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Uthman
04-21-2009, 08:03 PM
With less than six months to go until Norway's general election, increasing tensions over immigration and Islam appear likely to play a significant role in the vote.

The leader of the country's main opposition party has warned that it is facing "sneak-Islamisation", while some prominent Muslims say they face growing "persecution".

The heated debate is a sign that Norway, renowned as one of the most peaceful and tolerant nations in the world, is facing the same issues with its Muslim minority as are now familiar in other parts of Europe.

Siv Jensen, the 39-year-old leader of the opposition Progress Party, has objected to moves to introduce special measures in order to accommodate Muslims' religious sensitivities, traditions and rules.

"The reality is that a kind of sneak-Islamisation of this society is being allowed," she recently told a Progress Party conference. "We are going to have to stop this."

We are portrayed as uncivilised people living double lives - orderly behaved when in public, but at home fundamentalists suppressing and physically abusing women


Khalid Mahmood
Norwegian Labour Party


Opinion polls suggest the party could win as much as 30% of the vote in the election for the national parliament, the Storting, in September.

"If the Progress Party gets to govern Norway, we will enforce Norwegian law and Norwegian rules. We are not going to allow special demands from any single group in society," Ms Jensen added.

'Islamophobia'


Khalid Mahmood, a Pakistani-born member of the governing Labour Party believes Muslims are being persecuted, and Islam confronted with hatred.

"Muslims are the Jews of our times, stigmatised, generalised and presented as a threat to society" he says.

"It is not any longer immigrants who are targeted, but simply Muslims", he adds.

"We are portrayed as uncivilised people living double lives - orderly and behaved when in public, but at home fundamentalists suppressing and physically abusing women."

Last month, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI), the racism watchdog of the Council of Europe, published a report warning that Islamophobia was on the rise in Norway.

Specifically, the commissioned highlighted the increasingly aggressive rhetoric of the Progress Party.

With an estimated 150,000 of Norway's almost five million population being Muslims, Islam is the second-biggest religion in the country.

But while Norway was ranked the most peaceful country in the world by the World Peace Index in 2007, it is struggling to integrate its religious minorities.

In some places, Islamic traditions clash with the largely non-religious Scandinavian way of life.

Culture clash

Earlier this year, the Labour Party's governing coalition suggested it would allow police officers to wear headscarves with their uniform, in the hope that it would attract more Muslim women to the police force.

But after widespread criticism of the proposal, the government dropped the idea.

On International Women's Day in March, Syrian-born Sara Azmeh Rasmussen protested against headscarves by burning hers in public in the capital, Oslo.

Ms Jensen's Progress Party has produced a list of special measures it says Muslims have requested to accommodate their religious sensitivities and traditions.

On top of changes to the police uniform, the list mentions prison inmates wanting Halal food, and parents of teenage girls demanding that schools separate their daughters from boys during sports lessons.

Most of her supporters say it is her hardline stand against Islamic values and rules that make her their favourite candidate.

Some polls suggest that Ms Jensen's party could win the election, and that she could become the country's next prime minister - though to do so she would have to secure the support of other parties like the Conservatives, the Liberals and Christian Democrats.

'Empty rhetoric'


The significant success of the Progress Party has forced the governing Labour Party to react.

Earlier this year, the government tightened asylum rules despite earlier pledges not to do so.

In Norway, extreme Islamist activity is carried out by small groups


Norwegian Police Security Service

And last month, senior members of the Labour Party called for a fight against radical Islam in Norway.

However, the former prime minister and Labour Party leader, Thorbjoern Jagland, called it an unnecessary fight that would only lead to confrontation.

While he argued that it was empty rhetoric, saying there was no radical Islam in Norway, the Norwegian Police Security Service (PST) insists radical Islam does represent a threat.

"In Norway, extreme Islamist activity is carried out by small groups. However, the international connections the persons in these groups represent, in addition to activities they carry out, are such in nature that they can also influence that national threat picture," it said in a recent report.

While the debate is getting more heated, not all Muslims agree with Mr Mahmood.

"Three to four articles critical of religion and the burning of a headscarf is not persecution of Muslims; it is a process of modernising," says Shakil Rehman, another Labour Party member.

"Criticism isn't a smear campaign, but necessary progress."

Source
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Joe98
04-21-2009, 11:20 PM
Norway is filled with Norwegians and Denmark is filed with Danes. The 2 countries are quite different. One thing they have in common is they both have Muslims. And Muslims have the same beliefs wherever they go.

Then we read:


format_quote Originally Posted by Osman

Norway, renowned as one of the most peaceful and tolerant nations in the world, is facing the same issues with its Muslim minority as are now familiar in other parts of Europe.

How can Norway be tolerant and face the same issues all at the same time???

Norway is already tolerant – why do Muslims want Norway to change?

Examples are:



format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
moves to introduce special measures in order to accommodate Muslims' religious sensitivities, traditions and rules.
Muslims do not deserve any special privelages.




format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
…prison inmates wanting Halal food,

Criminals wanting the tax payer to spend more on special food.



format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
and parents of teenage girls demanding that schools separate their daughters from boys during sports lessons.

Which is connected to the next quote


format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
In some places, Islamic traditions clash with the largely non-religious Scandinavian way of life.
…….which is the story everywhere in the West.
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memories
04-21-2009, 11:55 PM
I say in Rome you must act like the Romans, i mean that when your immigrating to a contry you can keep your beliefs and traditions, but it must not bother the other persons there with different beliefs.All and all they norway should respect Islam, and not prejudice against it.
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Whatsthepoint
04-22-2009, 12:25 PM
Multiculturalism is a failed ideology.
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Whatsthepoint
04-22-2009, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
"Muslims are the Jews of our times, stigmatised, generalised and presented as a threat to society" he says.
I actually agree to some extent and to prevent the worst Europe should cease further Muslim immigration and work to integrate the ones who are already here and encourage anyone unwilling to integrate to move out voluntarily.
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Yanal
04-22-2009, 02:35 PM
But we believe in Allah.
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aadil77
04-22-2009, 02:39 PM
On International Women's Day in March, Syrian-born Sara Azmeh Rasmussen protested against headscarves by burning hers in public in the capital, Oslo.
Just goes to show how far these people will go to try and 'integrate'
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GreyKode
04-22-2009, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Multiculturalism is a failed ideology.
Couldn't agree more.
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aadil77
04-22-2009, 02:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Muslims do not deserve any special privelages.
Is that the same for all other religious groups?
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Whatsthepoint
04-22-2009, 02:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Is that the same for all other religious groups?
Of course!
That excludes protecting the Christian heritage with government money but religions as such should not be privileged.
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aamirsaab
04-22-2009, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Multiculturalism is a failed ideology.
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Couldn't agree more.
You two clearly haven't visited leicester :D.
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aadil77
04-22-2009, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You two clearly haven't visited leicester :D.
haha lol :D, they'd probably die of shock

too many mosques to handle, and then some other areas are like you're in india
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aamirsaab
04-22-2009, 05:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
...

