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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 01:58 AM
This thread is about the ethics and im/morality of slavery. Go
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Keltoi
04-23-2009, 02:00 AM
Does there actually need to be a debate about this issue?
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burdenofbeing
04-23-2009, 07:21 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Does there actually need to be a debate about this issue?
keltoi is right. there is no need for a debate. it is not morally acceptable. in most countries.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
keltoi is right. there is no need for a debate. it is not morally acceptable. in most countries.
Why did you add in most countries?
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burdenofbeing
04-23-2009, 11:50 AM
because it is?
you know moral values and ethics differ in different countries/cultures
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ardianto
04-23-2009, 03:16 PM
The modern day slavery : Human Trafficking.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/traffi...n_human_beings

www.humantrafficking.com

www.polarisproject.org
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Thinker
04-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Slave. A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another.

Servant. One who serves, or does services, voluntarily or on compulsion; a person who is employed by another for menial offices, or for other labour, and is subject to his command; a person who labours or exerts himself for the benefit of another, his master or employer; a subordinate

A slave can also serve (be a servant) a servant cannot be a slave.

To enslave a person for any reason is a crime contrary to the UN Charter on human rights and so far 25% of the poll believe it OK to do so!
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GreyKode
04-23-2009, 06:35 PM
Slave. A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another.
well we don't all agree on the definition of slave, so the answers vary.
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Uthman
04-23-2009, 06:44 PM
Must see topic:

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...3-slavery.html
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burdenofbeing
04-23-2009, 06:55 PM
^I think the argument in the thread you've linked is weak and dangerous.
I mean look at this: "From this factual information it should be clear that slavery was to be eliminated in Islam."
What does this mean! Isn't Islam complete? If that is an inability, whose inability is this? Very dangerous.


Why didn't the prophet say, "eventually, abolish slavery"
Alcohol was banned in steps, but eventually banned. Why not slavery?

Islam at least entertains the idea of slavery, and muslims should think accordingly.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 07:03 PM
Praise be to Allaah.

Discussing slavery and asking questions about it on the part of those who promote Christianity and try to divert people from following the religion of Islam is something that annoys the wise person and makes him point the finger of accusation towards the ulterior motives that lie behind these questions.

That is because slavery is well established in Judaism and Christianity, where it has taken unjust forms. They have many books which discuss that in detail and condone it. Therefore it makes you wonder: how can these churchmen call people to Christianity when Christianity condones and legitimizes slavery?

In other words: how can they stir up an issue when they themselves are up to their necks in it?!

The issue of slavery is completely different when discussed from the angles of Christianity and Islam, and when compared with the situation that prevailed at the advent of Islam.

Hence we must discuss this topic in some detail with reference to what is said in Judaism, Christianity and contemporary culture on this matter, then we will speak of slavery in Islam.

Many lies have been fabricated about Islam on this topic, at a time when criminals with lengthy track records are safe and nobody points a finger at them.

Islam and slavery:

Islam affirms that Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, created man fully accountable, and enjoined duties upon him, to which reward and punishment are connected on the basis of man’s free will and choice.

No human being has the right to restrict this freedom or take away that choice unlawfully; whoever dares to do that is a wrongdoer and oppressor.

This is one of the basic principles of Islam. When the question is asked: why does Islam permit slavery? We reply emphatically and without shame that slavery is permitted in Islam, but we should examine the matter with fairness and with the aim of seeking the truth, and we should examine the details of the rulings on slavery in Islam, with regard to the sources and reasons for it, and how to deal with the slave and how his rights and duties are equal to those of the free man, and the ways in which he may earn his freedom, of which there are many in sharee’ah, whilst also taking into consideration the new types of slavery in this world which is pretending to be civilized, modern and progressive.

When Islam came, there were many causes of slavery, such as warfare, debt (where if the debtor could not pay off his debt, he became a slave), kidnapping and raids, and poverty and need.

Slavery did not spread in this appalling manner throughout all continents except by means of kidnapping; rather the main source of slaves in Europe and America in later centuries was this method.

