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atif_hussain
04-26-2009, 08:12 PM
:sl: brothers and sisters!

ever since i was little i have been told and have been kissing my thumbs and touching my eyes whenever the prophet name is said or recited.
u will see this mostly with the adhaan when they say ash haa du anna muhamadurasuullulaa..

is there any hadith for this? i have asked my parents but they get upset about it etc saying im turnin into a ****** LOOOL!!! may allah bless my parents..

another thing is is about jumraat (thursday evening), yes i made a thread about this before but what i want to know is, when i meant by praying on thursday evening i meant as in cooking food on thursday evening and reading dua over it etc!
my mum use to cook halwa or kheer and then my dad use 2 read dua.
is this wrong? i myself have stopped doing it as i think myself this is wrong as you are singling out this day.

while we are on the subject on jumraat may i also ask one last question and that is about khatam..
my grandparents have passed away and every year my family calls the imam and he does a dua for them etc!
is this also allowed?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 08:48 PM
wa alakum asalam
"Beware of matters newly begun, for every matter newly begun is innovation, every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in hell."
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/864/
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/10843/
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doorster
04-26-2009, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
wa alakum asalam
"Beware of matters newly begun, for every matter newly begun is innovation, every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in hell."
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/864/
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/10843/
why not post more than one mazhabs view on this or any other matter? if all four are correct then you've just "proved" that Shafi'is are innovators, by quoting just from *W* sect

after all this is supposed to be an Islamic forum (inclusive of 4 mazahib) not just an Islamqa mouthpiece!
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Zafran
04-26-2009, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
why not post more than one mazhabs view on this or any other matter? if all four are correct then you've just "proved" that Shafi'is are innovators, by quoting just from *W* sect

after all this is supposed to be an Islamic forum (inclusive of 4 mazahib) not just an Islamqa mouthpiece!
salaam

good point but most people dont actually bother with the 4 madhabs opnions. These days, pity realy.

peace,
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Uthman
04-26-2009, 09:07 PM
In his book Dua:The Weapon of the Believer, Sheikh Yasir Qadhi states that this is an innovation.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 09:11 PM
Have you read them akhi
Sh. Uthaymeen Fataawa (i.e, rulings/verdicts) are based on the Manhaj of Ahlu Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah which is evidenced from Qur'an and Sunnah. He has about fifty compilations to his credit.
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doorster
04-26-2009, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
In his book Dua:The Weapon of the Believer, Sheikh Yasir Qadhi states that this is an innovation.
^^ so where does that leave the mantra of "all 4 mazahib are equally correct"?
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Have you read them akhi
Sh. Uthaymeen Fataawa (i.e, rulings/verdicts) are based on the Manhaj of Ahlu Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah which is evidenced from Qur'an and Sunnah. He has about fifty compilations to his credit.
so wahbis are the only ones who are on correct manhaj? ok thanx muchly
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
In his book Dua:The Weapon of the Believer, Sheikh Yasir Qadhi states that this is an innovation.
the book or something they said in the book is innovation
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
^^ so where does that leave the mantra of "all 4 mazahib are equally correct"?
so wahbis are the only ones who are on correct manhaj? ok thanx muchly
why do you call them wahbis and what is a wahbis akhi we should be carful of what we say;)
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 09:33 PM
Doorsters do you think it is right to label this great scholars such as shaikh Uthaymeen, shaykh bin Baaz raheemahullah, shaykh Al-Albaani raheemahullah wahbis is ok akhi? what does wahbis mean Akhi we must follow the evidence and give it priority over the views of all people.
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doorster
04-26-2009, 10:11 PM
if you think they are infallible, then are you not on the verge of man-worship?

P.S. have you any knowledge of Islamic history in general and founding of Saudi Arabia in particular?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 10:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
if you think they are infallible, then are you not on the verge of man-worship?
no akhi they are not infallible all sons of adam sin and are not perfect but they are respected scholars and the scholars of this ummah and a Muslim is obliged to accept the teachings of Islam, and act upon them. When he hears of some word or deed which is based on evidence (daleel) from the Qur’aan or Sunnah,
and this scholars bring that yes there are some fatwas others dont agree one but who are you to call them wahbi who are you to talk bad about this great scholars? May Allah forgive us Ameen'
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-26-2009, 10:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
why not post more than one mazhabs view on this or any other matter? if all four are correct then you've just "proved" that Shafi'is are innovators, by quoting just from *W* sect

after all this is supposed to be an Islamic forum (inclusive of 4 mazahib) not just an Islamqa mouthpiece!
Can you clarify what you mean here? I didn't get it?
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 10:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster

P.S. have you any knowledge of Islamic history in general and founding of Saudi Arabia in particular?
what does that matter what does that have to do with talking about a great scholar
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atif_hussain
04-26-2009, 10:44 PM
brothers none of yall are helping..
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-26-2009, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by atif_hussain
brothers none of yall are helping..
if the prophet didnt do it or the rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon) then it shouldnt be done i havent seen or heard that we should kiss on our thumb and wipe it on their eye and to make a day a special day that is a bidah the prophet said in his last sermon i have completed your deen

the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said:

“I urge you to adhere to my way (Sunnah) and the way of the rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon) who come after me. Hold fast to it and bite onto it with your eyeteeth [i.e., cling firmly to it], and beware of newly-invented matters.”
Allah Knows best
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chacha_jalebi
04-26-2009, 11:01 PM
lol on topic:blind:

i never thought there would be a day i would bring a thread on topic :D but hooray

basically bro hussain, it is a innovation, the whole story evolves from a narration which many a scholar, have said is a weak narration and even if it was a strong narration it was only for that time and scenario, what happen was Hadhrat Abu Bakr (ra) saw the Prophet (Saw) reflection in his thumbnails, and he kissed them, because he saw the Prophet (saw) reflection in them,