Muslims do not deserve any special privelages.
According to the article, the following were mentioned in regards to special privelages:
*Muslims' religious sensitivities = might be difficult to achieve, but its more of a society thing than a law.
*traditions = not exactly hard. It's a day of celebration, like vaisakhi, christmas etc. Month of ramadhan not difficult either given it is personal and not societal (see next point).
*and rules = again, not exactly hard to achieve. Most of the islamic rulings are carried out by the individual such as prayer, fasting. So I don't see how muslims are getting special privelages. Unless muslims are asking for extra microsoft live points, there isn't a problem here.

Criminals wanting the tax payer to spend more on special food.
Well, if you bring back corporate punishment......problem solved. :)

…….which is the story everywhere in the West.
Except we're doing just fine and dandy here as a society (in general). You know, the only people who seem to be crying about anything are the non-muslims. ''Oh you muzzies stealing our jobs!'', ''oh you muzzies introducing sharia law'', ''oh you muzzies with funny beards and ninja suits''.
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GreyKode
04-22-2009, 05:40 PM
@aadil77, really LOL.
I honestly didn't know about that.
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Keltoi
04-22-2009, 06:07 PM
While I agree that multiculturalism has been a failure to a large degree, there is no turning back on demographics now. The West invited this situation and now the only option is to continue the multi-cultural experiment. Using immigrants as scapegoats for economic downturns is nothing new, but the reality is that immigrants were invited to join the West. Complaining about the outcome is pointless at this point.
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Whatsthepoint
04-22-2009, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab


Except we're doing just fine and dandy here as a society (in general). You know, the only people who seem to be crying about anything are the non-muslims. ''Oh you muzzies stealing our jobs!'', ''oh you muzzies introducing sharia law'', ''oh you muzzies with funny beards and ninja suits''.
Exactly. You do not belong here,your culture, religion etc.
Of course, the UK can't forcefully move you out but they can ban the arrival of new ones.
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Whatsthepoint
04-22-2009, 06:09 PM
Teh UK seems to handle the foreigners issue better than most European nations.
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aamirsaab
04-22-2009, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Exactly. You do not belong here,your culture, religion etc.
Of course, the UK can't forcefully move you out but they can ban the arrival of new ones.
That would be very right wing of them. Hopefully, by then I should have enough money to move so not a problem. So basically, I win :D
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Hamayun
04-22-2009, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Except we're doing just fine and dandy here as a society (in general). You know, the only people who seem to be crying about anything are the non-muslims. ''Oh you muzzies stealing our jobs!'', ''oh you muzzies introducing sharia law'', ''oh you muzzies with funny beards and ninja suits''.

^^ Well said hehe :D ^^
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Whatsthepoint
04-22-2009, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
That would be very right wing of them. Hopefully, by then I should have enough money to move so not a problem. So basically, I win :D
Right wingers can be right in some issues, and terribly wrong in others, same as pinko commieson the other side of the spectrum.
Its a win-win situation. You move to a place where you can live your life and deen more fully and UK doesnt have to worry about cohsion between the communities.
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aamirsaab
04-22-2009, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Right wingers can be right in some issues, and terribly wrong in others, same as pinko commieson the other side of the spectrum.
Indeed. I just don't want to be around when the fecal matter hits the fan. Right-wingers want muzzies dead (let's face it, they won't be satisfied until that happens) - can't kill me if I'm not there ;).
Its a win-win situation. You move to a place where you can live your life and deen more fully and UK doesnt have to worry about cohsion between the communities.
Actually, it's a win-lose situation as the UK would be missing out on my awesomeness. But, cest la vie!
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Whatsthepoint
04-22-2009, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Indeed. I just don't want to be around when the fecal matter hits the fan. Right-wingers want muzzies dead (let's face it, they won't be satisfied until that happens) - can't kill me if I'm not there ;).

Actually, it's a win-lose situation as the UK would be missing out on my awesomeness. But, cest la vie!
hehe:D, well, I'm not british.
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burdenofbeing
04-22-2009, 06:57 PM
multiculturalism doesn't have to be bad. but it doesn't go well with standardization.
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Amadeus85
04-22-2009, 07:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
While I agree that multiculturalism has been a failure to a large degree, there is no turning back on demographics now. The West invited this situation and now the only option is to continue the multi-cultural experiment. Using immigrants as scapegoats for economic downturns is nothing new, but the reality is that immigrants were invited to join the West. Complaining about the outcome is pointless at this point.
That's a wise said, but on the other hand, we shouldnt trust the marxist view that the history is a one way line leading to some kind of "progress" and it is unavoidable. Keltoi, nothing is unavoidable. We should reject the Hegel's spirit about a Spirit of Time that crushes all those who disagree and you must only join in. We have defeeated communism, nazism. History is a mystery.
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Keltoi
04-23-2009, 01:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
That's a wise said, but on the other hand, we shouldnt trust the marxist view that the history is a one way line leading to some kind of "progress" and it is unavoidable. Keltoi, nothing is unavoidable. We should reject the Hegel's spirit about a Spirit of Time that crushes all those who disagree and you must only join in. We have defeeated communism, nazism. History is a mystery.
I agree that the mindset of Europeans and Americans may and probably will change, but the problem is the large number of immigrants that already live in these places. They aren't going to be kicked out or rounded up and disposed of...at least I hope not, so the only option is to deal with the reality of multi-culturalism as it stands now. Of course there are different ways to do that. I personally think the best option for everyone is integration, not isolated ethnic communities.
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memories
04-23-2009, 01:35 PM
if multiculturalism is such a failed ideologie then we should just colse the borders and say no to every demands by every different cultures?? thinking that is quite racist in my opinion, besides there are no races as proven today, there is only one human race. to say race when referring to humans is someting of the past.
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Muezzin
04-23-2009, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Right wingers can be right in some issues, and terribly wrong in others, same as pinko commieson the other side of the spectrum.
Its a win-win situation. You move to a place where you can live your life and deen more fully and UK doesnt have to worry about cohsion between the communities.
Frankly, that's retarded.

Unless every British person whoever disagreed with/looked different from/earned more than another British person emigrates, community cohesion will always (and should always) be an issue. Turning entire groups of people away (or forcibly kicking them out) simply because they are perceived not to 'fit in' is tantamount to fascism. By your logic, I, who was born here and am not going anywhere at the moment thank you very much, would have to be deported simply for my beliefs. Er... No.

But hey, you personally are not in power, so there's nothing to worry about from your venting.

What is worrying are these increasingly far right-wing trends in Europe. As Keltoi has said, multicultarism isn't something that can just be thrown out because it's perceived not to work. The cat's out of the bag, the beans have been spilt, the horse has bolted etc etc.