The texts of Islam took a strong stance against this. It says in a hadeeth qudsi: “Allaah, may He be exalted, said: ‘There are three whose opponent I will be on the Day of Resurrection, and whomever I oppose, I will defeat … A man who sold a free man and consumed his price.’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2227).

It is worth pointing out that you do not find any text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah which enjoins taking others as slaves, whereas there are dozens of texts in the Qur’aan and the ahaadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which call for manumitting slaves and freeing them.

There were many sources of slaves at the time of the advent of Islam, whereas the means of manumitting them were virtually nil. Islam changed the way in which slavery was dealt with; it created many new ways of liberating slaves, blocked many ways of enslaving people, and established guidelines which blocked these means.

Islam limited the sources of slaves that existed before the beginning of the Prophet’s mission to one way only: enslavement through war which was imposed on kaafir prisoners-of-war and on their womenfolk and children.

Shaykh al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The reason for slavery is kufr and fighting against Allaah and His Messenger. When Allaah enables the Muslim mujaahideen who are offering their souls and their wealth, and fighting with all their strength and with what Allaah has given them to make the word of Allaah supreme over the kuffaar, then He makes them their property by means of slavery unless the ruler chooses to free them for nothing or for a ransom, if that serves the interests of the Muslims. End quote from Adwa’ al-Bayaan (3/387).

He also said:

If it is said: If the slave becomes Muslim then why keep him as a slave, when the reason for slavery is kufr and fighting against Allaah and His Messenger, so this reason no longer applies?

The answer is that the well known principle among the scholars and all wise people, which is that the previously established right cannot be erased by a right that is established later, and that what came first takes precedence, is obvious.

When the Muslims captured kuffaar, their right to possession was affirmed by the law of the Creator of all, Who is All Wise and All Knowing. So this right is confirmed and established. Then if the slave became Muslim after that, his right to escape slavery by embracing Islam was superseded by the mujaahid’s prior right to take possession of him before he became Muslim, and it would be unjust and unfair to annul the prior right because of a subsequent right, as is well known to all wise people.

Yes, it is good for the master to free the slave if he becomes Muslim. The Lawgiver enjoined and encouraged that, and opened many doors to it. Glory be to the Most Wise, the All Knowing. “And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All‑Hearer, the All‑Knower” [al-An’aam 6:115].

“in truth” means in what He tells us, and “in justice” means in His rulings.

Undoubtedly this justice refers to owning slaves and other rulings of the Qur’aan.

How many people criticize something sound when their problem is their own misunderstanding. End quote from Adwa’ al-Bayaan (3/389).

Capture of prisoners during war was the most common way of acquiring slaves. Prisoners would inevitably be captured during any war, and the prevalent custom at that time was that prisoners had no protection or rights; they would either be killed or enslaved. But Islam brought two more options: unconditional release or ransom. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam)” [Muhammad 47:4]. During the battle of Badr the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted ransoms from the mushrik prisoners of war and let them go, and the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) let many of the prisoners go for free, releasing them with no ransom. During the conquest of Makkah it was said to the people of Makkah: “Go, for you are free.”

During the campaign of Banu’l-Mustaliq, the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married a female prisoner from the defeated tribe so as to raise her status, as she was the daughter of one of their leaders, namely the Mother of the Believers Juwayriyah bint al-Haarith (may Allaah be pleased with her). Then the Muslims let all of these prisoners go.

Islam is not thirsty for the blood of prisoners, nor is it eager to enslave them.

Thus we may understand the limited ways that can lead to slavery. Islam did not abolish it altogether, because the kaafir prisoner who was opposed to truth and justice was a wrongdoer, or was a supporter of wrongdoing or was a tool in the execution or approval of wrongdoing. Letting him go free would give him the opportunity to spread wrongdoing and aggression against others and to oppose the truth and prevent it reaching people.