NOW in todays time, we unfortunately dont see the Prophet (saw) let alone his reflection, so kissin the thumbs now is pointless, and also they kiss their thumbs when they hear "Ashadu ana muhammadur rasoolAllah" in the adhaan, which has got nothin to do with anythin, its not narrated that any sahabi kissed their thumbs after they heard the Prophets (Saw) name so why should we do it:D

thats me two cents
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atif_hussain
04-27-2009, 09:41 AM
thx bros...
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Uthman
04-27-2009, 09:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
the book or something they said in the book is innovation
Sheikh Yasir Qadhi wrote a book called Dua:The Weapon of the believer. In this book, he informs us that kissing of thumbs is an innovation and its basis is a fabricated hadith with an Isnad full of unknown names narrating on the authority of Khidr (who lived thousands of years before the time of Muhammad!). :)

I haven't visited your link, so maybe it says the same thing.
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Uthman
04-30-2009, 04:46 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaykum akhee
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
^^ so where does that leave the mantra of "all 4 mazahib are equally correct"?
Do the 'Ulema tell us that all 4 Madhabib are always equally correct? I'm not sure about that - please clarify Inshaa'Allah.

I just want to mention that Imaam As-Shaafi'ee said:
My opinion is correct with the possibility of being wrong and the opinion of my opponents are wrong with the possibility of being correct.
I think that's a very healthy attitude for us all to have Inshaa'Allah. :)

I believe one of the Madhabib also told us that, if we found anything they said to be in contradiction with the Qur'an or Sunnah, then we should leave what they have said. I can't remember which one it was who said this.

:w:
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Zafran
04-30-2009, 11:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
As-salaamu 'Alaykum akhee Do the 'Ulema tell us that all 4 Madhabib are always equally correct? I'm not sure about that - please clarify Inshaa'Allah.

I just want to mention that Imaam As-Shaafi'ee said:
My opinion is correct with the possibility of being wrong and the opinion of my opponents are wrong with the possibility of being correct.
I think that's a very healthy attitude for us all to have Inshaa'Allah. :)

I believe one of the Madhabib also told us that, if we found anything they said to be in contradiction with the Qur'an or Sunnah, then we should leave what they have said. I can't remember which one it was who said this.

:w:

Salaam

The 4 Madhabs are not just based on one scholar but a chain of scholars who have checked and re-checked the methodology of the madhab in extracting rulings from the Quran and sunnah - its how the muslim scholars have worked for over 1000 years. The difference are not that much between them - but it depends on how they interpret the Quran and sunnah.

They can be equally correct due to the hadith about Asr prayer - where the prophet told the sahaba to pary asr when the reached the city - some prayed on time whilst others prayed when they went into the city - there was a difference but when they asked the prophet of God he said they were both right :) - it would be good if someone would give us a reference for this its preety famous.

Ofcourse the sahaba had varied opinions too.

peace
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AbuSalahudeen
04-30-2009, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
why not post more than one mazhabs view on this or any other matter? if all four are correct then you've just "proved" that Shafi'is are innovators, by quoting just from *W* sect

after all this is supposed to be an Islamic forum (inclusive of 4 mazahib) not just an Islamqa mouthpiece!
First of all akhi there are more than just 4 Ma'athab, there were orginally 6 main Mathabs, but the rest died out. First of all, all 4 Imams of the famous Mathabs agreed that Bida is wrong, a they warned against it. All four Imams came to an opinion based upon the resources that were available to them (Hadeeth, opinions of the Sahaba, Tabi'een, Qiyaas etc), and they used these things to come to an opinion. Through out there lives they often changed their opinion when evidence or new information was brought to them that was not there before. For example Imam Abu Hanifa's main student Imam Muhammad Ibn Hassan differed in over 50% of his teacher Imam Abu Hanifa in Fiqhee Matters. There is nothing wrong with following a Mathab, but there is something wrong when you follow blindly, and closing your heart to opinions that have much stronger bases. Me personally I follow mostly Hanbalee Mathabs rulings, but when I come across a correct hadeeth that is stronger I take the Hadeeth over the opinion I follow.

I don't think this is a issue of Fiqh, its a matter of Aqeeda and belief, so if you believe this is a Islamic practise please come forward with the daleel and references inshallah.

Its funny when the *W* word is used against people who call against Bidah in our Deen, and claim these people have no idea what the Imams of the Mathahabs opinions were, because majority of the Salafis follow 98% of Hanbalee Fiqh. Hanbalee fiqh is the Fiqh used in the courts, along with the Hanbalee fiqh books like Ummdatul Fiqh and Zaad Mustagnee which are hanbalee fiqh books which are taught in schools.
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AbuSalahudeen
04-30-2009, 04:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
if you think they are infallible, then are you not on the verge of man-worship?

P.S. have you any knowledge of Islamic history in general and founding of Saudi Arabia in particular?
I think you are contradicting your self big time akhi, are you not the one calling to the following of only the 4 Imams? were they not just men? are they infallible? are you practising man-worship?+
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Zafran
04-30-2009, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnuFarah
I think you are contradicting your self big time akhi, are you not the one calling to the following of only the 4 Imams? were they not just men? are they infallible? are you practising man-worship?+
Salaam

no the 4 madhab are not just the work of a single scholar but it is a school of thought with many scholars checking and rechecking the opinion or the ruling of the scholar from Quran and sunnah. You follow a madhab because its a specifc methodology in extracting information from Quran and sunnah with unbroken chain of Qualified scholarship.

