listing so called 'scholars' who say it is obligatory isn't good enough (for me) as I am sure there are scholars who would disagree.

From my own research I concluded that it is not obligatory for Muslimah to cover her hair, I have presented that argument in this thread please tell me where my argument is wrong by showing me a verse of the Qu'ran that suggests that displaying hair contravenes 24:31 or any other verse. If you don't know ask those scholars that you list who say it is obligatory to show you (me) the evidence.
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Thinker
04-22-2009, 09:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullahii
Come on dawg!! its not a game of blind man's bluff !!

i think the sisters would need eyes to see.....

''and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms,''
their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms . . . Yusuf Ali

Define apparent?

Could they not wear sunglasses?
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nightingale
04-22-2009, 09:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Listing so called 'scholars' who say it is obligatory isn't good enough (for me) as I am sure there are scholars who would disagree.

From my own research I concluded that it is not obligatory for Muslimah to cover her hair, I have presented that argument in this thread please tell me where my argument is wrong by showing me a verse of the Qu'ran that suggests that displaying hair contravenes 24:31 or any other verse. If you don't know ask those scholars that you list who say it is obligatory to show you (me) the evidence.
Is not 24:31 adequate?
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Thinker
04-22-2009, 09:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Na7lah
i didnt say it did! their beauty, obviously includes their hair, otherwise no need to cover it.
Use of the word 'obviously' comes when you have no evidence to argue with!
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-22-2009, 09:56 AM
:sl:
comments like that come only when evidence is denied!

Listing so called 'scholars' who say it is obligatory isn't good enough (for me) as I am sure there are scholars who would disagree.
yes, key word: for you
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Thinker
04-22-2009, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nightingale
Is not 24:31 adequate?
With respect - NO.

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss

The key phrases/words in 24:31 are:

lower their gaze
guard their modesty;
not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear
draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their thereof;
not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.

To comply with that one must define:
Modesty
Which feature(s) define a woman’s beauty
Ordinarily appear
Ornaments.

In defining the above your ‘scholars’ have somehow concluded that hair is the principal feature which defines a woman’s beauty and displaying it would be immodest. I can find nothing in Islamic text that picks out hair as the principal feature of a woman’s beauty and that displaying hair is immodest but I am not a scholar so I ask here on this forum for someone to show me the evidence.

Some things that do seem obvious is Muslim women shouldn’t wear makeup or jewellery and I see lots of Muslim women wearing the hijab and lipstick etc.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-22-2009, 10:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Could they not wear sunglasses?
oh yes, that would have been convenient 1400 years ago!
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Cabdullahi
04-22-2009, 10:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms . . . Yusuf Ali

Define apparent?

Could they not wear sunglasses?
there was no sunglasses my dear it was 1400 years ago.......I agree with you that eyes are considered a beauty but when your suggesting blind folds and sun glasses it just shows that a human being knows nothing but allah knows better....

The first and foremost thing is that the hijab is an act of obedience more than anything else and by carrying out this act, alot of vital bonuses come along with it.......its a protection, purification and etc.

Now regarding the minimizing of the beauty ornaments,the hijab is perfect because it reduces beauty efficiently without causing a restriction to the woman, no blind folds..... no zorro mask

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons when abroad that is convenient (33:59)

you the great thinker offered that blind folds or sun glasses would be used but is that convenient? ask yourself my dear :)

but why must they wear it......here is the answer

that they should be known and as such not molested. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (33:59)
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Thinker
04-22-2009, 10:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Na7lah
Sunglasses - oh yes, that would have been convenient 1400 years ago!
1400 years ago they wore a shawl which they could draw over their faces and of course they would lower their gaze possibly because the eyes are the principal feature of beauty :D
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Thinker
04-22-2009, 10:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullahii
The first and foremost thing is that the hijab is an act of obedience more than anything else and by carrying out this act, alot of vital bonuses come along with it.......its a protection, purification and etc.
Obedience to whom? In all of God's revelations to Muhammad never once did He suggest hair should be covered and Muhammad did not ask his wives to wear a covering that totally encased the head and neck exposing just the face (as the modern day western style hijab does). God asked for modesty, displaying hair is not immodest. Without evidence to the contrary I must conclude that it is an act of obedience but that they are not obeying 24:31 they are obeying the hadith that commands that Muslim men and women must wear clothing that defines them as Muslim.