Freedom is a basic human right which cannot be taken away from a person except for a reason. When Islam accepted slavery within the limits that we have described, it put restrictions on the man who exploits his freedom in the worst possible way. If he was taken prisoner in a war of aggression in which he was defeated, then the proper conduct is to keep him in reasonable conditions throughout his detention.

Despite all that, Islam offers many opportunities to restore freedom to him and people like him.

The principle of dealing with slaves in Islam is a combination of justice, kindness and compassion.

One of the means of liberating slaves is allocating a portion of zakaah funds to freeing slaves; the expiation for accidental killing, zihaar (a jaahili form of divorce that is forbidden), breaking vows and having intercourse during the day in Ramadaan, is to free a slave. In addition to that, Muslims are also encouraged in general terms to free slaves for the sake of Allaah.

This is a brief summary of some of the principles of dealing with slaves in a just and kind manner:

1 – Guaranteeing them food and clothing like that of their masters.

It was narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “They are your brothers whom Allaah has put under your authority, so if Allaah has put a person’s brother under his authority, let him feed him from what he eats and clothe him from what he wears, and let him not overburden him with work, and if he does overburden him with work, then let him help him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6050).

2 – Preserving their dignity

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I heard Abu’l-Qaasim (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever accuses his slave when he is innocent of what he says will be flogged on the Day of Resurrection, unless he is as he said.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6858).

Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) manumitted a slave of his, then he picked up a stick or something from the ground and said: There is no more reward in it than the equivalent of this, but I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever slaps his slave or beats him, his expiation is to manumit him.” Narrated by Muslim (1657).

3 – Being fair towards slaves and treating them kindly

It was narrated that ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan tweaked the ear of a slave of his when he did something wrong, then he said to him after that: Come and tweak my ear in retaliation. The slave refused but he insisted, so he started to tweak it slightly, and he said to him: Do it strongly, for I cannot bear the punishment on the Day of Resurrection. The slave said: Like that, O my master? The Day that you fear I fear also.

When ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf (may Allaah be pleased with him) walked among his slaves, no one could tell him apart from them, because he did not walk ahead of them, and he did not wear anything different from what they wore.

One day ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab passed by and saw some slaves standing and not eating with their master. He got angry and said to their master: What is wrong with people who are selfish towards their servants? Then he called the servants and they ate with them.

A man entered upon Salmaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) and found him making dough – and he was a governor. He said to him: O Abu ‘Abd-Allaah, what is this? He said: We have sent our servant on an errand and we do not want to give him two jobs at once.

4 – There is nothing wrong with slaves having precedence over free men in some matters

- with regard to any religious or worldly matters in which he excels over him. For example, it is valid for a slave to lead the prayer. ‘Aa’ishah the Mother of the Believers had a slave who would lead her in prayer. Indeed the Muslims have been commanded to hear and obey even if a slave is appointed in charge of their affairs.

5 – A slave may buy himself from his master and be free.

If a person is enslaved for some reason but then it becomes apparent that he has given up his wrongdoing and forgotten his past, and he has become a man who shuns evil and seeks to do good, is it permissible to respond to his request to let him go free? Islam says yes, and there are some fuqaha’ who say that this is obligatory and some who say that it is mustahabb.

This is what is called a mukaatabah or contract of manumission between the slave and his master. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allaah which He has bestowed upon you”

[al-Noor 24:33]

This is how Islam treats slaves justly and kindly.

One of the results of these guidelines is that in many cases, the slave would become a friend of his master; in some cases the master would regard him as a son. Sa’d ibn Haashim al-Khaalidi said, describing a slave of his:

He is not a slave, rather he is a son whom [Allaah] has put under my care.

He has supported me with his good service; he is my hands and my arms.

Another result of the Muslims treating slaves in this manner is that the slaves became part of Muslim families as if they were also family members.

Gustave le Bon says in Hadaarat al-‘Arab (Arab Civilization) (p. 459-460): What I sincerely believe is that slavery among the Muslims is better than slavery among any other people, and that the situation of slaves in the east is better than that of servants in Europe, and that slaves in the east are part of the family. Slaves who wanted to be free could attain freedom by expressing their wish. But despite that, they did not resort to exercising this right. End quote.