As most of us are not specilaised in the deen eg a mujtahid then we follow a specific school of thought.
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AbuSalahudeen
04-30-2009, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Salaam

no the 4 madhab are not just the wrok of a single scholar but it is a school of thought with many scholars checking and rechecking the opinion or the ruling of the scholar from Quran and sunnah. You follow a madhab because its a specifc methodology in extracting information from Quran and sunnah with unbroken chain of Qualified scholarship.

As most of us are not specilaised in the deen eg a mujtahid then we follow a specific school of thought.
In that case why did Abu Hanifas main students differ with him on over half of his rulings?

And we know the main books of Hadeeth were compiled after the deaths of the 4 Imams of Fiqh, so there are many Hadeeth they were not aware of, that would effected there rulings.

When a large group of scholars of Hadeeth tell you this or that Hadeeth is weak or Mowduu, and they say as a group this one is more authentic, you don't need to be a grandmufti to understand that.
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Yanal
05-01-2009, 01:00 AM
Kissing the Thumbs, etc. during Adhan?
I hope that you are well and in good health with the grace of Allah Ta'allah. I spoke to you in the Mosque yesterday after your kutba, my name is [xyz].

I would like to know whether kissing the thumbs and putting them on your eyes on hearing the Prophet Muhammad (blessing and peace of Allah be upon him and his family) in the azan has any basis according to Shafi mazhab? I have read that it is not aloud, but i have read that there is a Hadith about Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be please with him) doing this action and the Prophet (blessing and peace of Allah be upon him and his family) saying follow my companions sunnah. According to the literature this Ahadith is not authentic (weak), can you enlight me on this subject. I follow Hanafi mazhab but I want to hear your answer on this subject coz your neutral because your a Shafi teacher I want to know what the ruling is in Shafi mazhab.

Allah Hafiz


Ma sha' Allah, Rabbi zidni 'ilman!

In fiqh, the discussion of taqbil al-unbulatayn wa mash al-'aynayn is usually found at the end of Bab Adhan. Certain gestures performed during the adhan, and specifically the 'amal of kissing the thumbs and wiping the eye, are something known to Shafi'is, and there can be no objection whatsoever by our jurists (and any jurists for that matter) to those wishing to perform this 'amal: as far as we are concerned, it is classified under the category of the Fada'il al-A'mal [I'anat, 1:243; al-Jurdani, Fath al-'Allam, 2:140-1].

Among its legal bases ['ilal] is that it is a Sunna of the first Khalifa of the Messenger of Allah (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him!) [i.e., an Athar of the first Khalifa], and it is also based on a number of Hadiths, of which the most well known is the Hadith of Abu Bakr (may Allah be well pleased with him!):

lammA sami'a qawla l-mu'adhdhini ashhadu anna MuHammadan rasUluLlAhi qAla hAdhA wa qabbila bATina l-unmulatayni l-sabbAbatayni wa masaHa 'aynayhi fa-qAla SallaLlAhu 'alayhi wa sallama man fa'ala mithla khalIlI faqad Hallat 'alayhi shafA'atI [Whenever he [Abu Bakr] heard the Mu'addhin say: "I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah", he would repeat this [phrase as it is the Mandub of Adhan] and would kiss the tip of the index fingers [or thumbs] and wipe his eyes. The Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him!) said: whosoever does what my friend [i.e., Abu Bakr] did, my intercession will come down upon him] (Related by al-Daylami, with variants).

Almost all of the Muhaddith consider this and other Hadiths like it to be weak [Da'if] (at its lowest level, a Marfu' Hadith [something ascribed to the Prophet]; and it is because the Hadith is Da'if that the 'amal is counted among the Fada'il, and not the confirmed Sunna!). Nevertheless, this is definitely not a fabricated Hadith [Mawdu'], and weak Hadiths are not and cannot be considered as false and lies. Furthermore, as Sayyid 'Alawi al-Maliki (may Allah be pleased with him!) reported in his dedicated treatise on the rules concerning the use of weak Hadiths, the Manhal Latif, that scholars of the four law-schools [madhhab] concurred by Ijma' [Consensus]--and that this Ijma' was recorded from the time of the Mujtahid Imam, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (may Allah be well pleased with him!) until now--that any Hadith which are Da'if (as long as it is not Mawdu'), can be acted upon for the Fada'il al-A'mal ['Alawi al-Maliki, Manhal, 251-253]. Literally, "Fada'il al-A'mal" means 'extra works'; but technically it means the extra acts of devotion performed, or refrained from, beyond one's call of duty in order to please the Lawmaker, that is, an 'amal that can lead to it's being classed either as recommended [i.e., Mandub/Sunna/Mustahabb] or disliked [Makruh] but never Wajib [obligatory] or Haram [prohibited]. In this mas'ala, of course, it is a recommended act (and not Makruh).

