Has Your 'God' ever dined on swine?

[جوري]

Greetings;

Sometimes when I think of all the absurdities that are found in Christianity and generally attributed to Jesus, I can't help but shrug my shoulders in amazement.. I usually can't get past the triple God complex to ponder other fooleries...

Most Christians allege they like to follow in Jesus' example and footsteps to later return to his side..
but how much of his behavior are they actually modeling? Here we have an alleged God, who forbade pigs in the OT, he came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel as per bible, who would have literally crucified him if he came with laws askew (like eating pigs)-- Jesus (or the promised one) is supposed to fulfill and complete the laws of the OT not abrogate them, I am certain he never ate pigs, in fact I am certain I remember an incident which I can't now rectify, where he exorcized a woman's so-called possession into pigs who later jumped off and died.. in other words, these creatures were never viewed as lovable much less edible.. so how did this evolution of pig eating happen? although admittedly it is less of a stretch from being a man/god... still

How much of the commandments did this alleged God break?
1-unusual brand of prayers
2-no circumcision for males
3- ok to eat pigs
4-Ok to make idols in churches and bow before them
5--ok to forgo monotheism and logic all together...
6- Ok to sin, since sin is forgiven through his self-immolation

the conundrum really remains, when evangelists come here trying to win converts, and I'll tell them first hand why it doesn't work..
for starters, they have false beliefs about Muslims as constantly fed to them by fundies the liked of falwel, so when they come bringing these large pamphlets of our beliefs forth we can all manage a chuckle, sort of like the moon god allegation, nonetheless if we are not merely wasting each other's time on puerile attempts, logic would dictate if you want to convince someone of something you must do so by studying their beliefs then putting dents, not making up false beliefs that you allege they believe and then trying to attract them to something inferior? but I do digress...

I would like to ask the fundies on board who are here to indoctrinate others into their brand of thinking...

beneath all the velvet brocade and candles and stain glass and ceremonial hats, what does christianityreally have to offer?
how is christianity in keeping with monotheism?

[glo]

Greetings, Skye

I see from your profile that you are still grouchy.
I hope you will soon have reasons to be cheerful again! :)

I am not sure that I see myself fitting the description of "fundie who is here to indoctrinate others into their brand of thinking" :giggling:, but I will give you my thoughts on some of the points you have reaised anyway ...

How much of the commandments did this alleged God break?

I don't think Jesus did any of those things you mention. He was a Jew and therefore followed the practices of the Jews. He almost certainly didn't eat pork and he was himself circumcised.

Jesus is reported to have broken certain laws, which the pharisees of the day upheld and felt strongly about.
Namely he allowed his disciples to break the Sabbath law by picking grain on the Sabbath. Jesus himself is reported to have healed people on the Sabbath - which also broke the Sabbath law.
He allowed his disciples to eat without following the hand-washing ritual.

What Jesus' actions in those situations shows is that he put people before the law.

Jesus said:

"The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:8)

and

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."(Mark2:27)

When asked which laws were the most important ones to uphold, Jesus replied:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

As for the points you mentioned:

1-unusual brand of prayers

Jesus would have worshipped as Jews worship.
But there are many different ways to praise and worship God:
Abraham raised his hands to the Lord.
David danced before the Lord to the sound of cymbals and singing.
People in the Bible are said to have kneeled, stood, danced, sang, prostrated themselves ... there are no right or worng ways to express praise to God, only different ways. :)

2-no circumcision for males

When the church spread there was some debate between Jesus' disciples with regards to circumcision. The outcome was that circumcision was only seen relevant to those of Jewish background, but not for those who were Gentiles.
The New Testament speaks of the 'circumcision of the heart' rather than the physical circumcision. The latter is only a physical symbol of the first, it is the 'circumcision of the heart' - i.e. the submission and giving of oneself to God, which is of importance.

3- ok to eat pigs

As mentioned above, as a Jew Jesus almost certainly did not eat pork.
But when asked about cleanliness Jesus said the following:

"Are you still so dull? Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " (Matthew 15:16-20)

After Jesus' death, his disciple Peter has a repeated vision in which God tells him to eat food which Jews consider to be unclean. (See Acts 10)
Peter is a Jews himself, so the vision disturbs him and he rejects it - until it is confirmed by strangers coming to his house.

4-Ok to make idols in churches and bow before them

Interestingly enough I read not so long ago that statues and images of Jesus were not used in churches in the first centuries.
Perhaps people's understanding of what an 'idol' is has changed over time.

Personally I would see an idol to be something which distracts me from God, and which becomes more powerful than God himself. Would you agree with that?
On that basis anything and everything can become an idol. My career, my marriage, money, hobbies, etc etc can all become idols.

Are statues idols? Do they distract us from God and become godlike in themselves? Perhaps that depends on us individually.
When I go to church and look at the image of Jesus on the cross, it acts for me as a reminder of Jesus' life, death and resurrection, and of the very premise of my faith. It is something which concentrates my focus and attention, rather than distract me from God.
I don't think the statue has any magic powers - it is a wooden, man-made thing, no more no less.

Perhaps you could compare it to prayer beads, which I know are used in Islam too ... They are simply tools to help the prayer focus and concentrate. In themselves they have to power or magic at all.
Were we to believe that the statue/beads have powers, which we are praying to, then we would be idolators!

5--ok to forgo monotheism and logic all together...

There are many very informative and helpful posts in other threads, which explain very clearly that Christians clearly and without any doubt consider themselves to be monotheists (try this thread, for example), so I won't comment further on it here.

6- Ok to sin, since sin is forgiven through his self-immolation

Christians believe that God is a God of mercy, and that he forgives our sins if we sincerely repent.
Christians believe that by Jesus' death he reconciled humanity with God and overcame the rift between God and mankind which has been caused by the sinfulness of man.
Christians do not believe that it is okay to sin, and that we can go on sinning because God forgives us anyway ...

Again, this has been discussed many times before. I shouldn't take you long to find the appropriate threads in the Comparative Religions section.


I wonder whether this thread might fit better into the Comparative Religion section? Perhaps the mods can move it, if you are happy with that, Skye.

Salaam :)

[جوري]

Greetings, Skye

Greetings,

I see from your profile that you are still grouchy.

What does my profile have to do with this topic?

I hope you will soon have reasons to be cheerful again! :)

Thanks for your sincere concern!

I am not sure that I see myself fitting the description of "fundie who is here to indoctrinate others into their brand of thinking" :giggling:, but I will give you my thoughts on some of the points you have reaised anyway ...