How did non-Muslims treat slaves?

Attitude of the Jews towards slaves:

According to the Jews, mankind is divided into two groups: the Israelites form one group and all of mankind is another group.

As for the Israelites, it is permissible to enslave some of them, according to specific teachings contained in the Old Testament.

As for people other than the Israelites, they are a low-class race according to the Jews, who may be enslaved via domination and subjugation, because they are people who are doomed to humiliation by the heavenly decree from eternity. It says in Exodus 21:2-6:

“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him.

4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

5 But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,'

6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life”

As for enslaving non-Hebrews, this is done by taking them captive or overpowering them, because they believe that their race is superior to others, and they try to find a justification for that slavery in their distorted Torah. So they say that Ham the son of Noah – who was the father of Canaan – angered his father, because Noah was drunk one day and became naked as he was sleeping in his tent, and Ham saw him like that. When Noah found out about that after he woke up, he got angry and he cursed his progeny who were descendents of Canaan, and he said – according to the Book of Genesis 9:25-26): “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.’ He also said, ‘Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.’”

In the same chapter (v. 27) it says: “May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his [or their] slave”.

In the Book of Deuteronomy 20:10-14, it says:

“When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.

11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.

13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.

14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves”

Attitude of the Christians towards slaves:

Christianity confirmed slavery as it had been affirmed beforehand by Judaism. There is no text in the Gospels that prohibits or denounces slavery. It is remarkable that the historian William Muir criticized our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for not immediately abolishing slavery, whilst overlooking the attitude of the Gospels concerning slavery, as there is no report from the Messiah, or from the Disciples, or from the churches concerning this issue.

Rather, in his Epistles, Paul advised that slaves should be loyal to their masters, as he says in his Epistle to the Ephesians, where he enjoins slaves to obey their masters as they would obey the Messiah:

“5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men,

8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free”

(Ephesians 6:5-9).

In Grand Larousse encyclopédique, it says: It comes as no surprise that slavery has continued among Christians until today; the official representatives of the faith have affirmed its validity and accepted its legitimacy.

… to sum up: the Christian religion approved fully of slavery and still does so today. It is very difficult for anyone to prove that Christianity strove to abolish slavery.

The saints affirmed that nature makes some people slaves.

Churchmen did not prevent slavery or oppose it; rather they supported it, to such an extent that the philosopher saint Thomas Aquinas supported the philosophical view that agreed with the view of religious leaders, and he did not object to slavery, rather he praised it because – according to the view of Aristotle – it is one of the conditions in which some people are created naturally, and it does not contradict faith for a man to be content with the lowest position in life.

Haqaa’iq al-Islam by al-‘Aqqaad (p. 215).

In the Dictionary of the Bible by Dr. George Yousuf it says: Christianity did not object to slavery for political or economic reasons, and it did not urge believers to oppose their generation’s views with regard to slavery, or even debate it, and it did not say anything against the rights of slave owners or motivate the slaves to seek independence; it did not discuss the harm or harshness of slavery and it did not enjoin the immediate release of slaves.

It did not change anything in the nature of the relationship between master and slave; on the contrary, it affirmed the rights and duties of both parties.

Contemporary Europe and slavery

It is the reader’s right, in this era of advancement and progress, to ask questions about the pioneers of this progress and the numbers of people who died because of the way in which they were hunted, and who died on their way to the coast where the ships of the English Company and others would wait, then the rest died due to changes in climate. Approximately 4% died as they were being loaded onto the ships, and 12 % during the journey, let alone those who died in the colonies.

The slave trade continued at the hands of English companies that obtained the right of monopoly with the permission of the British government, then gave free rein to British subjects to enslave people. Some experts estimate that the total number of people seized by the British during slavery and exiled to the colonies between 1680 and 1786 CE was around 2,130,000.