Know that he who blames others--in the name of bid'a--for carrying out an 'amal, saying that it is based on a weak Hadith or that the 'amal is not based on an authentic Hadith, shows a sign that he may not be a trained faqih (whether he is called a Mufti/Shaykh/Mawlana or not); and that he probably has knowledge only of the literal Arabic but not a deep understanding of what is beyond the text, which is what the jurist is expected to know. In the old days, when scholarship was taken for granted (because scholastic 'alims were many and accessible then), even the public knew that a weak Hadith can form the basis of an 'amal. Imam al-Nawawi (may Allah be pleased with him!), in his popular work the Adhkar, says:

"The specialists of Hadiths [i.e., Muhaddith] and the jurists [Fuqaha'] and other (scholars) have said that one is permitted, and in fact is recommended, to use weak Hadith in matters of 'extra acts of devotion' [Fada'il] and in 'arousing one's desire to do good and inspiring one's fear from doing evil' [Targhib wa al-Tarhib]--as long as it is not a fabricated Hadith. As for the legal rulings pertaining to what is lawful and unlawful [al-Halal wa al-Haram], buying and selling, marriage and divorce, and others like it [because all of them involve either an injunctive legal ruling [Hukm Shar'i Taklifi] (such as Haram and Wajib) or a stipulatory legal ruling [Hukm Shar'i Wad'i] (such as Shart and Mani')] are concerned, one can only use a rigorously authenticated Hadith [Sahih] or a well authenticated Hadith [Hasan], except if a precautionary ruling [Ihtiyat] is [involved] in some matter relating to one of them. So, if a weak Hadith is found to object against some types of sales or some form of marriages, then it is recommended to avoid it (i.e., the sale or the marriage) even when it is not obligatory to do so [and even when the sale or the marriage is legally valid]." [al-Nawawi, Adhkar, 7-8]

I am not a Hanafi scholar (from whom you should really be asking your fiqhi/furu' questions), but classical Hanafi reference texts such as those of the Muhaqqiq of your school, Ibn 'Abidin (and in spite the fact that he knew this 'amal is based on weak Hadiths, he nevertheless) relates the opinion that this 'amal is permissible and even Mustahabb, that is, the act when done will entail a reward. [Ibn 'Abidin, Hashiya, 2:84-5]. In practice, apart from the Hanafis, some Shafi'i communities have inherited this 'amal, and among the Malikis, those who are in the Sudan.

###Qa'ida### To this end, we could sum up a point of law tersely in the following maxim: al-'amalu bi-r-riDA yanfI l-Hurmata [an act that is consented to, prevents prohibition].
What I mean by this qa'ida is that once something has been accepted by some of the mustahiqq, in this case, the scholars and the public alike, no one has any right [haqq] to object to it.

So do not be swayed by what you read if Muslims have been doing this in the past and are still doing this fadila 'amal. If there are others who blame you for carrying on with this inherited 'amal, then know that the person, apart from wasting his precious time, knows not how to leave alone what does not concern him [tark ma la ya'nih] where his time could be better spent in improving the lot of the Muslims today or benefiting others in this world. Not only does he not know how to mind his own business, but he has no right whatsoever to censure [Ihtisab] you in the first place (and by not tolerating and by criticizing you on this, he himself is transgressing a well known rule of Bab Amr bi-l-Ma'ruf wa Nahi 'an al-Munkar [roughly speaking, the duty of a Muslim to intervene when another is acting wrongly]: that the duty has no application in matters over which the fuqaha' differed, thereby making himself liable for others to advise him). Furthermore, what is more embarrassing is that there is no legal basis ['illa] and cause [sabab] that warrants a Hisba for this case, or at least no jurist properly schooled will ever entertain the thought. For when others are blamed by a Muhtasib for carrying out this 'amal, it is no different from the case of someone becoming upset at the sight of a pedestrian suddenly stopping to remove a wad of old chewing gum from his path (ponder over this!) or at the very minimum, complaining why a customer is buying only apples and not oranges.

According to Shafi'i jurists, this act is counted among the Fada'il, and there are undeniable benefits for those who wish to take from it and they are means to make one rich in the Next world; and in the same way that the one performing it cannot criticize others for neglecting it, nor can others criticize those who carry on doing it. It is a matter of personal choice (for one's private-but-made-public bank account is no one else's in the Next world) if one wants to take or overlook this Fadila in this world: take it or leave it, no more.

Allahumma aj'alna mina'l-'amilin wa-la taj'alna mina'l-mutakallikim!

[O' Allah! Make us among those who do some work, not among those who can only talk]; Amin!

May this be of benefit.

wa sallallahu 'ala Muhammadin wa 'ala alihi wa sahbihi wa sallam
wa billahi t-tawfiq wa l-hidaya wa l-hamdulillah rabbi l-'alamin.
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Zafran
05-01-2009, 02:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnuFarah
In that case why did Abu Hanifas main students differ with him on over half of his rulings?

And we know the main books of Hadeeth were compiled after the deaths of the 4 Imams of Fiqh, so there are many Hadeeth they were not aware of, that would effected there rulings.

When a large group of scholars of Hadeeth tell you this or that Hadeeth is weak or Mowduu, and they say as a group this one is more authentic, you don't need to be a grandmufti to understand that.
salaam

what you fail to realise is that all 4 scholars and the scholars that followed them were Mujtahids - the students of Abu Hanifa(ra) like Abu Yusuf(ra) who disagreed with him were Mujthaids - they had the capicity and the knowledge to disagree - the difference is nobody carried his work on or methedology. In Islam its common for Mujthaid to disagree just the way the sahaba did about the asr prayer. The prophet clearly said both were right.


ofcourse they being a Mujtahid means memorizing alot of hadiths or has Abdal Hakim Murads article shows the criteria for doing Ijthad is as follows

(a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;

(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;

(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];

(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;

(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;

(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);

(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah;

(h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.

source - http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/newmadhh.htm

and about Hadiths - yes if large number of scholars say the hadith is weak - then by Ijma we follow the scholars - but as i said the opinion of the school of thought is checked and rechecked by the scholars that follow that school of thought.