Her clothing must not resemble the clothing of the unbelievers. This is a general ruling of the ‘Sharia’h which ‎encompasses not only dress but also such things as manners, customs, religious practices and festivities, transactions, ‎etc. Indeed, dissimilarity with unbelievers is a precedent that was established by the first generation of Islam.
‘Abdullah ‎ibn ‘Amr ibn Al-’Aas said, “The Prophet (saw) saw me wearing two saffron colored garments, so he said: ‎‎“Indeed, these are the clothes of ‘Kuffar’ (unbelievers), so do not wear them.” [Sahih Muslim]‎
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Thinker
04-22-2009, 12:02 PM
I sent of some email to manufacturers / sellers of hijab asking where the current style originated, here is one reply:

As Salamu ALaykum

Difficult question but As I am living in Egypt 25 years ago there were only the square hijab style which folded as a triangle and put on head.
As many women started to wear hijab during the past years we started learning from the gulf women the way they wrap hijab which is a rectangular shape, and as time passed and women always even when wearing hijab wanted to look beautiful they started making many different styles of hijab colours styles and wraps.
Most wraps and styles do not comply with Muslim dress code

Regards

She seems to be describing the current style of hijab is an adornment!
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-22-2009, 12:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
1400 years ago they wore a shawl which they could draw over their faces and of course they would lower their gaze possibly because the eyes are the principal feature of beauty :D
or maybe because the eyes are the "windows" to the soul? :-/ i.e if a guy/girl let thier gazes "wonder" it'll lead to other forbidden acts.


and since you asked for it:
Al-Jawhari said: "The Jilbab is the outer wrapper. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing. Muhammad bin Sirin said, "I asked `Ubaydah As-Salmani about the Ayah:

[يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ]

(to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) He covered his face and head, with just his left eye showing.''
happy now?

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I sent of some email to manufacturers / sellers of hijab asking where the current style originated, here is one reply:

As Salamu ALaykum

Difficult question but As I am living in Egypt 25 years ago there were only the square hijab style which folded as a triangle and put on head.
As many women started to wear hijab during the past years we started learning from the gulf women the way they wrap hijab which is a rectangular shape, and as time passed and women always even when wearing hijab wanted to look beautiful they started making many different styles of hijab colours styles and wraps.
Most wraps and styles do not comply with Muslim dress code

Regards

She seems to be describing the current style of hijab is an adornment!
but she also said:
Most wraps and styles do not comply with Muslim dress code
Reply

Thinker
04-22-2009, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Na7lah
Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing. Muhammad bin Sirin said,
:
Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said . . . . is that the best you can do, who is Ali bin Abi Talhah he is not in my hadith database? And he said that Allah commanded the believing women – no he didn’t Allah never commanded any woman, Allah made revelation to Muhammad. So if he made this revelation to Muhammad why isn’t it a verse in the Qur’an and why didn’t Muhammad have his wives cover everything but one eye. Everything but one eye!! Come on, surely you can do better than that!!
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burdenofbeing
04-22-2009, 02:23 PM
one question, if in the country or culture the muslims live in hair is what must ordinarily appear, is it still not permissable to remove the scarf?
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Najm
04-22-2009, 06:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
one question, if in the country or culture the muslims live in hair is what must ordinarily appear, is it still not permissable to remove the scarf?
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu
This is where things go wrong, translations, definitions, our understanding etc etc.....

"Ordinarily appear" in our english language means what is normal to society i.e. what everyone does. Thats our thinking. But thats not how you read the Quran etc and define things. You have to understand the context, the reason, the time, the objective, what our Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi WaSalam), what the madhabs say etc etc And if you dont

and we take "our own definition" then...

If one lives somewhere in south spain, where they have nothing on and its normal. What would you consider
"Ordinarily appear?" Does this mean its permissble to have nothing on?

Anyways, i was just explaining just in general, nothing personal.

In Islam "Ordinarily appear" has been defined as face and hands.

Ask yourself if one is only allowed to show face and hands, would you be able to see the hair?

Let us not follow what people and culture teaches us, lets follow what ISLAM teaches us


FiAmaaniAllah
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Mujahidah4Allah
04-22-2009, 07:11 PM
:sl:

is hair wasn't part of beauty then why would one go to the salon get it dyed, straightened/curled etc etc, certain books I've come across have mentioned for example how the male likes the fragrance of the womans hair even ... when a woman sees another man and tends to flick her hair just to attract him... point it i personally see it as an attraction which is different to keeping ones hair in a reasonable condition...

wa/salam
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Tony
04-22-2009, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Najm
Peace....