On the other hand, it's not at all surprising that generally Muslims are being singled out. To reactionaries, we're like Jews and Commies mixed, comrade-gentile.
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Thinker
04-23-2009, 02:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
While I agree that multiculturalism has been a failure to a large degree, there is no turning back on demographics now. The West invited this situation and now the only option is to continue the multi-cultural experiment.
The multicultural 'experiment' has created segragation, ghettos, mistrust and intollerance. You say it's been a failure but keep doing it - unusual strategy!!
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Muezzin
04-23-2009, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The multicultural 'experiment' has created segragation, ghettos, mistrust and intollerance.
Because, clearly, none of these existed before the multicultural 'experiment'.

Seriously, did that make sense to you when you wrote it?
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Thinker
04-23-2009, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Because, clearly, none of these existed before the multicultural 'experiment'.

Seriously, did that make sense to you when you wrote it?
It is generally agreed that multiculturalism has led to segregation, mistrust and intolerance and it generaly agreed that is a bad thing. Do you not agree that we fellow citizenz and neighbours should strive towards greater integration, tolerance, trust and understanding?
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Muezzin
04-23-2009, 03:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Are you saying we should strive towards greater segregation, mistrust and intolerance because the phenomina existed before?
Where did I suggest that? You said multiculturalism 'created' segregation, mistrust and intolerance. I called shenanigans.

Oh, you edited the post:

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
It is generally agreed that multiculturalism has led to segregation, mistrust and intolerance and it generaly agreed that is a bad thing
Generally agreed, where exactly? Among whom?

You act as if there is no opposing view. If we're going to start this ad populem stuff, it's 'generally agreed' that multiculturalism fosters tolerance and coexistence, and therefore mutliculturalism is a good thing, because I said so.

Do you not agree that we neighbours should strive towards greater integration, tolerance, trust and understanding?
Of course.

But that is incompatible with your seemingly anti-muliticultural leanings - you'd end up kicking your 'neighbours' out of the country.
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Thinker
04-23-2009, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You act as if there is no opposing view.
There is always and opposing view on any topic.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
If we're going to start this ad populem stuff, it's 'generally agreed' that multiculturalism fosters tolerance and coexistence, and therefore mutliculturalism is a good thing, because I said so.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1055221.ece

Trevor Phillips, the chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, said that multiculturalism was out of date and no longer useful, not least because it encouraged “separateness” between communities.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-Britain.html

Multiculturalism has failed because people refuse to move out of the 'comfort zone' of their own community, academics have warned.
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Amadeus85
04-23-2009, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin

What is worrying are these increasingly far right-wing trends in Europe.
You think that growing islamistic trends in muslim world are worrying?
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Whatsthepoint
04-23-2009, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Frankly, that's retarded.

Unless every British person whoever disagreed with/looked different from/earned more than another British person emigrates, community cohesion will always (and should always) be an issue. Turning entire groups of people away (or forcibly kicking them out) simply because they are perceived not to 'fit in' is tantamount to fascism. By your logic, I, who was born here and am not going anywhere at the moment thank you very much, would have to be deported simply for my beliefs. Er... No.

But hey, you personally are not in power, so there's nothing to worry about from your venting.

What is worrying are these increasingly far right-wing trends in Europe. As Keltoi has said, multicultarism isn't something that can just be thrown out because it's perceived not to work. The cat's out of the bag, the beans have been spilt, the horse has bolted etc etc.

On the other hand, it's not at all surprising that generally Muslims are being singled out. To reactionaries, we're like Jews and Commies mixed, comrade-gentile.
Yes, you you could be the new Jews and to prevent the what happened 60 years ago, things should be done and multiculturalism isnt helping.
I didn't say anyone should nbe kicked out, rather new ones shouldn't be let in and the government should work to better integrate ones already here, discourage religion and radicalism, encourage voluntary emigration of non-integrated individuals, publically support scholars who say living in Norway/Britain is kufr etc.
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Joe98
04-24-2009, 06:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman

Islamophobia

Khalid Mahmood……..believes Muslims are being persecuted, and Islam confronted with hatred.

"Muslims are the Jews of our times, stigmatised, generalised and presented as a threat to society he says.

To take a quote from a different thread in this forum:



format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
We are all brothers and sisters in humanity.


format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98 way of life: Athiest
Athiests would like there to be a brotherhood between all.

format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
….. i will not be a friend with a non believer

..there is no brotherhood between the believers and the disbelievers…..

To paraphrase: Muslims say there is no brotherhood between Muslims and Norwegians and so there is no islamophobia coming from Norwegians


-






-
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Joe98
04-24-2009, 06:40 AM
And from another thread from this forum today:



[QUOTE='Abd-al Latif]

The Status of the Arabic Language in Islâm

As for becoming accustomed to talking to one another in a language other than Arabic, [such as Norwegian]

Arabic, which is the symbol of Islâm and the language of the Qur‘ân, so that this [talking Norwegian] becomes a habit in the land, with one’s ………

undoubtedly this is makrooh (disliked), because it involves being like the non-Arabs, [ the Norwegians ] which is makrooh, as stated previously.

-

From this I conclude the Muslims have Norwegianphobia :D

Peace ! :peace:

-


-
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north_malaysian
04-24-2009, 06:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Multiculturalism is a failed ideology.
not in my country... but the politicians are playing with the racial cards right now...
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Muezzin
04-24-2009, 07:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
To take a quote from a different thread in this forum:













To paraphrase: Muslims say there is no brotherhood between Muslims and Norwegians and so there is no islamophobia coming from Norwegians


-






-
Wha-?

One single Muslim on this forum, who may or may not be Norwegian, said 'there is no brotherhood...', and so that means all Muslims share his opinion, and therefore there is no Islamaphobia from Norwegians?

Is your logic usually this poor, or are you doing this for a bet?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
You think that growing islamistic trends in muslim world are worrying?
I wouldn't say they're growing trends - they've always been there in pockets, and now they're being uncovered, rather than becoming popularised.

But, combined with far right tendencies elsewhere, that's a recipe for war.
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burdenofbeing
04-24-2009, 07:55 AM
^that sounds unnecessarily apologetic. people don't have to be brothers to tolerate each other and share a community. I'm sure not all authentic norwegians treat each other like brothers.
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Whatsthepoint
04-24-2009, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
not in my country... but the politicians are playing with the racial cards right now...
Most Europeans aren't that tolerant, which is a shame really.
I'm all for giving rights to minorities, however everything should be done so the minorities remain minorities and don't attain to much political power.
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Muezzin
04-24-2009, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Most Europeans aren't that tolerant, which is a shame really.
I'm all for giving rights to minorities, however everything should be done so the minorities remain minorities and don't attain to much political power.
That sounds kinda racist, I guess. As long as people are fully legal citizens of the countries in which they reside, they should have the same political opportunities as their fellow citizens. Denying minorities 'too much political power' is a slippery slope that ends in the F word.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
There is always and opposing view on any topic.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1055221.ece

Trevor Phillips, the chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, said that multiculturalism was out of date and no longer useful, not least because it encouraged “separateness” between communities.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-Britain.html

Multiculturalism has failed because people refuse to move out of the 'comfort zone' of their own community, academics have warned.
I really don't have time for this right now...