Unless others reach the level of of mujtahid and the meet the criteria as stated above they have to follow a school of thought - makes sense as

1 - we dont want confusion or ignorant people messing around with the deen.
2 - not everybody has the time to be a mujtahid or will ever be qualified to do Ijthad as not everyone can become scholars in a balanced Islamic society. There are also other fields like medicine, teaching, military etc that people have to take part in.

Even some scholars that reached Mujthaid still stayed in the school of thought they were in before.

hope that helps

May Allah bless you

peace
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-01-2009, 02:11 AM
:sl:

I had written a post a while back that I hope will be of some benefit here Insha'Allaah:

http://www.islamicboard.com/1039200-post47.html

As I stated there, I'll repeat it a portion from it here:
So personally, I've found the following beneficial. i) Avoiding arguments about these issues. ii) Finding a scholar that I trust, who has learned fiqh traditionally via a madhab, and asking him my questions, because to me at the end of the day, that is me fulfilling the obligations Allaah has placed upon me ('Ask the people of knowledge if you do not know'). After all, the madhab of the layman is the madhab of the scholar he refers to. I've found this to be balance between the two extremes. I might also add, this position (of following a madhab not being wajib, but asking a scholar that one trusts) is supported by many of the previous scholars such as Imam an-Nawawi, Ibn Qawan al-Shafi’i, Mulla ‘Ali al-Qari al-Hanafi, Ibn al-Humam al-Hanafi, and even some of the recent scholars such as Shaykh ‘Abdul-Fattah Abu Ghuddah (rahimullah) held this opinion.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Salaam

The 4 Madhabs are not just based on one scholar but a chain of scholars who have checked and re-checked the methodology of the madhab in extracting rulings from the Quran and sunnah - its how the muslim scholars have worked for over 1000 years. The difference are not that much between them - but it depends on how they interpret the Quran and sunnah.

They can be equally correct due to the hadith about Asr prayer - where the prophet told the sahaba to pary asr when the reached the city - some prayed on time whilst others prayed when they went into the city - there was a difference but when they asked the prophet of God he said they were both right :) - it would be good if someone would give us a reference for this its preety famous.

Ofcourse the sahaba had varied opinions too.

peace
Akhi, there is a difference between the usool of the madahib being correct and the actual resulting ruling based on application of that usool. Meaning that, sometimes an opinion of another madhab may be stronger and closer to the truth than the opinion in another madhab - the methodology used by each to arrive at the ruling is correct - but the resulting opinion may be weak or strong. Notice, I didn't say valid or invalid, both are valid - but one might be more correct than the other.

format_quote Originally Posted by IbnuFarah
First of all akhi there are more than just 4 Ma'athab, there were orginally 6 main Mathabs, but the rest died out. First of all, all 4 Imams of the famous Mathabs agreed that Bida is wrong, a they warned against it. All four Imams came to an opinion based upon the resources that were available to them (Hadeeth, opinions of the Sahaba, Tabi'een, Qiyaas etc), and they used these things to come to an opinion. Through out there lives they often changed their opinion when evidence or new information was brought to them that was not there before. For example Imam Abu Hanifa's main student Imam Muhammad Ibn Hassan differed in over 50% of his teacher Imam Abu Hanifa in Fiqhee Matters. There is nothing wrong with following a Mathab, but there is something wrong when you follow blindly, and closing your heart to opinions that have much stronger bases. Me personally I follow mostly Hanbalee Mathabs rulings, but when I come across a correct hadeeth that is stronger I take the Hadeeth over the opinion I follow.
Akhi, how can a layman know which opinions are stronger than others? It is quite impossible until he has studied the usool of the madhab, the opinions of the scholars in the madhab itself and examined other madahib as well. A layman simply does not have enough knowledge to decipher the evidences and extract jurisprudential rulings, and evaluate differences all by himself.

To get a glimpse of how intricate the process of deriving rulings is, take a look at this article regarding: 'Why do the Malikis pray with ther Hands to their sides?':

http://www.suhaibwebb.com/blog/gener...ides-part-one/

And this comment:
http://www.suhaibwebb.com/blog/gener...omment-6927537

It's just to give you an insight that these things are not black and white, there are shades of gray.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Salaam

no the 4 madhab are not just the wrok of a single scholar but it is a school of thought with many scholars checking and rechecking the opinion or the ruling of the scholar from Quran and sunnah. You follow a madhab because its a specifc methodology in extracting information from Quran and sunnah with unbroken chain of Qualified scholarship.

As most of us are not specilaised in the deen eg a mujtahid then we follow a specific school of thought.
This is true. If one of the Imaams did not come across a hadeeth, then those that came after him in the same madhab definetly did.

format_quote Originally Posted by IbnuFarah
In that case why did Abu Hanifas main students differ with him on over half of his rulings?

And we know the main books of Hadeeth were compiled after the deaths of the 4 Imams of Fiqh, so there are many Hadeeth they were not aware of, that would effected there rulings.
His students differed with him because they were qualified to do so. They knew Imam Abu Hanifa's methodology and when they learnt something new they would apply it using the Hanafi usool. So when something in the hanafi usool dictated that an opinion be changed, it would be, and vice versa.