Bro TKTony, It IS an obligation to wear the hijab!

"...that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (ordinarily) appear thereof..." (24:31)

Scholars from the major legal schools (madhahib)
Imam Abu Bakr Jassas, Hanafi scholar: "Our scholars say that this [exemption] denotes the woman's face and hands"


Imam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi, Maliki scholar: "Since the normal case is that a womanï's face and hands are revealed by the force of habit and for worship, as this is required in salat and hajj, then it is appropriate to say that the exemption [in 24:31] applies to these"


Imam Fakhr ad-Din Razi, Shafi'i scholar: "Since the showing of the face and hands is necessary, the jurists had no choice but to agree that they are not awra"


Imam Ahmad ibn Qudama, Hanbali scholar: "[I prefer this opinion] because necessity demands that the face should be uncovered for buying and selling, and the hands should be uncovered for giving and taking"


Imam Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm, Zahiri scholar: "The part of the woman's body which has to be concealed is the whole of it except her face and her hands"

Therefore "Ordinarily appear" means ONLY face and hands......

Ask yourself if one is only allowed to show face and hands, would you be able to see the hair?


Peace...

Many thanks for this, now I can tell Thinker it is something I have been taught. Peace Najm and Thinker
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Thinker
04-23-2009, 12:09 PM
[QUOTE=Najm;1129666In Islam "Ordinarily appear" has been defined as face and hands.
[/QUOTE]

Hi,

Would you show me the verse which defines 'ordinarily appear" as face and hands.

Thanks
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Thinker
04-23-2009, 12:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mujahidah4Allah
:sl:

is hair wasn't part of beauty then why would one go to the salon get it dyed, straightened/curled etc etc, certain books I've come across have mentioned for example how the male likes the fragrance of the womans hair even ... when a woman sees another man and tends to flick her hair just to attract him... point it i personally see it as an attraction which is different to keeping ones hair in a reasonable condition...

wa/salam
I never said a girls hair wasn't beautiful, I am sure you can have beautiful hair or ugly hair and I am sure hands, feet or any part of a girl could be defined as beautiful or ugly but. So you either cover everything just in case it's beautiful or you identify what is commonly regarded as the principal features of beauty and in that regard I suggest that the context here is the features which might excite men, I suggest hair is not one of them. And, of course beauty is very subjective; it was Shakespeare who coined the phrase “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” Next we come to ‘dress modestly’ again, I suggest, that displaying hair is not immodest.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-23-2009, 12:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said . . . . is that the best you can do, who is Ali bin Abi Talhah he is not in my hadith database?
So? maybe you should add him then.

And he said that Allah commanded the believing women – no he didn’t Allah never commanded any woman, Allah made revelation to Muhammad.
and who do we follow. would you like me to post up some verses?

So if he made this revelation to Muhammad why isn’t it a verse in the Qur’an and why didn’t Muhammad have his wives cover everything but one eye.
Probably because what i posted was an interpretation of one of the verses concerning the hijab. Not the revelation its self.

Everything but one eye!! Come on, surely you can do better than that!!
point being?


format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I never said a girls hair wasn't beautiful, I am sure you can have beautiful hair or ugly hair and I am sure hands, feet or any part of a girl could be defined as beautiful or ugly but. So you either cover everything just in case it's beautiful or you identify what is commonly regarded as the principal features of beauty and in that regard
OR you just trust that god knows the nature of his own creation

I suggest that the context here is the features which might excite men, I suggest hair is not one of them.
well its time you took a reality check!

And, of course beauty is very subjective; it was Shakespeare who coined the phrase “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
thank you! you confirm the virtue of the hijab beautifully.


Hi,
Would you show me the verse which defines 'ordinarily appear" as face and hands.
Thanks
why do you insist on wanting evidence from the quran only. this isn't the only source of Islamic law.