Supposing multiculturalism is a failure, the only way forward is inter-culturalism - i.e. greater dialogue and interaction between people of different cultures. In essence, people just have to get used to living peacefully with others who are different from them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, you you could be the new Jews and to prevent the what happened 60 years ago, things should be done and multiculturalism isnt helping.
I didn't say anyone should nbe kicked out, rather new ones shouldn't be let in
Impracticable, at least in the UK. There’d be political fallout were the Government to refuse entry solely on religious grounds.

Also, law-abiding EU citizens cannot be denied entry, as that would contravene their right to freedom of movement as provided by EU law.

Add to this the fact that the newest arrivals are Eastern European, and you have quite a complicated situation.

and the government should work to better integrate ones already here,
Not sure how exactly the Government could do that, but okay.

discourage religion and radicalism,
Discouraging religion on its own would open the Government to a boatload of political and legal challenges because they’d be denying citizens their rights etc.

Radicalism – they’re still trying to curb that, aren’t they?

encourage voluntary emigration of non-integrated individuals,
Extremely non-integrated individuals don’t need encouragement to emigrate, they need funding, which I’m not sure the taxpayer would want to provide.

publically support scholars who say living in Norway/Britain is kufr etc.
The Government should curb radicalism but support scholars who say living in Norway/Britain is kufr? Bit of a contradiction there, unless I misunderstood.

format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
^that sounds unnecessarily apologetic.
Probably. It was just weird how ‘One person says X=EVERYONE says X’.

people don't have to be brothers to tolerate each other and share a community. I'm sure not all authentic norwegians treat each other like brothers.
Yeah, but there’s this subtext – religious people are put on a pedestal (when it suits their opponents to do so), and when some of those same religious people don’t treat someone as a ‘brother’, it must mean they are an ‘enemy’.

Unless I’m jumping at shadows. Which I am wont to do.
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Amadeus85
04-24-2009, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
That sounds kinda racist, I guess. As long as people are fully legal citizens of the countries in which they reside, they should have the same political opportunities as their fellow citizens. Denying minorities 'too much political power' is a slippery slope that ends in the F word.
So what You think about the latest plans of Muslim Brotherhood to exclude christians in Egypt for running a presidency.
What political rights would have non-muslims in future islamized Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia.
So far europeans seem to be very tolerant when they see their forafathers soil inhabited by people from other parts of the world. Especially comparing to burning churches, killing minorities in Egypt, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan.
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Muezzin
04-24-2009, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
So what You think about the latest plans of Muslim Brotherhood to exclude christians in Egypt for running a presidency.
Egypt is a republic. Such plans are therefore undemocratic.

What political rights would have non-muslims in future islamized Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia.
I'll have to research and get back to you. Aamirsaab knows more about this sort of thing.

So far europeans seem to be very tolerant when they see their forafathers soil inhabited by people from other parts of the world. Especially comparing to burning churches, killing minorities in Egypt, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan.
I didn't say they weren't tolerant. I was replying to Whatsthepoint's post. This 'forefathers' soil' stuff is kind of amusing on a certain level. In the eyes of people who hold that belief, I suppose I would be difficult to tolerate, being the British-born son of immigrants and all. Unless I sprouted from the earth, in which case I'd be easier to tolerate, because it would be somehow more 'natural', and I'd be a plant.

Burning churches and killing minorities solely because those people are of a different religion, ethnicity etc is of course wrong, inside and outside of Islam.
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Thinker
04-24-2009, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Supposing multiculturalism is a failure, the only way forward is inter-culturalism - i.e. greater dialogue and interaction between people of different cultures. In essence, people just have to get used to living peacefully with others who are different from them.
I agree entirely but would add that we shouldn't have the tail wagging the dog.
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Muezzin
04-24-2009, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I agree entirely but would add that we shouldn't have the tail wagging the dog.
About the tail wagging the dog... I dunno. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, but what if the Romans start copying you?

In Britain at least, it's fair to say immigrants have helped to eventually change the culture.

Particularly with regards to food. :)
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aamirsaab
04-24-2009, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
...
What political rights would have non-muslims in future islamized Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia.
As far as Sharia goes, non-muslims have the same political rights as muslims in an islamic state. Whether or not those countries will allow for that is upto the government officials.
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wth1257
04-24-2009, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Of course!
That excludes protecting the Christian heritage with government money but religions as such should not be privileged.
The religions are privileged implicitly. I like in a secular country that just so happens to have a calendar right in line with the Protestant worship norms. Sundays are holidays and "winter" and "spring" break happen to always cover the times when protestants are celebrating their major holidays and their day of worship.

In the west a Christian lifestyle is the privileged lifestyle.
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Whatsthepoint
04-24-2009, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
The religions are privileged implicitly. I like in a secular country that just so happens to have a calendar right in line with the Protestant worship norms. Sundays are holidays and "winter" and "spring" break happen to always cover the times when protestants are celebrating their major holidays and their day of worship.

In the west a Christian lifestyle is the privileged lifestyle.
It is and I don't see an issue here.
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Whatsthepoint
04-24-2009, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
The Government should curb radicalism but support scholars who say living in Norway/Britain is kufr? Bit of a contradiction there, unless I misunderstood.
I prefer radicals who want to leave than radicals who want to change things here..
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wth1257
04-24-2009, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It is and I don't see an issue here.
It wasn't to you in particular. Just the point that in many of the caseslisted Muslims wern't asking for special things, just the same religious acomidations that Christians got.
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Whatsthepoint
04-24-2009, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
That sounds kinda racist, I guess. As long as people are fully legal citizens of the countries in which they reside, they should have the same political opportunities as their fellow citizens. Denying minorities 'too much political power' is a slippery slope that ends in the F word.
Impracticable, at least in the UK. There’d be political fallout were the Government to refuse entry solely on religious grounds.
No, minorities as long as they are British citizens should have exactly the same rights as everyone else, however, by limiting immigration, minorities can be prevented from becoming to big.
Yes, you cant restrict entry on religious ground, but I'm sure there's a legal way to pevent new Muslims coming here.
Muslims are singled out because theyre the biggest minority, as well as the most, well, troubled one.
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Whatsthepoint
04-24-2009, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
It wasn't to you in particular. Just the point that in many of the caseslisted Muslims wern't asking for special things, just the same religious acomidations that Christians got.
The question is whether or not they should get them.
As I said, I don't really mind if they have their own holidays and walk around in their clothing, as long as there is no foreseeable thread for the majority population.
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Amadeus85
04-24-2009, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
As far as Sharia goes, non-muslims have the same political rights as muslims in an islamic state. Whether or not those countries will allow for that is upto the government officials.
Islamic state is a state governed by muslims only, so whats the use of the political rights for christians and jews if they couldnt influence the state where they live in. Unless You mean "tolerating of their existence" as political rights. And unfortunately in West our liberal morons would call us apartheid unless a muslim becomes a president, just like it was with Obama.
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Hamayun
04-25-2009, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No, minorities as long as they are British citizens should have exactly the same rights as everyone else, however, by limiting immigration, minorities can be prevented from becoming to big.
Yes, you cant restrict entry on religious ground, but I'm sure there's a legal way to pevent new Muslims coming here.
Muslims are singled out because theyre the biggest minority, as well as the most, well, troubled one.
Wow!!! Just Wow!!! I always thought you were a biggot but didn't realise you were actually proud of it too..