When Europe made contact with Black Africa, this contact led to human misery during which the black people of that continent were faced with a major calamity that lasted for five centuries. The states of Europe came up with evil ways of kidnapping these people and bringing them to their lands to serve as fuel for their revival, where they burdened them with more work than they could bear. When America was discovered, the calamity increased and they became slaves in two continents instead of just one.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica says (2/779) on the topic of slavery: Hunting slaves in the villages that were surrounded by the jungle was done by lighting fires in the straw of which the corrals surrounding the villages were made, then when the villagers fled to open land, the British hunted them down with whatever means they had at their disposal.

During the period from 1661 to 1774, for every million Black Africans who reached the Americas, a further nine million died during the hunting, loading and transportation. In other words, only one tenth of those who were hunted survived and actually reached the Americas, where they found no rest or relief, rather they were subjected to hard labour and torture.

At that time, they had laws which any wise person would be ashamed of.

Among these evil laws were those which said that any slave who transgressed against his master was to be killed, and any slave who ran away was to have his hands and feet cut off, and he was to be branded with hot iron; if he ran away again, he was to be killed. How could he run away if his hands and feet had been cut off?!

It was forbidden for a black man to become educated, and the jobs of whites were forbidden to coloureds.

In America, if seven black people gathered together, that was regarded as a crime, and if a white man passed by them it was permissible for him to spit at them and give them twenty lashes.

Another law stated that the blacks had no soul and that they possessed no smartness, intelligence or willpower, and that life existed only in their arms.

To sum up, with regard to his duties and service to his master, the slave was regarded as sane, responsible and punishable if he fell short, but with regard to his rights, he had no soul and no being, and he was not more than a strong pair of arms!

Finally, after many centuries of enslavement and oppression, there came the protocol to abolish slavery and strive to put an end to it, in a resolution issued by the United Nations in 1953 CE.

Hence their consciences did not awaken until the last century, after they had built their civilization on the corpses of free men whom they had enslaved unlawfully. What fair-minded person can compare this with the teachings of Islam, which came fourteen hundred years ago? It seems that accusing Islam with regard to this topic is like the saying, “She accused me of her problem then walked away.”

And Allaah knows best.

See: Shubahaat Hawl al-Islam by Muhammad Qutub; Talbees Mardood fi Qadaaya Khateerah by Shaykh Dr. Saalih ibn Humayd, the Imam of the Haram in Makkah.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/94840/slavery
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burdenofbeing
04-23-2009, 07:06 PM
Nooo! Wall of text!
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
Nooo! Wall of text!
??? what do u mean
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burdenofbeing
04-23-2009, 07:11 PM
just pulling your leg :P
I'm not on good terms with very long unformatted texts on forums. : /
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Thinker
04-23-2009, 07:17 PM
Cut and pasted with such skill!!
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Sahabiyaat
04-23-2009, 07:25 PM
oops i accidently clicked the 1st option! :-[ i was meant2 disagree.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
just pulling your leg :P
I'm not on good terms with very long unformatted texts on forums. : /
:) its ok no worries
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Cut and pasted with such skill!!
Yes why thank you now read it and the source is at the bottom you can check it out :)
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Uthman
04-23-2009, 08:04 PM
Hi Thinker,
Originally Posted by Thinker
Cut and pasted with such skill!!
If you have any objections to the points in the article which was 'cut and pasted', you are quite free to bring them forth as and where appropriate. :)
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glo
04-23-2009, 08:15 PM
I cannot believe that there are people who have voted anything other than a clear 'No!' ...

Surely this is some kind of joke? :?
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Uthman
04-23-2009, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I cannot believe that there are people who have voted anything other than a clear 'No!' ...

Surely this is some kind of joke? :?
What comes to mind when you think of slavery in terms of treatment? :)
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I cannot believe that there are people who have voted anything other than a clear 'No!' ...