Perhaps you shouldn't partake in a thread addressing fundies then?
Guilt by reply? :giggling:

I don't think Jesus did any of those things you mention. He was a Jew and therefore followed the practices of the Jews. He almost certainly didn't eat pork and he was himself circumcised.

I never mentioned that he ate pigs, I asked if he ate pigs?

Jesus is reported to have broken certain laws, which the pharisees of the day upheld and felt strongly about.
Namely he allowed his disciples to break the Sabbath law by picking grain on the Sabbath. Jesus himself is reported to have healed people on the Sabbath - which also broke the Sabbath law.

Why did your God change his mind?

He allowed his disciples to eat without following the hand-washing ritual.

and not enough concern for their hygiene?

What Jesus' actions in those situations shows is that he put people before the law.

You believe that eating pigs and not washing your hand is putting people before the law, that he allegedly instated in the OT?

Jesus would have worshipped as Jews worship.

Then why don't Christians worship as Jews worship?

But there are many different ways to praise and worship God:

The question is how did God pray to God for others to emulate and follow in his footsteps..

Abraham raised his hands to the Lord.

indeed..

David danced before the Lord to the sound of cymbals and singing.

No evidence that dance is a form of worship, David had a beautiful voice, undoubtedly he recited the words of the Lord as the Jews and Muslims recite prayers, that isn't song or organ playing!

People in the Bible are said to have kneeled, stood, danced, sang, prostrated themselves ... there are no right or worng ways to express praise to God, only different ways. :)

I think some ways can border upon sacrilege, but then I also believe in lesser of evils, no harm to clap and dance when worshiping a man I suppose!

When the church spread there was some debate between Jesus' disciples with regards to circumcision. The outcome was that circumcision was only seen relevant to those of Jewish background, but not for those who were Gentiles.

indeed not a practice by your God? Your God was circumcised no? makes sense to do as he did?

The New Testament speaks of the 'circumcision of the heart' rather than the physical circumcision. The latter is only a physical symbol of the first, it is the 'circumcision of the heart' - i.e. the submission and giving of oneself to God, which is of importance.

Again, point is you have done away with something major symbolizing the covenant between God and Abraham, as well your own God was himself circumcised thus leaves me to believe that it is not open to church re-interpretation?

As mentioned above, as a Jew Jesus almost certainly did not eat pork.
But when asked about cleanliness Jesus said the following:

Agreed your God didn't eat pigs as in he upheld the law of the OT

After Jesus' death, his disciple Peter has a repeated vision in which God tells him to eat food which Jews consider to be unclean. (See Acts 10)
Peter is a Jews himself, so the vision disturbs him and he rejects it - until it is confirmed by strangers coming to his house.

So you are basing the abolition of a major commandment on visions of people who enjoyed bacon and not something Jesus enforced during his lifetime?

Interestingly enough I read not so long ago that statues and images of Jesus were not used in churches in the first centuries.
Perhaps people's understanding of what an 'idol' is has changed over time.

perhaps indeed.. isn't that disturbing? so far everything your God wanted in the OT abolished in the NT? is religion about people's understanding or in keeping with God's commandments?

Personally I would see an idol to be something which distracts me from God, and which becomes more powerful than God himself. Would you agree with that?

I don't since from my view you are kneeling before an idol and praying to a man.

On that basis anything and everything can become an idol. My career, my marriage, money, hobbies, etc etc can all become idols.

I am not following? I think an idol is material effigy (especially in the form of sculpture)) that is worshipped

Are statues idols? Do they distract us from God and become godlike in themselves? Perhaps that depends on us individually.

see above reply

When I go to church and look at the image of Jesus on the cross, it acts for me as a reminder of Jesus' life, death and resurrection, and of the very premise of my faith. It is something which concentrates my focus and attention, rather than distract me from God.

Given that I think what you are doing is the very definition of idol worship, I'll have to disagree, this is exactly what God warned against!

I don't think the statue has any magic powers - it is a wooden, man-made thing, no more no less.

Isn't that the worst thing of all, a man man wooden thing that you kneel before and hold in high regard and is supposed to represent your God? Pagan Arabs used to fashion their Gods of dates worship them then eat them, Buddhists do the same of statues of butter, celebrate then eat.. I don't see it as different from eating the body of your God or drinking his blood.. How did monotheism get so deranged by your God? that would sow the seeds of doubt in my heart for sure!

Perhaps you could compare it to prayer beads, which I know are used in Islam too ... They are simply tools to help the prayer focus and concentrate. In themselves they have to power or magic at all.
Were we to believe that the statue/beads have powers, which we are praying to, then we would be idolators!

Prayer beads are frowned upon in Islam, but still have no relation of Jesus statues and man worship if I am to go solely by your logic!

There are many very informative and helpful posts in other threads, which explain very clearly that Christians clearly and without any doubt consider themselves to be monotheists (try this thread, for example), so I won't comment further on it here.

I don't see how it can be helpful when all you'll reference me to as I suggested were the dreams and visions of men that your God allegedly appeared to, after he foresake himself.. Why didn't God linger around long enough to clarify things to others?

Christians believe that God is a God of mercy, and that he forgives our sins if we sincerely repent.

How does this relate to the topic?

Christians believe that by Jesus' death he reconciled humanity with God and overcame the rift between God and mankind which has been caused by the sinfulness of man.

I am not following what that means, so why didn't God do this earlier for Abraham or Issac or david, or Aaron, or John the baptist, or Enoch, or or or? What does reconciling humanity with God mean to you? and were the people who came before him not reconciled? to hell with them basically?

Christians do not believe that it is okay to sin, and that we can go on sinning because God forgives us anyway ...

Doesn't that contradict the statement you have just made above of overcoming a rift?

Again, this has been discussed many times before. I shouldn't take you long to find the appropriate threads in the Comparative Religions section.

Perhaps not explained adequately since the question seems to go unresolved for many!

I wonder whether this thread might fit better into the Comparative Religion section? Perhaps the mods can move it, if you are happy with that, Skye.

Salaam :)

I have no reservation on where the mods think this better belongs...

all the best

[Muezzin]

I think this thread better belongs in Comparative Religion.

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[glo]

Greetings, Skye

I cannot possibly reply to all the different comments you made - I simply lack the time and the energy. :)

Apologies for getting it wrong on the prayer beads. I have seen (elderly) Muslim men sitting on the park benches with prayer beads running through their fingers, and I had made the assumption that it was common practice in Islam ...

On a general note, your replies and some discussion with my hubby have made me aware of another interesting difference between Islam and Christinanity.

Islam places such great importance on imitating the example of Muhammed - often to the minutest detail. Muslims try to sleep on the same side as their prophet (at least that's what I have read here in LI). Muslims break the fast with the same food their prophet did.
Those are just two small examples I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure there are hundreds more.
Muslims aim to become better Muslims by imitating Muhammed as much as possible. Is that fair to say?