When a large group of scholars of Hadeeth tell you this or that Hadeeth is weak or Mowduu, and they say as a group this one is more authentic, you don't need to be a grandmufti to understand that.
But you need to have a certain amount of knowledge before you can give out rulings based on that hadeeth. What should one do when he comes across two ahadeeth that are apparently in contradiction to each other?

I believe one of the Madhabib also told us that, if we found anything they said to be in contradiction with the Qur'an or Sunnah, then we should leave what they have said. I can't remember which one it was who said this.
These sort of statements from the Imaams are not directed at the laymen, but towards their students. In the post I linked to above:
They were intended for the students of the Imaams who maybe werent completely Mujtahid Mutlaq but were knowledgeable enough to decipher the evidences and extract jurisprudential rulings on their own and evaluate differences. In explaining this position, Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah says: “[Imam Ahmad] would order the layman to ask (yustafti) Ishaq, Abu ‘Ubaid, Abu Thawr, Abu Mus’ab, whilst he would forbid the scholars from his followers, such as Abu Dawud (the compiler of Sunan), ‘Uthman ibn Sa’id, Ibrahim al-Harbi, Abu Bakr al-Athram, Abu Zur’ah, Abu Hatim al-Sajistani, Muslim (the compiler of Sahih) and others, from making Taqleed of anyone from the scholars. He would say to them: You must refer to the sources, to the Book and the Sunnah.”

See al-Manhaj 373-376, al-Tahqiqat 643-645, Majmu’ah 20/116, 124-126, al-Mustadrak 2/241, 258, al-Furu’ 6/492, al-Insaf 11/147, I’lam 6/203-205, Mukhtasar al-Tahrir 103, Hal al-Muslim Mulzam… 14, Rawdhat al-Talibin 11/117, Usul al-Fiqh al-Islami 2/1166
Reply

Zafran
05-01-2009, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Kissing the Thumbs, etc. during Adhan?
I hope that you are well and in good health with the grace of Allah Ta'allah. I spoke to you in the Mosque yesterday after your kutba, my name is [xyz].

I would like to know whether kissing the thumbs and putting them on your eyes on hearing the Prophet Muhammad (blessing and peace of Allah be upon him and his family) in the azan has any basis according to Shafi mazhab? I have read that it is not aloud, but i have read that there is a Hadith about Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be please with him) doing this action and the Prophet (blessing and peace of Allah be upon him and his family) saying follow my companions sunnah. According to the literature this Ahadith is not authentic (weak), can you enlight me on this subject. I follow Hanafi mazhab but I want to hear your answer on this subject coz your neutral because your a Shafi teacher I want to know what the ruling is in Shafi mazhab.

Allah Hafiz


Ma sha' Allah, Rabbi zidni 'ilman!

In fiqh, the discussion of taqbil al-unbulatayn wa mash al-'aynayn is usually found at the end of Bab Adhan. Certain gestures performed during the adhan, and specifically the 'amal of kissing the thumbs and wiping the eye, are something known to Shafi'is, and there can be no objection whatsoever by our jurists (and any jurists for that matter) to those wishing to perform this 'amal: as far as we are concerned, it is classified under the category of the Fada'il al-A'mal [I'anat, 1:243; al-Jurdani, Fath al-'Allam, 2:140-1].

Among its legal bases ['ilal] is that it is a Sunna of the first Khalifa of the Messenger of Allah (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him!) [i.e., an Athar of the first Khalifa], and it is also based on a number of Hadiths, of which the most well known is the Hadith of Abu Bakr (may Allah be well pleased with him!):

lammA sami'a qawla l-mu'adhdhini ashhadu anna MuHammadan rasUluLlAhi qAla hAdhA wa qabbila bATina l-unmulatayni l-sabbAbatayni wa masaHa 'aynayhi fa-qAla SallaLlAhu 'alayhi wa sallama man fa'ala mithla khalIlI faqad Hallat 'alayhi shafA'atI [Whenever he [Abu Bakr] heard the Mu'addhin say: "I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah", he would repeat this [phrase as it is the Mandub of Adhan] and would kiss the tip of the index fingers [or thumbs] and wipe his eyes. The Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him!) said: whosoever does what my friend [i.e., Abu Bakr] did, my intercession will come down upon him] (Related by al-Daylami, with variants).

Almost all of the Muhaddith consider this and other Hadiths like it to be weak [Da'if] (at its lowest level, a Marfu' Hadith [something ascribed to the Prophet]; and it is because the Hadith is Da'if that the 'amal is counted among the Fada'il, and not the confirmed Sunna!). Nevertheless, this is definitely not a fabricated Hadith [Mawdu'], and weak Hadiths are not and cannot be considered as false and lies. Furthermore, as Sayyid 'Alawi al-Maliki (may Allah be pleased with him!) reported in his dedicated treatise on the rules concerning the use of weak Hadiths, the Manhal Latif, that scholars of the four law-schools [madhhab] concurred by Ijma' [Consensus]--and that this Ijma' was recorded from the time of the Mujtahid Imam, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (may Allah be well pleased with him!) until now--that any Hadith which are Da'if (as long as it is not Mawdu'), can be acted upon for the Fada'il al-A'mal ['Alawi al-Maliki, Manhal, 251-253]. Literally, "Fada'il al-A'mal" means 'extra works'; but technically it means the extra acts of devotion performed, or refrained from, beyond one's call of duty in order to please the Lawmaker, that is, an 'amal that can lead to it's being classed either as recommended [i.e., Mandub/Sunna/Mustahabb] or disliked [Makruh] but never Wajib [obligatory] or Haram [prohibited]. In this mas'ala, of course, it is a recommended act (and not Makruh).