Surely this is some kind of joke? :?
read post number 12 :)
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Tony
04-23-2009, 08:49 PM
Barclays and lloyds (prob others too) and diamond industry were all forged from slavery, are we wrong to bank with them or wear jewelery ? Domestic slavery also exsists whether it be as a result of abusive relationships or choice. I think that there are many mitigating points to consider when discussing right or wrongs of slavery that maybe we should break topic down and discuss individually. I also think that whole countries are enslaved to other countries to some extent, whether it be with the supply of oil or under seige or exploiting the work force of other nations. I think AoP has touched on a valid, if somewhat complicated subject
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
just pulling your leg :P
I'm not on good terms with very long unformatted texts on forums. : /
Hahah yeah man I feel that.

@ umar this will take me a bit...
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2009, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Hahah yeah man I feel that.

@ umar this will take me a bit...
sure read it tyt :)
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rk9414
04-23-2009, 09:23 PM
I wonder whether the penal system is really that far removed from slavery? hmmm...
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burdenofbeing
04-24-2009, 05:36 AM
I think this is somewhat like polygamy. Nature of the issue is highly based on circumstances. Also like polygamy, it is also strongly regulated, but still available as an option. And like how staying away from polygamy is usually better for us, staying away from slavery is usually better for us as well.
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Dawud_uk
04-24-2009, 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by glo
I cannot believe that there are people who have voted anything other than a clear 'No!' ...

Surely this is some kind of joke? :?
glo, i didnt vote no the reason being is i accept islam totally.

now the slavery allowed in the Quran and Sunnah is not like that imagined in the west who still suffer the scars in their society from the slavery they carried out (think of the US and divide between blacks and whites still).

so do i accept islam as part of islam, yes it is part of my deen. but when i say slavery it is probably something in concept and actions very different from what the questioner thinks of it.
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Thinker
04-24-2009, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
so do i accept islam as part of islam, yes it is part of my deen. but when i say slavery it is probably something in concept and actions very different from what the questioner thinks of it.
How is it different?
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Thinker
04-24-2009, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Hi Thinker, If you have any objections to the points in the article which was 'cut and pasted', you are quite free to bring them forth as and where appropriate. :)
Greetings Osman,

Cut and paste – I don’t want to make an issue out of it, just thought it was a bit lazy.

With regard to the text that was pasted I don’t have any argument with the content of the piece, the author goes into great (factual) detail on the history of slavery in Islam and slavery elsewhere. My problem is that I have now read it twice and it’s not absolutely clear to me whether he believes that slavery in 21C Islam allowed or not allowed.

With regards to my comment on ‘cut and paste,’ I try to cut and paste the key paragraph and then provide the link so that I have done the work for those who just want to get to the key point and others who want to read more can. If the question here had been ‘what is the history or slavery in Islam’ I would not have commented on the cut and paste but that’s not the question.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-25-2009, 02:48 AM
^^^ thinker i dont mind you comment one bit :) comment all you want
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Dawud_uk
04-25-2009, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
How is it different?
hi thinker,

if i ever went in the path of Allah and was given a slave from the spoils of war then islam commands me to treat this slave kindly and justly.

i cannot hit him on the face, i must dress them in the same standard of clothes i wear, feed him the same food, give him a bed and room simular to my own, and work him no more than i work myself.

yes he is a slave as he is 'owned' and in this it is simular to the slavery of the west, but only in this respect, in everything else it is totally different, subhanallah even if i hit a slave unjustly they have a right of complaint to the qadi (islamic judge) who if they feel it was unjust can order their freedom.

now you may or may not agree with the principle of slavery but it is part of the deen of islam which i accept absolutely as it is from the Quran and Sunnah and therefore no muslim if he / she understands it is from the Quran and Sunnah should question this.
Reply

wth1257
04-25-2009, 07:08 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
hi thinker,

if i ever went in the path of Allah and was given a slave from the spoils of war then islam commands me to treat this slave kindly and justly.

i cannot hit him on the face, i must dress them in the same standard of clothes i wear, feed him the same food, give him a bed and room simular to my own, and work him no more than i work myself.

yes he is a slave as he is 'owned' and in this it is simular to the slavery of the west, but only in this respect, in everything else it is totally different, subhanallah even if i hit a slave unjustly they have a right of complaint to the qadi (islamic judge) who if they feel it was unjust can order their freedom.

now you may or may not agree with the principle of slavery but it is part of the deen of islam which i accept absolutely as it is from the Quran and Sunnah and therefore no muslim if he / she understands it is from the Quran and Sunnah should question this.
Doesn't the Qur'an imply that the most rightous thing to do is free the slave, but if you cannot then at the minimum you must treat him like your brother?