Next we come to ‘dress modestly’ again, I suggest, that displaying hair is not immodest.
do you know what makes your "anti-Islam campaigns" so hilarious! its the fact that you think the Quran and sunnah should be his way or the highway and then come and tries convincing Muslims that their religion is all wrong, basically state that our scholars have no idea and in the process make it sound as if you are one yourself, have no idea how an Islamic ruling is derived heck even a Muslim layman doesn't! and to put the icing on the cake, you're not even a Muslim yourself! quite a show, don't you think?
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burdenofbeing
04-23-2009, 01:04 PM
I believe the key part regarding wearing the hijab is "..they should draw their veils over their bosoms" Veil being part of the contemporary wearing style in arabia is not important. Allah orders by Quran that, what the veil already covers should be extended down to the bosoms. I think it clearly outlines hijab.
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burdenofbeing
04-23-2009, 01:06 PM
If we were to trust shampoo commercials, hair is THE most exciting part of women :P
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GreyKode
04-23-2009, 01:15 PM
^burden you make a great point.
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Thinker
04-23-2009, 01:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Na7lah
do you know what makes your "anti-Islam campaigns" so hilarious! its the fact that you think the Quran and sunnah should be his way or the highway and then come and tries convincing Muslims that their religion is all wrong, basically state that our scholars have no idea and in the process make it sound as if you are one yourself, have no idea how an Islamic ruling is derived heck even a Muslim layman doesn't! and to put the icing on the cake, you're not even a Muslim yourself! quite a show, don't you think?

Regarding the questionable hadith you posted . . . . .Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said . . . .

Can you tell me is this hadith, sahih, hasan or daif?


I asked . . . . if he made this revelation to Muhammad why isn’t it a verse in the Qur’an and why didn’t Muhammad have his wives cover everything but one eye.

You replied . . . . [Probably because what I posted was an intepretion of one of the verses concerning the hijab. Not the revelation its self.

Would you show me the verse you speak of?



You have reverted back to issuing insults. You have accused me of lacking integrity yet refused to show any evidence supporting the accusation, now you accuse me a carrying out an ‘anti-Islamic campaign’ and of ‘trying to convince Muslims that there religion is wrong’. Making defamatory accusations without producing any evidence shows, I suggest, a lack of integrity on your part. Are you suggesting that because I don’t accept Islamic text without question I am anti-Islamic? Is it because, in this thread you have failed to adequately answer the questions that you accuse me of ‘trying to convince Muslims that there religion is wrong’. Are you suggesting that because I am not Muslim I am not entitled to ask questions in my attempt to understand why Muslims say and do what they say? There is a suggested 2 million Muslims living in my homeland and a belief that learning about each other will lead to greater understanding an tolerance, I believe that alone entitles me to ask questions and give opinion.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-24-2009, 06:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Regarding the questionable hadith you posted . . . . .Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said . . . .

Can you tell me is this hadith, sahih, hasan or daif?
nope, because it aint a hadith, its interpretation

I asked . . . . if he made this revelation to Muhammad why isn’t it a verse in the Qur’an and why didn’t Muhammad have his wives cover everything but one eye.

You replied . . . . [Probably because what I posted was an intepretion of one of the verses concerning the hijab. Not the revelation its self.

Would you show me the verse you speak of?
33: 59

You have reverted back to issuing insults. You have accused me of lacking integrity yet refused to show any evidence supporting the accusation, now you accuse me a carrying out an ‘anti-Islamic campaign’ and of ‘trying to convince Muslims that there religion is wrong’. Making defamatory accusations without producing any evidence shows, I suggest, a lack of integrity on your part. Are you suggesting that because I don’t accept Islamic text without question I am anti-Islamic? Is it because, in this thread you have failed to adequately answer the questions that you accuse me of ‘trying to convince Muslims that there religion is wrong’. Are you suggesting that because I am not Muslim I am not entitled to ask questions in my attempt to understand why Muslims say and do what they say? There is a suggested 2 million Muslims living in my homeland and a belief that learning about each other will lead to greater understanding an tolerance, I believe that alone entitles me to ask questions and give opinion.
whatever makes you sleep at night.


@thread starter: barakallahu feek, interesting vids. although if i were in the shoes of the sister in the first vid, id set up shop next door to them, compete with them, steal all their customers and kill their business off!
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-24-2009, 05:24 PM
edit
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Thinker
04-24-2009, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Na7lah
Regarding the questionable hadith you posted . . . . .Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said . . . .

I asked . . . . if he made this revelation to Muhammad why isn’t it a verse in the Qur’an and why didn’t Muhammad have his wives cover everything but one eye.
You replied . . . . Probably because what I posted was an interpretation of one of the verses concerning the hijab. Not the revelation its self.

I asked . . Would you show me the verse you speak of?

You replied 33:59
Here is the Sisters in Islam’s interpretation

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all (other) believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments (when in public): this will be more conducive to their being recognized (as decent women) and not annoyed. But (withal,) God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace! (al-Ahzab 33:59, Asad transl.)