Christians aim to be like Jesus with regards to what he taught and the examples he gave in dealing with other people, but we don't try to copy the very lifestyle he lead.
Firstly we don't have that kind of detail about his life, secondly it doesn't seem so important.
That's perhaps why many Christian traditions are not directly based on what Jesus did. Jesus didn't say "I don't forget to celebrate my birthday every year". Nor did he say "Stick up crosses in your churches". :rollseyes

But he did tell us to remember him and to not be lead astray ... and that's why we follow our (different) traditions.
What's important is not what we do, or that we all do the same, or that it always imitated Jesus to the detail - but that we remember him, that we align our lives with his teaching, that we allow God's Spirit to guide us daily.

As I said in my previous post, Jesus said this:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

When challenged by the pharisees why he was not stricter in keeping the laws, Jesus said this:

'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' (Matthew 12:7 and Matthew 9:13; based on Hosea 6:6)

Personally I conclude from that that for Jesus our hearts, our attitudes, our relationship with him is more important than the blind obeyance of religious laws ...
So Christians try to become better Christians by remaining in constant focus on Jesus and being open to God's Spirit moving inside them.

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear the views of others on this matter.

Please understand that I am not trying to criticise Islam.
I am just poiting out the differences in our faiths and religious practices.

Peace :)

[جوري]

Greetings, Skye

Greetings

I cannot possibly reply to all the different comments you made - I simply lack the time and the energy. :)

Why partake in a thread you can't reply to with high fidelity?

Apologies for getting it wrong on the prayer beads. I have seen (elderly) Muslim men sitting on the park benches with prayer beads running through their fingers, and I had made the assumption that it was common practice in Islam ...

Force of habit, it is best for them to do dhikr with their fingers, as they will be a witness on the day of recompense!

On a general note, your replies and some discussion with my hubby have made me aware of another interesting difference between Islam and Christinanity.

Your atheist hubby made you aware of that difference?

Islam places such great importance on imitating the example of Muhammed - often to the minutest detail. Muslims try to sleep on the same side as their prophet (at least that's what I have read here in LI). Muslims break the fast with the same food their prophet did.
Those are just two small examples I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure there are hundreds more.
Muslims aim to become better Muslims by imitating Muhammed as much as possible. Is that fair to say?

We strive for equal practices as those of the prophet when it comes to worship...

Christians aim to be like Jesus with regards to what he taught and the examples he gave in dealing with other people, but we don't try to copy the very lifestyle he lead.

How are you like Jesus? are you mini gods? That is what Jesus was like, a man who was circumcised, didn't eat pigs, didn't play the organ, didn't pray to himself.. how exactly are you like him?

Firstly we don't have that kind of detail about his life, secondly it doesn't seem so important.

What is important about his life do you think? what is the take home message?

That's perhaps why many Christian traditions are not directly based on what Jesus did. Jesus didn't say "I don't forget to celebrate my birthday every year". Nor did he say "Stick up crosses in your churches". :rollseyes

Seems odd that you should do it no? celebrating the birth of god? making wooden effigies of him? especially that he did warn against that very thing no?

But he did tell us to remember him and to not be lead astray ... and that's why we follow our (different) traditions.

you realize that lead astray and different traditions are a contradiction?
you can't be lead aright and follow different paths, it just doesn't follow!

What's important is not what we do, or that we all do the same, or that it always imitated Jesus to the detail - but that we remember him, that we align our lives with his teaching, that we allow God's Spirit to guide us daily.

What is the difference then between an agnostic who believes in God and dances to his own drums, to a christian who worships a man and dances to the organ if all that it comes down to is a a remembrance of a person?

As I said in my previous post, Jesus said this:


When challenged by the pharisees why he was not stricter in keeping the laws, Jesus said this:

What does loving your neighbor and having mercy have to do with doing away with major established commandments of the old T? Those seem like ancillary supporting phrases not the crux of an entire religion!
Also it would seem hypocritical of God to do one thing and expect you to do another.. for instance that he doesn't eat swine but allows you to do it? further telling you the means of going about doing it, by someone whom Jesus himself didn't appoint as an apostle rather a self-appointed apostle?

Personally I conclude from that that for Jesus our hearts, our attitudes, our relationship with him is more important than the blind obeyance of religious laws ...

I see what you mean.. sort of like I love my parents but to hell with the laws that established in this household because that would be a blind observance not an understanding of why?

So Christians try to become better Christians by remaining in constant focus on Jesus and being open to God's Spirit moving inside them.

I have no idea what that means... you are nothing like Jesus, not of his Godhood, nor his practices, nor his commandments.. how exactly are you like him?

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear the views of others on this matter.

indeed

Please understand that I am not trying to criticise Islam.
I am just poiting out the differences in our faiths and religious practices.

I don't see how you could possibly criticize Islam even if you were really trying? all you do is quell yourself about your belief system, and it does nothing by way of a comparative religion!

Peace :)

all the best

[Pygoscelis]

Why would a god have to eat?

[جوري]

^^ good question, indeed I'd like to know why God would eat, have bowel movements, get angry at a tree he allegedly created, pray, feel fear, or die...

Doesn't make him perfect, omnipotent, or at all divine.. unless there is a different definition of God than what the rest of us know?

[Pygoscelis]

Wonderful thing about Gods is they can be whatever you want them to be.

[glo]

Why would a god have to eat?

^^ good question, indeed I'd like to know why God would eat, have bowel movements, get angry at a tree he allegedly created, pray, feel fear, or die...

He would indeed do all those things, if he came to earth in human form ...

Skye, I find your comments and questions very helpful in helping me to understand how and why Muslims must find the Christian faith so frustrating, and how they must struggle to understand the Christian way of thinking and believing (if indeed they are inclined to try to understand their Christian brothers and sisters in humanity).

You ask how exactly Christians are like Jesus.
If you read my post, you will realise that I didn't say we were like Jesus, but that we aim to be like him.
(Having said that, I do indeed believe that we are like Jesus - at least underneath our flaws and faults :-[. After all, we are all made in the image of God! By aiming to be like Jesus (who we believe to be God in human form) and trusting in the power of God's Spirit and guidance in our loves, we hope to gradually strip away those flaws and faults ...)

How do we try to imitate Jesus, if not through external things such as clothing, food etc?
We look at his teachings; at the values he taught; the compassion he showed to those outcast or discriminated by society: women, non-Jews, prostitutes, sinners; the way he spent time in conversation/prayer with the Father; the way he taught us to pray ...
There is much to learn from Jesus, other than what clothes he wore or whether he tied his left or right sandal first ... don't you think?
Have you read the gospels for yourself, Skye?