I was wondering if you could clear up concubinage in Islam for me? Is it allowed? Is the owner of a female slave allowed to force himself sexually upon here even if she is not a Muslim female slave?

I know that's often a polemic against Islam but I'm not trying to entrap you or anything, I just want to know your understanding of it.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-25-2009, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by wth1257
Doesn't the Qur'an imply that the most rightous thing to do is free the slave, but if you cannot then at the minimum you must treat him like your brother?

I was wondering if you could clear up concubinage in Islam for me? Is it allowed? Is the owner of a female slave allowed to force himself sexually upon here even if she is not a Muslim female slave?

I know that's often a polemic against Islam but I'm not trying to entrap you or anything, I just want to know your understanding of it.
it is a righteous act to free a slave, yes. but it is not quite how you put it, it is a righteous act but it is not wrong to keep a slave. slight difference but the difference is there.

regarding female slaves, as i understand it they cannot be forced as that would imply unjust violence but there are other opinions regarding this.

as i understand it it is like a man's wife cannot be forced, but she is sinful for refusing (as would the husband be if he refused his wife).
Reply

wth1257
04-25-2009, 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
it is a righteous act to free a slave, yes. but it is not quite how you put it, it is a righteous act but it is not wrong to keep a slave. slight difference but the difference is there.
Right, sorry.

regarding female slaves, as i understand it they cannot be forced as that would imply unjust violence but there are other opinions regarding this.

as i understand it it is like a man's wife cannot be forced, but she is sinful for refusing (as would the husband be if he refused his wife).

Is it always a sin for her to refuse? What if she were sick or something along those lines?
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-25-2009, 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by wth1257
Is it always a sin for her to refuse? What if she were sick or something along those lines?
then its perfectly fine for her to refuse, just as it is for the wife (or husband for that matter).
Reply

hopeful19
05-10-2009, 09:31 PM
I agree that islamic slavery is far different, it is much like a penal system, difference in slavery in Islam, is the slave often brings it upon himself by acts, not forced so to speak. If everyone lives their life accordingly, there would be no slaves, just like if everyone abids the law, we would have no prisons.
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Yanal
05-10-2009, 09:41 PM
What do those two words mean?<_<
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Whatsthepoint
05-10-2009, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by hopeful19
I agree that islamic slavery is far different, it is much like a penal system, difference in slavery in Islam, is the slave often brings it upon himself by acts, not forced so to speak. If everyone lives their life accordingly, there would be no slaves, just like if everyone abids the law, we would have no prisons.
Children of slaves are also slaves and prisoners of war can be made slaves, regardless of whether they had a choice to wage war against Muslims or not. I'm not sure about the last bit though.
Reply

yusuf18
05-10-2009, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
it is a righteous act to free a slave, yes. but it is not quite how you put it, it is a righteous act but it is not wrong to keep a slave. slight difference but the difference is there.

regarding female slaves, as i understand it they cannot be forced as that would imply unjust violence but there are other opinions regarding this.

as i understand it it is like a man's wife cannot be forced, but she is sinful for refusing (as would the husband be if he refused his wife).
brother regarding the female slaves even if they dont want to sleep with their master they have to rember they were taken as capitive so they have a choise of haveing their heads cut of or be the masters sex slave
Reply

hopeful19
05-10-2009, 09:48 PM
Whatsthepoint, good that your brought up the issue of children of slaves for sure
Reply

Yanal
05-10-2009, 09:55 PM
Child slavery is used in poor countries such as India. The movie Slumdog millionaire explains it that ,rich people spend a few dollars and treat the kids nicely and take their eyes out and sell them for money.
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