So what about white English Muslims? I guess according to your logic they don't belong here either?
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wth1257
04-25-2009, 07:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
And unfortunately in West our liberal morons would call us apartheid unless a muslim becomes a president, just like it was with Obama.

I'd love to know how you plan to support that claim.
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Whatsthepoint
04-25-2009, 11:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Wow!!! Just Wow!!! I always thought you were a biggot but didn't realise you were actually proud of it too..

So what about white English Muslims? I guess according to your logic they don't belong here either?
No, they don't, but same as with every other citizen, you can't force them out.
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Whatsthepoint
04-25-2009, 12:05 PM
Wehther they belong or not can be detrmined from their religious fervour.
You got ordinary Muslims who may go to the mosque every friday, don't eat pork and wear a hijab if they are women, I don't mind those, they can belong to the society and if that's multiculturalism, I like it.
I have an issue with overly religious people who spread their views and beliefs on others, it's not just Muslims, it's also Mormons, Catholics, but those are still more compatible with the society and find t easier to undertsand certain things that are vital to the society as well as they face hardly any prejudice from the majority, so Muslims slone ought to be singled out when it comes to immigration.
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Whatsthepoint
04-25-2009, 12:17 PM
Though I don't think religion is the factor that is causing trouble and unrest in Europe. American immigration forms probably don't inquire about the applicant's religion yet they haven't had immigration problems as Europe has.
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Ar-RaYYan
04-25-2009, 12:48 PM
^ what was the point of that? Anywas i dont think you are allowed to put videos like that in this forum! Its full of music!
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Whatsthepoint
04-25-2009, 01:51 PM
It's gone.
A good Muslim fella showed me the video.
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Amadeus85
04-25-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wth1257
I'd love to know how you plan to support that claim.
Ussually life supports my claims.
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Amadeus85
04-25-2009, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Wow!!! Just Wow!!! I always thought you were a biggot but didn't realise you were actually proud of it too..
You shouldnt be suprised of someone who dares to literally protect his culture and civilization which he belongs to. Especially that muslims from Algeria to Indonesia protect their Islamic civilization not only by speaking but also by harsh actions.
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Hamayun
04-25-2009, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You got ordinary Muslims who may go to the mosque every friday, don't eat pork and wear a hijab if they are women, I don't mind those, they can belong to the society and if that's multiculturalism, I like it.
That is different to what you said earlier.

I have nothing more to say anymore.
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north_malaysian
04-26-2009, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Most Europeans aren't that tolerant, which is a shame really.
The average Malaysians are tolerant ... just two days ago, a Chinese neighbour of us died (she lived in the same street of my house).. they occupied the street with a tent with offerings including roasted pigs and caused a parking problem in the Muslim majority neighbourhood (about 60% of people in my neighbourhood are Muslims) for 3 days as their tent was blocking the street... but no Muslims ever complain because we understand that they should be allowed to practice their rituals.. we even pay respect to the dead by visiting the deceased and offering condolences to her family.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm all for giving rights to minorities, however everything should be done so the minorities remain minorities and don't attain to much political power.
I am all for the minorities... and if someone from the minorities can rule this country in a better way.. I'll support him/her.
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north_malaysian
04-26-2009, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
What political rights would have non-muslims in future islamized Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia.
Hello there... the chief minister of Penang Island, Mr. Lim Guan Eng is a Buddhist... I am his supporter.
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wth1257
04-26-2009, 04:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Ussually life supports my claims.
I accecpt your apology
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Pomak
04-26-2009, 07:46 AM
Most Europeans aren't that tolerant, which is a shame really.
I agree.
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Whatsthepoint
04-26-2009, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
That is different to what you said earlier.

I have nothing more to say anymore.
Beofre I was mainly talking about how no new Muslims should be allowed to immigrate.
Only then did I say which Muslims I think can stay and which one should go, voluntarily of course.
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memories
05-11-2009, 04:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Most Europeans aren't that tolerant, which is a shame really.
I'm all for giving rights to minorities, however everything should be done so the minorities remain minorities and don't attain to much political power.
This is true, its my beleif that when you go into another country you should leave all of your ''stuff'' in the contry you left, '' in rome do like the romans''
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Muezzin
05-11-2009, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
This is true, its my beleif that when you go into another country you should leave all of your ''stuff'' in the contry you left, '' in rome do like the romans''
And what if the Romans start copying you?

Because that's how culture works, folks.

Also, memories, are you aware you're saying 'this is true' to a post which purports to limit the political power of minorites simply because they're minorities?
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memories
05-11-2009, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
And what if the Romans start copying you?

Because that's how culture works, folks.

Also, memories, are you aware you're saying 'this is true' to a post which purports to limit the political power of minorites simply because they're minorities?
YES! how would you feel if I entered your house told your whole family that im in charge now and that we have to walk on our hands/wear pink at all times/and sleep on the floor? (this is a rather comical representation to help you better understand)

Minorities must not have to much political power. Yes this is true! And if you look closely you will find this to be so In pretty much any culture. If I go to some place in the middle east and start doing as I like, ( not respecting religious rules etc) Theirl be consequences. BECAUSE I AM A MINORITY!! there! simple isnt it?
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Muezzin
05-11-2009, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
YES! how would you feel if I entered your house told your whole family that im in charge now and that we have to walk on our hands/wear pink at all times/and sleep on the floor? (this is a rather comical representation to help you better understand)
I think you know that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about minorities acquiring political power through legitimate means. Which is fine. That's progress.

Minorities must not have to much political power. Yes this is true!
No, it's not. Otherwise there would not be a black American president right now.