Peace, sis :)

[Danah]

very good thread :thumbs_up

when I read the thread, the first thing came to my mind was this:

Many Christians or the majority of them are following the teachings of Paul not Jesus, may be this is the reason of why they are doing what Jesus didn't do in his life.
I remember reading this sentence:

Christianity is commonly said to owe as much to Paul as to Jesus

for some reason, both are considered at the same place in Christianity, I meet some Christians on the internet and many of them said that most of the Christians in the current time are following the teachings of Paul not Jesus.

Can that explain why they are eating pigs or do what Jesus did not do??


another thing, about God eating food, If God eat food when he is the "human form" as they claimed then we can say that he is acting exactly like humans "while he is in the human form", right?
How can we considered him as a God when he is not superior to humans and act EXACTLY like them? someone explain this to me plz, because there must be a kind of differentiated!!

[Keltoi]

The issue remains and always will remain the very different understanding of who God is in the context of Christianity vs Islam. Many Muslims view the Christian understanding of God as "less than godlike" due to Christ's human form. Christians view this as natural evidence of God's limitless power and mercy.

The thread title shows another issue. As Glo mentioned, Muslims believe they are to imitate Mohammed in as many ways as possible. In Christianity, we do not believe physical imitation or diet bring one closer to God. Christ did not view these rituals as important as the content of the spirit and the heart. What good is the imitation of righteousness compared to true righteousness of the heart and soul?

For Christians, that is one of the many important lessons Christ taught us.

[جوري]

He would indeed do all those things, if he came to earth in human form ...

Why would God assume human form?

Skye, I find your comments and questions very helpful in helping me to understand how and why Muslims must find the Christian faith so frustrating, and how they must struggle to understand the Christian way of thinking and believing (if indeed they are inclined to try to understand their Christian brothers and sisters in humanity).

I really don't think it is reserved to just Muslims, how does any christian justify this to anyone whom they are trying to indoctrinate into Christianity?

You ask how exactly Christians are like Jesus.
If you read my post, you will realise that I didn't say we were like Jesus, but that we aim to be like him.

semantics, how do you aim to be more like him? do you 'aim' to be minigods?

(Having said that, I do indeed believe that we are like Jesus - at least underneath our flaws and faults :-[. After all, we are all made in the image of God! By aiming to be like Jesus (who we believe to be God in human form) and trusting in the power of God's Spirit and guidance in our loves, we hope to gradually strip away those flaws and faults ...)

That is just filler, I am not sure how you aim to be like Jesus?

How do we try to imitate Jesus, if not through external things such as clothing, food etc?
We look at his teachings; at the values he taught; the compassion he showed to those outcast or discriminated by society: women, non-Jews, prostitutes, sinners; the way he spent time in conversation/prayer with the Father; the way he taught us to pray ...

You pray like Jesus? also, the teachings of Jesus are shared by ALL messengers, why look at only his teachings? plus have you read the bible views on women (Corinthians) are those Jesus' views?

There is much to learn from Jesus, other than what clothes he wore or whether he tied his left or right sandal first ... don't you think?
Have you read the gospels for yourself, Skye?

worship has nothing to do with clothes.. and indeed I have read your 'Gospel' I didn't find that which you attribute to Jesus on there!

Peace, sis :)

all the best

[جوري]

The issue remains and always will remain the very different understanding of who God is in the context of Christianity vs Islam. Many Muslims view the Christian understanding of God as "less than godlike" due to Christ's human form. Christians view this as natural evidence of God's limitless power and mercy.

actually it is the context of Christianity vs. what they are selling to others as 'truth', I reference you of course to such members as 'follower', 'Alapiana' et. al.

The thread title shows another issue. As Glo mentioned, Muslims believe they are to imitate Mohammed in as many ways as possible. In Christianity, we do not believe physical imitation or diet bring one closer to God. Christ did not view these rituals as important as the content of the spirit and the heart. What good is the imitation of righteousness compared to true righteousness of the heart and soul?

'righteousness' is a relative issue-- I certainly don't view the deception of Christians as righteousness and neither do other people, least of which then they go indoctrinating others by way of deception ( the stealth crusade), the end justifies the mean type thing.. further, if we are to compare, Islamic practices are that which we believe God dictates and wants, Christian practices by mere history are those which Paul/doubting Thomas and the clan want, not those of Jesus given he himself didn't practice them nor enforced them.
doing things aright doesn't translate to less importance as the content of the heart and soul, given that one should practice them out of purity of the 'heart and soul'-- why else would want take the effort and time then and by whose standards are we judging??

For Christians, that is one of the many important lessons Christ taught us.

The rest of us don't view the christian life style as the 'teachings of christ'

all the best

[idk]

Interestingly enough I read not so long ago that statues and images of Jesus were not used in churches in the first centuries.
Perhaps people's understanding of what an 'idol' is has changed over time.

That was probably before paul, who hated christians, had that 'vision' overnight and decided to ruin everyones lives. When he went to Rome, he saw that they believed that their gods walked freely among humans and even managed to have children with them. Which i think is where it all went wrong. Paul supposedly changed the christian religion based on the roman myths - which is why idols came into the churches - the romans prayed in temples to idols. And then from there he decided to spice it up even more - by declaring that jesus was god in human figure, who had a child (stakfirulah) with Mary and then was born from the same woman he had the child with.
And Pandoras box, - definately originated from a Roman myth. And the Romans saw that this religion was near enough to theirs to not change their life, but made more sense. I guess this is when the term Roman Catholic was made?

[Pygoscelis]

I could never get past the concept of God sacrificing himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind. Isn't that the trinity?

[AntiKarateKid]

I could never get past the concept of God sacrificing himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind. Isn't that the trinity?

As another member once put it so eloquently

Jesus pbuh had himself tortured and killed in order to save mankind from his own wrath.

On a different note all this talk about "personal" relationships gets me confused. We need a "personal relationship" with God in man-form to draw closer to God in...god-form?

[Keltoi]

I'm not going to get into another one of these threads telling Christians what it is they believe. I believe Glo and I have responded to the point of the thread, as much of a point as was there.

[جوري]

No one is forcing you you to partake into this thread or telling you what you believe, you have stated clearly what you believe and we have pointed out where it is flawed-- this should really serve as a reminder for the fundies on board (follower, Alapiana, Seeker, fedos, ab, and the rest) how easily Christianity can be dismantled before they get too ambitious!


all the best

[glo]

I'm not going to get into another one of these threads telling Christians what it is they believe. I believe Glo and I have responded to the point of the thread, as much of a point as was there.