The spirit of this ayat, is to dress in a manner that will signal 'unavailability'.

The context of this verse, it has been suggested, is that some of the hypocrites were molesting women in the street and they argued that they had thought the women were slaves and thus 'molestable'. Consequently, Muslim women were to dress to distinguish themselves as modest and chaste and not 'molestable'. Now obviously it would be a much better (and more Islamic) society to raise men not to molest women, than to allow men to consider molesting unveiled women permissible. One could argue that this command is context and time specific, and as such, dress is used as a marker of Muslim identity and not necessarily an indicator of the moral status of the woman herself.

http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/ind...585&Itemid=178
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syilla
04-25-2009, 09:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Here is the Sisters in Islam’s interpretation

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all (other) believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments (when in public): this will be more conducive to their being recognized (as decent women) and not annoyed. But (withal,) God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace! (al-Ahzab 33:59, Asad transl.)

The spirit of this ayat, is to dress in a manner that will signal 'unavailability'.

The context of this verse, it has been suggested, is that some of the hypocrites were molesting women in the street and they argued that they had thought the women were slaves and thus 'molestable'. Consequently, Muslim women were to dress to distinguish themselves as modest and chaste and not 'molestable'. Now obviously it would be a much better (and more Islamic) society to raise men not to molest women, than to allow men to consider molesting unveiled women permissible. One could argue that this command is context and time specific, and as such, dress is used as a marker of Muslim identity and not necessarily an indicator of the moral status of the woman herself.

http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/ind...585&Itemid=178
Thinker!!!! before you copy paste anything... you should know that... sisters in islam fatwa....is not acceptable to most practise malaysian muslims. Most of them are daughters of political leader... And of course they don't refer to the scholars

:uuh:
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burdenofbeing
04-25-2009, 10:19 AM
I agree that men should be raised such. when my wife and I went to umrah, even a hijab didn't do much to order respect for my wife. she had to also wear a veil.
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Thinker
04-25-2009, 11:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
Thinker!!!! before you copy paste anything... you should know that... sisters in islam fatwa....is not acceptable to most practise malaysian muslims. Most of them are daughters of political leader... And of course they don't refer to the scholars

:uuh:
Thank you for the information. There are so many ‘scholars,’ groups and other sources of information and no universally recognised rating (that I know of) of who is more reliable than whom.

You use the word fatwa, I presumed what was written was their interpretation, we all read and look at evidence and interpret what we see, how does one differentiate between someone’s interpretation and a fatwa and whose fatwa carries greater authority.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-25-2009, 11:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Here is the Sisters in Islam’s interpretation

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all (other) believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments (when in public): this will be more conducive to their being recognized (as decent women) and not annoyed. But (withal,) God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace! (al-Ahzab 33:59, Asad transl.)

The spirit of this ayat, is to dress in a manner that will signal 'unavailability'.

The context of this verse, it has been suggested, is that some of the hypocrites were molesting women in the street and they argued that they had thought the women were slaves and thus 'molestable'. Consequently, Muslim women were to dress to distinguish themselves as modest and chaste and not 'molestable'. Now obviously it would be a much better (and more Islamic) society to raise men not to molest women, than to allow men to consider molesting unveiled women permissible. One could argue that this command is context and time specific, and as such, dress is used as a marker of Muslim identity and not necessarily an indicator of the moral status of the woman herself.

http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/ind...585&Itemid=178
the only thing i seem to see in that, is a poor excuse that the hijab shouldn't be worn in this day and age. rubbish!

and even if it were true, again it is still rubbish because the whole molestation thingee that was referred to, occurs in this day and age as well, even with strict laws. perhaps not physically, but you still get sicko pervs out there.. at the end of the day, its the girl that will get the bad end of the stick,
you do raise men not to molest women, its practically natural in people whether Muslim or not. A form of it may be lowering your gaze, etc. but inherent in the male, is his attraction to physicall beauty, and since we are trying to avoid her getting the bad end of the stick,-and god knows that he dont look at her cos he cares for her- we tell her to cover up, because being the visual critter that he is, it is almost inevitable that his gaze will slip.



format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
You use the word fatwa, I presumed what was written was their interpretation, we all read and look at evidence and interpret what we see, how does one differentiate between someone’s interpretation and a fatwa and whose fatwa carries greater authority.
firstly, because allah says: so ask those who know if you don't know. "those who know" refers to the people of knowledge.