And if you look closely you will find this to be so In pretty much any culture. If I go to some place in the middle east and start doing as I like, ( not respecting religious rules etc) Theirl be consequences. BECAUSE I AM A MINORITY!! there! simple isnt it?
Not really. I'm talking about minorities being able to start their own political parties, being able to vote etc, in short, not being treated as second-class citizens, simply because of their smaller population. Of course people have to obey the law. That doesn't mean they're not allowed to legitimately change the law as the political system allows.

How can you claim to uphold democracy if you also deliberately deny minorities power simply because they're minorites? It doesn't add up.
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memories
05-11-2009, 07:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
No, it's not. Otherwise there would not be a black American president right now
This is a very simplistic response, the black community is wholly compatible with the United States of america's values, way of tought etc, why the Muslim community in most cases is not!

Its some for of counter culture, Incompatible in one word. Im talking about these incompatible minoritys. they dont accept our way of life, and would change it if they could!

They MUST not gain to much political power. Its like giving the keys to your house to someone that wants to burn it down.
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Muezzin
05-11-2009, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
This is a very simplistic response, the black community is wholly compatible with the United States of america's values, way of tought etc, why the Muslim community in most cases is not!
They're still a minority.

Its some for of counter culture, Incompatible in one word. Im talking about these incompatible minoritys. they dont accept our way of life, and would change it if they could!
Your exact words were:

Minorities must not have to much political power.
No qualifiers. No 'Incompatible minorities only'.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

And you're still wrong.

In the UK, there are Muslim Mayors, Councillors, MPs; in the States there are Muslim Senators.

What to do with these chaps and ladies?

They MUST not gain to much political power. Its like giving the keys to your house to someone that wants to burn it down.
That's a bit presumptuous, given you've never met or spoken to any of these Muslims with political power in Western states. And what to do if one of these is elected to lead?
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memories
05-11-2009, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
They're still a minority.


Your exact words were:



No qualifiers. No 'Incompatible minorities only'.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

And you're still wrong.

In the UK, there are Muslim Mayors, Councillors, MPs; in the States there are Muslim Senators.

What to do with these chaps and ladies?


That's a bit presumptuous, given you've never met or spoken to any of these Muslims with political power in Western states. And what to do if one of these is elected to lead?
the muslim senators embrace the western view, im talking here about extremists.The ones who do not embrace the culture that is hosting them.Its not a question of race,but a question of ideas. We are all part of the human race science has recently proven that the whole concept of race is something of the past. Thats why we should say minorities in ideas not in race.
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Pomak
05-12-2009, 07:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
the muslim senators embrace the western view, im talking here about extremists.The ones who do not embrace the culture that is hosting them.Its not a question of race,but a question of ideas. We are all part of the human race science has recently proven that the whole concept of race is something of the past. Thats why we should say minorities in ideas not in race.
You do know that science actually invented the idea of race, to begin with right?

And btw "the culture that is hosting them" does not apply to the children of immigrants (who are born in their land of choice)

Well, unless your saying that Canadians should embrace the Indigenous culture of North America or go home. If we used that idea, a lot of white folks will need to leave.

Also i have a feeling that you wouldn't be able to separate the "extremists"(as you call them) from the rest.

This is a very simplistic response, the black community is wholly compatible with the United States of america's values, way of tought etc, why the Muslim community in most cases is not!
Except that some of the black community is also the Muslim community.
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Foxhole
05-12-2009, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
As far as Sharia goes, non-muslims have the same political rights as muslims in an islamic state. Whether or not those countries will allow for that is upto the government officials.
Can the head of state be a non-Muslim? If not, no political equality. And there's the broader question of other social rights, in which there is also an advantage to Muslims in a Muslim state. Example:

Imagine a sharia state with 80% Muslims, 10% Christians and 10% Jews. My Muslim friend (male) can marry any woman in the population without any requirement for conversion, since a Muslim man can marry any woman of the book. My Christian or Jewish male friend must find his wife from a 20% subset of the population, since a non-Muslim male cannot marry a Muslim woman. This is not a trivial matter and can not be explained away with a wave of the hand. It's simply unfair.

I think the one thing Muslims should begin to internalize in this modern world is the fact that in western governance it is the equality of all citizens that is paramount. Equality underpins democracy (you and I both get one vote and they both count the same). Equality underpins secular governance (your metaphysical views and my metaphysical views are equally irrelevant when it comes to the law). And obviously, equality underpins the belief that there must be one set of laws that applies to all citizens equally.

In a sharia state there is explicit inequality between people of different faiths as far as political and social rights. This is my fundemantal problem with a sharia state, or a state based on any religion for that matter.
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aamirsaab
05-12-2009, 02:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
Can the head of state be a non-Muslim? If not, no political equality.
The amount of knowledge he/she would need to have in order to actually win any votes to run for head of state would in all intents and purposes make him/her muslim. The way it usually works is people vote on the guy/gal they think has the most knowledge i.e. would make a good leader. E.g If you have a scholar and a student as the candidates, who are you going to chose as your leader? If you have a braincell, you'll vote for the scholar. Unless it is a popularity contest or facebook application, you will vote for the scholar. So it really doesn't matter if they're muslim or non...it's a matter of knowledge. Typically, it will be a muslim head of state in a muslim country. Just as it would be a non-muslim in a non-muslim state, That;s not to say noone else cannot apply tho...

...
.... My Christian or Jewish male friend must find his wife from a 20% subset of the population, since a non-Muslim male cannot marry a Muslim woman. This is not a trivial matter and can not be explained away with a wave of the hand. It's simply unfair.
That would occur in any state where there is a muslim population....I don't see how this is any more problematic in a sharia state than it is in a non-sharia state that has a muslim population. The only ''problem'' identified in your example is the % of non-muslims i.e. your pool is smaller...which is your problem not Sharia's.

In a sharia state there is explicit inequality between people of different faiths as far as political and social rights. This is my fundemantal problem with a sharia state, or a state based on any religion for that matter.
Political and social rights are the same for muslim and non on a general bases in a true sharia state. I really don't see what inequality you could level at non-muslims in a sharia state. Certainly not at the non-muslims given the following:

* non-muslims pay LESS TAXES in a sharia state

* non-muslims are exempt from the harsh criminal punishments (death penalty, capital punishment etc)

* non-muslims are priority cases in sharia state (there are countless hadith/sunnah indicating the importance of treating dhimmis/non-muslims, one going along the lines of whosoever treats a dhimmi badly, the Prophet [saw] himself will stand in defence of that dhimmi on the day of judgement...in short that means treat your dhimmis well unless you want a one on one with the Prophet [saw])

If anything, it's actually easier for non-muslims to live in a sharia state than it is for a muslim (on the above points anywho).

p.s; we're actually off topic so continue this train of thought this thread if you want to.
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Whatsthepoint
05-12-2009, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
And btw "the culture that is hosting them" does not apply to the children of immigrants (who are born in their land of choice)
It does if the children feel more connected to the culture of their parents than the culture of their country.
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memories
05-12-2009, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
You do know that science actually invented the idea of race, to begin with right?