Know that he who blames others--in the name of bid'a--for carrying out an 'amal, saying that it is based on a weak Hadith or that the 'amal is not based on an authentic Hadith, shows a sign that he may not be a trained faqih (whether he is called a Mufti/Shaykh/Mawlana or not); and that he probably has knowledge only of the literal Arabic but not a deep understanding of what is beyond the text, which is what the jurist is expected to know. In the old days, when scholarship was taken for granted (because scholastic 'alims were many and accessible then), even the public knew that a weak Hadith can form the basis of an 'amal. Imam al-Nawawi (may Allah be pleased with him!), in his popular work the Adhkar, says:

"The specialists of Hadiths [i.e., Muhaddith] and the jurists [Fuqaha'] and other (scholars) have said that one is permitted, and in fact is recommended, to use weak Hadith in matters of 'extra acts of devotion' [Fada'il] and in 'arousing one's desire to do good and inspiring one's fear from doing evil' [Targhib wa al-Tarhib]--as long as it is not a fabricated Hadith. As for the legal rulings pertaining to what is lawful and unlawful [al-Halal wa al-Haram], buying and selling, marriage and divorce, and others like it [because all of them involve either an injunctive legal ruling [Hukm Shar'i Taklifi] (such as Haram and Wajib) or a stipulatory legal ruling [Hukm Shar'i Wad'i] (such as Shart and Mani')] are concerned, one can only use a rigorously authenticated Hadith [Sahih] or a well authenticated Hadith [Hasan], except if a precautionary ruling [Ihtiyat] is [involved] in some matter relating to one of them. So, if a weak Hadith is found to object against some types of sales or some form of marriages, then it is recommended to avoid it (i.e., the sale or the marriage) even when it is not obligatory to do so [and even when the sale or the marriage is legally valid]." [al-Nawawi, Adhkar, 7-8]

I am not a Hanafi scholar (from whom you should really be asking your fiqhi/furu' questions), but classical Hanafi reference texts such as those of the Muhaqqiq of your school, Ibn 'Abidin (and in spite the fact that he knew this 'amal is based on weak Hadiths, he nevertheless) relates the opinion that this 'amal is permissible and even Mustahabb, that is, the act when done will entail a reward. [Ibn 'Abidin, Hashiya, 2:84-5]. In practice, apart from the Hanafis, some Shafi'i communities have inherited this 'amal, and among the Malikis, those who are in the Sudan.

###Qa'ida### To this end, we could sum up a point of law tersely in the following maxim: al-'amalu bi-r-riDA yanfI l-Hurmata [an act that is consented to, prevents prohibition].
What I mean by this qa'ida is that once something has been accepted by some of the mustahiqq, in this case, the scholars and the public alike, no one has any right [haqq] to object to it.

So do not be swayed by what you read if Muslims have been doing this in the past and are still doing this fadila 'amal. If there are others who blame you for carrying on with this inherited 'amal, then know that the person, apart from wasting his precious time, knows not how to leave alone what does not concern him [tark ma la ya'nih] where his time could be better spent in improving the lot of the Muslims today or benefiting others in this world. Not only does he not know how to mind his own business, but he has no right whatsoever to censure [Ihtisab] you in the first place (and by not tolerating and by criticizing you on this, he himself is transgressing a well known rule of Bab Amr bi-l-Ma'ruf wa Nahi 'an al-Munkar [roughly speaking, the duty of a Muslim to intervene when another is acting wrongly]: that the duty has no application in matters over which the fuqaha' differed, thereby making himself liable for others to advise him). Furthermore, what is more embarrassing is that there is no legal basis ['illa] and cause [sabab] that warrants a Hisba for this case, or at least no jurist properly schooled will ever entertain the thought. For when others are blamed by a Muhtasib for carrying out this 'amal, it is no different from the case of someone becoming upset at the sight of a pedestrian suddenly stopping to remove a wad of old chewing gum from his path (ponder over this!) or at the very minimum, complaining why a customer is buying only apples and not oranges.

According to Shafi'i jurists, this act is counted among the Fada'il, and there are undeniable benefits for those who wish to take from it and they are means to make one rich in the Next world; and in the same way that the one performing it cannot criticize others for neglecting it, nor can others criticize those who carry on doing it. It is a matter of personal choice (for one's private-but-made-public bank account is no one else's in the Next world) if one wants to take or overlook this Fadila in this world: take it or leave it, no more.

Allahumma aj'alna mina'l-'amilin wa-la taj'alna mina'l-mutakallikim!

[O' Allah! Make us among those who do some work, not among those who can only talk]; Amin!

May this be of benefit.

wa sallallahu 'ala Muhammadin wa 'ala alihi wa sahbihi wa sallam
wa billahi t-tawfiq wa l-hidaya wa l-hamdulillah rabbi l-'alamin.
salaam

now thats what i call a ruling

thanks

May Allah bless you

peace
Reply

Zafran
05-01-2009, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd al-Rahman
:sl:

I had written a post a while back that I hope will be of some benefit here Insha'Allaah:

http://www.islamicboard.com/1039200-post47.html

As I stated there, I'll repeat it a portion from it here:
So personally, I've found the following beneficial. i) Avoiding arguments about these issues. ii) Finding a scholar that I trust, who has learned fiqh traditionally via a madhab, and asking him my questions, because to me at the end of the day, that is me fulfilling the obligations Allaah has placed upon me ('Ask the people of knowledge if you do not know'). After all, the madhab of the layman is the madhab of the scholar he refers to. I've found this to be balance between the two extremes. I might also add, this position (of following a madhab not being wajib, but asking a scholar that one trusts) is supported by many of the previous scholars such as Imam an-Nawawi, Ibn Qawan al-Shafi’i, Mulla ‘Ali al-Qari al-Hanafi, Ibn al-Humam al-Hanafi, and even some of the recent scholars such as Shaykh ‘Abdul-Fattah Abu Ghuddah (rahimullah) held this opinion.