Hi Keltoi

To be honest, the choice of thread title may have given a bit of a clue as to whether this thread was intending to invite peaceful and mutual exchange of information with regards to religious views and beliefs, or not.

Peace :)

[جوري]

I love your observations..

1-Do you find pigs offensive? I thought they were cute little creatures that you are by religious order allowed to eat?
2-Did any one bait you to reply to the topic?

all the best

[جوري]

interestingly enough, I had seen an anti-Islamic shirt with the logo:

which actually prompted me to start the thread, has your God declared war by dinning on Swine?

seems perfectly legitimate, considering what Christians do and allege.. or is it only offensive when someone questions back? a double hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself peaceful ones!

all the best

[Zafran]

Salaam

check this video out

Its called Joel Osteen teaches Christians about PORK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5ke...layer_embedded

peace

[جوري]

Salaam

check this video out

Its called Joel Osteen teaches Christians about PORK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5ke...layer_embedded

peace

What God tells them is quite irrelevant, but they can drown you in enough pietistical nonsense while alleging that others are hypocrites!

I am really sick of their antics!

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Gossamer skye;

interestingly enough, I had seen an anti-Islamic shirt with the logo:

which actually prompted me to start the thread, has your God declared war by dinning on Swine?

seems perfectly legitimate, considering what Christians do and allege.. or is it only offensive when someone questions back? a double hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself peaceful ones!

all the best

We can pray for each other, I am so sorry these things happen in the name of Christianity. At some point we shall all have to stand before the same God, my prayers are that he can forgive us all for the things we do to each other.

Blessings and peace be with you all

Eric

[glo]

Greetings, Skye

I love your observations..

1-Do you find pigs offensive? I thought they were cute little creatures that you are by religious order allowed to eat?

No, I don't find pigs offensive.
I thought the choice of the word 'swine', rather than 'pig' or 'pork' was interesting - it seems to have much more neggtive connotations.

2-Did any one bait you to reply to the topic?

No. I entered it out of my own free will. :)

But why do you feel the need to bait? What is the point?

interestingly enough, I had seen an anti-Islamic shirt with the logo:

which actually prompted me to start the thread, has your God declared war by dinning on Swine?

seems perfectly legitimate, considering what Christians do and allege.. or is it only offensive when someone questions back? a double hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself peaceful ones!

all the best

The comment on that T-shirt is highly offensive, and clearly intends to be exactly that!

I understand if it has caused you upset, and I am sorry that there are Christians who carry such anger and hatred!

Peace

[جوري]

Greetings, Skye

Greetings!

No, I don't find pigs offensive.

Great!

I thought the choice of the word 'swine', rather than 'pig' or 'pork' was interesting - it seems to have much more nragtive connotations.

Seems popular enough to put on shirts?!

No. I entered it out of my own free will. :)

Great

But why do you feel the need to bait? What is the point?

Where have I asserted my 'need to bait'?

The comment on that T-shirt is highly offensive, and clearly intends to be exactly that!

Indeed

I understand if it has caused you upset, and I am sorry that there are Christians who would carry such anger and hatred!

I'd say the great majority carry that anger and hatred whether overt or covert..

Peace

all the best

[جوري]

P.S
as an addendum .. pls try to refrain from using such terms as 'you must carry or feel or or' followed by assertion made about my person... it would in the least need to come in a seven-step-wise fashion to appear slightly sincere.. Do you think I was born yesterday? better yet, Do you know me?

all the best

[coddles76]

No one is forcing you you to partake into this thread or telling you what you believe, you have stated clearly what you believe and we have pointed out where it is flawed-- this should really serve as a reminder for the fundies on board (follower, Alapiana, Seeker, fedos, ab, and the rest) how easily Christianity can be dismantled before they get too ambitious!


all the best

I agree whole Heartedly, We don't tell you what christians believe, You tell us what christians believe and we merely state the contradictions and misconceptions in the hope that you and others that visit this site might come to the true teachings of jesus PBUH which is to worship the ONE true GOD, the creator of the heavens and the earth. Its a duty that we muslims owe Jesus so that his message and hard work doesn't just die in waste.

[Follower]

Did you hear about Egypt killing all the pigs because of the swine flu?!? LOL!!

GOD made His WORD incarnate to fufill His Law and offer one final sacrifice of a perfect being to pay the debt for all the sins committed by all mankind.

When Jesus didn't follow the Law He taught what is really needed from us, clean hearts- not outward rituals and deeds. Those don't purify our thoughts.

I see Islam as being very concerned about outward rituals and deeds.

[جوري]

Did you hear about Egypt killing all the pigs because of the swine flu?!? LOL!!

Did you hear they are canning the killed swine and exporting it to America given how much you love it? LOL

GOD made His WORD incarnate to fufill His Law and offer one final sacrifice of a perfect being to pay the debt for all the sins committed by all mankind.

Did your God dine on swine? the above doesn't answer the Q

When Jesus didn't follow the Law He taught what is really needed from us, clean hearts- not outward rituals and deeds. Those don't purify our thoughts.

Did Jesus your God break the OT law and eat piggies? because the way the world sees it, you are filthy in food and in outward habits

I see Islam as being very concerned about outward rituals and deeds.

You need to only concern yourself with how you'll have your swine this evening!

all the best

[Follower]

I don't eat pork, I'm mostly vegetarian, with ocassional chicken.

I was answering other posters.

We don't know if Jesus ate pork or not. It is not mentioned in the Holy Bible.

Gossamer- what makes you so grouchy? Have you been hurt by someone?

[جوري]

I don't eat pork, I'm mostly vegetarian, with ocassional chicken.

why are you so defensive about prohibitions that your religion neglected?

I was answering other posters.

yet quoting me in the process.. strange no?

We don't know if Jesus ate pork or not. It is not mentioned in the Holy Bible.

Once you know for certain whether or not your God ate pork do come share it!

Gossamer- what makes you so grouchy? Have you been hurt by someone?

It relaxes me!


all the best

[Follower]

why are you so defensive about prohibitions that your religion neglected?

Not sure what you mean here.

Once you know for certain whether or not your God ate pork do come share it!

well we know that the 100% GOD would not need to eat, but whther the 100% human ate pork don't know and never will. You seem very concerned about this?!?

[جوري]

why are you so defensive about prohibitions that your religion neglected?

Not sure what you mean here.

Once you know for certain whether or not your God ate pork do come share it!

well we know that the 100% GOD would not need to eat, but whther the 100% human ate pork don't know and never will. You seem very concerned about this?!?

isn't it amazing your God wouldn't need to eat yet accursed the tree for not bearing him fruit?... shouldn't God know what he created?