And btw "the culture that is hosting them" does not apply to the children of immigrants (who are born in their land of choice)

Well, unless your saying that Canadians should embrace the Indigenous culture of North America or go home. If we used that idea, a lot of white folks will need to leave.

Also i have a feeling that you wouldn't be able to separate the "extremists"(as you call them) from the rest.



Except that some of the black community is also the Muslim community.


1: your talking about old outdated science,
2: ''some blacks are muslim'' so??
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'Abd-al Latif
05-13-2009, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
1: your talking about old outdated science,
2: ''some blacks are muslim'' so??
Outdated Science? Such as a sperm drop clinging onto the womb of a woman that results in a child?

Or that the sea never mixes i.e. the sweet and salty water?

Or the orbit of the sun and the moon?

All of which was discovered not long ago yet the Qur'an said this over 1400 years ago? How could a man in the desert know this? A man who could not read nor right? Or are you talking about scientific theories?

The Qur'an is from Allah!

Media Tags are no longer supported
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memories
05-13-2009, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Outdated Science? Such as a sperm drop clinging onto the womb of a woman that results in a child?

Or that the sea never mixes i.e. the sweet and salty water?

Or the orbit of the sun and the moon?

All of which was discovered not long ago yet the Qur'an said this over 1400 years ago? How could a man in the desert know this? A man who could not read nor right? Or are you talking about scientific theories?

The Qur'an is from Allah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWDx73O-Q8


What does this have to do with anything? I was talking science that recently negated the idea of ''races'' on the basis of genetics and physical antropology, the latter atribution of the concept ''race'' to human beings was made by ''outdated science''

I meant by that: science that was subjective rather than objective (on the basis of ethnocentrical beleifs)

for example: Freuds theory of psycanalysis can also be considered to some degree ''outdated science'' because it is tainted with sexism.

I dont know why I even took time to answer, with the high level of warning you gave me in the past few minutes you might as well edit the whole thing for something that pleases you.

Aleikum salam....
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جوري
05-13-2009, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories

edit: OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! the sun has NO orbit!
It doesn't?
that is news, as is everything else worthless that you impart!

The Sun's orbit around the Galaxy is expected to be roughly elliptical with the addition of perturbations due to the galactic spiral arms and non-uniform mass distributions. In addition, the Sun oscillates up and down relative to the galactic plane approximately 2.7 times per orbit. This is very similar to how a simple harmonic oscillator works with no drag force (damping) term. These oscillations often coincide with mass extinction periods on Earth; presumably the higher density of stars close to the galactic plane leads to more impact events.[36]
It takes the Solar System about 225–250 million years to complete one orbit of the galaxy (a galactic year),[37] so it is thought to have completed 20–25 orbits during the lifetime of the Sun and 1/1250 of a revolution since the origin of humans. The orbital speed of the Solar System about the center of the Galaxy is approximately 220 km/s. At this speed, it takes around 1,400 years for the Solar System to travel a distance of 1 light-year, or 8 days to travel 1 AU (astronomical unit).[38]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way




http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ima...e_soho_big.jpg

you are very under-educated all around (science, theology, philosophy) -- why you insist of embarrassing yourself is beyond me?

all the best
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Pomak
05-13-2009, 02:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It does if the children feel more connected to the culture of their parents than the culture of their country.
You mean white the white population of North America who feel more in touch with the culture of their forefathers than that of the rightful owners of the land? (Native Americans)


1: your talking about old outdated science,
2: ''some blacks are muslim'' so??
When someone gives you a cure that poisons you and then gives you another cure that cures the poison he gave you in the first place, i question the value of that person.
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Muhajabah
05-13-2009, 10:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
I say in Rome you must act like the Romans, i mean that when your immigrating to a contry you can keep your beliefs and traditions, but it must not bother the other persons there with different beliefs.All and all they norway should respect Islam, and not prejudice against it.
More than 2000 muslims here in Norway did NOT immigrate here, we are NORWEGIANS just like any other. Can we be muslims then and keep our believes?
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Whatsthepoint
05-13-2009, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
You mean white the white population of North America who feel more in touch with the culture of their forefathers than that of the rightful owners of the land? (Native Americans)
No I'm not. No matter what happened in the past the descendants of European settlers are a majority today and they have the right to preserve their nation, if they want of course.
Europeans as well. Arabs in arab lands. &c
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Whatsthepoint
05-13-2009, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhajabah
More than 2000 muslims here in Norway did NOT immigrate here, we are NORWEGIANS just like any other. Can we be muslims then and keep our believes?
Of course.
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Muhajabah
05-13-2009, 12:32 PM
Oh gee... thanx a lot, thats big of you.

Sad my kids cant then, they were born muslims, and two of them are not pure, ethnic white Norwegians.
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Whatsthepoint
05-13-2009, 02:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhajabah
Oh gee... thanx a lot, thats big of you.

Sad my kids cant then, they were born muslims, and two of them are not pure, ethnic white Norwegians.
That completely depends on what their views are. even you as a native can be sonsidered hsotile to Norway based on your views, communists were and still are considered hostile and foreign no matter what their lineage is, so are certain Muslims, converts or not. Dawud UK is an example of a convert I would give governmental funds in order to emigrate as quickly as possible.
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Hamayun
05-13-2009, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That completely depends on what their views are. even you as a native can be sonsidered hsotile to Norway based on your views, communists were and still are considered hostile and foreign no matter what their lineage is, so are certain Muslims, converts or not. Dawud UK is an example of a convert I would give governmental funds in order to emigrate as quickly as possible.

Thank God we have an impartial person like you to judge who should stay and who should go. :rollseyes

Just need more people to think like you and the world would be so much better.

Thank you O gracious one...
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memories
05-13-2009, 07:16 PM
The Point being that any individual whos views are hostile and are directed in an objective to destroy a said culture is a menace, regardless of his or her origins, its the ideology that is of importance here.



format_quote Originally Posted by Hamayun
Thank God we have an impartial person like you to judge who should stay and who should go. :rollseyes

Just need more people to think like you and the world would be so much better.

Thank you O gracious one...
Indeed :) Im glad you agree.
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Hamayun
05-13-2009, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
Indeed :) Im glad you agree.
Its called sarcasm...
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memories
05-13-2009, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
When someone gives you a cure that poisons you and then gives you another cure that cures the poison he gave you in the first place, i question the value of that person.
Is this questionning the Validity of science? Science like all things evolves. its not ''poison''.
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جوري
05-13-2009, 10:48 PM
Where was this 'science' when you informed us with swaggering bravado that the sun has no orbit?

all the best
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Pomak
05-14-2009, 08:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
Is this questionning the Validity of science? Science like all things evolves. its not ''poison''.
The idea of race and more importantly the study of race was a product of Western European "science". Considering the affect this idea had on different ethnic/race groups, i would say poison is exactly the right word to use.
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Muhajabah
05-14-2009, 09:45 AM
Well, to the topic of islam being a political target in Norway... Today it was decided that it will be an attempt to "burn the Quran" by a right-wing party who is participating in this years election.