that and the fact that one has to study under teachers-just like any other subject. i mean you dont really qualify to be a Doc of you haven't gone to uni, etc. same applies with being an Islamic scholar- i,e you study under teachers.

secondly, you really cant compare the laymen to a scholar can you now? really, logically it isn't even acceptable, let alone realistically. i mean you can tell the difference without extensive research. its just known amoung the people who is a scholar and who isnt. like a preist compared to an ordinary chirstian.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-25-2009, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
I agree that men should be raised such. when my wife and I went to umrah, even a hijab didn't do much to order respect for my wife. she had to also wear a veil.
they are---> lowering his gaze.
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burdenofbeing
04-25-2009, 12:54 PM
well, yes but they obviously aren't :)
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-25-2009, 01:17 PM
:sl:
but whats that got to do with the hijab being not suitable for this day and age cos apparently men arent taught not to molest? (as stated in the article)...
its taught, even if it doesn't occur, hence the hijab still stays on.
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burdenofbeing
04-25-2009, 01:21 PM
I'm not saying it shouldn't. and even if I did, it doesn't matter, as it is obviously ordered in qur'an.
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Thinker
04-25-2009, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
I'm not saying it shouldn't. and even if I did, it doesn't matter, as it is obviously ordered in qur'an.
"obviously!" - there's that word again
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burdenofbeing
04-26-2009, 05:40 AM
Why I think so? it's back there in this thread.
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Najm
04-26-2009, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
"obviously!" - there's that word again


Peace!

Its obvious to those who are willing to understand. Its more easier to accept for those who have Taqwa!



Peace
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 03:48 PM
lol you all still entertain this guy Summun bukmun AAumyun fahum la yarjiAAoona i mean after 8 pages of explain anyone should understand. Anyhow you all hav fun
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idk
04-26-2009, 05:15 PM
Okay basically I am a muslim girl who doesnt wear hijab only because before I was physically abused into wearing it, and not because I dont believe in it. I want to wear it, inshallah in this year, but i want it to come from within, because i never experienced that sense of wearing it with your head held high.

Thinker, you are male, i presume, and the very fact your are arguing for females to take off their hijab is actually sexist. Has it ever come to you that these girls are comfortable wearing hijab, the same way some girls are comfortable in a bikini. No matter how much you try to tame a lion, it will always be a lion, it will always hunger for meat. You are a male, and no matter how civilized you make out you are, deep down you are a man, and there is no denying you would love to see a world full of girls bearing all. This applies to all males, btw. So, basically, a girl in a veil would not get wolf whistles, would not get touched by strangers ( dont deny that this happens, i see it every day ), would not get harassed. When a girl in a headscarf comes down the street, a man instinctively moves to let her pass. You are reluctant to touch such a respectable girl. And, if by accident, you do, you apologize genuinely. You just cant help it. But if a girl comes by in shorts, a man will most probably give her the once over and then shout out a few things. Does this not occur to you men as sexist? Yes, of course some girls like it, but that does not excuse the fact that you are treating the woman the way a hungry dog treats a plate of meat.


And of course the hair is a part of the beauty. Why else do boys love it when a girl flicks her hair around? Why else do people constantly fuss about wether their hair looks good ? Why else do people spend hundreds to make it look good?


And, by the way, by trying to prove yourself right, you have accidently proved yourself wrong.
The truth will always shine through :P
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-27-2009, 07:54 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by idk
Okay basically I am a muslim girl who doesnt wear hijab only because before I was physically abused into wearing it, and not because I dont believe in it.
I want to wear it, inshallah in this year, but i want it to come from within, because i never experienced that sense of wearing it with your head held high.
see, i grew up with that whole "girls are inferior" bs mentality (for a completely different reason) but you know what? i figured why should i let those who see me as something inferior get the better of me and ruin Islams reputation for me. i know that what Islam legislates is good, and no matter who or what teaches me otherwise these same people will not kill my chances of paradise for me :D they can go down, but they aint dragging me down with them :D
so yh...dont worry what people do, cos what they do to you and how you react are two different things...don't let them be your reasons for disobeying allah...cos if thats how they treat you, be better than them in the sight of Allah and dont sink to their level by committing sins because of them

all the best :)



Thinker, you are male, i presume, and the very fact your are arguing for females to take off their hijab is actually sexist. Has it ever come to you that these girls are comfortable wearing hijab, the same way some girls are comfortable in a bikini. No matter how much you try to tame a lion, it will always be a lion, it will always hunger for meat. You are a male, and no matter how civilized you make out you are, deep down you are a man, and there is no denying you would love to see a world full of girls bearing all. This applies to all males, btw. So, basically, a girl in a veil would not get wolf whistles, would not get touched by strangers ( dont deny that this happens, i see it every day ), would not get harassed. When a girl in a headscarf comes down the street, a man instinctively moves to let her pass. You are reluctant to touch such a respectable girl. And, if by accident, you do, you apologize genuinely. You just cant help it. But if a girl comes by in shorts, a man will most probably give her the once over and then shout out a few things. Does this not occur to you men as sexist? Yes, of course some girls like it, but that does not excuse the fact that you are treating the woman the way a hungry dog treats a plate of meat.