I am not concerned at all, as your paganist beliefs don't concern me personally.. I just want it out in the open!

happy evangelizing :smile:

[Follower]

This is a great example of Jesus teaching/showing His disciples how Israel had failed to produce good fruit-look at the horrible things going on in the Temple.

Mark 11

15On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written:
" 'My house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'"

18The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

19When evening came, they went out of the city.

20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
22"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

[memories]

I don't eat pork, I'm mostly vegetarian, with ocassional chicken.

I was answering other posters.

We don't know if Jesus ate pork or not. It is not mentioned in the Holy Bible.

Gossamer- what makes you so grouchy? Have you been hurt by someone?

I agree with follower here, Jesus was a human expression of god there you have it.

As for the ''ever dined on swine'' part, Jesus also said that it is what comes out of the mouth that make men impur and not what goes in the body, therefor swine= not impure. Its a weird rule actually ''not being allowed to dine on swine''

can someone give me the use of this rule?
''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.''
And all of thses rules he broke because the jews were in Darkness they would ''wash the outside of the cup but not the inside''


Regards.

[John Augustine]

How much of the commandments did this alleged God break?
1-unusual brand of prayers
2-no circumcision for males
3- ok to eat pigs
4-Ok to make idols in churches and bow before them
5--ok to forgo monotheism and logic all together...
6- Ok to sin, since sin is forgiven through his self-immolation

1 - He was willing to pray with prostitutes and tax-collecters which was pretty unusual.

2 - Circumcision was NEVER required for Gentiles. As such, even Jesus' JEWISH disciples had no qualms telling Gentiles that it was unnecessary for them.

3 - Jesus said that it is what comes out of a man, not what goes in, which makes him unclean.

4 - An idol is something worshipped as God. I don't worship any cross, icon or stained-glass window as God...

5 - Christians are STRICTLY monotheist. "Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity", see my thread.

6 - Not a Christian teaching. St. Paul wrote one of his letters to combat such a philosophy which has sprung up in Corinth.

[جوري]

This is a great example of Jesus teaching/showing His disciples how Israel had failed to produce good fruit-look at the horrible things going on in the Temple.

Mark 11

15On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written:
" 'My house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'"

18The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

19When evening came, they went out of the city.

20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
22"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

actually this is an example of how the Jews weren't in up keeping with their own commandments and Jesus a messenger for the Jews came to uphold it!.. so you have nullified your own point.
You are not supposed to sell goods in the house of God, it is only to be taken for worship not scheme and make money.. further should confirm to you the fact that he came to uphold the moral code of the OT (of those who have gone astray) not to abrogate it!

try again

all the best and happy evangelizing!

[جوري]

1 - He was willing to pray with prostitutes and tax-collecters which was pretty unusual.

Why is it unusual to pay for someone who can't make payment. Or is forced into a life style beyond his choice?

2 - Circumcision was NEVER required for Gentiles. As such, even Jesus' JEWISH disciples had no qualms telling Gentiles that it was unnecessary for them.

Show me the part where Jesus says, Don't circumcise or that 'I am the messenger of the gentiles"

3 - Jesus said that it is what comes out of a man, not what goes in, which makes him unclean.

Actually it was Paul who said that not Jesus!

4 - An idol is something worshipped as God. I don't worship any cross, icon or stained-glass window as God...

A statue of Jesus is a material effigy that is worshiped and that is the very definition of an Idol, further exacerbated by the fact that he never actually said I am your God so worship me!

5 - Christians are STRICTLY monotheist. "Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity", see my thread.

There is NO monotheism in reincarnation, or a God in multiple forms!

6 - Not a Christian teaching. St. Paul wrote one of his letters to combat such a philosophy which has sprung up in Corinth.

You have 'st' Paul to thank for many things then.. and one wonders why such threads as 'who is the founder of Christianity' receive such shock by the percentage Paul holds as its founder!

all the best

[John Augustine]

Show me the part where Jesus says, Don't circumcise or that 'I am the messenger of the gentiles"

John 12:32

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Actually it was Paul who said that not Jesus!

Nope, sorry:

14And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:

15There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

16If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

A statue of Jesus is a material effigy that is worshiped and that is the very definition of an Idol, further exacerbated by the fact that he never actually said I am your God so worship me!

Nobody worships a statue. God Himself commmanded that golden cherubim be put on the Ark of the Covenant in His Temple. There is a difference between an idol and religious artwork.

There is NO monotheism in reincarnation, or a God in multiple forms!

Not in multiple forms. One essence, three persons. Monotheism is retained.

You have 'st' Paul to thank for many things then.. and one wonders why such threads as 'who is the founder of Christianity' receive such shock by the percentage Paul holds as its founder!

On a Muslim majority board? That's just shocking...

[memories]

Why is it unusual to pay for someone who can't make payment. Or is forced into a life style beyond his choice?


Show me the part where Jesus says, Don't circumcise or that 'I am the messenger of the gentiles"


Actually it was Paul who said that not Jesus!


A statue of Jesus is a material effigy that is worshiped and that is the very definition of an Idol, further exacerbated by the fact that he never actually said I am your God so worship me!

There is NO monotheism in reincarnation, or a God in multiple forms!


You have 'st' Paul to thank for many things then.. and one wonders why such threads as 'who is the founder of Christianity' receive such shock by the percentage Paul holds as its founder!

all the best

1: God was here for the tax collectors and the prostitutes because they need him the most.

2: Dosent matter wheter a passage says it or not.

3: No , It was jesus, Paul is one of the Apostoles of Jesus eyewitness to what happened.

4:A cross is a symbolic representation of our faith, not an Idol that is beleived to haver magical powers and so forth

5:''Christians are STRICTLY monotheist. "Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity", see my thread.'' still stands ;)

6: such a high percentage think its paul because this is an islamic forum, no knowledge of the bible whatsoever, Christianity begs to differ.

thats what I think :)

[جوري]

1: God was here for the tax collectors and the prostitutes because they need him the most.

2: Dosent matter wheter a passage says it or not.

3: No , It was jesus, Paul is one of the Apostoles of Jesus eyewitness to what happened.