We will see who burns after :D
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Muhajabah
05-14-2009, 09:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That completely depends on what their views are. even you as a native can be sonsidered hsotile to Norway based on your views, communists were and still are considered hostile and foreign no matter what their lineage is, so are certain Muslims, converts or not. Dawud UK is an example of a convert I would give governmental funds in order to emigrate as quickly as possible.
How can i be hostile to my own country?

People always jump to conclutions, and keep thinking the worst when it comes to muslims. :raging:
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Amadeus85
05-14-2009, 03:08 PM
The problem is that Islam always saw christian Europe as an enemy and future prey. We cant forget that Islam is in fact a supermacist political system/religion/law which even muslims admit and Europe with catholic Rome is muslim's eternal goal to conquere. There are verses in Quaran about future muslims' fight for Rome and you people cant blame us that we simply want to defend what is ours and what is valuable for us. We must never forget this when we talk about multiculturalism and muslim immigration.
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memories
05-14-2009, 03:33 PM
Their is no way of life I prefer the most than the one you call ''orientalist'' or western, Its values of freedom of speach, equality and tolerance are simply beautifull and It would simply hurt me to see a Doctrine that has vowed by all means to destroy this way of life gain political power,

I noticed many people posting here are either from the US or Great Britan and quick to point out injustices that have happened at Guantanamo-Bay, but go pass a night in an Iranian,syrian,Egyptian prison or one of Saddams ex prisons and you'l consider gitmo heaven on earth!:happy::happy:

And heres just a sample of what can be accomplished in the name of this doctrine: A few years ago a contry published caricatures of the prophet, and many countrys went mad, burning the embassys of that country and rioting... that gives a good indicator of the tolerance..

And in a very polite and unmenacing manor I will say this: If you are not satisfied by the way things are run in your country and judge it incompatible/offensive to islam then leave! pack your stuff and leave for Iran, or some other place... I heard the whole place has a theocratic constitution youl be happier there :).


Regards
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جوري
05-14-2009, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
The problem is that Islam always saw christian Europe as an enemy and future prey. We cant forget that Islam is in fact a supermacist political system/religion/law which even muslims admit and Europe with catholic Rome is muslim's eternal goal to conquere. There are verses in Quaran about future muslims' fight for Rome and you people cant blame us that we simply want to defend what is ours and what is valuable for us. We must never forget this when we talk about multiculturalism and muslim immigration.
Actually, you have gotten it completely in reverse.. and there was a thread rather similar to this one (where I had covered most of these points) already but given that each country in Europe is suddenly after its identity.. something it failed to consider under two circumstances.

1- its massive imperialism of sovereign empires and I am certainly not simply speaking of dismantling the Muslim empires, but a brief history, on Hong Kong, China, India, Africa and middle east.. certainly when you claim things for the conquering states it comes with a price and that being its citizens are now your own.. (something to consider) when incessantly injecting into histories and for ages that possessing pillaging and and recessive traits it somehow superior.

2- Islamic conquests were not simply peaceful but also respectful to human dignity and any regular history book will tell you just that in spite of recent efforts to cast doubt over that period.. the good thing about history, is that it is a done deal.. You can look at the Iberian peninsula pre and after Islamic conquest to see exactly what took place and to modern day seville and Muslim spain makes more money from its Islamic monuments than Egypt does of its pharonic ones..

since the dawn of Islam it has been made target by orientalist and I have written a piece to that extent yesterday on another thread, I'll part with it here:

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer Skye
All orientalist scholarship is built on the premise of the more enlightened outsider being free of bias, but has western Judeo-Christian tradition ever allowed room for supposed objectivity? Where are these Jewels of wise discourse in the subjective and vulgar catalog of historic western writing? Vulgar, I say, because anyone can compare the reverence with which Muslim scholars treat Jesus, the virgin Mary, Moses, Aaron, Issac, Abraham, Solomon, lot etc to the crude wrathful rantings of Jews against christians, or christians against jews, of catholics against protestants, and of ancient Romans against everyone. Adrian Reeland, professor of the Oriental Tongues at the University of Utrecht, who in 1705 composed a unique work in latin, subsequently translated and published in london under the title, Four treasties concerning the doctrine, Discipline and worship of the Mahometans (1712) (for full text pls see title pages 5-6)

The Revisionist school insisting that no Muslim document bears any semblance of truth unless other, non_muslim accounts provides verification (see Yehuda Nevo's definition of revisionism pp 7-8) Given how maliciously Christians and Jews have lashed out against Muslims from the very dawn of Islam, what hope can we possibly have of priests and rabbis 'verifying' Mslim accounts, attesting to the accomplishment of their bitterest rivals with objectivity? Under no condition do western scholars validate the indoctrinate abuse what christians and Jews hurled against each other, each group barricades by its own ignorance and superstition ( see example the apologist attitude inherent in the articles of both Joseph Blenkinsopp and Baraclay Newman [bible review, oct 1996 pp 42-43] so then on what grounds in their inordinate abuse against Muslims, hatched of the selfsame ignorance and superstition can be accepted as now truth?
Here are a few charges levelled against Muslims 17th and 18thc western scholars writing in latin that the Muslims worship Venus (2) and worship created beings, (3) and sins taken away by frequent washing.. etc

Orientalist motivation: a study of subjectivity pp327-329) Dr. Al-Azami __________________
so the bottom line is not a Muslim pre-occupation of Europe, rather a European paraonia of what Islam means and actually is!


all the best
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aamirsaab
05-14-2009, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
snip
Try sticking to the topic please. That goes for everyone.

Including myself.
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Whatsthepoint
05-15-2009, 02:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Islamic conquests were not simply peaceful but also respectful to human dignity and any regular history book will tell you just that in spite of recent efforts to cast doubt over that period..
Please define peaceful.
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Bhabha
04-16-2016, 11:43 PM
The thing, is that people assume Islamic and European identities are completely concrete categories, separate and fixed. What about converts who are stuck in the middle? Europeans who have accepted Islam and in their right do not need to "integrate" into Mainstream European society, their rights are trampled on in the assumption that Islam belongs outside of the political imaginary of European society. Before the nations-states of Europe formed and drew their borders around the 16th-17th centuries, to designate their specific national identities, Islam had already BEEN part of Europe for more than 700 years. The Danish, the Finish, the British "identities" formed with the "sovereign" model, are recent phenomenons. I find this Islamophobia in Europe to be so blind-sighted by the huge Islamic past that Europe is actually built on.
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