And of course the hair is a part of the beauty. Why else do boys love it when a girl flicks her hair around? Why else do people constantly fuss about wether their hair looks good ? Why else do people spend hundreds to make it look good?


And, by the way, by trying to prove yourself right, you have accidently proved yourself wrong.
The truth will always shine through :P
mashallah! loved that sis :statisfie
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syilla
04-27-2009, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Thank you for the information. There are so many ‘scholars,’ groups and other sources of information and no universally recognised rating (that I know of) of who is more reliable than whom.

You use the word fatwa, I presumed what was written was their interpretation, we all read and look at evidence and interpret what we see, how does one differentiate between someone’s interpretation and a fatwa and whose fatwa carries greater authority.
there are ratings...and probably you can ask the muslims around
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Thinker
04-27-2009, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by idk
Thinker, you are male, i presume, and the very fact your are arguing for females to take off their hijab is actually sexist.
Re-read my posts, none of my posts have argued for anyone to take of their hijab. I have argued for truth and have suggested hypocrisy. If anything I have argued that, if you believe the interpretations of the hadith quoted here, the Muslimah should cover her face including her eyes. And I have argued that because there is no agreed Islamic text which specifically defines hair as the principal feature of beauty the hijab is not worn to cover beauty and promote modesty it is worn to comply with requirement to be different from non-believers . . . .

Her clothing must not resemble the clothing of the unbelievers. This is a general ruling of the ‘Sharia’h which ‎encompasses not only dress but also such things as manners, customs, religious practices and festivities, transactions, ‎etc. Indeed, dissimilarity with unbelievers is a precedent that was established by the first generation of Islam.
‘Abdullah ‎ibn ‘Amr ibn Al-’Aas said, “The Prophet (saw) saw me wearing two saffron colored garments, so he said: ‎‎“Indeed, these are the clothes of ‘Kuffar’ (unbelievers), so do not wear them.” [Sahih Muslim]‎


This thread started with a video and a woman being interviewed giving reasons why she wore the hijab and later posts suggesting it was to comply with Sura 24:31. I have argued as above and 8 pages later NOBODY has produced anything to counter my argument. You (all) have been brainwashed into believing that covering your hair is what is required to comply with 24:31. My argument is measured and logical, you don’t like my argument and because you can’t produce anything to counter it you get angry with me and start issuing insults calling me anti-Islamic etc.

PS. When I use the word ‘you,’ here I don’t mean you in particular I mean all of those who posted here telling me that wearing the hijab was to comply with 24:31
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Najm
04-27-2009, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Re-read my posts, none of my posts have argued for anyone to take of their hijab. I have argued for truth and have suggested hypocrisy. If anything I have argued that, if you believe the interpretations of the hadith quoted here, the Muslimah should cover her face including her eyes. And I have argued that because there is no agreed Islamic text which specifically defines hair as the principal feature of beauty the hijab is not worn to cover beauty and promote modesty it is worn to comply with requirement to be different from non-believers . . . .

Her clothing must not resemble the clothing of the unbelievers. This is a general ruling of the ‘Sharia’h which ‎encompasses not only dress but also such things as manners, customs, religious practices and festivities, transactions, ‎etc. Indeed, dissimilarity with unbelievers is a precedent that was established by the first generation of Islam.
‘Abdullah ‎ibn ‘Amr ibn Al-’Aas said, “The Prophet (saw) saw me wearing two saffron colored garments, so he said: ‎‎“Indeed, these are the clothes of ‘Kuffar’ (unbelievers), so do not wear them.” [Sahih Muslim]‎


This thread started with a video and a woman being interviewed giving reasons why she wore the hijab and later posts suggesting it was to comply with Sura 24:31. I have argued as above and 8 pages later NOBODY has produced anythingto counter my argument. You (all) have been brainwashed into believing that covering your hair is what is required to comply with 24:31. My argument is measured and logical, you don’t like my argument and because you can’t produce anything to counter it you get angry with me and start issuing insults calling me anti-Islamic etc.