4:A cross is a symbolic representation of our faith, not an Idol that is beleived to haver magical powers and so forth

5:''Christians are STRICTLY monotheist. "Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity", see my thread.'' still stands ;)

6: such a high percentage think its paul because this is an islamic forum, no knowledge of the bible whatsoever, Christianity begs to differ.

thats what I think :)

I have already covered the above and will not again as I tire of redundancy, However, I must admit, according to our dear long standing member Gene (Grace Seeker)
Jesus and Paul NEVER met.. and it was a little known fact that Paul preached against Christianity..
So him making Pigs Ok, is really of his own choosing and not Jesus' let alone God's choosing..
If God wanted to abrogate his commandments, he would have carried it out while alive, the apostles seemed confused about their rolls at best, with Peter denouncing Jesus before his death, see my previous comments on the fact. Or in the least he would have done it through his apostles, as confused as they were, at least they were hand picked. He wouldn't have done it later through a shady character with political gains..

all the best

all the best

[memories]

I have already covered the above and will not again as I tire of redundancy, However, I must admit, according to our dear long standing member Gene (Grace Seeker)
Jesus and Paul NEVER met.. and it was a little known fact that Paul preached against Christianity..
So him making Pigs Ok, is really of his own choosing and not Jesus' let alone God's choosing..
If God wanted to abrogate his commandments, he would have carried it out while alive, the apostles seemed confused about their rolls at best, with Peter denouncing Jesus before his death, see my previous comments on the fact. Or in the least he would have done it through his apostles, as confused as they were, at least they were hand picked. He wouldn't have done it later through a shady character with political gains..

all the best

all the best

Ok, however Id like to see you providing proof from reliable websites as to the fact you mentionned here that Paul and Jesus never met, because I have always tought the contrary.

[جوري]

John 12:32

International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Nope, sorry:

sorry doesn't cut it.. you don't even know who actually authored your bibles, let alone that it was Jesus who said that.. it was Paul!

Nobody worships a statue. God Himself commmanded that golden cherubim be put on the Ark of the Covenant in His Temple. There is a difference between an idol and religious artwork.

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything" (Exodus 20:4). ''
that is what an 'Idol' is, a carved religious figure!.. what do you think they are? teenage hopefuls singing on fox?

Not in multiple forms. One essence, three persons. Monotheism is retained.

Three persons doesn't equal one, it is a simple lesson in logic!

On a Muslim majority board? That's just shocking...

I think the Muslims on board who participate on comparative religion are of Christian background.. and lastly, I think we've been very tolerant.. When I was on Atheist and Christian forums, I didn't last two days and most of my posts were deleted.. let's contrast that with how many buffoons remain on this board for yrs, very well tolerated and invited even to people's homes!

all the best

[جوري]

Ok, however Id like to see you providing proof from reliable websites as to the fact you mentionned here that Paul and Jesus never met, because I have always tought the contrary.

That is a matter you should take out with Grace Seeker.. our very own forum pastor!

all the best

[memories]

That is a matter you should take out with Grace Seeker.. our very own forum pastor!

all the best

No, your the one that says Paul and Jesus never met, Id like to see some proof bout that (seriously I would).

Who in the world is grace seeker?? why coax me into seeking proof from some other forum member: produce it now, you said: ''Jesus and Paul NEVER met.. and it was a little known fact that Paul preached against Christianity'' Now go ahead back that up.

you make it a very fervent and important ''devoir'' trying to dismantle fundamental beleifs of christianity, go ahead back that up.

[جوري]

No, your the one that says Paul and Jesus never met, Id like to see some proof bout that (seriously I would).

.

excerpted from: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1140502

. The problem is that there is no record that Jesus and Paul ever met prior to Jesus' death, or even prior to Jesus' ascension. The only recorded meeting between the two of them, took place some time after Jesus had already ascended to heaven, in which he appeared to Paul in a theophany that took place as Paul was on his way to persecute some of those who, post-Crucifixion/Resurrection event, had become followers of "the Way" (as the Christians were at that time known) under the preaching of Peter and the other disciples. But Paul was never one of that group of disciples. So, it is completely erroneous to say that "he [Jesus] was on bad tersm with him [Paul]", and truly does show a very poor understanding of the bible, just as memories has said -- and that's just one illustration out of many.

two points:
1- I really hate to repeat myself and to be made to look for posts. If you can't keep up with a thread you've actually participated, then don't waste anyone's time.. This shows that you don't read and just want to yap, the problem is, you don't even wish to read the christian view as written by Christians!
2- Nothing in my opinion is worst than ignorance, save for blurting out various stupidities that are at odd even with your alleged own chosen way of life..

You think folks here myself included are 'indoctrinated', to which you are entitled to your opinion.. If you desire to prove a point, the least you can do is a courtesy read before participating on a thread..

It gives me somewhat of a pleasure to make show of you and repeatedly on various posts. But I DON'T have the time to descend to word play or to deal with your adolescent insecurities.. I suggest for your own sake, and if you desire to have some meaningful conversation on ANY forum
1- that you familiarize yourself with the topic you are engaging.
2- If you don't have an intelligent answer, that you simply keep silent and learn from someone who is, especially if it be a christian who has had more yrs of experience than you!

[memories]

Back on topic-:rolleyes:

And I would really like some one,any one, to provide the websites about the issue I mentionned earlier (grave seeker for instance) as this is quite interesting to me,

not just cite what some other member has said regarding this in another topic, thanks in advance and back on the... swine.. topic.. :):happy:

Regards.

[John Augustine]

International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Sorry, 10:32

sorry doesn't cut it.. you don't even know who actually authored your bibles, let alone that it was Jesus who said that.. it was Paul!

The human scribes are of little importance. God inspired them.

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything" (Exodus 20:4). ''
that is what an 'Idol' is, a carved religious figure!.. what do you think they are? teenage hopefuls singing on fox?

Then why did God command there to be golden cherubim on the Ark?

Three persons doesn't equal one, it is a simple lesson in logic!

One what? If I were to say three persons = one person

THAT

would clearly be false.

But I'm not: Christianity teaches 3 personae in one essence.

I think the Muslims on board who participate on comparative religion are of Christian background.. and lastly, I think we've been very tolerant.. When I was on Atheist and Christian forums, I didn't last two days and most of my posts were deleted.. let's contrast that with how many buffoons remain on this board for yrs, very well tolerated and invited even to people's homes!

Thank you for your tolerance :)

['Abd-al Latif]

The human scribes are of little importance. God inspired them.

Which is according to the christian view. The bible was inspired according to christians. Read the original hebrew and you'll come to realise that the word 'god' in Hebrew is literally 'Allah'.

And Allah is the same god who revealed the Qur'an and he says:

Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no Crookedness:

(He hath made it) Straight (and Clear) in order that He may warn (the godless) of a terrible Punishment from Him, and that He may give Glad Tidings to the Believers who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a goodly Reward,

Wherein they shall remain for ever:

Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "Allah hath begotten a son":

No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood! [Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave) 18:1-5]

Seeing as you probably don't know Hebrew, let me see if I can dig up a video of someone saying god (or should I say - Allah) in Hebrew.