Akhi, there is a difference between the usool of the madahib being correct and the actual resulting ruling based on application of that usool. Meaning that, sometimes an opinion of another madhab may be stronger and closer to the truth than the opinion in another madhab - the methodology used by each to arrive at the ruling is correct - but the resulting opinion may be weak or strong. Notice, I didn't say valid or invalid, both are valid - but one might be more correct than the other.



Akhi, how can a layman know which opinions are stronger than others? It is quite impossible until he has studied the usool of the madhab, the opinions of the scholars in the madhab itself and examined other madahib as well. A layman simply does not have enough knowledge to decipher the evidences and extract jurisprudential rulings, and evaluate differences all by himself.

To get a glimpse of how intricate the process of deriving rulings is, take a look at this article regarding: 'Why do the Malikis pray with ther Hands to their sides?':

http://www.suhaibwebb.com/blog/gener...ides-part-one/

And this comment:
http://www.suhaibwebb.com/blog/gener...omment-6927537

It's just to give you an insight that these things are not black and white, there are shades of gray.



This is true. If one of the Imaams did not come across a hadeeth, then those that came after him in the same madhab definetly did.



His students differed with him because they were qualified to do so. They knew Imam Abu Hanifa's methodology and when they learnt something new they would apply it using the Hanafi usool. So when something in the hanafi usool dictated that an opinion be changed, it would be, and vice versa.

But you need to have a certain amount of knowledge before you can give out rulings based on that hadeeth. What should one do when he comes across two ahadeeth that are apparently in contradiction to each other?

These sort of statements from the Imaams are not directed at the laymen, but towards their students. In the post I linked to above:
They were intended for the students of the Imaams who maybe werent completely Mujtahid Mutlaq but were knowledgeable enough to decipher the evidences and extract jurisprudential rulings on their own and evaluate differences. In explaining this position, Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah says: “[Imam Ahmad] would order the layman to ask (yustafti) Ishaq, Abu ‘Ubaid, Abu Thawr, Abu Mus’ab, whilst he would forbid the scholars from his followers, such as Abu Dawud (the compiler of Sunan), ‘Uthman ibn Sa’id, Ibrahim al-Harbi, Abu Bakr al-Athram, Abu Zur’ah, Abu Hatim al-Sajistani, Muslim (the compiler of Sahih) and others, from making Taqleed of anyone from the scholars. He would say to them: You must refer to the sources, to the Book and the Sunnah.”

See al-Manhaj 373-376, al-Tahqiqat 643-645, Majmu’ah 20/116, 124-126, al-Mustadrak 2/241, 258, al-Furu’ 6/492, al-Insaf 11/147, I’lam 6/203-205, Mukhtasar al-Tahrir 103, Hal al-Muslim Mulzam… 14, Rawdhat al-Talibin 11/117, Usul al-Fiqh al-Islami 2/1166
salaam

Yes i preety much agree and your right about the Madhab rulings - but as laymens how do we know which is weak and strong - the strong one gets the higher reward whilst the weak ruling although weak is still right even though the reward is less.


Thanks for the links

May Allah bless you Akhi.
peace
Reply

doorster
05-01-2009, 02:45 AM
Salam Alaikum

I am very happy now after having read posts at http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...ml#post1134831 and http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...ml#post1134826 I've begun to like LI again. jazakum Allah khayran!! wa salam :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

Yes i preety much agree and your right about the Madhab rulings - but as laymens how do we know which is weak and strong - the strong one gets the higher reward whilst the weak ruling although weak is still right even though the reward is less.


Thanks for the links

May Allah bless you Akhi.
peace
we do not need to, we respect all four while sticking to our own and we protest when someone attacks one or the other of the 4!
Reply

Zafran
05-01-2009, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
Salam Alaikum

I am very happy now after having read posts at http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...ml#post1134831 and http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...ml#post1134826 I've begun to like LI again. jazakum Allah khayran!! wa salam :)

we do not need to, we respect all four while sticking to our own and we protest when someone attacks one or the other of the 4!
Salaam

I agree akhi:)

May Allah bless you

nice to see LI being plural.
peace
Reply

3isha
05-01-2009, 09:25 PM
as far as i know wen av asked about it, its a form of innovation like pple have mentioned above.
People who practice this, say that Abubakar May Allah be pleased with him did this, but the fact is he saw the noor whilst he was present with the Prophet and so he did it. Also, it is cannot be regarded as a sunnah or a hadith for it was an ACT of a COMPANION, and it is not mentioned in the hadiths nyway.
Reply

Zafran
05-01-2009, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 3isha
as far as i know wen av asked about it, its a form of innovation like pple have mentioned above.
People who practice this, say that Abubakar May Allah be pleased with him did this, but the fact is he saw the noor whilst he was present with the Prophet and so he did it. Also, it is cannot be regarded as a sunnah or a hadith for it was an ACT of a COMPANION, and it is not mentioned in the hadiths nyway.

salaam

Read the fatwa by scholars posted by Yanal -

peace
Reply

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