PS. When I use the word ‘you,’ here I don’t mean you in particular I mean all of those who posted here telling me that wearing the hijab was to comply with 24:31
Peace!

Brainwashed? hmmmm. More like you are not prepared to understand what is being said.

Wearing the hijab DOES comply with 24:31. This verse is the agreed islamic text. Try actually reading the posts.

Inadition to the hadith. It does not goes against the verse. As the verse is a command. Its simply what u have to do. The hadith sets out a requirement which must be fulfilled.

An example is, if all the kuffars started wearing the hijab, would that mean all the Muslimah have to take off the hijab to comply with the Hadith? And the answer is No. Because Muslimah have to meet the 1st and foremost requirment i.e the extent of the covering ( everything except the hands and face).

Does not have to specifically mention hair..... post #92
Beauty is the reason for the hijab i.e 1st quote on post #75

8 pages later YOU still dont get it! :rollseyes

Peace
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Thinker
04-28-2009, 09:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Najm
Wearing the hijab DOES comply with 24:31. This verse is the agreed islamic text. Try actually reading the posts.
Some Islamic scholars have defined "ordinarily appear" as face and hands, none have suggested that hair is principal feature of beauty and that covering it is required modesty. And, there are Islamic scholars who define it differently. In my opinion the reason they define what is required as the hijab is because they know that if they defined it as the burka 90% of muslimahs living in the west wouldn’t wear it.

Islamic text also states . . . . . Ibn ‘Umar who said that the Messenger of Allaah (pbuh) said: “Be different from the mushrikeen: let your beards grow and trim your moustaches,” but what percentage of muslim men in the west adhere to that and why?
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burdenofbeing
04-28-2009, 11:44 AM
let me summarize my position, which I still think is very straightforward.

In the qur'an it is ordered that the muslim women should extend their scarves down to their bosoms. this doesn't mean their bosoms need to be covered, this means their bosoms, as well, need to be covered. thus, by a direct order from qur'an covering hair is fard. a must.

there is a big difference between sunnah and fard. not letting the beard grow is considered as "leaving a sunnah" by a considerable amount of scholars, and also one of the four madhabs.

Also, by the reasoning given in the hadiith, and the relevant verses, some scholars put the weight of the issue in "being different". and as there are already many people wearing similar beards (like, say, amish people) beard is not distinctive.

the headscarf issue, is not similar. there is a much bigger consensus on that issue, than many others. it speaks for something.
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Najm
04-28-2009, 12:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Some Islamic scholars have defined "ordinarily appear" as face and hands, none have suggested that hair is principal feature of beauty and that covering it is required modesty. And, there are Islamic scholars who define it differently. In my opinion the reason they define what is required as the hijab is because they know that if they defined it as the burka 90% of muslimahs living in the west wouldn’t wear it.

Islamic text also states . . . . . Ibn ‘Umar who said that the Messenger of Allaah (pbuh) said: “Be different from the mushrikeen: let your beards grow and trim your moustaches,” but what percentage of muslim men in the west adhere to that and why?
Peace!

Again, your avoiding my answer. Lets try one more time.

If i ask you to cover yourself and only showing you hands and face, would you be able to show your hair?

For a women everything is her awruh except the hands and the face.

Yes, we are all entitled to opinions, however, what research have conducted to suggest its 90%? Anyways i surely aint giving my opinion, i dont care what my heart thinks, i only care what Islam commands me to do, i am simply stating what i believe the quran and hadith says. I aint no scholar, with a lifetimes experience and knowledge.



Regarding men in the west........There is a clear distinction between Islam and Muslim......

Islam is quintessential of Life, its fantastic, its perfect, its total and complete submission to . If one implements from A to Z, its all there in the text
Allah (SubhaanAllah WaTa'ala)

Muslims are imperfect and weak. They are constantly trying to surrender to Allah (SubhaanAllah WaTa'ala)

Lets not compare what any muslims do and say. Lets only focus on what Islam has to say, as well as the bestest example to mankind... The Last and Final Messenger (SalAllahu Alayhi WaSalam). Lets see the way He
(SalAllahu Alayhi WaSalam) lived his life.

I only benchmark myself with Him
(SalAllahu Alayhi WaSalam), i do not follow what the men in the west.

Peace
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