Then why did God command there to be golden cherubim on the Ark?

According to the bible. I don't know what exctally a 'golden cherubim' is but I assume it's an angel, correct me if i'm wrong.

The real reason for the Ark being built is because the nation that Noah was sent to had rejected him for an entire lifetime until finally Allah had told him to build an Ark. When the Ark was built, every arragont disbeliever was drowned from rain while ever believer who believed in Noah was saved in the Ark. This was the tourment in this world for the disbelievers, yet the tourment of the next life is even worse.

One what? If I were to say three persons = one person

THAT

would clearly be false.

But I'm not: Christianity teaches 3 personae in one essence.

Take any mathmetical calculation, you will end up with the number 3 or a higher number. God, Jesus and the holy spirit = 3 i.e. 1+1+1=3.

3 multiplied by 1 = 3

3 add 1 = 4

3 means three and not one (1).

Unless one has to believe without questioning or logical reasoning then 3 = 1. If at the least you think about it then 3=3.

Thank you for your tolerance :)

You're welcome.

[جوري]

Sorry, 10:32

10:32 means nothing if at odds with another passage.. Either an act of deception or nullify each other out!

The human scribes are of little importance. God inspired them.

Inspiration comes in all forms.. if we are to go by inspiration, then the Gods of Hinduism makes as much sense as the gods of Christianity! Religion should be satisfactory to both heart and mind!

Then why did God command there to be golden cherubim on the Ark?

I don't know that half of the stories you ascribe to god have anything to do with god.. according to Christian theologians, even the story of Mary Magdalene is not found in early biblical text, Never occurred.. but a later addition of men's fancy!

One what? If I were to say three persons = one person

Three persons don't equal one person, and gods aren't human, don't suffer human fate or succumb to human folly!

But I'm not: Christianity teaches 3 personae in one essence.

Well good for Christianity-- We call that shirk in Islam.. and a huge sin at that!

Thank you for your tolerance :)

all the best

[memories]

10:32 means nothing if at odds with another passage.

I found this for those that say this didnt happen or this was enhanced et.


''Worldwide, there are 24,800 copies of these original manuscripts. These include the Codex Vaticanus (325-350 AD) located in the Vatican library and the Codex Siniaticus (350 AD) located in the British Museum. There are also 80,000 quotations in the works of early Christian writers which are so extensive that the New Testament could virtually be reconstructed from them without the actual New Testament documents. Then there is the obvious fact that the Christian Gospels were so widely distributed both before and after Mohammed, that any attempt to change (add/subtract) something in the Christian Gospels would have resulted in immediate discovery.

As to the Tauret (Torah), Jewish scribes painstakingly copied it via a system of checking, double checking and adding each letter on each line. Any attempt to change something in the Torah would have resulted in immediate discovery. And copies of the Torah from around the world agree exactly.

This same quality of transmission cannot be said of the Islamic Qur'an. The Islamic Qur'an was written down from 3rd and 4th hand accounts; and from a few thoughts written on scrap papers --and compiled 200-300 yrs after Mohammed died in 632 A.D. See corrupted Qur'an here Considering the absence of external and internal evidence that should effectively verify the revelatory character of the Qur'an, we find it very hard, if not impossible, to accept the Qur'an as a Message sent by God. This is particularly so, because the Qur'an contradicts earlier revelation, the evidence for the origin of which is given in Qur'an 5:46/47 and 43:63 below.''

Islam has always tryed to sell that the bible is corrupted.. this is not new... some threads here give fine examples :)
and lastly Muslims have no choice but to believe in the Christian Bible and the Apostles who wrote it. The Qur'an forbids anyone, on pain of shameful punishment, from making distinctions between the authority of the apostles and prophets of God, or from choosing between God's words. No one is permitted to believe in part and reject a part. Those who presume to do so, it says, are infidels in reality (Sura 4:150-52; 2:89; 2:139; 42:15; 29:46-47).




Regards.

[GreyKode]

I found this for those that say this didnt happen or this was enhanced et.


''Worldwide, there are 24,800 copies of these original manuscripts. These include the Codex Vaticanus (325-350 AD) located in the Vatican library and the Codex Siniaticus (350 AD) located in the British Museum. There are also 80,000 quotations in the works of early Christian writers which are so extensive that the New Testament could virtually be reconstructed from them without the actual New Testament documents. Then there is the obvious fact that the Christian Gospels were so widely distributed both before and after Mohammed, that any attempt to change (add/subtract) something in the Christian Gospels would have resulted in immediate discovery.

As to the Tauret (Torah), Jewish scribes painstakingly copied it via a system of checking, double checking and adding each letter on each line. Any attempt to change something in the Torah would have resulted in immediate discovery. And copies of the Torah from around the world agree exactly.

This same quality of transmission cannot be said of the Islamic Qur'an. The Islamic Qur'an was written down from 3rd and 4th hand accounts; and from a few thoughts written on scrap papers --and compiled 200-300 yrs after Mohammed died in 632 A.D. See corrupted Qur'an here Considering the absence of external and internal evidence that should effectively verify the revelatory character of the Qur'an, we find it very hard, if not impossible, to accept the Qur'an as a Message sent by God. This is particularly so, because the Qur'an contradicts earlier revelation, the evidence for the origin of which is given in Qur'an 5:46/47 and 43:63 below.''

Islam has always tryed to sell that the bible is corrupted.. this is not new... some threads here give fine examples :)
and lastly Muslims have no choice but to believe in the Christian Bible and the Apostles who wrote it. The Qur'an forbids anyone, on pain of shameful punishment, from making distinctions between the authority of the apostles and prophets of God, or from choosing between God's words. No one is permitted to believe in part and reject a part. Those who presume to do so, it says, are infidels in reality (Sura 4:150-52; 2:89; 2:139; 42:15; 29:46-47).


Regards.

Ok.. you be the judge.
The only book on the face of the earth that is memorized completely letter by letter, by not thousands but millions is the holy Qur'an. And you can try to check it out.
Is this not efficient enough to preserve it?

[جوري]

I found this for those that say this didnt happen or this was enhanced et.


''Worldwide, there are 24,800 copies of these original manuscripts. These include the Codex Vaticanus (325-350 AD) located in the Vatican library and the Codex Siniaticus (350 AD)



Regards.

Indeed and thank you for supporting what I wrote, between the death of your God and 325-350 AD are a few centuries to get creative.

all the best

[GreyKode]

Way to go with the anti-Islamic websites.
You should carefully pick your sources, no? You don't want to be indoctrinated right?

['Abd-al Latif]

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